LANGUAGE.......
PakPanjabi
>What are your intentions of inducting Arabic and Farsi as Pkaistani
>languages.
Just like I added Sanskrit.... Arabic and Persian (Farsi) also represents our
heritage.... they are the languages of our ancestors... Our present day
Pakistani languages are derived or strongly influenced by them from them...
Persian (or it's dialects) were spoken and official language when the region of
Pakistan was part of the Achaemenian empire... then when half of the region
Pakistan became part of Sassanian empire the same happened... and finally with
the arrival of Turkic-Afghan-Moghul Muslim rule, Persian remained the official
language of the Muslims until the arrival of the British... So it is part of
our heritage and ancestors.... As far as Arabic is concerned.. besides being
the official language when most of the region of Pakistan was part of the Arab
empire... Arabic is the language of the holy Quran... almost all Muslims learn
it as part of our religious tradition... Arabic was one of the most important
languages during the period of Muslim rule... it was the language of the
educated along with Persian... So Arabic is also part of our
heritage/ancestors... and religion.. Almost all present day languages of
Pakistan write in the Arabic/Persian script... and have strong vocabulary
derived from it..
>English deserved to be the official language of Pkaistan,because all other
>languages are too inferior
Typical slave-mentality... suffering from inferiority complex...
>incomplete to cater the needs of sicience and
>technology.German,chinese,Japanese,french etc have been boosterd with great
>efforts by thoise nations to
>meet the modern needs and so have been able to match the advancement in all
>fields.
Just like the Germans, French, Russians, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Spaniards,
Italians, Arabs, Iranians, etc etc.... use their own native languages in every
field... so can Pakistanis... we are not lesser than anyone else... All it
takes is proper establishment of linguistic insitutions who can assist in
deriving, directing and promoting the necessary words needed in the constantly
technological expanding world... At the time of WW2... Japan,
China,... or Korea more recently,... they were extremely poor and backward
nations... their languages were incomplete to cater the needs of
science/technology... but they not suffering from slave-mentality... created
proper linguistic institutions which assisted them in keeping their languages
intact while modernization is carried on... It is not too late for Pakistan
either...
>The father of the nation spoke only English and emphasised on the
>importaanece of English.English is now global language
Just because he lived many years and was educated in England.. one can
understand why he spoke mostly English... but that is no reason for Pakistanis
to follow... He also occasionally drank.. so should Pakistanis also follow this
bad side of him... No doubt English is important and we should learn it... it
has become the so called global language... but this doesnt mean we should
destroy or ignore our languages.. Speaking English is only fine when
communicating with non-Pakistanis... or for international business, diplomatic
or student purposes...
PakPanjabi
>Sanskrit lives in its derivatives.....not even One Sanskrit word is lost....
Sure... but the language (Sanskrit) itself is not spoken by the masses/people
anymore.... therefore an extinct language... it is now only used for religious
and scholarly purposes.... The probable cause for it's extinction was high
priestly (Brahman) monopoly over sacred ancient Sanskrit texts...
>.words in most N and E Indian languages use Sanskrit words in their original
>forms....
Sure... but the fact remains that North Indian languages are different
languages... they are not Sanskrit... French has a lot of Latin words.. but is
is not Latin.. They all have evolved into distinct languages... right?
BTW... All north Indian languages who have their roots from Sanskrit are
classified as Indo-Aryan languages (branch of Indo-Iranian... Indo-European
languages)... but there are pockets of Austro-Asiatic (e.g. Munda) languages in
Orissa, Bihar, W.Bengal, Madhya Pradesh and Maharashta... Also in the
northeast/east... except for Bengali, Assamese and Chakma.... all other
languages are Sino-Tibetan (e.g. Naga, Bodo, etc)... Both Austro-Asiatic and
Sino-Tibetan languages are completely distinct from Indo-Aryan (Indic- derived
from Sanskrit) languages in north India....
>Dravidian languages of the South have been heavily replenished by Sanskrit
>words as well.
Sure... as two neighbors.. throughout centuries due to interactions...
Indo-Aryan languages have adopted some Dravidian features... and Dravidian
languages have adopted some Indo-Aryan features... But they both still have
distinct characteristics/features....
>you advocate the use of Sanskrit in Pakistan......how come there is No
>Sanskrit
>department in Any Paki University?? its strange ..isnt it??
Use of Sanskrit only for scholarly, religious and historical studies... E.g.
Panini's work... Sanskrit played a major role in pre-Islamic Pakistan...
Although Persian, Greek, and Aramaic also played a major role... being
languages of the educated and the ruling elite... Sanskrit itself evolved from
Vedic language... closely resembling ancient Iranian languages (e.g Avestan)...
Hey, there are one or two institutions in Pakistan who have Sanskrit studies...
I think there is one in Islamabad..
PakPanjabi
>idea of arabic as the sole official language is unworkable.
Perhaps so... it is just an idea... one advantage with it is that it not the
native language of any group of Pakistanis... unlike Urdu the mother tongue
language of Muhajirs... and it is the language in which the Quran was
revealed... Pakistanis being proud of their religion and sensitive about
domination by others ... will no doubtedly accept Arabic more popularly...
> arabic is a foreign language.
I disagree... Arabic language is part of our heritage and religion... It is as
foreign to Pakistanis as is Hebrew to Jews... Pakistani languages are strongly
influenced by it... same script... much vocabulary...
>even urdu is a foreign language that was developed by hindus to converse with
>its mughal rulers. urdu is a mixture of the the then prevalent khari boli
>(now evolve into hindi)
>and persian
Although I am personally not against Urdu being the national language... It is
no doubt the mother tongue of Mohajirs... but Urdu was basically the popular
language in all of South Asia during the late period of Muslim rule and
throughout the British period... it was the language of communication between
the Muslim rulers and the ruled masses (Hindus)... Urdu is indeed derived from
Persian (Turkish-Arabic also) mixed with Khari boli of Delhi
region... It was developed as the Persian (Turkish-Arabic) speaking Muslim
rulers who were based around Delhi slowly evolved into Urdu due to interactions
with the locals... Infact 'Urdu' is a Turkic word which means military camp
(the English word 'horde' is also derived from it)... signifying the roots of
it's origin... So in the real sense Urdu is not so foreign to other
Pakistanis... Hindi was extracted from Urdu during the British era...
> pakistan is better off using the regional languges to cary out the affairs
>of the provinces
Indeed, all regional languages should be promoted at the local level.... they
should be protected and preserved at all costs...
>with english as the language of liason.
Why would one choose a language of former colonial masters... who treated us as
slaves... never got mixed with the population... never settled in our land...
have a totally distinct culture/religion/language/race.... exploited and robbed
us... and went back to their homeland on the other side of the world....
Atleast Urdu, Arabic, Farsi are part of our heritage, and very close to our
culture/race...
PakPanjabi
>It may not be bad idea to encourage Arabic as the official language of
>Pakistan. In its goal to be truly Islamic nation making Arabic the sole
>official language will integrate the populace with the Koran and Islamic
>culture. Arabic could be a unifying force.
While I dont think making Arabic as the official language of Pakistan is a bad
idea... Arabic language is not a requirement in Islam... You can be a Muslim
and still not learn Arabic... You can have an Islamic nation without making
Arabic the official language... Even though Arabic language is part of
Pakistan's heritage... and the Quran was revealed in Arabic... Arabic is
important in Islamic studies... and that many Pakistanis learn Arabic
language... Arabic language is by no means a compulsary part of Islam... Islam
and language are unrelated...
> The food, the languages, the music were essentially Indian
Not quite true.. Most of Pakistani cuisine has Afghan-Turkic-Iranian roots... a
legacy of Muslim rule in South Asia... which got 'Indianized' due to the
greater usage of spices (e.g. pulao, biryani, kebab, nihari, haleem, naan,
kofta, korma, .... ) .... this is specially true for Pakistani Punjabis,
Sindhis and Muhajirs (also Muslims in India)... whereas Pakistani Pashtuns and
Baluchis have retained their cuisine similar to our western neighbors.... So in
a wider sense Pakistani cuisine is a blend of our western (Afghan-Iranian) and
eastern (Indian) neighbors... depending on the region and people... of which
many have evolved into their own distinct characteristics..... Same is true
with Pakistani music... there are strong Central Asian/Iranian influences (e.g
sitar, violin, tabla, etc) in north Indian/Mohajir (e.g Qawwali) and Punjabi
music... while Pashto, Balochi/Sindhi and other music
are still very much Central Asian....
>Indian movies in Hindi were extremely popular.
India's bollywood film industry uses Hindi but it is very much Urduized
Hindi... Anyway, while Indian movies are popular is some segments of Pakistani
urbanites.. an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis do not watch or have never
watched Indian movies... Indian movies are also popular in Arab countries...
Far East... South Africa.. etc..
>Only by eliminating languages that are common with India such as Punjabi,
>Sindhi and Urdu which have Hindi and Sanskrit
Punjabi is only common with India's small state of East Punjab... even then
Pakistani Punjabi (western) and Indian Punjabi (eastern) are quite distinct
with different dialects... different scripts (Arabic/Persian vs Devangari)...
and vocabulary... Sindhi is only spoken in Pakistan... Urdu evolved from
Persian (also Turkish, Arabic) speaking Muslim rulers with their interaction of
local Khari boli of the Delhi region... Hindi was extracted from
Urdu (de-Persianized/de-Arabized... and Sanskritized.. with adoption of
Devangari script).. Sanskrit, an extinct ancient language, is no doubt the
mother of all north Indian... Other Pakistani languages such as Pashto, Baluchi
are Iranian languages.... derived from ancient Iranian languages...
>Pakistan shares a 5000 year
>plus heritage with India
Pakistan's heritage is a combination of our western (Afghan-Central
Asian-Iranian-Arab) and eastern (Indian) neighbors.... Infact, during 5000
years of the region of Pakistan's history... it remained mostly independent or
part of it's western neighbors... Pakistan was only part of India only under
the Mauryans, Muslims and the British (a total of some 750 years)...
PakPanjabi
about the global language is boloney. Global language comes and goes. At
different time periods there were different global languages, depending on the
political and economic might of a nation. Greek, Roman, Persian, Arabic were
global languages at one time or the other. But
when their power declined so did their language's status of being the global
language. English as the global language is no different from them. Once the
power of the West (US-UK-Canada) declines so will English as the global
language disappear. But what is important is that other nations should cling on
to their languages while these power transitions are taking place, therefore
preserving their nationhood.
jagir...@my-deja.com
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
>
> Punjabi is only common with India's small state of East Punjab...
even then
> Pakistani Punjabi (western) and Indian Punjabi (eastern) are quite
distinct
> with different dialects... different scripts (Arabic/Persian vs
Devangari)...
> and vocabulary...
NOT QUITE TRUE, THE INDIAN PUNJABI SCRIPT IS "GURMUKHI" NOT DEVNAGRI.
Pakistan was only part of India only under
> the Mauryans, Muslims and the British (a total of some 750 years)...
>
DON'T FORGET SIKHS UNDER RANJIT SINGH RULED MOST OF PAKISTAN FOR OVER
50 YEARS ALSO
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
PakPanjabi
>
You are right... thanks for correcting my error...
>DON'T FORGET SIKHS UNDER RANJIT SINGH RULED MOST OF PAKISTAN FOR OVER
>50 YEARS ALSO
Yes indeed... even under half century of Sikh rule... the Sikh empire consisted
of present day W. Punjab, Kashmir and NWFP.... It excluded present day
India....
gan...@my-deja.com
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
>
> >idea of arabic as the sole official language is unworkable.
>
> Perhaps so... it is just an idea... one advantage with it is that it
not the
> native language of any group of Pakistanis... unlike Urdu the mother
tongue
> language of Muhajirs... and it is the language in which the Quran was
Shouldnt that be Mongolian?
The Mongolians picked up Urdu after destroying Islamic central asia,
Iran and Iraq. Mosques were turned into stables according to Islamic
sources.
> revealed... Pakistanis being proud of their religion and sensitive
about
> domination by others ... will no doubtedly accept Arabic more
popularly...
Why not try it or better the real mother language Mongolian?
>
> > arabic is a foreign language.
>
> I disagree... Arabic language is part of our heritage and religion...
It is as
> foreign to Pakistanis as is Hebrew to Jews... Pakistani languages are
strongly
Is it just as close as the old Testament and Torah of Jews is to Qoran?
One finds in the Qoran, mention of key Jewish beliefs/tales including
Abrahman, Gabriel, Jesus, . . . rejection of pork . . . as in Judaism,
and it is at least 2000 years older than Prophet Mohammed.
So why not try making Israeli (another semite language) the national
language of Pakistan (50 yr old Bhiya-Mohajir Sultanate) if Arabic
doesnt go down well.
> influenced by it... same script... much vocabulary...
>
> >even urdu is a foreign language that was developed by hindus to
converse with
> >its mughal rulers. urdu is a mixture of the the then prevalent khari
boli
> >(now evolve into hindi)
> >and persian
>
> Although I am personally not against Urdu being the national
>language... It is
Why am I not surprised Pakijabi or is it another Mohajir-Kanjar
pretending to be a "Paindoo"?
