Holy Kama Sutra: Hindu holy book.
Farhan Siddiqui
The Love Teachings of Holy Kama Sutra
================================
By Vatasyayana
Source: "The Love Teachings of Holy Kama Sutra"
------ (Translated by Indra Sinha)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lying Down Positions:
--------------------
Indrani draws up both her knees
until they nuzzle the curves of her breasts;
her feet find her lover's armpits.
Small girls love this posture,
but becoming a goddess takes a lot of practice.
She cups and lifts her buttocks with her palms,
spreads wide her thighs,
and digs in her heels besides her hips,
while you caress her breasts:
this is "Utphallaka" (The Flower in Bloom).
Grasping the ankles
of the round hipped woman, whose buttocks
are like two ripe gourds,
raise her beautiful thighs
and spread the thigh-joints widely.
Full of desire, saying sweet words,
approach her with your body stiff as a pole
and drive straight forward
to pierce her lotus and join your limbs:
experts call it "Madandhvaja" (The Flag of Cupid).
Catch hold of her two feet,
raising them till they press upon her breasts
and her legs form a rough circle.
Clasp her neck and make love to her:
this is "Ratisundara" (Aphrodite's Delight).
Lift the lady's feet until her soles
lie perfectly parallel,
one to each side of her slender throat,
cup her breasts and enjoy her:
this technique is "Uthkanta" (Throat-high).
Your lovely wife, lying on the bed,
grasps her own feet
and draws them up until they reach her hair;
you catch her breasts and make love:
this is "Vyomapada" (Sky-foot).
The round-thighed woman on the bed
grasps her ankles and raises high her lotus feet;
you strike her to the root, kissing
and slapping open-palmed between her breasts:
this is "Markata" (The Monkey).
She lies flat on her back,
you sit between her parted knees, raise them,
hook her feet over your thighs,
catch hold of her breasts, and enjoy her:
this is "Manmathpriya" (Dear to Cupid).
Lying-down Positions - Samputa Group:
------------------------------------
If your penis is too small for a woman,
the "Samputa" group of postures should be used:
"Samputa" (the Jewel Case),
"Pidita" (the Squeeze), "Veshtita (the Entwined)
and "Vadavaka" (the Mare's Trick).
In Samputa your legs lie along hers
caressing their whole length from toes to thighs.
Your lover may be below you,
or you may both lie on your sides,
in which case she should always be on your left.
In Pidita the lovers' thighs
are interlaced and squeeze each other in rhythm.
In Veshtita she crosses her thighs
or rolls each one inward,
thus greatly strengthening her yoni's (Vagina) grip.
When, like a mare cruelly gripping
a stallion, your lover
traps and milks your penis with her vagina,
it is "Vadavaka" (the Mare's Trick),
which can only be perfected with long practice.
When she uses it, a woman
should cease to kiss her lover
and simply hold the lock.
Courtesans are adept at Vadavaka,
and it's a speciality with ladies from Andhra(*).
*The South-Eastern state of India.
>From The Medieval Texts:
-----------------------
When lovers, with legs stretched rigid
and feet caressing feet,
make love according to their hearts' desire,
"tantra" scholars call it "Sampada" (Equal Feet)
and agree it is a way to ecstasy.
Stiff as a pole in the bed's center,
she lies making love,
cooing and warbling like a woodpigeon,
the jewel of her clitoris well-polished:
this is Mausala" (the Pestle).
When she lies on her back
with her two thighs pressed tightly together
and you make love to her,
keeping your thighs outside hers,
it is "Gramya" (the Rustic).
If, encircling and trapping
her thighs with yours,
you grip so hard that she cries out in pain,
it is "Ratipasha" (Love's Noose),
a device most charming to the ladies.
Her limbs, entwined in yours
like tendrils of fragrant jasmine creeper,
draw taut and slowly relax
in the gentle rhythm of linga (penis) and yoni (vagina) :
this is "Lataveshta" (the Clinging Creeper).
She draws her limbs together,
clasping her knees tightly to her breasts,
her yoni (vagina), like an opening bud,
offered up for pleasure:
this is known as "Mukula" (the Bud).
When she draws up her knees
and you clamp yours about her raised thighs,
trapping them in a tight knot
while riding saddle upon her buttocks
and kissing her, it is "Shankha" (the Couch).
-----------------------------------------------------
Sitting Positions:
-----------------
Seated, mouth to mouth,
arms against arms, thighs against thighs:
this is "Kaurma" The Tortoise).
If the lovers' thighs, still joined, are raised,
it is "Paravartita" (Turning).
If within the cave of her thighs
you sit rotating your hips like a black bee,
it is "Markata" (The Monkey).
And if, in this pose, you turn away from her,
it is "Marditaka" (Crushing Spices).
She sits with raised thighs,
her feet placed either side of your waist;
"linga" (penis) enters "yoni" (vagina);
you rain hard blows upon her body:
this is "Kshudgaga" (Striking).
When your wife sits
with both knees drawn tight to her body
and you mirror this posture,
it is known to experts in the art of love
as "Yugmapada" (The Foot Yoke).
Seated erect, the lovely girl
folds one leg to her body
and stretches the other along the bed,
while you mirror her actions:
this is "Yugmapada" (The Feet Yoke).
If, with left leg extended,
she encircles your waist with her right leg,
laying its ankle across her left thigh,
and you do the same,
it is "Svastika" (The Swastika)*.
*An ancient good-luck talisman based on the symbolism of a
cross whirling sun-wise. The Nazis used it the wrong way
round, whirling widdershins, and the Indian pundits
always said this was sacrilegious and would doom them.
Sitting face to face in bed,
her breasts pressed tight against your chest,
let each of you lock heels
behind the other's waist,
and lean back clasping one another's wrists.
Now, set the swing gently in motion,
your beloved, in pretended fear,
clinging to your body with her flawless limbs,
cooing and moaning with pleasure:
this is "Dolita" (The Swing).
If, seated face to face,
your toes caress the lovely woman's nipples,
her feet press your chest
and you make love holding each other's hands
it is "Kaurma" (The Tortoise).
Seated, the lady raises
one foot to point vertically over her head
and steadies it with her hands,
offering up her "yoni" for lovemaking:
this is "Mayura" (the Peacock).
If, sitting facing her,
you grasp her ankles and fasten them like a chain
behind your neck, and she
grips her toes as you make love,
it is the delightful "Padma" (the Lotus).
Sitting erect, grip your lover's waist
and pull her on to you,
your loins continuously leaping together
with a sound like the flapping of elephants' ears:
this is "Kirtibandha" (the Knot of Fame).
Kneeling between her thighs,
tickle her breasts and under her arms,
call her 'my lovely darling'
and print deep nailmarks around her nipples:
thus "Jaya" (Victory) is expounded.
Rear-Entry Positions:
--------------------
She bends well forward and grips
the bedstead, her buttocks raised high;
cup your hands to serpents' hoods
and squeeze her jar-shaped (sic) breasts together:
this is "Dhenuka" (the Milch Cow).
If you mount her like a dog,
gripping her waist,
and she twists round to gaze into your face,
experts in the art of love say
it is "Svanaka" (the Dog).
If the lady, eager for love,
goes on all fours, humping her back like a doe,
and you enjoy her from behind,
rutting as though you'd lost all human nature,
it is "Hirana" (the Deer).
When, with lotus-feet
set well-apart on the ground, she bends,
placing a hand upon each thigh,
and you take her from the rear,
it is "Gardabha" (the Ass).
If she lies on her stomach
and you seize her ankles in one hand,
lift them high and make love,
tilting her chin back with your other hand,
it is "Marjara" (the Cat).
She lies on her front,
grasping her ankles in her own hands
and pulling them up behind her:
this difficult posture is known to experts
as "Mallaka" (the Wrestler).
When your mistress (sic) lays
breasts, arms and forehead to the carpet,
raising her buttocks high,
and you guide your penis into her yoni (vagina),
it is "Aibha" (the Elephant).
You lift her ankles high;
she draws up
and extends her legs as though she were
crawling through the air:
this is "Hastika" (the Elephant).
She stands on palms and feet;
you stand behind her
and lift one of her feet to your shoulder,
enjoying the lovely girl:
this is "Traivikrama" (the Stride).
Seize her feet and lift them high
(like a wheel barrow),
drive your penis into her yoni (vagina)
and pleasure her with vigorous strokes:
this is "Kulisha" (the Thunderbolt).
You kneel, as in archery,
take her on your lap
and bend her forward till her breasts
are pressed to her thighs:
this is "Ekabandha" (One Knot).
Lying on her side, facing away,
the fawn-eyed girl
offers you her buttocks
and your penis penetrates the house of love:
this is "Nagabandha" (the Elephant).
Standing Positions:
------------------
And now for the love postures
with which sculptors adorn our temple walls.
When a couple make love standing,
or leaning against a wall or a pillar,
it is called "Sthita" (Steadied).
When the woman sits in her lover's
cradled hands, her arms around his neck,
thighs gripping his waist,
her feet pushing back and forth against a wall,
it is "Avalambitaka" (Suspended).
When, catching and crushing your lover
in the cage of your arms,
you force her knees apart with yours
and sink slowly into her,
it is "Dadhyayataka" (Churning Curds).
When she leans against a wall,
planting her feet as widely apart as possible,
and you enter the cave
between her thighs, eager for lovemaking,
it is "Sammukha" (Face-to-face).
If, as you lean against the wall,
your lady twines her thighs around yours,
locks her feet to your knees,
and clasps your neck, making love
very passionately, it is "Dola" (the Swing).
When your lover draws up one leg,
allowing the heel
to nestle just behind your knee,
and you make love, embracing her forcefully,
it is "Traivikrama" (the Stride).
If you catch one of her knees
firmly in your hand
and stand making love with her
while her hands explore and caress your body,
it is "Tripadam" (the Tripod).
If she raises one leg
and you catch hold of her little foot,
caressing her breasts
and telling her how much you love her,
it is "Ekapada" (One Foot).
Her foot pressed to your heart,
your arms encircling and supporting her,
lean back against the wall
and enjoy the lovely girl:
this is "Veshta" (the Encircling).
She stands against the wall,
lotus-hands on hips,
long, lovely fingers reaching to her navel.
Cup her foot in your palm
and let your free hand caress your angel's limbs.
Put your arm around her neck
and enjoy her as she leans there at her ease.
Vatsyayana (the author) ans others
who knew the art of love in its great days
called this posture "Tala" (the Palm).
If you lean back to a wall
and your lover, clinging to your neck,
places both her feet
in your palms and thus makes love,
this is "Dvitala" (Two Palms).
If you lift your lover
by passing your elbows under her knees
and gripping her buttocks
while she hangs fearfully from your neck,
it is "Janukurpara" (the Knee Elbow).
Your wife grips your neck
and locks her legs around your waist:
this is "Kirti" (Fame) - a posture
not described in "Kama Sutra" or "Ratirahasya".
Never try it with heavy girls.
----------------
Oral Pleasures -- Fellatio Techniques:
-------------------------------------
When your lover catches your penis
in her hand and, shaping
her lips to an 'O', lays them lightly to its tip,
moving her head in tiny circles,
this first step is called "Nimitta" (Touching).
Next, grasping its head in her hand,
she clamps her lips tightly about the shaft,
first on one side then the other,
taking great care that her teeth don't hurt you:
this is "Parshvatoddashta" (Biting at the Sides).
Now she takes the head of your penis
gently between her lips,
by turns pressing, kissing it tenderly
and pulling at its soft skin:
this is "Bahiha-samdansha" (the Outer Pincers).
If next she allows the head to slide
completely into her mouth
and presses the shaft firmly between her lips,
holding a moment before pulling away,
it is "Antaha-samdansha" (the Inner Pincers).
When, taking your penis in her hand
and making her lips very round,
she presses fierce kisses along its whole length,
sucking as she would at your lower lip,
it is called "Chumbitaka" (Kissing).
If, while kissing, she lets her tongue
flick all over your penis
and then, pointing it, strikes repeatedly
at the sensitive glans-tip,
it becomes "Parimrshtaka" (Striking at the Tip).
And now, fired by passion, she takes
your penis deep into her mouth,
pulling upon it and sucking as vigorously
as though she were stripping clean a mango-stone:
this is "Amrachushita" (Sucking a Mango).
When she senses that your orgasm
is imminent she swallows up the whole penis,
sucking and working upon it
with lips and tongue until you spend:
this is "Sangara" (Swallowed Whole).
Oral Pleasures -- Cunnilingus Techniques:
----------------------------------------
With delicate fingertips,
pinch the arched lips of her house of love
very very slowly together,
and kiss them as though you kissed her lower lip:
this is "Adhara-sphuritam" (the Quivering Kiss).
Now spread, indeed cleave asunder,
that archway with your nose and let your tongue
gently probe her "yoni" (vagina),
with your nose, lips and chin slowly circling:
it becomes "Jihva-bhramanaka" (the Circling Tongue).
Let your tongue rest for a moment
in the archway to the flower-bowed Lord's temple
before entering to worship vigorously,
causing her seed to flow:
this is "Jihva-mardita" (the Tongue Massage).
Next, fasten your lips to hers
and take deep kisses
from this lovely one, your beloved,
nibbling at her and sucking hard at her clitoris:
this is called "Chushita" (Sucked).
Cup, lift her young buttocks,
let your tongue-tip probe her navel, slither down
to rotate skilfully in the archway
of the love-god's dwelling and lap her love-water:
this is "Uchchushita" (Sucked Up).
Stirring the root of her thighs,
which her own hands
are gripping and holding widely apart,
your fluted tongue drinks at her sacred spring:
this is "Kshobhaka" (Stirring).
Place your darling on a couch,
set her feet to your shoulders, clasp her waist,
suck hard and let your tongue stir
her overflowing love-temple:
this is called "Bahuchushita" (Sucked Hard).
If the pair of you lie side by side,
facing opposite ways,
and kiss each other's secret parts
using the fifteen techniques described above,
it is known as "Kakila" (the Crow).
Role Reversal:
-------------
During lovemaking, ten types of blows
may be struck with the penis,
but of these only "Upasripta" (Natural),
which is instinctive even to untutored cowherds,
results in full clitoral stimulation.
It is a gentle forward stroke
which may be varied for depth and speed,
allowing a subtlety, rhythm
and spontaneity which
the other nine each lack to some degree.
If you grasp your penis and move it
in circles inside her yoni (vagina),
it is "Manthana" (Churning).
When you strike sharply down into the yoni (vagina),
it is "Hula" (the Double-edged Knife).
If, when her hips are raised by a pillow,
you strike a rising blow,
it is "Avamardana" (Rubbing).
If you hold your penis pressed breathlessly
to her womb it is "Piditaka" (Pressing).
If you withdraw completely
and then strike her violently to the womb,
it is "Nirghata" (the Buffet).
Continuous pressure on one side of her yoni (vagina)
is "Varahaghata" (the Boar's Blow).
If you thrust wildly in every direction,
like a bull tossing its horns,
it is "Vrishaghata" (the Bull's Blow).
Quivering in her yoni (vagina) is "Chatakavilasa" (Sparrow Sport),
which usually heralds orgasm.
The involuntary shuddering of orgasm
is called "Samputa" (the Jewel Case).
But no two women make love quite the same way,
so orchestrate your rhythms
to the moods and colors of each lover's "raga" (emotions).
If long lovemaking exhausts you
before your lover has reached her orgasm,
you should allow her
to roll you over your back
and sit astride you, taking initiative.
If the posture gives her deep pleasure,
or you enjoy its novelty,
she may transpose into it as a matter of course,
taking great care, however,
not to expel the linga (penis) from the temple of love.
Consider: she climbs upon you,
the flowers dropping from her tousled hair,
her giggles turning to gasps;
every time she bends to kiss your lips
her nipples pierce your chest.
As her hips begin to churn,
her head, flung back, bobs ever faster;
she scratches, pummels you with small fists,
fastens her teeth in your neck,
doing unto you what you've often done unto her.
When she takes the man's role,
your lady has the choice
of three famous lovemaking techniques:
"Samdamsha (the Tongs),
"Bhramara" (the Bee) and "Prenkholita" (the Swing).
If she uses the Mare's Trick,
gripping your penis with her yoni (vagina)'s vice,
squeezing and stroking it,
holding it inside her for a hundred heart-beats,
it is known as "Samdamsha" (the Tongs).
If, drawing up her feet,
she revolves her hips so that your penis
circles deep within her yoni (vagina),
you arching your body to help her,
it is "Bhramara" (the Bee).
If she now swings her hips
in wide circles and makes figures-of-eight,
swaying upon your body
as though she were riding on a seesaw,
it is "Prenkholita" (the Swing).
When her passion has ebbed,
she should rest, bending forward to lay
her forehead upon yours
without disturbing your yoked bodies:
it won't be long before desire stirs again.
Catching your penis, the lady
with dark eyes like upturned lotus petals
guides it into her yoni (vagina),
clings to you and shakes her buttocks:
this is "Charunarikshita" (Lovely Lady in Control).
Enthroned on your penis,
she places both hands on the bed
and makes love, while you
press your two hands to her thudding heart:
this is "Lilasana" (Seat of Sport).
She sits upright upon you,
her head thrown back like a rearing mare,
bringing her feet together
on the bed to one side of your body:
this is "Hansabandha" (the Swan).
The young woman has one foot
on your heart and the other on the bed.
Bold, saucy women adore this posture,
which is known to the world
as "Upavitika" (the Sacred thread).
If, with one of her feet
clasped in your hand
and the second placed upon your shoulder,
your young lady enjoys you,
it is "Viparitaka" (Reversed).
If your lover, seated above you
with feet lotus-crossed
and her body held erect and still
makes love to you,
it is known as "Yugmapada" (the Foot Yoke).
If she strides you,
facing your feet,
brings both her feet up to your thighs,
and works her hips frantically,
it is known as "Hansa-lila" (Swan Sport).
Your lover places one foot
on your ankle, lodges
her other foot just above your knee,
and rides you, swinging and rotating her hips:
this is "Garuda" (Garuda).
If you lie flat on your back
with legs stretched out
and your lover sits astride you, facing away
and grasping your feet,
it is called "Virsha" (the Bull).
Clasping each other's hands,
you lie sprawled like two starfish making love,
her breasts stabbing your chest,
her thighs stretched out along yours:
this is "Devabandha" (the Coitus of the Gods).
Lying upon you, your beloved
moves round like a wheel,
pressing hands one after the other on the bed,
kissing your body as she circles:
experts call this "Chakrabandha" (the Wheel).
If, by means of some contraption,
your lover suspends herself above you,
places your linga (penis) in her yoni (vagina)
and pulleys herself up and down upon it,
it is "Utkalita" (the Orissan).**
**I must admit that this is kind of far fetched. However,
there is an illustration on the next page depicting this
position and showing two women pulling the woman up!!
Love Potions and Sex Aids
-------------------------
To Enslave a Lover:
------------------
Anoint your penis, before lovemaking,
with honey into which
you have powered black pepper,
long pepper and "datura" (the green thorn apple) -
it will utterly devastate your lady.
Leaves caught as they fall from trees
and powdered with peacock-bone
and fragments of a corpse's winding-sheet
will, when dusted lightly
on the penis, bewitch any woman living.
If you crush milky chunks of cactus
with sulphur and realgar,
dry the mixture seven times, powder it
and apply it to your penis,
you'll satisfy the most demanding lover.
And if, to these powerful ingredients,
you add a monkey's turd,
grind them together and sprinkle the powder
on your unsuspecting lover's head,
she will be your devoted slave for life.
To Increase Potency:
-------------------
Honey-sweetened milk in which
the testicles of a ram
or a goat have been simmered
has the effect, when drunk,
of making a man as powerful as a bull.
Pumkin seeds ground with almonds
and sugarcane root,
or with cowhage root and strips of bamboo,
and stirred into honeyed milk,
have the same arousing effect.
The sages say that wheat-flour cakes
baked with honey and sugar
and sprinkled with the powdered seeds
of pumpkin and cowhage
give one strength for a thousand women.
The yolk of a single sparrow's egg
stirred into rice pudding
that has been thickened with cream,
wild-honey and "ghee" (clarified butter)
has the same invigorating effect.
Enlarging the Penis or "Yoni" (Vagina):
--------------------------------------
First rub your penis with wasp stings
and massage it with sweet oil.
When it swells, let it dangle for ten nights
through a hole in your bed,
going to sleep each night on your stomach.
After this period use a cool ointment
to remove the pain and swelling.
By this method men ... of insatiable
sexual appetite, manage to keep
their penises enlarged throughout their lives.
By applying an ointment made from
crushed barleria leaves
to her "yoni", the elephant (large) woman
can spend at least one night
discovering the delights of being a doe ("small" woman).
Likewise the doe can use honey
mixed with powdered roots
of lotus, madder, "sal" (tree of aromatic gum),
the blue lotus and the mongoose plant
to accomodate a stallion for one night.
To Cope With Impotence:
----------------------
A man who climaxes too swiftly
should arouse his lady
by caressing her clitoris with his fingers
and flooding the well
of her yoni (vagina) before he enters her.
If, during lovemaking, the erection
cannot be sustained because
the man is old, or simply exhausted
he should use the delicate
oral techniques given in an earlier chapter.
The man who is utterly unable
to achieve an erection
should pleasure his wife/lover with a phallus (penis)
crafted from materials like
gold, silver, copper, iron (!!), ivory or horn.
The artificial phallus (penis) should be shaped
to your natural proportions.
It will be more arousing for the lady
if the outside is studded
with a profusion of large, smooth nodules.
Durga P. Choudhury
Farhan Siddiqui <sidd...@digiplace.com> wrote in article
<50sq94$1...@news.pathcom.com>...
>
>
> The Love Teachings of Holy Kama Sutra
> ================================
>
> By Vatasyayana
"Allah created this universe out of CONGELED BLOOD" --The holy Quran
Yes, blood is the only word they understand; and if you want to explain
something to to
someone, you gotta talk their language. The United States is explaining
some stuff
to Iraq. Shouldn't the rest of the world chip in to do some more
explaining? After all,
should we let Mr. Netanyahu take all the glory for saving humans from
extinction?
Durga P. Choudhury
---An eye for an eye may save the other eye.
Sanjay Veerabathina (CS)
On 13 Sep 1996, Durga P. Choudhury wrote:
>
>
> Farhan Siddiqui <sidd...@digiplace.com> wrote in article
> <50sq94$1...@news.pathcom.com>...
> >
> >
> > The Love Teachings of Holy Kama Sutra
> > ================================
> >
> > By Vatasyayana
> "Allah created this universe out of CONGELED BLOOD" --The holy Quran
>
> Yes, blood is the only word they understand; and if you want to explain
> something to to
> someone, you gotta talk their language. The United States is explaining
> some stuff
> to Iraq. Shouldn't the rest of the world chip in to do some more
> explaining? After all,
> should we let Mr. Netanyahu take all the glory for saving humans from
> extinction?
>
> Durga P. Choudhury
>
> ---An eye for an eye may save the other eye.
Farhan doesn't seem to have any sense organs otherwise he won't call
kamusutra a holy book. So aiming at his eyes is useless. Probably we
need to chop off the remaining part of his di**.
Sanjay
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.960916153953.427A-100000@aho>,
veer...@csee.usf.edu says...
>
>On 13 Sep 1996, Durga P. Choudhury wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Farhan Siddiqui <sidd...@digiplace.com> wrote in article
>> <50sq94$1...@news.pathcom.com>...
>> >
>> >
>> > ================================
>> >
>> > By Vatasyayana
>>
>> Yes, blood is the only word they understand; and if you want to
explain
>> something to to
>> someone, you gotta talk their language. The United States is
explaining
>> some stuff
>> to Iraq. Shouldn't the rest of the world chip in to do some more
>> explaining? After all,
>> should we let Mr. Netanyahu take all the glory for saving humans from
>> extinction?
>>
>> Durga P. Choudhury
>>
>> ---An eye for an eye may save the other eye.
>
>Farhan doesn't seem to have any sense organs otherwise he won't call
>kamusutra a holy book. So aiming at his eyes is useless. Probably we
>need to chop off the remaining part of his di**.
>Sanjay
If Kamasutra were not holy shastras, why were they written
by Brahmins - supposedly priests connecting the faithful
with their gods. Also, Brahmin temples in the South
are full of stones statues engaged in sexual acts.
So your claim that they were not "holy" is false.
Sanjay Veerabathina (CS)
On 23 Sep 1996, Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
> In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.960916153953.427A-100000@aho>,
> veer...@csee.usf.edu says...
