Afghanistan's Girls Fight to Read and Write .
Mo
tent over their heads , beaten if they leave home , must sit
behind blackened windows . Paindoosbrains convert at once to
Hinduism and save your souls ..
Afghanistan's Girls Fight to Read and Write
The New York Times
By BARRY BEARAK
March 9, 2000
KABUL, Afghanistan -- Her name is Fatima, and she was
risking a beating. Defiantly, she stood outside, talking to
a man. Her
face was uncovered.
Under Taliban rule, such openness by a woman is forbidden.
But Fatima said she did not care. She was growing used to a
life
with some risk. Three months ago, she and a few other women
decided to break the law. They opened a school for girls.
"The Taliban know," she said with a slight shrug, a gesture
that meant she herself was unsure what lay ahead. "We have
250
students. How could they not know? Taliban spies come
around, asking this and that. Some approve, some don't.
We'll wait
and see."
The school itself is a drafty, decrepit house with four
rooms. It is reachable through one of Kabul's narrow
alleyways. In the
windows, sheets of torn, dirty plastic substitute for glass.
Hanging blankets are used for doors. The rent is $12 a
month.
"Now the landlord wants more," Fatima complained. "He sees
all these girls here. But what is he giving us? We get our
water
out of a well. There is only one toilet."
A teacher by training, she is in her 30's. She was dressed
smartly in a black jacket and long skirt. Standing in an
open
courtyard, her cheeks had become rosy from the morning cold.
She was wearing lipstick.
For nearly four years now, ever since the Taliban conquered
Kabul, this simple sight -- a woman's face as the wind blows
her
hair -- has been rare. By law, women must don the
head-to-toe burka, their bodies camouflaged with cloth. They
look out at
the world through a panel of thick mesh at eye level.
From time to time, Fatima glanced over her shoulder at an
opening into the alleyway. People could see inside, and the
Taliban
are stern dispensers of wrath.
But she only entered the safety of the house when it was
time to see the classrooms. "We teach the usual subjects:
science,
math, geography and religion," she said. "These children are
learning about the Caliph Omar, a great Muslim warrior at
the time
of the Holy Prophet."
The school has no chairs or desks. Students sit on old rugs.
Two of the rooms have chalkboards. The other two have only
wooden slabs torn from cupboards. A fifth class, held
outside on the ground, has nothing.
When the women opened the school, they simply allowed
word-of-mouth to pass through the neighborhood. "The
response
was amazing," Fatima said. "We've ended up with more
children than we can manage. We hold sessions now in two
shifts."
Most of the girls are eager, as if deprivation had left an
indelible hunger for education. The Taliban's earliest
dictates banned
women from the workplace and girls from schools.
In the first years of their rule, some Taliban insisted they
had no objection to girls' education, but it simply was a
low priority.
Afghanistan was in shambles after two decades of war. They
correctly pointed out that many schools were now ruins and
there
was little money for teachers. Most boys were not getting an
education either.
Since then, they have relented somewhat. Women can work in
health care, so long as they do not mingle with men.
Schooling
for girls remains officially prohibited, but exceptions are
being made. A few mullahs have been able to use their
mosques as
classrooms for girls, though the instruction is primarily
religious. Schools of varying sizes have opened in homes,
some secretly,
others discreetly. The United Nations estimates that 10,000
young girls are going to classes in Kabul -- and more all
the time.
"Most girls have lost four years of education," said Fatima,
going from one classroom into another. "Children with
illiterate
parents have suffered the most."
The teachers have their favorites, those girls with extra
spirit. Fatima asked a few to come along outside. Kulsum, a
5-year-old
with an elfin face, is learning the alphabet. "Listen to me
recite," she said, and each time she made a mistake she
insisted on
starting over from the beginning.
Laili, 10, looks like a boy. This is intentional. Until a
month ago, she wore pants and kept her hair closely shorn.
"I pretended to
be a boy and studied in the boys' school," she said
triumphantly. "It was the only way for me."
Sabira wants to be a writer, and poems seem about to unfurl
from her piercing brown eyes. But she is 14, which is three
years
too old. Even those Taliban who favor schooling for girls
say that age 11 ought to be the limit.
"I'm already too tall," she said. "But I have a plan. I will
wear a burka and pretend I am a teacher when I am really
still a
student."
Fatima listened to the children talk. "These girls have
heart," she said proudly. "They will do anything to get an
education. I have
one. They should have one."
Afghanistan has always had a male-dominated culture, but
many women in the cities had escaped the restraints. Jobs
and
schools were their oases of independence.
That is no longer so. At the thought of it, Fatima's face,
full of only energy before, grew somber and then cross. "It
is a sacred
task to supply an education to these young girls," she said.
The Taliban are always speaking of their jihad, their holy
war against the infidels. That is fine, she said. But their
Islam is not her
Islam.
"This is what is sacred to me," Fatima repeated, opening her
arms and looking at her modest school. "This is my jihad."
The Paradox of Poppy 'Anti-Drug' Afghan
Rulers,
Poor Farmers Reap Opium's Profits
By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, March 9, 2000
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan輸s clouds of acrid smoke billowed into
the air and an Islamic cleric chanted verses from the
Koran, nearly 10,000 pounds of confiscated hashish and 800
pounds of heroin went up in flames surrounded by banners
that
read, "Down With All Kinds of Drugs."
