Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
mercedes
This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept Jesus as his
Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice any
religion but cannot be a member of another religion. But, Jesus was a
Jew....then is Christianity considered an acceptable practice as far as the
Jewish community and religious leaders are concerned?
Hmmmm. Comments anyone?
David Goldman
Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
it.
Sparkup
"David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
> There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a Christian,
> Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
> he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
> liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
> beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
> it.
But can you accept Jesus as the messiah (central to being a christian) and
still be a jew?
mercedes
> Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
> he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
> liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
> beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
> it.
>
The Torah I think is the the first 5 books of the Christian Old Testament.
Could a Jew just interprete the Torah differently, believe in Jesus as the
Messiah, and still be considered a Jew? I guess what I am getting at is the
subject of Jesus even considered in Synagod discussion and worship?
Ariel
there are no "violations or prohibitions" set forth by the torah or any
other document. If there are, i ask goldman to point us to the institute
that implements the penalties for infringing the biblical law (refrain from
saying god, because it doesnt count). I mean a real institute, something
that you can walk into, like a bar. I can eat pork (i love pork chops) and
nobody will come to my house to arrest me (not even god).
To say that a Jew can be a Christian (or hindu, etc) is like saying that a
member of the NK can be rational. It's virtualy impossible.
You can be a Jew and believe (not adhere to) in certain doctrines of
Christianity or Budhism, but you can't have two religions at the same time.
No one prohibits it, but having 2 religions makes you incoherent.
I myself am a jew by conviction and I respect all religions, including
Christianity, I have a great respect for the figure of Jesus Christ.
Very few jews accept the figure of Jesus. The fanatic ones consider him the
devil reincarnated, but then the fanatics' (like the NK) opinion is utterly
irrelevant to the world.
bottom line, the answer to the question on your header is a solid YES.
"David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
Henry
mercedes wrote:
> Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>
> This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
> Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept Jesus as his
> Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
Not only could but would. You can count on other Christians who had hatred for
Jews before they would
have the same hatred for them after they converted.
If you doubt that Karl Marx father of Communism was never a Jew but millions of
Christians hate him as a Jew because his father
was born a Jew.
The more difficult question is; Jesus is a Jew why is it that almost no
Christians know that? Why isn't Jesus a Jew?
>
>
> I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice any
> religion but cannot be a member of another religion. But, Jesus was a
> Jew....then is Christianity considered an acceptable practice as far as the
> Jewish community and religious leaders are concerned?
>
> Hmmmm. Comments anyone?
--
And the star spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave!
Francis Scott Key
mercedes
> >
> > This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
> > Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept Jesus as
his
> > Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
>
> Not only could but would. You can count on other Christians who had hatred
for
> Jews before they would
> have the same hatred for them after they converted.
> If you doubt that Karl Marx father of Communism was never a Jew but
millions of
> Christians hate him as a Jew because his father
> was born a Jew.
>
> The more difficult question is; Jesus is a Jew why is it that almost no
> Christians know that? Why isn't Jesus a Jew?
>
Oh, I think most Christians know Jesus was a Jew. The pressing question is
that Christians have a problem with anyone who does not accept Jesus as
Christ, but we still/should love those folks anyway. Another pressing
issue is that Christians don't know much about people of other religions
like Jews and Muslims.
Anyway, getting back to my original post, maybe I just misread or
misinterpreted that a Jew was a Jew because he practiced Judaism or
practiced no religion but not any other religion. So much misinformation
out there that it gets confusing.
William A. Levinson
mercedes wrote:
> Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus
as an enlightened teacher and philosopher, similar to Gautama (Buddha) and Lao
Tzu? Yes.
> and still be a Jew?
http://www.omdurman.org/alminbar.html Militant "Islam" in its own words.
AlMinbar speaks far more eloquently than anything I can say.
--Bill
Deborah
>The Torah I think is the the first 5 books of the Christian
>Old Testament. Could a Jew just interprete the Torah differently,
>believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and still be considered a Jew?
A Jew remains a Jew.
>I guess what I am getting at is the subject of Jesus even
>considered in Synagod discussion and worship?
No.
Deborah
Susan Cohen
mercedes wrote:
> Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
Yes, but not a practicing one. That's the real key.
Once a Jew decides to follow another religion, heis an apostate or heretic.
> I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice any
> religion but cannot be a member of another religion.
Not true.
> But, Jesus was a
> Jew....
Immaterial.
> then is Christianity considered an acceptable practice as far as the
> Jewish community and religious leaders are concerned?
No!! No other practice but Judaism, just like any other religion.
Susan
Paul Abeles
"Deborah" <dlt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4af03591.02100...@posting.google.com...
> "mercedes" <merced...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >The Torah I think is the the first 5 books of the Christian
> >Old Testament. Could a Jew just interprete the Torah differently,
> >believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and still be considered a Jew?
>
> A Jew remains a Jew.
A Jew in apostasy is not considered a Jew by the state of Israel.
Susan Cohen
Sparkup wrote:
> "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
> > There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a Christian,
> > Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
> > he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
> > liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
> > beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
> > it.
>
> But can you accept Jesus as the messiah (central to being a christian) and
> still be a jew?
You are missing the point.
He will still be a Jew, but a sinning one. An apostate, a heretic.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Ariel wrote:
> this is an ignorant answer, proper of a deluded fanatic.
No, he is completely correct. You are defining Judaism as tho' it were just any
other religion.
Susan
Ariel
"Paul Abeles" <spama...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:1UFo9.48813$g9.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
If you were right, half (if not more) of Israel's jews, the seculars,
wouln't be considered jews and then Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish
entity.
Truth is, about 50-60% of Israel's jews are secular,almost apostate, and
they are considered Jews by the state of Israel.
wrong on this one Paul.
if you still think you're right, please provide proof. I'd be curious to
know your source.
Ariel
if we were to follow your line of thinking, and goldmans, and the
orthodox's, we would find ourselves as being the descendants of adam and eve
(and not products of evolution and natural selection), we would think that
the earth is 5000 years old (an not 4 billion as geological proof confirms)
that the earth is the centre of the universe (and not a molecule amid an
ocean of vastness) and that the sun rotates around the earth.
keep theology in the classroom and dont apply it to everyday life.
keep religion as what it is, a spiritual, subjective thing.
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
news:3DA32D96...@hers.com...
Paul Abeles
"Ariel" <arielv...@latinmail.com> wrote in message
news:JfGo9.2368$NV.3...@news.direcpc.com...
Im referring to the Law of Return.
Jan Pieter Verhey
A sinning one?? Oh my..can you explain?
>
> Susan
>
Patricia Heil
Jan Pieter Verhey
"Paul Abeles" <spama...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:1UFo9.48813$g9.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
Not true.
Paul Abeles
"Jan Pieter Verhey" <janpiete...@12move.nl> wrote in message
news:anvear$jv1$1...@reader1.tiscali.nl...
Consulted by the Court, the Chief Rabbi of Israel confirmed that Brother
Daniel must be considered Jewish. Nonetheless the judge refused to accord
Jewish nationality to any individual who had been born Jewish but who had
voluntarily converted to another religion. This decision was based not on
any legal criterion but on a criteria of public opinion (subsequently to
become law). In the words of Judge Berensohn: "An apostate Jew cannot be
considered Jewish in the sense understood by the Knesset in the Law of
Return and in the popular acceptation of today."
Paul Abeles
"Patricia Heil" <pjay...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3DA33D33...@erols.com...
Consulted by the Court, the Chief Rabbi of Israel confirmed that Brother
Susan Cohen
Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
Because he is not fulfilling the obligations incumbent upon him as a
Jew, he is not worshipping as he should, etc.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Ariel wrote:
> "Paul Abeles" <spama...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:1UFo9.48813$g9.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > "Deborah" <dlt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:4af03591.02100...@posting.google.com...
