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Interview of Dr. Elhaik: Published 5-7-13
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HHW
May 19, 2013, 7:49:18 PM5/19/13
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Science Feud: Johns Hopkins geneticist Eran Elhaik says his research
debunks the long-held theory that Jews are a single race.
By Rita Rubin
Published May 07, 2013, issue of May 10, 2013.
Related
Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal
Genes Tell Tale of Jewish Ties to Africa
If Jews Are a Race — Which One?
Scientists usually don’t call each other “liars” and “frauds.”
But that’s how Johns Hopkins University post-doctoral researcher Eran
Elhaik describes a group of widely respected geneticists, including
Harry Ostrer, professor of pathology and genetics at Yeshiva
University’s Albert Einstein College of Medicine and author of the
2012 book “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People.”
For years now, the findings of Ostrer and several other scientists
have stood virtually unchallenged on the genetics of Jews and the
story they tell of the common Middle East origins shared by many
Jewish populations worldwide. Jews — and Ashkenazim in particular —
are indeed one people, Ostrer’s research finds.
It’s a theory that more or less affirms the understanding that many
Jews themselves hold of who they are in the world: a people who,
though scattered, share an ethnic-racial bond rooted in their common
ancestral descent from the indigenous Jews of ancient Judea or
Palestine, as the Romans called it after they conquered the Jewish
homeland.
But now, Elhaik, an Israeli molecular geneticist, has published
research that he says debunks this claim. And that has set off a
predictable clash.
“He’s just wrong,” said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a
leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik.
The sometimes strong emotions generated by this scientific dispute
stem from a politically loaded question that scientists and others
have pondered for decades: Where in the world did Ashkenazi Jews come
from?
The debate touches upon such sensitive issues as whether the Jewish
people is a race or a religion, and whether Jews or Palestinians are
descended from the original inhabitants of what is now the State of
Israel.
Ostrer’s theory is sometimes marshaled to lend the authority of
science to the Zionist narrative, which views the migration of modern-
day Jews to what is now Israel, and their rule over that land, as a
simple act of repossession by the descendants of the land’s original
residents. Ostrer declined to be interviewed for this story. But in
his writings, Ostrer points out the dangers of such reductionism; some
of the same genetic markers common among Jews, he finds, can be found
in Palestinians, as well.
By using sophisticated molecular tools, Feldman, Ostrer and most other
scientists in the field have found that Jews are genetically
homogeneous. No matter where they live, these scientists say, Jews are
genetically more similar to each other than to their non-Jewish
neighbors, and they have a shared Middle Eastern ancestry.
The geneticists’ research backs up what is known as the Rhineland
Hypothesis. According to the hypothesis, Ashkenazi Jews descended from
Jews who fled Palestine after the Muslim conquest in the seventh
century and settled in Southern Europe. In the late Middle Ages they
moved into eastern Europe from Germany, or the Rhineland.
“Nonsense,” said Elhaik, a 33-year-old Israeli Jew from Beersheba who
earned a doctorate in molecular evolution from the University of
Houston. The son of an Italian man and Iranian woman who met in
Israel, Elhaik, a dark-haired, compact man, sat down recently for an
interview in his bare, narrow cubicle of an office at Hopkins, where
he’s worked for four years.
In “The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the
Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses,” published in December in the
online journal Genome Biology and Evolution, Elhaik says he has proved
that Ashkenazi Jews’ roots lie in the Caucasus — a region at the
border of Europe and Asia that lies between the Black and Caspian seas
— not in the Middle East. They are descendants, he argues, of the
Khazars, a Turkic people who lived in one of the largest medieval
states in Eurasia and then migrated to Eastern Europe in the 12th and
13th centuries. Ashkenazi genes, Elhaik added, are far more
heterogeneous than Ostrer and other proponents of the Rhineland
Hypothesis believe. Elhaik did find a Middle Eastern genetic marker in
DNA from Jews, but, he says, it could be from Iran, not ancient Judea.
Elhaik writes that the Khazars converted to Judaism in the eighth
century, although many historians believe that only royalty and some
members of the aristocracy converted. But widespread conversion by the
Khazars is the only way to explain the ballooning of the European
Jewish population to 8 million at the beginning of the 20th century
from its tiny base in the Middle Ages, Elhaik says.
Elhaik bases his conclusion on an analysis of genetic data published
by a team of researchers led by Doron Behar, a population geneticist
and senior physician at Israel’s Rambam Medical Center, in Haifa.
Using the same data, Behar’s team published in 2010 a paper concluding
that most contemporary Jews around the world and some non-Jewish
populations from the Levant, or Eastern Mediterranean, are closely
related.
Elhaik used some of the same statistical tests as Behar and others,
but he chose different comparisons. Elhaik compared “genetic
signatures” found in Jewish populations with those of modern-day
Armenians and Georgians, which he uses as a stand-in for the long-
extinct Khazarians because they live in the same area as the medieval
state.
“It’s an unrealistic premise,” said University of Arizona geneticist
Michael Hammer, one of Behar’s co-authors, of Elhaik’s paper. Hammer
notes that Armenians have Middle Eastern roots, which, he says, is why
they appeared to be genetically related to Ashkenazi Jews in Elhaik’s
study.
Hammer, who also co-wrote the first paper that showed modern-day
Kohanim are descended from a single male ancestor, calls Elhaik and
other Khazarian Hypothesis proponents “outlier folks… who have a
minority view that’s not supported scientifically. I think the
arguments they make are pretty weak and stretching what we know.”
Feldman, director of Stanford’s Morrison Institute for Population and
Resource Studies, echoes Hammer. “If you take all of the careful
genetic population analysis that has been done over the last 15 years…
there’s no doubt about the common Middle Eastern origin,” he said. He
added that Elhaik’s paper “is sort of a one-off.”
Elhaik’s statistical analysis would not pass muster with most
contemporary scholars, Feldman said: “He appears to be applying the
statistics in a way that gives him different results from what
everybody else has obtained from essentially similar data.”
Elhaik, who doesn’t believe that Moses, Aaron or the 12 Tribes of
Israel ever existed, shrugs off such criticism.
“That’s a circular argument,” he said of the notion that Jews’ and
Armenians’ genetic similarities stem from common ancestors in the
Middle East and not from Khazaria, the area where the Armenians live.
If you believe that, he says, then other non-Jewish populations, such
as Georgian, that are genetically similar to Armenians should be
considered genetically related to Jews, too, “and so on and so forth.”
Dan Graur, Elhaik’s doctoral supervisor at U.H. and a member of the
editorial board of the journal that published his paper, calls his
former student “very ambitious, very independent. That’s what I like.”
Graur, a Romanian-born Jew who served on the faculty of Tel Aviv
University for 22 years before moving 10 years ago to the Houston
school, said Elhaik “writes more provocatively than may be needed, but
it’s his style.” Graur calls Elhaik’s conclusion that Ashkenazi Jews
originated to the east of Germany “a very honest estimate.”
In a news article that accompanied Elhaik’s journal paper, Shlomo
Sand, history professor at Tel Aviv University and author of the
controversial 2009 book “The Invention of the Jewish People,” said the
study vindicated his long-held ideas.
”It’s so obvious for me,” Sand told the journal. “Some people,
historians and even scientists, turn a blind eye to the truth. Once,
to say Jews were a race was anti-Semitic, now to say they’re not a
race is anti-Semitic. It’s crazy how history plays with us.”
The paper has received little coverage in mainstream American media,
but it has attracted the attention of anti-Zionists and “anti-Semitic
white supremacists,” Elhaik said.
Interestingly, while anti-Zionist bloggers have applauded Elhaik’s
work, saying it proves that contemporary Jews have no legitimate claim
to Israel, some white supremacists have attacked it.
David Duke, for example, is disturbed by the assertion that Jews are
not a race. “The disruptive and conflict-ridden behavior which has
marked out Jewish Supremacist activities through the millennia
strongly suggests that Jews have remained more or less genetically
uniform and have… developed a group evolutionary survival strategy
based on a common biological unity — something which strongly
militates against the Khazar theory,” wrote the former Ku Klux
Klansman and former Louisiana state assemblyman on his blog in
February.