Five months ago, Taliban religious authorities called for
all farmers to reduce their poppy cultivation by one-third.
The
Kandahar governor also has ordered a 50 percent reduction in
this region, which produces 75 percent of Afghanistan's
opium.
Last month, officials banned the collection of civil and
religious taxes on hashish, which is made from hemp, and
heroin.
"When a person is intoxicated, he cannot worship God, so it
is completely forbidden under Islamic law," Gov. Mohammad
Ahsan Rahmani said during the burning ceremony. "Poppy
growing has continued because of our weak economy, but it is
the
policy of the Islamic State of Afghanistan to ultimately
eradicate its cultivation and use."
Accusations that the Taliban profits from drug taxes,
Rahmani said, are "lies and foolish propaganda of the
enemy." Like other
Taliban officials, he drew a sharp distinction between
poppy, which is legal to grow in Afghanistan, and its
addictive derivatives,
which are banned. The traditional tax on poppy, he said, is
a "historic phenomenon. The money does not go to the
Taliban, it
goes to the mosques to help poor relatives and neighbors."
For more than a year, U.N. trucks have been bringing loads
of seed and fertilizer, agricultural expertise and equipment
to build
flood dikes and irrigation wells that farmers need to grow
legally marketable and more delicate crops.
U.N. officials said farmers have been enthusiastic, but that
they constantly ask for more help than the $2 million pilot
project
can afford. They said many growers have reduced their poppy
acreage as promised, but a recent decline in opium prices
and a
severe drought might also be responsible. As for the
Taliban, they said, economic pressure and a weak government
structure
make it difficult for authorities to enforce drug reduction.
"They make a lot of excuses, but we can't blame them
totally," said one U.N. official, who asked not to be named.
"Their
country has been destroyed by war, there is no strong
central government or expertise, and their people need to
eat. The
farmers say, 'Give us another way to live,' and the Taliban
are not in a position to do it."
nei...@hotmail.com
Nessuno
afghanyat
no need for u to repeat t
Nessuno wrote in message <3935489a...@porcodio.it>...
FemFaCal
was that a pin i heard dropping? there is never any response or comment
to these post which have to deal with the treatment of women in
afghanistan. i guess silence is better than acknowledging the sad
truths...
uh tell me.. does my butt look too big in this burqua? i know, i talk
too much.. send me to my dungeon. :) what a loss to exclude half of
your population though.. think of what you could gain. i know afghanis
aren't animals and brutes.. at least i hope they're not. but this
treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western girl
(who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with everyone
anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband). but it's my
choice and that's what's important) give your women more credit.. give
yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will all
run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you? who
are they going to sleep with? why would they do such things? these are
good women.. your mothers and sisters. do you think that would be the
first thing on their minds if they were granted some freedom? sex?
gimme a break! these mothers and sisters should not be your prisoners
whom you have the right to imprison and control. shame on you.
shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
sensitive)
Nawaz
FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
>
> but this
> treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western girl
> (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with everyone
> anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
happen.
> but it's my
> choice and that's what's important
...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
women to wear the burqua?
> give your women more credit.. give
> yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will all
> run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he sake of
argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
> who
> are they going to sleep with?
? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
anything to get their wicked ways.
> shame on you.
Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
each to his/HER(!) own.
> shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> sensitive)
No. It's good that you have come here - might open your mind to the
views and FACTs of others, instead of relying on second, third or even
fourth hand malicious propoganda.
Nawaz.
FemFaCal
> FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> >
> > but this
> > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western girl
> > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with everyone
> > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
>
> Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> happen.
>
> > but it's my
> > choice and that's what's important
>
> ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> women to wear the burqua?
>
> > give your women more credit.. give
> > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will all
> > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
>
> Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he sake of
> argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
> for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
> have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
>
> > who
> > are they going to sleep with?
>
> ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
> are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
> anything to get their wicked ways.
>
> > shame on you.
>
> Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
> necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
> that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
> people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
> each to his/HER(!) own.
>
> > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> > sensitive)
>
> No. It's good that you have come here - might open your mind to the
> views and FACTs of others, instead of relying on second, third or even
> fourth hand malicious propoganda.
>
> Nawaz.
bravo Nawaz.. thank you for your most constructive and tolerant responses.
the reason i came to this site in the first place is cuz i did a study on
islam in college last year (and i'm 40!) and i found it to be nothing like
what my preconceived notions were. the true islam is a very tolerant and
peaceful belief system. i was curious as to all of the reports i read on the
treatment of women in afghanistan cuz they surely are not what i learned about
islam here in america (incidentally my subject was a young woman who wore
hijab(?) and was happy with it which i think is wonderful since it was her
choice, and who's mother happened to be an islamic scholar). what i learned
here is that islam puts women second only to allah (as seen in the parable
"who do i pray for after i pray for allah, pray for your mother etc..".)
