What a country! Series....The New planned segregation....

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Dec 7, 2001, 11:15:51 AM12/7/01
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Is'nt America Truly Great !!! Litteraly we can do, associate, live,
learn, shop, etc.,with whomever we damed please!


On Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:52:02 GMT, "Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez"
<rodr...@home.com> wrote:

><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>A medida que la poblacion envejece, a medida que la poblacion se torna
>mas diversa, racial y culturalmente, se van trazando nuevas formas de segregacion,
>mas sutiles pero no por eso menos peligrosas.
><p>-------------------
><br>&nbsp;
><p>The growth of private communities
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
>AMERICA'S NEW UTOPIAS
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Private housing associations increasingly
>lay down the laws that
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; middle-class Americans live by. What are they doing
>to the country?
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Dateline: ANTHEM, IRVINE, LEISURE WORLD, SUN CITY AND
>VALENCIA
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; HEAD north out of Phoenix, Arizona, up the 1-17. Drive
>past the signs
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; for Happy Valley Road, Carefree Highway and, less auspiciously,
>one
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; advising you not to pick up hitchhikers because you are
>passing a
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; federal prison. Eventually you come to one for "Anthem
>by Del Webb".
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Anthem feels more like a luxury holiday resort than a
>town. It
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; includes a water park, with Disneyesque water slides,
>a children's
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; railway, hiking trails, tennis courts, a rock-climbing
>wall, two golf
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; courses, several spotless parks, a supermarket mall, two
>churches, a
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; school and, for those who want a little more security,
>the Anthem
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Country Club, a gated (and guarded) community.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Anthem, which is planned to have 12,500 homes, opened
>in 1999. Its
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; houses and roads look spotless. One reason for this is
>that everybody
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; who buys a house in Anthem has to follow certain covenants,
>conditions
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; and restrictions (CC&amp;RS), governing everything from
>the colour of your
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; house to whether you can put your car on blocks outside
>it (you
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; can't). Everybody in Anthem, except the construction workers,
>seems to
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; be white.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Anthem sounds like an exclusive enclave for the rich.
>Far from it:
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; homes start at a distinctly modest $155,000. Even the
>residents of the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Anthem Country Club hardly seem posh. They tend to laugh
>at the rules,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; regarding them, like the long commute to Phoenix, as part
>of the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; price. Why did one young mother come here? "Because it's
>safe, because
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; there are activities, because it's, well, like us."
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Indeed, Anthem is not bucking a trend, but joining it.
>In many of the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; fastest-growing parts of America, development is being
>driven by
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; "master-planned communities" of one sort or another. In
>big cities
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; half the new home sales are in association-managed communities,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; according to the Community Associations Institute. Altogether,
>some
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 47m people-one in six Americans-live in 18m homes in 230,000
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; communities and pay around $35 billion in fees every year.
>Around
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1.25m people serve on community-association boards.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Nowadays, whoever you are, there is probably a community
>planned with
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; you in mind. In Nevada, a 55-acre community called Front
>Sight,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; featuring streets with names like Second Amendment Drive
>and Sense of
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Duty Way, is being built for gun enthusiasts (people who
>buy an acre
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; plot get lifetime use of the 22 planned ranges, an Uzi
>machinegun and
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; a safari in Africa). In Baton Rouge, Louisiana, one gated
>community
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; seems to have been taken over by black rap stars. In poor
>areas of
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Chicago, residents have set up gated communities to ward
>off crime.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Though most of these places are in the west and the south,
>they crop
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; up all over the country.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Legally speaking, there are three different kinds of association.
>The
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; commonest, about 6o% of the total, are home-owner associations:
>a
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; house buyer also becomes a member of an association that
>owns the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; common areas, levies dues and sets rules. Another 30%
>or so are
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; condominiums typically flats in a single building-where
>the whole
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; building is owned by a condominium association. The remaining
>8% are
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; co-operatives, which are like condos, except that the
>owners have
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; shares in the co-op; most of these are in New York. Of
>all these, some
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 20,000 units, housing 8m people, are gated communities.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The CC&amp;RS vary. In some cases, they just govern how
>you sell your
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; house. But the list of rules seems to be getting longer.
>Some
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; residents have to cough up for maintaining the roads,
>pavements and
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; street lights, looking after the parks and providing security.
>A
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; maximum size for dogs--usually 30lbs--is increasingly
>common. Leisure
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; World, California, has its own television station. The
>proliferation
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; of CC&amp;RS is driven by the trend towards master-planned
>communities
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; (like Anthem), where the developer tries to create not
>just a cluster
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; of homes but a way of life.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The two models for master-planned communities both date
>back to the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1960s: Irvine, in southern California, and Sun City, outside
>Phoenix.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The whole of Irvine was built by one firm, the Irvine
>Company, which
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; says confidently that its present population of 200,000
>should double
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; in the next 20 years. The company presides over Irvine
>in an avuncular
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; manner. Apart from laying down the CC&amp;RS, it lures
>in businesses (the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Irvine Spectrum business park is one of the fastest-growing
>in the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; country), and in 1961 it gave 1,000 acres to set up the
>local branch
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; of the University of California. Irvine's 75,000 homes
>are divided
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; into 25 villages (some gated, most not) which collect
>the dues and
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; watch over the rules.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The result, argues the Irvine Company, is "smart growth".
>Whereas many
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Californians spend hours commuting in their cars, 60%
>of Irvine
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Spectrum's workers live within 15 minutes of their jobs.
>Unplanned
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; towns tend to eat into parks, but 40% of Irvine's space
>will remain
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; unbuilt-on forever. And then there are all those nice
>little things.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Graffiti are quickly removed; there are no billboards
>on the freeways;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; construction workers have to spray water to keep down
>the dust.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sun City, the other great model, is a town of 46,000 people
>built by
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Del Webb on the other side of Phoenix from Anthem. This
>is a
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; retirement community, still probably the main section
>of the market.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Retiring to one of these communities (Sun City alone has
>bred a dozen
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; places with the same name) has become almost a routine
>part of
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; middle-class life.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Many of these towns require at least one person in each
>house to be 55
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; or older, and exclude children. Leisure World, another
>pioneer from
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; the 196os, has 20,000 people with an average age of 77.
>The west is
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; littered with elderly Chicagoans who left the Windy City
>because of
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; the cold and now can't stop moaning about their air-conditioning
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; bills. Even Rabbit Angstrom, John Updike's American Everyman,
>ended up
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; in a Florida condo.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; But the retirement market is changing. Witness the newest
>Sun City
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; outside Phoenix-a computerised, Starbucked, multi-gym
>affair aimed at
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; "active adults". By 2010, there will be 75m Americans