> > > "mercedes" <merced...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >The Torah I think is the the first 5 books of the Christian
> > > >Old Testament. Could a Jew just interprete the Torah differently,
> > > >believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and still be considered a Jew?
> > >
> > > A Jew remains a Jew.
> >
> > A Jew in apostasy is not considered a Jew by the state of Israel.
> >
> Wrong!
Um, actually, if the sinner is also a missionizer, Israel won't let them in.
>
> If you were right, half (if not more) of Israel's jews, the seculars,
> wouln't be considered jews and then Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish
> entity.
> Truth is, about 50-60% of Israel's jews are secular,almost apostate, and
> they are considered Jews by the state of Israel.
> wrong on this one Paul.
> if you still think you're right, please provide proof. I'd be curious to
> know your source.
There was a case where a Jew who had gone so far in apostacy as to be a
missionizing *clergy member* was denied entry into Israel. Of course,
missionizing is against the law in Israel, so maybe that was it.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Ariel wrote:
> your interpretation is theological, mystical.
Well, DUH! :-D
> if we were to follow your line of thinking, and goldmans, and the
> orthodox's, we would find ourselves as being the descendants of adam and eve
> (and not products of evolution and natural selection),
Incorrect statement; I do notsee the two as being mutually exclusive.
> we would think that
> the earth is 5000 years old (an not 4 billion as geological proof confirms)
Again...
> that the earth is the centre of the universe (and not a molecule amid an
> ocean of vastness) and that the sun rotates around the earth.
This is NOT what Judaism has ever taught. You're thinking of Galileo.
> keep theology in the classroom and dont apply it to everyday life.
What an awful way to live, devoid of spirituality!
> keep religion as what it is, a spiritual, subjective thing.
Well, how else would you expect human beings to live?
Otherwise, we're no better than the animals!
Susan
Susan Cohen
Patricia Heil wrote:
> No.
Only according to a small percentage of the American Reform.
Susan
Ariel
we have in common our love for Israel but we're light years appart on
religion.
you ask: "Well, how else would you expect human beings to live?
Otherwise, we're no better than the animals!
so, anyone thats not religious is an animal?....nice....all those scientists
operating in the emergency rooms, saving lives, all those idiots that
invented the computer you're writing on...well..they're animals because they
transcended the religious frontier and they rely on science to live and
thrive.
very shortsighted you are little girl.
religion is rotting your right hemisphere.
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
news:3DA3411F...@hers.com...
Tilly
> Ariel wrote:
>
>> this is an ignorant answer, proper of a deluded fanatic.
You are wrong Susan.
> No, he is completely correct. You are defining Judaism as tho' it
> were just any other religion.
Most people in Israel are almost completely irreligious.
I remember when I first went to live there I was shocked.They are not
considered apostates by the State of Israel, although the religious clearly
don't approve.
Tilly
>>
>>
>> "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
>> news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
>>> There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a Christian,
>>> Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
>>> he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone
>>> else liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and
>>> for beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away
>>> from it.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:14:07 -0400, "mercedes"
>>> <merced...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>>>>
>>>> This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
>>>> Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept
>>>> Jesus as
>> his
>>>> Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
>>>>
>>>> I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice
>>>> any religion but cannot be a member of another religion. But,
>>>> Jesus was a Jew....then is Christianity considered an acceptable
>>>> practice as far as the Jewish community and religious leaders are
>>>> concerned?
>>>>
>>>> Hmmmm. Comments anyone?
--
climbaboard@remove_me.hotmail.com
Commander Riker
> Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>
> This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
> Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept Jesus as his
> Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
>
> I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice any
> religion but cannot be a member of another religion. But, Jesus was a
> Jew....then is Christianity considered an acceptable practice as far as the
> Jewish community and religious leaders are concerned?
>
> Hmmmm. Comments anyone?
You've never heard of the religious group "Jews for Jesus"?
Publius
Being a Jew is a matter of Race and not Religion.
Alan Dershowitz, in a debate with Rabbi Kahane
admitted he was an Atheist (see "The Vanishing American
Jew") and the Rabbi said "You are then a Racist."
But when they parted it was arm-in-arm withe the Rabbi
saying: "Better an Atheist Jew than npo Jew at all."
I am a Christian as a matter of Race as a mmember of
Western Man - a Race whose Religion is Western Christianity.
Your question , then, is moot. PUBLIUS
Henry
Publius wrote:
No. You are stupid and senseless.
"Western Christianity" as a race! What's next?
Jake
> >I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice any
> >religion but cannot be a member of another religion. But, Jesus was a
> >Jew....then is Christianity considered an acceptable practice as far as the
> >Jewish community and religious leaders are concerned?
> >
> >Hmmmm. Comments anyone?<
The moment a Jew gets baptized,or otherwise formally goes over to
another faith, he is no longer part of the Jewish people, the Jewish
community. Whether or not a Jew actively practices his faith is
a different question. Theoretically, a Jew who blasphemes or renounces
God could have been excommunicated if there were still a Sanhedrin.
But since there is no longer a theological body that can reimpose
ancient religious law, the question is moot. There is no "sharia"
or halachic law in Israel. Israel is fundamentally a secular democratic
state.
Jake
> There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a Christian,
> Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
> he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
> liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
> beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
> it. <
A Jew who formally adopts another faith, via baptism or some such
fundamental act of passing into another faith is no longer part
of the Jewish nation. Whether or not God will "punish" him for it,
or not, is pure speculation. But he is no longer part of the community.
He can no longer be married by a rabbi to a Jew. A female convert's
children are not Jewish and would have to convert to Judaism like any
other non-Jew who seeks to part of the Jewish nation.
>
> On Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:14:07 -0400, "mercedes"
> <merced...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
> >
> >This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
> >Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept Jesus as his
> >Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
> >
Jake
> "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
> > There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a Christian,
> > Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
> > he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
> > liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
> > beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
> > it.
>
> still be a jew?<
No. Once you take on baptism you have formally left the Jewish nation.
Many Jews experiment with other paths, become "messianic" Jews or
Jews for Jesus, but until they've accepted Baptism it is just
"straying." Once it is known that you've been baptized, you are no
longer part of the Jewish community. An orthodox rabbi will not marry
you to a Jewish girl, and if you are female you're children are not
Jewish. They would have to go through at least some sort of conversion
procedure, perhaps abbreviated, if they sought to return to the Jewish
nation. Judaism is not a universal religion as is Christianity or
Islam. It is an integral part of Jewish nationhood.
Jake
> mercedes wrote:
>
> > Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus
>
> Tzu? Yes.
>
> > and still be a Jew?
>
A Jew can do anything, stray and experiment any which way, but the
moment he submits to baptism, or otherwise FORMALLY accepts another
faith, he is
under Jewish law no longer part of the Jewish nation. Once he has
FORMALLY
become part of another faith, he has left the Jewish nation. An
orthodox
rabbi will not marry him to a Jewish woman, and the children of a
female
convert out of Judaism are not Jews. THat's the law. Ignorance of the
law is no excuse.
Red Herring
>Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
Absolutely not. According to the Torah, G-d blots Jews who worship
other gods out of His Book:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have
sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him
will I blot out of my book " (Exodus 32:31,33)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
"I don't know a [Saudi] man, woman, or child who was not happy about what happened
in the U.S. [on 9/11/2001]" (Abdullah Al-Sabeh, a professor of psychology at
Riyadh's Imam Muhammed bin Saud Islamic University, Business Week, 11/26/2001)
Deborah Nyob
>A Jew in apostasy is not considered a Jew by the state
>of Israel.