surely imprisoning women and blinding them to education or any kind of life
except inside a house or escorted outside is not even granting them the
freedom of a wandering animal let alone a human being who is second only to
god. i don't mean to criticize.. i really don't... my intention is simply to
understand why this is happening.
as for what you said about western women.. i agree totally that there is a lot
of promiscuity here.. but you know it is only themselves who they are hurting.
it is not my business or my place to tell them what to do with their bodies.
nor is it any man's... they are individuals with minds of their own to think
with and do with as they please as long as they are not causing physical
damage to others... but that is my skewed belief from being born in a free
land. so anyone out there who can help me to see more clearly without
attacking me (and if you want to attack go ahead, but it won't make things any
better if you do)please.. i welcome your comments.
shelley
Momin
FemFaCal wrote:
> Nawaz wrote:
>
> > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> > >
> > > but this
> > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western girl
> > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with everyone
> > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
> >
> > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> > happen.
> >
> > > but it's my
> > > choice and that's what's important
> >
> > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> > women to wear the burqua?
> >
> > > give your women more credit.. give
> > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> > > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will all
> > > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
> >
> > Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he sake of
> > argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
> > for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
> > have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
> >
> > > who
> > > are they going to sleep with?
> >
> > ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
> > are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
> > anything to get their wicked ways.
> >
> > > shame on you.
> >
> > Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
> > necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
> > that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
> > people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
> > each to his/HER(!) own.
> >
> > > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> > > sensitive)
> >
Contrary to what you are taught here in US, it might help you if took
a trip abroad to the real Islamic world begining with Saudi Arabia and see
for yourself the fate of women in this godforsaken religion...
Mujahid
hand, where women are burned alive with their dead husbands.
Peace,
Mujahid.
--
"Glory be to He who created me, what delight
In what others regard as utmost pain
Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
An Afghan Mujahid
"Momin" <Mo...@momin.com> wrote in message
news:390C2D07...@momin.com...
>
>
> FemFaCal wrote:
>
> > Nawaz wrote:
> >
> > > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> > > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> > > >
> > > > but this
> > > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western
girl
> > > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with
everyone
> > > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
> > >
> > > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> > > happen.
> > >
> > > > but it's my
> > > > choice and that's what's important
> > >
> > > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> > > women to wear the burqua?
> > >
> > > > give your women more credit.. give
> > > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> > > > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will
all
> > > > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
> > >
> > > Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he
sake of
> > > argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
> > > for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
> > > have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
> > >
> > > > who
> > > > are they going to sleep with?
> > >
> > > ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
> > > are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
> > > anything to get their wicked ways.
> > >
> > > > shame on you.
> > >
> > > Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
> > > necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
> > > that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
> > > people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
> > > each to his/HER(!) own.
> > >
> > > > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> > > > sensitive)
> > >
Mujahid
this place is run by hindus who have noting else to do to antagonize.
Peace,
Mujahid
--
"Glory be to He who created me, what delight
In what others regard as utmost pain
Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
An Afghan Mujahid
"FemFaCal" <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:390C2518...@jps.net...
> Nawaz wrote:
>
> > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> > >
> > > but this
> > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western girl
> > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with everyone
> > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
> >
> > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> > happen.
> >
> > > but it's my
> > > choice and that's what's important
> >
> > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> > women to wear the burqua?
> >
> > > give your women more credit.. give
> > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> > > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will
all
> > > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
> >
> > Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he sake
of
> > argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
> > for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
> > have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
> >
> > > who
> > > are they going to sleep with?
> >
> > ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
> > are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
> > anything to get their wicked ways.
> >
> > > shame on you.
> >
> > Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
> > necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
> > that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
> > people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
> > each to his/HER(!) own.
> >
> > > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> > > sensitive)
> >
> > No. It's good that you have come here - might open your mind to the
> > views and FACTs of others, instead of relying on second, third or even
> > fourth hand malicious propoganda.
> >
> > Nawaz.
>
> bravo Nawaz.. thank you for your most constructive and tolerant responses.
> the reason i came to this site in the first place is cuz i did a study on
> islam in college last year (and i'm 40!) and i found it to be nothing like
> what my preconceived notions were. the true islam is a very tolerant and
> peaceful belief system. i was curious as to all of the reports i read on
the
Shamseddin Mohammad
the Taliban are hypocrites and far away from the true (positive and
tolerant) Islam
"FemFaCal" <femf...@jps.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:390C2518...@jps.net...
abc
( actually I was motivated to go by a muslim friend ). The Islam that they
teach is definitely not the Islam that is practised.
Momin wrote in message <390C2D07...@momin.com>...
>
>
>FemFaCal wrote:
>
>> Nawaz wrote:
>>
>> > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
>> > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
>> > >
>> > > but this
>> > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western girl
>> > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with
everyone
>> > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
>> >
>> > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
>> > happen.
>> >
>> > > but it's my
>> > > choice and that's what's important
>> >
>> > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
>> > women to wear the burqua?
>> >
>> > > give your women more credit.. give
>> > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
>> > > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will
all
>> > > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
>> >
>> > Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he sake
of
>> > argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
>> > for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
>> > have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
>> >
>> > > who
>> > > are they going to sleep with?