>aged 55 or more.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; People now live about 15 years longer than when the first
>Sun City was
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; built, but most of the surge in numbers by 2010 will come
>from the 76m
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; members of the baby-boom generation, now moving towards
>retirement.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The older sort of retirement community is not exactly
>a senile nursing
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; home (there were two dozen complaints about couples having
>sex
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; outdoors at Sun City West last year, the average age of
>the offenders
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; being 73). But the baby-boomers represent a new challenge.
>Zoomers-Del
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Webb's name for the first group of retiring boomers-prefer
>to retire
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; early (Del Webb's research shows one in three planning
>to retire
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; before 60), but without giving up work completely. Retirement
>for them
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; will be a third age, still full of assorted activities.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Why they keep growing
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Demographics partly explains the growth of planned communities.
>But
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; there are two deeper forces at work: American Utopianism,
>and distrust
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; of government.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Evan McKenzie, a professor at the University of Illinois
>in Chicago
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; and author of "Privatopia" (Yale University Press, 1994),
>argues that,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; whereas European Utopians tended to concentrate on changing
>the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; society around them, American ones preferred to go off
>and create a
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; new world somewhere else. Some cities-on-a-hill have been
>built by
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; religious fervour. More often, immigrants simply want
>to use America's
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; empty space to create a better life. Contemplating the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; "uncontaminated" wilderness of the west, Thomas Paine
>once mused, "We
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; have it in our power to begin the world all over again."
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; A similar optimism, if not quite so elegantly phrased,
>litters the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; literature of planned communities. The other side of the
>coin is
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; pessimism about-and often disdain for-the services that
>public cities
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; provide. The commonest worry is security (hence all those
>gates,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; though there is not much evidence that gated communities
>are safer
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; than non-gated ones). But there are also concerns about
>education,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; health care, transport: everything the public sector is
>supposed to
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; provide.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Compare Valencia, a fast-growing "private" city an hour
>north of Los
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Angeles, with the San Fernando Valley, which is the northern
>part of
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; that city, and has provided around a quarter of Valencia's
>42,000
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; people. Children in the San Fernando Valley are condemned
>to schools
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; run by L.A'S notorious Unified School District; Valencia's
>schools are
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; excellent. People walk in the Valley only if they run
>out of petrol;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Valencia has 25 miles of paseos for people to jog and
>bike along.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Crime is high in the Valley; Valencia is part of Santa
>Clairita, one
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; of the safest cities in the country. Thanks to smart growth,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; two-thirds of the homes in Valencia are within a quarter
>of a mile of
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; school, shops and library. If only, moan Angelenos.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Joel Kotkin, author of "The New Geography" (Random House,
>2000), calls
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; the rise of places like Valencia "an escape to sanity"
>from the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; corruption and inefficiency of big-city government. Community
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; associations took off in California in the 1970s, the
>same decade as
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; the passing of Proposition 13, which cut taxes for local
>government.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; And their growth has also coincided with that of private
>schools and
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; private security guards; the latter now out-number the
>"public" police
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; by four to one.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GRAPH: Private dwelling; Source: Community
>Associations Institute
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Private dwelling;
>Source: Community Associations Institute
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; So are planned communities a good thing? For the Americans
>inside
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; them, the answer is usually yes. "Do I like being told
>that I have to
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; warn the security guards that I am going to have a party,
>or that I
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; cannot put up a basketball hoop in my driveway?" asks
>one Irvineite.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; "Of course I don't. But it's not something that keeps
>me awake at
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; night." There is a widespread feeling that housing-association
>boards
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; attract the worst busybodies in town. Yet still the queue
>of
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; applicants goes on growing.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; The public-private schism
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; What about America as a whole? These are, still, mainly
>white places.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; In five days The Economist met only one black resident
>and no Latinos
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; in a string of planned communities across the west and
>the southwest.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; This may change, as America's middle class grows steadily
>more
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; multi-coloured; but for now the juxtaposition of white
>Sun Cities and
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Latino local schools in Arizona is strange, even troubling.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; A more general worry is that a growing part of the middle
>class is
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; abandoning the state: living on private roads, sending
>its children to
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; private schools, paying for its own private police force,
>playing golf
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; at private clubs. Why bother supporting public services
>when you get
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; all yours delivered privately? And what about all those
>poorer people,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; stuck with public housing, public schools and public transport?
>From
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; the right, Charles Murray has talked of America's coming
>"caste
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; society'', with old-style cities becoming like Indian
>reservations.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; From the left, Robert Reich fears a secession of the successful.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; This is an exaggeration. There are occasional examples
>of selfish
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; behaviour: some elderly gated communities have voted not
>to let public
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; schools within their walls. But there is no evidence that
>whites in
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; planned communities are any more hostile to government
>spending than
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; those outside. The mayor of Irvine, Larry Agran (a left-wing
>Democrat
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; who once ran for president), says the people of Irvine
>are far more
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; involved in both their state and local governments than
>people in Los
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Angeles, where he used to live.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; To be sure, the growth of planned communities can eat
>into the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; authority of the state. Robert Nelson, of the University
>of Maryland,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; points to two examples. The CC&amp;RS trump a good deal
>of municipal law
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; (for instance in terms of property-sales contracts). Second,
>a
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; community can set rules about who is allowed to live in
>it.
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; For Mr Agran, all this is worthwhile. The real evils of
>life in
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; southern California, he says, are things like "the separation
>of the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; workplace from the home". In communities with smart growth
>this is a
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; fading problem. Mr Kotkin agrees: "It would be perverse
>to limit the
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; growth of successful places that people want to live in."
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; PHOTO (COLOR)
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
>_________________
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Copyright of The Economist is the property of Economist
>Newspaper, NA,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Inc. and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple
>sites or
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express
>written
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; permission. However, users may print, download, or email
>articles for
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; individual use.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Source: Economist, 9/1/2001, Vol. 360 Issue 8237, p25,
>2p, 1 graph,
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; 1c.
><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; Item Number: 5100695
><br>&nbsp;
><br>&nbsp;
><p>--
><br>Victor M. Rodriguez, Ph.D.
><br>Diversity Consultant/Trainer
><br>CrossCultural Dialogue
><br>rodr...@home.com
><br>&nbsp;</html>
>

