Vikings and Poland?
Ed Stasiak
It seems that while the Vikings were raiding/trading/conquering all over
Europe they left the Poles alone, yet Poland was just across the Baltic.
Did the Vikings ever raid Poland?
Thanks for any info
Edzio
popUp
Back then Polish Coastal Defence fortifications were the most
advanced in Middle Ages and Vikings wooden boats didn't stand
a chance against Polish submarines. In case of penetration o those
defences, there was a 100-km deep line of minefields, trenches and
barbwire at the end of which stood an army of 100 000 Polish heavy
artillery pieces,
reinforced by snipers and flamethrowers.
That should answer your quastion about lack of Viking's intrest in
Poland.
:-)))
popUp
Użytkownik Ed Stasiak <esta...@att.net> w wiadomości do grup
dyskusyjnych napisał:f33e00ab.01052...@posting.google.com...
Pan Piotr Glownia
I have couple information that may be useful to you
in that matter, as I have been quite interested in ancient
history of pre-Poland slavonic tribes.
Why Vikings didn't raid Poland?
In west there is one theory on that subject: In Poland weren't
any rich and famous cities to raid for gold and treasures.
Contradiction to this theory existed in form of the very rich and
already famous in Northern Europe in times of ancient Rome
the ancient trade cities Gdansk and Szczecin, where the famous
tradelines of Roman traders to Northern Europe frequently ended.
This gives something to think as status of Gdansk didn't
change in middleages as tradeline of merchandise from Far East,
which was going trough Kazachstan was actually going trough
Poland's rivers and city of Gdansk. The medieval Poland was
concidered by merchants as safe place to travel through.
Some "would be" facts from Poland's ancient history.
In one of our legends about "Prince Popiel" is a very
interesting story about "mice" invasion. Polish history scientist
are claiming that word "mice" was a name used by ancient
Slav for Vikings. If they are right it would mean that Vikings were
in Poland frequently in form of soldiers of fortune and helped
in internal tribal conflicts, where none native could do anything
because of the gold slavonic rule "don't harm your own no
matter what". In Northern Poland was recently found a serious
number of Viking worriers' "kurchan" graves. So were Vikings
the Slavonic "mice" or weren't?
Roman merchant writen in latin testimony of one of his
journeys to ancient pre-Poland gives more light about Viking-
-Slav relationship.
Our maritime history is actually more ancient then
1000 years of existans of Poland. It appears that actually
Slav naval fleet under command of some Szczecin's Prince
in time of Roman Empire was fiercely fighting on sea with
Vikings near a place called Kopenhagen (the capital of
Danemark?). Viking won that battle.
Notorius Vikings after succeded battles used to drink
"miod". "Miod" is a Viking word for "honey" as it is in Polish
too. Though when Viking were spelling that word it sounded
to us Polish more like "mied" then "miod". Nordic word for
"honey" is actually "honung". Strange, isn't it?
Do you know that islands Bornholm and Rugia were
Slavonic land in Roman Empire's ancient times?
The pirates from Pomern were famous for their legitimised
piracy in Baltic by the Pomern Princes, but this was something
happening actually after time of Vikings. Could the pirates from
Pomern(Pomorze) also be targeting earlier returning Vikings
from their dangerous campaignes with their loot on their viking
boats? History is silent on that subject.
Do you know that there is no living description of how
Slav boats were looking like? I didn't found any one for sure.
My unanswered question is: Were Slavonic boats by any
chance similiar to boats of Vikings?
Do you know that many Polish today have red hairs
like Norwegians? It is possible their ancestors were
assimilated by some Slavonic clans.
So you see it is very unknown by "correct" scientifical history
why actually Vikings didn't raid Slavonic shores (Pomorze - city
of Szczecin) and shores of Poland (Pomorze Gdanskie - city
of Gdansk). Historytells on the other side are not "correct"
scientyfical history and are not a subject for researches and I didn't
research 'em too, but I guess they could tell us a lot. One is clear
in view of "correct" scientifical history. Vikings didn't raid and
plunder Slav and Slavonic cities and there is no official explaination
to that.
There is lot of European history not told in Western Europe,
where Slav from Central Europe were involved. Maybe it is a legal
ground for claiming international conspiracy? I don't know. I know
that politics of cleansing from everything what is Polish was an
official politics from year 1795 to 1918 and was conducted by Rusia,
Austria, Germany and their allies. This is on the contrary very
"correct" scientifically historical fact.
Pan Piotr Glownia
--
Motto: "Za nasza wolnosc starodawna!"
Z powiedzenia naszych rodow/rodakow z czasu ksiecia Mieszka I.
Motto: "Za wolnosc nasza i wasza!"
Z powiedzenia naszych rodow/rodakow i spokrewnionych
z nami 47 litewskich rodow/rodakow.
Motto: "Za Wolnosc i Niepodleglosc nasza i wasza"
Haslo walk niepodleglosciowych.
Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski
: Do you know that many Polish today have red hairs
: like Norwegians? It is possible their ancestors were
: assimilated by some Slavonic clans.