> no doubt the mother tongue of Mohajirs... but Urdu was basically the
popular
> language in all of South Asia during the late period of Muslim rule
and
> throughout the British period... it was the language of communication
between
> the Muslim rulers and the ruled masses (Hindus)... Urdu is indeed
derived from
> Persian (Turkish-Arabic also) mixed with Khari boli of Delhi
> region... It was developed as the Persian (Turkish-Arabic) speaking
Muslim
> rulers who were based around Delhi slowly evolved into Urdu due to
interactions
> with the locals... Infact 'Urdu' is a Turkic word which means military
camp
> (the English word 'horde' is also derived from it)... signifying the
roots of
> it's origin... So in the real sense Urdu is not so foreign to other
> Pakistanis... Hindi was extracted from Urdu during the British era...
Urdu is a Mongrel post-16th century language to begin with: started by
Mongolian-Turkic lost cows in Bhiyaland.
It is a primitive and rude sounding (ka ka ka) language . . . sort of
like Pigeon English.
>
> > pakistan is better off using the regional languges to cary out the
affairs
> >of the provinces
>
> Indeed, all regional languages should be promoted at the local
level.... they
> should be protected and preserved at all costs...
I think the foreign Urdas brought in my Mongolian-Bhiyas (3%) should be
banned altogethor in all the region of Sakasthan (Indus-Ganga country).
>
> >with english as the language of liason.
>
> Why would one choose a language of former colonial masters... who
treated us as
> slaves... never got mixed with the population... never settled in our
land...
> have a totally distinct culture/religion/language/race.... exploited
and robbed
> us... and went back to their homeland on the other side of the
world....
> Atleast Urdu, Arabic, Farsi are part of our heritage, and very close
to our
> culture/race...
I am just wondering if thereis anything not "belonging" to the
Mongolian-Bhiya-Mongrels. Their empire lasted an infinite 175 years
before the Sakas (Punjabis, Jats, Gujars, etc) regained their
power and destroyed it.
Mohajir Bhiyas have a lot of fantasies about Persian, Arabic, etc. and
are always conconcting lineages.
How come Iranians, Afghans and Arabs dont consider your Mongolians
(Mughals) as anything but "scum" ? Their history books and the Iranians
I talk to despise you fellas.
Here is a quick low-down of the real 4000 yrs history of northwest
Sakasthan (and former Saptha Sindhva). Mongolians prior to 15th century
were not here yet! And no one had ever heard of "Pakistan" until 5
decades ago.
Some basic known and verifiable facts of northern southasian history:
1) Southasia has historically been a multi-national/
cultural/ethnic/linguistic region, like Europe or the middle-east. Sir
Winston Churchill very aptly states India's historial and political
reality: "India is merely a geographical expression. It is no more a
single country than the equator."
2) The fantasy of southasia as a "One Hindu Nation" under Brahmanist
rule never existed. For example, the northwest Sakasthan country
(Indus-Ganga region) has been separate +90% of its 3500 year known and
verifiable history (Saka Capital Lion inscriptions at Peshawar and
Mathura state "Sarvasa Sakasthanasa Puyae"; "for the glory of Sakasthani
people"). Even the 10% "togethorness" was under Saka-Buddhist and
Muslim-Afghan/Mogul regimes. A common shared history is a necessary
condition for belonging to the "same nation"!
Sakasthan had its own separate and distinct dynasties including the
Mauryas (100yrs), Satraps(300), Kushanas(280), Jauvalas (150yrs) and
Virkas (220yrs) and the region re-gained political self-rule during the
17-19th century with the rise of Saka power and self-rule in the states
of Lahore, Bharatpur, Rajputanna and Gujarat.
3) Much of so-called "Indian history" is really the "Punjabian history"
from the separate Punjab-Sindh. This history was appropriated by
19-20th century Brahmanist idealogues from regions 1500-2000 kms away
who were keen to invent a "Vedic Aryan lineage" as a result of colonial
racial complexes!
Major periods of Sakasthan's separate history include:
a) Vedic Period of Saptha Sindhva (1500-500 BC).
b) Saka-Gandharan Buddhist (500 BC-900 AD): Gandhara constituted the
Indus-Ganga country and formed the hub of the silk trade routes
connecting central asia, China, the middle east and southasia.
Gandharan universites and centers of learning for religion, philosohpy,
sciences and arts situated at Jalandhar, Moga, Taxila, Sialkot, Ropar,
Mathura, Vedodhara, etc. attracted scholars from all over the known
world.
c)Post Buddhist (post 900 AD): Influx of Brahmanism from south
(Shankarcharya of Malabar) and Islam from north. Local development of
Punjabi Sufism and Sikhism (11-18th century) which are threads of
continuity with the region's humanistic and mystical Gandharan spiritual
and cultural traditions and heritage.
gan...@my-deja.com
gan...@my-deja.com
PakPanjabi
>
Huh?? Mongolian language is completely distinct from Urdu.... Mongolian
language is classified by linguists as an Altaic language whereas Urdu is a
Indo-Aryan language...
>The Mongolians picked up Urdu after destroying Islamic central asia,
>Iran and Iraq.
Mongols slowly adopted Persian language and culture... and Islam in Central
Asia and Iran. They were slowly absorbed among the population as they were
greatly outnumbered by the locals..
>Mosques were turned into stables according to Islamic
>sources.
>
Yes... initially when they invaded and destroyed the Islamic lands. Later on
when they slowly adopted Islam and Persian culture/language... they were great
patrons of Persian language/culture..
>Why not try it or better the real mother language Mongolian?
>
If you are referring to the Mughuls..The name Mughal, writes art historian
Barbara Brend (1991), is an Indian version of Mongal; to dwellers in India, the
term referred to anyone from Central Asia. Racially, the founder of Mughal
empire, Babur was a Turk with a thin stream of Mongol blood in his veins;
therefore, notes Hambly (1968), the term 'Mughal' by which he and his
descendants were known in India was really a misnomer. In Persian, the word
Mughal, always highly pejorative among the civilized inhabitants of Iran or
Mawarannahr, simply means a Mongol. It is clear, however, from Babur's writing
that he considered himself a Turk. Although Babur was descended on his mother's
side from Chingiz Khan's second son, Chaghatai, it is clear that this Mongol
lineage meant less to him than his paternal ancestry which linked him with the
great Turkish conqueror, Timur.
>So why not try making Israeli (another semite language) the national
>language of Pakistan
With that same logic... the old Testament/Torah has stories derived from
ancient Mesopotamian beliefs/tales.. so why shouldnt the Israelis adopt
Sumerian or Akkadian? Or in your Sikhism there are influences from Islam
(monotheism, eating beef, equality, etc), so why dont you Sikhs adopt Arabic,
the language of Quran.. Your idea/logic is laughable.... :)
>Why am I not surprised Pakijabi or is it another Mohajir-Kanjar
>pretending to be a "Paindoo"?
Dont get so paranoid.. believe me majority of Punjabis in Pakistan share my
views.. just because you disagree with me doesnt make me less than Punjabi...
>Urdu is a Mongrel post-16th century language to begin with: started by
>Mongolian-Turkic lost cows in Bhiyaland.
>
Mughals (Iranian Turks) who were very much Persianized... Persian culture,
language, race... had a large number of Persians among them... slowly evolved
Urdu with their spoken Persian mixed with Khari boli.. Strong Persian
vocabulary.. Persian script...
>It is a primitive and rude sounding (ka ka ka) language . . . sort of
>like Pigeon English.
LOL... All non-Urdu speakers that I meet say that it sounds very civilized..
Infact that is one of it's best/famous qualities.. very civil, sweet and
mannered language..
>I think the foreign Urdas brought in my Mongolian-Bhiyas (3%) should be
>banned altogethor in all the region of Sakasthan (Indus-Ganga country).
Well.. if banned as the national language... the people of Karachi still have a
right to it.. after all it is their mother tongue.. but I dont see that
happening Punjabis are fond of Urdu, while keeping Punjabi.
If anyone should worry about anything.. it is you Khalistani Punjabis... you
are losing your Saka heritage... Punjabi language.. My prediction is in 50
years unless you create your separate homeland, you are as good as a
Dasya-Bhiyya... Atleast in Pakistan, we Punjabis are well represented and are
preserving/promoting our culture/language... As far as your dream of
Sakasthana, with states like Gujarat and Maharashta added it should be more
precisely called Patelisthana..
>Their history books and the Iranians
>I talk to despise you fellas.
>
The Iranian-Arab-Afghan (and American) friends that I know always admire the
history of Muslim rule in South Asia.. with architectural marvels like Taj
Mahal, Qutb Minar, Badshahi Mosque, Lal Qila, Shalimar Garden, etc... Great
poetry and literature... Great foods.. Great paintings and arts... etc etc..
who wouldnt...
>Here is a quick low-down of the real 4000 yrs history of northwest
>Sakasthan (and former Saptha Sindhva). Mongolians prior to 15th century
>were not here yet! And no one had ever heard of "Pakistan" until 5
>decades ago.
The name/country of Pakistan might be 50 some years old.. but the region and
people of Pakistan have always been separate from India.. Except for the
Mauryan, Muslim and British rule it was never part of India.. It was either
independent or part of it's western neighbors... So as far as you and your
people are concerned.. too bad that you share some aspects of history, culture
and race with us (most Sikhs migrated to India from West Punjab)... but you all
are doomed... your destiny lies with Bhiyyastan-Gangaland-Hathistan-Cowland. I
can only hope that your people will restart your struggle for Khalistan, get
independence and later merge with us... Pakistan.. the closest thing to
Sakasthan.
gan...@my-deja.com
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> >Shouldnt that be Mongolian?
> >
>
> Huh?? Mongolian language is completely distinct from Urdu....
Mongolian
> language is classified by linguists as an Altaic language whereas Urdu
is a
> Indo-Aryan language...
I know - isnt the mother language of Mohajirs really Mongolians,
although now they have forgotten it :}
Urdu is a 16th century pigeon-dialect of Khari invented by
Mongolian-Turks settling in UP. It hardly qualifies as a "natural
language" despite all the Mohajir-Mongolian propaganda and promotion.
Sort of like calling the same Mongols trying to communicate with the
Russians in broken-pigeon-Russi-Mongi during 13th century.
>
> >The Mongolians picked up Urdu after destroying Islamic central asia,
> >Iran and Iraq.
>
> Mongols slowly adopted Persian language and culture... and Islam in
Central
> Asia and Iran. They were slowly absorbed among the population as they
were
> greatly outnumbered by the locals..
But a little "Mongolian dab" will do-ya.
Even after all the dasya-bhiya-gentetic infusion, you leader Mushaffar
(who usurped the Punjabi Generals and regime) still hasnt lost that
Mongolian squint.
He actually looks more like your avergae run-of-the-mill Bhiya than
anything. In the tv footage, they showed his family & parents. The
father was definately "mongolian-bhiya looking" and the mother was
wearing a dravidic SAREEEE!!!
>
> >Here is a quick low-down of the real 4000 yrs history of northwest
> >Sakasthan (and former Saptha Sindhva). Mongolians prior to 15th
century
> >were not here yet! And no one had ever heard of "Pakistan" until 5
> >decades ago.
>
> The name/country of Pakistan might be 50 some years old.. but the
region and
> people of Pakistan have always been separate from India..
"Pakistan" in a Mohajir-Bhiya imperialist invention. Its proper name in
the "Mohajir Bhiya Sultanate" - just like its illegitimate sister is
really the "Brahmanist Bhiya GowhMata"!!!
gan...@my-deja.com
. Saka High Command.
PUNJABIAT: CONTINUITY OF SAKA-GANDHARAN CIVILIZATION (500 BC-present)
(by SakaChella)
Sections:
- Saka-Gandharan Civilization, Punjabi Sufism and Sikhism
- Role of Sufism and Sikhism in the
Saka Political Revival (17-19th century)
SAKA CIVILIZATION, PUNJABI SUFISM AND SIKHISM
The empires and dynasties in Sakasthan (500BC-1000AD) created by Sakas
such as Mauryas, Satraps, Jauvalas, Kushanas, Virkas were essentially
alliances and coalitions that Saka-Vedic tribes formed among themselves.
Somewhat like what happened in Punjab with the rise of the Khalsa in the
17-19th century.
The roots and heritage of Sikhism and Punjabi Sufism lie in the
Sakasthan (country between Indus-Ganga rivers) region's earlier
Saka-Gandharan Buddhist civilization. Punjabi Sufis and Gurus merged
the country's mystical, unorthodox and humanistic
Saka-Gandharan-Buddhist traditions, ideals, philosophy and culture with
certain egalitarian and universal aspects of Islamic theology. Both
Punjabi Sufis and Gurus preached in the ancient Saka-Vedic derived
Punjabi dialects during the 11-17th centuries and the hyms of 16 Sufis
and mystical bhagats are contained in the 1400 pages of the Granth.
Sufi Pirs were personal friends of Gurus and the foundation stone of
Golden Temple was laid by Sufi Mir Mian. Ranjit Singh rebuilt the
masoleum of the 11th century Sufi Pir Shakarganj in marble in Lahore and
spent state revenue on Sufi, Sikh and Hindu shrines. This policy
personified the traditional tolerant, open, pluralist, unorthodox and
humanistic outlook of Sakas towards religion and spirituality since the
times of Ashaka Maurya - a Buddhist. The Mauryan empire (324-232 BC)
began from Punjab and expanded to cover most of the subcontinent.