> >
> >On 13 Sep 1996, Durga P. Choudhury wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Farhan Siddiqui <sidd...@digiplace.com> wrote in article
> >> <50sq94$1...@news.pathcom.com>...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The Love Teachings of Holy Kama Sutra
> >> > ================================
> >> >
> >> > By Vatasyayana
> >> "Allah created this universe out of CONGELED BLOOD" --The holy Quran
> >>
> >> Yes, blood is the only word they understand; and if you want to
> explain
> >> something to to
> >> someone, you gotta talk their language. The United States is
> explaining
> >> some stuff
> >> to Iraq. Shouldn't the rest of the world chip in to do some more
> >> explaining? After all,
> >> should we let Mr. Netanyahu take all the glory for saving humans from
> >> extinction?
> >>
> >> Durga P. Choudhury
> >>
> >> ---An eye for an eye may save the other eye.
> >
> >Farhan doesn't seem to have any sense organs otherwise he won't call
> >kamusutra a holy book. So aiming at his eyes is useless. Probably we
> >need to chop off the remaining part of his di**.
> >Sanjay
>
> If Kamasutra were not holy shastras, why were they written
> by Brahmins - supposedly priests connecting the faithful
> with their gods. Also, Brahmin temples in the South
> are full of stones statues engaged in sexual acts.
> So your claim that they were not "holy" is false.
Love making is the art of Union for the purpose of Gharbha Dharana (
offering to the womb). Kamasutra is a book of science - The science of
love making. There is a rhythm and motion , an emotion - speaking and
beholding the emotion. Hinduism never considered women as objects of
entertianment . Wife is not for enjoyment of to satisfy your carnal
desires. That is why she is called Dharma patni and not Kama patni.
( Dharma means righteous way of life , Kama means carnality , patni means
wife ) . A wife helps the husband lead a righteous way of life.
According to Hinduism , carnality is an animal passion if sex is indulged
in without understanding its actual purpose ( procreation). Physical
union is necessary for procreation , but when this union takes place man
should not act like an animal , but the spirit should revel in ecstasy.
Kamasutra teaches you how to do this because if your mind becomes a slave
of your carnal desires it becomes difficult for spiritual advancement
which should be the goal of every human beind irrespective of his
religion.
It was not the intention of the author of kamasutra to teach you sex: it
is inborn with you. The purpose was to use that to achieve the divine.
This is what the book is about , not to complicate your fantasies but to
implicate your pesonality to understand the divine. In this sense it is
holy but not in the sense Farhan understood it. The act of union is
carried out at an auspicious time when the body , mind and spirit sink
their differences and capture themselves in one unity. When you consummate
at that time , there is peace , no animal instincts , no replusion but
only ecstasy beyond expression. And the chances are that you will gebet a
child who will be useful to the society not the one of the kind of Farhan
which revel on insulting people of other religions.
And how many Hindu temples have you visited ? Do visit some of them before
you speak about them. And FYI there are not temple called " Brahmin
temples" .
Sanjay
Raghu Seshadri
Haven't been following this thread,
but this caught my eye ..
Mr Gurupdesh Singh writes -
: If Kamasutra were not holy shastras, why were they written
: by Brahmins - supposedly priests connecting the faithful
: with their gods.
Because the Brahmins wrote a lot
of secular literature as well -
mathematics, for eg, astronomy,
prosody, dramatic theory etc etc.
So authorship by Brahmins does
not make a book holy, unless you
think math books are holy ..
: Also, Brahmin temples in the South
: are full of stones statues engaged in sexual acts.
There is no such thing as a Brahmin
temple.
: So your claim that they were not "holy" is false.
It is true that the hindus did not
think sex is dirty or that there is
a big divide between sex and holiness.
But your idea that everything portrayed
on temple walls is holy is mistaken.
For example, elephants and dancing
women and kings on hunt are also carved on
temple walls. But hindus don't consider
elephants or dancing women or hunting kings
holy.
RS
Dr. Jai Maharaj
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In the article <526c5h$m...@hpindda.cup.hp.com>,
of 23 Sep 1996 15:59:45 UTC,
sesh...@cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
> Haven't been following this thread, but this caught
> my eye .. Mr Gurupdesh Singh writes -
>> If Kamasutra were not holy shastras, why were they
>> written by Brahmins - supposedly priests connecting
>> the faithful with their gods.
>
> Because the Brahmins wrote a lot of secular
> literature as well - mathematics, for eg, astronomy,
> prosody, dramatic theory etc etc. So authorship by
> Brahmins does not make a book holy, unless you think
> math books are holy .. . . .
> - sesh...@cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri)
What is regarded with reverence, or associated with God
or religion, is holy -- by definition.
Jai Maharaj <j...@eskimo.com> Jyotishi
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% *-=Om Shanti=-* %:%:%
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Raj Ganguli
*
> Can you provide a name of one math
> book written by a Brahmin from ancient
> times - pre-18th century. Their expertise
> appears to be mostly in writting fantastical
> fiction - usually written with the agenda
> of furthering their caste-based political
> interests.
>
Take your Lalloo Prasad politics elsewhere. Ever heard of
AryaBhatta??You would have, if you were less busy trying to ignore
reality and history.
Its amazing how some people can reduce every discussion to caste based
politics.
> Pro-Brahmin historians tend to reject and
> erase real objective history (in which they
> played a rather humble role) and replace
> it with their own written fantasies.
>
Objective?? Looks who's talking.....
Rajive Ganguli
http://www.engr.uky.edu/~rganguli/personal.html
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <526c5h$m...@hpindda.cup.hp.com>,
sesh...@cup.hp.com (Raghu Seshadri) wrote:
>Haven't been following this thread,
>but this caught my eye ..
>
>Mr Gurupdesh Singh writes -
>
>: If Kamasutra were not holy shastras, why were they written
>: by Brahmins - supposedly priests connecting the faithful
>: with their gods.
>
>Because the Brahmins wrote a lot
>of secular literature as well -
>mathematics, for eg, astronomy,
>prosody, dramatic theory etc etc.
>So authorship by Brahmins does
>not make a book holy, unless you
>think math books are holy ..
Can you provide a name of one math
book written by a Brahmin from ancient
times - pre-18th century. Their expertise
appears to be mostly in writting fantastical
fiction - usually written with the agenda
of furthering their caste-based political
interests.
Are you making these claims based on
references to "udhan khatolas"
(helicopters) etc. made in fantastical tales
and mythologies found in Brahmin literature.
These are tales in which Devtas and animals
decide the fate of humans and have no
connection to reality or history - but
they make interesting stories.
Pro-Brahmin historians tend to reject and
erase real objective history (in which they
played a rather humble role) and replace
it with their own written fantasies.
>
>: Also, Brahmin temples in the South
>: are full of stones statues engaged in sexual acts.
>
>There is no such thing as a Brahmin
>temple.
***************************************
The Brahmins have control over their
temples and traditionally only OC Hindus
(8% of current Hindu population dubbed
as "Hindu") were barred from entering
these temples lest they "pollute"
the orthodox castes.
Arun Gupta
Gurupdesh Singh <gs...@cornell.edu> wrote:
>Can you provide a name of one math
>book written by a Brahmin from ancient
>times - pre-18th century. Their expertise
>appears to be mostly in writting fantastical
>fiction - usually written with the agenda
>of furthering their caste-based political
>interests.
Read Al Biruni's (11th century) book on India.
-arun gupta
Akhil Sahai
Mr Gurupdesh Singh writes -
>
> : If Kamasutra were not holy shastras, why were they written
> : by Brahmins - supposedly priests connecting the faithful
For your kind Information Kamasutra was not written by "Brahmins-supposedly priests"
It was written by Vatsayana who was far from a priest. He lived with prostitutes
to study the various postures he describes. So the above shows your limited knowledge
and nothing else.
Pankaj Kakkar
Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
> Can you provide a name of one math
> book written by a Brahmin from ancient
> times - pre-18th century. Their expertise
> appears to be mostly in writting fantastical
> fiction - usually written with the agenda
> of furthering their caste-based political
> interests.
Dear Gurupdesh ji, without any offence meant, I think you should really
write a letter to the University of Rourkee, where reasearch is being
done on Vedic Mathematics.
But we need not go that far back into history - perhaps you would know
that Aryabhatta, a Brahmin, was the inventor of zero, and the so called
"Hindu-arabic" system of numerals - and he also wrote several
mathematical treatises on this and other subjects of Mathematics.
Among other mathematicians, you might also include the name of
Bhaskaracharya, whose book "Leelavati" is a famous example of the
historical mathematical expertise of the ancient Indians.
It is a pity to note that though most history books in India do mention
the "Golden age" of India, the period in history when the Gupta dynasty
ruled over most of the subcontinent, they never go any further, leaving
people in the dark about the best period of Indian Arts and sciences,
pre-15th century.
Of course, post 15th century, the sciences suffered, but the arts gained
a lot.
All this IMHO, and again, without any offence, please do try and read
more on this subject.
Pankaj.
--
_____________________________________________________________________
/ \
| Pankaj Kakkar |
| URL : http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~pankaj |
| |
| Addresses : |
| |
| Office: Home: |
| PhD Student 2211 Walnut St |
| CIS Dept., Apt No 7 |
| School of Engineering and Applied Sciences Philadelphia |
| University of Pennsylvania, PA 19104 PA 19103 |
| USA. USA |
\____________________________________________________________________/
John Mitchell
Pankaj Kakkar wrote:
>
> Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
> > Can you provide a name of one math
> > book written by a Brahmin from ancient
> > times - pre-18th century. Their expertise
> > appears to be mostly in writting fantastical
> > fiction - usually written with the agenda
> > of furthering their caste-based political
> > interests.
>
> Dear Gurupdesh ji, without any offence meant, I think you should really
> write a letter to the University of Rourkee, where reasearch is being
> done on Vedic Mathematics.
>
> But we need not go that far back into history - perhaps you would know
> that Aryabhatta, a Brahmin, was the inventor of zero, and the so called
> "Hindu-arabic" system of numerals - and he also wrote several
> mathematical treatises on this and other subjects of Mathematics.
>
> Among other mathematicians, you might also include the name of
> Bhaskaracharya, whose book "Leelavati" is a famous example of the
> historical mathematical expertise of the ancient Indians.
See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk:80/~history/BiogIndex.html
Indian mathematicians are mentioned here.
>
> It is a pity to note that though most history books in India do mention
> the "Golden age" of India, the period in history when the Gupta dynasty
> ruled over most of the subcontinent, they never go any further, leaving
> people in the dark about the best period of Indian Arts and sciences,
> pre-15th century.
A.L. Basham's "The Wonder that was India" is about Indian history from
antiquity to the rule of the Mughals.
Raghu Seshadri
Mr Gurupdesh Singh writes -
: >Because the Brahmins wrote a lot
: >of secular literature as well -
: >mathematics, for eg, astronomy,
: >prosody, dramatic theory etc etc.
: >So authorship by Brahmins does
: >not make a book holy, unless you
: >think math books are holy ..
: Can you provide a name of one math
: book written by a Brahmin from ancient
: times - pre-18th century.
Ha, ha, Mr Singh, yes, I can.
There is the famous "Lilavatiyam"
co-authored by the great Brahmin mathematician
Bhaskara and his precocious daughter
Lilavati; I remember a neat way of
finding cube roots which was a delight.
( For the other normal non-casteist sane
readers - I added Brahmin to the description
of Bhaskara only because Brahmin-obsessed
Gurupdesh wanted to know. It hardly matters
otherwise. )
I am surprised that a man so obsessed
with Brahmins did not know this.
( Lot of rude falsehoods deleted )
: >There is no such thing as a Brahmin
: >temple.
: The Brahmins have control over their
: temples and traditionally only OC Hindus
: (8% of current Hindu population dubbed
: as "Hindu") were barred from entering
: these temples lest they "pollute"
: the orthodox castes.
Welcome to the modern times, Mr Singh,
you seem stuck in the ancient era.
There is no temple in the south where
any hindu is barred entry.
Looks like you know neither ancient
history ( Lilavatiyam ) nor what is
happening today. That would explain
a lot of the fiction that you write.
And unlike the fiction of the old
Brahmins, it is not even entertaining.
: >But your idea that everything portrayed
: >on temple walls is holy is mistaken.
: >For example, elephants and dancing
: >women and kings on hunt are also carved on
: >temple walls. But hindus don't consider
: >elephants or dancing women or hunting kings
: >holy.
To add to this point - many umbrellas
are carved in many temple walls. So are
you going to claim that umbrellas are
holy ?
RS
Ranjit Mathews
surely you jest, comrade gurupdesh. here's a list:
the sulvasutras & sathapatha brahmana (geometry, trigonometry)
the gantanuyoga (system of calculation)
umaswati (started math school at pataliputra) geometry, infinity, combinatorics
surya siddhanta (table of sines, astronomy)
brahma sputa siddhanta (astronomy, geometric progressions, closed form solns, trig)
bhaskara's siddhantha siromani (arithmetic-lilavati, algebra-bijanganita,
astronomy-goladhyaya and gruhaganita)
arya bhatta (square & cube roots, linear equations, arith. sequences, trig., etc)
Varahamihira (astronomy, sines, cosines, etc.)
Khandakhadyaya (astronomy, 2nd order differences, algebra)
ganita sara sangraha (4th degree eqns, nCr, nPr, fractions, indeterminate eqns, etc)
narayana pandit (arithmetic & algebra)
sridhara (roots, fractions, arith & geom series)
other works by govindaswami, pruthudakaswami, manjula, prashastidhara, halayudha,
sripathi, hemachandra suri, cangadeva, parameswara, sankara variar, jyesthadeva,
achyta pisarati, putumana somayaji, jaganath pandit, sankara varman, madhava,
nilakanta somayaji
Gurupdesh SIngh
In article <324B62...@bbn.com>, sb...@bbn.com says...
>surely you jest, comrade gurupdesh. here's a list:
>the sulvasutras & sathapatha brahmana (geometry, trigonometry)
**************************************************************
Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
roots were invented by Brahmins?
World history ascribes the origins of geometry and trigonometry
to the ancient Greeks.
Astrology which is used by Brahmins is a Greek import.
Algebra was invested by the Arabs - thats why it is
called Algebra.
Now to be fair, I will grant you that some Indian
invented zero.
Most of the advanced mathematics: calculus, Eucludian spaces,
topology, differential algebra, probabability theory, etc
are traced to Newton, Gauss, Fermat, Descartes, etc and
do not precede the 16th century. To my knowledge, none
of them claimed to be Brahmins!
Also, the oldest existing Brahmanical manuscripts do not
predate the 11-13 century A.D. I am sure if these
Brahmin books with the names given below exist
and pertain to these advanced mathematical subjects
discovered after the 16th century, the history of mathematics
would reflect these "contribution". Since so many
Indian math professors teach in western schools,
these "facts of history" should have not trouble
being accepted - if they are in fact "true" and not
myths like the "history in the Ramayana and Mahabharta"
- other better known Brahmanical works!
(Does one of you want to float a conspiracy theory
of why old Brahmins do not get the credit for
modern mathematics and engineering?).
Also, for most of history preceding the Islamic
era from roughly 300 B.C to 700 A.D. India was
a mainly Buddhist society - both the rulers
and the masses practiced Buddhism. So if any
mathematical or scientific discoveries of such
magnitude were made during this period, they would
have been made by Buddhist mathematicians and scientists.
Croniclers from China who regularly visited India would
surely have report on this "magical mathematics" and
inventions of Indians. However, none of these direct
historical croniclers refer to such fantastical
mathematics. So they must have been lying to conceal
Brahmanical ingeuinity!
The Mahabharta (another Brahmin piece) also talks about
rockets and "uddhan khatolas" being used in the war.
From this "proof" of ancient Indian engineering,
the history of Engineering also needs to be updated.
Brahmin inventors of these rockets, helicopters, and planes
should replace the Wright Brothers, Nasa, and prominent
scientists from the U.S.A. and Soviet Union.
Also in the Ramayana (another Brahmin piece), we learn
of monkey armies who defeated Ravan and set fire to
Ravan's Lanka - with their tails. Modern Zoologists
are much behind the ability of ancient Brahmin Zoologists
who could train monkeys to speak, train for the army, and
set fire to cities - with their tales. Our stupid modern
scientists with all their computers and knowledge of
anatomy, physiology, genetics, psychology, biochemistry,
genetics, etc cannot even make monkey's talk and go to
the bathroom.
Ahhh only if our fantastical wise Brahmins were to come
back, the world would be a "golden sparrow" again!
Gurupdesh SIngh
In article <528f5m$k...@news.irisa.fr>, asa...@irisa.fr says...
>
>
> Mr Gurupdesh Singh writes -
>>
Sorry, for upsetting you and thank you for this information.
But your claim that KamaSutra was the work of a non-Brahmin
is going to upset the Brahmins on the net (4% of Hindus)
who like to claim that all inventions and mathematics
of ancient India were discovered by Brahmins - even during
the 10 centuries of the Buddhist period (300 B.C.-700 A.D.).
MoinA
>Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
>geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
>roots were invented by Brahmins?
In Spain, astronomical studies were cultivated after the
middle of the tenth century. They reproduced the Aristotelian
system, as distinguished from the Ptolemaic, the representation
of celestial movements. Abu-al-Qasim Maslamah al-Majriti (of
Madrid), the earliest Spanish Muslim astronomer edited and
corrected the zij (planetary tables of al-Khwarizmi), the first
tables composed by a Muslim. Among al-Majriti titles were al-
hisab or the mathematician, for he was considered the leader in
mathematical knowledge. About fourteen years later, the zij that
of al-Battani, was rendered into Latin by Plato of Tivoli.
Copernicus later quotes al-Battani in his book De revolutionibus
orbium coelestium . Al-Zarqali (known as Arzachel in Latin West)
the foremost astronomical observer of his age, deviced the
safihah, a type of astrolabe, that prove the motion of solar
apogee with reference to the stars (Hitti 570-71). Al-Bitruji,
known as Alpetragius developed a new theory of stellar movement
and wrote The book of Form in which it was detailed (Science p22
c3).
Arab astronomers left the sky immortal traces of their
findings. Not only are most of the star-names in European
languages are of Arabic origin (The Worlds Almanac and fact Book
p199 c2), but a number of technical term such as "azimuth" (al-
sumut), "nadir" (nazir), "zenith" (al-samt) are of Arabic
etymology. This testifies the rich legacy of Islam to Christian
Europe (Hitti 573).
The first of the Arabians, the rival indeed of Galen, was
the Persian Ibn Sina, or better known as Avicenna. He was given
the title 'the Prince of Medicine'. His most celebrated work is
Al-Qanun Fil-Tibb or "the Canon of Medicine." He is one of the
greatest names in the history of medicine. He could repeat the
Quraan by heart when he was ten years old, and by twelve he had
disputed in law and logic. He found that medicine was an easy
subject, not hard and thorny (Osler 98). "When I found a
difficulty," he says, "I reffered to my notes and prayed to the
creator" (qtd. Osler 98). His book was long and lengthy,
testifying many aspects of medicine. He classifies efficient
causes and symptoms of diseases. He said that diseases are caused
by the imbalance of the four elementary qualities of hot, wet
cold and dry in the body. Those caused by the faulty composition
or conformation of bodily parts, and those caused by trauma. The
cause of disease is categorize as either connected by the
environment, regimen, and psychology. Among them are the
traditional scheme of "non naturals" from air, food and drink,
repletion and inanition, to the passions of the soul. His book
also discuss concerns for the conservation of health: separate
sections on pediatric, adult, and geriatric regimen. Avicenna
provides twenty one fen on ailments distinctive to each major
organs of the body-arranged from head to toe. (Siraisi 21-22).
The "Black Death", in the middle of the fourteenth century
ravaged Europe while the Christians stood helpless. Ibn-al-
Khatib, a physician of Granada composed a treaties in defence of
the contagion theory and said:
To those who say, "How can we admit the possibility of
infection while the religious law denies it?" we reply that
the existence of contagion is established by experience,
investigation, the evidence on the senses and trustworthy
reports. These facts constitute a sound argument. The fact of
contagion becomes clear to the investigator who notices how
he who establishes contact with afflicted gets the disease,
whereas he who is not in contact remains safe, and how
transmission through garments, vessels and earrings (qtd.
Hitti 576).
The circulation of blood and the idea of quarantine came from an
empirical indication of contagion. It was discovered by Ibn al-
Nafis. Ibn Juljul of Cordoba in 943 became a leading physician at
the age of 24, compiled a book of special treaties on drugs found
in al-Andalus, the Iberian Peninsula (science p23). Ibn-Masawayh
wrote the oldest systematic treaties on opthamology. The book,
titled al-Ashr Maqalat fi al-'Ayn (the ten treaties of the eye)
was the earliest existing text book of opthmathology. In the
curative use of drugs, some amazing advances were made by the
Muslims. They have established the first apothecary shops, and
founded the earliest school of pharmacy (Hitti 364).
The Prince of Medicine, Avicenna, is himself a philosopher
(Arabic falsafah). Philosophy at the time is defined as the
knowledge of the true cause of things as they really are (Hitti
369). He is the first of the Arabic language who created a
philosophical system which is really complete and whole (Khan 5).
"It is noteworthy that Avicenna to his independent intellectual
attainments was without undue modesty" (Fakhry 149). From his
initial study of logic, he turned to the study of physics, and
metaphysics entirely on his own. He became the mentor of many
senior physician at the age of sixteen. By the age of eighteen,
he had mastered logic, physics and mathematics, so there was
nothing left for him to learn except to concentrate on
metaphysics. His major philosophical treaties is Kitab al-Shifa
or the Book of Healing , known in Latin by the title Sufficienta.
It is an encyclopedia of Islamic-Greek learning in the eleventh
century, ranging from logic to mathematics (Fakhry 149-150).
Another greatest patron of Philosophy and science in the
history of Islam is Caliph Al-Mamun. Son of Caliph Harun al-
Rashid, he encouraged on holding disputes in court on logical,
legal, and grammar (Rahman 182). He express with liberal
mindedness, great openness and equanimity (Fakhry 23). He
established in Baghdad his famous Bayt al-Hikmah (house of
wisdom) (Rahman 4), a combination library and academy which in
many respect is an important educational institution (Hitti 310).
This library contains books on all subjects-literature,
specifically Islamic sciences, natural sciences, logic,
philosophy, an many other subjects of thoughts (Rahman 182-183).
The greatest figure in the history of Islamic philosophy and
reaction to Neo Platonism is Imam al-Ghazali - a jurist,
theologian, philosopher and mystic. He said that the "Fiqh" is
the daily bread of believing soul, while the doctrine is only as
valuable as a medicine for the sick (De Boer 39). He also said
that he is being seized by the desire for the truth. He resolved
to search for a "certain knowledge" upon which the object known
in manner is not open to doubt at all. So if the truth were to be
challenged by a miracle-maker, it would withstand its claim -
solid (Fakhry 244-245). Fundamentally, al-Ghazali affirmed an
agnosticism about the ultimate and absolute nature of God. This
need for religious certainty impelled al-Ghazali to mysticism,
and led him back to the discovery of the Quraanic conception of
God. This revealed nature of God is constituted by the Divine
Names and Attributes (Rahman 95).
The first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic was al-
Kindi (Fakhry 9). He is the first peripatetic in Islam. He is
related in many ways to Mutazilite Dialecticians and the Neo-
Pythagorean Natural-Philosophers (DeBoer 97). He was a man of
extraordinary erudition which communicated observations as a
geographer, a historian of civilization and a physician (De Boer
99). Kindi is more than a philosopher. He was a chemist, an
optician and a music theorist (Hitti 370). "He was in no respect
a creative genius" (De Boer 99). The influence of al-Kindi as
author and teacher is mainly through his Mathematics, Geography
and Medicine (De Boer 105).
The intellectual history of the Arabs which the development
of philosophy and science in the Near East virtually begins with
the rise of Islam. Islam not only provide the Arabs with bold
world-view, but thrust them the cultural stage of the ancient
world and set before them their scientific and cultural
treasures. The first generation of Muslim scholars dedicated
themselves wholly to the fixing of a canon based primarily on the
Quran. This is because of the overwhelming sacredness of the
Quraan and the traditions of Prophet Muhammad (Fakhry 1-3). To
the Muslim scholars whose work is shown, the Quraan is the source
of all knowledge - the revelation of God (Science 32).
*************************************************************************
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MoinA
PART TWO
Mathematical vocabulary such as "algebra" and "algorithm"
are actually borrowings from Arabic words, that were later
translated into Latin. It was a Muslim mathematician who
formulated the trigonometric function explicitly. The word "sine"
was actually the direct translation of the arabic word "jayb". An
English mathematician Robert of Chester, who flourished in the
middle of the twelfth century, was the first to use sinus
equivalent to this Arabic jayb in its trigonometrical acception
(Hitti 573). Al-Khwarizmi composed the oldest book on
mathematics, known only in translation. He presented more than
800 examples of the calculation of integration and equation,
later anticipated by Neo-Babylonians (Hitti 379)."As in
trigonometry so in Algebra Muslims must be considered as the
founders of this science whose very name reflects its origin...
al-Khwarizmi... firmly established this branch of mathematics"
(qtd. King 214). They introduced it with the Arabic numerals into
Europe and taught Westerners the most convenient convention of
arithmetic concept. "The zero and Arabic numerals lie behind the
science of calculation as we know it today" (Hitti 573-574).