No, that person shall not be admitted as a Jew under
the 1970 amendment to the Law of Return as follows:
4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights
of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952, as well
as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are
also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the
spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the
spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, EXCEPT FOR A PERSON WHO HAS
BEEN A JEW AND HAS VOLUNTARILY CHANGED HIS RELIGION.
[emphasis added]
(b) It shall be immaterial whether or not a Jew by whose
right a right under subsection (a) is claimed is still
alive and whether or not he has immigrated to Israel.
(c) The restrictions and conditions prescribed in respect
of a Jew or an oleh by or under this Law or by the enactments
referred to in subsection (a) shall also apply to a person
who claims a right under subsection (a).
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who
was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to
Judaism and who IS NOT A MEMBER OF ANOTHER RELIGION.
A Jew remains a Jew - an apostate, but still a Jew.
Deborah
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
mercedes
> >Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>
> Absolutely not. According to the Torah, G-d blots Jews who worship
> other gods out of His Book:
>
Could one plead 'interpretation' of what Torah says and announce a belief in
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
<merced...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>
>This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
>Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept Jesus as his
>Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
>
>I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice any
>religion but cannot be a member of another religion. But, Jesus was a
>Jew....then is Christianity considered an acceptable practice as far as the
>Jewish community and religious leaders are concerned?
>
>Hmmmm. Comments anyone?
>
Once a jew always a jew. The religion (if any) that a jew assumes is
irrelevant.
Paul Abeles
> well i just happen to disagree with you Susan
> we have in common our love for Israel but we're light years appart on
> religion.
> you ask: "Well, how else would you expect human beings to live?
> Otherwise, we're no better than the animals!
> LOL! sorry but you made me laugh
> so, anyone thats not religious is an animal?....nice....all those
scientists
> operating in the emergency rooms, saving lives, all those idiots that
> invented the computer you're writing on...well..they're animals because
they
> transcended the religious frontier and they rely on science to live and
> thrive.
> very shortsighted you are little girl.
> religion is rotting your right hemisphere.
And don't forget Einstein the most famous Jew of all, he was so religious he
had himself cremated and his ashes scattered
Paul Abeles
"The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe" <rene...@anglicam.org> wrote in message
news:3da3bbf2...@news.onetel.net.uk...
Ah Hitler is resurrected.
Jan Pieter Verhey
I agree.. in that case..
next movie: Jesus Sinning Christ Superstar
Jan Pieter Verhey
OK.. perhaps he is considered Jew (namely an apostate one), but not
allowed to return.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
(circumcised)
>Well, how else would you expect human beings to live?
>Otherwise, we're no better than the animals!
>
>Suzy
You said it yourself, Suzy. You're no better than the animals.
Susan Cohen
Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
> news:3DA34039...@hers.com...
> >
> > > > He will still be a Jew, but a sinning one. An apostate, a
> heretic.
> > >
> > > A sinning one?? Oh my..can you explain?
> >
> > Because he is not fulfilling the obligations incumbent upon him as
> a
> > Jew, he is not worshipping as he should, etc.
>
> I agree.. in that case..
> next movie: Jesus Sinning Christ Superstar
You know, I watched that - I could see why the RC's had a fit w/it.
Made Jesus out to be a snot-nose & Judas out to be a tortured
do-gooder!!
Susan
Susan Cohen
Jake wrote:
> "Sparkup" <non...@yourbusiness.org> wrote in message news:<VWBo9.20197$zX3....@news.indigo.ie>...
> > "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
> > news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
> > > There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a Christian,
> > > Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
> > > he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
> > > liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
> > > beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
> > > it.
> >
> > But can you accept Jesus as the messiah (central to being a christian) and
> > still be a jew?<
>
> No. Once you take on baptism you have formally left the Jewish nation.
You are obviously a Reform Jew. No one else believes this.
Heck, not even Jew-*haters* believe it - the irony is delicious.
> Many Jews experiment with other paths, become "messianic" Jews or
> Jews for Jesus, but until they've accepted Baptism it is just
> "straying."
Yes, for which you have to do tshuvah. Not that one has to, or even can "convert back."
> Once it is known that you've been baptized, you are no
> longer part of the Jewish community.
Only in the social aense - unless, of course, one is an American Reform.
> An orthodox rabbi will not marry
> you to a Jewish girl,
Really? I would have to say that this would be more because such a marriage would be doomed
> and if you are female you're children are not
> Jewish.
This is not true.
They are Jewish, but people may just not be sure.
> They would have to go through at least some sort of conversion
> procedure, perhaps abbreviated, if they sought to return to the Jewish
> nation.
Again, only for American Reform.
> Judaism is not a universal religion as is Christianity or
> Islam. It is an integral part of Jewish nationhood.
Which is why you *canNOT* leave, as you claim.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
> "Paul Abeles" <spama...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:0%Go9.48827$g9.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/50/act/shvut/17.html
>
> OK.. perhaps he is considered Jew (namely an apostate one), but not
> allowed to return.
Exactly. As I said elsewhere, to allow him entry would defeat the
purpose of the Law of Return.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Ariel wrote:
> well i just happen to disagree with you Susan
> we have in common our love for Israel but we're light years appart on
> religion.
> you ask: "Well, how else would you expect human beings to live?
> Otherwise, we're no better than the animals!
> LOL! sorry but you made me laugh
I'm sorry it made you laugh.
> so, anyone thats not religious is an animal?....nice....
No, it's not nice. More like "anyone with no spitiruality" is an animal; people
with nor order to their lives, etc.
> all those scientists
> operating in the emergency rooms, saving lives,
Dolphins have doctors. Did you know this?
> all those idiots that
> invented the computer you're writing on...
Many of whom were Jewish to be sure. No one said they were idiots. Well, maybe
*you*.
> well..they're animals because they
> transcended the religious frontier and they rely on science to live and
> thrive.
First off, you are assuming they have no religious feelings.
Secodnly, you are conflating two separate issues.
> very shortsighted you are little girl.
How sad of you to pick up on the bigot's trick.
And how very shortsighted of *you*.
> religion is rotting your right hemisphere.
In your uninformed opinion.
Susan Cohen
Tilly wrote:
> Susan Cohen wrote:
> > Ariel wrote:
> >
> >> this is an ignorant answer, proper of a deluded fanatic.
>
> You are wrong Susan.
I beg yourpardon? This is what *Ariel* said.
> > No, he is completely correct. You are defining Judaism as tho' it
> > were just any other religion.
>
> Most people in Israel are almost completely irreligious.
> I remember when I first went to live there I was shocked.They are not
> considered apostates by the State of Israel, although the religious clearly
> don't approve.
Um, we're not talking about "irreligious."
We're talking about Jews who decide to follow *other religions*.
They most definitely are considered apostates by Israel; they can't come in
under the Law fo Return, either.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Commander Riker wrote:
> You've never heard of the religious group "Jews for Jesus"?
Yes, they are an offshoot of one of the Baptist Conventions. They are run & funded by them, and they do
manage to snare some ignorant Jews into committing apostacy. However, this neither makes the Baptists
Jews, nor does it make the Jews Baptists. Except, of course, in the eyes of the Baptists (who really
don't want to be Jews - they just want to fool Jews). But Baptists don't get to say who is or is not a
Jew. Jewish law does that.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Publius wrote:
What a marooon. Kahane was never the spokema for Judaism - this certainly proves it. The rest of the post
is even*sillier*.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Red Herring wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:14:07 -0400, "mercedes"
> <merced...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>
> Absolutely not.
Er, no, absolutely so.
> According to the Torah, G-d blots Jews who worship
> other gods out of His Book:
He blots them out; He doesn't make them *not* Jews.
Susan
Susan Cohen
mercedes wrote:
Again, one can sin & still be a Jew.
But one cannot plead interptetation of the Torah & say one believes in Jesus as
a result of it; one would not lead to the other.