Even the names of Sufi and Sikh Pirs/Sants from the 11-18th centuries,
along with location of sacred sites, core theology and nature of
Sufi-Sikh institutions, betrays the Saka-Gandharan-Buddhist-Islamic
synthesis of Punjabiyat in both its cultural as well as spiritual
aspects.
Like Buddhism, Punjabi Sufism and Sikhi acknowledges "houma" (false
pride) as the source of personal and collective misery (dukha, "Nanak
dukhia subh sansar"); reject Brahmanical stone and animal worship; and
the notion of a hereditary priesthood. "Houma" could be reduced with
"seva" (service to mankind) and reflection and meditation on the ONE
SUPREME GOD. Many of the Gurumuki characters are borrowed from earlier
Gandharan scripts in use during Gandharan Buddhist period
(400BC-1000AD). The Sufis and Gurus rejected the use of Devnagri - a
Brahmanical script from Gangasthan created during the 11th century AD to
monopolize and corrupt the previously existing Saka-Vedic-Buddhist
literature after the demise of Buddhism.
Both Punjabi Sufism and Sikhism uphold the oneness of divinity and
humankind ("Ik-noor seh subh jag upjaya") and opposed religious
orthodoxy, fanaticism, intolerance and excessive ritual (manifestations
of "houma", falsehood and corruption).
Even then names of Sikh and Sufi saints known as "Babas" betray their
Gandharan-Buddhist lineage (Buddha Shah, Bulle Shah, Buddha Singh,
Gandha Singh, etc.) and major Sikh-Sufi shrines/darbars/centers were set
on locations sacred to Gandharan Buddhism (e.g. Punja Sahib, Pak Pakkan,
Multan, Lahore). Arab chroniclers in Sindh during 8-9th century refer
to the rulers and armies of the region as the "warriors of Buddha" and
the Buddha himself is known as "SakaMuni" in Saka inscriptions, coins
and texts from the Satrapa, Maurya, Kushana, Jauvala and Virka empires.
Even the traditonal Punjabi, Haryanvi, Rajasthani and Gujarati dress
(e.g. kurta pajama, salwar kameez, khagara, uchkin, pagri) is identical
to the costumes found on the coins, inscriptions and statues of Saka
Emporers and dynasties.
The Gandharan-Buddhist connection even resounds in the Sufi-Sikh
institutions of the 11-18th century. The Pir/Guru institution and
sucesssorship is similar to the concept of Gandharan Buddhist "lammas".
Langar (free food) for the sangat (Buddhist "sangha") existed in Sufi
centers and still continues in Gurdwaras. The Saka-Buddhist centers of
religion and learning in Sakasthan (e.g. Nalanda University) had a
similar social philosopy. For example, Nalanda was open to all segments
of society and offered free education. The Satrapas, Kushanas, Jauvalas
and Virkas patronized Buddhism (combined with Saka Sun worship) and
spent vast resources to support Gandharan Buddhist centers, universities
and dharamsalas.
The Saka kings, entitled Shahi, were great patron of the Gandharan arts
and literature which excelled to new heights during the Kushana period.
Many of the Gurus and Pirs are refered to in Punjabi as
"Sachi-Pad-Shahi" ("Kings of the true path"). The art of kirtan,
shabad, thadi-jathas, qwali found in Punjabi Sufism/Sikhism is descended
from the Saka-Gandharan artistic and musical traditions. These
traditions from ancient Sakasthan, preserved by the Punjabi Sufis and
Sikhs, were later borrowed by Mogul courts and composers of the 15-16th
century.
ROLE OF SUFISM AND SIKHISM IN THE SAKA POLITICAL REVIVAL
(17-19th century)
So-called Punjabi "Muslims" really entered "Punjabi Sufism" under the
evangalism of the Sufis during 11-15th century - not orthodox Islam as
in the lands conquered by Arab imperialists (e.g. Iran, central asia,
Egypt, etc.). The later Mogul regimes of Jahangir and Aurengzeb were
trying to stamp out unorthodox and mystical Sufism as well as Sikhism in
Punjab. Aurengzeb had all the head Pirs of Punjabi-Sufi centers
executed and their centers destroyed along with the execution of Guru
Tegh Bahadur.
After the destruction of the Mogul Empire, 30-40% of the Punjabi
army/administration was made up of Punjabis of Sufi lineage whose
ethnicity is Saka - just like Punjabi Sikhs. They all lived in the same
villages and belonged to the same ancient Saka-Vedic tribes, clans and
"bratheri" (brotherhood).
Mogul historians (e.g. Nur Mohammed) and eyewitness accounts from the
18th century show "Punjabi Muslims" joining the Saka Political Revival
and Punjabi independence movement in large numbers as allies or converts
to the Khalsa. First-hand Mogul accounts of such alliances and
conversions go back to 1708-1715 when Banda Bahadur first freed Punjab
from the Mogul-yoke. An even earlier example follows from 1705, when
during the Mongol attack on Anandpur fort. Sufi Pir Buddha Shah of
nearby Sardhana marshalled over 1200 Punjabi Sufi-Muslims to fight with
the outnumbered Guru Gobind Singh as he was being pursued by a large
Mogul force allied with Hindu hill rajas. During the battles that
ensued, Pir Buddha Shah lost three of his own brothers and uncles.
By the 1730s, the 12 misls (republics) under Punjabi self-rule had
arisen in Punjab with Mongolian control confined to a few garrisoned
cities. Outside the perimeters of these cities, Mogul control had
always been lax or even non-existent. Settled far away in Gangasthan,
the Moguls were content to let the villages and towns in Sakasthan carry
on their business as long as they paid the annual tax. Frequently a
military campaign was required to extract even the "rakhi" tax. By the
early 18th century, the loose control had degenerated into open revolt
throughout Sakasthan.
In the 1790s, even the primary Afghan ally of the Moguls, Zabita Khan
Rohilla, from the Uttarkhand region temporarily converted to Sikhism -
until the Gangasthani nawabs bribed him back. Thus, began the dogral:
"Zabita Khan, Guru dha Chella. Adha Sikh adha Rohilla".
The Saka Khalsa-Sufi movement organized independence struggle in Punjab
transpired into a larger indepedence movement from the Mogul empire and
a socio-economic revolt against a foreign Mogolian governing class. It
attracted support from all martial segments of Punjabis - particulary
the zamindari/agrarian class who had the most to gain: political rule,
taxation rights, jagirs, more land, status, etc.
Despite the 20th century Mohajir-Bhiya and Brahmanist historical fraud
and ONE-TWO Nation dogmas imported from Gangasthan, Muslims, Sikhs and
Hindus of Punjab (and Sakasthan) all share the same Saka clans and
ethnicity. Punjabis from all religious affiliations had extremely high
incentives to free Punjab from the 175 year Mongolian empire in
southasia. Some converted while others joined their Sikh counterparts
as allies.
During the rise of the misls, consolidation and expansion of Punjabi Raj
during 1708-1847, 30-40% of the Punjabi
army/administration/officers/courtiers were Punjabis of Muslims. Two
of Ranjit Singh's top five generals were Muslims of Saka background
(Jat/Gujar). Same applied to his Foreign Minister, Commader of Police
and Personal Physician. Meanwhile, the Mongolian-Turks during their 175
year occupation of Punjab had treated Punjabi Muslims as conquered
subjects - not even 1% of Mogul regime was made up of Punjabi Muslims.
The Mongolians trusted their loyal Hindus from the desert and hills more
and recruited over +50% of their soldiers and administration from them.
During the 17-19th centuries, Sakasthan had acheived its independence
and self rule and was politically consolidating when it clashed with the
British empire helped by their bhiya allies. At the turn of the 19th
century, the northern Saka states of Lahore, Bharatpur, Patiala,
Bhawalpur and Dholpur alone could field a Europeanized army of +300,000
men trained by Napoleonic generals like Ventura, Avitable and Allard.
The British were initially defeated by the Jats of Bharatpur and by the
Punjabis at Ferozpur and forced to retreat.
The 2500 year history of Sakasthan bears out that under Saka self-rule,
Sakasthan has always been the centre of asian civilization,
international trade, philosophy, religion, sciences and arts.
"Sarvasa Sakasthanasa Puyae" (For the glory of Sakasthanis)
Capital Lion Inscriptions at Saka Twin Capitals of Mathura & Peshawar.
chaud...@my-deja.com
complain about.If you dont know Punjabi then you cannot survive in
Punjab and the Pakistani army/navy/airforce/govt. Whoever is
complaining about Punjabi language being oppressed in Pakistan is dumb
and a fool.
Mo
In article <7ulb9a$ovq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, gan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <19991019235425...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
> pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> > >Shouldnt that be Mongolian?
> > >
> >
> > Huh?? Mongolian language is completely distinct from Urdu....
> Mongolian
> > language is classified by linguists as an Altaic language
> whereas Urdu
> is a
> > Indo-Aryan language...
> I know - isnt the mother language of Mohajirs really Mongolians,
> although now they have forgotten it :}
> Urdu is a 16th century pigeon-dialect of Khari invented by
> Mongolian-Turks settling in UP. It hardly qualifies as a "natural
> language" despite all the Mohajir-Mongolian propaganda and
> promotion.
> Sort of like calling the same Mongols trying to communicate with
> the
> Russians in broken-pigeon-Russi-Mongi during 13th century.
> >
> > >The Mongolians picked up Urdu after destroying Islamic central
> asia,
> > >Iran and Iraq.
> >
> > Mongols slowly adopted Persian language and culture... and Islam
> in
> Central
> > Asia and Iran. They were slowly absorbed among the population as
> they
> were
> > greatly outnumbered by the locals..
> But a little "Mongolian dab" will do-ya.
> Even after all the dasya-bhiya-gentetic infusion, you leader
> Mushaffar
> (who usurped the Punjabi Generals and regime) still hasnt lost that
> Mongolian squint.
> He actually looks more like your avergae run-of-the-mill Bhiya than
> anything. In the tv footage, they showed his family & parents.
> The
> father was definately "mongolian-bhiya looking" and the mother was
> wearing a dravidic SAREEEE!!!
> >
> > >Here is a quick low-down of the real 4000 yrs history of
> northwest
> > >Sakasthan (and former Saptha Sindhva). Mongolians prior to 15th
> century
> > >were not here yet! And no one had ever heard of "Pakistan"
> until 5
> > >decades ago.
> >
> > The name/country of Pakistan might be 50 some years old.. but the
> region and
> > people of Pakistan have always been separate from India..
> "Pakistan" in a Mohajir-Bhiya imperialist invention. Its proper
> name in
> the "Mohajir Bhiya Sultanate" - just like its illegitimate sister
> is
> really the "Brahmanist Bhiya GowhMata"!!!
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Mo
In article <7ulbkf$pa9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, gan...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Here is the definitive word on Punjabiat, Sufism & Sikhism from
> the . .
> .. Saka High Command.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
PakPanjabi
>although now they have forgotten it :}
When the Mughals invaded South Asia, they were already speaking Persian and
practising Persian culture.. in it's purest form. Anyway, as noted historians
have proved it, Mughals were actually Iranian Turks, 'Mughal' (Persian/Indian
for Mongol) is a misnomer. Besides, Mongols had invaded Central Asia/Iran about
300 years before the Mughals invaded South Asia, therefore whatever Mongol
invaders (they were greatly outnumbered by the local populations) settled in
Iran/Central Asia, in a period of three centuries they had been absorbed into
the local populations and completely Persianized/Islamized. Furthermore, prior
to Mughal invasion of South Asia, other Muslim invaders were already ruling
most of South Asia (e.g Delhi Sultanate) who were purely Afghans and Turks, and
just like the Mughals great patrons of Persian language/culture. So in a wider
sense all these Muslim rulers were Saka-Muslims since they had Saka language,
culture, and race... i.e. Persian/Iranian.
>Urdu is a 16th century pigeon-dialect of Khari invented by
>Mongolian-Turks settling in UP. It hardly qualifies as a "natural
>language"
The Persian speaking Afghan-Turk-Mughal rulers invented Urdu due to the
evolutionary interaction with the local Khari boli of Delhi region. It consists
of very strong Persian vocabulary and the same Persian script. As with any
other language, Urdu developed based on the socio-political environment. Just
like English developed due to the evolutionary interaction of Germanic, Celtic
and Latin languages... so did Urdu with the interaction of Persian, Khari
(derived from Sanskrit), Turkic, and Arabic languages. And it is
internationally accepted by linguists that Urdu is a well structured,
disciplined, civil-mannered language.
>Sort of like calling the same Mongols trying to communicate with the
>Russians in broken-pigeon-Russi-Mongi during 13th century.
Actually if you read Russian history... Mongols that invaded Russia... the
Golden horde... later on completely adopted Russian language, culture, and
religion, and got absorbed within the population. Look at Yeltsin, he has some
Mongol blood, but he is a pure Russian.
>Even after all the dasya-bhiya-gentetic infusion, you leader Mushaffar
>(who usurped the Punjabi Generals and regime) still hasnt lost that
>Mongolian squint.