In the first half of the ninth century, exponent numerals
including the zero is used in preference to letters by al-
Khwarizmi. In the second half of the ninth century, the Muslims
of Spain developed numerals slightly different in shape, huruf
al-ghubar (letters of dust), originally used in conjunction with
a type of sand abacus. Leonardo Fibonacci of Pisa, who was taught
by a Muslim master published a work which remain a landmark in
the introduction of the Arabic numerals (Hitti 573-574).
Early in the ninth century, mathematical calculations
stimulates the crave for answers to the celestial motion. This
curiosity introduces a new field of thought, called astronomy.
One most important application of astronomy is the timekeeping
for the time of the five daily prayers. These are defined
according to the position of the sun moving from east to west.
The earliest known tables for such purpose are dated from the
tenth century (King 46-48). As necessary to accurate timekeeping
as tables are the instruments used by the Muslims:
The magnificent sundial that ibn al-Shatir constructed in the
year 1371/72 to adorn the main minaret of the Umayyad Mosque
in Damascus. The sundial displays the time of day relative to
sunrise, midday, and sunset and relative to the afternoon
prayer. There are also special curves for times relative to
daybreak and nightfall. Thus the sundial effectively measures
time with respect to each of the five daily prayers (King
547).
An individual by the name of Ibn al-Sarraj devised a series of
astrolables, quadrants, trigonometric grids and other instruments
which are innovative to the extreme. "I consider Ibn al-Sarraj's
astrolable, which is universal from five different aspects, to be
the most sophisticated astrolable from the Near East and
Europe..." (King 544).
Al-Khwarizmi, the genius mathematician, at the time applied
his findings to the new field from which he composed the oldest
planetary tables, or the zij (King 39, Hitti 379). His work
serves as a reference text and were rendered into Latin in the
twelfth century by Gerard of Cremona (Hitti 571). Among the first
regular astronomical observatory tower constructed was in
Jundaysabur, south west of Persia, under the direction of Sind
ibn-'Ali, and Yahaya ibn-abi-Mansur. Being the Caliph's
astronomer, not only that they construct a systematic chart of
celestial movements, but also verified the fundamental elements
of the Almangest (Hitti 373-375). The astronomers of al-Mamun,
the Abbasid Caliph, made many original observations. One of the
most outstanding is the measurement of the meridian near Mosul.
It was found to be 111,814 meters, and measured a degree of
latitude at about 36x north to be 2877 feet (qtd. King 214-215).
"The object is to determine the size of the earth and its
circumference on the assumption that the earth was round" (Hitti
375).
kdha...@students.uiuc.edu
Well said Gurupdesh!!!
MoinA
>Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
>geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
>roots were invented by Brahmins?
ISLAMIC CONTRIBUTIONS TO SCIENCE
----------------------------------------------------------------
The Islamic empire in the early 6th. centuries were the inheritors of the
scientific tradition of late antiquity. They preserved it, elaborated it,
and finally, passed it to Europe (Science p3). At this early date, the
Islamic dynasty of the Umayyads envinced an interest in science. It was
the century that were, for Europeans, the Dark Ages, were, for Muslim
scholars, centuries of philosophical and scientific discovery and
development. The Arabs at the time not only assimilated the ancient wisdom
of Persia, and the classical heritage of Greece, but adapted their own
distinctive needs and ways of thinking
(Hitti 363).
The Islamic ability to reconcile monotheism and science
proofs to be a first time in human thought that theology,
philosophy, and science were finally harmonized in a unified
whole. Thus their contribution was "one of the first magnitude,
considering its effect upon scientific and philosophic thought
and upon the theology of later times" (Hitti 580). One of the
reason for such development of science is probably due to God's
commandment to explore the laws of nature. The idea is to admire
all creations for its complexity - to cherish the creator for the
ingenuity. Possibly holding to this believe, Islam's
contributions to science had covered many roots of thought
including mathematics, astronomy, medicine and philosophy. This
paper will examine these roots of natural science, and unearth
the contributions of the Islamic thinkers.
Islam's redound to encourage into thinking was accessed by
two other ancient cultures - the Persian and the Indians. They
became part of the Islamic heritage in the field of mathematics
(Hitti 373).
Indian mathematicians developed the
symbol "cipher" or zero and the system of placed notation. This
invention, first mentioned in a Syriac text written in 662 AD,
revolutionized the study of mathematics and made possible the
great achievements of Muslim mathematicians (Science p4).
MoinA
>Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
>geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
>roots were invented by Brahmins?
Many hints was given in the Quran as a prove of the All
Knowing. God says: "Verily God Knows The secrets of the Heavens
And earth:and God sees well all That ye do" (Quran 65:18). Some
of the hints that were mentioned are: "Do not the unbeliever see
that the heavens and earth Were joined together (as one Unit of
Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water Every
living thing. Will they not believe?" (Quran 21:30). God phrase "
Do not They Think...", in certain parts of the Quran after
illuminating natural phenomena unthought of by man. Such hints
enhanced man's curiosity and probably fueled their quest for
knowledge. As the roots of knowledge has been established, the
branches and leaves then flourished onto todays advance
technology. Such roots must never be forgotten as without solid
foundation, no pillars can be built and lived on.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Work cited
Business Week 22 Jul. 1985, page 90-91
De Boer, D. T. J.History of Philosophy in Islam ,1933.
Translation by Edward R. Jones. London: Luzac & Company Ltd, 1970.
Fakhry, Majid. A history of Islamic Philosophy .New York and
London: Columbia University Press, 1970.
Hitti, K.Phillip. History of the Arabs.New York: St. Martins
Press, 1970
Khan, M.S. The Philosophy of Avicenna. Delhi: Motilal
Banarsidass, First Edition 1969.
King, A. David. Islamic Mathematical Astronomy .London: Varioum
Reprints, 1986.
Osler, Sir William. The Evolution of Modern Medicine. New Haven:
Yale University Press, 1921.
Quran. Translation by A. Yusuf Ali. Maryland: Amana Corp, 1983
Rahman, Fazlur. ISLAM. Chicago:The University of Chicago Press,
Second edition 1979
Science : The Islamic Legacy: Worlds fair issue, 1987
Sirasi, G. Nancy. AVICENNA in Renaissance Italy. New Jersey:
Princeton University Press, 1987.
The World Almanac and Book of Facts. New York, 1988
Prateek
From the begining anyone can notice that you
don't have the slightest inclination towards knowing
anything and the only desire you have to prove that the
OC hindus who are 8% of the society didn't do anything
apart from raping you brothers and sisters, and you
are crying for justice and that I am a kirar because
I can argue and kirars are good at argument ( this is
good logical deduction !)
Prateek
Gurupdesh SIngh wrote:
>
> In article <324B62...@bbn.com>, sb...@bbn.com says...
> >surely you jest, comrade gurupdesh. here's a list:
>
> >the sulvasutras & sathapatha brahmana (geometry, trigonometry)
> **************************************************************
>
> Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
> geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
> roots were invented by Brahmins?
Now in the post write that your father and grandfather did
some research which was grabbed by OC hindus, which compromise just
8% of the society and call me a kirar for writing this.
Farhan Siddiqui
Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:
The Love Teachings of Holy Kama Sutra
================================
By Vatasyayana
Farhan Siddiqui
Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:
>Gurupdesh SIngh wrote:
>>
>> In article <324B62...@bbn.com>, sb...@bbn.com says...
>> >surely you jest, comrade gurupdesh. here's a list:
>>
>> >the sulvasutras & sathapatha brahmana (geometry, trigonometry)
>> **************************************************************
>>
>> Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
>> geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
>> roots were invented by Brahmins?
> Now in the post write that your father and grandfather did
>some research which was grabbed by OC hindus, which compromise just
>8% of the society and call me a kirar for writing this.
Brahmins or OC Hindus alos perfected the eroticism centuries ago
before their moder rediscovery so they also need some recognition.
Farhan Siddiqui
********************************************************************************************************************
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <324EE5...@netscape.com>, apra...@netscape.com says...
Not the "Kirars" I have seen on this ng! They dont
seem to be displaying 1/10 the intelligence that
their "wise old sages" are supposed to have had!
Akhil Sahai
>
> Also, for most of history preceding the Islamic
> era from roughly 300 B.C to 700 A.D. India was
> a mainly Buddhist society - both the rulers
> and the masses practiced Buddhism. So if any
> mathematical or scientific discoveries of such
>
I don't know what kind of bias you have against Hindus because Brahmins are an
integral part of the Hindu religion. For me casteism is not so apparent as it is
to you. As far as the point above I would like to correct you. Buddha was born
sometime in 400AD. So your above quotation is totally wrong. Only North India was
influenced by Buddha during his period and his influence disappeared in India
soon after his death as people misinterpreted his teachings while it continued to
flourish in other countries as it does now also. As far as the names of the Hindus
who propounded various mathematical theories it is very well documented in the
books mentioned by some of the nettors. It is indeed a fact that decimal system,
the division of time in parts of 60, the concept of infinity, so called pythagoras
theorem and host of other mathematical equations were discovered during the Vedic
period. I think you are confusing between mythologies and the real discoveries.
They are two differrent domains and should not be mixed together. There exist a host
of technical literature like leelavati and others(refer to the list posted earlier).
The things described in mythologies have no relation whatsoever to the technical
literature available.
Akhil
Akhil Sahai
>
> Sorry, for upsetting you and thank you for this information.
> But your claim that KamaSutra was the work of a non-Brahmin
> is going to upset the Brahmins on the net (4% of Hindus)
> who like to claim that all inventions and mathematics
> of ancient India were discovered by Brahmins - even during
> the 10 centuries of the Buddhist period (300 B.C.-700 A.D.).
>
Its always good to discuss things out . I never said that Vatsayan was
not a brahmin . What I was objecting to was the usage of the plural term
brahmin(s) and your linking them to be priests. Not every brahmin is a priest.
Vatsayan was indeed a brahmin(Hindu) but the book has absolutely nothing to do with
religion and your claim that it was written to connect people to God etc are
totally false. It is manual on sex written by a person who was probably interested
in putting the new postures he discovered down on pen and paper. In the whole book
there is absolutely no mention of God or religion. Again your dates about
Buddhist period is wrong because Buddha was born sometime in 400 AD. And how
can the period before he was born be buddhist.
John Mitchell
Akhil Sahai wrote:
>
> >
> > Also, for most of history preceding the Islamic
> > era from roughly 300 B.C to 700 A.D. India was
> > a mainly Buddhist society - both the rulers
> > and the masses practiced Buddhism. So if any
> > mathematical or scientific discoveries of such
> >
> integral part of the Hindu religion. For me casteism is not so apparent as it is
> sometime in 400AD. So your above quotation is totally wrong. Only North
No. You are wrong. Buddha was born more than 2,500 years ago.
Akhil Sahai
Please refer to History books I am sure the dates are right because I know the
dates
John Mitchell
Akhil Sahai wrote:
>
> Please refer to History books I am sure the dates are right because I know the
> dates
Buyddha's birth date was in 5th Century B.C. Someone in
uk.religion.buddhist can confirm.
Akhil Sahai
> Buyddha's birth date was in 5th Century B.C. Someone in
> uk.religion.buddhist can confirm.
>
> See http://www.vrpa.com/bookstore/jaini-review.htm
I guess I made a faux pas. But it does not change the contents of the actual mail
much as this was an unrelated comment. The actual mail was about the denial of the
numerous well documented discoveries of Hindu mathematicians and as far as the
veracity of the technical documents are concerned they still hold.
Akhil
Prateek
Farhan Siddiqui wrote:
>
> Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:
>
> >Gurupdesh SIngh wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <324B62...@bbn.com>, sb...@bbn.com says...
> >> >surely you jest, comrade gurupdesh. here's a list:
> >>
> >> >the sulvasutras & sathapatha brahmana (geometry, trigonometry)
> >> **************************************************************
> >>
> >> Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
> >> geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
> >> roots were invented by Brahmins?
>
> > Now in the post write that your father and grandfather did
> >some research which was grabbed by OC hindus, which compromise just
> >8% of the society and call me a kirar for writing this.
>
> Brahmins or OC Hindus alos perfected the eroticism centuries ago
> before their moder rediscovery so they also need some recognition.
>
Its good that you are now recognizing Hindus. Actually, all
of you have emerged from the great Hindus. By Hindus don't think
I am being castist but I am talking of the people who lived on
this hindukush region, who were aware of all aspects of life.
We are proud that in these people produced works on mathematics,
philosphy, science, medicene, astronomy and sex.
They lead a balanced life, life of a man and not the
life of a terrorist or a fanatic.
Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <324F9B...@dial.pipex.com>,
of Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:04:52 +0000,
John Mitchell <nj...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> Akhil Sahai wrote:
>> . . . Buddha was born sometime in 400AD. . . .
> No. You are wrong. Buddha was born more than 2,500
> years ago. - John Mitchell <nj...@dial.pipex.com>
[Excerpts]
by Gopal Sharma
[February 5, 1996] KATHMANDU, Nepal (Reuter) - An
international team of archeologists has reported
discovering the chamber where Buddha was born more than
2,500 years ago, 16 feet beneath an ancient temple in
southwestern Nepal.
[...]
Buddhist literature says Ashoka placed a stone on top
of bricks at the birthplace of Prince Siddhartha, the
founder of Buddhism who was born in 623 B.C. [BCE] and
later called Lord Buddha. Ashoka also built a nearby
pillar which still stands.
[End of Excerpts]
Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi, Vedic Astrologer j...@mantra.com
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:%
<a href="mailto:j...@eskimo.com">Dr. Jai Maharaj</a>
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Kumar Abhishek
From asa...@irisa.fr Mon Sep 30 12:01:07 EST 1996
Article: 44883 of soc.culture.punjab
Path: mozo.cc.purdue.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!news-rocq.inria.fr!irisa.fr!usenet
From: asa...@irisa.fr (Akhil Sahai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.indian.bihar,soc.culture.indian.delhi,soc.culture.indian.karnataka,soc.culture.punjab,soc.culture.pakistan.religion,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.kashmir,uk.religion.buddhist
Subject: Re: Brahmins invented modern mathematics and engineering
Date: 30 Sep 1996 13:17:02 GMT
Organization: Irisa, Rennes (FR)
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Message-ID: <52oh8e$a...@news.irisa.fr>
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Akhil
Buddha was born in 483 B.C. Any history book on ancient India can verify this.
Kumar
Prateek
Farhan Siddiqui wrote:
>
> Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:
>
> >Gurupdesh SIngh wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <324B62...@bbn.com>, sb...@bbn.com says...
> >> >surely you jest, comrade gurupdesh. here's a list:
> >>
> >> >the sulvasutras & sathapatha brahmana (geometry, trigonometry)
> >> **************************************************************
> >>
> >> Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
> >> geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
> >> roots were invented by Brahmins?
>
> > Now in the post write that your father and grandfather did
> >some research which was grabbed by OC hindus, which compromise just
> >8% of the society and call me a kirar for writing this.
>
> Brahmins or OC Hindus alos perfected the eroticism centuries ago
> before their moder rediscovery so they also need some recognition.
>
>
I am proud that my ancestors didn't looked down upon sex.
Dr. Jai Maharaj
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In the article <325004...@netscape.com>,
of Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:33:54 -0800,
Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:
> I am proud that my ancestors didn't looked down upon sex.
> - Prateek <apra...@netscape.com>
Humans feeling ashamed of the sexual process is as
absurd as plants being ashamed of their seed and fruit.
Sex -- you can't be without it.
Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi j...@mantra.com j...@eskimo.com
%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:%:% Om Shanti %:%:%
<a href="mailto:j...@eskimo.com">Dr. Jai Maharaj</a>
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Gurupdesh Singh
******************************************************************************
>can the period before he was born be buddhist.
Your "historical training" by the Brahmin dominated
Castecracy is showing. Do they teach Indians that
Buddha lived in 400 A.D.? - this is 900 years out
of the true date.
Well, for your information, the Buddha lived in
the 5th century B.C.
Ranjiv Singh Virik
Personally, i think Buddhism was basically reformist hinduism
....in the same trend of philosophy as Sankara and Nagarjuna
that followed...basically i think buddhism left India due to
one reason.....the castlessness of buddhist society thretened
the power strusture that hinduism had....(caste etc) ...although it is
debatatble that these existed at that particular period in time.
Anybody with thought on this
rsv
Ranjiv Singh Virik
Ranjiv Singh Virik
Technical literature you say? How uninteresting.
Mythologies to me are much more. Indians by the way seem to
have a love and a knack for maths (which i hope i share).
Pity though, i think our people are to busy chasing after the almighty dollar
at
present, and not contributing as they could to the advancement...never mind.
Pankaj Kakkar
Ranjiv Singh Virik wrote:
>
> Personally, i think Buddhism was basically reformist hinduism
I don't think that is correct - although you are entitled to your
opinion.
What constitutes a seperate religion is really like thinking what
constitutes different languages. A "dialect" is classified as a
different language, if it has a wealth of literature written in the
dialect. So, for example, Avadhi is a dialect, but Urdu is a seperate
language (oh please, don't flame me on this :}).
Similarly, Buddhism has such a lot of independent literature and
thought, that you *cannot*, in my opinion, call it a sect or simply
"reformist hinduism". In fact, Buddhism now has many different sects,
and it is on the verge of branching out into seperate religions itself.
It was identified as a seperate religion a very long time ago.
> that followed...basically i think buddhism left India due to
> one reason.....the castlessness of buddhist society thretened
> the power strusture that hinduism had....(caste etc) ...although it is
You are absolutely right on this one. Really, Buddhism initially had
such a large following in India just because the people at that time
were fed up of most of the caste divisions in Hinduism. This does not
mean that Buddhism did not have any good features of its own - but the
caste divisions of Hinduism were a major factor in getting it popularity
in the initial stages, and as it threatened hinduism more and more, in
pushing it out of India.
> debatatble that these existed at that particular period in time.
No it is not. Caste divisions have always existed in hinduism throughout
history. Not one history book that I've read has failed to mention this.
Could somebody else also throw more light on this?
Pankaj
--
_____________________________________________________________________
/ \
| Pankaj Kakkar |
| URL : http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~pankaj |
| |
| Addresses : |
| |
| Office: Home: |
| PhD Student 2211 Walnut St |
| CIS Dept., Apt No 7 |
| School of Engineering and Applied Sciences Philadelphia |
| University of Pennsylvania, PA 19104 PA 19103 |
| USA. USA |
\____________________________________________________________________/
Paul Kekai Manansala
In article <325179...@gradient.cis.upenn.edu>,
Pankaj Kakkar <pan...@gradient.cis.upenn.edu> wrote:
>Ranjiv Singh Virik wrote:
>>
>> Personally, i think Buddhism was basically reformist hinduism
>
>I don't think that is correct - although you are entitled to your
>opinion.
>
I have to agree. Buddhism rejected the authority of the Vedas
and was against ascetism and caste, to name just a few items.
Buddhism is an Indian/Nepalese religion in origin, but to claim
it as a sect of Hinduism is wrong since Hinduism itself is a modern
conceptualization. Most "Hindus" don't practice orthodox Hinduism
at all, but the folk Hinduism of Indian villages. This is really
just plain indigenous animism with the local deities occassionaly
being referred to as forms of Siva, Durga or whatnot.
What most people confuse with Hinduism is really Brahmanism, and one
could hardly call Buddhism a form of Brahmanism. Buddhism was
quite anti-brahmanical and it took pride in getting brahmins to give up
the idea of caste divisions.
Paul Kekai Manansala
Austric in India Homepage
http://www.he.net/~skyeagle/austric.htm
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <324EE4...@netscape.com>, apra...@netscape.com says...
>
>Gurupdesh SIngh wrote:
>>
>> In article <324B62...@bbn.com>, sb...@bbn.com says...
>> >surely you jest, comrade gurupdesh. here's a list:
>>
>> >the sulvasutras & sathapatha brahmana (geometry, trigonometry)
>> **************************************************************
>>
>> Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
>> geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
>> roots were invented by Brahmins?
>
> Now in the post write that your father and grandfather did
>some research which was grabbed by OC hindus, which compromise just
>8% of the society and call me a kirar for writing this.
You will remain a "kirar" regardless of what research my family did!
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <52oh8e$a...@news.irisa.fr>, asa...@irisa.fr says...
>
>
>
>> Buyddha's birth date was in 5th Century B.C. Someone in
>> uk.religion.buddhist can confirm.
>>
>> See http://www.vrpa.com/bookstore/jaini-review.htm
>I guess I made a faux pas. But it does not change the contents of the
actual mail
>much as this was an unrelated comment. The actual mail was about the
denial of the
>numerous well documented discoveries of Hindu mathematicians and as far
as the
>veracity of the technical documents are concerned they still hold.
>
>Akhil
>
Here is a bit of history on the demise of Buddhism you may
find "enlightening".
The entire Indian subcontinent was primarily Buddhist
from approximately 400 B.C. to 700 A.D. During the period
not only was Buddhism the religion of the masses, but also
of the rulers. The Buddha believed in the the oneness and
equality of humanity, opened his spiritual path to all members
of society, and rejected the Brahmanical caste creed along
with it's pantheons of dieties and ritualistic practices.
The emergence of Buddhism around 400 B.C. gave the Indian
masses much needed relief from the depravities and barbarities
of the Brahmanical caste order and ushered a great era of
development and achievement of high civilization.
However, 11 centuries later in the 7th century A.D., the crafty
ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
"Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
Buddists who resisted conversion.
Thousands of Buddhist temples, monastaries, and sacred
manuscripts developed over 1100 years of Buddhist civilization
were destroyed. In order to eliminate once and for all
the Buddhist challenge to Brahmanical hegemony, the Brahmin
intellegenstia (using the Karma Theory trick) proclaimed
the Buddha as an avtar of Vishnu - thus encapsulating
Buddhism in the dark folds of Brahmanism and rendering it
impotent as a force of spiritual and social liberation for
the Indian peoples. A systematic attempt was made to erase and
de-legitimize 11 centuries of Buddhist history and civilization
by dubbing Buddhist rulers (starting with Ashoka) as "shudras"
and "mlechha" kings.
In fact, if it was not for the frequent visits by Chinense,
Tibetan, and Sri Lankan travelers to the subcontinent during
this period, who took back manuscripts and recorded their
travels in chronicles, the Buddhist period in India would
have been completed obliterated from history. In literature
maintained by the Brahmins (all dating to post 700 A.D.),
the Buddhist period is obscured and depicted as a period of
insignificance. For example, Ashoka Maurya (the greatest
Emperor to rise in the subcontinent) is mentioned in
Brahmanical writings as a "minor king" and a "Shudra" who
was "not generous of Brahmins".
(By the way, the same tactics are being employed in the
continuing Brahmanical onslaught on Sikhism - which is
perceived by the Brahmin theocracy as the last organized
spiritual threat to their dreams of Brahmanical hegemony
in India. Hence, the policy of denying of religious,
linguistic, political, and resource rights to Punjab;
attack over 38 Gurudwaras in 1984, genocide of of 150,000
Sikhs, torture, etc. )
This historical brief allows us to draw the following
lessons from the Brahmanical victory over Buddhism:
1) The Indian subcontinent has not historically always been
"Hindu". In fact, the emergence of Brahmanism in 700 A.D.,
just precedes the initial contact of Islam in India by a few
years. During the 1100 years preceding this, India was a
predominatly Buddhist state and society.
3) The claim of historians from the orthodox castes (8%:
Brahmins, Banias, Kayasth and other traditionally
non-landowning castes) is really a historican "fantasy"
constructed to further their political claims over Indian
governance and promote their dreams of social and economic
hegemony through the caste system. The framework of this
immoral and repressive socio/religious ideology is spelled
out by Manusmati - "the Hindu Law Giver"- in his
VarnaAshramDharma. In modern times (dating to the 19th
century), Brahmanical elitism has been given a new (modern)
spin by using the "Aryan theory" advanced by colonial
historians.
3) Since the Brahmanical literature is capable of falsifying
even the history of Ashoka the Great, its use as a source of
historical information is suspect. The writings kept by
Brahmins over time are not a window on history but
distortions, fantasies, and myths created to further their
elitist interests.