You can be a Jew & practice Xianity, the same way you can be a Jew and eat ham
sandwiches & violate Shabbos, etc.
You canNOT practice Judaism & Xianity at the same time; the two are antithical.
Susan
Yvida
ya?
"mercedes" <merced...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cIBo9.407$Rb4....@eagle.america.net...
> Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>
Binyamin Dissen
:>> >Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
A Jew can believe in aliens, Santa Claus, etc. and would remain a Jew.
Nothing a Jew does, says or believes stops him from being a Jew.
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
Look at the rest of the thread, asshole. The jews agree with me.
Deborah Nyob
>Whay if you guys are wrong and Jesus really is the Messiah.
>How sure are ya?
Deborah
Why Don't Jews Believe in Jesus?
by Rabbi Shraga Simmons
For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus
as messiah. Why?
It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus.
The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to
clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available,
the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual
path.
Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
At the end of this article, we will examine these additional
topics:
5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology
6) Jews and Gentiles
7) Bringing the Messiah
1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that
he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression,
suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword
against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will
unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all
the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be
One" (Zechariah 14:9).
The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic
prophecies.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming,
but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies
outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH
A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET
Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the
land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of
Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from
Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets
-- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy
had ended.
B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David
(see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim
that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and
thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of
being descended on his father's side from King David.
C. TORAH OBSERVANCE
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance.
The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone
coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false
prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states
that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9
:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)
3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original
Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian
translation.
A. VIRGIN BIRTH
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in
Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma"
has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came
centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus'
birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated
by gods.
B. CRUCIFIXION
The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands
and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically
similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as
a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."
C. SUFFERING SERVANT
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the
"suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52,
describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The
prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews
("Israel")
are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the
Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the
11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who
acted in the name of Jesus.
From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century
Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary
to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they
admire."
4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION
Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its
belief
on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If
God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone,
not just one person.
Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not
rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact,
the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to
charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):
"The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the
miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing
miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles
were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed
by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as
proof of his prophecy."
What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount
Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears,
not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face,
God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this
covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive
today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience
of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years
ago.
See "Did God Speak at Mount Sinai" for further reading.
5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY
The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman
Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.
A. GOD AS THREE?
The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings:
The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O
Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare
the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and
binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's
One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the
last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry --
one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his
life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and
throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.
B. MAN AS GOD?
Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form,
as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the
fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes
no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond
space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes
human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His
divinity.
As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and
possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not
be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact,
an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step
into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)
C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?
The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an
intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself
is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but
by me."
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each
individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who
call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments
state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that
it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see
Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch.1)
D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD
Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be
avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests
and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded
locations.
By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not
to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes
through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and
elevates.
Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.
The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit
and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World
to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle
of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.
6) JEWS AND GENTILES
Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The
Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not.
King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to
the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the
Temple as a "House for all nations."
The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corres-
ponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the
Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from
the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.
Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the
Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known
as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human
being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper
place in heaven.
For further study of the Seven Laws of Noah, see:
Bnei Noah of Fort Worth
http://www.fastlane.net/~bneinoah/
Path of the Righteous Gentile
http://www.chabad.org/gopher/outlook/7laws/index.html
7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH
Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam)
is part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the
world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality
and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation
for the Messianic age.
Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War
and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family
life.
To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent
we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first
questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for
the arrival of the Messiah?"
How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to
love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah
(as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.
Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption.
One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the
Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement
is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.
The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions.
God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will
come today -- if you hearken to His voice."
http://www.aish.com/societywork/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp
Deborah
>>Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>>This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
>>Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept Jesus as his
>>Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
>>I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice any
>>religion but cannot be a member of another religion. But, Jesus was a
>>Jew....then is Christianity considered an acceptable practice as far as
>>the Jewish community and religious leaders are concerned?
>>Hmmmm. Comments anyone?
--
Paul Abeles
To quote AGAIN. " In the words of Judge Berensohn: "An apostate Jew
Paul Abeles
"Deborah Nyob" <dlt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:67c341ec0620fc6f10e...@mygate.mailgate.org...
God is a myth anyhow. Jesus as messiah has no meaning.
God is simply a response by primitives to unknown natural forces.
Jan Pieter Verhey
..
> > OK.. perhaps he is considered Jew (namely an apostate one), but
not
> > allowed to return.
> >
> >
>
>
> To quote AGAIN. " In the words of Judge Berensohn: "An apostate
Jew
> cannot be considered Jewish in the sense understood by the Knesset
in the
> Law of Return and in the popular acceptation of today."
But does he then say, in your opinion, that such a person is not
Jewish anymore, or not Jewish enough to return?
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
<cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
>"Paul Abeles" <spama...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>news:ZNSo9.49261$g9.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>No, what he has said is absolutely true (for once), according to Jewish law
>and as accepted by Orthodox, Conservative, and much of Reform.
>
>Best regards,
>--Cindy S.
Actually, the only point on which I disagree with you people is
'conversion' to jewdism. Once a gentile always a gentile.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>
>
>"Cindy S." wrote:
>
>> "Paul Abeles" <spama...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>> news:ZNSo9.49261$g9.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>> >
>> > "The phony Revd/Kook Razovic/G. Draper" <www.anglican.org/nutjob/html> wrote
>> in message
>> >
>> > > Once a jew [sic] always a jew [sic]. The religion (if any) that a jew
>> assumes is
>> > > irrelevant.
>> >
>> > Ah Hitler is resurrected.
>>
>> No, what he has said is absolutely true (for once), according to Jewish law
>> and as accepted by Orthodox, Conservative, and much of Reform.
>
>As I said, the irony is delicious. I love it when their bigotry backfires on
>them.
>
>Suzy
Oh you dumb, dumb Irish bitch, Suzy. There is no irony involved. If
you are born into the jew race you remain a jew. If you are not, then
you can never become one. Geez, are all you people as thick as
pigshit?
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>
>
>Suzy
In that case, nobody but the Palestinians should get to say who is or
is not a Palestinian. Certainly the jews have no say in it.
Susan Cohen
Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
Exactly. The key phrase is not "cannot be considered Jewish".
The key phrase is "Jewish in the sense understood by the Knesset in the
Law of Return"
Susan
Susan Cohen
Yvida wrote:
> Whay if you guys are wrong and Jesus really is the Messiah.
What if the sky is purple with green stripes?
> How sure are ya?
Obviously more sure than you are!
Susan
Yvida
>
> To quote AGAIN. " In the words of Judge Berensohn: "An apostate Jew
> cannot be
> > considered Jewish in the sense understood by the Knesset in the
> Law of
> > Return and in the popular acceptation of today."
>
But, a Jew could 'interprete' from the Torah in that Jesus is the Messiah
and still be Jewish and a follower of Judaism. Shoot, in Christianity,
Christians interprete the same Scripture in many different ways. So, a Jew
studing the Torah comes to the conclusion that the Messiah has come in
Jesus -- its just his interpretation of the Torah.
chano
faith.The fundamental belief of Judaism is "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God,
the Lord is One!". Christianity believes in the Holy Trinity of God the
Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is obvious that a person cannot
accept the Unity of God AND the Trinity of God at the same time since these
are conflicting beliefs; God is One, not three. Therefore it must logically
follow that if a Jew converts to Christianity he has of necessity abdicated
his Jewish Faith.
Chano
Mel
Well, I doubt you are more sure than I am that Jesus is the Messiah, the
Christ, the Saviour, the 'only way to the Father' in "I am the way and the
truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except thru me."
Jake
> Jake wrote:
> .
> > No. Once you take on baptism you have formally left the Jewish nation.
>
> You are obviously a Reform Jew. No one else believes this.
> Heck, not even Jew-*haters* believe it - the irony is delicious.