“I’m not communicating with them,” Elhaik said of the white
supremacists. He says it also bothers him, a veteran of seven years in
the Israeli army, that anti-Zionists have capitalized on his research;
not least because “they’re not going to be proven wrong anytime soon.”
But proponents of the Rhineland Hypothesis also have a political
agenda, he said, claiming they “were motivated to justify the Zionist
narrative.”
To illustrate his point, Elhaik swivels his chair around to face his
computer and calls up a 2010 email exchange with Ostrer.
“It was a great pleasure reading your group’s recent paper, ‘Abraham’s
Children in the Genome Era,’ that illuminate[s] the history of our
people,” Elhaik wrote to Ostrer. “Is it possible to see the data used
for the study?”
Ostrer replied that the data are not publicly available. “It is
possible to collaborate with the team by writing a brief proposal that
outlines what you plan to do,” he wrote. “Criteria for reviewing
include novelty and strength of the proposal, non-overlap with current
or planned activities, and non-defamatory nature toward the Jewish
people.” That last requirement, Elhaik argues, reveals the bias of
Ostrer and his collaborators.
Allowing scientists access to data only if their research will not
defame Jews is “peculiar,” said Catherine DeAngelis, who edited the
Journal of the American Medical Association for a decade. “What he
does is set himself up for criticism: Wait a minute. What’s this guy
trying to hide?”
Despite what his critics claim, Elhaik says, he was not out to prove
that contemporary Jews have no connection to the Jewish people of the
Bible. His primary research focus is the genetics of mental illness,
which, he explains, led him to question the assumption that Ashkenazi
Jews are a useful population to study because they’re so homogeneous.
Elhaik says he first read about the Khazarian Hypothesis a decade ago
in a 1976 book by the late Hungarian-British author Arthur Koestler,
“The Thirteenth Tribe,” written before scientists had the tools to
compare genomes. Koestler, who was Jewish by birth, said his aim in
writing the book was to eliminate the racist underpinnings of anti-
Semitism in Europe. “Should this theory be confirmed, the term ‘anti-
Semitism’ would become void of meaning,” the book jacket reads.
Although Koestler’s book was generally well reviewed, some skeptics
questioned the author’s grasp of the history of Khazaria.
Graur is not surprised that Elhaik has stood up against the “clique”
of scientists who believe that Jews are genetically homogeneous. “He
enjoys being combative,” Graur said. “That’s what science is.”
Contact Rita Rubin at feed...@forward.com
debunks the long-held theory that Jews are a single race.
By Rita Rubin
Published May 07, 2013, issue of May 10, 2013.
Related
Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal
Genes Tell Tale of Jewish Ties to Africa
If Jews Are a Race — Which One?
Scientists usually don’t call each other “liars” and “frauds.”
But that’s how Johns Hopkins University post-doctoral researcher Eran
Elhaik describes a group of widely respected geneticists, including
Harry Ostrer, professor of pathology and genetics at Yeshiva
University’s Albert Einstein College of Medicine and author of the
2012 book “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People.”
For years now, the findings of Ostrer and several other scientists
have stood virtually unchallenged on the genetics of Jews and the
story they tell of the common Middle East origins shared by many
Jewish populations worldwide. Jews — and Ashkenazim in particular —
are indeed one people, Ostrer’s research finds.
It’s a theory that more or less affirms the understanding that many
Jews themselves hold of who they are in the world: a people who,
though scattered, share an ethnic-racial bond rooted in their common
ancestral descent from the indigenous Jews of ancient Judea or
Palestine, as the Romans called it after they conquered the Jewish
homeland.
But now, Elhaik, an Israeli molecular geneticist, has published
research that he says debunks this claim. And that has set off a
predictable clash.
“He’s just wrong,” said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a
leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik.
The sometimes strong emotions generated by this scientific dispute
stem from a politically loaded question that scientists and others
have pondered for decades: Where in the world did Ashkenazi Jews come
from?
The debate touches upon such sensitive issues as whether the Jewish
people is a race or a religion, and whether Jews or Palestinians are
descended from the original inhabitants of what is now the State of
Israel.
Ostrer’s theory is sometimes marshaled to lend the authority of
science to the Zionist narrative, which views the migration of modern-
day Jews to what is now Israel, and their rule over that land, as a
simple act of repossession by the descendants of the land’s original
residents. Ostrer declined to be interviewed for this story. But in
his writings, Ostrer points out the dangers of such reductionism; some
of the same genetic markers common among Jews, he finds, can be found
in Palestinians, as well.
By using sophisticated molecular tools, Feldman, Ostrer and most other
scientists in the field have found that Jews are genetically
homogeneous. No matter where they live, these scientists say, Jews are
genetically more similar to each other than to their non-Jewish
neighbors, and they have a shared Middle Eastern ancestry.
The geneticists’ research backs up what is known as the Rhineland
Hypothesis. According to the hypothesis, Ashkenazi Jews descended from
Jews who fled Palestine after the Muslim conquest in the seventh
century and settled in Southern Europe. In the late Middle Ages they
moved into eastern Europe from Germany, or the Rhineland.
“Nonsense,” said Elhaik, a 33-year-old Israeli Jew from Beersheba who
earned a doctorate in molecular evolution from the University of
Houston. The son of an Italian man and Iranian woman who met in
Israel, Elhaik, a dark-haired, compact man, sat down recently for an
interview in his bare, narrow cubicle of an office at Hopkins, where
he’s worked for four years.
In “The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the
Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses,” published in December in the
online journal Genome Biology and Evolution, Elhaik says he has proved
that Ashkenazi Jews’ roots lie in the Caucasus — a region at the
border of Europe and Asia that lies between the Black and Caspian seas
— not in the Middle East. They are descendants, he argues, of the
Khazars, a Turkic people who lived in one of the largest medieval
states in Eurasia and then migrated to Eastern Europe in the 12th and
13th centuries. Ashkenazi genes, Elhaik added, are far more
heterogeneous than Ostrer and other proponents of the Rhineland
Hypothesis believe. Elhaik did find a Middle Eastern genetic marker in
DNA from Jews, but, he says, it could be from Iran, not ancient Judea.
Elhaik writes that the Khazars converted to Judaism in the eighth
century, although many historians believe that only royalty and some
members of the aristocracy converted. But widespread conversion by the
Khazars is the only way to explain the ballooning of the European
Jewish population to 8 million at the beginning of the 20th century
from its tiny base in the Middle Ages, Elhaik says.
Elhaik bases his conclusion on an analysis of genetic data published
by a team of researchers led by Doron Behar, a population geneticist
and senior physician at Israel’s Rambam Medical Center, in Haifa.
Using the same data, Behar’s team published in 2010 a paper concluding
that most contemporary Jews around the world and some non-Jewish
populations from the Levant, or Eastern Mediterranean, are closely
related.
Elhaik used some of the same statistical tests as Behar and others,
but he chose different comparisons. Elhaik compared “genetic
signatures” found in Jewish populations with those of modern-day
Armenians and Georgians, which he uses as a stand-in for the long-
extinct Khazarians because they live in the same area as the medieval
state.
“It’s an unrealistic premise,” said University of Arizona geneticist
Michael Hammer, one of Behar’s co-authors, of Elhaik’s paper. Hammer
notes that Armenians have Middle Eastern roots, which, he says, is why
they appeared to be genetically related to Ashkenazi Jews in Elhaik’s
study.
Hammer, who also co-wrote the first paper that showed modern-day
Kohanim are descended from a single male ancestor, calls Elhaik and
other Khazarian Hypothesis proponents “outlier folks… who have a
minority view that’s not supported scientifically. I think the
arguments they make are pretty weak and stretching what we know.”
Feldman, director of Stanford’s Morrison Institute for Population and
Resource Studies, echoes Hammer. “If you take all of the careful
genetic population analysis that has been done over the last 15 years…
there’s no doubt about the common Middle Eastern origin,” he said. He
added that Elhaik’s paper “is sort of a one-off.”
Elhaik’s statistical analysis would not pass muster with most
contemporary scholars, Feldman said: “He appears to be applying the
statistics in a way that gives him different results from what
everybody else has obtained from essentially similar data.”