I have never seen a red-haired Norwegian (neither a Swede). On the
other hand, natural redheads are more of the Irish ancestry, and in
Poland they are a living reminder of horrific history of Irish
attacts on peaceful Slavic tribes near Vistula river shores. Needless
to say, Irish invaders forcibly brought Catholicism to Poland in mid Xth
century. The rest is history..
Leszek
---
Smart questions to stupid answers
Pisz z sensem - rob dwie spacje po kropce
Katarzyna Kolaczkowska
Kurhan, for gods' sake!
> Pan Piotr Glownia
The Spelling Troll
Artur Skura
>> number of Viking worriers' "kurchan" graves. So were Vikings
> ^^^^^^^
>Kurhan, for gods' sake!
Let's break even: kurchan for worriers, kurhan for warriors.
The former never stop worrying.
>> Pan Piotr Glownia
>
>The Spelling Troll
>
Pan Troll
Katarzyna Kolaczkowska
> The former never stop worrying.
If they're reading this froup, I can understand the reason fairly well :>
> Pan Troll
Trollwomyn
beachboy
spoleczenstwa ma krew Wikingow. Dlatego ciekawe by bylo zrobic takie
testy w Polsce. Podejrzewam ze duza czesc spoleczenstwa w Polsce ma
domieszke krwi od Zydow, Francuzow (po armii Napoleona), Szwedow (po
szwedzkiej okupacji), Niemieckiej (po niemieckiej okupacji), tatarskiej
po najazdach Tatarow oraz oczywiscie zdrowa krew radziecka po przejsciu
Armii Czerwonej plus krew z wielu innych europejskich panstw i napewno
Wikingow.
~~~~~
Katarzyna Kolaczkowska
Hehe. A pozniej w gazetach pojawilyby sie naglowki typu 'fala samobojstw
przybiera na sile... Zydzi mimo woli nie chca zyc z ta swiadomoscia...' :>
Azazelle
Artur Skura
Powiedz, a ma to jakies znaczenie?
Pozdrowienia,
Artur
Artur Skura
A wiesz, ze to niezly pomysl - od razu zniknelaby rasistowska czesc
Polonii :)
Pozdrowienia,
Artur
SBobrow940
najpierw wypadl z zyly rogaty helm Wikinga, potem czapka-pierog Napoleona,
papacha bolszewicka...
mycka zydowska... No dobrze, a gdzie jest rogatywka?
Jak wiadomo DNA powstaje z flagi narodowej.
S.B.
--------z DNA-----------------------
Subject: Re: Vikings and Poland?
From: cali...@webtv.net (beachboy)
Date: 5/28/01 5:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <6689-3B1...@storefull-156.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
Jack R. Badura
Hi A lot.
The most beuatiful weman are in Iceland.
Viking made expedition to steel them in Poland and Slavic lands.
Obviously they picked up a the best and prime specimens and took them
into Iceland.
They are gorgeous blond by thousands therem drink so much that an
"average man falls of the chair like a stone. When they squize you you
lose you breath. If you last to have sex with them thet will tell you
that you are not a VIKING.
Go explore VIKING history.
Jack
Yours very truly,
Jack R. Badura
May I invite you to visit my WEB SITE
http://www.jrbadura.com
jer...@newsguy.com
says...
Really? Do the have most beautiful "weman" on Iceland? What is "weman"?
>Viking made expedition to steel them in Poland and Slavic lands.
>
"Viking made expeditions"? Is it Swahili or Urdu (it can't be English)?
"To steel them"? Was it stainless steel, Mr Badura?
>
>Obviously they picked up a the best and prime specimens
"a best and prime specimens"?
Chwala Przedwiecznemu!
Dopoki tak, a nie inaczej wyglada wasza (pardon my French) _elita_ - pozyjemy
jeszcze troche!
:-)))
J.M.
Andreas Thomsen
>
> In article <f33e00ab.01052...@posting.google.com>, esta...@att.net
> (Ed Stasiak) wrote:
> >How much interaction was there between Poland and the Vikings?
> >It seems that while the Vikings were raiding/trading/conquering all over
> >Europe they left the Poles alone, yet Poland was just across the Baltic.
> >Did the Vikings ever raid Poland?
> >
> >Thanks for any info
> >Edzio
>
<http://www.wolin.pl/> - have a look at "wikingowie". there seems
to be a regular festival of the wikings in the small city of
Wolin on the pomeranian island of the same name.
It appears that ancient Wolin (probably identical with the
historical port of Jumne and the rather mythical sunken city
of Vineta) was an important slavic trade center on the shores of
the Baltic sea, even before there was a kingdom or state of Poland.
On the other hand, I doubt that the nearby city of Szczecin
played any role in the times of the Vikings.
<
> I have couple information that may be useful to you
> in that matter, as I have been quite interested in ancient
> history of pre-Poland slavonic tribes.
>
> Why Vikings didn't raid Poland?
>
> In west there is one theory on that subject: In Poland weren't
> any rich and famous cities to raid for gold and treasures.
> Contradiction to this theory existed in form of the very rich and
> already famous in Northern Europe in times of ancient Rome
> the ancient trade cities Gdansk and Szczecin, where the famous
> tradelines of Roman traders to Northern Europe frequently ended.