>
> > Many Jews experiment with other paths, become "messianic" Jews or
> > Jews for Jesus, but until they've accepted Baptism it is just
> > "straying."
>
> Yes, for which you have to do tshuvah. Not that one has to, or even can "convert back."<
I do not believe REPENTANCE ("tshuva") is sufficient to be accepted
back into the fold. Of course, it is up to a rabbinical Jewish
court to decide.
> > Once it is known that you've been baptized, you are no
> > longer part of the Jewish community.
>
> Only in the social aense - unless, of course, one is an American
Reform.<
I went to Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin. I am not a practicing
orthodox Jew,but I think I know something about the subject.
> > An orthodox rabbi will not marry
> > you to a Jewish girl,
>
> Really? I would have to say that this would be more because such a
marriage would be doomed<
Not, it's just not allowed. I married and got divorced from two
Jewish women, and others I know married non-Jewish "shiksas" and
have good marriages. It has nothing to do with anything. The simple
fact is, that the child of a non-Jewish woman is not a Jew. Period.
That's what it's about.
> > and if you are female you're children are not
> > Jewish.
> This is not true.
> They are Jewish, but people may just not be sure.<
I don't know where you get your halacha from, a cracker jack box?
> > They would have to go through at least some sort of conversion
> > procedure, perhaps abbreviated, if they sought to return to the Jewish
> > nation.
>
> Again, only for American Reform.<
What yeshiva did you study in? Beis Yaakov?
> > Judaism is not a universal religion as is Christianity or
> > Islam. It is an integral part of Jewish nationhood.<
>
> Which is why you *canNOT* leave, as you claim.<
You can lose your citizenship in America if you go into a US embassy
and renounce it, and you can lose your "citizenship" in the JEwish
nation by going into a Church and getting baptized, or accepting
Muhammad as the Prophet of God. Of COURSE you can leave the Jewish
nation, if someone else will have you. But since most antisemitism
is racist in nature anyway, most Jews wouldn't REALLY be accepted
no matter how much they go to church.
Jake
> Warning: no snips, for full context> > news:3DA32C4C...@hers.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Sparkup wrote:
> > >
> > > > "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
> > > > > There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a
> Christian,
> > > > > Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona
> fide Jew,
> > > > > he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like
> everyone else
> > > > > liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and
> for
> > > > > beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get
> away from
> > > > > it.
> > > >
> christian) and
> > > > still be a jew?
> > >
> > > He will still be a Jew, but a sinning one. An apostate, a heretic.
> >
> > A sinning one?? Oh my..can you explain?
>
> Because he is not fulfilling the obligations incumbent upon him as a
> Jew, he is not worshipping as he should, etc.
>
The Thirteen Articles of Maimonides
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The existence of God;
2. His unity;
3. His spirituality;
4. His eternity;
5. God alone the object of worship;
6. Revelation through his prophets;
7. The preeminence of Moses among the Prophets;
8. God's law given on Mount Sinai;
9. The immutability of the Torah as God's Law;
10. God's foreknowledge of men's actions;
11. Retribution;
12. The coming of the Messiah;
13. Resurrection.
Jake
> > > You are missing the point.
> > > He will still be a Jew, but a sinning one. An apostate, a heretic.
> >
> > A sinning one?? Oh my..can you explain?
>
> Because he is not fulfilling the obligations incumbent upon him as a
> Jew, he is not worshipping as he should, etc.
>
> SusanL<
Rabbinical Responsa to Attempts of Conversos to Return to Judaism
1390 - present
By David Kunin
David Kunin is rabbi to Congregation Ohr Shalom in San Diego, with
previous pulpits in Glasgow, Scotland and Elmira, NY. He has a BA in
History from Brandeis University and was ordained from the the Jewish
Theological Seminary. He has published a number of articles relating
to Halacha.
Rabbi Kunin stressed that his presentation would survey the detailed
history first, introducing Halacha, or Jewish law, and then present
various responses. Halacha, he explained, is unlike many other systems
of law in that it allows for a wide latitude of interpretation, and in
fact diversity of opinion is a hallmark of Jewish law. Decision making
is not based on a sense of Absolute Truth but on the methodology used
and the sincerity of the search to do God's will. Decision making is
left to the smallest possible unit: the local community and its
rabbis. Halacha is therefore not static; every generation for roughly
the last 2,000 years has caused it to evolve and address present
needs. And, it is localized, leading to a variety of differing
opinions on an issue, reflecting the realities and needs of different
communities. All of these elements of Halacha are key to understanding
the responsa as they relate to questions of Anousim.
Rabbi Kunin chose to focus on major responsa from the fourteenth to
sixteenth centuries C.E., but first gave a necessary introduction to
some of the earliest discussions on forced apostasy from early
Talmudic writings, since along with the Mishnah, the Talmud formed the
basis of all Halachic decision making. In the second century, Rabbi
Akiva thought it was better to die than to commit idolatry, stating
that any commandment could be broken under the threat of death except
for murder, incest, and idolatry. Rabbi Ishmael, on the other hand,
felt it was better to live and commit idolatry than to die, since "the
law is given to live by, not die by," as long as the perpetrator acted
in private and did not try to influence other adult Jews. Both of
these opinions were influential in the Middle Ages, echoed notably by
Rashi and Maimonides, respectively, who were the two major decisors in
regards to the Anousim. Each came from very different communities and
realities which particularly influenced their opinions.
Rashi, or Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac, lived in the eleventh century,
during the time of the first Crusade, in northern France. Due to the
Crusade, many Jews in the area were forced to convert. Rashi said they
should be considered as full Jews, and that the community should
facilitate their return. Every consideration should be paid to those
wishing to return, including never using the word "convert," only
"anous," or "one who was forced." However, he did not see them as
absolved from punishment for things done when Christians, or for
converting. Various deeds of penance were required, and they were to
be carefully watched to make sure they were sincere in their return.
It was also implied that a return ceremony was necessary, entailing a
brit milah for men if it had not been done; immersion in a mikvah; and
to accept the observances of the mitzvot before a beit din. But
another rabbi of the northern France/German community, Rabbi Gershon,
said he would excommunicate anyone who embarrassed an anous, or
reminded him of his conversion, before or after his/her return.
Maimonides, or, Moses ben Maimon, AKA the Ramban, was born in Muslim
Andalucia, and survived the Al-Mohad invasion of the region which
involved a large scale forced conversion of Jews to Islam. His family
was possibly among those forced to convert. His personal experiences
and locale shape his responsa, which basically assert that anousim are
full Jews, and, unlike Rashi's belief, are also in good standing vis a
vis the law. Maimonides was more interested in the subject's
clandestine observance of Judaism than if he had been forced to
convert to either Islam or Christianity. He wrote, "He who performs
the commandments secretly can expect a greater reward than he who
performs them openly." He also felt that those wishing to return to
Judaism should be welcomed and not ever called sinners or
transgressors, nor should any penance of return/conversion ceremony be
required of them.
The specific situation of each of the above rabbis thus influenced his
response to anousim: Rashi was dealing with a relatively small number
of forced converts as well as an Ashkenazic tradition which favored
martyrdom over conversion, a la Rabbi Akiva's comments of the second
century. Maimonides, however, witnessed the attempt of the Moors to
return the entire Iberian peninsula to Islamic orthodoxy, forcing the
conversion of whole communties. Therefore, in order that whole
communities not be destroyed through martyrdom, he advocated Rabbi
Ishmael's thoughts of "the law was made to live by, not to die by,"
and advocated conversion over death. These two attitudes in term
served as the basis for all subsequent responsa concerning anousim:
Rashi's proposal to accept anousim with suspicion and some ceremony of
conversion became the basis for the Ashkenazic responsa, and
Maimonides' advice to welcome them openly without restriction or added
requirements became the basis of the Sephardic responsa. Rabbi Kunin
illustrated this with several historical examples including those of
Algerian rabbis in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries representing
the Sephardic responsa, and others representing the Ashkenazi
viewpoint. He then reviewed examples of modern writer's responsa to
the question of anusim, found on Shulamith Halevy's website. These are
Rabbi Mordecai Eliahu, former chief rabbi of Israel, who wrote that
anousim should be "drawn in with kindness and praised," but should
undergo brit milah, have a mikvah, learn Torah, and obtain a
certificate of conversion or return and Aharon Solaveychik of Chicago,
who stated that anousim should be allowed to participate fully in
Jewish life, be included in minyans and given aliyot, but only when
deciding to marry a Jew should they undergo full conversion.