Elhaik, who doesn’t believe that Moses, Aaron or the 12 Tribes of
Israel ever existed, shrugs off such criticism.
“That’s a circular argument,” he said of the notion that Jews’ and
Armenians’ genetic similarities stem from common ancestors in the
Middle East and not from Khazaria, the area where the Armenians live.
If you believe that, he says, then other non-Jewish populations, such
as Georgian, that are genetically similar to Armenians should be
considered genetically related to Jews, too, “and so on and so forth.”
Dan Graur, Elhaik’s doctoral supervisor at U.H. and a member of the
editorial board of the journal that published his paper, calls his
former student “very ambitious, very independent. That’s what I like.”
Graur, a Romanian-born Jew who served on the faculty of Tel Aviv
University for 22 years before moving 10 years ago to the Houston
school, said Elhaik “writes more provocatively than may be needed, but
it’s his style.” Graur calls Elhaik’s conclusion that Ashkenazi Jews
originated to the east of Germany “a very honest estimate.”
In a news article that accompanied Elhaik’s journal paper, Shlomo
Sand, history professor at Tel Aviv University and author of the
controversial 2009 book “The Invention of the Jewish People,” said the
study vindicated his long-held ideas.
”It’s so obvious for me,” Sand told the journal. “Some people,
historians and even scientists, turn a blind eye to the truth. Once,
to say Jews were a race was anti-Semitic, now to say they’re not a
race is anti-Semitic. It’s crazy how history plays with us.”
The paper has received little coverage in mainstream American media,
but it has attracted the attention of anti-Zionists and “anti-Semitic
white supremacists,” Elhaik said.
Interestingly, while anti-Zionist bloggers have applauded Elhaik’s
work, saying it proves that contemporary Jews have no legitimate claim
to Israel, some white supremacists have attacked it.
David Duke, for example, is disturbed by the assertion that Jews are
not a race. “The disruptive and conflict-ridden behavior which has
marked out Jewish Supremacist activities through the millennia
strongly suggests that Jews have remained more or less genetically
uniform and have… developed a group evolutionary survival strategy
based on a common biological unity — something which strongly
militates against the Khazar theory,” wrote the former Ku Klux
Klansman and former Louisiana state assemblyman on his blog in
February.
“I’m not communicating with them,” Elhaik said of the white
supremacists. He says it also bothers him, a veteran of seven years in
the Israeli army, that anti-Zionists have capitalized on his research;
not least because “they’re not going to be proven wrong anytime soon.”
But proponents of the Rhineland Hypothesis also have a political
agenda, he said, claiming they “were motivated to justify the Zionist
narrative.”
To illustrate his point, Elhaik swivels his chair around to face his
computer and calls up a 2010 email exchange with Ostrer.
“It was a great pleasure reading your group’s recent paper, ‘Abraham’s
Children in the Genome Era,’ that illuminate[s] the history of our
people,” Elhaik wrote to Ostrer. “Is it possible to see the data used
for the study?”
Ostrer replied that the data are not publicly available. “It is
possible to collaborate with the team by writing a brief proposal that
outlines what you plan to do,” he wrote. “Criteria for reviewing
include novelty and strength of the proposal, non-overlap with current
or planned activities, and non-defamatory nature toward the Jewish
people.” That last requirement, Elhaik argues, reveals the bias of
Ostrer and his collaborators.
Allowing scientists access to data only if their research will not
defame Jews is “peculiar,” said Catherine DeAngelis, who edited the
Journal of the American Medical Association for a decade. “What he
does is set himself up for criticism: Wait a minute. What’s this guy
trying to hide?”
Despite what his critics claim, Elhaik says, he was not out to prove
that contemporary Jews have no connection to the Jewish people of the
Bible. His primary research focus is the genetics of mental illness,
which, he explains, led him to question the assumption that Ashkenazi
Jews are a useful population to study because they’re so homogeneous.
Elhaik says he first read about the Khazarian Hypothesis a decade ago
in a 1976 book by the late Hungarian-British author Arthur Koestler,
“The Thirteenth Tribe,” written before scientists had the tools to
compare genomes. Koestler, who was Jewish by birth, said his aim in
writing the book was to eliminate the racist underpinnings of anti-
Semitism in Europe. “Should this theory be confirmed, the term ‘anti-
Semitism’ would become void of meaning,” the book jacket reads.
Although Koestler’s book was generally well reviewed, some skeptics
questioned the author’s grasp of the history of Khazaria.
Graur is not surprised that Elhaik has stood up against the “clique”
of scientists who believe that Jews are genetically homogeneous. “He
enjoys being combative,” Graur said. “That’s what science is.”
Contact Rita Rubin at feed...@forward.com
HHW
May 19, 2013, 8:17:06 PM5/19/13
to
HHW
May 19, 2013, 8:29:29 PM5/19/13
to
/12 Baltimore Jewish Times - Local News | JHU Geneticist Finds Linkage
www.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/news/jt/local_news/jhu_geneticist_finds_linkage/31538
1/4
Are Jews on the streets of Northwest Baltimore today the
descendants of the Khazars, a legendary central Asian mountain
tribe of fierce Jewish warriors who once ruled a vast realm?
It’s not only possible but likely, says a Johns Hopkins University
population geneticist who is analyzing the DNA of Eurasian Jews.
The Khazars, who presided over numerous tribes, lived from the
fifth to the 13th centuries in central Asia. At one point, they
converted en masse to Judaism. In the 20th century, however,
study of their fate was suppressed by the Soviet Union, its longtime
leader Josef Stalin rejecting having people in his ethnically diverse
communist nation learn of a once mighty Jewish kingdom within
their borders.
In recent years, attention has focused anew on a nation whose
conversion to Judaism is famed in Jewish circles thanks to Yehuda
HaLevi’s towering 12th-century philosophical work, “The Kuzari.”
Dr. Eran Elhaik, a native Israeli and a postdoctorate fellow at Johns
Hopkins University, became interested in the topic in 2000 after
reading Arthur Koestler’s book “The 11th Tribe.” Koestler, not a
professional historian, was heavily criticized for his research. But
Elhaik was hooked.
“I realized there was a whole history of which I knew nothing about
and it was Jewish history,” the engaging academic said while sitting
in a small conference room on the JHU Hospital campus.
In childhood, he said he and his peers learned that Jewish history
began with the Torah’s creation story and moved on to ancient
Israel’s journey and then the destruction of the Second Temple in
70 C.E.
“Then, history pretty much stops until you get to the Holocaust and
the formation of the State of Israel,” he says. “I was a pretty good
student and I never thought, ‘What happened in those 1,500 or so
years?’ I was not taught to think that way.”
But by 2010, he was a population geneticist. Two studies were
published that year on the “Jewish genome.” Neither tested the
Khazarian hypothesis — that ancestors of today’s Jews roamed the
ancient kingdom.
www.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/news/jt/local_news/jhu_geneticist_finds_linkage/31538
1/4
Are Jews on the streets of Northwest Baltimore today the
descendants of the Khazars, a legendary central Asian mountain
tribe of fierce Jewish warriors who once ruled a vast realm?
It’s not only possible but likely, says a Johns Hopkins University
population geneticist who is analyzing the DNA of Eurasian Jews.
The Khazars, who presided over numerous tribes, lived from the
fifth to the 13th centuries in central Asia. At one point, they
converted en masse to Judaism. In the 20th century, however,
study of their fate was suppressed by the Soviet Union, its longtime
leader Josef Stalin rejecting having people in his ethnically diverse
communist nation learn of a once mighty Jewish kingdom within
their borders.
In recent years, attention has focused anew on a nation whose
conversion to Judaism is famed in Jewish circles thanks to Yehuda
HaLevi’s towering 12th-century philosophical work, “The Kuzari.”
Dr. Eran Elhaik, a native Israeli and a postdoctorate fellow at Johns
Hopkins University, became interested in the topic in 2000 after
reading Arthur Koestler’s book “The 11th Tribe.” Koestler, not a
professional historian, was heavily criticized for his research. But
Elhaik was hooked.