What is often overlooked is that at the time of the Vikings, there
were populations ("people") living more or less independently along
the shores of the Baltic sea that are almost forgotten today, and that
Vikings and Slavonic people were almost neighbours. The southernmost
Viking city along the shores of the Baltic sea was Haithabu/Hedeby
- today the city of Schleswig in German Schleswig-Holstein near the
Danish border. (Parenthesis: Around there lived the Germanic people
of so-called Angeln (Anglos), and a little south, almost until River
Rhine, the Saxons - some of them together invaded Britain as so-called
Anglo-Saxons). Some 50 km or so along the coast, between the present
day German cities of Kiel and Luebeck lived the slavic people of
Wagrien.
The names of the German cities of Eutin and Luebeck in fact are
derived from slavic languages. East of Luebeck there were from West
to East the slavic Obodrites, the Rugians, the Pomeranians
(around Szczecin), and the Kaszubs (near Gdansk). That was before
there was a Polish state, and before Germany formed a true nation.
The southernmost Viking city of Haithabu - at that time a very
important port because dominating the trade between Baltic and North
sea across the narrow landstrip between the two - was destroyed by an
attacking enemy, and never recovered from that attack.
There are two theories: one says that the ennemy was Norwegian -
and thus from a different Viking tribe, the other says that it was
attacked by a neighbouring slavic people.
Anyhow, as Vikings traded from Russia to Spain, we can be sure they
had intensive contacts with their Slavic neighbours along the Baltic
shore, whether their descendants later became Polish or Germans.
See above for Szczecin and Wolin.
> Notorius Vikings after succeded battles used to drink
> "miod". "Miod" is a Viking word for "honey" as it is in Polish
> too. Though when Viking were spelling that word it sounded
> to us Polish more like "mied" then "miod". Nordic word for
> "honey" is actually "honung". Strange, isn't it?
The corresponding word in old German is "Met" for honey wine.
>
> Do you know that islands Bornholm and Rugia were
> Slavonic land in Roman Empire's ancient times?
>
Rugia was inhabited by the Rugians (obviously) whose descendants
later became Pomeranians and finally Germans. AFAIK that was rather
about 500-600, when the Roman Empire had almost disappeared.
> The pirates from Pomern were famous for their legitimised
> piracy in Baltic by the Pomern Princes, but this was something
> happening actually after time of Vikings. Could the pirates from
> Pomern(Pomorze) also be targeting earlier returning Vikings
> from their dangerous campaignes with their loot on their viking
> boats? History is silent on that subject.
Could you be more specific about those pirates ? I know of
the legitimized pirates of neighbouring Mecklemburgia fighting
against Danish and Hansa ships.
> Do you know that there is no living description of how
> Slav boats were looking like? I didn't found any one for sure.
> My unanswered question is: Were Slavonic boats by any
> chance similiar to boats of Vikings?
>
> Do you know that many Polish today have red hairs
> like Norwegians? It is possible their ancestors were
> assimilated by some Slavonic clans.
>
Oh well ...
> So you see it is very unknown by "correct" scientifical history
> why actually Vikings didn't raid Slavonic shores (Pomorze - city
> of Szczecin) and shores of Poland (Pomorze Gdanskie - city
> of Gdansk). Historytells on the other side are not "correct"
> scientyfical history and are not a subject for researches and I didn't
> research 'em too, but I guess they could tell us a lot. One is clear
> in view of "correct" scientifical history. Vikings didn't raid and
> plunder Slav and Slavonic cities and there is no official explaination
> to that.
>
See above for a theory that slavonic tribes might have raided and
efficiently destroyed an important Viking city ...
> There is lot of European history not told in Western Europe,
> where Slav from Central Europe were involved. Maybe it is a legal
> ground for claiming international conspiracy? I don't know.
Sure ! Absolutely ! What a joker is in a game of cards,
is a good conspiracy theory in any historical debate. :-))
> I know
> that politics of cleansing from everything what is Polish was an
> official politics from year 1795 to 1918 and was conducted by Rusia,
> Austria, Germany and their allies. This is on the contrary very
> "correct" scientifically historical fact.
>
Please don't mix up centuries ! And mind: not every slavic people
belongs to the Polish nation. Ask the Czechs ! :-))
regards,
A.
> Pan Piotr Glownia
> --
> Motto: "Za nasza wolnosc starodawna!"
> Z powiedzenia naszych rodow/rodakow z czasu ksiecia Mieszka I.
> Motto: "Za wolnosc nasza i wasza!"
> Z powiedzenia naszych rodow/rodakow i spokrewnionych
> z nami 47 litewskich rodow/rodakow.
> Motto: "Za Wolnosc i Niepodleglosc nasza i wasza"
> Haslo walk niepodleglosciowych.
--
Andreas Thomsen
email: tho...@uni-bonn.de
Jack R. Badura
Hi Jerzy,
Instructive post - addressing the topic very well as well.
Will improve - but do not really have time to argue nothingness with
precission.
Take care.
Jack
Yours very truly,
patient
Andreas Thomsen wrote:
>
>
> >
> Just a little hint:
> <http://www.wolin.pl/> - have a look at "wikingowie". there seems
> to be a regular festival of the wikings in the small city of
> Wolin on the pomeranian island of the same name.