>> >
>> > ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
>> > are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
>> > anything to get their wicked ways.
>> >
>> > > shame on you.
>> >
>> > Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
>> > necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
>> > that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
>> > people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
>> > each to his/HER(!) own.
>> >
>> > > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
>> > > sensitive)
>> >
>> > No. It's good that you have come here - might open your mind to the
>> > views and FACTs of others, instead of relying on second, third or even
>> > fourth hand malicious propoganda.
>> >
>> > Nawaz.
>>
>> bravo Nawaz.. thank you for your most constructive and tolerant
responses.
>> the reason i came to this site in the first place is cuz i did a study on
>> islam in college last year (and i'm 40!) and i found it to be nothing
like
>> what my preconceived notions were. the true islam is a very tolerant and
>> peaceful belief system. i was curious as to all of the reports i read on
the
Arshad Mahmood
"abc" <up-y...@together.net> wrote in message
news:390c...@news.together.net...
> I took a course on Islam myself in college, just to see what it really
like.
> ( actually I was motivated to go by a muslim friend ). The Islam that they
> teach is definitely not the Islam that is practised.
We are dealing with matriarchal societies ruled by Neanderthals. None of the
so called "Islamic" countries is Islamic to any extent, their rulers have
formed a *twisted* interpretation which allows them to control the populace.
You cannot blame Christianity for the excesses of the Catholic church in the
past, these deeds were done by evil men with no guidance from god and the
same is true of Islam.
The whole issue is complicated by the fact that the Quran certainly and the
hadith to a lesser extent can be interpreted in many ways. As I have said
before one cannot look at an individual verse (or hadith) and say that this
was what was clearly meant. There are many harsh verses in the Quran, but
equally the Quran says again and again "refrain from evil", "fear god", "be
just", "do good deeds", these cannot be altogether consistent with what is
currently being practice (much of it is clearly "evil").
So one can ask what is the problem, why is the Islam that is practised so
different from what we claim can be found in the Quran and hadith. I don't
have a good answer, clearly education, politics, global alliances, etc all
have a part. To be honest very few Muslims know what constitutes the Quran
or Hadith, and certain interpretations have become the de fact *truth* about
what was meant, my own experience is that these are highly unsatisfactory
and often say more about a certain culture at a certain point in time than
the interpretation of the contents of the Quran and Hadith.
Regards,
Arshad
Momin
Arshad Mahmood wrote:
> "abc" <up-y...@together.net> wrote in message
> news:390c...@news.together.net...
> > I took a course on Islam myself in college, just to see what it really
> like.
> > ( actually I was motivated to go by a muslim friend ). The Islam that they
> > teach is definitely not the Islam that is practised.
>
> We are dealing with matriarchal societies ruled by Neanderthals. None of the
> so called "Islamic" countries is Islamic to any extent, their rulers have
> formed a *twisted* interpretation which allows them to control the populace.
So if none of the so called "Islamic countries" with close to one billion
population
is indeed " truly islamic", then what the hell is Islam anyway? Surely the islam
that we know off and is practiced by close to one billion people cant be the
wrong
Islam!!
Momin
Mujahid wrote:
> And yea please do not forget to stop by in india and watch the Saati first
> hand, where women are burned alive with their dead husbands.
India has a population of 1 billion, How many cases of Sati do you have
proof off. Seems you have yet to fully recover from your last orgy of
head-flagellations..
>
>
> Peace,
> Mujahid.
>
> --
> "Glory be to He who created me, what delight
> In what others regard as utmost pain
> Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
> And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
> An Afghan Mujahid
>
> "Momin" <Mo...@momin.com> wrote in message
> news:390C2D07...@momin.com...
> >
> >
> > FemFaCal wrote:
> >
> > > Nawaz wrote:
> > >
> > > > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > but this
> > > > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western
> girl
> > > > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with
> everyone
> > > > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
> > > >
> > > > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> > > > happen.
> > > >
> > > > > but it's my
> > > > > choice and that's what's important
> > > >
> > > > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> > > > women to wear the burqua?
> > > >
> > > > > give your women more credit.. give
> > > > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> > > > > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will
> all
> > > > > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
> > > >
> > > > Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he
> sake of
> > > > argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
> > > > for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
> > > > have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
> > > >
> > > > > who
> > > > > are they going to sleep with?
> > > >
> > > > ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
> > > > are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
> > > > anything to get their wicked ways.
> > > >
> > > > > shame on you.
> > > >
> > > > Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
> > > > necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
> > > > that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
> > > > people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
> > > > each to his/HER(!) own.
> > > >
> > > > > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> > > > > sensitive)
> > > >
> > > > No. It's good that you have come here - might open your mind to the
> > > > views and FACTs of others, instead of relying on second, third or even
> > > > fourth hand malicious propoganda.
> > > >
> > > > Nawaz.
> > >
> > > bravo Nawaz.. thank you for your most constructive and tolerant
> responses.