Rabbi Kunin concluded that it is thus valuable to look at the array of
opinions available to us on the question of returning anousim, which
leaves us with one big question regarding the specific needs of our
own communities today: is it now necessary to follow Rashi in terms of
requirements for anousim, or might it not be possible to follow the
ideas of Maimonides, which offer a more sensitive and welcoming
approach to those who wish to rejoin their people.?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HaLapid on the Web is sponsored and hosted by
http://sephardiconnect.com
Jake
> "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
> > There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a Christian,
> > Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
> > he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
> > liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
> > beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
> > it.
> >
>
> Could a Jew just interprete the Torah differently, believe in Jesus as the
> subject of Jesus even considered in Synagod discussion and worship?<
No, Jesus is not given any more consideration in Judaism than is
Muhammad or the Angel Maroni. While I personally appreciate and
can respond emotionally to a Son who laid down his life, suffered
and went to Hell to save the world, Judaism simply has a very
different
"salvation plan." From the JEwish point of view, the "suffering
servant" in Isaiah is the Jewish people who, in essence, suffer FROM
the sins of the world. While the sacrifice of Jesus FREED the Gentiles
from the burden of the Law, by faith, from the Jewish point of view,
the Gentiles never had to carry that burden in the first place. The
"burden" or yoke of the Law was placed on the Hebrews at Mount Sinai,
and as nation designated to a nation of priests and scribes, we are
supposed to live by carefully observing the Laws or the "works" or
"mitzot" as we call the 613 "do's and don'ts." To achieve salvation,
all the REST
of the world has to do is live a decent life. No need for sacrifices,
for blood, but only to believe in God and live a decent life. So, as
far as Judaism is concerned, the sacrifice of Jesus is quite redundant
and unnecessary. However, if it focuses people on God and keeps them
on the straight and narrow, that's fine. Any path that brings people
to God and decent, moral behavior is okay. WE don't claim that our
path is "the way." It is the Jewish way, but if it throws off some
light which helps others find their way to God, then that's our
positive
contribution to humanity.
Susan Cohen
chano wrote:
> A Jew cannot accept Jesus as the Messiah and still hold his/her Jewish
> faith.
He would not be *practising* the faith, no. But it is impossible to leave it.
> The fundamental belief of Judaism is "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God,
> the Lord is One!". Christianity believes in the Holy Trinity of God the
> Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is obvious that a person cannot
> accept the Unity of God AND the Trinity of God at the same time since these
> are conflicting beliefs; God is One, not three. Therefore it must logically
> follow that if a Jew converts to Christianity he has of necessity abdicated
> his Jewish Faith.
He is sinning, yes, but he has not stopped being a Jew.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Mel wrote:
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
> news:3DA4942E...@hers.com...
> >
> >
> > Yvida wrote:
> >
> > > Whay if you guys are wrong and Jesus really is the Messiah.
> >
> > What if the sky is purple with green stripes?
> >
> > > How sure are ya?
> >
> > Obviously more sure than you are!
> >
> > Susan
> >
>
> Well, I doubt you are more sure than I am that Jesus is the Messiah, the
> Christ, the Saviour,
You should doubt that I in any way that, since I never even implied that I
did.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>
>
>Jake wrote:
>
>> "Sparkup" <non...@yourbusiness.org> wrote in message news:<VWBo9.20197$zX3....@news.indigo.ie>...
>> > "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
>> > news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
>> > > There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a Christian,
>> > > Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona fide Jew,
>> > > he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like everyone else
>> > > liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and for
>> > > beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get away from
>> > > it.
>> >
>> > But can you accept Jesus as the messiah (central to being a christian) and
>> > still be a jew?<
>>
>> No. Once you take on baptism you have formally left the Jewish nation.
>
>You are obviously a Reform Jew. No one else believes this.
>Heck, not even Jew-*haters* believe it - the irony is delicious.
You still don't get it, do you Suzy? You can't stop being a jew
because it's a racial distinction. Likewise if you're not born a jew
you can't become one.
(circumcised)
>> Judaism is not a universal religion as is Christianity or
>> Islam. It is an integral part of Jewish nationhood.
>
>Which is why you *canNOT* leave, as you claim.
>
>Suzy
The reason you can't leave is because it's racial.
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
<post...@dissensoftware.com> wrote:
>On 9 Oct 2002 05:33:25 -0700 jga...@hotmail.com (Jake) wrote:
>
> [ snipped ]
>
>:>I'm not a talmudic scholar. But one way to find out, is to get a
>:>baptismal certificate from the church that baptizes you, then try
>:>to marry an orthodox Jew by an orthodox rabbi.
>
>Why would an Orthodox Jew wish to marry someone who isn't religious?
Because even he finds other religious jews too obnoxious?
Mel
> Not, it's just not allowed. I married and got divorced from two
> Jewish women, and others I know married non-Jewish "shiksas" and
> have good marriages. It has nothing to do with anything. The simple
> fact is, that the child of a non-Jewish woman is not a Jew. Period.
> That's what it's about.
>
Someone posted that if one member of the household is Jewish, then all are
Jewish.
Seems like for identifying the 'fringe' areas, even Jews cannot agree amonst
themselves and disagree dramatically :-)
Jan Pieter Verhey
As someone said: "one recognises a messiah on the mess he leaves
behind"
On the other hand, from my POV and as a secular non-Jew, I would
have liked him, this excentric and provocative reformer Yeshua that
fought the excessive pharisee and rabbinic Torah-chewing and
addiction to written laws, and wanted Judaism to be an alive social
happy happening that also cared for the forgotten or despised
people, not something as dead as the paper the Torah was written on.
This of course, was then and is also now a danger to anyone seeking
truth in ink and paper.
Cindy S.
Do you honestly believe what you have written here, or are you deliberately
trying to provoke an argument?
Best regards,
--Cindy S.
>
>
Paul Abeles
"Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DGop9.644$A57.1...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
'Cause he believes it and I agree with him.
Susan Cohen
Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
Good thing no one's really doing that, and an even better thing that
those of us who do follow Torah are following a living law thatis as
vibrant now as when it was written. Such is the nature of Torah - it is
eternal and self-renewing.
Susan
Jan Pieter Verhey
"Cindy S." <cst...@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DGop9.644$A57.1...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
I truly believe in what I wrote. How can Yeshua be provocative to
Judaism? He was a good man. Maybe a bit of a border-schizophrenic,
but his ideas on the good life, justice and what really is important
were all an expression of the core of Judaism.
In as far as his meta-physical concepts were "crazy", they were not
crazier than any other meta-physical concept rampant in that region
and even today adhered to by any average religious person. Better be
totally crazy, than only half-crazy thinking one is sane.
Vicki
> >
> > The Torah I think is the the first 5 books of the Christian Old
Testament.