> It appears that ancient Wolin (probably identical with the
> historical port of Jumne and the rather mythical sunken city
> of Vineta) was an important slavic trade center on the shores of
> the Baltic sea, even before there was a kingdom or state of Poland.
>
> On the other hand, I doubt that the nearby city of Szczecin
> played any role in the times of the Vikings.
>
It seems the Volhynians and other Pomeranian and Polabian Slavs
played the Vikings, sort of. This would explain the absence
of the Vikings in their lands. At any rate, they were tributaries
of Denmark, sometimes.
Pan Piotr Glownia
>Pan Piotr Glownia wrote:
>>
>> In article <f33e00ab.01052...@posting.google.com>,
> esta...@att.net
>> (Ed Stasiak) wrote:
>> >How much interaction was there between Poland and the Vikings?
>> >It seems that while the Vikings were raiding/trading/conquering all over
>> >Europe they left the Poles alone, yet Poland was just across the Baltic.
>> >Did the Vikings ever raid Poland?
>> >
>> >Thanks for any info
>> >Edzio
>>
>Just a little hint:
><http://www.wolin.pl/> - have a look at "wikingowie". there seems
>to be a regular festival of the wikings in the small city of
>Wolin on the pomeranian island of the same name.
>It appears that ancient Wolin (probably identical with the
>historical port of Jumne and the rather mythical sunken city
>of Vineta) was an important slavic trade center on the shores of
>the Baltic sea, even before there was a kingdom or state of Poland.
>
> On the other hand, I doubt that the nearby city of Szczecin
>played any role in the times of the Vikings.
Yeah, I know that all except of that ancient Viking festival
thing on Wolin.
I did learn however that ancient Vineta wasn't on
island Wolin but on island Rugia( it's a german name).
I know that nearby principality of Szczecin started to play
a role of the leader of the region (the Wolin region) after the
tragedy of the ancient tradecity Vineta before the great times
of Vikings.
Interesting indeed.
> Anyhow, as Vikings traded from Russia to Spain, we can be sure they
>had intensive contacts with their Slavic neighbours along the Baltic
>shore, whether their descendants later became Polish or Germans.
Most probably I do agree as membership in Slavonic
tribes never was based on race purity, but on kin relationship.
Sure. IMO this battle opened Baltic Sea for Vikings,
so they could travel west without being harrasment on their
way home. Though it my little theory and fact of that battle
is actually historical fact.
>> Notorius Vikings after succeded battles used to drink
>> "miod". "Miod" is a Viking word for "honey" as it is in Polish
>> too. Though when Viking were spelling that word it sounded
>> to us Polish more like "mied" then "miod". Nordic word for
>> "honey" is actually "honung". Strange, isn't it?
>
>The corresponding word in old German is "Met" for honey wine.
Interesting.
>> Do you know that islands Bornholm and Rugia were
>> Slavonic land in Roman Empire's ancient times?
>
> Rugia was inhabited by the Rugians (obviously) whose descendants
>later became Pomeranians and finally Germans. AFAIK that was rather
>about 500-600, when the Roman Empire had almost disappeared.
Yeah, right.
>> The pirates from Pomern were famous for their legitimised
>> piracy in Baltic by the Pomern Princes, but this was something
>> happening actually after time of Vikings. Could the pirates from
>> Pomern(Pomorze) also be targeting earlier returning Vikings
>> from their dangerous campaignes with their loot on their viking
>> boats? History is silent on that subject.
>
> Could you be more specific about those pirates ? I know of
>the legitimized pirates of neighbouring Mecklemburgia fighting
>against Danish and Hansa ships.
Sorry. I don't remember the book's title now. As I
understand it was something commonly known in its time
up to XVIII century, when last germanized slavonic prince
of Pomern died and Prusian took over east and Swedish west
part of it.
>> Do you know that there is no living description of how
>> Slav boats were looking like? I didn't found any one for sure.
>> My unanswered question is: Were Slavonic boats by any
>> chance similiar to boats of Vikings?
>>
>> Do you know that many Polish today have red hairs
>> like Norwegians? It is possible their ancestors were
>> assimilated by some Slavonic clans.
>>
>
> Oh well ...
:-))
Nothing scientifical indeed.
>> So you see it is very unknown by "correct" scientifical history
>> why actually Vikings didn't raid Slavonic shores (Pomorze - city
>> of Szczecin) and shores of Poland (Pomorze Gdanskie - city
>> of Gdansk). Historytells on the other side are not "correct"
>> scientyfical history and are not a subject for researches and I didn't
>> research 'em too, but I guess they could tell us a lot. One is clear
>> in view of "correct" scientifical history. Vikings didn't raid and
>> plunder Slav and Slavonic cities and there is no official explaination
>> to that.
>>
>
> See above for a theory that slavonic tribes might have raided and
>efficiently destroyed an important Viking city ...
It could be also some barbarian nomad tribe, which
rided also Roman teritory. Vandals, Visigots and couple
more as I am not mistaken.
>> There is lot of European history not told in Western Europe,
>> where Slav from Central Europe were involved. Maybe it is a legal
>> ground for claiming international conspiracy? I don't know.