> > > the reason i came to this site in the first place is cuz i did a study
> on
> > > islam in college last year (and i'm 40!) and i found it to be nothing
> like
> > > what my preconceived notions were. the true islam is a very tolerant
> and
> > > peaceful belief system. i was curious as to all of the reports i read
> on the
Mo
wrote:
>So one can ask what is the problem, why is the Islam that is practised so
different from what we claim can be found in the Quran and hadith.<
flog 100 lashes without mercy , cut off the limbs of prisoners of war
, wall women alive till death , cut off hands etc.
If Muslims became literal Quran followers the rest of humans
would chuck them out of the human species ..
FemFaCal
> And yea please do not forget to stop by in india and watch the Saati first
> hand, where women are burned alive with their dead husbands.
>
> Peace,
> Mujahid.
>
> --
> "Glory be to He who created me, what delight
> In what others regard as utmost pain
> Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
> And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
> An Afghan Mujahid
>
> "Momin" <Mo...@momin.com> wrote in message
> news:390C2D07...@momin.com...
> >
> >
> > FemFaCal wrote:
> >
> > > Nawaz wrote:
> > >
> > > > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > but this
> > > > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western
> girl
> > > > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with
> everyone
> > > > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
> > > >
> > > > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> > > > happen.
> > > >
> > > > > but it's my
> > > > > choice and that's what's important
> > > >
> > > > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> > > > women to wear the burqua?
> > > >
> > > > > give your women more credit.. give
> > > > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> > > > > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will
> all
> > > > > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
> > > >
> > > > Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he
> sake of
> > > > argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
> > > > for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
> > > > have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
> > > >
> > > > > who
> > > > > are they going to sleep with?
> > > >
> > > > ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
> > > > are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
> > > > anything to get their wicked ways.
> > > >
> > > > > shame on you.
> > > >
> > > > Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
> > > > necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
> > > > that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
> > > > people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
> > > > each to his/HER(!) own.
> > > >
> > > > > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> > > > > sensitive)
> > > >
satti is perfectly acceptable as long as it is a choice... personally i cannot
imagine a life without my precious husband.
shelley
FemFaCal
> I took a course on Islam myself in college, just to see what it really like.
> ( actually I was motivated to go by a muslim friend ). The Islam that they
> teach is definitely not the Islam that is practised.
>
> Momin wrote in message <390C2D07...@momin.com>...
> >
> >
> >FemFaCal wrote:
> >
> >> Nawaz wrote:
> >>
> >> > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> >> > >
> >> > > but this
> >> > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western girl
> >> > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with
> everyone
> >> > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
> >> >
> >> > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> >> > happen.
> >> >
> >> > > but it's my
> >> > > choice and that's what's important
> >> >
> >> > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> >> > women to wear the burqua?
> >> >
> >> > > give your women more credit.. give
> >> > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> >> > > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will
> all
> >> > > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
> >> >
> >> > Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he sake
> of
> >> > argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
> >> > for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
> >> > have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
> >> >
> >> > > who
> >> > > are they going to sleep with?
> >> >
> >> > ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
> >> > are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
> >> > anything to get their wicked ways.
> >> >
> >> > > shame on you.
> >> >
> >> > Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
> >> > necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
> >> > that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
> >> > people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
> >> > each to his/HER(!) own.
> >> >
> >> > > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> >> > > sensitive)
> >> >
> >> > No. It's good that you have come here - might open your mind to the
> >> > views and FACTs of others, instead of relying on second, third or even
> >> > fourth hand malicious propoganda.
> >> >
> >> > Nawaz.
> >>
> >> bravo Nawaz.. thank you for your most constructive and tolerant
> responses.
> >> the reason i came to this site in the first place is cuz i did a study on
> >> islam in college last year (and i'm 40!) and i found it to be nothing
> like
> >> what my preconceived notions were. the true islam is a very tolerant and
> >> peaceful belief system. i was curious as to all of the reports i read on
> the
the class i took was a religious studies class. i chose islam as my study and i
had to do all of the research myself. i learned from muslims themselves. and
in the town i live in the local mosque is filled with muslims from all over the
world. it struck me to see the differences in clothing worn by women from
different parts of the world. pakistani women wore clothing more like indian
with ornate embroidery on it and iranians wore more toned down single color but
very nice hijabs. some covered their heads, some did not. others from saudi
Arabia wore stark black from head to foot so all you could see were their eyes.
the rages was impressive. i enjoyed my interaction with all of these women.
the only men i was able to speak to were outside of the mosque and it's kinda
hard to tell them from any other guy in america. they are not required to wear
turbans or beards here so they're just like everyone else. but i did get lucky
in that there was a young muslim man in the class i was taking and he helped me
out a lot in understanding the man's view of islam.
my concern is with the taliban faction. it seems to have little to do with real
islam and everything to do with control. not only of women but of the men
also. so common and let's have some constructive conversation here. let's move
this planet and make it a better place for everyone. understanding each other
is the key to alleviating prejudice and hatred. if everyone understood each
other we would find that we have more likeness' than differences. hatred is a
result of fear and fear can be broken up by understanding. the monster in the
dark is only a harmless coat rack in the light. so let's try to turn on the
light.
shelley
FemFaCal
> You should ask your questions on uk.religion.islam or soc.religion.islam,
> this place is run by hindus who have noting else to do to antagonize.