>
>He actually looks more like your avergae run-of-the-mill Bhiya than
>anything. In the tv footage, they showed his family & parents. The
>father was definately "mongolian-bhiya looking" and the mother was
>wearing a dravidic SAREEEE!!!
Musharraf is actually a migrant from Delhi (born in Delhi but raised in
Pakistan).. a Mohajir... son of a bhiyya family... with the looks of
Iranian/Aryan-Saka mixed with the Dravidoid-Australoid.. he is in the process
of becoming Punjabi... as he mostly speaks Punjabi... lives in Punjab...
Punjabi generals are still predominant in the military... as with any other
field.. because they are the majority in Pakistan.. BTW, what is with this
looks thingi... as far as I know many Punjabis look just like bhiyyas.. though
an average Punjabi is much more Caucasoid than an average Australoid looking
Indian-bhiyya... Saree is only worn by 1% of Pakistanis... mostly by some
Muhajirs (specially the migrants themselves)..
>"Pakistan" in a Mohajir-Bhiya imperialist invention. Its proper name in
>the "Mohajir Bhiya Sultanate" -
Pakistan movement might had been popular among Urdu-speaking north Indian
Muslims (Mohajirs) but native Pakistanis played a major part in it. Muhammad
Iqbal hailing from Kashmir conceived the idea, Sardar Muhammad Gul Khan
probably of Kushan ancestory from NWFP first suggested it, Muhammad Ali Jinnah
descended from Lohana Sindhi tribe provided the leadership, and Chaudhry Rehmat
Ali of Jat ancestory from Punjab gave the name. Even Liaquat Ali Khan was
descendent of Rajput convert. Furthermore majority of Mohajirs themselves are
descended from Afghans-Iranians-Turks as they settled as invaders, refugees and
opportunity seekers during Muslim rule in north India. So all in all Pakistan
is a Saka re-creation which they have historically been culturally,
politically, geographically, racially, religiously, separate from India. Even
today, Pakistani govt, military, institutions, businesses, etc are run and
maintained by 95% of Pakistanis of local origin... Pakistan is the closest
thing to Sakasthan...
A piece of advice is... if you want the independent Sakas (Pakistanis) to help
liberate Sakas in occupied Sakasthan (northwest India)... do not mess with
them... And also forget about Gujarat and Maharashta, they have the least Saka
heritage/culture/race.. they are as good as Bhiyya-Dravidoid-Australoid.. and
the real Sakas (Pakistanis) wouldnt want to live in a united Sakasthan that
would turn into a Patelistan stinky Dasyaland with the rat-like breeding
Gujaratis and Maharashtis. No offence intended...
Jamil Raza
> >Why am I not surprised Pakijabi or is it another Mohajir-Kanjar
> >pretending to be a "Paindoo"?
>
> Dont get so paranoid.. believe me majority of Punjabis in Pakistan share my
> views.. just because you disagree with me doesnt make me less than Punjabi...
>
> >Urdu is a Mongrel post-16th century language to begin with: started by
> >Mongolian-Turkic lost cows in Bhiyaland.
> >
>
> Mughals (Iranian Turks) who were very much Persianized... Persian culture,
> language, race... had a large number of Persians among them... slowly evolved
> Urdu with their spoken Persian mixed with Khari boli.. Strong Persian
> vocabulary.. Persian script...
Urdu was only adopted by the Mughals when the Mughal Emperor's "Empire"
stretched
from one end of his dilapidated fort to the other. Even then Persian
was the premier language of court, the language of culture and
sophistcation.
The adoption Urdu was a belated concession to the plebian Hindustani
masses by
the then weak Mughal "ruling" class.
> >It is a primitive and rude sounding (ka ka ka) language . . . sort of
> >like Pigeon English.
>
> LOL... All non-Urdu speakers that I meet say that it sounds very civilized..
> Infact that is one of it's best/famous qualities.. very civil, sweet and
> mannered language..
..yawn...we've all heard this one about a squillion times before. I've
yet
to meet a Sindhi or Pakhtun who was impressesd with this "civil, sweet
and
mannered" language. In Pakistan it is only Iqbal's Punjabi victims
who find it so.
> If anyone should worry about anything.. it is you Khalistani Punjabis... you
> are losing your Saka heritage... Punjabi language.. My prediction is in 50
> years unless you create your separate homeland, you are as good as a
> Dasya-Bhiyya... Atleast in Pakistan, we Punjabis are well represented and are
> preserving/promoting our culture/language...
LOL! What a fucking moron. Punjabiat is being put the sword in
Pakistan. Only the Sikhs have kept it alive.
> The Iranian-Arab-Afghan (and American) friends that I know always admire the
> history of Muslim rule in South Asia.. with architectural marvels like Taj
> Mahal, Qutb Minar, Badshahi Mosque, Lal Qila, Shalimar Garden, etc... Great
> poetry and literature... Great foods.. Great paintings and arts... etc etc..
> who wouldnt...
Yes, but you don't simply "admire" it, do you?. You claim it as your OWN
heritage. Get something into your thick Iqbalian head: we were the
colonised slaves of the Ghauris and Mughals, not their equals. We
played no part in their rule or their civilisation. Our only
relationship
with them was one of Master and Slave.
> >Here is a quick low-down of the real 4000 yrs history of northwest
> >Sakasthan (and former Saptha Sindhva). Mongolians prior to 15th century
> >were not here yet! And no one had ever heard of "Pakistan" until 5
> >decades ago.
>
> The name/country of Pakistan might be 50 some years old.. but the region and
> people of Pakistan have always been separate from India.. Except for the
> Mauryan, Muslim and British rule it was never part of India.. It was either
> independent or part of it's western neighbors... So as far as you and your
> people are concerned.. too bad that you share some aspects of history, culture
> and race with us (most Sikhs migrated to India from West Punjab)...
Actually, they are almost exactly the same people as us.
>but you all
> are doomed... your destiny lies with Bhiyyastan-Gangaland-Hathistan-Cowland. I
> can only hope that your people will restart your struggle for Khalistan, get
> independence and later merge with us... Pakistan.. the closest thing to
> Sakasthan.
Pakistan = Sakasthan? More like Head-rammed-up-the-arse-isthan.
Jamil
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Urdu was only adopted by the Mughals when the Mughal Emperor's "Empire"
> stretched from one end of his dilapidated fort to the other. Even then Persian
> was the premier language of court, the language of culture and The adoption Urdu
> was a belated concession to the plebian Hindustani masses by
> the then weak Mughal "ruling" class.
The term Urdu itself is Turkish (from the same root as "horde") as were titles like
Khan, Beg and many words in Hindustani. Turkish words started being used in India
with the arrival of Kushans.
Momin
Jamil Raza wrote:
> PakPanjabi wrote:
>
> > >Why am I not surprised Pakijabi or is it another Mohajir-Kanjar
> > >pretending to be a "Paindoo"?
> >
> > Dont get so paranoid.. believe me majority of Punjabis in Pakistan share my
> > views.. just because you disagree with me doesnt make me less than Punjabi...
> >
> > >Urdu is a Mongrel post-16th century language to begin with: started by
> > >Mongolian-Turkic lost cows in Bhiyaland.
> > >
> >
> > Mughals (Iranian Turks) who were very much Persianized... Persian culture,
> > language, race... had a large number of Persians among them... slowly evolved
> > Urdu with their spoken Persian mixed with Khari boli.. Strong Persian
> > vocabulary.. Persian script...
>
> Urdu was only adopted by the Mughals when the Mughal Emperor's "Empire"
> stretched
> from one end of his dilapidated fort to the other. Even then Persian
> was the premier language of court, the language of culture and
> sophistcation.
> The adoption Urdu was a belated concession to the plebian Hindustani
> masses by
> the then weak Mughal "ruling" class.
>
> > >It is a primitive and rude sounding (ka ka ka) language . . . sort of
> > >like Pigeon English.
> >
> > LOL... All non-Urdu speakers that I meet say that it sounds very civilized..
> > Infact that is one of it's best/famous qualities.. very civil, sweet and
> > mannered language..
>
> ..yawn...we've all heard this one about a squillion times before. I've
> yet
> to meet a Sindhi or Pakhtun who was impressesd with this "civil, sweet
> and
> mannered" language. In Pakistan it is only Iqbal's Punjabi victims
> who find it so.
>
> > If anyone should worry about anything.. it is you Khalistani Punjabis... you
> > are losing your Saka heritage... Punjabi language.. My prediction is in 50
> > years unless you create your separate homeland, you are as good as a
> > Dasya-Bhiyya... Atleast in Pakistan, we Punjabis are well represented and are
> > preserving/promoting our culture/language...
>
> LOL! What a fucking moron. Punjabiat is being put the sword in
> Pakistan. Only the Sikhs have kept it alive.
>
> > The Iranian-Arab-Afghan (and American) friends that I know always admire the
> > history of Muslim rule in South Asia.. with architectural marvels like Taj
> > Mahal, Qutb Minar, Badshahi Mosque, Lal Qila, Shalimar Garden, etc... Great
> > poetry and literature... Great foods.. Great paintings and arts... etc etc..
> > who wouldnt...
>
> Yes, but you don't simply "admire" it, do you?. You claim it as your OWN
> heritage. Get something into your thick Iqbalian head: we were the
> colonised slaves of the Ghauris and Mughals, not their equals. We
> played no part in their rule or their civilisation. Our only
> relationship
> with them was one of Master and Slave.
>
> > >Here is a quick low-down of the real 4000 yrs history of northwest
> > >Sakasthan (and former Saptha Sindhva). Mongolians prior to 15th century
> > >were not here yet! And no one had ever heard of "Pakistan" until 5
> > >decades ago.
> >
> > The name/country of Pakistan might be 50 some years old.. but the region and
> > people of Pakistan have always been separate from India.. Except for the
> > Mauryan, Muslim and British rule it was never part of India.. It was either
> > independent or part of it's western neighbors... So as far as you and your
> > people are concerned.. too bad that you share some aspects of history, culture
> > and race with us (most Sikhs migrated to India from West Punjab)...
>
> Actually, they are almost exactly the same people as us.
>
> >but you all
> > are doomed... your destiny lies with Bhiyyastan-Gangaland-Hathistan-Cowland. I
> > can only hope that your people will restart your struggle for Khalistan, get
> > independence and later merge with us... Pakistan.. the closest thing to
> > Sakasthan.
>
> Pakistan = Sakasthan? More like Head-rammed-up-the-arse-isthan.
>
> Jamil
Way to go brother Jamil :-))
PakPanjabi
>titles like
>Khan, Beg and many words in Hindustani. Turkish words started being used in
>India
>with the arrival of Kushans.
>
You are right, but Kushans were an Indo-European people who initially spoke
Tocharian language (now extinct), therefore it is very unlikely that they were
responsible for bringing Turkic (an Altaic language) words to south Asia...
White Huns (Epthalites-Hunas) were probably the first ones.. but while some
authorities say that they were a Turkic people... there is stronger probability
of them being Iranian people (Iranian Huns).. One thing is for sure, that the
Turkic Muslim invaders were truely responsible for bringing those Turkic words
to South Asia... Khan, Urdu, yes even Beg (e.g 'ozBEGistan'--Uzbekistan)
Jamil Raza
>
> Jamil Raza wrote:
>
> > Urdu was only adopted by the Mughals when the Mughal Emperor's "Empire"
> > stretched from one end of his dilapidated fort to the other. Even then Persian
> > was a belated concession to the plebian Hindustani masses by
> > the then weak Mughal "ruling" class.
>
> Khan, Beg and many words in Hindustani. Turkish words started being used in India
> with the arrival of Kushans.
You're correct. But the word "Urdu" has only very recently come to be
applied
to this language. During the days of the degenerated Mughal Durbar in
the
18th century it was known as "Hindi" or "Rektha". Even famous "Urdu"
poets
like Mir Taqi Mir and Mirza Glib refered to it as "Rektha". They also
looked
down on it as the crude language of the plebian masses of Delhi. This
attitude
persisted to Iqbal's time. Whenever Iqbal was trying his best to be
profound
like real philosphers like Hazrat Schopenhauer he wrote in Persian, not
Urdu.
Jamil
Jamil Raza
> Well.. if banned as the national language... the people of Karachi still have a
> right to it.. after all it is their mother tongue..
Really? So you Urdas have a right to your mother tongue in Sindh? Do you
have the right to your mother tongue in the United States? No. In the
United States you learn and teach your children English and timidly
follow the
majority community. So what's so different about Sindh? The difference
is that there
are no dumb Paindoos in the United States that you can brainwash and
manipulate
to bully the Sindhi nation into submission.
You Urdas were welcomed by the Sindhi nation in your hour of need. And
you repay this kindess by launching a massive assault on Sindh's culture
and a massive loot of
Sindh's wealth.
Karachi isn't a suburb of Delhi. It is the jewel in the crown of Sindh.
Get that
into your thick supposedly "PaRay likhay" heads.
Jamil
PakPanjabi
>have the right to your mother tongue in the United States?
When a majority of a region attains a particular identity separate from
others... it is only democratic that the wishes of the majority be heard...
>The difference
>is that there
>are no dumb Paindoos in the United States that you can brainwash and
>manipulate
>to bully the Sindhi nation into submission.