>
>Sure ! Absolutely ! What a joker is in a game of cards,
>is a good conspiracy theory in any historical debate. :-))
I do agree :-))
>> I know
>> that politics of cleansing from everything what is Polish was an
>> official politics from year 1795 to 1918 and was conducted by Rusia,
>> Austria, Germany and their allies. This is on the contrary very
>> "correct" scientifically historical fact.
>>
>
>Please don't mix up centuries ! And mind: not every slavic people
>belongs to the Polish nation. Ask the Czechs ! :-))
>
>regards,
>
>A.
Sure. Not every Lech or Rusin tribe is member
of Polish Nation. You can just ask Pomeranians.
I just noticed something that happened already
once in European history. Is impossible asumption
that this kind of selectivity still is preserved in West
Europe? Tell me for example what countries troopes
defended city Tobruk? Which particular nationality
were troops commonly adressed as desert rats?
From British historians I learned they were all entirely
Brits.
Andreas Thomsen
I learnt that Rugia was a slavic name - never mind, there are so many
linguistic roots in common...
As for Vineta/Jumne - the newest theory is I think that it was situated
somewhere on the mainland _west_ of Rugia island. The reason is to be
that a bishop of Bremen who first mentioned the slavic trade city of
Jumne (supposed to be the mythical Vineta) on the Baltic sea wrote
something like it was on the mouth of river Odra/Oder. Today,
this would let Wolin, or Swinoujscie seem to be the proper place to
search for Vineta, but some Archaeologists claim that 1300 years ago,
river Peene, one of the three outlets of river Odra, did take a
different
course meeting the Baltic sea to the west of the present city of
Stralsund. I have no idea whether this theory can claim any
plausibility.
[...]
> >> The pirates from Pomern were famous for their legitimised
> >> piracy in Baltic by the Pomern Princes, but this was something
> >> happening actually after time of Vikings. Could the pirates from
> >> Pomern(Pomorze) also be targeting earlier returning Vikings
> >> from their dangerous campaignes with their loot on their viking
> >> boats? History is silent on that subject.
> >
> > Could you be more specific about those pirates ? I know of
> >the legitimized pirates of neighbouring Mecklemburgia fighting
> >against Danish and Hansa ships.
>
> Sorry. I don't remember the book's title now. As I
> understand it was something commonly known in its time
> up to XVIII century, when last germanized slavonic prince
> of Pomern died and Prusian took over east and Swedish west
> part of it.
Maybe there's a confusion here ? the legitimized pirates may also
have been from the rich pomeranian city of Stralsund - in those times
already rather a German place. But in the middle ages, the question
of nationality was seen in a different way than today.
[...]
> >
> > See above for a theory that slavonic tribes might have raided and
> >efficiently destroyed an important Viking city ...
>
> It could be also some barbarian nomad tribe, which
> rided also Roman teritory. Vandals, Visigots and couple
> more as I am not mistaken.
>
Those were quite different times. Haithabu was raided in the 11th
century. Trace of Visigots and Vandals was lost about 400 or 500
years earlier.
> >> There is lot of European history not told in Western Europe,
> >> where Slav from Central Europe were involved. Maybe it is a legal
> >> ground for claiming international conspiracy? I don't know.
> >
> >Sure ! Absolutely ! What a joker is in a game of cards,
> >is a good conspiracy theory in any historical debate. :-))
>
> I do agree :-))
>
> >> I know
> >> that politics of cleansing from everything what is Polish was an
> >> official politics from year 1795 to 1918 and was conducted by Rusia,
> >> Austria, Germany and their allies. This is on the contrary very
> >> "correct" scientifically historical fact.
> >>
> >
> >Please don't mix up centuries ! And mind: not every slavic people
> >belongs to the Polish nation. Ask the Czechs ! :-))
> >
> Sure. Not every Lech or Rusin tribe is member
> of Polish Nation. You can just ask Pomeranians.
> I just noticed something that happened already
> once in European history. Is impossible asumption
> that this kind of selectivity still is preserved in West
> Europe? Tell me for example what countries troopes
> defended city Tobruk? Which particular nationality
> were troops commonly adressed as desert rats?
> From British historians I learned they were all entirely
> Brits.
It used to be Lech, _Czech_ i Rus, right ? Don't leave out
the Czechs, who still like to greet each other by the sailors'
call 'Ahoj', though Bohemia has ceased to touch the shores
of any sea since Shakespear's times.
And, by the way - when did Lech, Czech i Rus leave their
common home to arrive in their present countries ? Wasn't that
well _after_ Roman times ?
regards,
A.
Pan Piotr Glownia
>
>I learnt that Rugia was a slavic name - never mind, there are so many
>linguistic roots in common...
Maybe it was Slovanic, but so many places in Germany
changed names or their sounding that...
>As for Vineta/Jumne - the newest theory is I think that it was situated
>somewhere on the mainland _west_ of Rugia island. The reason is to be
>that a bishop of Bremen who first mentioned the slavic trade city of
>Jumne (supposed to be the mythical Vineta) on the Baltic sea wrote
>something like it was on the mouth of river Odra/Oder. Today,
>this would let Wolin, or Swinoujscie seem to be the proper place to
>search for Vineta, but some Archaeologists claim that 1300 years ago,
>river Peene, one of the three outlets of river Odra, did take a different
>course meeting the Baltic sea to the west of the present city of
>Stralsund. I have no idea whether this theory can claim any
>plausibility.