El Marques

unread,
Dec 7, 2001, 7:22:40 PM12/7/01
to
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C10FE59...@home.com...
> Jeje...yo creo que tu has estado respirando
> pega por demasiado tiempo....

Mientras que tu has estado respirando odio toda tu vida, y el efecto sobre
tu cerebro ha sido un millon deveces peor, porque ya no tienes capacidad
para desarrollar ni una sola idea independiente que no venga embarrada de
ese odio anti-americano que te consume! Pero ya tu tienes tu peor castigo -
que vives la vida que pretendes criticarle a los demas, y eso te rejode el
alma! Alla tu con tu conciencia!

El Marques


vmrd

unread,
Dec 7, 2001, 8:23:08 PM12/7/01
to
Cavilo lo que dices camino a el jacuzzi ... BTW, prefieres el Merlot o
el Chardonnay?

El Marques

unread,
Dec 7, 2001, 8:54:26 PM12/7/01
to
"vmrd" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C116D3B...@home.com...

> Cavilo lo que dices camino a el jacuzzi
> ... BTW, prefieres el Merlot o el Chardonnay?

Se me olvidaba que hoy es viernes. Si alguien logra descifrar lo que trata
de decir este borrachon, por favor que lo comparta con los que estamos
sobrios!

El Marques


XXX

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 1:14:09 PM12/8/01
to
In article <3C118B0A...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>Jeje! A menos que hayas comenzado a tragarte la botella de escoces que
>usualmente te endilgas, sabes bien a lo que me refiero.
><p>Mano, "you are so easy!"

Lo unico que es "easy" aqui, es ver el ridiculo que haces en este foro dia tras dia.
No tenemos que preguntarnos el porque tu eres un fracaso total en el mundo academico, si con ese
problema brutal con el alcohol que tienes, mas tu inabilidad total de poder exponer una idea en
forma racional es imposible que llegaras a algo en esta vida

XXX

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 1:18:53 PM12/8/01
to
In article <3C118A91...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>Jeje! Lo tuyo esta en remojo ...

Igual como lo de Franchi?
A la verdad que a ti se que te gusta amenazar, ah? Porque sera que siempre que abusas el alcohol
te pones en esas?
Sabes lo que dicen sobre eso, verdad? Supuestamente te remueve las inhibiciones y sale el
verdadero ser que tienes por dentro.
En tu caso, vemos que es un ser lleno de odio, revanchismo y complejos.

Jorge Franchi

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 3:48:17 PM12/8/01
to
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" wrote in message...
cuando yo quiera hacer algo
Mejor diga, cuando pueda hacer algo ... porque el unico que esta jodio aqui es el pendejo que amenazo de muerte a un empleado federal y con destruir la carrera academica de un estudiante graduado via supuestas palas.
 
Jorge Franchi

vmrd

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 4:16:58 PM12/8/01
to
Palas? Tu ni tuviste un "score" lo suficiente alto para entrar a FSU!
Affirmative Action Admit! YO ME GRADUE CON 3.89!
Hasta James tiene mejores notas que tu!

jAJA!

h0mi

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Dec 8, 2001, 5:59:43 PM12/8/01
to

"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" wrote:
>
> A medida que la poblacion envejece, a medida que la poblacion se torna
> mas diversa, racial y culturalmente, se van trazando nuevas formas de
> segregacion, mas sutiles pero no por eso menos peligrosas.
>

> -------------------


>
>
> The growth of private communities
>

> AMERICA'S NEW UTOPIAS


>
> Private housing associations increasingly lay down the laws that

> middle-class Americans live by. What are they doing to the
> country?

<snip>

> From the left, Robert Reich fears a secession of the successful.
>

> This is an exaggeration. There are occasional examples of selfish

> behaviour: some elderly gated communities have voted not to let

> public schools within their walls. But there is no evidence that
> whites in planned communities are any more hostile to government
> spending than those outside. The mayor of Irvine, Larry Agran (a
> left-wing Democrat who once ran for president), says the people of
> Irvine are far more involved in both their state and local
> governments than people in Los Angeles, where he used to live.


>
> To be sure, the growth of planned communities can eat into the

> authority of the state. Robert Nelson, of the University of

> Maryland, points to two examples. The CC&RS trump a good deal
> of municipal law (for instance in terms of property-sales
> contracts). Second, a community can set rules about who is

> allowed to live in it.
>

> For Mr Agran, all this is worthwhile. The real evils of life in

> southern California, he says, are things like "the separation of

> the workplace from the home". In communities with smart growth
> this is a fading problem. Mr Kotkin agrees: "It would be perverse
> to limit the growth of successful places that people want to live
> in."

Sounds like an indictment of "planned communities" and so called "Smart
growth".

While the lack of Latinos or blacks in these communities would be
roubling, that in and of itself does not demonstrate anything, unless
you're resorting to the use of numbers (ie quotas) to determine that
discrimination is happening, or not happening. What is more worrisome is
how expensive buying a home has become, and that hurts Latinos, Blacks
and Whites.

Looking at mapquest, the area in question looks rather far and isolated
from Phoenix- its about 30 miles north of Phoenix. According to the
article, this is taking place in a town called Anthem Az.

A search on Google refers to the following URL, amongst others.
http://www.delwebb.com/countryclub/arizona/anthemcountryclub/index.shtml

These homes do not appear to be geared towards anyone in the middle or
lower classes. This appears to be geared towards well off people, or the
rich. It looks to me less like a "permanent" home and more like a 2nd
home, but the presence of schools suggests otherwise.