>
> Peace,
> Mujahid
>
> --
> "Glory be to He who created me, what delight
> In what others regard as utmost pain
> Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
> And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
> An Afghan Mujahid
>
> "FemFaCal" <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> news:390C2518...@jps.net...
> > Nawaz wrote:
> >
> > > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> > > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> > > >
> > > > but this
> > > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western girl
> > > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with everyone
> > > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
> > >
> > > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> > > happen.
> > >
> > > > but it's my
> > > > choice and that's what's important
> > >
> > > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> > > women to wear the burqua?
> > >
> > > > give your women more credit.. give
> > > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> > > > allow them to leave the house alone do you really believe they will
> all
> > > > run as fast as they can into the beds of (how do i say this?) you?
> > >
> > > Those that really believe will not even think about it. But for he sake
> of
> > > argument, the statistics produced in various (women's) magazines speak
> > > for themselves - for example approx 40% of working women admit they
> > > have commited 'adultery' (betraying a partner, married or otherwise).
> > >
> > > > who
> > > > are they going to sleep with?
> > >
> > > ? What sort of question is that? Surely you know that not all men
> > > are good - there are those that have a one track mind, and will do/say
> > > anything to get their wicked ways.
> > >
> > > > shame on you.
> > >
> > > Just because you don't believe in a way of life, a culture, doesn't
> > > necessarily make it wrong. I could sit here and type lot's of things
> > > that I find wrong (or even downright offensive) with the way "you
> > > people" live your lives, but I won't. Why not? Because I believe
> > > each to his/HER(!) own.
> > >
> > > > shelley (knew i should never have come to this news group. i'm so
> > > > sensitive)
> > >
> > > No. It's good that you have come here - might open your mind to the
> > > views and FACTs of others, instead of relying on second, third or even
> > > fourth hand malicious propoganda.
> > >
> > > Nawaz.
> >
> > bravo Nawaz.. thank you for your most constructive and tolerant responses.
> > the reason i came to this site in the first place is cuz i did a study on
> > islam in college last year (and i'm 40!) and i found it to be nothing like
> > what my preconceived notions were. the true islam is a very tolerant and
> > peaceful belief system. i was curious as to all of the reports i read on
> the
there are also good hindus, buddhists, christians, etc.. unfortunately it seems
ng's bring out the worst in everyone. if i come to a ng that is not of my
particular faith, it is not to criticize (although i might feel the urge to
crack a joke now and then) it is to learn something. what use is there in
coming somewhere to close my eyes and criticize? open your eyes and learn
something. if you see something you disagree with, question it with the heart
of someone truly interested in learning rather than someone who will never
understand. some things we will never agree with. that is ok. nobody said we
have to agree 100% with everyone else in the world.. that is not required in
order to have peace. what is required is understanding and tolerance of the
differences. allowing someone to be different is not even our place. who are
we to allow or disallow anything? we are merely defective humans. n and i
challenge any of us to say we're not defective. but in the end each of us will
be judged ultimately by our prospective "gods". that's the only thing we should
be concerned with... not what you think about me or what i think about you. how
i want to change you or how you want to change me. it's all irrelevant in the
long run and in the big picture. but we do have to live together while we're
here and i choose to live in peace.
shelley
darkf...@my-deja.com
consider females as "lesser" than males???!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <20000430193922...@ng-cl1.aol.com>,
qa...@aol.com (Qatra) wrote:
> >Assalam'alaikum,
>
> Wa 'alaikum salaam.
>
> >When a woman asks questions about Islam, what makes you think they
want
> >to hear a male perspective, which is nothing more than an account of
> >your own sexual fantasies?
>
> When a woman posts in a public forum wherein both men and women are
> participating, what makes you think that men are prohibited from
addressing her
> concerns, particularly when she has made it implicitly clear that she
doesn't
> mind men doing so?
>
> And please explain to me how you are capable of knowing what is in my
heart to
> the extent that you can conclusive prove I am doing nothing more than
> expounding upon my sexual fantasies.
>
> >Its a shame that peacocks can't show some self-restraint and keep
their
> >feathers to themselves.
>
> What's more shameful is assuming the worst of your fellow Muslim's
intentions
> by assessment upon baseless suspicion {su-i zann}, which is, I remind
you,
> amongst the "Kebair" {gravest sins} of Islam.
>
> >Wa salam
>
> >sister Surayya
>
> WasSalaam,
> qatra
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mujahid
bed, I was talking to an Indian recently, according to him it is still
practiced in rural areas, most women who run away from the practice they end
up in brothels because they can not be reintegrated in to society. Any body
who watched the TV series IMORTALS, where Dunkan Macloud saves such women is
not a myth, it still happens.
You might think that I am saying that because of my bias, you are right, but
that does not make this untrue. Onslaught of so many Hindu who come here to
harass, my reaction is not out of place, you do not see me posting regularly
on Hindu news groups, infect I never use to do that, till I visited
un-moderated news groups about Islam.
Peace,
Mujahid.
--
"Glory be to He who created me, what delight
In what others regard as utmost pain
Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
An Afghan Mujahid
"FemFaCal" <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:390CE0B7...@jps.net...