If we suppose that Odra was meeting Baltic more to the west
then today and if sand shifted on Rugia so it was more part of
coastline, then isn't Rugia any near becoming the mouth of river Odra?
>Maybe there's a confusion here ? the legitimized pirates may also
>have been from the rich pomeranian city of Stralsund - in those times
>already rather a German place. But in the middle ages, the question
>of nationality was seen in a different way than today.
In that case maybe you right, but was Stralsund
belonging to the Pomeranian Price?
>Those were quite different times. Haithabu was raided in the 11th
>century. Trace of Visigots and Vandals was lost about 400 or 500
>years earlier.
So you are saying it happened in time of christian
crusaides on central Europe and you have on list with
potential perpetraters only some peaceful, poor,
underarmed and on friendly foot with Vikings a Slavonic
tribe? Huh? Is that what you are trying to say?
>> Sure. Not every Lech or Rusin tribe is member
>> of Polish Nation. You can just ask Pomeranians.
>> I just noticed something that happened already
>> once in European history. Is impossible asumption
>> that this kind of selectivity still is preserved in West
>> Europe? Tell me for example what countries troopes
>> defended city Tobruk? Which particular nationality
>> were troops commonly adressed as desert rats?
>> From British historians I learned they were all entirely
>> Brits.
>
>It used to be Lech, _Czech_ i Rus, right ? Don't leave out
>the Czechs, who still like to greet each other by the sailors'
>call 'Ahoj', though Bohemia has ceased to touch the shores
>of any sea since Shakespear's times.
>And, by the way - when did Lech, Czech i Rus leave their
>common home to arrive in their present countries ? Wasn't that
>well _after_ Roman times ?
>
>regards,
>A.
I have to leave out the Czech. They are no Polish, but
Czech, because of partition of "Slowianszczyzna" or "Gniezno
state" as Poland was called 1000-600 years ago. This final
partitionon of "Slowianszczyzna"(=Slav land) on Kingdom of Poland
(Rusins and Lech) and Kingdom of Czech (Czech) occured in XV
century. Poland is actually XV century name for my country and
came from popular between Polish knights word "polani"
(=christianized).
I think that Serb tribes invaded the Roman Empire and not
the East Roman Empire. My guess is that final partition on Lech,
Rus and Czech took place with end of the Luzycka culture some
time between 1000-400 years BC. The legends give one clear
explanation why this partition happened: overpopulation. This
explanation is also very likely the true reason particularly
because of the way of life of Slavonic ancient tribes, which is very
similiar to way of living of Neandrenthals. Smal families or clans
occupied usually quite large areas. In Poland this way of life
was kept until XV century when colonist from West Europe
more then doubled population of Poland turning great areas of
woodland to farmland.
Andreas Thomsen
Have a look at:
<http://www.mvnet.de/inmv/hst/eng/hstgesch.html>
"On October 13th, 1234, Witzlaw I Prince of Rügen granted the
settlement at the sound the status of a town. Several Gothic
buildings (churches, the town hall, monasteries, burgher
houses) still prove the rapid development of the young
community. Trade and shipping crystallized as the most
important sectors of the town's rise, a fact which is revealed
by port regulations issued already in 1278, and, in particular,
by Stralsund joining the Hanseatic League at the end of the
13th century. The economic rise ran parallel to an increase
in political strength in opposition to the town ruler, who
first was the Prince of Rügen and, from 1326, the Duke of
Pomerania."
The dukes of Pomerania ruled over "Vorpommern" (Pomerania
"before" river Odra/Oder, seen from the German side), which
now is part of the German state Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,
with cities Stralsund, Greifswald and until 1945 Stettin,
and "Hinterpommern" ("behind" river Odra) which after 1945
became Polish Pomorze Zachodnie with such cities as
Kolobrzeg/Kolberg, Koszalin/Koeslin, Starogard/Stargard etc.
After the 30 years war, Sweden got most of Vorpommern, and
Brandenburg (later called Prussia) got Hinterpommern.
After 1815, both parts were under Prussian rule.
> >Those were quite different times. Haithabu was raided in the 11th
> >century. Trace of Visigots and Vandals was lost about 400 or 500
> >years earlier.
>
> So you are saying it happened in time of christian
> crusaides on central Europe and you have on list with
> potential perpetraters only some peaceful, poor,
> underarmed and on friendly foot with Vikings a Slavonic
> tribe? Huh? Is that what you are trying to say?
I'm not trying to say anything - its just something like
"hearsay". Those nordic settlements were rather small, and
a small group of people was sufficient to destroy a city.
It is essential, however, that the destroyers did come
from the Baltic sea, and thus may have come from anywhere.
The loss of importance after rebuilding the city some km
away under the name of "Slesvig" may be rather due to the
growth of strength of the Danish kingdom to the north,
and smaller German duchies to the south, as the place was
at the southern border of Denmark, and also to the fact that
later ships became too big to be drawn across the land
separating the fjord of the Baltic sea and a river leading
to the North sea. As a residence of the dukes it kept a
limited importance until the beginning of the 20th century.