Dont get so paranoid... Calling me a Mohajir, the F word, propagandist, ...
cannot change my Punjabi identity.. its a free world... this is not some rural
Sindh.. where a wadera can forcefully impose his propagandist views on the
masses... If anything the misery among Sindhis is caused by your feudal
lords.... it is a shame that rural Sindh is dominated by medieval waderageri
(feudalism) where Sindhi masses are exploited and oppressed (like slaves e.g
haris). Atleast in my Punjab feudalism is least found and has significantly
reduced...
>You Urdas were welcomed by the Sindhi nation in your hour of need. And
>you repay this kindess by launching a massive assault on Sindh's culture
It will take time for Mohajirs to get absorbed in the Sindhi mainstream..
depending on the socio-political environment, these evolutionary transitions
take centuries if not decades, sometimes even creating new identities.
Throughout Sindh's history many different waves of migrants came and settled in
Sindh who were either absorbed into the mainstream or were responsible for
bringing new cultures, races, language. Aryas, Sakas, Hunas are few examples to
mention. And Mohajirs are no different from them....
>Karachi isn't a suburb of Delhi. It is the jewel in the crown of Sindh.
Karachi has nothing to do with Delhi.. The fact is 55-60% of Karachi consists
of Mohajirs, 35-40% are Punjabis/Pathan/Baluchis, and only 5-10% are Sindhis.
But the most important fact about Karachi is that they all speak Urdu, it is
their mother tongue or has become one. Btw, Karachi was part of Baluchistan
(Khanate of Kalat) until the Talpurs invaded it and made it part of Sindh in
1796 AD.
gan...@my-deja.com
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> >The term Urdu itself is Turkish (from the same root as "horde") as
were
> >titles like
> >Khan, Beg and many words in Hindustani. Turkish words started being
used in
> >India
> >with the arrival of Kushans.
> >
>
spoke
> Tocharian language (now extinct), therefore it is very unlikely that
they were
> responsible for bringing Turkic (an Altaic language) words to south
Asia...
Correct. Kushanas are Scythian like the Sakas.
Kushanas used the title "Shahi" for King and were as different from the
mongoloid turks as Bhiyas are from the Burmese. The coins of Kajula -
founder of Kushana dynastry - show him in typical Punjabi garb: turban,
uchkin, kurta-pajama/salwar-kammez, etc.
Kushanas did not use the term "Urdu" - a 15-16th century term.
> White Huns (Epthalites-Hunas) were probably the first ones.. but while
some
> authorities say that they were a Turkic people... there is stronger
probability
> of them being Iranian people (Iranian Huns).. One thing is for sure,
that the
> Turkic Muslim invaders were truely responsible for bringing those
Turkic words
> to South Asia... Khan, Urdu, yes even Beg (e.g
'ozBEGistan'--Uzbekistan)
>
gan...@my-deja.com
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> >You Urdas were welcomed by the Sindhi nation in your hour of need.
And
> >you repay this kindess by launching a massive assault on Sindh's
culture
>
You are no "Punjabi".
You are a anti-Punjabi Mongolian-bhiya boot-licker: a "Urdajabi" at best
and a "Gangajabi" at worse.
Both had no role in the history of Saptha Sindhva, Sakasthan or even
Persia, Arabia, etc until Chengis Khan decided to devastate these areas
in 12th century.
Now every thing in central asia, Persia, southasia belongs to your
lunatics!
What tribe in punjab do you claim ancestory?
gan...@my-deja.com
ee...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Jamil Raza) wrote:
> PakPanjabi wrote:
> > >Urdu is a Mongrel post-16th century language to begin with: started
by
> > >Mongolian-Turkic lost cows in Bhiyaland.
> > >
> >
> > Mughals (Iranian Turks) who were very much Persianized... Persian
>culture,
Mughals/Mongols are primarily from Mongolia. Why are your guys denying
your heritage and ethnicity? Are you ashamed of it?
> > language, race... had a large number of Persians among them...
slowly evolved
> > Urdu with their spoken Persian mixed with Khari boli.. Strong
Persian
> > vocabulary.. Persian script...
So called "Persian script" is Arabic script modified with 4 extra
characters. They got it when the Arabs connquered them :}
>
> Actually, they are almost exactly the same people as us.
>
> >but you all
> > are doomed... your destiny lies with
Bhiyyastan-Gangaland-Hathistan-Cowland. I
> > can only hope that your people will restart your struggle for
Khalistan, get
> > independence and later merge with us... Pakistan.. the closest thing
to
> > Sakasthan.
>
> Pakistan = Sakasthan? More like Head-rammed-up-the-arse-isthan.
>
> Jamil
Good one Jamil. Pakistan, as we all know, is really a "Mohajir
Sultanate" the Brits handed over to the Bhiya-Mohajirs on a silver
platter in 1947.
The other half of 2500 yr old Sakasthan, was given to their blood
brothers - the 7% Brahmanist Bhiyas and their kirar fan-club in
Hattisthan (who did not rule an inch before British came).
Gangu scriptures themselves "forbid Brahmins from the . . . land of five
rivers . . . Vahika-desa".
PakPanjabi
>Pakistan. Only the Sikhs have kept it alive.
What a joke... while Punjabis are prosperously thriving and independent in
Pakistan... it is the Sikhs who are experiencing brutal genocide and occupation
in India...
Jamil Raza
>
> >Urdas have a right to your mother tongue in Sindh? Do you
> >have the right to your mother tongue in the United States?
>
> When a majority of a region attains a particular identity separate from
> others... it is only democratic that the wishes of the majority be heard...
Did you tell the Sindhi nation that before accepting their
hospitality?
> Dont get so paranoid... Calling me a Mohajir, the F word, propagandist, ...
> cannot change my Punjabi identity..
Whatever makes you happy, Moin.
>its a free world... this is not some rural
> Sindh.. where a wadera can forcefully impose his propagandist views on the
> masses... If anything the misery among Sindhis is caused by your feudal
> lords....
Funny that. Most Sindhis seem convinced that the source of
their misery is Karachi.
>it is a shame that rural Sindh is dominated by medieval waderageri
> (feudalism) where Sindhi masses are exploited and oppressed (like slaves e.g
> haris).
...yawn...Whatever makes you happy, Moin.
> It will take time for Mohajirs to get absorbed in the Sindhi mainstream..
> depending on the socio-political environment, these evolutionary transitions
> take centuries if not decades, sometimes even creating new identities.
> Throughout Sindh's history many different waves of migrants came and settled in
> Sindh who were either absorbed into the mainstream or were responsible for
> bringing new cultures, races, language. Aryas, Sakas, Hunas are few examples to
> mention. And Mohajirs are no different from them....
Oh yes they are. Sindh has never known an invader like the UPites. Even
the
Baluch who wiped out the old Brahmin-Kshatrya social order in Sindh and
placed themselves
on top of Sindh's social hierarchy fully integrated themselves into
the Sindhi nation. The UPite is made of different stuff.
> >Karachi isn't a suburb of Delhi. It is the jewel in the crown of Sindh.
>
> Karachi has nothing to do with Delhi.. The fact is 55-60% of Karachi consists
> of Mohajirs, 35-40% are Punjabis/Pathan/Baluchis, and only 5-10% are Sindhis.
Yes, and the fact that this assortment had better learn to accept is
that Karachi is a part of Sindh. Shame on Punjabis for conspiring with
Muhajirs to bring the Sindhi nation to its knees!
> But the most important fact about Karachi is that they all speak Urdu, it is
> their mother tongue or has become one. Btw, Karachi was part of Baluchistan
> (Khanate of Kalat) until the Talpurs invaded it and made it part of Sindh in
> 1796 AD.
Like I said, whatever makes you happy, Moin.
Jamil
ZJ
"Please keep me out of this verbal battle"!
PakPanjabi
>
>
LOL... paranoia at it's best... who the hell is Moin?
>Even
>the
>Baluch who wiped out the old Brahmin-Kshatrya social order in Sindh and
>placed themselves
>on top of Sindh's social hierarchy fully integrated themselves into
>the Sindhi nation. The UPite is made of different stuff.
>
Get rid of all that hatred and bigotry... it is destructive.. Mohajirs are not
that bad... I have many Mohajir friends.. i have great respect for them...
Even when the Baluchis migrated Sindh and became the ruling elite... they did
not get absorbed among the Sindhi mainstream for atleast a couple of
generations... and they are responsible for bringing many Baluchi cultural
aspects to Sindh (btw other invaders/migrants like Aryas imposed their
culture/language and Aryanized the Sindhis)... The thing is Muhajirs greatly
outnumbered the Baluchis in respect to migration to Sindh.. the greater the
numbers the longer it takes to get absorbed... e.g. Muhajirs in small Sindhi
cities/towns have become Sindhiized, but in large cities like Karachi first
there were very few Sindhi Muslims living at the time of partition (mostly
Sindhi Hindus, Parsis, Sikhs, Jains lived there) and when the Muhajirs settled
there they were living amongst themselves with no Sindhis around, so how could
they be Sindhiized... all this ethnic hatred/prejudice and political
exploitation is making things worse.. and it is both-sided.. however with this
continued trend, there is danger of ethnic separation as well as division of
the province... And you my friend are adding fire to fire..
Btw... Baluchi migrations to Sindh started around the 15th century AD... there
were already Muslim ruling elites there for centuries..
>Yes, and the fact that this assortment had better learn to accept is
>that Karachi is a part of Sindh.
Things change.. In the past there were countless time periods when Karachi was
never part of Sindh..
>Shame on Punjabis for conspiring with
>Muhajirs to bring the Sindhi nation to its knees!
>
Hey dont blame it on us... You are responsible for your own destruction.. with
waderageri and pirimuridi thriving in rural Sindh.. Sindhis will remain
backwards.. first break your chains of feudal slavery and let the Sindhi masses
join the mainstream Pakistan... let them get education and give them
rights/freedom... things will only improve with the destruction of Sindhi
feudalism...
>Like I said, whatever makes you happy, Moin.
>
I am not Moin.. and are you denying the fact that I presented?
Jamil Raza
>
> >Whatever makes you happy, Moin.
> >
> >
>
> LOL... paranoia at it's best... who the hell is Moin?
Some people never change.
> Get rid of all that hatred and bigotry... it is destructive.. Mohajirs are not
> that bad...
I'm sure they're not.
>I have many Mohajir friends.. i have great respect for them...
Well, bully for you.
> Even when the Baluchis migrated Sindh and became the ruling elite... they did
> not get absorbed among the Sindhi mainstream for atleast a couple of
> generations... and they are responsible for bringing many Baluchi cultural
> aspects to Sindh (btw other invaders/migrants like Aryas imposed their
> culture/language and Aryanized the Sindhis)... The thing is Muhajirs greatly
> outnumbered the Baluchis in respect to migration to Sindh.. the greater the
> numbers the longer it takes to get absorbed... e.g. Muhajirs in small Sindhi
> cities/towns have become Sindhiized, but in large cities like Karachi first
> there were very few Sindhi Muslims living at the time of partition (mostly
> Sindhi Hindus, Parsis, Sikhs, Jains lived there) and when the Muhajirs settled
> there they were living amongst themselves with no Sindhis around, so how could
> they be Sindhiized... all this ethnic hatred/prejudice and political
> exploitation is making things worse.. and it is both-sided.. however with this
> continued trend, there is danger of ethnic separation as well as division of
> the province... And you my friend are adding fire to fire..
I don't want Pakistan to become Asia's Yugoslavia, but I really
don't give a shit about Pakistan's unity. I think that
we should bid each other a respectful goodbye and go our
separate ways. It's clear to me that we can never develop and progress
whilst carrying
the burden of "Nazria-e-Pakistan".
> Btw... Baluchi migrations to Sindh started around the 15th century AD... there
> were already Muslim ruling elites there for centuries..
>
> >Yes, and the fact that this assortment had better learn to accept is
> >that Karachi is a part of Sindh.
>
> Things change.. In the past there were countless time periods when Karachi was
> never part of Sindh..
I ask you again, did you tell all this to the Sindhis before
taking over their motherland?
> >Shame on Punjabis for conspiring with
> >Muhajirs to bring the Sindhi nation to its knees!
> >
>
> Hey dont blame it on us...
*sigh*. Let's get this over with quickly and painlessly. What is your
qawm, what is your gotra, and which region are you from?
>You are responsible for your own destruction.. with
> waderageri and pirimuridi thriving in rural Sindh.. Sindhis will remain
> backwards..
And with usurping and ungrateful UPites thrown in that is an absolute
certainty.
>first break your chains of feudal slavery and let the Sindhi masses
> join the mainstream Pakistan...
Feudal this, feudal that....chanting the MQM mantra.....yawn....
>let them get education and give them
> rights/freedom... things will only improve with the destruction of Sindhi
> feudalism...
>
> >Like I said, whatever makes you happy, Moin.
> >
>
> I am not Moin.. and are you denying the fact that I presented?
You have yet to present a single "fact".
Jamil
PakPanjabi
>don't give a shit about Pakistan's unity. I think that
> we should bid each other a respectful goodbye and go our
>separate ways. It's clear to me that we can never develop and progress
>whilst carrying
>the burden of "Nazria-e-Pakistan".