“I realized there was a whole history of which I knew nothing about
and it was Jewish history,” the engaging academic said while sitting
in a small conference room on the JHU Hospital campus.
In childhood, he said he and his peers learned that Jewish history
began with the Torah’s creation story and moved on to ancient
Israel’s journey and then the destruction of the Second Temple in
70 C.E.
“Then, history pretty much stops until you get to the Holocaust and
the formation of the State of Israel,” he says. “I was a pretty good
student and I never thought, ‘What happened in those 1,500 or so
years?’ I was not taught to think that way.”
But by 2010, he was a population geneticist. Two studies were
published that year on the “Jewish genome.” Neither tested the
Khazarian hypothesis — that ancestors of today’s Jews roamed the
ancient kingdom.
drahcir
May 19, 2013, 9:04:05 PM5/19/13
to
On Sun, 19 May 2013 16:49:18 -0700 (PDT), HHW
<coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The only thing an impartial reader needs to know:
>By using sophisticated molecular tools, Feldman, Ostrer and most other
>scientists in the field have found that Jews are genetically
>homogeneous. No matter where they live, these scientists say, Jews are
>genetically more similar to each other than to their non-Jewish
>neighbors, and they have a shared Middle Eastern ancestry.
I repeat: MOST OTHER SCIENTISTS in the field have found that Jews are
genetically homogeneous (which in fact they haven't, but Ms. Rubin is
doing her best).
"�He�s just wrong,� said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a
leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik. �If you
So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
than the vast bulk of experts in the field. Similarly, he sides with
the"fringe linguist" Wexler re Yiddish instead of the vast bulk of
Yiddish specialists. Now, it's one thing if he had valid scientific
reasons to dispute the large majority in these two fields, but, I
mean, let's get serious - HHW can barely figure out how to make a
usenet reply, as he's proven innuerable times here.. He has no
scientific training whatsoever. So why, you may ask, does he choose to
go against the vast majority in two fields he knows nothing about?
Simple. Of course, it has nothing whatever to do with the scientific
merits, since he is incapable of understanding any of it. The sole
reason, of course, is that he hates jews and wants desperately to
disparage them and their state, so he chooses fringe personalities to
promote, since they are the only ones producing the conclusions that
are politically acceptable to him.
<coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The only thing an impartial reader needs to know:
>By using sophisticated molecular tools, Feldman, Ostrer and most other
>scientists in the field have found that Jews are genetically
>homogeneous. No matter where they live, these scientists say, Jews are
>genetically more similar to each other than to their non-Jewish
>neighbors, and they have a shared Middle Eastern ancestry.
genetically homogeneous (which in fact they haven't, but Ms. Rubin is
doing her best).
"�He�s just wrong,� said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a
leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik. �If you
take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done
over the last 15 years� there�s no doubt about the common Middle
Eastern origin,� he said. He added that Elhaik�s paper �is sort of a
one-off.�
over the last 15 years� there�s no doubt about the common Middle
Eastern origin,� he said. He added that Elhaik�s paper �is sort of a
So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
than the vast bulk of experts in the field. Similarly, he sides with
the"fringe linguist" Wexler re Yiddish instead of the vast bulk of
Yiddish specialists. Now, it's one thing if he had valid scientific
reasons to dispute the large majority in these two fields, but, I
mean, let's get serious - HHW can barely figure out how to make a
usenet reply, as he's proven innuerable times here.. He has no
scientific training whatsoever. So why, you may ask, does he choose to
go against the vast majority in two fields he knows nothing about?
Simple. Of course, it has nothing whatever to do with the scientific
merits, since he is incapable of understanding any of it. The sole
reason, of course, is that he hates jews and wants desperately to
disparage them and their state, so he chooses fringe personalities to
promote, since they are the only ones producing the conclusions that
are politically acceptable to him.
drahcir
May 19, 2013, 9:09:03 PM5/19/13
to
crush on him and you're so mad with love that you want to share it
with the world? I thought you were a two-man man, namely walt and
mearsheimer. If they find out, won't they be upset?
drahcir
May 19, 2013, 9:11:09 PM5/19/13
to
The funniest part is that this sudden spate of posts from HHW about
Elhaik are all an elaborate scheme he's devised in a desperate attempt
to save face for having posted an article very critical os Elhaik.
What lengths will the pififully insecure and vain HHW not go to in
order to try to restore his image with a handful of strangers on
usenet?
Elhaik are all an elaborate scheme he's devised in a desperate attempt
to save face for having posted an article very critical os Elhaik.
What lengths will the pififully insecure and vain HHW not go to in
order to try to restore his image with a handful of strangers on
usenet?
dusty
May 20, 2013, 6:17:24 AM5/20/13
to
On May 20, 11:04 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 May 2013 16:49:18 -0700 (PDT), HHW
>
> On Sun, 19 May 2013 16:49:18 -0700 (PDT), HHW
>
What drives you into a frenzy, shit-for-brains, is that Watson posts
highly credible geneticists/DNA analysts, demographers, historians,
mostly Jewish, who show that you aren't from the ME, but are from
elsewhere.
Some Jews actually worked with their hands as fine industrious
craftsman and never had the same gutless, smartarse attitude to
discussion as you display you disgusting Zionist piece of shit. You
would sell out Jews at the drop of a hat (like your European
predecessors) if it meant protecting your reactionary dream/nightmare
of Israel-Rothschildia.
You have no biological continuity with Palestine at all, you are a
Kazar-Slav. Learn to live with it in the same way that I live with the
fact that I'm a - proud - mongrelised European.
dsharavi
May 20, 2013, 6:57:33 AM5/20/13
to
do anything of the sort, and never did, not on these NGs, nor on the
NGs he previously infested.
drahcir
May 20, 2013, 9:07:25 AM5/20/13
to
geneticists who have studied the area that his paper attempted to
tackle. That was made quite evident in the article that H himself
published here. You are obviously not capapble of comprehending it so
you'll just have to take my word for it.
demographers,
Which "demographers" has he posted? I must have missed that one.
historians,
Well, yes, so long as they've been soundly refuted, poorly reviewed,
and have a callous disregard for the truth.
>mostly Jewish, who show that you aren't from the ME, but are from
>elsewhere.
SINGLE SOURCE HHW HAS TOUTED HAS BEEN, they become useful idiots only
to idiots like you and HHW.>
>
>Some Jews actually worked with their hands as fine industrious
>craftsman and never had the same gutless, smartarse attitude to
>discussion as you display you disgusting Zionist piece of shit.
Gosh, that's telling me!
>Some Jews actually worked with their hands as fine industrious
>craftsman and never had the same gutless, smartarse attitude to
>discussion as you display you disgusting Zionist piece of shit.
You
>would sell out Jews at the drop of a hat (like your European
>predecessors) if it meant protecting your reactionary dream/nightmare
>of Israel-Rothschildia.
>
>You have no biological continuity with Palestine at all, you are a
>Kazar-Slav. Learn to live with it in the same way that I live with the
>fact that I'm a - proud - mongrelised European.
your griddle, will you please do your very best to learn how to spell
"Khazar"? I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT IF YOU TRY VERY HARD!!
HHW
May 25, 2013, 4:16:56 AM5/25/13
to
On May 19, 7:17 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> An image search related to Dr. Eran Elhaik:
>
> https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sour...
> An image search related to Dr. Eran Elhaik:
>
And one bizarre video on the subject of Elhaik from the above image
search.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsqvWKTrsLg
drahcir
May 25, 2013, 9:42:14 AM5/25/13
to
purpose?
HHW
May 25, 2013, 3:07:55 PM5/25/13
to
On May 20, 8:07 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 03:17:24 -0700 (PDT), dusty
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <trackdu...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >On May 20, 11:04 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 19 May 2013 16:49:18 -0700 (PDT), HHW
>
> >> <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> The only thing an impartial reader needs to know:
>
> >> >By using sophisticated molecular tools, Feldman, Ostrer and most other
> >> >scientists in the field have found that Jews are genetically
> >> >homogeneous. No matter where they live, these scientists say, Jews are
> >> >genetically more similar to each other than to their non-Jewish
> >> >neighbors, and they have a shared Middle Eastern ancestry.