Looking at the sale prices of these homes, it seems these homes in this
community are going for 250,000 or more. But that's the cost of homes at
the country club. The article referred to homes that were over 1/2 that
cost, and I'm

Here in San Diego, that would be average. In Phoenix, that seems to be a
price for more luxurious houses- on realtor.com I found over 2000
listings for homes that were 200K and less. For homes from 200-400K, I
found almost 990. And some of the listings were from "Anthem, AZ" as
well. I found 59 listings under 200K for Anthem AZ and 201 for >200K.
This suggests that homes that are under 200K are low end, and uncommon.

XXX

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Dec 8, 2001, 6:25:39 PM12/8/01
to
In article <3C129B75...@yahooo.com>, h0...@yahooo.com says...

>Sounds like an indictment of "planned communities" and so called "Smart
>growth".
>
>While the lack of Latinos or blacks in these communities would be
>roubling, that in and of itself does not demonstrate anything, unless
>you're resorting to the use of numbers (ie quotas) to determine that
>discrimination is happening, or not happening. What is more worrisome is
>how expensive buying a home has become, and that hurts Latinos, Blacks
>and Whites.

I should tell you that Victor neglected to mention that EVERY SINGLE NEW HOUSING DEVELOPMENT in
Puerto Rico these days is under the "gated community" concept or geared for easy transformation
to the same. In San Juan in particular, all new housing for the last few years has been done
under the gated community concept.
So you see, latinos are getting into it as well. Miami and Orlando, which are full of latinos,
are also chock full of gated communities.

XXX

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 6:28:53 PM12/8/01
to
In article <3C1285BC...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>Palas? Tu ni tuviste un "score" lo suficiente alto para entrar a FSU!
>Affirmative Action Admit! YO ME GRADUE CON 3.89!

Aqui no se esta hablando de notas de primer grado, canto de brucefalo, sino de universidad.
Y te podras haber graduado con el promedio que sea, pero la realidad es que ya pasastes los 50 y
todavia eres un "Assistant Professor" que apenas empezo a dar clases en una universidad que no es
sino un depositorio de estudiantes de C.

>Hasta James tiene mejores notas que tu!
>

Y quien es James?

XXX

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 6:42:22 PM12/8/01
to
In article <3C126187...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>La paranoia te pone a ver cucos en las paredes. Como he dicho cuchucientas
>veces aqui cuando yo quiera hacer algo, no me escondo ni estoy con anonimos
>como ustedes ni siquiera encapuchado. Lo hare en ley, de frente.

Si, lo has dicho cuchucientas veces, una pena que no sea verdad.
Aqui has amenazado, has cyberstalked y dios sabe que mas has hecho bajo la proteccion del
anonimato.

XXX

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 6:43:50 PM12/8/01
to
In article <3C126105...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>El ridiculo lo haces tu, tu alcoholismo es notorio en los circulos en que
>te mueves. Deja de proyectarte. Das pena y nausea.

Vamos a ver quien es el alcoholico, que ahora me estas confundiendo con El Marques.
Victor, ya aqui se sabe sobre tus problemas, deja de huirle a ellos.

Jorge Franchi

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 7:39:29 PM12/8/01
to
"vmrd" wrote in message...

> YO ME GRADUE CON 3.89!

Whao ... y esos 3.89 en Sociologia (JA JA!) lo han llevado a un puestucho de
Asociado en un programa de pacotilla.

Admitalo ... usted es y seguira siendo un SOBERANO MEDIOCRE que no ha llegado a
ningun lado a los cincuenta años.

Jorge Franchi

Jorge Franchi

unread,
Dec 8, 2001, 7:53:44 PM12/8/01
to
"vmrd" wrote in message...

> Tu ni tuviste un "score" lo suficiente alto para entrar a FSU!
> Affirmative Action Admit!

Claro que lo admito! Ejma, soy un bruto que no sabe hablar ni escribir.

Pero usted no deja de ser un un desquiciado mental que llego a este grupo con
guille de jodón, pero resulto ser un SOBERANO MEDIOCRE; un HIPÓCRITA que aunque
incita a las masas a practicar la desobediencia civil, no se atreve a
practicarla; un FARSANTE que aunque diz que es "experto," no tiene las
calificaciones necesarias para categorizarse como tal; un VIVIDOR y ENAJENADO
MENTAL que precisa dispersar odio, rencor y miedo entre las razas para poder
ganar dinero.

Ahh ... se me olvidaba ... y con un 3.89 en Sociologia (JA JA!) y de un programa
de pacotilla.

'Dito!

Jorge Franchi

h0mi

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 3:10:52 AM12/9/01
to

I'm not surprised... I've heard of the phenomenon for a few years, both
as part of "smart growth" policies and just part of an effort to create
a new community that people would want to live in. And face it... the
world was more dangerous even prior to 9/11 than it was years ago.
Despite the drops in crime we've experienced in the past 20 years,
people feel less safe and secure than before. So we see a push to build
a more safe and secure community.

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 11:32:36 AM12/9/01
to
In article <9uubu8$23k$1...@news.fsu.edu>, Ple...@nospam.com says...

Estas equivocado, el ha llegado a vivir en el mejor pais del mundo, recibiendo albergue en el
"welfare state" academico que los EU han creado. No tan solo eso, sino que tiene un "sideline",
guisando chavos a base de la explotacion de estereotipos y la cultura de victimaje.
Para el que tenga dudas de lo magnanimos que son los americanos, solo tienen que ver que permiten
que una sanguijuela (antes hubiera dicho rata de cuenta, pero las ratas protestaron) como Victor
pueda andar por ahi hablando pestes de ellos, a la misma vez que ellos lo mantienen.

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 12:40:49 PM12/9/01
to

XXX wrote:


Canto de bobo entonces estas diciendo que El Marques es un alcoholico
...Jaime, tremendo pana te gastas!

Todos los dias ...


Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 12:44:16 PM12/9/01
to

XXX wrote:

> In article <3C1285BC...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>>Palas? Tu ni tuviste un "score" lo suficiente alto para entrar a FSU!
>>Affirmative Action Admit! YO ME GRADUE CON 3.89!
>>
>
> Aqui no se esta hablando de notas de primer grado, canto de brucefalo, sino de universidad.
> Y te podras haber graduado con el promedio que sea, pero la realidad es que ya pasastes los 50 y
> todavia eres un "Assistant Professor" que apenas empezo a dar clases en una universidad que no es
> sino un depositorio de estudiantes de C.


Que moron eres! Por lo menos el cyberstalker de Franchi esta mas
informado, aunque como siempre no sabe lo que la informacion significa.


>
>
>>Hasta James tiene mejores notas que tu!
>>
>>
> Y quien es James?
>
>


Paul, el que siempre te arraaaastra por el piso ...

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 12:46:17 PM12/9/01
to
Como siempre, no tienen un argumento serio y se esconden detras de
insultos y difamaciones.

La verdad es que este foro sigue hundiendose gracias a uds.

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 12:58:02 PM12/9/01
to

h0mi wrote:

>

> Sounds like an indictment of "planned communities" and so called "Smart
> growth".


Basically the author is referring to the "cocooning" process. This is
becoming more visible throughout the U.S. Some argue that it is the
"subtle" way of re-segregating while avoiding the label of "racist" by
accepting some select individuals from communities of color. Dana Point
is a a good example of this, the mexican community lives in one part of
the city and the rest of the city is made of gated communities
predominantly inhabited by whites and a few people of color.


>
> While the lack of Latinos or blacks in these communities would be
> roubling, that in and of itself does not demonstrate anything, unless
> you're resorting to the use of numbers (ie quotas) to determine that
> discrimination is happening, or not happening. What is more worrisome is
> how expensive buying a home has become, and that hurts Latinos, Blacks
> and Whites.


Housing discrimination is subtle but pervasive, a few years ago a number
of housing complexes in Orange County were sued for "steering" and
outright discrimination. The cases are still in court.


>
> Looking at mapquest, the area in question looks rather far and isolated
> from Phoenix- its about 30 miles north of Phoenix. According to the
> article, this is taking place in a town called Anthem Az.
>
> A search on Google refers to the following URL, amongst others.
> http://www.delwebb.com/countryclub/arizona/anthemcountryclub/index.shtml
>
> These homes do not appear to be geared towards anyone in the middle or
> lower classes. This appears to be geared towards well off people, or the
> rich. It looks to me less like a "permanent" home and more like a 2nd
> home, but the presence of schools suggests otherwise.


There are many Black and Latino persons of upper middle class status and
few of them find their way into those communities. In Irvine you can
see a Black person as often as you find a "piragua" stand.


>
> Looking at the sale prices of these homes, it seems these homes in this
> community are going for 250,000 or more. But that's the cost of homes at
> the country club. The article referred to homes that were over 1/2 that
> cost, and I'm
>
> Here in San Diego, that would be average. In Phoenix, that seems to be a
> price for more luxurious houses- on realtor.com I found over 2000
> listings for homes that were 200K and less. For homes from 200-400K, I
> found almost 990. And some of the listings were from "Anthem, AZ" as
> well. I found 59 listings under 200K for Anthem AZ and 201 for >200K.
> This suggests that homes that are under 200K are low end, and uncommon.


It's called "steering" in real estate jargon, you steer people into
their "own" neighborhoods and no one will notice it.


>

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 1:01:39 PM12/9/01
to
I don't think that the comparison holds, I have been to them and see
people of all colors, in Puerto Rico is an issue of security (although
no evidence indicates they are more secure) and status (especially
class). Here it is a bit more complicated.

XXX wrote:


>
> I should tell you that Victor neglected to mention that EVERY SINGLE NEW HOUSING DEVELOPMENT in
> Puerto Rico these days is under the "gated community" concept or geared for easy transformation
> to the same. In San Juan in particular, all new housing for the last few years has been done
> under the gated community concept.
> So you see, latinos are getting into it as well. Miami and Orlando, which are full of latinos,
> are also chock full of gated communities.
>
>
>
>
>


I also did not say anything about manors in Essex.

I don't think that the comparison holds, I have been to them and see
people of all colors, in Puerto Rico is an issue of security (although
no evidence indicates they are more secure) and status (especially
class). Here it is a bit more complicated.


>

El Marques

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 12:59:05 PM12/9/01
to
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C13A47D...@home.com...

> Como siempre, no tienen un argumento serio y se esconden
> detras de insultos y difamaciones.

Una vez mas, te repito el argumento SERIO que expone XXX para explicar tu
comportamiento y revelar las razones que te mueven a actuar de la forma que
actuas. En cuanto a clasificarlas como "insultos" y "difamaciones", eso
solo seria correcto si no fueran ciertas todas y cada una de las expresiones
que hace XXX aqui en este breve parrafo. Nos puedes decir entonces cuales
son falsas?

> > Estas equivocado, el ha llegado a vivir en el mejor pais del
> > mundo, recibiendo albergue en el "welfare state" academico
> > que los EU han creado. No tan solo eso, sino que tiene un
> > "sideline", guisando chavos a base de la explotacion de
> > estereotipos y la cultura de victimaje. Para el que tenga
> > dudas de lo magnanimos que son los americanos, solo tienen
> > que ver que permiten que una sanguijuela (antes hubiera
> > dicho rata de cuenta, pero las ratas protestaron) como Victor
> > pueda andar por ahi hablando pestes de ellos, a la misma
> > vez que ellos lo mantienen.


Lo unico correcto en tu patetica alegacion es que seria insultante para
cualquier ser humano pensante ganarse la vida de la forma que tu lo haces,
pero ya sabemos que tu no te encuentras bajo esa clasificacion!

El Marques


El Marques

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 1:04:11 PM12/9/01
to
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C13A817...@home.com...
> I don't think...

We know, Victor, WE KNOW!