>
Although I support Pakistan's unity in respect to common Vedic-Saka-Muslim
history/culture/race/religion/language, I was referring to only the province of
Sindh.. with it's Sindhi-Mohajir divide..
>I ask you again, did you tell all this to the Sindhis before
>taking over their motherland?
Did the Sindhis who have Arya roots tell the Harappans that they were going to
impose their language/culture on them?
>Feudal this, feudal that...
I wouldnt be surprized if you are part of the feudal elite... First you proved
to be a Brahmanist-apologist and now a feudal-apologist...
>You have yet to present a single "fact".
With all the facts presented to you, which you replied with hogwash
responses... denial, personal attacks and playing dumb is not a good idea..
Ignorance has many faces.. and you my friend are one of them...
no...@nowhere.net
>Gandharan scripts in use during Gandharan Buddhist period
>(400BC-1000AD). The Sufis and Gurus rejected the use of Devnagri - a
>Brahmanical script from Gangasthan created during the 11th century AD to
>monopolize and corrupt the previously existing Saka-Vedic-Buddhist
>literature after the demise of Buddhism.
sorry fraudboy, gurmukhi looks more like a corrupted devnagri (fine,
you can call it gandharan). you couldn't even pronounce half of the
vedas using the gurmukhi script. Which contradicts your previous
assertion that sanskrit was born from punjabi (like modern greek from
hellinistic)...
damn, there I go again; the vedas were rewritten by those badboy
brahmanoids... (sorry, I forgot).
>Even then names of Sikh and Sufi saints known as "Babas" betray their
>Gandharan-Buddhist lineage (Buddha Shah, Bulle Shah, Buddha Singh,
>Gandha Singh, etc.) and major Sikh-Sufi shrines/darbars/centers were set
>on locations sacred to Gandharan Buddhism (e.g. Punja Sahib, Pak Pakkan,
>Multan, Lahore). Arab chroniclers in Sindh during 8-9th century refer
>to the rulers and armies of the region as the "warriors of Buddha" and
Warriors of buddha!?? What the fuck is that? Any believer in buddha
would NEVER take up arms. Hell, Gautama gave up his kshatriya identity
because he felt it unnecessary (especially in times of peace).
>the Buddha himself is known as "SakaMuni" in Saka inscriptions, coins
>and texts from the Satrapa, Maurya, Kushana, Jauvala and Virka empires.
What a load.
>
>Even the traditonal Punjabi, Haryanvi, Rajasthani and Gujarati dress
>(e.g. kurta pajama, salwar kameez, khagara, uchkin, pagri) is identical
>to the costumes found on the coins, inscriptions and statues of Saka
>Emporers and dynasties.
>
>The Gandharan-Buddhist connection even resounds in the Sufi-Sikh
>institutions of the 11-18th century. The Pir/Guru institution and
>sucesssorship is similar to the concept of Gandharan Buddhist "lammas".
> Langar (free food) for the sangat (Buddhist "sangha") existed in Sufi
>centers and still continues in Gurdwaras. The Saka-Buddhist centers of
So this was 11-18th century... And that hindoo sankaracarya was 9th
century... and he said 'satsangatve nirsangatvam' (xlat: sangha with
sat [truth] leads to nirsangha [transcendance/mohamukti]).
Now, how do you suppose that malabari picked up the sangha idea
thingy?
>religion and learning in Sakasthan (e.g. Nalanda University) had a
>similar social philosopy. For example, Nalanda was open to all segments
>of society and offered free education. The Satrapas, Kushanas, Jauvalas
>and Virkas patronized Buddhism (combined with Saka Sun worship) and
>spent vast resources to support Gandharan Buddhist centers, universities
>and dharamsalas.
>
>The Saka kings, entitled Shahi, were great patron of the Gandharan arts
>and literature which excelled to new heights during the Kushana period.
> Many of the Gurus and Pirs are refered to in Punjabi as
>"Sachi-Pad-Shahi" ("Kings of the true path"). The art of kirtan,
>shabad, thadi-jathas, qwali found in Punjabi Sufism/Sikhism is descended
>from the Saka-Gandharan artistic and musical traditions. These
>traditions from ancient Sakasthan, preserved by the Punjabi Sufis and
>Sikhs, were later borrowed by Mogul courts and composers of the 15-16th
>century.
Really. ALL that and more was borne from sakism? I'm surprised sakas
aren't also taking credit for the invention of oral sex...
>
>
>ROLE OF SUFISM AND SIKHISM IN THE SAKA POLITICAL REVIVAL
>(17-19th century)
Please note that revival means also lying about ones past in a nicer
way. Face it, you sakas didn't own shit but rather invaded and stole
it. And NOW you want to take credit for all achievement under your
illegal occupation. Get Bent!
>
>After the destruction of the Mogul Empire, 30-40% of the Punjabi
>army/administration was made up of Punjabis of Sufi lineage whose
>ethnicity is Saka - just like Punjabi Sikhs. They all lived in the same
>villages and belonged to the same ancient Saka-Vedic tribes, clans and
>"bratheri" (brotherhood).
By your accounts, anything alive in that region was saka even though
the sakas themselves were not indigenous to 'punjab'. Bend some more!
>
>
chaud...@my-deja.com
In article <19991021113554...@ng-ck1.aol.com>,
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> >Urdas have a right to your mother tongue in Sindh? Do you
> >have the right to your mother tongue in the United States?
>
> When a majority of a region attains a particular identity separate
from
> others... it is only democratic that the wishes of the majority be
heard...
>
> >The difference
> >is that there
> >are no dumb Paindoos in the United States that you can brainwash and
> >manipulate
> >to bully the Sindhi nation into submission.
>
> Dont get so paranoid... Calling me a Mohajir, the F word,
propagandist, ...
> cannot change my Punjabi identity.. its a free world... this is not
some rural
> Sindh.. where a wadera can forcefully impose his propagandist views
on the
> masses... If anything the misery among Sindhis is caused by your
feudal
> lords.... it is a shame that rural Sindh is dominated by medieval
waderageri
> (feudalism) where Sindhi masses are exploited and oppressed (like
slaves e.g
> haris). Atleast in my Punjab feudalism is least found and has
significantly
> reduced...
>
> >You Urdas were welcomed by the Sindhi nation in your hour of need.
And
> >you repay this kindess by launching a massive assault on Sindh's
culture
>
> It will take time for Mohajirs to get absorbed in the Sindhi
mainstream..
> depending on the socio-political environment, these evolutionary
transitions
> take centuries if not decades, sometimes even creating new identities.
> Throughout Sindh's history many different waves of migrants came and
settled in
> Sindh who were either absorbed into the mainstream or were
responsible for
> bringing new cultures, races, language. Aryas, Sakas, Hunas are few
examples to
> mention. And Mohajirs are no different from them....
>
> >Karachi isn't a suburb of Delhi. It is the jewel in the crown of
Sindh.
>
> Karachi has nothing to do with Delhi.. The fact is 55-60% of Karachi
consists
> of Mohajirs, 35-40% are Punjabis/Pathan/Baluchis, and only 5-10% are
Sindhis.
> But the most important fact about Karachi is that they all speak
Urdu, it is
> their mother tongue or has become one. Btw, Karachi was part of
Baluchistan
> (Khanate of Kalat) until the Talpurs invaded it and made it part of
Sindh in
> 1796 AD.
>
chaud...@my-deja.com
In article <19991021180931...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> >Whatever makes you happy, Moin.
> >
> >
>
> LOL... paranoia at it's best... who the hell is Moin?
>
> >Even
> >the
> >Baluch who wiped out the old Brahmin-Kshatrya social order in Sindh
and
> >placed themselves
> >on top of Sindh's social hierarchy fully integrated themselves into
> >the Sindhi nation. The UPite is made of different stuff.
> >
>
> Get rid of all that hatred and bigotry... it is destructive..
Mohajirs are not
> that bad... I have many Mohajir friends.. i have great respect for
them...
>
> Btw... Baluchi migrations to Sindh started around the 15th century
AD... there
> were already Muslim ruling elites there for centuries..
>
> >Yes, and the fact that this assortment had better learn to accept is
> >that Karachi is a part of Sindh.
>
> Things change.. In the past there were countless time periods when
Karachi was
> never part of Sindh..
>
> >Shame on Punjabis for conspiring with
> >Muhajirs to bring the Sindhi nation to its knees!
> >
>
> Hey dont blame it on us... You are responsible for your own
destruction.. with
> waderageri and pirimuridi thriving in rural Sindh.. Sindhis will
remain
> backwards.. first break your chains of feudal slavery and let the
Sindhi masses
> join the mainstream Pakistan... let them get education and give them
> rights/freedom... things will only improve with the destruction of
Sindhi
> feudalism...
>
> >Like I said, whatever makes you happy, Moin.
> >
>
> I am not Moin.. and are you denying the fact that I presented?
>
chaud...@my-deja.com
In article <19991019235425...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> >Shouldnt that be Mongolian?
> >
>
> Huh?? Mongolian language is completely distinct from Urdu....
Mongolian
> language is classified by linguists as an Altaic language whereas
Urdu is a
> Indo-Aryan language...
>
> >The Mongolians picked up Urdu after destroying Islamic central asia,
> >Iran and Iraq.
>
> Mongols slowly adopted Persian language and culture... and Islam in
Central
> Asia and Iran. They were slowly absorbed among the population as they
were
> greatly outnumbered by the locals..
>
> >Mosques were turned into stables according to Islamic
> >sources.
> >
>
> Yes... initially when they invaded and destroyed the Islamic lands.
Later on
> when they slowly adopted Islam and Persian culture/language... they
were great
> patrons of Persian language/culture..
>
> >Why not try it or better the real mother language Mongolian?
> >
>
> If you are referring to the Mughuls..The name Mughal, writes art
historian
> Barbara Brend (1991), is an Indian version of Mongal; to dwellers in
India, the
> term referred to anyone from Central Asia. Racially, the founder of
Mughal
> empire, Babur was a Turk with a thin stream of Mongol blood in his
veins;
> therefore, notes Hambly (1968), the term 'Mughal' by which he and his
> descendants were known in India was really a misnomer. In Persian,
the word
> Mughal, always highly pejorative among the civilized inhabitants of
Iran or
> Mawarannahr, simply means a Mongol. It is clear, however, from
Babur's writing
> that he considered himself a Turk. Although Babur was descended on
his mother's
> side from Chingiz Khan's second son, Chaghatai, it is clear that this
Mongol
> lineage meant less to him than his paternal ancestry which linked him
with the
> great Turkish conqueror, Timur.
>
> >So why not try making Israeli (another semite language) the national
> >language of Pakistan
>
> With that same logic... the old Testament/Torah has stories derived
from
> ancient Mesopotamian beliefs/tales.. so why shouldnt the Israelis
adopt
> Sumerian or Akkadian? Or in your Sikhism there are influences from
Islam
> (monotheism, eating beef, equality, etc), so why dont you Sikhs adopt
Arabic,
> the language of Quran.. Your idea/logic is laughable.... :)
>
> >Why am I not surprised Pakijabi or is it another Mohajir-Kanjar
> >pretending to be a "Paindoo"?
>
> Dont get so paranoid.. believe me majority of Punjabis in Pakistan
share my
> views.. just because you disagree with me doesnt make me less than
Punjabi...
>
> >Urdu is a Mongrel post-16th century language to begin with: started
by
> >Mongolian-Turkic lost cows in Bhiyaland.
> >
>
> Mughals (Iranian Turks) who were very much Persianized... Persian
culture,
> language, race... had a large number of Persians among them... slowly
evolved
> Urdu with their spoken Persian mixed with Khari boli.. Strong Persian
> vocabulary.. Persian script...
>
> >It is a primitive and rude sounding (ka ka ka) language . . . sort of
> >like Pigeon English.
>
> LOL... All non-Urdu speakers that I meet say that it sounds very
civilized..
> Infact that is one of it's best/famous qualities.. very civil, sweet
and
> mannered language..
>
> >I think the foreign Urdas brought in my Mongolian-Bhiyas (3%) should
be
> >banned altogethor in all the region of Sakasthan (Indus-Ganga
country).
>
> Well.. if banned as the national language... the people of Karachi
still have a
> right to it.. after all it is their mother tongue.. but I dont see
that
> happening Punjabis are fond of Urdu, while keeping Punjabi.
>
> If anyone should worry about anything.. it is you Khalistani
Punjabis... you
> are losing your Saka heritage... Punjabi language.. My prediction is
in 50
> years unless you create your separate homeland, you are as good as a
> Dasya-Bhiyya... Atleast in Pakistan, we Punjabis are well represented
and are
> preserving/promoting our culture/language... As far as your dream of
> Sakasthana, with states like Gujarat and Maharashta added it should
be more
> precisely called Patelisthana..
>
> >Their history books and the Iranians
> >I talk to despise you fellas.
> >
>
> The Iranian-Arab-Afghan (and American) friends that I know always
admire the
> history of Muslim rule in South Asia.. with architectural marvels
like Taj
> Mahal, Qutb Minar, Badshahi Mosque, Lal Qila, Shalimar Garden, etc...
Great
> poetry and literature... Great foods.. Great paintings and arts...
etc etc..