>
> >> I repeat: MOST OTHER SCIENTISTS in the field have found that Jews are
> >> genetically homogeneous (which in fact they haven't, but Ms. Rubin is
> >> doing her best).
>
> >> " He s just wrong, said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a
> >> leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik. If you
> >> take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done
> >> over the last 15 years there s no doubt about the common Middle
> >> Eastern origin, he said. He added that Elhaik s paper is sort of a
> >> one-off.
Not one of these people has come to grips with Elhaik's paper: "one-
> On Mon, 20 May 2013 03:17:24 -0700 (PDT), dusty
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <trackdu...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >On May 20, 11:04 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 19 May 2013 16:49:18 -0700 (PDT), HHW
>
> >> <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> The only thing an impartial reader needs to know:
>
> >> >By using sophisticated molecular tools, Feldman, Ostrer and most other
> >> >scientists in the field have found that Jews are genetically
> >> >homogeneous. No matter where they live, these scientists say, Jews are
> >> >genetically more similar to each other than to their non-Jewish
> >> >neighbors, and they have a shared Middle Eastern ancestry.
>
> >> I repeat: MOST OTHER SCIENTISTS in the field have found that Jews are
> >> genetically homogeneous (which in fact they haven't, but Ms. Rubin is
> >> doing her best).
>
> >> " He s just wrong, said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a
> >> leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik. If you
> >> take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done
> >> over the last 15 years there s no doubt about the common Middle
> >> Eastern origin, he said. He added that Elhaik s paper is sort of a
> >> one-off.
off"; "He's just wrong"; The earlier work was "careful". In sum
Feldman says absolutely nothing about Elhaik's analysis.
>
> >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
> >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
> >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
What vast bulk, liar?
> >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
> >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
> >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
Similarly, he sides with
> >> the"fringe linguist" Wexler re Yiddish instead of the vast bulk of
> >> Yiddish specialists.
nothing "vast" about Yiddish spcialists. It among the most tiny of
scientific specialties. As is always the case with you people, you
attack him instead of his work. You're disgusting.
Now, it's one thing if he had valid scientific
> >> reasons to dispute the large majority in these two fields,
genetics by Jews. None of his antagonists has had the guts to respond
to his science. Feldman should have kept his mouth shut instead of
uttering the claptrap above without a stitch of scientific analysis.
And then you, you deceitful bastard, speak of the residue of the forty
years as being a "majority" deserving victory in this struggle by the
numbers of scientists knocked off their perches, all of which were
prior to Elhaik and none of which has responded.
but, I
> >> mean, let's get serious - HHW can barely figure out how to make a
> >> usenet reply, as he's proven innuerable times here..
malevolent guttersnipe such as you. And I'm not going to be able to
get it repaired or buy a new one til I get back to the States. I hope
you enjoy the video I just put up. It's "art dance" with voice over
made in England.
He has no
> >> scientific training whatsoever.
scientific training. You're disgusting, Ratner.
And you, a broken down piano player have scientific training that I
don't? All we're doing, fool, is waiting for the other shoe to fall.
So far your "majority/bulk" has not been able to respond
substantively. Poor Professor Feldman made a fool of himself. Be sure
to tell us when the next one speaks up. I'd hate to miss it.
So why, you may ask, does he choose to
> >> go against the vast majority in two fields he knows nothing about?
irresponsible stupidities for which I am eminently qualified and
waiting for Ostrer et al to speak. They have an ethical obligation to
address Elhaik's science. Everyone here knows that. If they fail or
refuse, "Jewish genetics" is just going to pass them by. It may even
end up having to be practiced by Gentiles to avoid this gross conflict
of interest. There no choice but to address this logjam if only to
save Jewish genetics from Zionist politicos who also study genetics.
The interests of the afflicted demand it. If they can knock Elhaik off
his pedestal, so be it. In the meantime the ball is in their court and
with every day that passes their stock is falling.
> >> Simple. Of course, it has nothing whatever to do with the scientific
> >> merits, since he is incapable of understanding any of it. The sole
> >> reason, of course, is that he hates jews and wants desperately to
> >> disparage them and their state, so he chooses fringe personalities to
> >> promote, since they are the only ones producing the conclusions that
> >> are politically acceptable to him.
resort to nothing else is why you're on your heels all over the
country and more so in Europe, which is simply waiting for American
leadership. How do you expect to help Zionists in the U.S. prevail in
this struggle simply by trying to label me and thousands of others
like me as "the issue". It doesn't work any more and I'm a perfect
example of it. I'm nothing more than a smart, articulate, very well-
read nobody without any ambitions except to get that vile Israel Lobby
out of our Congress and the IDF back behind the green line so that we
can lower our profile in the Middle East to something similar to pre-
WW II standards. Political scientists call it an "off-shore" policy.
It's got nothing to do with your damned self-generated "antisemitism"
or "Jew hatred", accusations you can't do without given your filthy
style of politics, and accordingly work feverishly to make sure you
don't run out of. In effect you and sharavi are gutter-level activists
in the Holocaust Industry.
> >"So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much otabout
> >genetics as I know about horseshoeing.."
Horseshoeing is a noble art and taking its name in vain is something
we've come to from you. Listen-up, Ratner. Serious academic genetics
comes with codes of ethics. That's because their work has real world
consequences.
> >What drives you into a frenzy, shit-for-brains, is that Watson posts
> >highly credible geneticists/DNA analysts,
>
> Do try to keep up. Elhaik has been discredited by ALL respected
> geneticists who have studied the area that his paper attempted to
> tackle.
done that. He refused to speak to the journalist which interviewed
Elhaik. Early on you said you wanted to hear what Behar (sic) had to
say. Has he said anything? If so, what?
That was made quite evident in the article that H himself
> published here. You are obviously not capapble of comprehending it so
> you'll just have to take my word for it.
games with the likes of you. I think it ought to be sorted out and
soon.
> demographers,
>
> Which "demographers" has he posted? I must have missed that one.
thinking about comments I've made about Israel's paranoid demographic
"problem" which is based on one of its central Zionist principles,
that Jews are incapable of living in harmony with anyone but
themselves
> historians,
>
> Well, yes, so long as they've been soundly refuted, poorly reviewed,
> and have a callous disregard for the truth.
all. The truth is not an objective for these gutter rats.
> >mostly Jewish, who show that you aren't from the ME, but are from
> >elsewhere.
>
> Anyon can show anything.
When they are refuted by experts, as EVERY
> SINGLE SOURCE HHW HAS TOUTED HAS BEEN, they become useful idiots only
> to idiots like you and HHW.>
grips with Elhaik's analysis. The peer reviewers support, one calling
it more profound than anything which had preceeded it, and no one
else has spoken up.
> >Some Jews actually worked with their hands as fine industrious
> >craftsman and never had the same gutless, smartarse attitude to
> >discussion as you display you disgusting Zionist piece of shit.
>
> Gosh, that's telling me!
tune in here, thousands every month.
> You
>
> >would sell out Jews at the drop of a hat (like your European
> >predecessors) if it meant protecting your reactionary dream/nightmare
> >of Israel-Rothschildia.
bewildered.
> >You have no biological continuity with Palestine at all, you are a
> >Kazar-Slav. Learn to live with it in the same way that I live with the
> >fact that I'm a - proud - mongrelised European.
> That's all very nice, but break time's over. Before you get back to
> your griddle, will you please do your very best to learn how to spell
> "Khazar"? I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT IF YOU TRY VERY HARD!!
drahcir
May 25, 2013, 6:22:57 PM5/25/13
to
want more from him, I suggest you write to him. You tell him you're
HHW from SCI, and you're not satisfied!
>>
>> >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
>> >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
>> >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
>
>What vast bulk, liar?
There are others quoted JUST IN THE ARTICLE YOU POSTED as well as "all
>> >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
>> >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
>> >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
>
>What vast bulk, liar?
of the careful genetic populaition analysis that has been done over
the last 15 years." Don't call me a liar unless you're ready to prove
it. You're alone in the moral cellar here, H. I know it gets lonely
there, but you can't have company until you prove your case.
>
>Similarly, he sides with
>> >> the"fringe linguist" Wexler re Yiddish instead of the vast bulk of
>> >> Yiddish specialists.