> > Could a Jew just interprete the Torah differently, believe in Jesus as
the
> > Messiah, and still be considered a Jew? I guess what I am getting at is
the
> > subject of Jesus even considered in Synagod discussion and worship?<
>
> No, Jesus is not given any more consideration in Judaism than is
> Muhammad or the Angel Maroni. While I personally appreciate and
> can respond emotionally to a Son who laid down his life, suffered
> and went to Hell to save the world, Judaism simply has a very
> different
> "salvation plan." From the JEwish point of view, the "suffering
> servant" in Isaiah is the Jewish people who, in essence, suffer FROM
> the sins of the world.
That doesn't make sense to me. To suffer FROM the sins
of the world.
What is your thought of Pslams 2?
Kiss the Son, least he become angry...
Also if I recall correctly Israel is always
spoken of as a wife, or a daughter.
What do you think this verse means.
Jeremiah 31:22"how long wilt thou go about thou
backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath ctreated a new thing in the earth, a
woman shall compass a man."
I have tried to understand that verse and wonder what
you think a woman will compass a man is talking about?
>While the sacrifice of Jesus FREED the Gentiles
> from the burden of the Law, by faith, from the Jewish point of view,
> the Gentiles never had to carry that burden in the first place.
I agree with you. He said he would take a people
form among the nations who
are called by his name.
Gentiles have never needed to keep all of
the law.
I do find it difficult to believe that a Jew who
loves the Lord with all his heart
would be cast away in any sense of the word.
How could God cast anyone away who loves him?
Vicki
Susan Cohen
Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
This is not the point, & you know it.
Your disrespect for the Torah & your pretense that what Xians believe is
somehow moure authentic Judaism than what Jews say/do is the insult.
Susan
Yakir
> those of us who do follow Torah are following a living law thatis as
> vibrant now as when it was written. Such is the nature of Torah - it is
> eternal and self-renewing.
>
> Susan
>
In Hebrews 8 ....
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and
what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
So, from the Christian perspective, the Torah has been 'updated' with the
messages in the New Testament :-)
Jake
First of all, most Jews don't know much about their religion. But I'm
sure most Catholics don't know much about canonical law either. And
Jewish law, like English common law, is open to a variety of rulings
in
accordance to cirmcumstances.
But it is NOT true that one Jew in a family somehow makes the whole
family
Jewish. Maybe in the eyes of some onlookers but not according to
Jewish
law. However, the Law of Return in ISrael not only allows Jews to gain
permanent residency and become citizens, but it also allows their
non-Jewish mates and children to come along, as well as parents and
sometimes grandparents
(though not necessarily gain automatic citizenship.)
So there are many non-Jews in Israel who came along with a Jewish
family
member, say from Russia. But when a non-Jewish child from a non-Jewish
wife
of a Jewish man seeks to marry a Jewish girl, a rabbi cannot perform
it.
This causes some anger and resentment in Israel by children of
non-Jewish
mothers who, even though they served in the IDF and are good citizens,
cannot
marry a Jewish girl by the rabbinate. The non-Jew, even an Israeli
citizen, would have to convert to marry a Jewish girl. However, they
could go to
nearby Cyprus or Europe or someplace that performs CIVIL marriages,
and when they return their marriage will be recognized by the State of
Israel. But the rabbinate cannot marry a Jew to a non-Jew. There is no
civil marriage in
ISrael. The STATE does NOT perform marriages. It recognizes them
legally
but does not perform them. Marriages are performed by rabbis, qadis,
priests,
pastors, etc. Not by the state. Many couples in Israel live common
law. In
israel it is quite common.
Vicki
>
> I do find it difficult to believe that a Jew who
> loves the Lord with all his heart
> would be cast away in any sense of the word.
> How could God cast anyone away who loves him?
>
> Vicki
>
>
Don't take this the wrong way. I am speaking of
my own thoughts and how it contradicts
the main stream of chrisitan thought.
That believes that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus
will go to hell.
I cannot believe this even of, for instant Indians
who never heard of God or Jesus, yet walked
uprightly according to the law written on their hearts.
having creation also as a witness that
someone Holy made all of this.
And according to their understanding of
God walked in a way that pleased him
more than so many who name the name of Christ.
Such as Cochise and Chief Joesph(i will fight not
more for ever was his words), and those
whose names I haven't mentioned.
How many tried with a honest heart to live in
peace with the white man, they walked with a
honor and integreity that should shame
many who thought themselves godly.
And of course our government's actions toward them.
Setting them up, accusing them of crimes
that caused them to rise up to defend themselves.
Then painting them as savages, etc.
They were peacemakers.
Anyhow that is how I believe at this point in my life.
Vicki
>
Yakir
"Vicki" <vic...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1tDp9.26577$Xu2....@news2.central.cox.net...
>
> >
> > I do find it difficult to believe that a Jew who
> > loves the Lord with all his heart
> > would be cast away in any sense of the word.
> > How could God cast anyone away who loves him?
> >
> > Vicki
> >
Vicki - read the verses following the infamous John 3:16 ....
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God
did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the
world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the
name of God's one and only Son.[2] 19This is the verdict: Light has come
into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds
were evil.
and ...
1 John 2
22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a
man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
These imply that you must accept Jesus as Christ, else you are 'condemned',
you are in the 'darkness', you are a 'liar', and you are the 'antichrist'.
Judaism rejects Jesus outright and needs to see the 'Light'. Islam
considers Jesus the Messiah for the Jews. Christianity believes Jesus is
the Messiah for both Jew and Gentile. Many Christians believe we are the
new Israel, the 'chosen people', the rightful heirs of Abraham's covenant -
not the modern day practitioners of Judaism.
SOMLAW [Formerly MrStugatz]
> Can a Jew believe in and accept Jesus and still be a Jew?
>
> This is a theological question but I was just wondering. As far as
> Christians are concerned, a Jew, Muslim, or anyone can accept Jesus as his
> Savior, but would he still be a Jew?
>
> I read somewhere that a Jew can practice Judasim or not practice any
> religion but cannot be a member of another religion. But, Jesus was a
> Jew....then is Christianity considered an acceptable practice as far as the
> Jewish community and religious leaders are concerned?
>
> Hmmmm. Comments anyone?
Do you realize only the weak minded need fictional "saviors". What
difference does it make if someone prays in a temple to their fake
god, or in a church to their fake god. The fake gods don't care, they
don't exist!
SOMLAW [Formerly MrStugatz]
> Warning: no snips, for full context
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Sparkup wrote:
> > >
> > > > "David Goldman" <da...@erols.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:beq5qukd9a0spr8v3...@4ax.com...
> > > > > There is no confusion in this regard. A Jew can be a
> Christian,
> > > > > Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc., but as long as he is a bona
> fide Jew,
> > > > > he is bound by the Torah and its commandments, and like
> everyone else
> > > > > liable for his violations and prohibitions of the Torah, and
> for
> > > > > beliefs that contradict Judaism. There's no way he can get
> away from
> > > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > But can you accept Jesus as the messiah (central to being a
> christian) and
> > > > still be a jew?
> > >
> > > He will still be a Jew, but a sinning one. An apostate, a heretic.
> >
> > A sinning one?? Oh my..can you explain?
>
> Because he is not fulfilling the obligations incumbent upon him as a
> Jew, he is not worshipping as he should, etc.
>
> Susan
Worshipping what? When will you realize all people are doing is
praying because they all fear death?
Nobody knows what happens after death, anybody who tries to tell you
is full of it. They are basing their knowledge on their previous
teachers, who base it on their previous teachers, who base it on their
previous teachers, who base it on their previous teachers, all the way
back to the one teacher who said to himself "I don't know, I will make
up a fairy tale and see if these suckers believe it".
SOMLAW [Formerly MrStugatz]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> 2. His unity;
>
> 3. His spirituality;
>
> 4. His eternity;
>
> 5. God alone the object of worship;
>
> 6. Revelation through his prophets;
>
> 7. The preeminence of Moses among the Prophets;
>
> 8. God's law given on Mount Sinai;
>
> 9. The immutability of the Torah as God's Law;
>
> 10. God's foreknowledge of men's actions;
>
> 11. Retribution;
>
> 12. The coming of the Messiah;
>
> 13. Resurrection.