> who wouldnt...
>
> >Here is a quick low-down of the real 4000 yrs history of northwest
> >Sakasthan (and former Saptha Sindhva). Mongolians prior to 15th
century
> >were not here yet! And no one had ever heard of "Pakistan" until 5
> >decades ago.
>
> The name/country of Pakistan might be 50 some years old.. but the
region and
> people of Pakistan have always been separate from India.. Except for
the
> Mauryan, Muslim and British rule it was never part of India.. It was
either
> independent or part of it's western neighbors... So as far as you and
your
> people are concerned.. too bad that you share some aspects of
history, culture
> and race with us (most Sikhs migrated to India from West Punjab)...
but you all
> are doomed... your destiny lies with Bhiyyastan-Gangaland-Hathistan-
Cowland. I
> can only hope that your people will restart your struggle for
Khalistan, get
> independence and later merge with us... Pakistan.. the closest thing
to
> Sakasthan.
>
Jamil Raza
>
> >I don't want Pakistan to become Asia's Yugoslavia, but I really
> >don't give a shit about Pakistan's unity. I think that
> > we should bid each other a respectful goodbye and go our
> >separate ways. It's clear to me that we can never develop and progress
> >whilst carrying
> >the burden of "Nazria-e-Pakistan".
> >
>
> Although I support Pakistan's unity in respect to common Vedic-Saka-Muslim
> history/culture/race/religion/language, I was referring to only the province of
> Sindh.. with it's Sindhi-Mohajir divide..
> >I ask you again, did you tell all this to the Sindhis before
> >taking over their motherland?
>
> Did the Sindhis who have Arya roots tell the Harappans that they were going to
> impose their language/culture on them?
The Aryans were invading marauders. UPites were welcomed into Sindh by
Sindhis. Do you see the difference?
> >Feudal this, feudal that...
>
> I wouldnt be surprized if you are part of the feudal elite... First you proved
> to be a Brahmanist-apologist and now a feudal-apologist...
You are quite right. I am a pro-Brahminist propogandist, separatist,
feudal, RSS fanatic working as an undercover agent for RAW. I'm a really
busy guy, me.
I see you ignored my questions about your qawm and gotra. I'm not
surprized.
> >You have yet to present a single "fact".
>
> With all the facts presented to you, which you replied with hogwash
> responses... denial, personal attacks and playing dumb is not a good idea..
> Ignorance has many faces.. and you my friend are one of them...
OK. So now I now I'm an IGNORANT pro-Brahminist propogandist,
separatist, feudal, RSS fanatic working as an undercover agent for RAW.
Jamil
gan...@my-deja.com
> >Shame on Punjabis for conspiring with
> >Muhajirs to bring the Sindhi nation to its knees!
> >
>
> Hey dont blame it on us... You are responsible for your own
destruction.. with
> waderageri and pirimuridi thriving in rural Sindh.. Sindhis will
remain
> backwards..
The Red-toothed Mongolian-Bhiya Devil Rears its Ugly Stupid Head Again
There you have it . . . didnt take long . . . finally . . . the
mongolian-bhiya red toothed devil rears its ugly stupid head!!!
This is a lesson number ONE to Punjabis/Sakas on the Mohajir-Mongolian
snake. First, he adopted the name "PakPanjabi" (and a second name
"Chaudry99") and then starts spouting the standard Mohajir
dillusions/propaganda about
1) "Persianness" of mongoloid Mongolian-Turkic-dasya Bhiyas.
2) How good Arab rule was in Sindh.
3) How Seraiki area of Punjab should be separated.
4) Praising the "sweetness" of rude sounding Urdas (a pigeon
Mongolian-Turkic version of khari-boli).
5) How Sakasthan was ruled by Persians (while Satrapas and Kushanas
intermittently ruled large tracts of Pesia 200BC-400AD) with whom
Mongolian-Turks share nothing but genocide!
. . .
The fudu Mohajir-Bhiya has been claiming all along he is a "Punjabi".
Now, cornered, he admits to being a anti-Sindhi anti-Punjabi
Mohajir-Mongolian-Bhiya.
Lesson: If it talks like an Urdas, sounds like an Urdas, acts like an
Urdas . . . it aint no Punjabi - but a kanjir Urdasi Mongolian Bhiya!
You have lost all credibility Bhiyajabi.
gan...@my-deja.com
The Sikhs have culturally maintained the ancient 4000 years Punjabiyat
despite the bhiya-brahmanoid oppression onslaught. But, Punjabis
west of the "Mohajir border" are under the cultural and political
tyranny of the 3% Mongolian-Bhiyas that took over western Sakasthan in
1947 and turned it into a "Mohajir Sultanate".
Punjabis are not even allowed to learn their ancient Saka-Vedic language
in their schools, universities and cannot even conduct their political
discourse in the Punjab Assembly in their native Punjabi. They must
imitate the foreign mongolian-bhiya's urdas in the political, social and
cultural spheres like stupid monkeys. This is the hallmark of
enslavement and colonial rule!
Ditto for Sindhis under the Mohajir political and cultural oppression.
gan...@my-deja.com
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> >What a fucking moron. Punjabiat is being put the sword in
> >Pakistan. Only the Sikhs have kept it alive.
The Post-1947 Mohajir-Mongolian Sultanate: Oppressor of Punjabiyat
Despite Mohajir denialism and propaganda, there is clearly a
Mohajir-Punjabi and Mohajir-Sindhi divide in the political and social
arena in Pakistan. The Mohajirs, who are ethnically of mongolian-bhiya
extraction, hate and despise the local "Paindoos" and have been
vociferously denigrating the Saka-Vedic-based culture/language (e.g.
Punjabi, Sindhi) of Sakasthan, supressing its history, and pumping Sakas
with "Persian fantasies" and Mohajir "Islamic Nation" propaganda (even
though "Islamic" middle-east has over +30 nation states and the Satrapa
and Kushana empires based in Sakasthan ruled large tracts of Persia).
The majority of the indeginous Saka-Vedic population consider the bhiyas
from +1000-1500 kms away Gangaland and beyond to be outsiders and
foreign imperialists.
Instead of being thankful to the local population for giving them
shelter and country from the Bhiya Brahmanists to whom they lost
Gangasthan and the eastern British empire, the Mohajir neo-Mogulites
arrived in western Sakasthan after engineering "partition" with
fantasies of being the "superior rulers" of their "inferior Paindoo"
muslim subjects . . . just like the Bhiya-based Brahmanist imperialists
fantasize themselves as the "superior ruling class" of their Hindian
Empire (Indian Union) and their majority inferior Hindu flock.
The imported bhiya "Urdu" language is pushed as the "Islamic language"
and "Paindoo" Punjabi and Sindhi are "un-Islamic" and "inferior". This
is purely bhiya-Mohajir bigotory and imperialistic propaganda as the
Qoran only views "Arabic" as the "Islamic language". The Mohajir
intellentsia founding the Pakistan state in 1947 has violated the
Islamic directive of making Arabic the national language of Pakistan - a
Mohajir declared "Islamic State"!
There was no referendum or democratic process in 1947 in the 2500 year
old Sakasthan region for the establishment of a new Pakistan state to be
ruled by bhiyas and Punjabis were not part of the "partition" decision.
The Unionist Party in power in pre-1947 Punjab was supported by the
majority of Punjabis of all religious affiliation. Its policy was to
maintain a "unified Punjab" and the Government of Punjab was never
consulted on the Brahmanist-Mohajir hijacking and partition of the
former British empire, all secretly crafted and negotiated in Delhi with
their former British master.
The majority subjects (97%) of the Mohajir Sultanate are not even
allowed to speak their native languages (Punjabi and Sindhi) in the
Punjab and Sindh state assemblies. They must carry out the business of
their state originally spoken by the 3% Mohajir bhiyas! The majority of
high posts in the Pakistan state, media and political system in Pakistan
are held either directly by Mojahir-bhiyas or by loyalists and
collaboraters thoroughly brainwashed into the supremacist neo-Mogulite
ideology.
Since at least 500 BC, the region has been dominated by the Saka tribes
who built grand empires and dynaties like the Mauryas (100 yrs),
Satrapas (+300), Kushanas (280), Jauvalas (150), Virkas (220) . . . and
lead the Saka political revival during the 17-19th century. Under Saka
self-rule, Sakasthan was the centre of asian civilization, international
trade, Gandharan Buddhism, sciences and arts.
The independence struggle in Punjab organized under the banners of the
Saka-Khalsa-Sufi movement organized transpired into a larger indepedence
movement from the Mogul empire and a socio-economic revolt against a
foreign Mogul-Afghan governing class. It attracted support from all
martial segments of Punjabi segments - particulary the
zamindari/agrarian class who had the most to gain: political rule,
taxation rights, jagirs, more land, status, etc.
Despite the 20th century Mohajir and Brahmanist historical fraud and
ONE-TWO Nation dogmas, so-called Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus of Punjab
(and Sakasthan) all share the same Saka-Vedic clans, ethnicity and
history. Punjabis from all religious affiliations had extremely high
incentives to free Punjab from the 180 year Mongolian empire in
southasia. Some converted while others joined their Sikh counterparts
as allies.
During the rise of the misls, consolidation and expansion of Punjabi Raj
during 1708-1847, 30-40% of the Punjabi army, administration, officers
and courtiers were Punjabis of Sufi-Muslim lineage. Two of Ranjit
Singh's top five generals were Muslims of Saka background (Jat/Gujar).
Same applied to his Foreign Minister, Commader of Police and Personal
Physician. Meanwhile, the Mongolian-Turks during their 180 year
occupation of Punjab had treated Punjabi Muslims as conquered subjects -
not even 1% of Mogul regime was made up of Punjabi Muslims. They trusted
their loyal Hindus from the desert and hills more and recruited over
+50% of their soldiers and administration from them.
Islam was introduced into Punjab through the evagelism of the Punjabi
Sufis during 11-15th century. Punjabi Sufism was an unorthodox and
mystical version of Islam heavily influenced by the region's long
Gandharan-Saka-Buddhist spiritual roots and heritage (400BC-900AD) of
Punjabiyat. The granth has hyms of 16 Sufis and mystical Bhagats
composed in Punjabi going back to 11th century. Sufi Pirs were personal
friends of Gurus and the foundation stone of Golden Temple was laid by
Sufi Mir Mian. Ranjit Singh rebuilt the masoleum of Pir Shakarganj in
marble in Lahore and spent state revenue on Sufi, Sikh and Hindu
shrines. This policy personified the traditional tolerant, open,
pluralist, unorthodox and humanistic outlook of Sakas towards religion
and spirituality.
The later Mogul regimes (Jahangir, Aurengzeb) were trying to stamp out
unorthodox and mystical Sufism as well as Sikhism in Punjab. Aurengzeb
had all the head Pirs of Sufi centers in Punjab executed and their
centers destroyed along with the execution of Guru Tegh Bahadur.
The 180 years Mongolian control of Sakasthan came to an end during the
1708-1730 period as powerful states arose throughout Sakasthan. By the
early 18th century, just the northern Saka states of Lahore, Patiala,
Bharatpur and Bhawalpur could field modern Europeanized armies of
+300,000 trained by Napeoleonic Generals like Ventura, Avitable, Allard,
etc. In the late 18th century, Saka armies had started crossing to
Ganga to collect taxes from the easterly mongul-nawabs who were
hurriedly signing "protection treaties" with the British Empire. If the
British Empire - a foreign power in southasia - had not clashed with
Sakasthan (which was consolidating towards a
Maurya-Satrapa-Kushana-Jauvala-Virka type federation), Gangasthan would
still be under modern Sakasthani rule (1708-1999).
The recent army takeover in Pakistan a last desperate gasp of the 50
year Mohajir neo-Mogulite imperialists at maintaining control as they
see their failed and artificial sultanate edging towards final collapse.
Jamil Raza
gan...@my-deja.com
no...@nowhere.net wrote:
> >SUPREME GOD. Many of the Gurumuki characters are borrowed from
earlier
> >Gandharan scripts in use during Gandharan Buddhist period
> >(400BC-1000AD). The Sufis and Gurus rejected the use of Devnagri - a
> >Brahmanical script from Gangasthan created during the 11th century AD
to
> >monopolize and corrupt the previously existing Saka-Vedic-Buddhist
> >literature after the demise of Buddhism.
>
> sorry fraudboy, gurmukhi looks more like a corrupted devnagri (fine,
> you can call it gandharan). you couldn't even pronounce half of the
Devnagri is a 11th century bhiya script. Many of the GurMukhi letters
are close to those of scripts from Saka-Gandharan civilization
(500BC-1000AD).
Sakas have ruled Sakasthan (country between Indus and Ganga) since at
least 500 BC when they are mentioned "ruling central asia down to Ganga
river" by the Greek historian Herodotus ("father of history") in 5th
century BC. Their dynasties and empires include the Mauryas, Satrapas,
Kushanas, Jauvalas, Virkas, . . . Lahore/Bharatpur/Rajputanna/Gujarat
(17-19th century). Under Saka self-rule, Sakasthan was the centre of
Asian civilization, interanational trade, Gandharan Buddhism, sciences
and arts.