FemFaCal
i have heard that it does still go on in some very remote places where
modernization is not even imagined let alone realized. but on the whole it is a
quickly dying practice. you asked how many women would want to get burned. i
think very few. but then i'm sure there are some. i would not wish to live
after my precious husband dies, and though i don't like the idea of being burned
to death there are many painless ways to join him for our eternal journey.
peace to you too. :)
shelley
Nawaz
> a trip abroad to the real Islamic world begining with Saudi Arabia and see
> for yourself the fate of women in this godforsaken religion...
>
That trip to Islamic countries will further undermine your lies and (false)
propaganda...I lived in the Middle East for 1.5 years, and one thing that
was evident was the respect for women; for example when queing to pay
your (utility) bills, women were free to join the front of the queue;
irrespective
of how many others (men!) were in the queue already, or how long they had
been waiting.
Nawaz
>
> satti is perfectly acceptable as long as it is a choice... personally i
cannot
> imagine a life without my precious husband.
Saati is one of two things; Murder, if forced, and suicide, if voluntarily.
Either
way it is Haraam (forbidden)...you are allowed chioces in Islam, but with
certain limitations - I suppose something like the laws of the (any) land,
except
these laws are from Allah.
> shelley
>
>
Mo
to commit suicide . In the last fifty years there have been only two
known cases of suttee in all of India , and in both cases the govt
charged the relatives ..
Nawaz
Momin <Mo...@momin.com> wrote in message news:390C9E5E...@momin.com...
>
> So if none of the so called "Islamic countries" with close to one billion
> population
> is indeed " truly islamic", then what the hell is Islam anyway?
A country is not Islamic, an individuals actions are.
> Surely the islam
> that we know off and is practiced by close to one billion people cant be
the
> wrong
> Islam!!
>
It isn't (wrong); it practiced in more or less the same way. The only
differences
arise in the level that an individual pratices - some more, some less.
I know you weren't really for answers, and your intentions were just to
flame,
but hey you never know...
Mujahid
real
islam and everything to do with control. not only of women but of the men
also. so common and let's have some constructive conversation here. let's
move
this planet and make it a better place for everyone. understanding each
other
is the key to alleviating prejudice and hatred. if everyone understood each
other we would find that we have more likeness' than differences. hatred is
a
result of fear and fear can be broken up by understanding. the monster in
the
dark is only a harmless coat rack in the light. so let's try to turn on
Have you met Talibans or been to Afghanistan ? or talk to some body who has
been there ? Do you know what is their position on women's education ? Do
you know any children going to schools during World war I or II and why
people do not complain about that, it is just absurd. Now in the west you
find too many spindoctors who are quick to pass a cocked eyed judgment about
situation in Afghanistan, but when these people were bombed to death, where
was UN then. Now same thing is happening in Chechnya, no body talks about
it, you hardly see CNN covering what is happening in Chechnya, for them it
is more important to show how many times Bill Clinton kissed Monica, I do
not blame them, I guess what ever sells, and in America sex sells, who cares
about Afghanis, Chechens, Bosnian, Kosovar or any body else in the world.
CNN is extension of US state department, it only covers what is in the
interest of America, may be it is subconscious support of American policies,
or its "we are number one" and rest of the world can go to hell mentality, I
do not know. For US it is more important to find Osama Bin Laden and
imposing sanctions on already war torn country to care about women, it is so
hypocritical of Americans who talk about them like that is only thing on
their minds, like it really matters to them what is happening in
Afghanistan, okay I guess may be you are different, but my cynicism is
toward overall mentality, which is prevalent in American society and
American foreign policies. My friends father's exhibits this mentality in
very few words "Bomb all the mother f******". Recently Madeline O'Brien
vetoed attempt by EU to establish criminal courts for Russian atrocities in
Chechnya, in turn Russia favors US by signing on CTBT, what a coincidence,
what happens to Chechens, who cares about those fundies.
In Afghanistan there are hand full of printing press, perhaps no building
which will pass in America for safe place for education not to talk about
ten millions mines, killing average of five people every day beside
deminers. No support from international community or even from their Muslim
brothers, no money to maintain active infrastructure. Since Taliban took
over there is relative peace, most people perhaps do not like them but they
like the peace in the country, they want to bring women's education back
after the situation normalizes, to say women are forced to wear Buraqa is
being totally ignorant of Muslim culture and local traditions. Locals
traditionally are strict Muslims, women have been using Buraqa for
centuries, its not some thing new which Taliban invented out of nothing, for
them this is not the most important issue, beating the Northern Alliance,
who plundered and fought over rule of Afghanistan as soon as Russia left, is
more important. People who do not know the Afghan/Pukhtoon culture and do
not know how it operates, you see them usually criticizing. Local tribal
wars had been waged on each other for centuries on minor issues, with the
advent of Taliban this is much rare occurrence, plus their strict
Implementation of Islamic law has improved the crime scenario, less
robberies and other crimes. Most people who accuse Taliban's direct
involvement of drug trade is absurd, perhaps they have one eye open, one eye
shut policy toward drugs, it is because of economic situation and constant
cost of war. They have made constant appeals to Northern Alliance to stop
fighting, but Northern Alliance wants nothing less them control over
Afghanistan, Talibans can not do that, it's letting tribal rivalries and
anarchy back in to the society. Afghanistan needs support from international
community, not economic sanctions. America consider fundamental Islam to be
threat to its security, that's why you see Madeline O'Brien recent visits to
Tajikistan. There is recent resurgence of Muslim identity, they want to live
according to Islam, that to US is not acceptable, perhaps US is correct in
its assumption, they would not be as easy to comply with its economical or
political goals. I for one believe that people have right to live the way
they want to, be that be Islam, communism or democracy. Who is to say Islam
is anti democratic, Islam in its essence is very democratic, but to American
its not about democracy its about vested interests, when Muslims won in
Algeria through democratic process and Algerian puppet government denied
their right to rule. American was the first one to support the puppet
government, who knows how much CIA helped them to thwart so called Islamic
fundamentalism. Then you see most Americans shocked at Algerians's terrorist
attempts on America, why they do not attack Canada ?, its amazing for some
odd reason they choose USA as their target, how they dare to. Do not get me
wrong I do not support their actions, but I do empathize with them, its out
of their desperation that they blow up the trade center or attempt to bring
explosives to USA not because they had nothing to do some day and thought of
attacking America, I think USA needs to think over its foreign policies.