>
>There is absolutey nothing "fringe" about Wexler.
Again, yes, there is, ACCORDING TO THE PAPER YOU POSTED BY WOODWORTH.
>Similarly, he sides with
>> >> the"fringe linguist" Wexler re Yiddish instead of the vast bulk of
>> >> Yiddish specialists.
>
>There is absolutey nothing "fringe" about Wexler.
She plainly says that the maljority of experts in the field of Yiddish
are against him. That makes him fringe.
And there is
>nothing "vast" about Yiddish spcialists. It among the most tiny of
>scientific specialties.
As is always the case with you people, you
>attack him instead of his work. You're disgusting.
liar. I'll ALWAYS have that over you, H. There is no way for you to
overcome it.
>
> Now, it's one thing if he had valid scientific
>> >> reasons to dispute the large majority in these two fields,
>
>Elhaik has overturned forty years of Zionistic patriotic Jewish
>genetics by Jews.
Um, yes, according to you, a nobody. But not according to Feldman, et
> Now, it's one thing if he had valid scientific
>> >> reasons to dispute the large majority in these two fields,
>
>Elhaik has overturned forty years of Zionistic patriotic Jewish
>genetics by Jews.
al. Your typing it here is simply yet more public masturbation.
None of his antagonists has had the guts to respond
>to his science. Feldman should have kept his mouth shut instead of
>uttering the claptrap above without a stitch of scientific analysis.
>And then you, you deceitful bastard,
proofs of his lying. "Bastard" means he doesn't like it when I point
out that he has yet again made a complete idiot of himself.
And now we transition from HHWspeak to HHWBabble. There's a subtle
difference, but one worth noting. HHWBabble is when HHW starts making
a quasi-religious (in the sense of having zero backup, not formal
religion), speech about Jews and how terrible they are. Nothing much
entertaining here, so I can safely skip over it.
speak of the residue of the forty
>years as being a "majority" deserving victory in this struggle by the
>numbers of scientists knocked off their perches, all of which were
>prior to Elhaik and none of which has responded.
>
> but, I
>> >> mean, let's get serious - HHW can barely figure out how to make a
>> >> usenet reply, as he's proven innuerable times here..
>
>I'm not going to discuss the condition of my computer with a
>malevolent guttersnipe
And your computer is completely irrelevant to your ability to figure
out to whom you are replying.
such as you. And I'm not going to be able to
>get it repaired or buy a new one til I get back to the States.
I hope
>you enjoy the video I just put up. It's "art dance" with voice over
>made in England.
>
> He has no
>> >> scientific training whatsoever.
>
>Just look at him. One can't get a bachelor's degree without some
>scientific training. You're disgusting, Ratner.
Um, you've said that already. Did you forget so soon?
> He has no
>> >> scientific training whatsoever.
>
>Just look at him. One can't get a bachelor's degree without some
>scientific training. You're disgusting, Ratner.
>And you, a broken down piano player have scientific training that I
>don't?
All we're doing, fool, is waiting for the other shoe to fall.
>So far your "majority/bulk" has not been able to respond
>substantively.
all by himself. You idiot, you posted a dead link as if it meant
something sinister, and why? Because you confused fantasy with
reality. it went step by step. Somehow, you stumbled upon the dead
link. Then you started mulling it over. And before you knew it, a
conspiracy had been generated in what little functioning is left of
your grey matter. Of course, you were assuming that everyone will have
to accept your theory because no one will be able to see the page, but
of course, as usual, you were wrong. After I revealed the simple
reason the page was down, you had to backpedal and try to cover your
tracks, but it didn't work. It was crystal clear you're just a loser
inventing crazy stuff, just like warhol and a vew others here, no
different.
Poor Professor Feldman made a fool of himself.
believe this guy? I mean, is he completely gone or what?)
Be sure
>to tell us when the next one speaks up. I'd hate to miss it.
haven't figured that out yet. It was all made crystal clear in the
article YOU POSTED - Elhaik is a "one-off", not even a blip on their
radar.
>
>So why, you may ask, does he choose to
>> >> go against the vast majority in two fields he knows nothing about?
>
>That's not what I'm doing.
yes, it is.
>So why, you may ask, does he choose to
>> >> go against the vast majority in two fields he knows nothing about?
>
>That's not what I'm doing.
I'm countering your malevolent and
>irresponsible stupidities for which I am eminently qualified and
>waiting for Ostrer et al to speak.
"majority" of Yiddish experts. In the latter it is the distinct
minority, but the former is a minority of "one". You contradict the
experts because they contradict your political ends, no other reason.
They have an ethical obligation to
>address Elhaik's science.
Everyone here knows that.
Meaning you, period.
HHW fantasy bul;lshit below.
If they fail or
>refuse, "Jewish genetics" is just going to pass them by. It may even
>end up having to be practiced by Gentiles to avoid this gross conflict
>of interest. There no choice but to address this logjam if only to
>save Jewish genetics from Zionist politicos who also study genetics.
>The interests of the afflicted demand it. If they can knock Elhaik off
>his pedestal, so be it. In the meantime the ball is in their court and
>with every day that passes their stock is falling.
>
>> >> Simple. Of course, it has nothing whatever to do with the scientific
>> >> merits, since he is incapable of understanding any of it. The sole
>> >> reason, of course, is that he hates jews and wants desperately to
>> >> disparage them and their state, so he chooses fringe personalities to
>> >> promote, since they are the only ones producing the conclusions that
>> >> are politically acceptable to him.
issues of Jewish population genetics and Yiddish history, simply
because I always believe the majorty of experts in fields in which I
am not expert myself. HHW knows far less than I in both of those
fields, yet chooses fringe points of view. He has no objective reason
for doing so, except that unlike the majority viewpoint, they do not
contradict his political views.
>Those stupidities bear no resemblance to what is happening. That you
>resort to nothing else is why you're on your heels all over the
>country and more so in Europe, which is simply waiting for American
>leadership. How do you expect to help Zionists in the U.S. prevail in
>this struggle simply by trying to label me and thousands of others
>like me as "the issue". It doesn't work any more and I'm a perfect
>example of it. I'm nothing more than a smart, articulate, very well-
>read nobody without any ambitions except to get that vile Israel Lobby
>out of our Congress and the IDF back behind the green line so that we
>can lower our profile in the Middle East to something similar to pre-
>WW II standards. Political scientists call it an "off-shore" policy.
>It's got nothing to do with your damned self-generated "antisemitism"
>or "Jew hatred", accusations you can't do without given your filthy
>style of politics, and accordingly work feverishly to make sure you
>don't run out of. In effect you and sharavi are gutter-level activists
>in the Holocaust Industry.
>
>> >"So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much otabout
>> >genetics as I know about horseshoeing.."
>
>Horseshoeing is a noble art and taking its name in vain is something
>we've come to from you. Listen-up, Ratner. Serious academic genetics
>comes with codes of ethics. That's because their work has real world
>consequences.
>> >What drives you into a frenzy, shit-for-brains, is that Watson posts
>> >highly credible geneticists/DNA analysts,
>>
>> Do try to keep up. Elhaik has been discredited by ALL respected
>> geneticists who have studied the area that his paper attempted to
>> tackle.
>
>Give us the citations. I've seen none of that.
ALL research over the last 15 years contradicts Elhaik. ALL. got it?
ALL. The Elhaik is ONE OFF, meaning it has no precedent, no
contemporary support, and no followup support. It is UNWORTHY of any
serious attention, PERIOD.
Ostrer certainly hasn't
>done that. He refused to speak to the journalist which interviewed
>Elhaik. Early on you said you wanted to hear what Behar (sic)
had to
>say. Has he said anything? If so, what?
>
>That was made quite evident in the article that H himself
>> published here. You are obviously not capapble of comprehending it so
>> you'll just have to take my word for it.
>
>I'm posting everything I run into, good, bad and ugly.
colossal error posting a very good article condemning Elhaik and now
you're attempting to cover your tracks. What. you thinki you're gonna
sneak that in there and I'm gonna let it go?