Mind that both Vikings and Slavs at the time we ware talking
about were being christianized. And that there were essentially
two related "cruisades" in central Europe: against the Prus
people - on invitation of the christian king of Poland, to
protect the development of the region near river Vistula from
barbaric inraids, and a little later against the Latvian
people on the Baltic shore, North-East of the Prus.
Otherwise, I did not hear of any "cruisades" in that
part of Europe.
regards,
A.
--
Andreas Thomsen
email: tho...@uni-bonn.de
Andreas Thomsen
>
> Pan Piotr Glownia wrote:
[...]
> >
> > In that case maybe you right, but was Stralsund
> > belonging to the Pomeranian Price?
> >
>
> Have a look at:
>
> <http://www.mvnet.de/inmv/hst/eng/hstgesch.html>
There's a short history of "Vorpommern" (Pomerania west of river Odra)
at <http://www.all-in-all.com/english/0053.htm>
A.
patient
Andreas Thomsen wrote:
>
>
>
> Mind that both Vikings and Slavs at the time we ware talking
> about were being christianized. And that there were essentially
> two related "cruisades" in central Europe: against the Prus
> people - on invitation of the christian king of Poland,
No, Poland didn't have a king at that time. That was
one of the regional princes - Konrad of Mazovia.
> to protect the development of the region near river Vistula from
> barbaric inraids,
More precisely, just Konrad's Mazovian principality.
> and a little later against the Latvian
Lithuanian.
Andreas Thomsen
>
> Andreas Thomsen wrote:
> >
>
> >
> >
> > Mind that both Vikings and Slavs at the time we ware talking
> > about were being christianized. And that there were essentially
> > two related "cruisades" in central Europe: against the Prus
> > people - on invitation of the christian king of Poland,
>
> No, Poland didn't have a king at that time. That was
> one of the regional princes - Konrad of Mazovia.
>
> > to protect the development of the region near river Vistula from
> > barbaric inraids,
>
> More precisely, just Konrad's Mazovian principality.
>
right
> > and a little later against the Latvian
>
> Lithuanian.
>
> > people on the Baltic shore, North-East of the Prus.
> > Otherwise, I did not hear of any "cruisades" in that
> > part of Europe.
> >
Let us be more precise - the Viking era ended in the 12th century,
when they were all christianized and started to integrate into
the European feudal system. Attempts of christianization and
conquest of the countries along the shores of the Baltic
sea, began in the 9th centrury (Meklenburgia) rsp. at the very end
of the 10th century (Prussia). So there was a time of overlap, when
both Vikings and Slavic people, as well as the non-slavic people
east of the mouth of river Vistula counted among the heathen
neighbours of the christian countries of central Europe.
The cruisaders came into the Baltic countries in the beginning of
the 13th century, when most of the people there still were heathen.
The "Order of the Sword", fellow order to the "Teutonic Order" (aka
"order of the Cross") established itself in "Kurland and Livland",
i.e. what is today Latvia, and in parts of Lithuania.
By uniting its forces with those of Poland, Lithuania in the 14th
century _escaped_ from the sort of "pacification" imposed upon the
Prus and the other Baltic people. BTW: at the time of the Teutonic
Order, noblemen from all over north western Europe used to gather
in Koenigsberg to prepare themselves for raids into Livland.
This was an affair of nobility, with no much regard to nationality,
though obviously the greatest number of them was from Germany.
German or Dutch settlers, farmers etc did not take part in such
activities, whereas the noblemen from Germany and other parts
of North Western Europe succeeded in establishing themselves
as a class of Barons/ Land owners in Latvia and to some degree
in Estonia, and stay as such even under Russian Czarist rule,
whereas there was no large scale immigration of German/Dutch farmers,
artisans etc. Such colonization did not take place in most of
Lithuania, which was united with Poland.
I cannot supply more details, because I'm no historian, and
gathered such bits of superficial information from different sources.
regards,
A.
Andreas Thomsen
>
> patient wrote:
> >
[...]
>
> The cruisaders came into the Baltic countries in the beginning of
> the 13th century, when most of the people there still were heathen.
> The "Order of the Sword", fellow order to the "Teutonic Order" (aka
> "order of the Cross") established itself in "Kurland and Livland",
> i.e. what is today Latvia, and in parts of Lithuania.
>
Can you read Latvian ? I can't, but at least I can see the dates
and names mentioned in the following WWW site:
http://home.parks.lv/latvietis/36_64septembris/lapa2.htm
As I cannot understand it, please don't take me as responsible for
the contents ... (among a discussion of 13th century matters, the
word "atombumba" appears ... ?)
stephen.car...@gmail.com
Stephen Walker
Hreczecha
> How much interaction was there between Poland and the Vikings?
> It seems that while the Vikings were raiding/trading/conquering all over
> Europe they left the Poles alone, yet Poland was just across the Baltic.
> Did the Vikings ever raid Poland?