4) The incredible irony of history is that just a few decades
before contact with Islam, the Brahmin zealots were able to
extinguish a progressive religion like Buddhism in the whole
of the subcontinent in a matter of few years while the
"barbaric muslim hordes" could not accomplish the same design
over a span of 750 years.
One obvious lesson of history is that the "muslim barbarians"
could have learnt a lot about the "art of genocide" from the
more efficient Brahmins.
Prateek
Yesterday, in Fremont I think I saw you fighting.
Its good that kirar don't fight. But I will still say it
is a funny word.
Khalid
In article <5ADUyQ9z...@mantra.com>, j...@mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj) writes:
|>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|>
|>In the article <325004...@netscape.com>,
|>of Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:33:54 -0800,
|>Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:
|>> I am proud that my ancestors didn't looked down upon sex.
|>> - Prateek <apra...@netscape.com>
I see, that is why your ancestors invented Linga and Yoni. In this
modern age, is "vibrator" better alternative to stone made linga?
|>Humans feeling ashamed of the sexual process is as
|>absurd as plants being ashamed of their seed and fruit.
|>Sex -- you can't be without it.
|>
|>Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi j...@mantra.com j...@eskimo.com
Maharaj! go and sit on Linga. Do not be ashamed.
Ashok Verma
In article <52iev3$s...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, gs...@cornell.edu says...
>
>In article <324B62...@bbn.com>, sb...@bbn.com says...
>>surely you jest, comrade gurupdesh. here's a list:
>
>>the sulvasutras & sathapatha brahmana (geometry, trigonometry)
>**************************************************************
>
>Are you claiming that geometry, trignometry, linear equations,
>geometric progression, algebra, sines, cosines, nCr, nPr,
>roots were invented by Brahmins?
>
>to the ancient Greeks.
>
>Astrology which is used by Brahmins is a Greek import.
>
>Algebra was invested by the Arabs - thats why it is
>called Algebra.
>
>Now to be fair, I will grant you that some Indian
>invented zero.
>
>Most of the advanced mathematics: calculus, Eucludian spaces,
>topology, differential algebra, probabability theory, etc
>are traced to Newton, Gauss, Fermat, Descartes, etc and
>do not precede the 16th century. To my knowledge, none
>of them claimed to be Brahmins!
>
>Also, the oldest existing Brahmanical manuscripts do not
>predate the 11-13 century A.D. I am sure if these
>Brahmin books with the names given below exist
>and pertain to these advanced mathematical subjects
>discovered after the 16th century, the history of mathematics
>would reflect these "contribution". Since so many
>Indian math professors teach in western schools,
>these "facts of history" should have not trouble
>being accepted - if they are in fact "true" and not
>myths like the "history in the Ramayana and Mahabharta"
>- other better known Brahmanical works!
>
>(Does one of you want to float a conspiracy theory
>of why old Brahmins do not get the credit for
>modern mathematics and engineering?).
>
>Also, for most of history preceding the Islamic
>era from roughly 300 B.C to 700 A.D. India was
>a mainly Buddhist society - both the rulers
>and the masses practiced Buddhism. So if any
>mathematical or scientific discoveries of such
>have been made by Buddhist mathematicians and scientists.
>Croniclers from China who regularly visited India would
>surely have report on this "magical mathematics" and
>inventions of Indians. However, none of these direct
>historical croniclers refer to such fantastical
>mathematics. So they must have been lying to conceal
>Brahmanical ingeuinity!
>
>The Mahabharta (another Brahmin piece) also talks about
>rockets and "uddhan khatolas" being used in the war.
>From this "proof" of ancient Indian engineering,
>the history of Engineering also needs to be updated.
>Brahmin inventors of these rockets, helicopters, and planes
>should replace the Wright Brothers, Nasa, and prominent
>scientists from the U.S.A. and Soviet Union.
>
>Also in the Ramayana (another Brahmin piece),
Ramayana is another piece of book on which the entire brahmin comminity is
serviviing. If, one does not know what it is read a book named "Hindu Samaj ke
Path Bhrastak Tulsidas". This book is published by a publisher who do publish
the fampus hindi magazine Sarita.
we learn
>of monkey armies who defeated Ravan and set fire to
>Ravan's Lanka - with their tails. Modern Zoologists
>are much behind the ability of ancient Brahmin Zoologists
>who could train monkeys to speak, train for the army, and
>set fire to cities - with their tales. Our stupid modern
>scientists with all their computers and knowledge of
>anatomy, physiology, genetics, psychology, biochemistry,
>genetics, etc cannot even make monkey's talk and go to
>the bathroom.
>
>Ahhh only if our fantastical wise Brahmins were to come
>back, the world would be a "golden sparrow" again!
>
>
>>the gantanuyoga (system of calculation)
>>umaswati (started math school at pataliputra) geometry, infinity,
>combinatorics
>>surya siddhanta (table of sines, astronomy)
>>brahma sputa siddhanta (astronomy, geometric progressions, closed form
>solns, trig)
>>bhaskara's siddhantha siromani (arithmetic-lilavati,
>algebra-bijanganita,
>> astronomy-goladhyaya and gruhaganita)
>>arya bhatta (square & cube roots, linear equations, arith. sequences,
>trig., etc)
>>Varahamihira (astronomy, sines, cosines, etc.)
>>Khandakhadyaya (astronomy, 2nd order differences, algebra)
>>ganita sara sangraha (4th degree eqns, nCr, nPr, fractions,
>indeterminate eqns, etc)
>>narayana pandit (arithmetic & algebra)
>>sridhara (roots, fractions, arith & geom series)
>>
>>other works by govindaswami, pruthudakaswami, manjula, prashastidhara,
>halayudha,
>>sripathi, hemachandra suri, cangadeva, parameswara, sankara variar,
>jyesthadeva,
>>achyta pisarati, putumana somayaji, jaganath pandit, sankara varman,
>madhava,
>>nilakanta somayaji
>>
>>Mr Gurupdesh Singh writes -
>>
>>: >Because the Brahmins wrote a lot
>>: >of secular literature as well -
>>: >mathematics, for eg, astronomy,
>>: >prosody, dramatic theory etc etc.
>>: >So authorship by Brahmins does
>>: >not make a book holy, unless you
>>: >think math books are holy ..
>>
>>: Can you provide a name of one math
>>: book written by a Brahmin from ancient
>>: times - pre-18th century.
>
Farhan Siddiqui
Prateek <apra...@netscape.com> wrote:
>Gurupdesh SIngh wrote:
>>
>> In article <528f5m$k...@news.irisa.fr>, asa...@irisa.fr says...
>> >
>> >
>> > Mr Gurupdesh Singh writes -
>> >>
>> >> : If Kamasutra were not holy shastras, why were they written
>> >> : by Brahmins - supposedly priests connecting the faithful
>> >
>> >
>> >For your kind Information Kamasutra was not written by
>> "Brahmins-supposedly priests"
>> >It was written by Vatsayana who was far from a priest. He lived with
>> prostitutes
>> >to study the various postures he describes. So the above shows your
>> limited knowledge
>> >and nothing else.
>>
>> Sorry, for upsetting you and thank you for this information.
>> But your claim that KamaSutra was the work of a non-Brahmin
>> is going to upset the Brahmins on the net (4% of Hindus)
>> who like to claim that all inventions and mathematics
>> of ancient India were discovered by Brahmins - even during
>> the 10 centuries of the Buddhist period (300 B.C.-700 A.D.).
> From the begining anyone can notice that you
>don't have the slightest inclination towards knowing
>anything and the only desire you have to prove that the
>OC hindus who are 8% of the society didn't do anything
>apart from raping you brothers and sisters, and you
>are crying for justice and that I am a kirar because
>I can argue and kirars are good at argument ( this is
>good logical deduction !)
Sanjay Joshi
Vatsyayana's wife must have had a whale of a time!!
Sanjay
On 6 Oct 1996, Jochen
Katz wrote:
>Don't you think, Farhan Siddiqui, it to be strange that you are the only
>one here spreading "sexual education" [Kama Sutra sex techniques]? How
>on earth do you get that together with your "Islamic convictions"? Is it
>allowed in your opinion to give explicit sexual instructions on the
>internet where people under age and unmarried might read it?
>
>You are doing exactly what you supposedly try to expose. That is utter
>hypocricy. May God grant you repentence and forgiveness.
>
>Jochen Katz
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjay S.Joshi http://ee.tamu.edu/~joshi/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jochen Katz
Farhan Siddiqui
jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz) wrote:
>Jochen Katz
What about vulgarities posted on the net by others.
Farhan Siddiqui
Sanjay Veerabathina (CS)
Ho ho ho ........... others are supposed to be infediels and kafirs bound
for hell and your religion is supposed to be the only religion meant for
humans , so why are you comparing yourself with others, you idiot ?
sanjay
Uday Reddy
Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
>
> However, 11 centuries later in the 7th century A.D., the crafty
> ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
> "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
> of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
> An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
> Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
> Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
> and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
> Buddists who resisted conversion.
Gurupdeshji, for somebody at Cornell, you have a pretty wild
imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
dream it up last night?
Uday Reddy
Jochen Katz
In article <53bvvk$4...@news.pathcom.com>,
sidd...@digiplace.com (Farhan Siddiqui) writes:
> jk...@math.gatech.edu (Jochen Katz) wrote:
>
> >Don't you think, Farhan Siddiqui, it to be strange that you are the only
> >one here spreading "sexual education" [Kama Sutra sex techniques]? How
> >on earth do you get that together with your "Islamic convictions"? Is it
> >allowed in your opinion to give explicit sexual instructions on the
> >internet where people under age and unmarried might read it?
>
> >You are doing exactly what you supposedly try to expose. That is utter
> >hypocricy. May God grant you repentence and forgiveness.
>
> >Jochen Katz
>
> What about vulgarities posted on the net by others.
>
> Farhan Siddiqui
Well, the only one posting sexually explicit material on this
newsgroup over the last few months has been YOU. [I read this
thread in soc.culture.pakistan.religion - I make no statements
about all the other groups you crosspost this to] .
Further: What is the name of the religion which says if others
do wrong things you are excused from doing the same or even
commanded doing the same?
If I see on TV that somebody committed murder, does that mean
I have to go murder somebody too?
What strange reasoning is that?
If others post vulgarities that is their own problem. But you
wage a religious war and supposedly speak as a Muslim. I would
expect some different behavior from you in this regard.
Jochen Katz
Jaffer
Uday Reddy wrote:
>
> Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
> >
> > However, 11 centuries later in the 7th century A.D., the crafty
> > ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
> > "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
> > of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
> > An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
> > Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
> > Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
> > and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
> > Buddists who resisted conversion.
>
> imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
> dream it up last night?
>
> Uday Reddy
Udayji,
Actually Gurupdeshji is correct in his narrative of history - though it
would be more palatable without the usual Hindi filmi melodrama. The
destruction of Buddhism is a historical fact as is the uprooting of the
bodhi tree that the Buddha meditated under. The relegation of Indian
Buddhism, amongst the survivors, as just one more form of Hinduism and
Buddha being a mere manifestation of Krishna was to follow soon.
I know that it defies the propagandist image of Hinduism being a
religion of peace, too. It also tells you why Indian Moslems dont
believe that false propaganda and know that what was done to the
Buddhists willl be done to them.
Regards,
Jaffer Jamil
flame me, but dont send me personal e-mail.
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <325B12...@cs.uiuc.edu>, re...@cs.uiuc.edu says...
>
>Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
>>
>> However, 11 centuries later in the 7th century A.D., the crafty
>> ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
>> "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
>> of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
>> An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
>> Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
>> Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
>> and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
>> Buddists who resisted conversion.
>
>imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
>dream it up last night?
>
>Uday Reddy
I will gather some references over the break since I read
about this some time ago. In the meanwhile, however,
some food for thought:
1) Why would the majority of Indians (92%) who had lived
in the relatively egalitarian society of Buddhist India
for almost 1100 years, all of a sudden get up one
morning and "voluntarily choose" Brahmanism under
which their treatment is worse than that of dogs?
2) Patterns of world history show that drastic changes
in religions occur due to political factors - such
as new invasions. 500-700 A.D. corresponds
to such a period when the northern and central
subcontinent was overun by the White Huns from
central asia (all prominent Rajput dynastic
geneologies do not precede 600 A.D. - refer to
the pioneering work of Todd, Cunningham, Elliot,
and Ibbetson from the middle of the 19th century).
Uday Reddy
Jaffer wrote:
> >
> > Gurupdeshji, for somebody at Cornell, you have a pretty wild
> > imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
> > dream it up last night?
> >
> > Uday Reddy
>
>
> Actually Gurupdeshji is correct in his narrative of history - though it
> would be more palatable without the usual Hindi filmi melodrama. The
> destruction of Buddhism is a historical fact as is the uprooting of the
> bodhi tree that the Buddha meditated under. The relegation of Indian
> Buddhism, amongst the survivors, as just one more form of Hinduism and
> Buddha being a mere manifestation of Krishna was to follow soon.
Well, I certainly hope the source of Gurupedeshji's historical knowledge
is not YOU!
Uday Reddy
Kunal Singh
In article <325B12...@cs.uiuc.edu> Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> writes:
.. stuff deleted ..
Gurupdeshji, for somebody at Cornell, you have a pretty wild
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
^^^^^^^^^^^
dream it up last night?
Mr. Reddy,
Are you trying to make the statement that people at Cornell in general
do not have an imagination ? :-)
Rajah Skandarajah
gs...@cornell.edu (Gurupdesh Singh) wrote:
>In article <325B12...@cs.uiuc.edu>, re...@cs.uiuc.edu says...
>>
>>Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
>>>
>>> ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
>>> "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
>>> of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
>>> An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
>>> Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
>>> Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
>>> and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
>>> Buddists who resisted conversion.
>>
>>
>
>I will gather some references over the break since I read
>about this some time ago. In the meanwhile, however,
>some food for thought:
>
>1) Why would the majority of Indians (92%) who had lived
> in the relatively egalitarian society of Buddhist India
> for almost 1100 years, all of a sudden get up one
> morning and "voluntarily choose" Brahmanism under
> which their treatment is worse than that of dogs?
I suggest you read some history(And that too, not written
by a fanatic). Your whole statement has no grounds. Buddhism
was, and still is, a largely monatic doctrine. Many of
the Buddha's diciples were Brahmins who left their
families to follow the Buddha. And the strenght of the
Brahmin castist society still had a rigid hold on India. Although
many familly men followed the Buddha and his teachings, their
participation in society still pulled them towards casticism.
It is like some christians in India I know, who sing the equality
of all in church but practice don't-touchism in society for
fear of being branded as "one who mixes with the untouchables".
If you think India was ever free of casticism after the
advent of the Buddha to the extent that
92% of the population were treated as equals, you need to do
some serious reading on Indian history.
>2) Patterns of world history show that drastic changes
> in religions occur due to political factors - such
> as new invasions. 500-700 A.D. corresponds
> to such a period when the northern and central
> subcontinent was overun by the White Huns from
> central asia (all prominent Rajput dynastic
> geneologies do not precede 600 A.D. - refer to
> the pioneering work of Todd, Cunningham, Elliot,
> and Ibbetson from the middle of the 19th century).
Not all religions. Buddhism is distinct from all religions since
its basis is "free thought", and "open-mindedness". The Buddha
never advocated blind belief. The Buddhists of yore were always engaged in
argument and intellectual discussion, and the basis for their beliefs
were strict reasonings. They defeated many Brahmins in argument with the
result that the Brahmins would follow their teachings(or plot the deaths
of the Buddhists who defeated them.) The golden age of Buddhism saw
many Buddhist centres around India with debates held between the
Buddhists and Brahmins in which the Brahmins were annilated and
continued to be so until Shankaracharya, known as the "hidden Buddhist"
by his Buddhist opponents, turned the tide and took the Buddhists by
surprise using arguments from his new philosophy, Advaita Vedanta which
resembled Buddhism in many aspects. The Buddhists were not blind believers
in this or that and they were always open minded, so when defeated in
argument, they never plotted murders of their opponents like the Brahmins,
they accepted defeat and embraced their opponents teachings,
although it is reported that many burnt themselves when defeated.
This was one of the major causes of Buddhism's sudden
demise.
P.S. read my reply to Jaffer.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
gs...@cornell.edu (Gurupdesh Singh) wrote:
>In article <325B12...@cs.uiuc.edu>, re...@cs.uiuc.edu says...
>>
>>Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
>>>
>>> ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
>>> "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
>>> of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
>>> An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
>>> Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
>>> Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
>>> and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
>>> Buddists who resisted conversion.
>>
Uday Reddy
Rajah Skandarajah wrote:
> in the courts of Kings. But the largest attacks were
> those of 2 fanatic Hindu kings who pillaged and plundered Buddhist
> centres and yes, destroyed the Bodhi tree. But when you look at the
Rajah, Can you post some details of these kings? Who were they and what
did they do?
> dates of these attacks and the time of Shankaracharya who lived
> till he was only 32, you will know Gurpdesh does not know what he
> is talking about. BUT, even after Shankaracharya, and the attacks
> of the Hindu Kings, Buddhism still had a number of great universities
> in India and was holding on to its ground, until the barbaric Islamic
> invaders appeared on the scene. The islamic invaders were ruthless
> on their attacks against monks, and the last major Buddhist universities
> were destroyed including all surviving manuscripts. The Islamic
> invaders gave the final blow, and that was it for Buddhism in India.
> So Jaffer, don't give me that crap about "what was done to the Buddhists
> would be done to the Moslems", what the Moselm invaders did to the Buddhists
> is irrepairable.
All this is history as seen by the priests and monks. But, we must also
remember the sociological factors. The greatest attraction of Buddhism
was its egalitarianism. At that time, Hinduism constituted mainly Vedic
rituals and the Brahmins were the only ones entitled to perform them.
In fact, it appears that Vaishyas and Shudras were not supposed to even
*hear* the Vedas. So, evidently they could not have had any
participation in these rituals.
After the dawn of Buddhism, Hindus developed the Puranas, especially
Mahabharatha which was called the Fifth Veda. There were no
restrictions on who could hear it. Hinduism also developed popular
religious cults: Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Shakteya etc. which allowed
participation for the general population. Finally, Shankara's Advaita
philosophy debunked the Varna system and declared "Aham Brahmasmi,"
making everybody a part of the revolution. The bhakti movement, that
followed these developments, was actually led by lower caste devotees
and reduced the importance of ritual and Brahmanism. Vedas are still
recited by only Brahmins. But, nobody cares about them any more. In
fact, the Vedic Gods are subservient to the popular Gods like Krishna
and Shiva.
Thus, Hinduism succeeded by raising to the challenge, by cleansing
itself, and by becoming more egalitarian itself.
Or, maybe more accurately, we should say that the Vedic Brahmanism in
its old form died. A new religion called Hinduism developed by
combining some aspects of the Vedic religion and some of Buddhism. This
new religion eventually replaced Buddhism in India.
One cannot just look to the specific events (like winning of debates) to
understand why one won over the other. We need to look also at the
social processes.
Uday
Uday Reddy
Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
> I will gather some references over the break since I read
> about this some time ago. In the meanwhile, however,
> some food for thought:
Come on, Mr. Singh, you started this thread with blatant allegations.
Now that you are asked for evidence, you are not going to buckle under,
are you? I would expect that the library database of Cornell is
accessible from the comfort of your own terminal.
Regarding the "food for thought", I am sure you understand that history
is not produced from our own "thought." So, you will be agreeable to
postponing these speculations until you provide the evidence first.
Uday Reddy
>
> 1) Why would the majority of Indians (92%) who had lived
> in the relatively egalitarian society of Buddhist India
> for almost 1100 years, all of a sudden get up one
> morning and "voluntarily choose" Brahmanism under
> which their treatment is worse than that of dogs?
>
Melhulan
Mr. Reddy:
Mr. Singh and others have posted these articles on previous occasions.
Proof has now been presented to you, and is being REPEATED here on
behalf of Mr. Singh (see bottom of this mail)...
WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY now? Bolo bolo! Kiya bolto ho junaaab?
Rajwinder Singh.
From: ro...@crux4.cit.cornell.edu (Rohan Oberoi)
The following is for the negationists who have been trying to conceal
the record of the Bloody Sword of Hinduism in India.
The massacres and oppression perpetrated by Hindus out of religious
hatred for Buddhists in ancient times are a matter of the historical
record. Yet, for reasons best known to themselves, negationists like
Mr. Rajiv Varm
a have been trying to conceal the hideous, blood-stained record of
Hinduism.
The truth must be told.
After the enlightenment of Gautama, the Buddha, in 483 B.C. his message
and his teachings spread across the face of India and Asia.
Everywhere, they encountered hostility and religious persecution from
Hindu rulers and p
riests. The conversion of Ashoka, who ruled over much of India in the
third century B.C., did much to counter this. After Ashoka’s death,
however, the campaign of violence against Buddhists by Hindus began in
earnest.
The most important of the murderous Hindu bigots who carried out their
systematic campaign of violence against the peaceful followers of Lord
Buddha was Pushyamitra (184-48 B.C.), the founder of the Shunga
dynasty.
The Divyavadana (ed. Vaidya, 282) tells us that this king resolved to
annihilate the teachings of the Buddha. He destroyed stupas, burned
monasteries, and killed monks as far as Shakala, where he made the
infamous declar
ation: “Whosoever gives me the head of a Shramana, him I shall give a
hundred gold coins.”
The Aryamanjushrimulakalpa tells us that Pushyamitra “destroyed
monasteries with relics and killed monks of good conduct.” [Jayaswal,
18-19]. In his famous “History of Buddhism In India”, written in 1608
A.D. the celebra
ted Tibetan historian Lama Taranatha mentions the march of Pushyamitra
from Madhyadesha to Jalandhara. In the course of his campaigns, the
book states, Pushyamitra burned down numerous Buddhist monasteries and
killed a n
umber of learned monks The archaeological evidence for the ravages
wrought by Pushyamitra and other Hindu fanatic rulers on famous
Buddhist shrines is abundant.
Marshall [I.] records evidence of damage done to Buddhist
establishments at Takshashila. Goyal [430] notes that at Sanchi,
“there is all too clear evidence of damage wrought during the age of
Pushyamitra”. At Kaushambi,
he continues, there is also evidence of the destruction and burning of
the great monastery of Ghoshitarama in the second century B.C. The
culprit in this case was Toramana, a member of the same dynasty as the
Shaivite M
ihirakula who did “immense damage to the Buddhist shrines in Gandhara,
Punjab and Kashmir.”
Mihirakula is said to have razed 1600 viharas, stupas and monasteries,
and “put to death 900 Kotis, or lay adherents of Buddhism” [Joshi,
404].
As the revival of Brahmanical Hinduism progressed, atrocities against
Buddhists increased both in strength and in number. As Goyal [394]
notes, “According to many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one
of the major
causes of the decline of Buddhism in India.” The hatred poured out
against Buddhists in Hindu scriptures offers ample evidence of this.
To quote Goyal again [394-5]:
“Yajnavalkya (I. 271-72) declares that the very sight of a Buddhist
monk, even in dreams, is inauspicious”. The Brhannaradiya-purana lays
it down as a principal sin for a Brahmana to enter the house of a
Buddhist even in
times of great peril. The drama Mrchchhakatika shows that in Ujjain
the Buddhist monks were despised and their sight was considered
inauspicious. The Vishnupurana (XVIII 13-18) also regards the Buddha
as Mayamoha who ap
peared in the world to delude the demons. Kumarila is said to have
instigated King Sudhanvan of Ujjain to exterminate the Buddhists. ...
The Kerala-utpatti describes how he exterminated the Buddhists from
Kerala.”
The Chinese traveller Yuan Chwang (Huen Tsang), who visited India in
the seventh century records the oppressions of Shashanka, the king of
Gauda, who was a devotee of Shiva. Yuan Chwang’s account reads, “In
recent times
Shashanka, the enemy and oppressor of Buddhism, cut down the Bodhi
tree, destroyed its roots down to the water and burned what remained.”
[Watters II p.115] He also says that Shashanka tried “to have the
image (of Lord B
uddha at Bodhgaya) removed and replaced by one of Shiva”. Another
independent account of Shashanka’s oppressions is found in the
Aryamanjushrimulakalpa, which refers to Shashanka destroying “the
beautiful image of Buddha
” [Jayaswal, 49-50].
Another prominent seventh century murderer of Buddhists was Sudhanvan
of Ujjain, already mentioned in the quotation from Goyal above as
having been supposedly instigated by Kumarila Bhatt. Madhava Acharya,
in his “Sankar
a-digvijayam” of the fourteenth century A.D., records that Suddhanvan
“issued orders to put to death all the Buddhists from Ramesvaram to the
Himalayas”.