El Marques


Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 1:11:14 PM12/9/01
to

h0mi wrote:

>
>
> I'm not surprised... I've heard of the phenomenon for a few years, both
> as part of "smart growth" policies and just part of an effort to create
> a new community that people would want to live in. And face it... the
> world was more dangerous even prior to 9/11 than it was years ago.
> Despite the drops in crime we've experienced in the past 20 years,
> people feel less safe and secure than before. So we see a push to build
> a more safe and secure community.
>


I don't think that the pheomenom in Puerto Rico is similar to what is
happening here. Dale Maharidge, in his 1996 book "The Coming White
Minority" has a map that shows the pervasive and increasing
re-segregation of Califas. You would find this book very interesting.
BTW, before any one questions Dale he is the recipient of the 1990
Pulitzer prize in Non-Fiction and a great researcher.

Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
a "criminal" it is usually a person of color. Then it is not suprising
that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).

"Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...


El Marques

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 1:12:50 PM12/9/01
to
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C13AA55...@home.com...
> I don't think...

The more you say it, the more evident it becomes!

El Marques


Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 1:16:34 PM12/9/01
to
Lo que me apena de todos estos comentarios es que uds son tan locos que
estan convencidos de su veracidad.

Pos' pa' lante!

El Marques

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 2:52:10 PM12/9/01
to
"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C13AB95...@home.com...

> Lo que me apena de todos estos comentarios es que
> uds son tan locos que estan convencidos de su veracidad.

Lo verdaderamente patetico de este comentario tuyo es que no tienes la
integridad ni la capacidad para poder reconocer ni admitir la triste
realidad que vives dia a dia! Sera por esto que buscas escapar metiendote
dentro de la botella?

El Marques


Rafael H. Perez Roura

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 3:19:46 PM12/9/01
to
Paul..aka Dr. Schidt

--
"Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. " -W

"Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez" <rodr...@home.com> wrote in message

news:3C13A404...@home.com...

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 3:35:45 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13A335...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>Canto de bobo entonces estas diciendo que El Marques es un alcoholico
>...Jaime, tremendo pana te gastas!

Pero seras imbecil o es que esa es parte de las consecuencias de tu abuso del alcohol?
El que viene acusando a El Marques de ser alcoholico eres tu, canto de trozo de mierda, y te
confundistes y me acusastes a mi tambien.
Victor, vete a AA, que todavia tienes tiempo para arrepentirte

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 3:37:32 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13A404...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>Que moron eres! Por lo menos el cyberstalker de Franchi esta mas
>informado, aunque como siempre no sabe lo que la informacion significa.

Se dan cuenta que Victor JAMAS niega lo que asevero? Insulta, despotrica, le da dos o tres mas
jalones a la caneca que siempre tiene a su lado, pero nunca lo niega.

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 3:39:53 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13A47D...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>Como siempre, no tienen un argumento serio y se esconden detras de
>insultos y difamaciones.

Mira quien habla, un tipo que tilda de "moron" o de "bruto" a todo el que discrepe del.
Deja tu hipocresia, canto de asno, que lo que tienes que hacer es argumentar, en vez de seguir
evadiendo.

>La verdad es que este foro sigue hundiendose gracias a uds.


No te gusta? Pues largate pa uno de esos lists serves de independejistas, donde podras abundar a
tu saciedad con la mierda que tanto te gusta hablar.
Y antes que se me olvide, nuevamente no niegas que lo que dije fuera cierto.

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 3:47:45 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13A73D...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>
>
>h0mi wrote:
>
>>
>
>> Sounds like an indictment of "planned communities" and so called "Smart
>> growth".
>
>
>Basically the author is referring to the "cocooning" process. This is
>becoming more visible throughout the U.S. Some argue that it is the
>"subtle" way of re-segregating while avoiding the label of "racist" by
>accepting some select individuals from communities of color. Dana Point
>is a a good example of this, the mexican community lives in one part of
>the city and the rest of the city is made of gated communities
>predominantly inhabited by whites and a few people of color.

Which means that anyone with the means can live there, thus defeating your hypothesis.

>Housing discrimination is subtle but pervasive, a few years ago a number
>of housing complexes in Orange County were sued for "steering" and
>outright discrimination. The cases are still in court.

And that also means that no conclusions can be derived from such legal actions, as they have not
been determined.

>There are many Black and Latino persons of upper middle class status and
> few of them find their way into those communities. In Irvine you can
>see a Black person as often as you find a "piragua" stand.

So? If they don't want to live there, that's their problem. As far as finding or not finding a
black in Irvine, so what? You're not going to find many blacks in South Dakota or North Dakota
either. Is their absence proof positive of racism? Or could it be that, since blacks only make
up about 12% of the general population, there's a hell of a lot of places where you're not going
to find them?

>It's called "steering" in real estate jargon, you steer people into
>their "own" neighborhoods and no one will notice it.

And now Victor is trying to pretend to be a real estate maven as well?
And who are these people who let themselves be "steered" like cattle?

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 3:54:05 PM12/9/01
to
No y tampoco negue que Santa Claus existe!

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 3:55:55 PM12/9/01
to

XXX wrote:

>
>
> Mira quien habla, un tipo que tilda de "moron" o de "bruto" a todo el que discrepe del.
> Deja tu hipocresia, canto de asno, que lo que tienes que hacer es argumentar, en vez de seguir
> evadiendo.


Yo solo llamo moron a quien es un moron. Tu te lo ganaste.


>
>
>>La verdad es que este foro sigue hundiendose gracias a uds.
>>
>
>
> No te gusta? Pues largate pa uno de esos lists serves de independejistas, donde podras abundar a
> tu saciedad con la mierda que tanto te gusta hablar.
> Y antes que se me olvide, nuevamente no niegas que lo que dije fuera cierto.
>


Date una vuelta por Palique, alli la gente es mucho mas decente que tu y
tus personalidades ...


>

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 4:03:49 PM12/9/01
to

XXX wrote:


>>Basically the author is referring to the "cocooning" process. This is
>>becoming more visible throughout the U.S. Some argue that it is the
>>"subtle" way of re-segregating while avoiding the label of "racist" by
>>accepting some select individuals from communities of color. Dana Point
>>is a a good example of this, the mexican community lives in one part of
>>the city and the rest of the city is made of gated communities
>>predominantly inhabited by whites and a few people of color.
>>
>
> Which means that anyone with the means can live there, thus defeating your hypothesis.