>
> Thanks for any info
> Edzio
Hreczecha
u2
beard is the final proof of his Viking ancestry
--
General Skalski o zydach w UB :
"Rozanski, Zyd, kanalia najgorszego gatunku, razem z Brystigerowa,
Fejginami, to wszystko (...) nie byli ludzie."
prof. PAN Krzysztof Jasiewicz o zydach :
"Zydow gubi brak umiaru we wszystkim i przekonanie, ze sa narodem
wybranym. Czuja sie oni upowaznieni do interpretowania wszystkiego,
takze doktryny katolickiej. Cokolwiek bysmy zrobili, i tak bedzie
poddane ich krytyce - za malo, ze zle, ze zbyt malo ofiarnie. W moim
najglebszym przekonaniu szkoda czasu na dialog z Zydami, bo on do
niczego nie prowadzi... Ludzi, ktorzy uzywają slow 'antysemita',
'antysemicki', nalezy traktowac jak ludzi niegodnych debaty, ktorzy
usiluja niszczyc innych, gdy brakuje argumentow merytorycznych. To oni
tworza mowe nienawisci".
George Orwell :
"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people
what they do not want to hear"
Hreczecha
> W dniu 26.01.2019 o 18:10, Hreczecha pisze:
> > On Saturday, January 26, 2019 at 10:59:00 AM UTC-6, Hreczecha wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 25, 2001 at 11:23:57 AM UTC-5, Ed Stasiak wrote:
> >>> How much interaction was there between Poland and the Vikings?
> >>> It seems that while the Vikings were raiding/trading/conquering all over
> >>> Europe they left the Poles alone, yet Poland was just across the Baltic.
> >>> Did the Vikings ever raid Poland?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for any info
> >>> Edzio
> >>
> >>
> >> Ed: How is your Polish? The reason I am asking: There is lots of work about the presence of Vikings in Poland. In fact, one of the hypotheses about the first Prince of Poland, Mieszko I suggests that he was a viking.
> >
> > There is a consensus among historians that Vikings served in Mieszko's personal brigade (druzyna ksiazeca).
> >
>
> yeap that`s true, Mieszko I was a Viking himself, look at his image, his
> beard is the final proof of his Viking ancestry
>
u2
>> beard is the final proof of his Viking ancestry
>>
> What images?
Hreczecha
> W dniu 26.01.2019 o 18:35, skucha pisze:
> >> yeap that`s true, Mieszko I was a Viking himself, look at his image, his
> >> beard is the final proof of his Viking ancestry
> >>
> > What images?
>
>
u2
from a small point (do not mistake with small pox), that small point is
a whole world now
Toledano
His real name was Mosiek and he was a Jew.
Toledano
Any thing real, like written documents?
u2
Toledano
> yeap that`s true, Mieszko I was a Viking himself, look at his image, his
> beard is the final proof of his Viking ancestry
u2
Taras Bulba
Michał Babilas
Cudze ganicie, swego nie znacie - skandalizującą powieść Damiana Barda
"Kod Jana Matejki" nie doczekała się dotychczas słów potępienia, na
jakie zasługuje!
W Muzeum Narodowym w Warszawie zamordowano portiera, Stanisława
Chociebuskiego. Jego zwłoki zostały znalezione pod obrazem Jana Matejki
"Zawieszenie dzwonu Zygmunta", w takiej pozycji, jakby robił orla na
śniegu. Zagadkowe okoliczności śmierci portiera naprowadzają policje na
coraz bardziej sensacyjne watki: okazuje się, ze tło morderstwa nie było
czysto kryminalne, lecz związane z tajemnica od wieków skrzętnie
ukrywana przez Episkopat Polski.
Stanisław Chociebuski przed śmiercią zdążył zostawić zakodowana
wiadomość, a jego ciało jest częścią szyfru. Mogą go złamać jedynie
wnuczka portiera, Bella Rapaport, kryptograf z komendy stołecznej
policji, oraz przybyły do Warszawy ze Stanów Zjednoczonych historyk
sztuki, znawca szkoły monachijskiej, specjalizujący się w twórczości
Jana Matejki.
Zagadka zostaje rozwikłana: w katedrze gnieźnieńskiej w ręce policji
wpada dokument Dagome Iudex, rzekomo zaginiony, faktycznie zaś ukrywany
tam, w sarkofagu sw. Wojciecha, przez metropolite gnieznienskiego. Prócz
przepisów na mace, gefilte fisz i czulent zawiera on informacje, ze
ksiaze Mieszko I wcale się nie ochrzcil, tylko obrzezal, prawdziwe imię
ksiecia to Mosze, a nie Mieszko, Dabrówka zaś miała na imię Debora.
Kontrowersyjne teorie sformułowane przez autora powieści opierają się
m.in. na badaniach Protokołów Mędrców Syjonu i symboliki Zoharu oraz
kabały lurianskiej.
Kod Jana Matejki budzi ogromne kontrowersje, gdyż stawia pod znakiem
zapytania same korzenie naszego dziedzictwa kulturowego. Damian Bard,
nie dbając o poprawność polityczna, wysuwa poważne oskarżenia pod
adresem polskiego duchowieństwa. Czy rzeczywiście jesteśmy narodem
katolickim? Czy Konferencja Episkopatu Polski uczestniczy w światowym
spisku Mędrców Syjonu? Jakie jeszcze tajemnice na temat naszej historii
narodowej kryją się w diecezjalnych archiwach?