Even after the Islamic invasions of India, Hindu bigotry and hatred for
Buddhists was not subdued. According to Sharmasvamin, a Tibetan
pilgrim who visited Bihar three decaes after the invasion of
Bakhtiaruddin Khilji in
the 12th century, the biggest library at Nalanda was destroyed by
Hindu mendicants who took advantage of the chaos produced by the
invasion.
He says that “they (Hindus) performed a Yajna, a fire sacrifice, and
threw living embers and ashes from the sacrifice into the Buddhist
temples. This produced a great conflagration which consumed Ratnabodhi,
the nine-stor
eyed library of the Nalanda University”. [Prakash, 213].
Numerous destroyed Buddhist shrines were converted into Hindu temples
after their destruction. Ahir [58] notes that “The Seat of Buddha’s
Enlightenment was in the possession of a Hindu Mahant till 1952.
Similarly, at Kushinara, where the Buddha had entered into
Mahaparinirvana, the cremation stupa had been converted into a Hindu
temple, and on top of it stood the temple of Rambhar Bhavani when
Cunningham discovered the s
ite in 1860-61. Among the shrines which still continue to be dedicated
to
Hindu gods mention may be made of the Caityas of Chezrala and Ter in
Andhra Pradesh which are now Shiva and Vishnu temples respectively.
The temple of Madhava at Sal Kusa, opposite Gauhati in Asam, was once a
sacred shri
ne of the Buddhists. ... And the famous Jagannatha temple at Puri in
Orissa was also originally a Buddhist shrine. Similarly, the
Vishnupada temple at Gaya was also once a Buddhist shrine.” As
Rajendralal Mitra notes i
n his famous work of 1878 [quoted in Ahir, 59] the feet of Buddha at
Gaya were rechristened the feet of Vishnu and held as the most sacred
object of worship in the new Vishnupada temple.
Hinduism’s record of violence and bigotry against the peaceful
followers of Lord Buddha is unparalleled. I trust this marshalling of
the available evidence for the benefit of readers who may not have had
access to it wil
l impel negationists like Varma to accept and apologise for the crimes
committed in the name of Hinduism.
After hundreds of years of conflict the Brahmans took complete control
of the system. They owned the people and the lands. This era of
absolute Brahaman control is the darkest era of Hinduism. Many Hindus
and other rebel
led against the Brahamin injustices meeted out to the people.
ARTICLES BY MOIN-A
Buddhism challenges Hinduism in the IVC:
Around the 5th century B.C Buddhism took root in the subcontinent.
Suddharta (Gautam Buddh) rejected the caste system, the Hindu writings
and the absolute power of the Brahmans. Around 468 B.C. Jainism and
Buddhism appear
ed on the scene. Both Buddhism and Jainism competed with the tenants of
Hinduism.
Buddhist-Hindu wars claimed many lives. The Muyara and the Gupta
dynasties are chronologies of this time period. Many Zorastrian, Hindu
and other kings converted to Buddhism and spread it to the four corners
of the subcon
tinent and beyond.
“If you can’t win ‘em join ‘em”. Gautam Buddha was such a dynamic sage,
that after his death, many enlightened Hindus have adopted him as a
God. Even some Muslims consider him a prophet.
Buddhism is different from Hinduism. Though many Hindus later regard
Buddha as God, the Brahmans were always leery of Buddhists because
Buddhist teachings reduced the power of the Brahmins. Buddhism is
fundamentally diff
erent than Hinduism because it does not believe in the caste system.
Because of the lack of the caste system, the Brahmans did not like
Buddhists.
This is what Suresh says:
‘Except for brief period after Ashoka’s time, it(Buddhism) had always
been associated with violence(wars) and nationalism. Always in
rebellion against Hinduism.” Horrific examples from Southeast Asia in
general (where the
majority of Buddhists practice the same form of Buddhism as in Sri
Lanka), attest to this belief: Cambodia, Vietnam, Burma, Thailand and
Japan(Buddhist-Zen beliefs). Especially in Thailand which had its
share of Buddhis
t influence from the Sinhala-Buddhist clergy, Thai clergy gets involved
in politics and its public positions have nationalistic overtones.THE
MACEDONIAN “GREEK” INFLUENCE ON BUDDHISM AND BACTERIAN COLONIES
One of the few direct results of the Macedonian “Greek” invasions of
India was the establishment of Macedonian “Greek” colonies in “India”.
One of Asokas edicts refers to the existence of Yavana (“Greek”)
settlers on the
fringes of his empire. We now know that he was referring to the area
of Hunza. Actually after the fall of the Muyeria (“Greek”) kingdoms in
India, the Bacterians formed a number of Greek kingdoms in the area in
and aroun
d Kashmir. In fact Chandragupta actually faced Alexander for military
help (324-300 BC) but did not secure it. On the eve of Alexander’s
invasion, Kashmir was called Abhisara. Abhisara consisted of the
districts of Punch
and Naushara.
THE MUYARAS, JAINISM AND THE SPREAD OF BUDDIHISM in the IVC
The foundation of the Maurya empire in the brought a new dimension to
“India”. Chandragupta Muyara was a Jain. One of the most brutal
massacres of Hindus occurred at the hands of the Muyara kings, Asoka,
during the battl
e of Kalinga. Some historians put the number at 300,000 (akin to 3
million in present day numbers). Contrary to BJP belief, all massacres
in India were not committed by Muslims, Persians and Arabs. According
to the record
s of Hieun Tsang and Kalhana’s Rajaatarangini, Asoka the great
repented, converted to Buddhism (273-232 BC) and did a lot for
Buddhism. Asoka renounced violence, and renounced his religion after
the Kalinga war, and he
became a Buddhist. During Asoka, Buddhism had become the state
religion. The Brahmans did not like him, and many historians think the
Brahaman opposition to Asoka led to the destruction of the Muyarian
dynasty.
THE BACTERIANS INVADE THE INDUS VALLEY & BUDDHISM REPLACES
ZORASTRIANISM
With political disunity in the subcontinent, many foreigners invaded
India. Alexander's kingdom was divided. The Bacterians invaded India
(250 BC).
One of the Greek influences was the enshrinement of the father of
Buddhism in a statue and his elevation to the status of God. Later,
Buddhism split up into Mahayana and Hanayana sects. Mahayana was
exported to the orient
, while Hanayana pretty much shrunk to an unceremonial non-existance in
India (though it still sruvives in, Sri Lanka, and Tibet, and also in
Laos and Kampuchia)
While Buddhism was flourishing in “India”, Cunfuciansim was being
preached in China, and Zorastrianism was being preached in Persia.
The Sassandis were in power in Persia and were in a constant state of
war . The Sassan
ids were under Ardeshir who was an ardent supporter of Zorastrianism.
He enforced Zorastrianism on all of Persia. Much much later in the
sevent century the defeat of the Sassanides in Persia led to the
expulsion of Parsis
to India in the seventh century.
THE KUSHANS THE BUDDHIST EMPIRE OF IVC AND AFGHANISTAN
Many different races invaded the IVC and made it their home. From the
ashes of the Muyara empire, rose the Kushan dynasty. Kanishka the
conqueror rose to power (78 AD) and began a new Buddhist era in India.
He annexed the
Indus Valley and conquered Kashmir. He set up his head quarters in
Purushapura (Peshawar in present day Pakistan). Throughout a long
duration in Indian history, the largest repositories of books were the
Buddhist univers
ities. In fact many non-Buddhist scholars had studied under Buddhist
teachers.
In Glimpses of World History Jawahrlal Nehru says the following about
the Kushans (emphasis is mine and not Nehru’s):
“ This Kushan Empire is interesting in many ways. IT WAS A BUDDHIST
EMPIRE, and one of its famous rulers-the Emperor Kanishka-was ardently
devoted to the dharma...the Kushans were Mongolians or closely allied
to them. Fr
om the Kushan capital there must have been a continuous coming and
going to the Mongolian homelands, and Buddhist learning and Buddhist
culture must have gone to China and Mongolia...the Kushan Empire sat
like a colossus
astride the back of Asia, in between the Greaco-Roman world in the
south. It was a halfway house both between India, and Rome, and India
and China. The Kushan period corresponded with the last days of the
Roman Republic
when Julius Ceaser was alive, and first 200 years of the Roman Empire
Kanishka was originally a Zorastrian. His coins display the sun god.
Later in life he supported Buddhism (to the ire of the Hindu Brahmans).
Kanishka had convened the Buddhist Council to spread Buddhism instead
of Hindui
sm in the subcontinent (much to the disgust of the Brahmans ). During
Asoka, Buddhism had become the state religion. Hinduism survived only
due to Indian princes like Gautamiputra Satkarni.
Jawahalal Nehru in his book Glimpses of World History says:
“the Kushans themselves had followed Indo-Aryan traditions to a large
extent. This was indeed the reason why they manged to stay in India and
rule over large parts of it for a long time. They wanted to behave as
Indo Ary
ans, and wanted the people of the country to forget that they were
aleins. They succeeded in some measure, but not quite, for among the
Kashatrayas especially the feeling rankled that aliens wer ruling over
them. They cha
fed under this foreign rule, and so the ferment grew and peoples minds
were troubled. Ultimately these disaffected people found a capable
leader, and under his banner they started a “holy war” as it is called
to free Arya
varta. This leader was called Chandragupta. (Nto be confused wiith the
other Chandragupta, the grandfather of the Mauryan dynesty...this
happened 534 years after Asokas death)”
THE GUPTAS AND THE REVIVAL OF HINDUISM, END OF BUDDHISM IN THE IVC
With the fall of the Muyara and the Kushan dynasty, the Guptas came to
power (beginning of the fourth century AD) with their independent
kingdoms. Dr. R.C. Majumdar writes that The empire of Samudragupta
included the who
le of Northern India. The Gupta period saw the distinct revival of
Hinduism in the subcontinent. Buddhism declined, and never did rise in
India.
THE HINDU KASHATRIYA HINDU AND BUDDHIST WARS
Jawarhalal Nehru in his book Glimpses of World History says (Page 103
and 104) “Chandragupta proclaimed his holy war “against all foreign
rulers in India. The Kashatriyas and the Aryan aristocracy, deprived of
their powe
r and positions by the aliens (Kushans), were at the back of this war.
After a dozen or so years of fighting, Chandragupta managed to gain
control over Northern India including what is now called UP. He then
crowned himse
lf king of kings. Thus began the Gupta dynasty. It was a period of
somewhat agressive Hinduism and nationalism. The foreign rulers-the
Turkis and Parathions and other Non-Aryans were rooted our and forcibly
removed. We th
us find racial antagonism at work. The Indo-Aryan aritrocrat was proud
of his race and looked down upon these barbarians and malachas.
Indo-Aryan States and rulers were conquered by the Guptas were dealt
with leniently, B
ut there was not leniency for non-Aryans.
Chandragupta’s son Samadugupta was an even more agressive fighter than
his father....the Kushans were pushed back across the
Indus........Samadugupta’s son, Chandragupta II was also a warrior
king, and he conquered Kathi
wad and Gujrat, which had been under the rule of a Saka or Turki
dynasty for a long time. He took the name Vikramaditya.....The Gupta
period was a period of Hindu imperialism in India. There was a great
revival of old Ary
an culture and Sanskrit learning. The Hellenistic, or Greek and
Mongolian elements in Indian life and culture which had been brought by
the Greeks, Kushans and others were not encouraged, and were in fact
deliberately sup
erseded by laying stress on the Indo-Aryan traditions. Sanskrit was the
official court language. But EVEN IN THOSE DAYS SANSKRIT WAS NOT THE
COMMON LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE. The spoken language was a form of
Prakrit....Kali
dasa belonged to this period ................ Samadragupta changed the
capital of his empire from Pataliputra (Peshawar) to Ayodhia. Perhaps
he felt that Ayodhiya offered a more suitable outlook--with its story
of Ramacha
ndra immortalized in Valmikis epic.
HINDU BUDDHIST CONFLICT
The Gupta revival of Aryanism and Hinduism was naturally not very
favorably inclined towards Buddhism. This was partly because this
movement was aristocratic, with the Kashatriya chiefs backing it, and
Buddhism had more d
emocracy in it; partly because the Mahayana form of Buddhism was
closely associated with the Kushans and other alien rulers of northern
India....but Buddhism declined in India...Chandragupta the first was a
contemporary
of Constantine the great, the Roman Emperor who founded
Constantinople. “
HINDU IMPERIALISM SAILS TO THE FAR EAST AND DESTROYS THE MALAY
CIVILIZATION
The years of ANO DOMINI saw the beginning of Hindu imperialism outside
India. Just like the Ferocious Aryans destroyed the IVC, these Hindu
invaders destroyed the 2500 year old civilization of the Malay
peninsula and impo
sed a foreign culture upon the peace loving people of the far east.
Local temples were destroyed, people were enslaved, and the local
language was abolished. Being polite, Jawahalal Nehru in the
understatement of the cent
ury writes in his book Glimpses of World History says:
“These colonizing excursions started in the first century after Christ
and they continued for a hundred years. All over Malay and Java and
Sumatra and Cambodia and Borneo they went, and established and took
Indian cultur
e with them.....In Burma and Siam and Indo-China there were large
Indian colonies. Many times even of the names they gave to their new
towns and settlements were borrowed from India-Ayodhia, Hastinapur,
Taxila, Gandhara..
No doubt Indian colonialists misbehaved wherever they went, as all
such colonialists do. They must have exploited the people islands and
lorded it over them....Hindu States and empires were established in
these eastern i
slands, and then Buddhist rulers came, and between the Hindu and the
Buddhist there was a tussle for mastery. It is a long and
..story.........mighty ruins still tell us of the great buildings and
temples .....there were
great cities...Kamboja, Sri Vijay, Angkor ...”
During this time Fa-hien visited India to study Buddhism (399 AD) and
found “gaya wa waste and desolate”. He gives a detailed account of
Buddhist persecution by the Brahman Aryans.
THE ARYAN HUNS INVADE THE IVC. SUN WORSHIPPING and MAHAYANA BUDDHISM
PROSECUTED
With the decline of the Guptas, the nomadic tribes of Central Asia
called the Huns invaded India. Their leader was Tormana (500 AD).
Jawaharlal Nehru in his book Glimpses of World History says:
“Skandagupta, the fith of the Gupta line had to face this Hun
invasion...gradually they spread all over Gandhara and the greater part
of Northern India. THEY TORTURED THE BUDDHISTS AND COMMITTED ALL MANNER
OF FRIGHTFULNE
SS”....There must have been continuous warfare against them, but the
Guptas could not drive them away. Fresh waves of Huns came ...”
‘...Torman installed himself king . He was bad enough, but after him
came his son Miharagula, who was an unmitagated savage and fiendishly
cruel. Lalhana in his history of Kashmir--the Rajatrangini--tells us
that one of h
is Miharagula’s amusements was to have elephants thrown over the great
precipices into the valley below”.
The treatment of men was sometimes worse then that of animals (some of
the animals like cows were actually revered because they were Gods).
Lower caste Hindus had a misrable life. Other historians have commented
that the
treatment of women was even worse, specially women of lower castes,
they were considered the “property” of the upper caste Hindus, to be
molested and/or raped at will. In many cases the new bride had to stay
a night with
the village Brahman before she was married off. Kashmir converted to
Islam during this time period. It was cruelty like this that led to the
whole sale conversion to Islam. The new religion offered them equality
and save
d them from the Brahmans.
Jawaharlal Nehru says, “Soon however the Hun power weakened in India...
the Huns have been defeated and driven back, but many remain in odd
corners. The Great Gupta dynasty fades away after Balditya.
HUNS DEFEATED. HARSHA VARDHANA TRIES TO REVIVE BUDDHISM in the IVC
The Huns killed the Raja of Kanauj and made his wife Rajashiri a
prisoner. Thereupon Rajashiri’s brother Raja came to fight the Huns and
bacme an emperor (606-647 AD). The Chinese traveler Hiuen Tsang visited
India at thi
s time, he gives a very harsh account of the conditions of India, and
writes extensively of the persucution of Buddhists. Harshas ancestors
were sun worshippers, however he was also attracted towards the
Mahayana form of
Buddhism. The Brahmans were very displeased with him and even conspired
to kill him. Harsha spent time and money on arts and literature, and
drama, and was probably the last great Buddhist emperor of India. He
extensivle
wrote of the atrocities committed by the Hindus against the Buddhists
in India.
Jawahalal Nehru in his book Glimpses of World History says “ Harsha was
a keen Buddhist. Buddhism as a separate faith, had weakened greatly in
India, ...he was a pious Buddhist, and he came to visit the sacred
places of B
uddhism and to take with him the scriptures of the faith .”
THE ARYAN RAJPUT INVASION into the IVC
The death of Harsha ushered in an era of anarchy again. The Rajputs
were the invaders this time. This era is called the Rajput era.
According to Tod, the Rajputs were the descendants of Sakas, Huns,
Ushans, Gujaaras etc.
According to Rajatarangini of Kalhana which forms a major source of our
history, Duralabhavardhana founded a new royal dynasty about the middle
of the 7th century. Lalitaditya ascended the thorne in 724 AD and he
conquer
ed large areas of India and brought it under Kashmiri rule. After him
(750 AD) the power of Kashmir receded.
Jiyapida, the grandson of Lalitaditya tried to revive the reputation of
the Karkota dynasty. The Karkota dynasty was replaced by the Utpala
dynasty about the middle of the 9th century. The Rajputs were true
Hindus and pa
tronized Hindu religion and culture in all of India.
Uday Reddy
Melhulan wrote:
>
> Mr. Reddy:
>
> Mr. Singh and others have posted these articles on previous occasions.
>
> Proof has now been presented to you, and is being REPEATED here on
> behalf of Mr. Singh (see bottom of this mail)...
>
> WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY now? Bolo bolo! Kiya bolto ho junaaab?
Boy, that was voluminous! But, it doesn't prove what Gurupdesh Singh
was claiming. A search for "Sankaracharya" failed.
Nevertheless, thanks. I will have to study it. I was hoping though,
that Gurupdeshji would use his Cornell erudition to produce some
authentic history books that I could read and research from.
Uday Reddy
Melhulan
Mr. Reddy: The demise of Buddhism in India was direct result of
vigorous, relentless and agressive persecution by Brahaminsm that felt
very threatened by the message of equality spelt out by Gautam Buddh.
The very fact that Buddhism flourishes in ALL countries around India
iteself, especially in the Far East is testemonial to the fact that
some extraordinary events must have happened in the birthplace of
Buddhism ---India.
Obviously you have grown up on the rendering of history doled out in
school text books. Here is the information you requested which has been
copied from the net.
>Well, I certainly hope the source of Gurupedeshji's historical
knowledge
>is not YOU!
>
>Uday Reddy
Please be sure to read the BOOK ENTITLED GLIMPSES OF WORLD HISTORY. The
author is an Indian...you may know him...Jawhar Lal Nehru the father of
Indira Gandhi and the grandfather of Rajiv Gandhi
I am pleased to provide you with references that you have requested.
Many of these articles are or have been posted on
soc.culture.pakistan.HISTORY and also on SCP and SCI
Articles on Indus Valley Civilization by MoinA
Buddhism challenges Hinduism in the IVC:
Around the 5th century B.C Buddhism took root in the subcontinent.
Suddharta (Gautam Buddh) rejected the caste system, the Hindu writings
and the absol
ute power of the Brahmans. Around 468 B.C. Jainism and Buddhism
appeared on the scene. Both Buddhism and Jainism competed with the
tenants of Hinduism.
Buddhist-Hindu wars claimed many lives. The Muyara and the Gupta
dynasties are chronologies of this time period. Many Zorastrian, Hindu
and other kings
converted to Buddhism and spread it to the four corners of the
subcontinent and beyond.
“If you can’t win ‘em join ‘em”. Gautam Buddha was such a dynamic sage,
that after his death, many enlightened Hindus have adopted him as a
God. Even s
ome Muslims consider him a prophet.
Buddhism is different from Hinduism. Though many Hindus later regard
Buddha as God, the Brahmans were always leery of Buddhists because
Buddhist teach
ings reduced the power of the Brahmins. Buddhism is fundamentally
different than Hinduism because it does not believe in the caste
system. Because of t
he lack of the caste system, the Brahmans did not like Buddhists.
This is what Suresh says:
‘Except for brief period after Ashoka’s time, it(Buddhism) had always
been associated with violence(wars) and nationalism. Always in
rebellion against
Hinduism.” Horrific examples from Southeast Asia in general (where the
majority of Buddhists practice the same form of Buddhism as in Sri
Lanka), attes
t to this belief: Cambodia, Vietnam, Burma, Thailand and
Japan(Buddhist-Zen beliefs). Especially in Thailand which had its
share of Buddhist influence
from the Sinhala-Buddhist clergy, Thai clergy gets involved in
politics and its public positions have nationalistic overtones.
THE BACTERIANS INVADE THE INDUS VALLEY & BUDDHISM REPLACES
ZORASTRIANISM
With political disunity in the subcontinent, many foreigners invaded
India. Alexander's kingdom was divided. The Bacterians invaded India
(250 BC).
One of the Greek influences was the enshrinement of the father of
Buddhism in a statue and his elevation to the status of God. Later,
Buddhism split up
into Mahayana and Hanayana sects. Mahayana was exported to the orient,
while Hanayana pretty much shrunk to an unceremonial non-existance in
India (th
ough it still sruvives in, Sri Lanka, and Tibet, and also in Laos and
Kampuchia)
While Buddhism was flourishing in “India”, Cunfuciansim was being
preached in China, and Zorastrianism was being preached in Persia.
The Sassandis we
re in power in Persia and were in a constant state of war . The
Sassanids were under Ardeshir who was an ardent supporter of
Zorastrianism. He enforced
Zorastrianism on all of Persia. Much much later in the sevent century
the defeat of the Sassanides in Persia led to the expulsion of Parsis
to India i
n the seventh century.
THE KUSHANS THE BUDDHIST EMPIRE OF IVC AND AFGHANISTAN
Many different races invaded the IVC and made it their home. From the
ashes of the Muyara empire, rose the Kushan dynasty. Kanishka the
conqueror rose
to power (78 AD) and began a new Buddhist era in India. He annexed the
Indus Valley and conquered Kashmir. He set up his head quarters in
Purushapura (
Peshawar in present day Pakistan). Throughout a long duration in Indian
history, the largest repositories of books were the Buddhist
universities. In f
act many non-Buddhist scholars had studied under Buddhist teachers.
In Glimpses of World History Jawahrlal Nehru says the following about
the Kushans (emphasis is mine and not Nehru’s):
“ This Kushan Empire is interesting in many ways. IT WAS A BUDDHIST
EMPIRE, and one of its famous rulers-the Emperor Kanishka-was ardently
devoted to
the dharma...the Kushans were Mongolians or closely allied to them.
From the Kushan capital there must have been a continuous coming and
going to the M
ongolian homelands, and Buddhist learning and Buddhist culture must
have gone to China and Mongolia...the Kushan Empire sat like a colossus
astride the
back of Asia, in between the Greaco-Roman world in the south. It was a
halfway house both between India, and Rome, and India and China. The
Kushan per
iod corresponded with the last days of the Roman Republic when Julius
Ceaser was alive, and first 200 years of the Roman Empire
Kanishka was originally a Zorastrian. His coins display the sun god.
Later in life he supported Buddhism (to the ire of the Hindu Brahmans).
Kanishka h
ad convened the Buddhist Council to spread Buddhism instead of
Hinduism in the subcontinent (much to the disgust of the Brahmans ).
During Asoka, Budd
hism had become the state religion. Hinduism survived only due to
Indian princes like Gautamiputra Satkarni.
Jawahalal Nehru in his book Glimpses of World History says:
“the Kushans themselves had followed Indo-Aryan traditions to a large
extent. This was indeed the reason why they manged to stay in India and
rule ove
r large parts of it for a long time. They wanted to behave as Indo
Aryans, and wanted the people of the country to forget that they were
aleins. They s
ucceeded in some measure, but not quite, for among the Kashatrayas
especially the feeling rankled that aliens wer ruling over them. They
chafed under t
his foreign rule, and so the ferment grew and peoples minds were
troubled. Ultimately these disaffected people found a capable leader,
and under his ba
nner they started a “holy war” as it is called to free Aryavarta. This
leader was called Chandragupta. (Nto be confused wiith the other
Chandragupta,
the grandfather of the Mauryan dynesty...this happened 534 years after
Asokas death)”
THE GUPTAS AND THE REVIVAL OF HINDUISM, END OF BUDDHISM IN THE IVC
With the fall of the Muyara and the Kushan dynasty, the Guptas came to
power (beginning of the fourth century AD) with their independent
kingdoms. Dr.
R.C. Majumdar writes that The empire of Samudragupta included the
whole of Northern India. The Gupta period saw the distinct revival of
Hinduism in th
e subcontinent. Buddhism declined, and never did rise in India.