I'm not playing
>games with the likes of you. I think it ought to be sorted out and
>soon.
interested to konw. is there even one person?
>
>> �demographers,
>>
>> Which "demographers" has he posted? I must have missed that one.
>
>You miss everything but dreck, Ratner. I suspect that Dusty was
>thinking about comments I've made about Israel's paranoid demographic
>"problem" which is based on one of its central Zionist principles,
>that Jews are incapable of living in harmony with anyone but
>themselves
>> �historians,
>>
>> Well, yes, so long as they've been soundly refuted, poorly reviewed,
>> and have a callous disregard for the truth.
>
>Don't chase that Dusty. We've been through the history. They deny it
>all. The truth is not an objective for these gutter rats.
Psst. H, you're replying to me, not Dusty. Go get a dose of meds and
>> Which "demographers" has he posted? I must have missed that one.
>
>You miss everything but dreck, Ratner. I suspect that Dusty was
>thinking about comments I've made about Israel's paranoid demographic
>"problem" which is based on one of its central Zionist principles,
>that Jews are incapable of living in harmony with anyone but
>themselves
>> �historians,
>>
>> Well, yes, so long as they've been soundly refuted, poorly reviewed,
>> and have a callous disregard for the truth.
>
>Don't chase that Dusty. We've been through the history. They deny it
>all. The truth is not an objective for these gutter rats.
come back, will you?
>> >mostly Jewish, who show that you aren't from the ME, but are from
>> >elsewhere.
>>
>> Anyon can show anything.
>
>And if he's Ratner, he will. It all depends on morals and ethics.
>
>When they are refuted by experts, as EVERY
>> SINGLE SOURCE HHW HAS TOUTED HAS BEEN, they become useful idiots only
>> to idiots like you and HHW.>
>
>Show us one man or woman in the field who has systematically come to
>grips with Elhaik's analysis.
No one has to. You have the quote above, H. Elhaik s a one-off. End of
>When they are refuted by experts, as EVERY
>> SINGLE SOURCE HHW HAS TOUTED HAS BEEN, they become useful idiots only
>> to idiots like you and HHW.>
>
>Show us one man or woman in the field who has systematically come to
>grips with Elhaik's analysis.
story. if experts had to pay attention to every one-off, they'd get
nothing accomoplished. I REPEAT, WRITE TO FELDMAN OR OSTRER OR BEHAR
AND TE:LL THEM WHAT YOU THINK. DO IT TODAY.
The peer reviewers support, one calling
>it more profound than anything which had preceeded it, and no one
>else has spoken up.
population genetics? Give me a break.
>
>> >Some Jews actually worked with their hands as fine industrious
>> >craftsman and never had the same gutless, smartarse attitude to
>> >discussion as you display you disgusting Zionist piece of shit.
>>
>> Gosh, that's telling me!
>
>There is no "me" here. We're both talking past you to the people who
>tune in here, thousands every month.
You're truly insane.
>> >Some Jews actually worked with their hands as fine industrious
>> >craftsman and never had the same gutless, smartarse attitude to
>> >discussion as you display you disgusting Zionist piece of shit.
>>
>> Gosh, that's telling me!
>
>There is no "me" here. We're both talking past you to the people who
>tune in here, thousands every month.
>
>> �You
>>
>> >would sell out Jews at the drop of a hat (like your European
>> >predecessors) if it meant protecting your reactionary dream/nightmare
>> >of Israel-Rothschildia.
>
>Ratner and sharavi surely would. The rest here are just vile and
>bewildered.
Folks, at this stage,. it is clear that poor H has forgotten whom he
>> >would sell out Jews at the drop of a hat (like your European
>> >predecessors) if it meant protecting your reactionary dream/nightmare
>> >of Israel-Rothschildia.
>
>Ratner and sharavi surely would. The rest here are just vile and
>bewildered.
is discussing with - he seems to think he replied to Dusty or someone,
so I'll say so long for now.
DThomas
May 26, 2013, 7:04:58 AM5/26/13
to
On May 25, 12:07 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not one of these people has come to grips with Elhaik's paper: "one-
> off"; "He's just wrong"; The earlier work was "careful". In sum
> Feldman says absolutely nothing about Elhaik's analysis.
Yes, they do, including the author of the paper you "inadvertently"
> Not one of these people has come to grips with Elhaik's paper: "one-
> off"; "He's just wrong"; The earlier work was "careful". In sum
> Feldman says absolutely nothing about Elhaik's analysis.
posted. You merely refuse to notice. Comfy sun above Ajijic steamed
your brainpan?
> > >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
> > >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
> > >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
>
> What vast bulk, liar?
your latest fair-haired boi wrong. Not an unusual occurrence for you.
> Elhaik has overturned forty years of Zionistic patriotic Jewish
> genetics by Jews.
tenure in the foreseeable future.
> > >> He has no
> > >> scientific training whatsoever.
> Just look at him. One can't get a bachelor's degree without some
> scientific training. You're disgusting, Ratner.
earn a bachelor's degree without scientific training, particularly if
one's field of study happens to be in the realm of arts and
humanities. Judging by the contents of your posts, it appears one can
get a bachelor's degree based on one's monetary outflow, without
involving any intellectual training.
> And you, a broken down piano player have scientific training that I
> don't?
> That's not what I'm doing. I'm countering your malevolent and
> irresponsible stupidities for which I am eminently qualified and
> waiting for Ostrer et al to speak.
performance as some kind of intellectual humanitarian. Are you?
> Listen-up, Ratner. Serious academic genetics
> comes with codes of ethics. That's because their work has real world
> consequences.
academic genetics" -- or, the "real world" of "serious academic"
anything.
> > Elhaik has been discredited by ALL respected
> > geneticists who have studied the area that his paper attempted to
> > tackle.
> Give us the citations. I've seen none of that.
them doesn't mean those citations haven't been given.
> Ostrer certainly hasn't done that. He refused to speak to the journalist
> which interviewed Elhaik.
was the research Elhaik nicked and bent to his own emotional purposes,
was it not?
> I'm posting everything I run into, good, bad and ugly.
backs up from your toilet. Not that Hunter is any stranger to that
sort of practice.
> Show us one man or woman in the field who has systematically come to
> grips with Elhaik's analysis. The peer reviewers support, one calling
> it more profound than anything which had preceeded it, and no one
> else has spoken up.
who
has systematically come to grips with the Hollow Earth Theory. And
Hunter,
you STILL haven't come to grips with the falsehoods you posted years
ago.
Care to go over them again, and prove how you lied?
drahcir
May 26, 2013, 9:44:20 AM5/26/13
to
On Sun, 26 May 2013 04:04:58 -0700 (PDT), DThomas
<deborah....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 25, 12:07�pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Not one of these people has come to grips with Elhaik's paper: "one-
>> off"; "He's just wrong"; The earlier work was "careful". In sum
>> Feldman says absolutely nothing about Elhaik's analysis.
>
>Yes, they do, including the author of the paper you "inadvertently"
>posted. You merely refuse to notice. Comfy sun above Ajijic steamed
>your brainpan?
>
>> > >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
>> > >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
>> > >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
>>
>> What vast bulk, liar?
>
>The "vast bulk" of experts in the field of genetics who have proven
>your latest fair-haired boi wrong. Not an unusual occurrence for you.
>
>> Elhaik has overturned forty years of Zionistic patriotic Jewish
>> genetics by Jews.
>
>Elhaik has overturned nothing, except the possibility of his receiving
>tenure in the foreseeable future.
LOL!
<deborah....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 25, 12:07�pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Not one of these people has come to grips with Elhaik's paper: "one-
>> off"; "He's just wrong"; The earlier work was "careful". In sum
>> Feldman says absolutely nothing about Elhaik's analysis.
>
>Yes, they do, including the author of the paper you "inadvertently"
>posted. You merely refuse to notice. Comfy sun above Ajijic steamed
>your brainpan?
>
>> > >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
>> > >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
>> > >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
>>
>> What vast bulk, liar?
>
>The "vast bulk" of experts in the field of genetics who have proven
>your latest fair-haired boi wrong. Not an unusual occurrence for you.
>
>> Elhaik has overturned forty years of Zionistic patriotic Jewish
>> genetics by Jews.