Sure, and Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice make the Bush cabinet a truly
open and diverse administration.


>
>
>>Housing discrimination is subtle but pervasive, a few years ago a number
>>of housing complexes in Orange County were sued for "steering" and
>>outright discrimination. The cases are still in court.
>>
>
> And that also means that no conclusions can be derived from such legal actions, as they have not
> been determined.


Those are just the most recent.


>
>
>>There are many Black and Latino persons of upper middle class status and
>> few of them find their way into those communities. In Irvine you can
>>see a Black person as often as you find a "piragua" stand.
>>
>
> So? If they don't want to live there, that's their problem. As far as finding or not finding a
> black in Irvine, so what? You're not going to find many blacks in South Dakota or North Dakota
> either. Is their absence proof positive of racism? Or could it be that, since blacks only make
> up about 12% of the general population, there's a hell of a lot of places where you're not going
> to find them?

You may be right, I did not see Martians in ND I guess it means they do
not exist.


>
>
>>It's called "steering" in real estate jargon, you steer people into
>>their "own" neighborhoods and no one will notice it.
>>
>
> And now Victor is trying to pretend to be a real estate maven as well?
> And who are these people who let themselves be "steered" like cattle?
>
>


You are obviously unaware of its pervasivenes, but then ... what's new?

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 4:04:44 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13A817...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>I don't think that the comparison holds, I have been to them and see
>people of all colors, in Puerto Rico is an issue of security (although
>no evidence indicates they are more secure)

Is there evidence that indicates that they are not?

>and status (especially class). Here it is a bit more complicated.

You will never cease to amaze me with your talent for holding forth on topics that you do not
know dick about.
Security is also an issue for gated communities in the states.
And you know about those covenants (in spanish, we call them "servidumbres en equidad") that
those gated communities in the states have? Well, they have them in the gated communities in PR
as well, and they are directed at preserving property values and quality of life.
So, in Puerto Rico, as in the states, people are moving into these developments for pretty much
the same reasons: security and quality of life.

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 4:05:28 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13D080...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>No y tampoco negue que Santa Claus existe!

Pero canto de borracho, cuando yo dije que el existiera?

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 4:09:35 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13D0EE...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>
>
>XXX wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mira quien habla, un tipo que tilda de "moron" o de "bruto" a todo el que discrepe del.
>> Deja tu hipocresia, canto de asno, que lo que tienes que hacer es argumentar, en vez de seguir
>> evadiendo.
>
>
>Yo solo llamo moron a quien es un moron. Tu te lo ganaste.

Y yo llamo pendejo, mentiroso e hipocrita al que se lo merece. Y tu te lo mereces.
No te quejes de que alguien te haga lo que tu mismo haces, canto de hipocrita.

>Date una vuelta por Palique, alli la gente es mucho mas decente que tu y
>tus personalidades ...

No me gustan los list serves, sirven para que un grupito selecto pueda tener discusiones
esteriles entre si. Por eso te los recomiendo, tu no tienes la fibra para poder mantener una
discusion inteligente con alguien que se te oponga. Lo degeneras en insultos, para luego
quejarte hipocritamante de "lo bajo del tono del debate". Claro, en un list serve el moderador
no te permite que te las canten como te las cantamos aqui, asi que cuando quieras leer la verdad,
leete uno de los mensajes de Franchi, El Marques, TDC, Observador, Rafa Perez o este servidor,
que nosotros te recordaremos en todo momento lo mentiroso, hipocrita y pendejo que eres.

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 4:17:56 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13AA55...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>I don't think

You've proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

>that the pheomenom in Puerto Rico is similar to what is
>happening here.

It isn't a phenomenon. It's a way of life in PR. But you wouldn't know about that, Victor,
since you don't live here.


>Dale Maharidge, in his 1996 book "The Coming White
>Minority" has a map that shows the pervasive and increasing
>re-segregation of Califas. You would find this book very interesting.
>BTW, before any one questions Dale he is the recipient of the 1990
>Pulitzer prize in Non-Fiction and a great researcher.

So what? Janice Cooke won a non-fiction Pulitzer Prize some time ago, and she was one hell of a
fraud. And that "academic" who wrote the book which purported to show that colonial americans
did not own guns, was just recently proven to be a fraud as well, as he distorted evidence and
falsified his research.
Victor engages here in one of the oldest argumentative tricks there is: Since "X" says it, and
"X" is well respected, then it must be true.
Mind you, he doesn't tell you what exactly "X" said, or in what context he said it, but you are
expected to put aside any doubts and take it as gospel.
This kind of intellectual chicanery is lamentably too frequent these day.

>Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
>the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
>a "criminal" it is usually a person of color.

Does that include "people of color" themselves (and what about this bs about "people of color"??
Doesn't everyone have a color? Or is this just another pathetic attempt from the PC set to put
all "minorities" into one bag?)?

>Then it is not suprising
>that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
>perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
>percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).
>
>"Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...

Well, now Victor comes out with his real argument: that gated commuties are the new way that
whites use to stay away from "people of color".
Unfortunately, that argument is not supported by the fact that in places like San Juan, Orlando
and Miami, latinos are also moving into gated communities, and by the fact that anyone can buy
into these communities. Since it would be against the law for these developments to discriminate
against anyone based on their color, sex or religion, then the argument becomes rather specious.

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 4:18:35 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13AB95...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>Lo que me apena de todos estos comentarios es que uds son tan locos que
>estan convencidos de su veracidad.
>
>Pos' pa' lante!

Lo que te deberia dar pena es tu adiccion al alcohol.

XXX

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 4:33:34 PM12/9/01
to
In article <3C13D2C8...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...

>
>Sure, and Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice make the Bush cabinet a truly
>open and diverse administration.

Wrong comparison, wrong conclusion.
Aside from the fact that your comment avoids the truth: anyone with the means can buy a house in
a gated community.

>Those are just the most recent.

So what? Just because someone sues, that doesn't mean they're right.