THE HINDU KASHATRIYA HINDU AND BUDDHIST WARS
Jawarhalal Nehru in his book Glimpses of World History says (Page 103
and 104) “Chandragupta proclaimed his holy war “against all foreign
rulers in In
dia. The Kashatriyas and the Aryan aristocracy, deprived of their power
and positions by the aliens (Kushans), were at the back of this war.
After a do
zen or so years of fighting, Chandragupta managed to gain control over
Northern India including what is now called UP. He then crowned himself
king of
kings. Thus began the Gupta dynasty. It was a period of somewhat
agressive Hinduism and nationalism. The foreign rulers-the Turkis and
Parathions and o
ther Non-Aryans were rooted our and forcibly removed. We thus find
racial antagonism at work. The Indo-Aryan aritrocrat was proud of his
race and looke
d down upon these barbarians and malachas. Indo-Aryan States and rulers
were conquered by the Guptas were dealt with leniently, But there was
not lenie
ncy for non-Aryans.
Chandragupta’s son Samadugupta was an even more agressive fighter than
his father....the Kushans were pushed back across the
Indus........Samadugupta’
s son, Chandragupta II was also a warrior king, and he conquered
Kathiwad and Gujrat, which had been under the rule of a Saka or Turki
dynasty for a lo
ng time. He took the name Vikramaditya.....The Gupta period was a
period of Hindu imperialism in India. There was a great revival of old
Aryan culture
and Sanskrit learning. The Hellenistic, or Greek and Mongolian elements
in Indian life and culture which had been brought by the Greeks,
Kushans and ot
hers were not encouraged, and were in fact deliberately superseded by
laying stress on the Indo-Aryan traditions. Sanskrit was the official
court langu
age. But EVEN IN THOSE DAYS SANSKRIT WAS NOT THE COMMON LANGUAGE OF THE
PEOPLE. The spoken language was a form of Prakrit....Kalidasa belonged
to this
period ................ Samadragupta changed the capital of his empire
from Pataliputra (Peshawar) to Ayodhia. Perhaps he felt that Ayodhiya
offered a
more suitable outlook--with its story of Ramachandra immortalized in
Valmikis epic.
HINDU BUDDHIST CONFLICT
The Gupta revival of Aryanism and Hinduism was naturally not very
favorably inclined towards Buddhism. This was partly because this
movement was aristo
cratic, with the Kashatriya chiefs backing it, and Buddhism had more
democracy in it; partly because the Mahayana form of Buddhism was
In <325C04...@cs.uiuc.edu> Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
>Jaffer wrote:
>> >
>> > Gurupdeshji, for somebody at Cornell, you have a pretty wild
>> > imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you
just
>> > dream it up last night?
>> >
>> > Uday Reddy
>>
Melhulan
Mr. Reddy:
I am sure the Cornell library has the book mentioned GLIMPSES OF WORLD
HISTORY by Jawahar Lal Nehru.
Nehru clearly lists Hindu (ACTUALLY Brahmin...I would like to make THAT
distinction) atrocities WITHIN India and list HINDU imperialistic
atrocities in the Far east (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia). Most other Far
Eastern books list the destruction of Buddhist temples by invading
Hindu armies.
The atrocities in KASMIR are especially important because they caused
GENERAL discontent with Brahmanism and the acceptance of Islam
Of course YOUR text books do not mention any of these so you continue
to belive that Brahmanism was a PEACEFUL cadre.
Buddhism DID NOT JUST VANISH from India, it DID NOT GET absorbed ito
Hinduism.....Buddhism was mercilessly HUNTED out of the
Subcontinent....Muslim fear the same and that led to the creation of
Pakistan (an area WHERE some Muslims could preserve Islam)
While you PONDER over the EVIDENCE, please accept HISTORICAL facts
insead of disputing them
In <325C97...@cs.uiuc.edu> Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
>Melhulan wrote:
>>
>> Mr. Reddy:
>>
>> Mr. Singh and others have posted these articles on previous
occasions.
>>
>> Proof has now been presented to you, and is being REPEATED here on
>> behalf of Mr. Singh (see bottom of this mail)...
>>
>> WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY now? Bolo bolo! Kiya bolto ho junaaab?
>
N. K. Agrawal
Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
>
> In article <325B12...@cs.uiuc.edu>, re...@cs.uiuc.edu says...
> >
> >Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
> >>
> >> ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
> >> "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
> >> of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
> >> An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
> >> Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
> >> Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
> >> and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
> >> Buddists who resisted conversion.
> >
> >imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
> >dream it up last night?
> >
> >Uday Reddy
Long time back I read a book titled "Nalanda" written by an historian (I am
forgetting the name). This book was like a novel and it presented facts related to
demise of great universities of Nalanda and VikramShila in (11th Century AD) which
were under the rule of the then Pataliputra king Govinda Pant. As per the book
these two universities and eventually all the traditions related with them were
destroyed by a Muslim invader. Three libraries with thousands of books were put on
fire in no time. Each and every soul including the highest monk present within the
premises was slaughtered quickly. King Govinda Pant and everybody at these
universities already knew about the advancing army of the invaders but they did
nothing millitarily to stop the attack. Instead, the priests were performing
Tantrik rituals to stop the attack with blessings from the king. This book also
gives an insight into how 'Tantra Vad' had engulfed Buddhism and Buddhist rulers
at that time which ultimately led to the destruction of Nalanda followed by
VikramShila and PataliPutra.
After such attacks, India was mostly ruled by the invaders and we all know what
they did.
Fabricating history and saying that Hindu brigades destroyed Buddhism does not
make any sense. If Hindus had to do this: why did they spare Jain religion?
Shankaracharya himself was opposed to Karmakanda or extreme ritualism (refer to
his debate with Mandan Mishra in Kashi). He or anybody else never ever organized
any Hindu brigades to force conversion.
According to what I have read or heard, following reasons led to the demise of
Buddhism:--
1) Weakened by attacks, Buddhist rulers were no longer able to provide financial
protection to Buddhist institutions.
2) "Bhikshu Pratha" (most of the people converting to Buddhism were turning into
Bhikshu or monks) could not sustain over the period.
3) Buddhist vihar, universities etc. were destroyed en-masse by muslim invaders
and all the monks present at the time were put to death.
Finally, only a shithead with extreme sadistic desire will fabricate history to
discredit a religion and write what Gurupdesh writes. Such people don't
achieve anything but do it to fulfill their sadistic desires and in the process
through shit on the running fan in their own living room.
Rajah Skandarajah
melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>Mr. Reddy:
>
>Buddhism DID NOT JUST VANISH from India, it DID NOT GET absorbed ito
>Hinduism.....Buddhism was mercilessly HUNTED out of the
>Subcontinent....Muslim fear the same and that led to the creation of
>Pakistan (an area WHERE some Muslims could preserve Islam)
>
>While you PONDER over the EVIDENCE, please accept HISTORICAL facts
>insead of disputing them
Mr Melhuan,
I suggest you read the history books written by Buddhists and
Far Eastern authors before commenting. Jawahar Lal Nehru was no
historian, and his book is not the only book on history.Brahmanism
was no peaceful Cadre, but Islamic invaders did far more to end
Buddhism(violently) than did Brahmanism. Furthermore, you overestimate
the size of Buddhist empires and the strength of Brahmins as an
overcoming power using violence. I suggest you get some REAL HISTORICAL
FACTS before commenting. And FYI, Buddhists today still acknowledge
the genius of Shankaracharya as the main cause for the Demise of
Buddhism.
Rajah.
Uday Reddy
I hope we are not seeing here another instance of the evasive tactics
that have become common practice in other threads. Gurupdesh Singh
explicitly claimed that Shankaracharya founded (directly or indirectly)
a cult of Shiv Sainiks who then went around "murdering, raping and
plundering" all Buddhists. (Those were his precise words.) I haven't
yet seen any support posted for these claims. These are very very
serious allegations against one of the topmost medieval Hindu preachers.
It is surprising that such serious allegations are being bandied about
so casually without any kind of support. It is simply not acceptable.
Coming to your specific remarks:
Melhulan wrote:
> I am sure the Cornell library has the book mentioned GLIMPSES OF WORLD
> HISTORY by Jawahar Lal Nehru.
As Rajah pointed out, Nehru is not a historian. The book in question is
a collection of letters Nehru wrote to his young daughter mostly from
prison where no authentic sources were available to him. I can't see
how anybody can take the contents of GWH as historical fact. GWH serves
mainly as an introduction to history for youngsters, and more seriously,
as a guide to understanding Nehru's mind and his policies. It is not
authentic history.
Please note: I am not (yet) disputing anything that is being claimed
here. I am simply asking for evidence.
> Most other Far
> Eastern books list the destruction of Buddhist temples by invading
> Hindu armies.
Please name one.
> The atrocities in KASMIR are especially important because they caused
> GENERAL discontent with Brahmanism and the acceptance of Islam
Please be specific. Which atrocities in Kashmir? (For your
information, Kashmir has not been Bhrahmanic for a long long time. It
was mainly Buddhist in early historic times, then Shaivite, and finally
Islamic. Their religious writings show a continuity of tradition
between the three phases. The tenets of each religion were adapted to
the successor. From what I know, all these conversions were peaceful.
My source: PN Bazaz, The History of Struggle for Freedom in Kashmir -
From the earliest times to the present day, New Delhi 1954.)
> Of course YOUR text books do not mention any of these so you continue
> to belive that Brahmanism was a PEACEFUL cadre.
I am not beleiving any such thing. I repeat: I am asking for evidence.
Please don't speculate about my beliefs.
> Buddhism DID NOT JUST VANISH from India, it DID NOT GET absorbed ito
> Hinduism.....Buddhism was mercilessly HUNTED out of the
> Subcontinent....Muslim fear the same and that led to the creation of
> Pakistan (an area WHERE some Muslims could preserve Islam)
I suppose you have some explanation for the disappearance of Buddhism
from Central Asia too?
Uday Rddy
Melhulan
Mr. Rajah:
REF: Islamic Time Machines
Islam destroyed Buddhism?!?!? Hmmmm! Buddha was born around 350 BC give
or take a few decades. Muhammad was born around 600 AD give or take a
few decades.......
Islam reached India around 1000-1200 AD give or take a few
decades....ignore the 710 AD invasion (sice it was merely a border
affair)
How many Islamic armies traveled BACKWARD through time to defeat
Buddhism and the Buddhist Kushan kingdoms? Did they HAVE time machines
then?
Obviously you do NOT believe Nehru, probably lied I guess (never know
about Indian prime ministers). YOU WANTED ME TO READ Buddhist books?
Which ones? I did quote FROM HINDU AND BUDDHIST BOOKS...I guess not the
ones YOU liked.
One CANNOT just read Indian TEXT BOOKS can we?
By the time Muslim reached India...the deed had ALREADY been done, very
few Buddhist survived...not only did the Brahmins destroy Buddhism in
India but the Southern Indian armies hounded and destroyed Buddhism in
Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam and Bali
In <53j95g$4...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca> Rajah Skandarajah
<ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> writes:
>
>melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>>Mr. Reddy:
>>
>>Buddhism DID NOT JUST VANISH from India, it DID NOT GET absorbed ito
>>Hinduism.....Buddhism was mercilessly HUNTED out of the
>>Subcontinent....Muslim fear the same and that led to the creation of
>>Pakistan (an area WHERE some Muslims could preserve Islam)
>>
Sanjay Veerabathina (CS)
On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Jaffer wrote:
> Uday Reddy wrote:
> >
> > Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
> > >
> > > However, 11 centuries later in the 7th century A.D., the crafty
> > > ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
> > > "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
> > > of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
> > > An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
> > > Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
> > > Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
> > > and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
> > > Buddists who resisted conversion.
> >
> > Gurupdeshji, for somebody at Cornell, you have a pretty wild
> > imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
> > dream it up last night?
> >
> > Uday Reddy
>
> Udayji,
>
> Actually Gurupdeshji is correct in his narrative of history - though it
> would be more palatable without the usual Hindi filmi melodrama. The
> destruction of Buddhism
This is rubbish . Even today the GOI if maintaining ancient Buddhist
temples. Can you give any proof of Hindus destroying Buddhism ?
is a historical fact as is the uprooting of the
> bodhi tree that the Buddha meditated under. The relegation of Indian
> Buddhism, amongst the survivors, as just one more form of Hinduism and
> Buddha being a mere manifestation of Krishna was to follow soon.
>
Melhulan
Sanjee jee:
Did you just wake up...and all you have read are INDIAN history TEXT
books
Proof has ALREADY been posted SEVERAL TIMES on sci, scp, scp.HISTORY,
scp.RELIGION etc. etc. etc.
Read Jawahar Lal Nehrus book..GLIMPSES OF WORLD HISTORY
GOI takes care of Buddhist temples THAT ARE LEFT...the entire country
had Buddhist temples...Buddhism and Buddhists were destroyed within
India and also by Indian armies in vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos
In <Pine.SOL.3.95.961010163805.27768B-100000@grad> "Sanjay Veerabathina
R....@erols.com
Uday Reddy wrote:
Conversions to Islam were far from peaceful. Prem Nath Bazaz is no historian.
You may get an idea of Islamic havoc in Kashmir by reading Tyndale Biscoe's Kashmir
In sunlight and shade or even Walter Lawrence in The valley of Kashmir. Of course,
I intend to continue on this thread under "Islamic Legacy" from the chronicles of
muslim historians. You may also get information on the history of Kashmir from
Jonraja's "Rajtarangni". As a quick reminder, Muslims butchered Hindus in Kashmir,
Tied them in two and threw them in Wular Lake. Forcibly circumcized them so much so
that Hindus had to deliberately disfigure their womenfolk to make them ugly and
escape Muslim harems. All the muslim mosques except the one at Hazratbal have been
built on hindu temples and under muslims, hindus had to pay the Zimmi tax and there
was even a law when any muslim could jump on the back of a Kashmiri Hindu in the street
and ride him like a Taxi for a mile. It was common for Muslims to put a couldron of
shit on Hindus head and then stone it to see who would break the vessel first and cover
the hapless Hindu in shit. More later...
> My source: PN Bazaz, The History of Struggle for Freedom in Kashmir -
> From the earliest times to the present day, New Delhi 1954.)
>
> > Of course YOUR text books do not mention any of these so you continue
> > to belive that Brahmanism was a PEACEFUL cadre.
>
> I am not beleiving any such thing. I repeat: I am asking for evidence.
> Please don't speculate about my beliefs.
>
> > Buddhism DID NOT JUST VANISH from India, it DID NOT GET absorbed ito
> > Hinduism.....Buddhism was mercilessly HUNTED out of the
> > Subcontinent....Muslim fear the same and that led to the creation of
> > Pakistan (an area WHERE some Muslims could preserve Islam)
>
Melhulan
Several pages of EVIDENCE has been posted.... you have not attemted to
answer ANY of the EVIDENCE. YOU said you were studying it...now you
come up with a juvenile claim that Nehrus narratives are BUNK.
Postings contained other authors also
Buddhism in CENTRAL ASIA???????The Kushan empire WAS destroyed by
Brahmins (see my postings)
Melhulan
In <325D44...@cs.uiuc.edu> Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> writes:
>
>I hope we are not seeing here another instance of the evasive tactics
>that have become common practice in other threads. Gurupdesh Singh
>explicitly claimed that Shankaracharya founded (directly or
indirectly)
>a cult of Shiv Sainiks who then went around "murdering, raping and
>plundering" all Buddhists. (Those were his precise words.) I haven't
>yet seen any support posted for these claims. These are very very
>serious allegations against one of the topmost medieval Hindu
preachers.
>It is surprising that such serious allegations are being bandied about
>so casually without any kind of support. It is simply not acceptable.
>
>Coming to your specific remarks:
>
Rajah Skandarajah
melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>Several pages of EVIDENCE has been posted.... you have not attemted to
>answer ANY of the EVIDENCE. YOU said you were studying it...now you
>come up with a juvenile claim that Nehrus narratives are BUNK.
>
>Postings contained other authors also
>
What Evidence???? THERE WERE NO REFERENCES MADE. Who the hell
is Suresh and MOIN-A? Are they International Scholars? For
I sure haven't heard of them and I know most of the scholars
and historians who dealt with Buddhism and its history.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>Mr. Rajah:
>
>REF: Islamic Time Machines
>
>
>Islam destroyed Buddhism?!?!? Hmmmm! Buddha was born around 350 BC give
>or take a few decades. Muhammad was born around 600 AD give or take a
>few decades.......
What do the dates of their births have to do with this? Are you
trying to say that after the Buddha died, there was no more
Buddhism? After Muhammad there was no Islam? Hmmmm, you
must be confused........
>Islam reached India around 1000-1200 AD give or take a few
>decades....ignore the 710 AD invasion (sice it was merely a border
>affair)
>How many Islamic armies traveled BACKWARD through time to defeat
>Buddhism and the Buddhist Kushan kingdoms? Did they HAVE time machines
>then?
When did I say that the Buddhist Kushan Kingdoms were destroyed by
Islamic invaders?
>Obviously you do NOT believe Nehru, probably lied I guess (never know
>about Indian prime ministers). YOU WANTED ME TO READ Buddhist books?
>Which ones? I did quote FROM HINDU AND BUDDHIST BOOKS...I guess not the
>ones YOU liked.
>One CANNOT just read Indian TEXT BOOKS can we?
Give me the names and authors of the books from which you received
such information, and if the authors' names sound islamic, don't
bother. I never referred to any info from Indian text books.
>By the time Muslim reached India...the deed had ALREADY been done, very
>few Buddhist survived...not only did the Brahmins destroy Buddhism in
>India but the Southern Indian armies hounded and destroyed Buddhism in
>Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam and Bali
Nope, the deed was not done yet, and not "very few" Buddhists survived.
Before the invasion by the "Barbarians", Buddhist universities still
existed in India, and this was after the Brahmins accepted the Buddha
as an incarnation of Vishnu, so Buddhism had little to fear at the
time from Brahmins. The last Buddhist universities were destroyed
relentlessly by the "Barbarians", and the Buddhist monks were ruthlessly
killed. THAT was the final blow!!! The Islamic Invaders dealt the
final blow to an already beaten up religion.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>Sanjee jee:
>
>Did you just wake up...and all you have read are INDIAN history TEXT
>books
>
>Proof has ALREADY been posted SEVERAL TIMES on sci, scp, scp.HISTORY,
>scp.RELIGION etc. etc. etc.
>
>Read Jawahar Lal Nehrus book..GLIMPSES OF WORLD HISTORY
Jawahar Lal Nehru was no historian, and his book is not read
by even the most least famous of Buddhist scholars. Melhulan,
I am not denying what the Brahmins did, in fact, I can't stand
the sight of Brahmins who still practice their castist attitudes,
but don't try to conceal the Islamic Invaders' "Death Blow"
to Buddhism.
Rajah.
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <53jvm0$g...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu
says...
This is historically impossible because the politically
the Islamic period starts in the 10th century A.D. Buddhism
had been destroyed by Brahmin zealots teaming up with the
Hun invaders from the 7-8th century (e.g. Tomara, Mahirigula).
Also provide references that Buddhism was destroyed in India
by Muslim invaders? I dont know if even pro-Brahmin
"historians" found at institutions such as Hindu Benaras
University would have the audacity to "bend" history
to this extent to serve the OC's historical agenda!
Melhulan
Okay, you descredited Nehru and ALL the other historians.....while YOU
have not presented ANY proof that the atrocities have NOT taken place
We have presented names, dates, and history books...you have done none
of the above
You have just given us rhetoric. to make this a maningful discussion,
YOU need to do some research, WE HAVE
Islam was MUCH later entrant to the Subcontinent, and the Kushan
Buddhist empire had already been destroyed by samgupta and
others...READ the article
In <53k0cj$g...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca> Rajah Skandarajah
Melhulan
THIS discussionis about Buddhism and no matter how much you try ot
bring IN Islam the fact remains that Islam entered the Subcontinetn
around 1000-1200 AD while the Kusahn empire ws destroyed by the
Brahmanic rule several hundred years BEFORE Islam
Let us stick to Buddhism here and you CAN start another thred on Islam
later
In <325D93...@erols.com> R....@erols.com writes:
Harjinder
Uday Reddy (re...@cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
:
: Gurupdeshji, for somebody at Cornell, you have a pretty wild
: imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
: dream it up last night?
:
: Uday Reddy
Uday you sound like a total idiot - refute Gurupdesh's arguments, or just
sit and learn.
Harjinder
lture.pakistan.religion,soc.culture.pakistan.politics
Gurupdesh Singh (gs...@cornell.edu) wrote:
:
: Now its your turn to do some homework. Can you
: provide references supporting your claim that
: "Buddhists acknowledged the genius of Shankracharya"?
:
: This idiotic claim would be like arguing that "Jews
: acknowledged that genius of Hitler".
:
Or that Jews acknowledged the genius of Christ
bwahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhah....
Gurupdesh, you are arguing with idiots, wish you well :)
Harjinder
Rajah Skandarajah (ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
: I was not going to reply to Gurpdesh's thread on the Demise of Buddhism,
: but when I read your article Jaffer, as a Buddhist, I felt I had to.
: Shankaracharya was the main cause of the demise of Buddhism, but
: he never did it as was described by Gurupdesh. After studying the
: Vedas and propounding his new philosophy of Advaita Vedanta, Shankaracharya
: travelled to the major Buddhist centres around India and defeated the
: major Buddhist scholars in argument. As a result, many Buddhists burnt
If Shankabcdefghi defeated your Budhists leaders in argument, the why the
%^$& are you still a budhist and not a follower of Shankabcdef...?
R.A.M
Melhulan wrote:
>
> THIS discussionis about Buddhism and no matter how much you try ot
> bring IN Islam the fact remains that Islam entered the Subcontinetn
> around 1000-1200 AD while the Kusahn empire ws destroyed by the
> Brahmanic rule several hundred years BEFORE Islam
Islamic invaders came to sub-continent in 711 AD. They destroyed Buddist
vihars not Hindus. Even before the invasion of Mahmud Gazni, there used
to be a buddist temple in the main street of Multan that Muslims
worshipped as savior. The reason: Multan used to be in constant attack
from neighboring Hindu Kingdoms and everytime the Hindu invaders came,
muslims would run to the temple, get out the Buddha idol and threaten to
destroy it. This made the invaders retreat and spare the town. This
should give you the idea how Hindus thought of Buddhism. Only when Mahmud
subdued the Hindu kingdoms and the threat permenantly receded, was this
temple eventually destroyed. Kashmir still has remains of Buddist temples
destroyed by muslims.
R.A.M
Ummm. Looks like Sardars ganging up together and led by that clean shaven sikh-Rohan Oberoi.
And it is not even high noon yet!
Rajah Skandarajah
gs...@cornell.edu (Gurupdesh Singh) wrote:
>Now its your turn to do some homework. Can you
>provide references supporting your claim that
>"Buddhists acknowledged the genius of Shankracharya"?
>
I can definitely post references, but I hope you
did not mistake the context of the word "genius".
What I meant by "genius" is that he was extremely
intelligent and undefeatable in debate even if
he was wrong on certain issues. The Buddhists
believe that Shankaracharya using word juggelry
etc. created his own philosophy from the
Vedas. They also believe that the Buddhist doctrine
is superior to Advaita Vedanta,but Shankaracharya
could not be defeated simply because he was so
smart. Buddhists in no way acknowledge that
Advaita Vedanta was superior to Buddhist doctrine,
NO WAY!!!!!
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
gs...@cornell.edu (Gurupdesh Singh) wrote:
>You claimed earlier that Islam destroyed Buddhism in India.
>This is historically impossible because the politically
>the Islamic period starts in the 10th century A.D. Buddhism
>had been destroyed by Brahmin zealots teaming up with the
>Hun invaders from the 7-8th century (e.g. Tomara, Mahirigula).
Nope. The Hindu Kings did severe damage to Buddhism, but
great Buddhist universities still existed after their
onslaught. The last universities were destroyed by
Islamic invaders.
>Also provide references that Buddhism was destroyed in India
>by Muslim invaders? I dont know if even pro-Brahmin
>"historians" found at institutions such as Hindu Benaras
>University would have the audacity to "bend" history
>to this extent to serve the OC's historical agenda!
I am in no way and will never be at service of
the OC's historical agenda, and yes I can provide
references, but get something into your head first:
The fanatic Hindu Kings did severe damage to Buddhism(although
some of what you said in your articles are BS), but
Buddhism was able to survive in India.
Buddhist universites opened even after that
and by 10th century AD , the Buddha was already regarded
as an incarnation of Vishnu, so the Buddhists had not much
to fear from the Brahmins. Then came the final blow from
the Islamic invaders who destroyed ALL the universites
and Buddhist monks. So, now you tell me: Who destroyed
Buddhism in India?