>
>Elhaik has overturned nothing, except the possibility of his receiving
>tenure in the foreseeable future.
>
>> > >> �He has no
dsharavi
May 26, 2013, 5:27:56 PM5/26/13
to
> > >On May 20, 11:04 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> > >> >By using sophisticated molecular tools, Feldman, Ostrer and most other
> > >> >scientists in the field have found that Jews are genetically
> > >> >homogeneous. No matter where they live, these scientists say, Jews are
> > >> >genetically more similar to each other than to their non-Jewish
> > >> >neighbors, and they have a shared Middle Eastern ancestry.
>
> > >> I repeat: MOST OTHER SCIENTISTS in the field have found that Jews are
> > >> genetically homogeneous (which in fact they haven't, but Ms. Rubin is
> > >> doing her best).
>
> > >> " He s just wrong, said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a
> > >> leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik. If you
> > >> take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done
> > >> over the last 15 years there s no doubt about the common Middle
> > >> Eastern origin, he said. He added that Elhaik s paper is sort of a
> > >> one-off.
> > >> >By using sophisticated molecular tools, Feldman, Ostrer and most other
> > >> >scientists in the field have found that Jews are genetically
> > >> >homogeneous. No matter where they live, these scientists say, Jews are
> > >> >genetically more similar to each other than to their non-Jewish
> > >> >neighbors, and they have a shared Middle Eastern ancestry.
>
> > >> I repeat: MOST OTHER SCIENTISTS in the field have found that Jews are
> > >> genetically homogeneous (which in fact they haven't, but Ms. Rubin is
> > >> doing her best).
>
> > >> " He s just wrong, said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a
> > >> leading researcher in Jewish genetics, referring to Elhaik. If you
> > >> take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done
> > >> over the last 15 years there s no doubt about the common Middle
> > >> Eastern origin, he said. He added that Elhaik s paper is sort of a
> > >> one-off.
On May 25, 12:07 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not one of these people has come to grips with Elhaik's paper
I'm quite sure a number of them have, indeed, "come to grips" with it.
If have birds, they've probably used it for cageliners.
> > >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
> > >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
> > >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
> What vast bulk, liar?
because he's a non-starter.
> > >> Similarly, he sides with
> > >> the"fringe linguist" Wexler re Yiddish instead of the vast bulk of
> > >> Yiddish specialists.
>
> There is absolutey nothing "fringe" about Wexler.
it, of course -- even stated as much.
>You're disgusting.
Awwww ......
> > >> Now, it's one thing if he had valid scientific
> > >> reasons to dispute the large majority in these two fields,
>
> Elhaik has overturned forty years of Zionistic patriotic Jewish
> genetics by Jews.
> None of his antagonists has had the guts to respond
> to his science.
misuse of history is atrocious -- right up there with yours, Hunter.
> > >> I
> > >> mean, let's get serious - HHW can barely figure out how to make a
> > >> usenet reply, as he's proven innuerable times here..
> I'm not going to discuss the condition of my computer
problem lies with your wetware.
> > >> He has no
> > >> scientific training whatsoever.
> Just look at him. One can't get a bachelor's degree without some
> scientific training.
a lot of training in anything.
> You're disgusting
Awwww ......
> > >> So why, you may ask, does he choose to
> > >> go against the vast majority in two fields he knows nothing about?
>
> That's not what I'm doing.
> How do you expect to help Zionists in the U.S. prevail in
> this struggle simply by trying to label me and thousands of others
> like me as "the issue".
enough to be an issue.
> I'm nothing more than a smart, articulate, very well-
> read nobody without any ambitions except to get that vile Israel Lobby
> out of our Congress and the IDF back behind the green line so that we
> can lower our profile in the Middle East to something similar to pre-
> WW II standards.
are the first two words.
> > >"So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much otabout
> > >genetics as I know about horseshoeing.."
>
> Horseshoeing is a noble art
> Listen-up, Ratner. Serious academic genetics
> comes with codes of ethics.
lawyers actually follow those ethics? Hunter Watson isn't one,
obviously, and his AV rating shows it.
> > Do try to keep up. Elhaik has been discredited by ALL respected
> > geneticists who have studied the area that his paper attempted to
> > tackle.
>
> Give us the citations. I've seen none of that.
of you, and the words shouted in your hairy old ear.
> I'm posting everything I run into, good, bad and ugly.
> > Which "demographers" has he posted? I must have missed that one.
>
> You miss everything but dreck, Ratner.
> I suspect that Dusty was
> thinking about comments I've made about Israel's paranoid demographic
> "problem"
some sausage.
> Don't chase that Dusty. We've been through the history.
> It all depends on morals and ethics.
and unethical people do.
> > >Some Jews actually worked with their hands as fine industrious
> > >craftsman and never had the same gutless, smartarse attitude to
> > >discussion as you display you disgusting Zionist piece of shit.
>
> > Gosh, that's telling me!
>
> There is no "me" here. We're both talking past you to the people who
> tune in here, thousands every month.
amusing is that thousands upon thousands of people are waiting with
bated breath for his latest posts -- even the posts where, for some
reason, Hunter posts nothing at all.
dsharavi
May 26, 2013, 5:29:57 PM5/26/13
to
On May 19, 5:29 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> /12 Baltimore Jewish Times - Local News | JHU Geneticist Finds Linkagewww.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/news/jt/local_news/jhu_gene...
brainpan, or is it all the tequila you guzzle?
> /12 Baltimore Jewish Times - Local News | JHU Geneticist Finds Linkagewww.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/news/jt/local_news/jhu_gene...
> 1/4
>
> Are Jews on the streets of Northwest Baltimore today the
> descendants of the Khazars, a legendary central Asian mountain
> tribe of fierce Jewish warriors who once ruled a vast realm?
No, and you already posted this, doofus. Ajijic sun steaming your
>
> Are Jews on the streets of Northwest Baltimore today the
> descendants of the Khazars, a legendary central Asian mountain
> tribe of fierce Jewish warriors who once ruled a vast realm?
brainpan, or is it all the tequila you guzzle?
dsharavi
May 26, 2013, 5:32:07 PM5/26/13
to
On May 26, 6:44 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> >> Not one of these people has come to grips with Elhaik's paper: "one-
> >> off"; "He's just wrong"; The earlier work was "careful". In sum
> >> Feldman says absolutely nothing about Elhaik's analysis.
> >Yes, they do, including the author of the paper you "inadvertently"
> >posted. You merely refuse to notice. Comfy sun above Ajijic steamed
> >your brainpan?
>
> >> > >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
> >> > >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
> >> > >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
>
> >> What vast bulk, liar?
>
> >The "vast bulk" of experts in the field of genetics who have proven
> >your latest fair-haired boi wrong. Not an unusual occurrence for you.
>
> >> Elhaik has overturned forty years of Zionistic patriotic Jewish
> >> genetics by Jews.
>
> >Elhaik has overturned nothing, except the possibility of his receiving
> >tenure in the foreseeable future.
>
> LOL!
Hee hee hee. Stuff like this happens when your new favourite TV show
> >> Not one of these people has come to grips with Elhaik's paper: "one-
> >> off"; "He's just wrong"; The earlier work was "careful". In sum
> >> Feldman says absolutely nothing about Elhaik's analysis.
> >Yes, they do, including the author of the paper you "inadvertently"
> >posted. You merely refuse to notice. Comfy sun above Ajijic steamed
> >your brainpan?
>
> >> > >> So here we have HHW, a lamebrain ignoramus who knows as much about
> >> > >> genetics as I know about horseshoeing, siding with a "one-off" rather
> >> > >> than the vast bulk of experts in the field.
>
> >> What vast bulk, liar?
>
> >The "vast bulk" of experts in the field of genetics who have proven
> >your latest fair-haired boi wrong. Not an unusual occurrence for you.
>
> >> Elhaik has overturned forty years of Zionistic patriotic Jewish
> >> genetics by Jews.
>
> >Elhaik has overturned nothing, except the possibility of his receiving
> >tenure in the foreseeable future.
>
> LOL!
-- TV show!!! -- gets put off for a week. Grrrrrrr.
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