The 13 steps to blind ignorance!
Susan Cohen
"SOMLAW [Formerly MrStugatz]" wrote:
> The 13 steps to blind ignorance!
I see you took them.
Especially if you claim it about Maimonides.
Deborah Nyob
>God is a myth anyhow. Jesus as messiah has no meaning.
>God is simply a response by primitives to unknown
>natural forces.
So I'm a primitive. Biiiig surprise.
Deborah
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Deborah Nyob
<<As someone said: "one recognises a messiah on the mess he leaves
<<behind"
<<On the other hand, from my POV and as a secular non-Jew, I would
<<have liked him, this excentric and provocative reformer Yeshua that
<<fought the excessive pharisee and rabbinic Torah-chewing and
<<addiction to written laws, and wanted Judaism to be an alive social
<<happy happening that also cared for the forgotten or despised
<<people, not something as dead as the paper the Torah was written on.
<<This of course, was then and is also now a danger to anyone seeking
<<truth in ink and paper.
<Good thing no one's really doing that, and an even better thing that
<those of us who do follow Torah are following a living law thatis as
<vibrant now as when it was written. Such is the nature of Torah - it is
<eternal and self-renewing.
<Susan
Koyakh yasher.
Jan Pieter Verhey
>
>
> Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
..
> > I truly believe in what I wrote. How can Yeshua be provocative
to
> > Judaism?
>
> This is not the point, & you know it.
> Your disrespect for the Torah & your pretense that what Xians
believe is
> somehow moure authentic Judaism than what Jews say/do is the
insult.
I didn't say that, for the record. I tend to see Judaism, the Jewish
people (religion, culture, tradition etc) as a tree that grew and
grows over time. A tree with a lot of branches, diversities.
Especially today it is diversed. In the old days there were among
others Essenes, Pharisees, Sadducees, the oral tradition (where
Yeshua fell in), written tradition. Yeshua was in every way
connected to this this tree, a product of it, part of it.
Christianity is sort of a new tree, that grew out the exporting
activities of St Paul. Christians are tapping juices of this new
tree, and are part of it. So whatever these X-tians say can never be
"a more authentic Judaism", as Judaism is simply another tree. But
Yeshua himself I find an authentic Jew standing in the middle and
spirit of Judaism.
For both trees, Christianity and Judaism I have a normal respect.
But it is as with any person you know - some characteristics and
features you like and can love, even think are great , other aspects
you don't really like and find even questionable, sometimes even a
bit disgusting. When I say "Torah-chewing" I say that in the
"questionable" way. Torah-chewing / Bible-chewing / Koran-chewing /
UNresolution-chewing / .. I'm simply of the opinion that to
hypnotically repeat and reread any form of text is not healthy for
the mind. But again, anyone who loves such an activity, by all means
keep doing it!
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
Whore Nyob babbles away in yiddish.
Yakir
> <those of us who do follow Torah are following a living law thatis as
> <vibrant now as when it was written. Such is the nature of Torah - it is
> <eternal and self-renewing.
> <Susan
>
'Eternal and self-renewing'? If it was 'self-renewing', God would have
evolved Judaism to include Jesus. But, I believe Judaism was
'self-renewing' because it is a man-made evolution that intentionally
excludes Jesus. In essence, the way Judaism has evolved the teachings of
the Torah is purely man-made.
Vicki
"Yakir" <Yakir...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uPFp9.198$Vw6....@eagle.america.net...
>
> "Vicki" <vic...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1tDp9.26577$Xu2....@news2.central.cox.net...
> >
> > >
> > > I do find it difficult to believe that a Jew who
> > > loves the Lord with all his heart
> > > would be cast away in any sense of the word.
> > > How could God cast anyone away who loves him?
> > >
> > > Vicki
> > >
>
> Vicki - read the verses following the infamous John 3:16 ....
>
> John 3
> 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that
> whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God
> did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the
> world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
> does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in
the
> name of God's one and only Son.[2] 19This is the verdict: Light has come
> into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their
deeds
> were evil.
>
> and ...
>
> 1 John 2
> 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such
a
> man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
>
Romans11:25
For I would not, brethen, that ye should be ignorant
of this mystery, lest
ye should be wise in your own conceits,
that blindness in part i happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
> Judaism rejects Jesus outright and needs to see the 'Light'. Islam
> considers Jesus the Messiah for the Jews. Christianity believes Jesus is
> the Messiah for both Jew and Gentile. Many Christians believe we are the
> new Israel, the 'chosen people', the rightful heirs of Abraham's
covenant -
> not the modern day practitioners of Judaism.
>
I disagee. The church has not replaced Israel.
again in Romans11:28-29.
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies
for your sakes, but, as touching the election,
THEY ARE BELOVED for the fathers sake.
for the gifts and calling of God are
without repentence".
Vicki
>
>
>
Cindy S.
> <Good thing no one's really doing that, and an even better thing that
> > <those of us who do follow Torah are following a living law thatis as
> > <vibrant now as when it was written. Such is the nature of Torah - it is
> > <eternal and self-renewing.
> > <Susan
> >
>
> 'Eternal and self-renewing'? If it was 'self-renewing', God would have
> evolved Judaism to include Jesus. But, I believe Judaism was
> 'self-renewing' because it is a man-made evolution that intentionally
> excludes Jesus.
How can the Torah "intentionally exclude" something that was never in the
picture to begin with?
--Best regards,
Cindy S.
Susan Cohen
Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
> "Susan Cohen" <fla...@hers.com> wrote in message
> news:3DA6D84A...@hers.com...
> >
> >
> > Jan Pieter Verhey wrote:
> ..
> > > I truly believe in what I wrote. How can Yeshua be provocative
> to
> > > Judaism?
> >
> > This is not the point, & you know it.
> > Your disrespect for the Torah & your pretense that what Xians
> believe is
> > somehow moure authentic Judaism than what Jews say/do is the
> insult.
>
> I didn't say that, for the record. I tend to see Judaism, the Jewish
> people (religion, culture, tradition etc) as a tree that grew and
> grows over time. A tree with a lot of branches, diversities.
> Especially today it is diversed. In the old days there were among
> others Essenes, Pharisees, Sadducees, the oral tradition (where
> Yeshua fell in), written tradition. Yeshua was in every way
> connected to this this tree, a product of it, part of it.
Not in the slightest. Just take his disruption of Temple activities. Do
you have any idea what he was really doing with the infamous
"moneylenders" scene?
> Christianity is sort of a new tree, that grew out the exporting
> activities of St Paul. Christians are tapping juices of this new
> tree, and are part of it. So whatever these X-tians say can never be
> "a more authentic Judaism", as Judaism is simply another tree. But
> Yeshua himself I find an authentic Jew standing in the middle and
> spirit of Judaism.
That;s a shame, considering how antithecal the writings attributed to
him are to Judaism - when they weren't cribbing Judaism.
> For both trees, Christianity and Judaism I have a normal respect.
> But it is as with any person you know - some characteristics and
> features you like and can love, even think are great , other aspects
> you don't really like and find even questionable, sometimes even a
> bit disgusting. When I say "Torah-chewing" I say that in the
> "questionable" way. Torah-chewing / Bible-chewing / Koran-chewing /
> UNresolution-chewing / .. I'm simply of the opinion that to
> hypnotically repeat and reread any form of text is not healthy for
> the mind. But again, anyone who loves such an activity, by all means
> keep doing it!
And that's my point. Studying is not mindless repitition. Living by
Torah is not drone-like robotics.
Susan