Rajah.
Uday Reddy
Melhulan wrote:
>
> Several pages of EVIDENCE has been posted.... you have not attemted to
> answer ANY of the EVIDENCE. YOU said you were studying it...now you
> come up with a juvenile claim that Nehrus narratives are BUNK.
Melhulan, I thought you were more intelligent than that.
- Firstly, a claim about Shankaracharya's promotion of murder, rape and
plunder. NO EVIDENCE has been posted to support that. Did you read
what I wrote?
- Secondly, I have not made any claims here whatsoever. I don't have
to "answer" to anything. Somebody made a claim and I asked for
evidence. That evidence has not appeared. That is where the situation
stands.
There is no point in all this fist-fighting that is going on this
thread. Please post the evidence for the claim about Shankaracharya,
if you can. If not, let Gurupdesh Singh do his homework.
Uday Reddy
Rajah Skandarajah
4h...@qlink.queensu.ca (Harjinder) wrote:
>If Shankabcdefghi defeated your Budhists leaders in argument, the why the
>%^$& are you still a budhist and not a follower of Shankabcdef...?
You idiot, I suggest you read some history before commenting, and
learn to spell. People can be great at debating, but that does
not mean that what they argue is right. After all, did you
see the Presidential debate between Bill Clinton and Bob Dole?
Watch and learn!!!!
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>Okay, you descredited Nehru and ALL the other historians.....while YOU
>have not presented ANY proof that the atrocities have NOT taken place
>
>We have presented names, dates, and history books...you have done none
>of the above
>
>You have just given us rhetoric. to make this a maningful discussion,
>YOU need to do some research, WE HAVE
>
>Islam was MUCH later entrant to the Subcontinent, and the Kushan
>Buddhist empire had already been destroyed by samgupta and
>others...READ the article
I read it, and it looks like you seem to be missing the point!!!
DO YOU THINK THAT THE KUSHAN EMPIRE WAS THE WHOLE OF BUDDHISM!!!!
GET THAT INTO YOUR HEAD!!!!!! BUDDHISM STILL EXISTED IN INDIA
AFTER THE KUSHAN EMPIRE!!!!
I will gladly provide references, now I am looking
at the references you posted to find the authorites they site.
Don't worry, I have a great number of references and I will
post them soon. Not one of them will be written by an Indian.
Rajah.
Rajah Skandarajah
melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>Rajah...DID YOU READ the article posted.....several historians WERE
>mentioned...what do I have to do...READ the article to YOU
Yes, I did, but to my knowledge, none of the historians mentioned
ring a bell, and I have studied Buddhism and its history for
the last 15 years. But just to be on the safe side, I will
investigate these references to see if they have credible
authority. But there is alot of BS in the large article you
posted which I can refute right now with ample evidence.
But I will save it for my posting of the entire article and
its flaws, packed with evidence.
Rajah.
Melhulan
Rajah...DID YOU READ the article posted.....several historians WERE
mentioned...what do I have to do...READ the article to YOU
In <53jvm0$g...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca> Rajah Skandarajah
<ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu> writes:
>
>melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>>Several pages of EVIDENCE has been posted.... you have not attemted
to
>>answer ANY of the EVIDENCE. YOU said you were studying it...now you
>>come up with a juvenile claim that Nehrus narratives are BUNK.
>>
Uday Reddy
Gurupdesh Singh wrote (in response to N.K. Agarwal):
>
> OC denialists like you will never accept the bloody hands
> of Brahmanism. But let me try again. Here are some
> previous threads on these question.
Gurupdeshji, I am not a "denialist." (don't know what "OC" stands for).
I very well accept that there were frequent conflicts between Brahmanism
and Buddhism and that they were at times violent.
But, Rohan's articles that you posted, which are solid and
well-researched, don't prove what you set out to claim. Notice what
Rohan himself says about what he was trying to do:
> There is much speculation about the causes of the decline of Buddhism
> in India. However, you seem to have missed the point, which was not
> that Hindu persecution *caused the decline* of Buddhism, but merely
> that Hindu perseucution *existed*. The former is debatable; the latter
> is not in doubt.
He was not trying to prove that Hindu persecution *caused the decline*
of Buddhism. Just that Hindu persecution *existed*. (That was entirely
appropriate for his purpose. He was countering the Hindu claim that
Islamic persecution of Hinduism *existed*.)
On the other hand, you are boldly claiming that Hindu persecution
caused, not only the decline, but the final *demise* of Buddhism. You
have a much harder job. You can't just hang on to Rohan's toes.
Your claim does not follow from citing a few isolated incidents of
persecution. You need to demonstrate that the Hindu persecution was
total and widespread. That it entirely killed Buddhism and did not
allow it to resurface again. Since you are, hopefully, aware that there
were numerous instances of coexistence between Hinduism and Buddhism,
you will also have to demonstrate that the persecutions far outweighed
those practices of tolerance and coexistence. Frankly, I have no idea
how you can do that.
Let me also remind you that you have not produced a single shred of
evidence for your claims about Shankaracharya.
Regards,
Uday Reddy
Gurupdesh Singh
OC denialists like you will never accept the bloody hands
of Brahmanism. But let me try again. Here are some
previous threads on these question.
From your ne...@cornell.edu Sun 03 Mar 96 20:53:21
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From: rajwi@principal-skinner (Rajwinder Singh)
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Subject: Re: Decline of Buddhism (Huns and Turks)
Followup-To: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.punjab,soc.culture.bengali,soc.culture.indian.marathi,soc.culture.indian.karnataka,alt.culture.kerala,soc.culture.indian.kerala,soc.culture.pakistan
Date: 25 Feb 96 20:49:49 GMT
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-Y (an43...@anon.penet.fi) wrote on Sat, 24 Feb 1996 03:50:04 UTC:
>Vivek Khare wrote:
>The single event that helped Buddhism go into a decline was the
>destruction of Buddhist institutions in Gandhar by the Huns (mainly
>Toramana and Mihirakula). The destruction was very considerable.
The foreign hand struck even in those ages!!! These damn foreigners are
respinsible for every single wrong thing that ever happened to the
Golden Sparrow. Dammm ferrigners!!
It isn't so convenient to shift the blame, MF. [MF stands for "my friend",
any other interpretation is your own imagination's fault.]
Here. Read again.
======================================================
From: ro...@crux4.cit.cornell.edu (Rohan Oberoi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.punjab,soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.bengali
Subject: For Hindu Negationists - Wake Up! Smell the Coffee.
Organization: Cornell University
The following is for the negationists who have been trying to conceal the
record of the Bloody Sword of Hinduism in India.
The massacres and oppression perpetrated by Hindus out of religious
hatred for Buddhists in ancient times are a matter of the historical
record. Yet, for reasons best known to themselves, negationists like
Mr. Rajiv Varma have been trying to conceal the hideous, blood-stained
record of Hinduism.
The truth must be told.
After the enlightenment of Gautama, the Buddha, in 483 B.C. his message
and his teachings spread across the face of India and Asia. Everywhere,
they encountered hostility and religious persecution from Hindu rulers
and priests. The conversion of Ashoka, who ruled over much of India in
the third century B.C., did much to counter this. After Ashoka's death,
however, the campaign of violence against Buddhists by Hindus began in
earnest.
The most important of the murderous Hindu bigots who carried out their
systematic campaign of violence against the peaceful followers of Lord
Buddha was Pushyamitra (184-48 B.C.), the founder of the Shunga dynasty.
The Divyavadana (ed. Vaidya, 282) tells us that this king resolved
to annihilate the teachings of the Buddha. He destroyed stupas, burned
monasteries, and killed monks as far as Shakala, where he made the
infamous declaration: "Whosoever gives me the head of a Shramana, him
I shall give a hundred dinars."
The Aryamanjushrimulakalpa tells us that Pushyamitra "destroyed
monasteries with relics and killed monks of good conduct." [Jayaswal,
18-19]. In his famous "History of Buddhism In India", written in
1608 A.D. the celebrated Tibetan historian Lama Taranatha mentions
the march of Pushyamitra from Madhyadesha to Jalandhara. In the
course of his campaigns, the book states, Pushyamitra burned down
numerous Buddhist monasteries and killed a number of learned monks
The archaeological evidence for the ravages wrought by Pushyamitra
and other Hindu fanatic rulers on famous Buddhist shrines is abundant.
Marshall [I.] records evidence of damage done to Buddhist
establishments at Takshashila. Goyal [430] notes that at Sanchi,
"there is all too clear evidence of damage wrought during the age
of Pushyamitra". At Kaushambi, he continues, there is also evidence
of the destruction and burning of the great monastery of Ghoshitarama
in the second century B.C. The culprit in this case was Toramana, a
member of the same dynasty as the Shaivite Mihirakula who did "immense
damage to the Buddhist shrines in Gandhara, Punjab and Kashmir."
Mihirakula is said to have razed 1600 viharas, stupas and monasteries,
and "put to death 900 Kotis, or lay adherents of Buddhism" [Joshi, 404].
As the revival of Brahmanical Hinduism progressed, atrocities against
Buddhists increased both in strength and in number. As Goyal [394]
notes, "According to many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one
of the major causes of the decline of Buddhism in India." The hatred
poured out against Buddhists in Hindu scriptures offers ample evidence
of this. To quote Goyal again [394-5]:
"Yajnavalkya (I. 271-72) declares that the very sight of a Buddhist
monk, even in dreams, is inauspicious. The Brhannaradiya-purana lays
it down as a principal sin for a Brahmana to enter the house of a
Buddhist even in times of great peril. The drama Mrchchhakatika
shows that in Ujjain the Buddhist monks were despised and their sight
was considered inauspicious. The Vishnupurana (XVIII 13-18) also
regards the Buddha as Mayamoha who appeared in the world to delude
the demons. Kumarila is said to have instigated King Sudhanvan of
Ujjain to exterminate the Buddhists. ... The Kerala-utpatti describes
how he exterminated the Buddhists from Kerala."
The Chinese traveller Yuan Chwang (Huen Tsang), who visited India in
the seventh century records the oppressions of Shashanka, the king of
Gauda, who was a devotee of Shiva. Yuan Chwang's account reads, "In
recent times Shashanka, the enemy and oppressor of Buddhism, cut down
the Bodhi tree, destroyed its roots down to the water and burned
what remained." [Watters II p.115] He also says that Shashanka tried
"to have the image (of Lord Buddha at Bodhgaya) removed and replaced
by one of Shiva". Another independent account of Shashanka's oppressions
is found in the Aryamanjushrimulakalpa, which refers to Shashanka
destroying "the beautiful image of Buddha" [Jayaswal, 49-50].
Another prominent seventh century murderer of Buddhists was Sudhanvan
of Ujjain, already mentioned in the quotation from Goyal above as
having been supposedly instigated by Kumarila Bhatt. Madhava Acharya,
in his "Sankara-digvijayam" of the fourteenth century A.D., records
that Suddhanvan "issued orders to put to death all the Buddhists from
Ramesvaram to the Himalayas".
Even after the Islamic invasions of India, Hindu bigotry and hatred for
Buddhists was not subdued. According to Sharmasvamin, a Tibetan pilgrim
who visited Bihar three decaes after the invasion of Bakhtiaruddin Khilji
in the 12th century, the biggest library at Nalanda was destroyed by
Hindu mendicants who took advantage of the chaos produced by the invasion.
He says that "they (Hindus) performed a Yajna, a fire sacrifice, and
threw living embers and ashes from the sacrifice into the Buddhist temples.
This produced a great conflagration which consumed Ratnabodhi, the nine-
storeyed library of the Nalanda University". [Prakash, 213].
Numerous destroyed Buddhist shrines were converted into Hindu temples
after their destruction. Ahir [58] notes that "The Seat of Buddha's
Enlightenment was in the possession of a Hindu Mahant till 1952.
Similarly, at Kushinara, where the Buddha had entered into Mahaparinirvana,
the cremation stupa had been converted into a Hindu temple, and on top of
it stood the temple of Rambhar Bhavani when Cunningham discovered the site
in 1860-61. Among the shrines which still continue to be dedicated to
Hindu gods mention may be made of the Caityas of Chezrala and Ter in
Andhra Pradesh which are now Shiva and Vishnu temples respectively. The
temple of Madhava at Sal Kusa, opposite Gauhati in Asam, was once a
sacred shrine of the Buddhists. ... And the famous Jagannatha temple at
Puri in Orissa was also originally a Buddhist shrine. Similarly, the
Vishnupada temple at Gaya was also once a Buddhist shrine." As
Rajendralal Mitra notes in his famous work of 1878 [quoted in Ahir, 59]
the feet of Buddha at Gaya were rechristened the feet of Vishnu and
held as the most sacred object of worship in the new Vishnupada temple.
Hinduism's record of violence and bigotry against the peaceful followers
of Lord Buddha is unparalleled. I trust this marshalling of the available
evidence for the benefit of readers who may not have had access to it will
impel negationists like Varma to accept and apologise for the crimes
committed in the name of Hinduism.
Regards,
Rohan.
------------
Bibliography.
Ahir, D.C. "Buddha Gaya Through the Ages", Bibliotheca Indo-Buddhica Series
No. 134, Delhi 1994.
Goyal, S.R., "A History of Indian Buddhism", Meerut 1987.
Jayaswal, "An imperial history of India", Lahore 1934.
Joshi, L.M. "Studies in the Buddhistic Culture of India", New Delhi 1967.
Marshall, John, "Taxila" Cambridge University Press 1951.
Prakash, Buddh, "Aspects of Indian History and Civilisation", Agra 1965.
Taranatha, "History of Buddhism in India", Indian Institute of Advanced
Studies, Simla, 1977.
Vaidya, P.L. ed. "Divyavadana", Darbhanga 1959.
Watters, T. "On Yuan Chwang's Travels in India," ed. by T. W. Rhys Davids
and S.W. Bushel, London 1904, 1905.
Path: tuba.cit.cornell.edu!crux4!ro11
From: ro...@crux4.cit.cornell.edu (Rohan Oberoi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.punjab,soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.bengali
Subject: Re: For Hindu Negationists - Wake Up! Smell the Coffee.
Date: 10 Sep 1995 05:32:58 GMT
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gu...@mrspock.mt.att.com (Arun Gupta) writes:
>>After the enlightenment of Gautama, the Buddha, in 483 B.C. his message
>>and his teachings spread across the face of India and Asia. Everywhere,
>>they encountered hostility and religious persecution from Hindu rulers
>Innuendo. History says no such thing.
I'm afraid it does. For someone whose favourite response to the
historical evidence is "this requires more digging into", you show
a remarkable ability to discern what history does say before you have
done your digging. Perhaps this may have something to do with rejecting
evidence you don't like.
Let me quote other Puranas I did not quote in my last article. I already
mentioned the Brhannaradiyapurana, which lays it down as a principal sin
for a brahman to enter the house of a Buddhist. The Agnipurana declares
that the son of Shuddhodana beguiled the "daityas" into becoming Buddhists.
The Vayupurana records its contempt for Buddhists thus: "With white teeth,
eyes brought under control, head shaved and read clothes, the shudras will
perform religious deeds". The Vishnupurana regards Buddha as a "great
seducer", called Mayamoha, who appeared in the world to delude the demons,
taught the doctrines of ahimsa and nirvana, and made people "devoid" of
the Vedic religion; his followers were finally destroyed "by the gods".
All this may be found quoted in Joshi, L.M. "Studies in the Buddhistic
Culture of India", Delhi, 1987.
That this hatred towards Buddhists was frequently translated into action,
and that it is no accident that former Buddhist shrines are now Hindu ones,
is no surprise.
>>The most important of the murderous Hindu bigots who carried out their
>>systematic campaign of violence against the peaceful followers of Lord
>>Buddha was Pushyamitra (184-48 B.C.), the founder of the Shunga dynasty.
>The dates for Pushyamitra Shunga are based completely on the Puranas. He
>either ruled 36 or 60 years. The 60 years is not generally accepted by
>historians.
>Shakala (modern Sialkot) was the capital of Pushyamitra Shunga's contemporary,
>Menandar, or in Buddhist literature, Milindha. Menander was of Greek origin,
>a Yavana, and a Buddhist. Why dates are important is because the Yavanas
>launched an invasion from across the Indus all the way to the outskirts of
>Pataliputra. Tradition has it that Pushyamitra beat back the invasion of
>Yavanas, and eventually performed two Asvamedhas. It is not clear whether
>it was Menander that he pushed back, but I can imagine some Buddhist' sore
>feelings. The other problem with not knowing the dates are that the Shungas
>built Buddhist stupas, the important ones at Bharhut and at Sanchi. Again,
>it is not clear whether it is Pushyamitra Shunga or rather, his successors.
>I'd also like to point out that while Pushyamitra is, in some traditions,
>from a brahmin family, in others he is "anarya".
>Lest people should think that the Divyavadana is a recently discovered work,
>let it be noted that it was translated by Cowell and Neil in 1886. Most
>historians until recent times dismiss it as a book of legends and would
>concur with Romila Thapar : "Buddhist sources claim that he persecuted the
>Buddhists, and destroyed their monasteries and places of worship, especially
>those which had been built by Asoka. This was clearly an exaggeration,
>since archeological evidence reveals that the Buddhist monuments at this
>time were being renewed".
Not one historian I have read "would concur" with Romila Thapar; neither
Goyal nor Joshi, both of whom have researched the subject exhaustively,
do. Goyal [431] lists the arguments against the historicity of the
Pushyamitra records and concludes that "To argue that the proof ... comes
only from Buddhist sources is not only incorrect but fallacious. It may
be pointed out that the archaeological evidence also points to the
destruction of Buddhist establishments of Kaushambi, Sanchi and
Takshashila in the same general period and thus supports the literary
tradition. Secondly, one wonders from which other source except the
Buddhist literature proof for the adoption of a policy of persecution
of the Buddhists and their religion by Pushyamitra may be expected... To
say that such sources are not reliable because the revival of Brahmanism
under Pushyamitra had made them angry is like saying that Mulla Badayuni
is not to be trusted for his report on the religious policy of Akbar
because he did not like the Mughal emperor and the latter's approach
towards Hinduism. If Akbar adopted any anti-Islamic measures it should
be expected to be mentioned in the work of anti-Akbar Mulla Badayuni,
rather than in the work of pro-Akbar Abul Fazal. In the same way, the
report of the persecution of the Buddhists by Pushyamitra should be
expected to be found in the Buddhist literature. Here it may also be
pointed out that the Divyavadana, the Aryamanjushrimulakalpa, and the
work of Taranatha belong to different periods and places. It cannot
be maintained that all these three sources have deliberately concocted
almost similar stories regarding the anti-Buddhist policy of
Pushyamitra..."
>A closer look at the literature would tell you that this is a matter of some
>controversy and the historians are debating it. If some new archeological
>evidence has been unearthed, I would be glad to hear of it.
There is a great deal you would profit by learning of, if you bothered
to do some reading before trying to fit the historical record to your
campaign to reclaim your Hindu heritage.
>Again, the Aryamanjushrimulakalpa, was translated at least as far back
>as 1925 [T. Ganapati Sastri] and historians seem to dismiss it as a reliable
>source. Again, maybe something new has turned up; I would appreciate hearing
>of it.
Three independent sources from different times and periods stating the
same thing tend to be regarded by historians as something as nearly
approaching reliability as the discipline of history is likely to get.
I don't know which historians you've been reading.
>Toramana and Mihirkula were Huns, considered by orthodox Hindus to be
>"mlecchas". Mihirkula may have embraced Saivism towards the end of his
>life.
I take it we are not debating the historicity of Mihirakula's persecutions
of Buddhists (good: Goyal [320] notes that these acts are recorded by
Kalhana and corroborated both by Hsuen-tsang and the Manjushrimulakalpa).
We are, then, trying to disclaim him for Hinduism as an alien Hun. In
that case, we are in sharp disagreement with Kalhana, who mentions that
Mihirakula patronised brahmanas, worshipped Shiva, and erected a temple
of Shiva, callled Mihireshvara, in Shrinagar. Mihirakula's coins similarly
prove that he was a Shaivite, and not just at the end of his life: they
all bear the legend, "Shri Mihirakulah jayatu vrshah". The Manjushrimulakalpa
notes the anti-Buddhist activity of a king who was marked with the name
of a planet (the Sun - Mihira, sun, cf. Mithra) and who patronised the
brahmanas. All this is in Goyal [320], who concludes that "from literary
as well as archaeological sources Mihirakula seems to have been a follower
of Brahmanism and a fanatical Shaiva".
>>As the revival of Brahmanical Hinduism progressed, atrocities against
>>Buddhists increased both in strength and in number. As Goyal [394]
>>notes, "According to many scholars hostility of the Brahmanas was one
>I'd like a list of these many scholars. Incidentally, I found a book
>by a Srirama Goyal, namesake of your S.R. Goyal, one might imagine,
>who takes quite the opposite view.
You'd have to ask Goyal, though I suspect many could be found in his
extensive bibliography of primary and secondary sources.
>>the seventh century records the oppressions of Shashanka, the king of
>>Gauda, who was a devotee of Shiva. Yuan Chwang's account reads, "In
>>recent times Shashanka, the enemy and oppressor of Buddhism, cut down
>>the Bodhi tree, destroyed its roots down to the water and burned
>>what remained." [Watters II p.115] He also says that Shashanka tried
>What Mr. Rohan Oberoi has omitted here is some of the other stuff :
[Mr. Gupta then includes some further quotes from the same work whose
bearing upon this question will no doubt be elucidated at a later date.]
>>"to have the image (of Lord Buddha at Bodhgaya) removed and replaced
>>by one of Shiva". Another independent account of Shashanka's oppressions
>Here Mr. Rohan Oberoi really sins in his omission. The temple that Hsuan
>Tsang wrote about [Watters,II, a few pages beyond p. 115] "had been built
>by a brahmin acting on advice given to him by Siva in the snow mountains,
>and the neighbouring tank had been built by the brahmin's brother also
>according to Siva's advice."
Uh... "sins in his omission"? It is not my purpose to argue that there
never was a brahmana or a Hindu sympathetic to Buddhism. [I presume that
you and Mr. Varma would not argue that there never was a Muslim sympathetic
to Hinduism, particularly when you have the example of Dara Shukoh in front
of you.] It *was* my intention to point out that atrocities and religious
bigotry have been practised as much by Hindus as against them in Indian
history, and any attempt to paint that history as one of the crimes
committed by the followers of one religion against those of another is
nothing more nor less than a selective and distorted reading of history.
[In case you missed it, my original article in this thread was inspired
by one of Mr. Rajiv Varma's, of a similar name. I notice you did not
find it worth replying to.]
>It would hardly seem that Siva was unkindly disposed towards Buddha, would
>it now ? Given this omission by Mr. Oberoi, I'm very skeptical of the other
>stuff that he has written.
"Shiva" was unkindly disposed towards Buddha? Are you under the impression
that that deity was a historical figure? We are talking about Shashanka
here, not Shiva. The evidence for Shashanka's anti-Buddhist policy is
quite unassailable; the evidence for Shiva's policy towards Buddhists is
likely to be speculative in the extreme.
>Since the books I find report that Muhammad Ghuri sacked Nalanda; that when
>Dharmasvamin visited, around a century later, he found 2 buildings standing
>out of the original 82; and that even while he was there, he witnessed
>another attack by the Turks, I am deeply skeptical of Rohan Oberoi's
>reporting.
What are you skeptical about? I am not attempting to write the historical
record of Buddhist shrines, nor am I denying that non-Hindu invaders
sacked Buddhist shrines. I am pointing the evidence for *Hindu* hatred
towards and violent oppression of Buddhists. Muhammad Ghuri's actions
are hardly germane to this issue one way or another.
>>Numerous destroyed Buddhist shrines were converted into Hindu temples
>>after their destruction. Ahir [58] notes that "The Seat of Buddha's
>>Enlightenment was in the possession of a Hindu Mahant till 1952.
>The quote from Ahir is the silliest of all. The site being in the possession
>of a Hindu Mahant in no way implies that it had been destroyed or converted.
Not necessarily; but we have an account that is generally reliable, from
Huen Tsang, telling us that in the seventh century A.D. not only was the
Bodhi Tree at Gaya cut down by the Shaivite Shashanka, but that that
worthy tried to install an image of Shiva in place of that of the Tathagata.
One easy conclusion: there was not at that time an idol of Shiva at the
spot, but there was Shaivite sentiment in favour of having one there (and
equally strong Buddhist sentiment against. Now, there is a shivalingam
in the temple. No guesses on how it got there.