> vedas using the gurmukhi script. Which contradicts your previous
> assertion that sanskrit was born from punjabi (like modern greek from
> hellinistic)...
>
> damn, there I go again; the vedas were rewritten by those badboy
> brahmanoids... (sorry, I forgot).
True. Ramayana, Mahabharta, RigVeda, Yajur-Veda are all Vedic-Saka
literature from Punjab/Sakasthan . . . as admitted by the dravidic
Brahmins themselves!
Their version of these works are later plagerized corruptions. Even
Rama Yodhya was a Saka ruler from Mathura who killed a Brahmin usurper
and freed his people from the Brahmin Caste Cult. Puranas of
Gangasthan themselves record the Brahmin calling their devta "Parsurama"
on more than "21 occasions" to deliver them from their Kshatriyas
(rulers/zamindars/administrators/soldiers). Puranas also depict
this devta fighting Rama - ever think why?
>
> >Even then names of Sikh and Sufi saints known as "Babas" betray their
> >Gandharan-Buddhist lineage (Buddha Shah, Bulle Shah, Buddha Singh,
> >Gandha Singh, etc.) and major Sikh-Sufi shrines/darbars/centers were
set
> >on locations sacred to Gandharan Buddhism (e.g. Punja Sahib, Pak
Pakkan,
> >Multan, Lahore). Arab chroniclers in Sindh during 8-9th century
refer
> >to the rulers and armies of the region as the "warriors of Buddha"
and
>
> Warriors of buddha!?? What the fuck is that? Any believer in buddha
> would NEVER take up arms. Hell, Gautama gave up his kshatriya identity
> because he felt it unnecessary (especially in times of peace).
>
> >the Buddha himself is known as "SakaMuni" in Saka inscriptions, coins
> >and texts from the Satrapa, Maurya, Kushana, Jauvala and Virka
empires.
>
> What a load.
A heavy load indeed for Brahmanist history frauds!
>
> >
> >Even the traditonal Punjabi, Haryanvi, Rajasthani and Gujarati dress
> >(e.g. kurta pajama, salwar kameez, khagara, uchkin, pagri) is
identical
> >to the costumes found on the coins, inscriptions and statues of Saka
> >Emporers and dynasties.
> >
> >The Gandharan-Buddhist connection even resounds in the Sufi-Sikh
> >institutions of the 11-18th century. The Pir/Guru institution and
> >sucesssorship is similar to the concept of Gandharan Buddhist
"lammas".
> > Langar (free food) for the sangat (Buddhist "sangha") existed in
Sufi
> >centers and still continues in Gurdwaras. The Saka-Buddhist centers
of
>
> So this was 11-18th century... And that hindoo sankaracarya was 9th
> century... and he said 'satsangatve nirsangatvam' (xlat: sangha with
> sat [truth] leads to nirsangha [transcendance/mohamukti]).
He might be your wise Brahmin Law Giver . . . but we Sakas dont really
care what the dasya-dhoti was muttering +2000kms away in Malabar after
plagerizing and distorting Buddhist philosophy/works.
The Buddhists in the south were from Aryan-Saka heritage.
>
> Now, how do you suppose that malabari picked up the sangha idea
> thingy?
>
> >religion and learning in Sakasthan (e.g. Nalanda University) had a
> >similar social philosopy. For example, Nalanda was open to all
segments
> >of society and offered free education. The Satrapas, Kushanas,
Jauvalas
> >and Virkas patronized Buddhism (combined with Saka Sun worship) and
> >spent vast resources to support Gandharan Buddhist centers,
universities
> >and dharamsalas.
> >
> >The Saka kings, entitled Shahi, were great patron of the Gandharan
arts
> >and literature which excelled to new heights during the Kushana
period.
> > Many of the Gurus and Pirs are refered to in Punjabi as
> >"Sachi-Pad-Shahi" ("Kings of the true path"). The art of kirtan,
> >shabad, thadi-jathas, qwali found in Punjabi Sufism/Sikhism is
descended
> >from the Saka-Gandharan artistic and musical traditions. These
> >traditions from ancient Sakasthan, preserved by the Punjabi Sufis and
> >Sikhs, were later borrowed by Mogul courts and composers of the
15-16th
> >century.
>
> Really. ALL that and more was borne from sakism? I'm surprised sakas
> aren't also taking credit for the invention of oral sex...
That is what the deva-dasis (Brahmin women dancers) were for.
Lets not forget all the oldest Brahmin temples dating to 8-9th century
were really prostitution centers . . . and the nude sculptures engaged
in sex along with early writing prove it!
Brahmins, after getting rid of Buddhism, became the PIMP MASTERS of
India!
>
> >
> >
> >ROLE OF SUFISM AND SIKHISM IN THE SAKA POLITICAL REVIVAL
> >(17-19th century)
>
> Please note that revival means also lying about ones past in a nicer
> way. Face it, you sakas didn't own shit but rather invaded and stole
> it. And NOW you want to take credit for all achievement under your
> illegal occupation. Get Bent!
>
> >
> >After the destruction of the Mogul Empire, 30-40% of the Punjabi
> >army/administration was made up of Punjabis of Sufi lineage whose
> >ethnicity is Saka - just like Punjabi Sikhs. They all lived in the
same
> >villages and belonged to the same ancient Saka-Vedic tribes, clans
and
> >"bratheri" (brotherhood).
>
> By your accounts, anything alive in that region was saka even though
> he sakas themselves were not indigenous to 'punjab'. Bend some more!
> >
Sakasthan: The Saka-Vedic Confluence
True, they settled the area between 500BC-100AD and absorbed the Aryan
tribes living in Saptha Sindhva who themselves moved there from the same
region of central asia 1000-500 yrs earlier. But the migrations were so
intense that they came to form over 65% of the population in the region
as supported by British Colonial Censuses (which collected ethnic and
tribal information). The earlier Aryans came also in waves over a 500
yr period.
They didnt just ALL get up one morning and all headed south.
So the empires of Sakasthan were really alliances between the Saka-Vedic
tribes of Saptha Sindhva (1500-500BC) and Sakasthan (500BC-1000AD) . . .
Lahore/Bharatpur/Rajputanna/Gujarat. A microcosm of what happened
throughout the 2500 year Sakasthan history and empires like Mauryas
(100yrs), Satrapas(+300), Kushanas(280), Jauvalas(150) and Virkas (220)
is reflected by the alliance that the same Saka-vedic groups (e.g.
Sikh-Sufi-"Hindu" Jats/Gujars/Khatris/Tarkhans/etc.) formed in the
17-19th century with end of the 180 yr Mongolian occupation and rise of
powerful Lahore/Patiala/Bharatpur/Bhawalpur/Dholpur/Rajputanna/Gujarat.
The 180 yr Mongolian occupation of Sakasthan was long in the dust-bin of
history when the British annexed it to their "India" empire. Not only
had the independent misls (republics) developed in Punjab during
1708-1730s, but Bagel Singh in 1790s even entered Delhi and enjoyed
mujra with the Mogul Emporer of Delhi City. Punjabis from just the
south Punjab areas (Patiala-Haryana) were crossing the Ganga river with
25,000 horsemen to collect "rakhi" tax from the Nawabs who then
hurriedly signed protection treaties with the British.
Originally, in the first Punjabi-British treaties, the Ganga river was
made the border between British India and Saka-Punjabi Empires. The
Jats of Bharatpur-Dohlpur had formed a powerful state in Mathura, Agra
and northern Rajasthan. So Moguls were long dead politically in
Sakasthan before British came.
Just the northern Saka states of Lahore, Bharatpur, Bhawalpur, Patiala
at the start of the early 19th century could field a modern Europeanized
army of +300,000 trained by Napoleonic generals (Avitable, Ventura,
Allard) and the region was moving towards a Kushana-Satrapa-Virka type
federation when it clashed with the British empire east of the Ganga.
If the British - a foreign power in southasia - had not interfered,
Sakasthan would still be ruling much of the northern subcontinent
(1708-1999) from Afghanistan to the ancient Ganga border and the region
would be economically more like Japan and Korea than the sewersthan it
is today under the failed and artificial Bhiya Brahmanist Empire.
The 2500 year history of Sakasthan bears out that under Saka self-rule,
Sakasthan has always been the centre of asian civilization,
international trade, philosophy, religion, sciences and arts.
"Sarvasa Sakasthanasa Puyae" (For the glory of Sakasthanis)
Capital Lion Inscriptions at Saka Twin Capitals of Mathura & Peshawar.
PakPanjabi
Sikhs have been experiencing a brutal genocide in India... Since 1984 250,000
Sikhs have been massacred by Indians, not to mention their most holy place
destroyed, countless people tortured and raped... they are doomed unless they
restart their struggle for Khalistan.. they are in a process of becoming
Bhiyyas and Hindus under the Bhiyya-Brahmanist rule.. Atleast in Pakistan,
Punjabis are free, secure, prosperous, and the ruling elite.... Gandasa dont be
jealous at us (western Punjabis), instead save your brethren in India..
gan...@my-deja.com
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> >The Sikhs
>
> Sikhs have been experiencing a brutal genocide in India... Since 1984
250,000
> Sikhs have been massacred by Indians, not to mention their most holy
place
> destroyed, countless people tortured and raped... they are doomed
unless they
> restart their struggle for Khalistan.. they are in a process of
becoming
> Bhiyyas and Hindus under the Bhiyya-Brahmanist rule.. Atleast in
"Punjab" Assembly = Urdas Assembly
I agree with the above Mr. Moin Ansari Urdasi . . . however Punjabis on
the other side of the 1947-Mohajir-Mongolian-Bhiya border are also
no less BHIYA SLAVES - politically, linguistically & culturally - of the
Mohajir Mongolian Sultanate (MMS).
The majority Punjabis are now really "Gangajabis" and made to do the
immitate dasya-bhiya "ka ka ka" at home, at work and in their own Punjab
Assembly like stupid monkeys!
They have a national anthem in a foreign language (that even Persians
cannot understand :}), they have to worship mongrels from Mongolia who
occupied their country for 180 yrs as "their founders", and their TV,
Govt, beaurocracy, foreign affairs are run by the 3%
Bhiya-Mongolian High Command (BMHC) imported from 1500 kms away
Gangasthan. The so-called minuscule "Punjabi elite" are really some
local brainless, dhoti-chuke "Gangajabis", tatuus, collaboraters and
back-stabbers badly doped up on 20th century neo-Mogulite fraud and
mongolian-bhiya "Persian" fantasies & racial complexes.
Given the reality of Punjabi enslavement in the Mohajir Sultanate,
shouldnt the name of
1) "Punjab Assembly" be changed to "Urdas Assembly" and
2) "Punjab" be re-named "Bhiyajab" !
> Punjabis are free, secure, prosperous, and the ruling elite....
>Gandasa dont be
> jealous at us (western Punjabis), instead save your brethren in
>India..
Moin - jealous of you!!! Take a look in the mirror Urdasi.
no...@nowhere.net
>
>The Sikhs have culturally maintained the ancient 4000 years Punjabiyat
>despite the bhiya-brahmanoid oppression onslaught. But, Punjabis
Right, these sikhs who have been sikh for the past 600 years or so
went back in time to 2000bc, wrote the vedas in punjabi and then
translated them into sanskrit and then came back to let you know the
good news!
>west of the "Mohajir border" are under the cultural and political
>tyranny of the 3% Mongolian-Bhiyas that took over western Sakasthan in
>1947 and turned it into a "Mohajir Sultanate".
>
>Punjabis are not even allowed to learn their ancient Saka-Vedic language
>in their schools, universities and cannot even conduct their political
>discourse in the Punjab Assembly in their native Punjabi. They must
>imitate the foreign mongolian-bhiya's urdas in the political, social and
>cultural spheres like stupid monkeys. This is the hallmark of
>enslavement and colonial rule!
>
>Ditto for Sindhis under the Mohajir political and cultural oppression.
>
>
>
>
>
Grand Sen~or
> to their languages while these power transitions are taking place,
therefore
> preserving their nationhood.
language is an element of a nation, but not the only one, for example
economic power is also an element of a nation. If a nation is creative
enough she can develop many languages to protect its identity, rather
than creating its doom to stick to a language which doesn't take her
anywhere, doesn't help to communicate with each other and onthers which
this nation has to deal with.
Look at the creator of URDU language, this was not their original
language, but they needed this to stay and get settled in power,
economically and racially. Perhaps they sacrifised their own language,
but they have created a new civilisation, and a new language. That is
what I call creativity.
http://sites.netscape.net/marcopasa
Grand Sen~or
Grand Sen~or
hemam...@my-deja.com
pakpa...@aol.com (PakPanjabi) wrote:
> A nationhood ceases to exist when it's language is destroyed. All this
talk
> about the global language is boloney. Global language comes and goes.
At
> different time periods there were different global languages,
depending on the
> political and economic might of a nation. Greek, Roman, Persian,
Arabic were
> global languages at one time or the other. But
> when their power declined so did their language's status of being the
global
> language. English as the global language is no different from them.
Once the
> power of the West (US-UK-Canada) declines so will English as the
global
> language disappear. But what is important is that other nations should
cling on
> to their languages while these power transitions are taking place,
therefore
> preserving their nationhood.
>
aram...@gis.net
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