>You may be right, I did not see Martians in ND I guess it means they do not exist.


Here's where your defective thinking comes to the fore, Victor. I did not say that blacks did
not exist. What I said was that their absence (or at least the fact that you do not see them) in
Irvine could be due to the fact that the numbers of blacks in the US are limited, thus one cannot
expect to see them everywhere.

>You are obviously unaware of its pervasivenes, but then ... what's new?

What I'm unaware of is anything to back up what you say, but then. . . what's new?

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 4:58:40 PM12/9/01
to

XXX wrote:

Otro ejemplo de la depravacion que causa el abuso del alcohol.


Lee las puercadas que escribes antes de enviarlas ... para esto es que
te gusta el acceso al Internet?


>
> Y yo llamo pendejo, mentiroso e hipocrita al que se lo merece. Y tu te lo mereces.
> No te quejes de que alguien te haga lo que tu mismo haces, canto de hipocrita.
>
>
>>Date una vuelta por Palique, alli la gente es mucho mas decente que tu y
>>tus personalidades ...
>>
>
> No me gustan los list serves, sirven para que un grupito selecto pueda tener discusiones
> esteriles entre si. Por eso te los recomiendo, tu no tienes la fibra para poder mantener una
> discusion inteligente con alguien que se te oponga. Lo degeneras en insultos, para luego
> quejarte hipocritamante de "lo bajo del tono del debate". Claro, en un list serve el moderador
> no te permite que te las canten como te las cantamos aqui, asi que cuando quieras leer la verdad,
> leete uno de los mensajes de Franchi, El Marques, TDC, Observador, Rafa Perez o este servidor,
> que nosotros te recordaremos en todo momento lo mentiroso, hipocrita y pendejo que eres.
>
>


Y todos son dos o tres locos con PD ...

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 6:05:59 PM12/9/01
to

XXX wrote:


>>
>
> It isn't a phenomenon. It's a way of life in PR. But you wouldn't know about that, Victor,
> since you don't live here.


Wow! What a smart comment!

>
>
>
>>Dale Maharidge, in his 1996 book "The Coming White
>>Minority" has a map that shows the pervasive and increasing
>>re-segregation of Califas. You would find this book very interesting.
>>BTW, before any one questions Dale he is the recipient of the 1990
>>Pulitzer prize in Non-Fiction and a great researcher.
>>
>
> So what? Janice Cooke won a non-fiction Pulitzer Prize some time ago, and she was one hell of a
> fraud. And that "academic" who wrote the book which purported to show that colonial americans
> did not own guns, was just recently proven to be a fraud as well, as he distorted evidence and
> falsified his research.


Ad hominem ... but this is your trademark. I was sure you would come
back with some asinine remark like this one. You are so predictable it
is getting to boring. That has NOTHING to do with Dale. But then, If I
was desperate and did not have any arguments ...


> Victor engages here in one of the oldest argumentative tricks there is: Since "X" says it, and
> "X" is well respected, then it must be true.
> Mind you, he doesn't tell you what exactly "X" said, or in what context he said it, but you are
> expected to put aside any doubts and take it as gospel.
> This kind of intellectual chicanery is lamentably too frequent these day.


Your ignorance could probably create a solar eclipse. It's called a
source, buddy, a source, and a very reputable one. But then, I could
probably quote Jesus and you'd say, "since he was Jewish we can't
believe him."


>
>
>>Also that fact was documented by Waldinger in "Ethnic Los Angeles." In
>>the US the issue of crime is also a "racial" issue. When people think of
>>a "criminal" it is usually a person of color.
>>
>
> Does that include "people of color" themselves (and what about this bs about "people of color"??
> Doesn't everyone have a color? Or is this just another pathetic attempt from the PC set to put
> all "minorities" into one bag?)?


Your color is yellow ...


>
>
>>Then it is not suprising
>>that people will want to segregate themselves from the perceived
>>perpetrators of crimes (it is just a perception because a good
>>percentage of crime is intra-racial instead of inter-racial).
>>
>>"Feeling safe" means not being around people of color ...
>>
>
> Well, now Victor comes out with his real argument: that gated commuties are the new way that
> whites use to stay away from "people of color".
> Unfortunately, that argument is not supported by the fact that in places like San Juan, Orlando
> and Miami, latinos are also moving into gated communities, and by the fact that anyone can buy
> into these communities. Since it would be against the law for these developments to discriminate
> against anyone based on their color, sex or religion, then the argument becomes rather specious.
>
>


You provide no evidence so I discount your statement. Of course, racism
obeys the law! You are so naive!

In San Juan, everyone is a Boricua, in Orlando, almost everyone seems to
be ... so Latinos want to join the trend. Thye are status conscious! I'd
like to see how many would be able to enter some of the gated
communities in Alabama ... I think they call them penitentiaries!

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 6:10:11 PM12/9/01
to

XXX wrote:

> In article <3C13A817...@home.com>, rodr...@home.com says...
>
>>I don't think that the comparison holds, I have been to them and see
>>people of all colors, in Puerto Rico is an issue of security (although
>>no evidence indicates they are more secure)
>>
>
> Is there evidence that indicates that they are not?


Proving a negative? Boy you are dumb! Even Franchi knows this is a dumb
comment!


>
>
>>and status (especially class). Here it is a bit more complicated.
>>
>
> You will never cease to amaze me with your talent for holding forth on topics that you do not
> know dick about.
> Security is also an issue for gated communities in the states.


Who said it was not? At least read carefully. BTW, you are narrowing
this to "gated" communities because as usual, you did not even read the
darn article, like always.


> And you know about those covenants (in spanish, we call them "servidumbres en equidad") that
> those gated communities in the states have? Well, they have them in the gated communities in PR
> as well, and they are directed at preserving property values and quality of life.
> So, in Puerto Rico, as in the states, people are moving into these developments for pretty much
> the same reasons: security and quality of life.
>


Given the crime rate in PR, I see some rationale for them, but you can
have CC & R's without being a gated community.

>

Dr. Victor M. Rodriguez

unread,
Dec 9, 2001, 6:17:29 PM12/9/01