>>Similarly, at Kushinara, where the Buddha had entered into Mahaparinirvana,
>>the cremation stupa had been converted into a Hindu temple, and on top of
>>it stood the temple of Rambhar Bhavani when Cunningham discovered the site
>>in 1860-61. Among the shrines which still continue to be dedicated to
>>Hindu gods mention may be made of the Caityas of Chezrala and Ter in
>>Andhra Pradesh which are now Shiva and Vishnu temples respectively. The
>>temple of Madhava at Sal Kusa, opposite Gauhati in Asam, was once a
>>sacred shrine of the Buddhists. ... And the famous Jagannatha temple at
>>Puri in Orissa was also originally a Buddhist shrine. Similarly, the
>>Vishnupada temple at Gaya was also once a Buddhist shrine." As
>>Rajendralal Mitra notes in his famous work of 1878 [quoted in Ahir, 59]
>>the feet of Buddha at Gaya were rechristened the feet of Vishnu and
>>held as the most sacred object of worship in the new Vishnupada temple.
>Again, this requires some digging into.
I shall await with bated breath the results of your excavations.
Regards,
Rohan.
Path: tuba.cit.cornell.edu!crux4!ro11
From: ro...@crux4.cit.cornell.edu (Rohan Oberoi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.punjab,soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.bengali
Subject: Re: For Hindu Negationists - Wake Up! Smell the Coffee.
Date: 10 Sep 1995 14:06:31 GMT
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rva...@stallion.jsums.edu (Rajiv Varma) writes:
>While there has been friction between Brahmins and Buddhist scholars and
>priests/monks alike, it seems that this friction is exaggerated and
>painted by latter day stooges of pseudo-secular political perversion.
...
>But NONE, repeat NONE, resulted in the
>fury which Islamic iconoclasts have heaped on the Kafir population of the
>world, not only India. As guided by their holy book, Quran, and the
>Hadiths, the Prophet's traditions, every Muslim monarch/govt. has taken
>the literal word of Quran and Hadiths, and implemented their Jihadic
>pogrom with unparalleled and endless zeal.
This stooge of pseudo-secular political perversion would like to point out
that:
1. The "friction" between the followers of Brahmanism and the Buddhists,
as evidenced in the sacred texts of the latter, was both wide-ranging and
vicarious. The evidence of persecution by specific kings of whom we
have record demonstrates that this hatred can and did instigate violence
and brutality against Buddhists on a large scale.
2. If you are so upset about the Qur'an and Hadiths to which you object,
no doubt you are equally angry about the Puranas which preach hatred
against Buddhism. The crime of which you accuse the Qur'an is the same
crime of which your own sacred texts are guilty. I have quoted, I believe,
four different Puranas in another recent article.
3. Your assertion that "every Muslim monarch/govt has taken the literal
word of Quran and Hadiths" and thereby persecuted Kafirs is, in simple
terms, a fabrication, a fantasy, and a lie. You, Mr. Varma, are deluding
yourself and deliberately ignoring the facts in pursuit of your Hindu
bigotry. When a Pushyamitra, a Shashanka or a Mihirakula slaughters
Buddhists and razes stupas and monasteries, you consider these isolated
instances; but when a Mahmud or a Timur slaughters Hindus and loots
temples, you consider it a crime to lay at the door of the very philosophy
of Islam, past and present. This is the worst kind of double standards,
and it can only lead to a perverted interpretation of history that will
very properly be rejected by professional historians.
It is a fact that the majority of Muslim rulers in India -- those who
were empire-builders rather than adventurers, Babars rather than Nadir
Shahs -- did *not* loot temples or overly oppress their subjects, if for
no other reason then because it would have been suicidal to do otherwise.
For instance, I quoted earlier on this forum an edict of Tipu Sultan,
in which he lays out rules for the proper management of the temples in
his domain.
3. I do not know who D.D. Kosambi is, but you are unlikely to score
anything more than brownie points with the uneducated by taking a few
lines from him and treating them as Gospel truth in the fashion you have.
His arguments are only as good as the primary sources with which they
are documented; which is why, when I have quoted a historian, I have
taken care to mention the primary documents on the basis of which they
derive their conclusions. The assertion of this D.D. Kosambi that there
was no persecution of Buddhists until the 12th century is flatly
contradicted by the historical record.
Regards,
Rohan.
Path: tuba.cit.cornell.edu!crux4!ro11
From: ro...@crux4.cit.cornell.edu (Rohan Oberoi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.religion.hinduism
Subject: Re: For Hindu Negationists - Wake Up! Smell the Coffee.
Date: 16 Sep 1995 12:51:54 GMT
Organization: Cornell University
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nti...@vtaix.cc.vt.edu (Nachiketa Tiwari) writes:
>> The most important of the murderous Hindu bigots who carried out their
>> systematic campaign of violence against the peaceful followers of Lord
>> Buddha was Pushyamitra (184-48 B.C.), the founder of the Shunga dynasty.
>> The Divyavadana (ed. Vaidya, 282) tells us that this king resolved
>> to annihilate the teachings of the Buddha. He destroyed stupas, burned
>> monasteries, and killed monks as far as Shakala, where he made the
>> infamous declaration: "Whosoever gives me the head of a Shramana, him
>> I shall give a hundred dinars."
>This is not true. Jackson in his History of India (v. 2, p. 183) writes
>about Pushyamitra Shunga:
>"The memorable horse sacrifice of Pushyamitra marked the beginning of the
>Brahmanical reaction, which was fully developed five centuries later in the
>time of Samudragupta and his successors".
>But the revival of the practice of sacrifice by an orthodox Hindu ruler did
>not necessarily involve the persecution of Jains and Buddhists who oabhorred
>the rite. There is no evidence that any member of those sects was ever
>compelled to sacrifice against his will, as, under Budhhist and Jain
>denomination, the orthodox were forced to abstain from ceremonies regarded by
>them as essential to salvation. Pushyamitra has been accused of that
>persecution, BUT THE EVIDENCE IS MERELY OF LEGEND OF NO AUTHORITY."
Jackson's source for the information that he cites about the horse
sacrifice can only be the same sources that he dismisses as "legendary".
This does not greatly inspire confidence in his conclusions. And, as I
have pointed out, there are three independent sources that confirm
Pushyamitra's oppressions. Quoting one historian's slant on history
without presenting his arguments seems to be a favourite trick here.
>> of Pushyamitra". At Kaushambi, he continues, there is also evidence
>> of the destruction and burning of the great monastery of Ghoshitarama
>> in the second century B.C. The culprit in this case was Toramana, a
>> member of the same dynasty as the Shaivite Mihirakula who did "immense
>> damage to the Buddhist shrines in Gandhara, Punjab and Kashmir."
>> Mihirakula is said to have razed 1600 viharas, stupas and monasteries,
>> and "put to death 900 Kotis, or lay adherents of Buddhism" [Joshi, 404].
>This is mis-information. Right facts, mut wrong conclusion. Toramana and
>Mihirkula were both Hoons. The Hoons were noted for their barbarism. Toramana
>I believe was the father of Mihirkula. These Hoons were from the same stock
>as Atilla the Hun, the guy whose very name made Europeans shiver. They
>persecuted at all places, and religious bigotry was not the reason behind
>that. Since Buddhism was a widely practiced faith in N and NW India in those
>days, the most persecuted guys were the Buddhists. Also, historical records
>show that Mihirkula later converted to Saivism, but his track record of
>barbarism pre-dates this conversion.
Mihirakula is specifically mentioned as a great patron of the Brahmans
and a Shaivite. There is no historical support for your contention that
Mihirakula's conversion to Shaivism postdates his oppression of Buddhists.
>> "Yajnavalkya (I. 271-72) declares that the very sight of a Buddhist
>> monk, even in dreams, is inauspicious. The Brhannaradiya-purana lays
>> it down as a principal sin for a Brahmana to enter the house of a
>> Buddhist even in times of great peril. The drama Mrchchhakatika
>> shows that in Ujjain the Buddhist monks were despised and their sight
>> was considered inauspicious. The Vishnupurana (XVIII 13-18) also
>> regards the Buddha as Mayamoha who appeared in the world to delude
>> the demons. Kumarila is said to have instigated King Sudhanvan of
>> Ujjain to exterminate the Buddhists. ... The Kerala-utpatti describes
>> how he exterminated the Buddhists from Kerala."
>Mr Goyal, who Rohan so fondly quotes, must be a very myopic person.
>Prompted by Rohans accusations, I did some considerable reading on the
>causes of demise of Budhhism.
There is much speculation about the causes of the decline of Buddhism
in India. However, you seem to have missed the point, which was not
that Hindu persecution *caused the decline* of Buddhism, but merely
that Hindu perseucution *existed*. The former is debatable; the latter
is not in doubt.
We would not exonerate Diocletian of the persecution of the Christians
because he did not cause Christianity to die out.
Regards,
Rohan.
Path: tuba.cit.cornell.edu!crux4!ro11
From: ro...@crux4.cit.cornell.edu (Rohan Oberoi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.punjab,soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.bengali
Subject: Re: For Hindu Negationists - Wake Up! Smell the Coffee.
Date: 16 Sep 1995 13:11:38 GMT
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gu...@mrspock.mt.att.com (Arun Gupta) writes:
>Well, Rohan Oberoi, its very amusing that you quote the Puranas as
>historical sources. If you accept them as good sources, then you
>have to also accept that Yudhisthira ruled in 3000 BC, and that
>the Ramjanmabhoomi temple existed at the site that the BJP claims.
>These are all in the Puranas. I don't see you accepting these
>anytime soon.
You clearly know very little about the analysis of historical texts.
A statement of fact in one implies that the author of the text believed
it to be true. Whether or not the author knew enough about the matter
to justify his belief is an entirely different question that has to be
settled on secondary or indirect evidence. Bigoted statements, on the
other hand, imply that the authors of the work were bigoted (in this
case, against Buddhists). No secondary inferences are necessary. There
is also ample evidence in the sources that the Puranas were held up as
exemplary during the Brahmanical revival.
>Similarly, if you consider the 'Divyavadana' and Taranath's account
>of Pushyamitra Sunga to be independent, you have to show a train
>of transmission independent of Divyavadana that Taranath could have
>had access to.
Or, if you believe them to be dependent, you have to prove that the one
based his story on the other. This is not a useful argument. Neither
you nor I can read these documents in the original to weigh the chains
of transmission.
>The simple matter of fact is that the Divyavadana has been around in
>English translation since 1896 or so, and no historian except the ones
>you quote have taken it seriously. All the others dismiss it.
Brilliant. Earlier it was, "no historians". Now, when I have cited
two, it is "no historian except the ones you quote". May I point out,
Mr. Gupta, that you have not quoted a single historian on this subject,
and yet you presume to speak for every historian who has ever considered
the subject. Will you, at least, quote three, since they are all
(according to you) in agreement on this ?
>None of these works are good historical sources, and that is the truth
>of the matter.
No work of history prior to the nineteenth century, except possibly
for the history of Thucydides, was written from the point of view
of a professional historian. That does not mean that historians dismiss
all textual evidence prior to the nineteenth century as worthless; it
does mean that they exercise care in their interpretation. The same
lousy arguments you make against the use by Goyal of the Divyavadana
and the work of Taranatha could be used against the use of Alberuni,
whom I notice you have quoted in the past.
Regards,
Rohan.
--
In article <325D22...@wpo.hcc.com>, nagr...@wpo.hcc.com says...
>
>Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
>>
>> In article <325B12...@cs.uiuc.edu>, re...@cs.uiuc.edu says...
>> >
>> >Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> However, 11 centuries later in the 7th century A.D., the crafty
>> >> ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
>> >> "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
>> >> of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
>> >> An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
>> >> Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
>> >> Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
>> >> and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
>> >> Buddists who resisted conversion.
>> >
>> >Gurupdeshji, for somebody at Cornell, you have a pretty wild
>> >imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
>> >dream it up last night?
>> >
>> >Uday Reddy
>
>Long time back I read a book titled "Nalanda" written by an historian (I am
>forgetting the name). This book was like a novel and it presented facts related to
>demise of great universities of Nalanda and VikramShila in (11th Century AD) which
>were under the rule of the then Pataliputra king Govinda Pant. As per the book
>these two universities and eventually all the traditions related with them were
>destroyed by a Muslim invader. Three libraries with thousands of books were put on
>fire in no time. Each and every soul including the highest monk present within the
>premises was slaughtered quickly. King Govinda Pant and everybody at these
>universities already knew about the advancing army of the invaders but they did
>nothing millitarily to stop the attack. Instead, the priests were performing
>Tantrik rituals to stop the attack with blessings from the king. This book also
>gives an insight into how 'Tantra Vad' had engulfed Buddhism and Buddhist rulers
>at that time which ultimately led to the destruction of Nalanda followed by
>VikramShila and PataliPutra.
>
>After such attacks, India was mostly ruled by the invaders and we all know what
>they did.
>
>Fabricating history and saying that Hindu brigades destroyed Buddhism does not
>make any sense. If Hindus had to do this: why did they spare Jain religion?
>
>Shankaracharya himself was opposed to Karmakanda or extreme ritualism (refer to
>his debate with Mandan Mishra in Kashi). He or anybody else never ever organized
>any Hindu brigades to force conversion.
>
>According to what I have read or heard, following reasons led to the demise of
>Buddhism:--
>
>1) Weakened by attacks, Buddhist rulers were no longer able to provide financial
>protection to Buddhist institutions.
>
>2) "Bhikshu Pratha" (most of the people converting to Buddhism were turning into
>Bhikshu or monks) could not sustain over the period.
>
>3) Buddhist vihar, universities etc. were destroyed en-masse by muslim invaders
>and all the monks present at the time were put to death.
>
>Finally, only a shithead with extreme sadistic desire will fabricate history to
>discredit a religion and write what Gurupdesh writes. Such people don't
>achieve anything but do it to fulfill their sadistic desires and in the process
>through shit on the running fan in their own living room.
Rajiv Varma
In article <325B12...@cs.uiuc.edu>, Uday Reddy <re...@cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Gurupdesh Singh wrote:
>>
>> However, 11 centuries later in the 7th century A.D., the crafty
>> ShankraCharya (a Brahmin) convinced the new rulers (recent
>> "Hun" invaders fron central asia) in regions of the north
>> of eradicating Buddhism and supplanting it with Brahmanism.
>> An army of "shiv saniks" was recruited, given a dip in the
>> Ganga, and given a trishul - Lord Shiva was to protect them.
>> Then, these goondas and thugs were let loose on the people
>> and given full licence to murder, rape, and plunder all
>> Buddists who resisted conversion.
>
>Gurupdeshji, for somebody at Cornell, you have a pretty wild
>imagination. Do you have any sources to support this or did you just
>dream it up last night?
>
>Uday Reddy
>
These fellows are recycling the old psec trash. All these lies these
people perpetrate have been refuted in the past.
[Update in Terminology: Pseudo is too mild, the right word is "Fraud-O"
:-) , hence "fraud-o-secular" ]
------
These fellas reproduced Mr. Oberoi's post, but failed to mention obviously
that he had written that as a retaliation.
[Ah, but then again Gurupdesh and Oberoi seem too close ... , both have
Cornell as the LCD ;-) ... "Samajhne wale samajh gaye, jo na samjhe woh
... :-)]
Anyway, .....
I am reproducing my response from that time .....
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx article from '95 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
While there has been friction between Brahmins and Buddhist scholars and
priests/monks alike, it seems that this friction is exaggerated and
painted by latter day stooges of pseudo-secular political perversion.
These people cannot account for similar friction between rival Brahmanical
sects, as it does not serve their political masters. Brahmin priests
hurled invectives at Buddhist monks, the Buddhist monks hurled abuses
against Brahmin priests, the Jain monks mocked at Brahmin priests, Brahmin
priests hurled invectives at rival Brahmin priests, Buddhists against
Jains, and every permutation and combination. But these were with words.
They made fun of each other, in the true spirit of freedom of speech,
thought and expression. But NONE, repeat NONE, resulted in the fury which
Islamic iconoclasts have heaped on the Kafir population of the world, not
only India. As guided by their holy book, Quran, and the Hadiths, the
Prophet's traditions, every Muslim monarch/govt. has taken the literal
word of Quran and Hadiths, and implemented their Jihadic pogrom with
unparalleled and endless zeal.
But pseudo-secular "scholars" in India, as guided by their political
masters at Delhi, went on a negationist spree of hiding the truth, and
manufacturing lies, to support and perpetrate a myth that Hinduism has
done something similar to other religions! Very conveniently they took the
disappearance of Buddhism (which in fact got wiped out by Islam),
juxtaposed with some stray incidents, and concluded that Hinduism was not
kind to Buddhism either! And all this (perverted) "scholarship" was
'engineered' to put down the Hindu anger over partition of their
Punyabhoomi.
The sad part is that the "plan" worked, and Hindus in Free India, have
been defensive ever since. It also served the political masters of
Nehru-Gandhi dynasty very well, who showered these so called (kept)
"historians" with scholarships, grants, positions, etc., nay, even with a
University, the Jawahar Lal Nehru University at Delhi, the fortress of
Nehruvian Pseudo-secularism perversion.
But as the Hindi proverb goes, "chor ki dadhi mein tinka," (fortunately
for us Hindus), the scholars of their (Marxist) own political orientation
have refuted the very myth these perverted pseudo-scholars have
manufactured.
Was Buddhism persecuted by Brahmanism? ............
We have the profound pleasure of hearing the ace Marxist historian D.D.
Kosambi on this issue. Jaiswal, Thapar and Goyal fade away in front of
this doyen of Marxist historians.
[The poster is deliberately starting with a Marxist historian, so as there
is no doubt left among the negationists (of Islamic iconoclasm) on this
issue, as, if neutral or independent sources were referred to, these
perverts would immediately claim that the authors are on RSS/VHP/BJP
payroll !]
[Ref. - Kosambi, D.D.: "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in
Historical Outline," Vikas Publications, New Delhi 1988, First Ed. 1964.]
About the now common belief in pseudo-secular circles, and in the press
that after the supposedly Buddhist Emperor Ashoka, the "Brahmanical
establishment took revenge," the Marxist historian D.D. Kosambi
categorically states:
"The state support that Ashoka had given CONTINUED TILL THE END OF THE
TWELFTH CENTURY, when all monastic foundations in the north were finally
LOOTED AND WIPED OUT BY MUSLIMS."
[Kosambi, "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical
Outline," Page 180.]
So the guru of the perverted likes of Jaiswal, Thapar and Goyal admits
that Buddhist monastaries of North India were looted and wiped out BY THE
MUSLIMS.
He also admits that the state support to these Buddhist monastaries and
institutions CONTINUED UNTIL 12th century.
Now Messrs. Nehruvian Tasmanians, who controlled the state until 12th
century? The same "Brahmanical Kings" that you accuse of taking revenge on
Buddhism. Thank you. Your own guru admits that these "Brahmanical kings"
were extending support to Buddhist monasteries and institutions. Nail on
your coffin! [The coffin which even the Allah's soldiers will not allow to
be buried in their cemetery, since in their eyes you still happen to be
Kafirs.]
D.D. Kosambi further states:
"The gifts were never rescinded by PRE-MUSLIM Kings. The immediate
succesors of Mauryas favored Brahmins. The first Shunga king celebrated a
horse sacrifice in yajna style. THIS HAD NO EFFECT UPON BUDDHISM, as is
shown by the augmented Shunga structures at Sanchi. The Mahabharata was
prominently cited in Gupta landgrants to the Brahmins, from the fourth
century; but AT THE SAME TIME BUDDHIST MONASTERIES WERE RENOVATED AND
THEIR STIPENDS INCREASED."
[Kosambi, "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical
Outline," Page 180.]
A Ha! Sungas were funding monasteries while the Nehruvian cahuts claim
that Hinduism was not kind to Buddhism!
Again, D.D. Kosambi writes in the next page:
"...... this only led to the buildings being stormed and sacked all the
more thoroughly by a handful of MUSLIM RAIDERS UNDER MOHAMMED BIN BAKHTYAR
KHALJI .... about AD 1200 . The tremendous complex of stupas and
monasteries at Sarnath which had gone up on the site of the first Buddhist
sermon ..... WAS WRECKED BEYOND RECOVERY, thus ending a continuous
tradition of refuge and meeting-place for ascetics which went back to the
centuries before the Buddha."
[Kosambi, "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical
Outline," Page 181.]
Further evidence towards your prosecution for your contempt for the
truth......
In Muslim territory, Buddhism was destroyed root and branch, but NOT in
Hindu territory. Again, the ace Marxist historian D.D. Kosambi writes:
".... The Koreans could still invite an Indian Buddhist monk during the
FOURTEENTH century, but not from classical foundations; it had to be from
the South, where Buddhism was quietly fading away...."
[Kosambi, "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical
Outline," Page 180.]
Whether Hindu kings destroyed Buddhism? ............................
On the same page, yet again, D.D. Kosambi writes:
"..... For that matter, the minor non-Buddhist Schools auch as the
materialist Lokayatas and the near-Buddhist followers of the Sakyan
Devadatta were known to survive in Magadha at least till the 7th century.
They WERE NOT DESTROYED, BUT WITHERED AWAY IN PEACEFUL DECAY in a land
that could TOLERATE MANY INCOMPATIBLE SYSTEMS AT THE SAME TIME ......."
[Kosambi, "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical
Outline," Page 180.]
To sum it up, D.D. Kosambi writes:
"....The question of the 'restoration of Hinduism' or of some king being
Buddhist or Hindu is meaningless. Many people, kings or commoners, could
support the later Brahmin ritual, worship pre-historic gods barely made
decent, and simultaneously give generous donations to the Buddhists,
Ajivikas and Jains right through the end. ..."
[Kosambi, "The Culture and Civilisation of Ancient India in Historical
Outline," Page 180.]
A far far far far cry from the Islamic states of medieval times or for
that matter of today, where they persecute their own people (who even
belong to their faith), let alone the Kafirs ........ Shia and Ahmadiya
persecution in Pakistan is a telling example.
.....................
best regards,
Rajiv Varma
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
regards,
Rajiv
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <53j95g$4...@bmerhc5e.bnr.ca>, ska...@skule.ecf.toronto.edu
says...
>
>melh...@ix.netcom.com(Melhulan) wrote:
>>Mr. Reddy:
>>
>>Buddhism DID NOT JUST VANISH from India, it DID NOT GET absorbed ito
>>Hinduism.....Buddhism was mercilessly HUNTED out of the
>>Subcontinent....Muslim fear the same and that led to the creation of
>>Pakistan (an area WHERE some Muslims could preserve Islam)
>>
>>insead of disputing them
>
>Mr Melhuan,
>
> I suggest you read the history books written by Buddhists and
>Far Eastern authors before commenting. Jawahar Lal Nehru was no
>historian, and his book is not the only book on history.Brahmanism
>was no peaceful Cadre, but Islamic invaders did far more to end
>Buddhism(violently) than did Brahmanism. Furthermore, you overestimate
>the size of Buddhist empires and the strength of Brahmins as an
>overcoming power using violence. I suggest you get some REAL HISTORICAL
>FACTS before commenting. And FYI, Buddhists today still acknowledge
*******************************************************************
Now its your turn to do some homework. Can you
provide references supporting your claim that
"Buddhists acknowledged the genius of Shankracharya"?
This idiotic claim would be like arguing that "Jews
acknowledged that genius of Hitler".
>the genius of Shankaracharya as the main cause for the Demise of
>Buddhism.
>
>
> Rajah.
>
Vivek Khare
gs...@cornell.edu (Gurupdesh Singh) writes:
>OC denialists like you will never accept the bloody hands
>of Brahmanism. But let me try again. Here are some
>previous threads on these question.
** stuff deleted **
>-Y (an43...@anon.penet.fi) wrote on Sat, 24 Feb 1996 03:50:04 UTC:
>>Vivek Khare wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>The single event that helped Buddhism go into a decline was the
>>destruction of Buddhist institutions in Gandhar by the Huns (mainly
>>Toramana and Mihirakula). The destruction was very considerable.
>The foreign hand struck even in those ages!!! These damn foreigners are
>respinsible for every single wrong thing that ever happened to the
>Golden Sparrow. Dammm ferrigners
Mr. Gurupdesh Singh, please be careful with your attibutions.
While the presence of my name in the posting might suggest that I had
said any/all of the above, I haven't done so.
**stuff deleted **
Vivek Khare
Janahan Skandaraniyam
4h...@qlink.queensu.ca (Harjinder) wrote:
>Or that Jews acknowledged the genius of Christ
>bwahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhah....
>
>Gurupdesh, you are arguing with idiots, wish you well :)
Hey goatboy, why don't you argue using your brain instead
of your bleating mouth. I said I will post references, and
I explained my context of the word "genius" to Gurpdesh.
But then again, ask Gurpdesh himself, who although
has a hate for Gandhi, called him a "political genius".
P.S. do you have a brain?
Rajah.