I am a new generation of Muslims who are against America's anti-Muslim
foreign policies, I use to be moderate but its time to stand up to live the
way we want and not any body telling us what to do.
Sorry for my ramblings and frustrations I had to take them out on some body.
Peace,
Mujahid
Mujahid
for sure do not like it. On other news groups you might find Muslim who can
answer you question properly, rather then Hindu's who sit around on these
news groups posting crap. Do you think Mo or other trolls are seriouly
interested in finding out what blieve ?
Peace,
Mujahid
--
"Glory be to He who created me, what delight
In what others regard as utmost pain
Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
An Afghan Mujahid
"FemFaCal" <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:390CE60A...@jps.net...
Mo
went unread as she put it at the bottom of a lot of quotes..
FemFaCal
play on words) practice.
shelley
FemFaCal
shelley
Nawaz wrote:
> FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> news:390CE0B7...@jps.net...
> >
> > satti is perfectly acceptable as long as it is a choice... personally i
> cannot
> > imagine a life without my precious husband.
>
Chirag Patnaik
of
>attacking America, I think USA needs to think over its foreign policies.
I can agree with that, it is not only in the islamic world but also many
other countries that the US is a country that every one loves to hate
--
Chirag Patnaik
cpat...@email.com
http://india.4mg.com/, The very best of Indian Links
http://ebooks.4mg.com/, EBooks, read your favourite classics online in an
easy to read format (Still under Construction)
http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/, A little self Glorification (Boasting about
Myself is my Birthright)
http://blog.chiragpatnaik.com/, Read the Ramblings and Rants of a maniac,
namely me
__________________________________________________________
Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
FemFaCal
want or expect from the US. is it help for afghanistan? staying out of it? i
really don't know. either way is not wise for the US in my opinion. if we help
then we are helping those who think all americans are satan.. if we don't help
we are inhumane. (personally i would help even if you were calling me satan all
day everyday) but politically it is more difficult. i agree that people should
be able to live as they wish to live. everyone. but if a muslim comes to
america they must live by american law.. and if they become the majority, that
does not mean that american law should be turned into islamic law.. it means
that the laws that allowed them to live here and practice their beliefs without
putting restrictions on other religions should always be adhered to. it is how
we live in peace here... no dominating religious structure condemning any
other. when immigration turns into invasion then it's time to fight for what is
customarily yours... so the day you find americans knocking on your border and
telling you what religious practices you have to practice.. fight.. fight to the
last one.. but don't say it's ok to come here and kill us who have never (that i
know of in my limited and humble little mind) set foot in afghanistan except to
supply her with weaponry for war!
how did we become satan anyway? that's something that's been baffling me for
years. i'm just an average american and i know most americans wonder the same
thing... maybe the politicians know why we're thought of that way but surely the
masses don't. it is only because we are not a majority muslim country? i just
don't know???
1Man4All
(pardon the
>play on words) practice.
>shelley
See This Report from CNN:
Bride-burning claims hundreds in India
Practice sometimes disguised as suicide or accident
August 18, 1996
Web posted at: 11:30 a.m. EDT (1530 GMT)
NEW DELHI, India (CNN) -- In parts of India, husbands regard
their wives as property that apparently can be disposed of at
will. Indian police say that every year they receive more than
2,500 reports of bride-burning -- a form of domestic abuse often
disguised as an accident or suicide.
These women are burned to death over wealth -- because their
husbands or in-laws are unhappy with the size of the dowry that
accompanied them into the marriage.
The number such cases reported to police is rising, due either
to an increase in the number of burnings or to more willingness
by victims to report them. And should the woman survive, the
toll is heavy.
Three years ago, Sunita Bhargava was married with children --
and, she said, emotionally abused by her husband and mother-in-
law.
"My mother-in-law used to say that my husband was too educated
for me, that he didn't get a fair dowry," said Bhargava, who now
lives alone in a New Delhi slum.
The emotional abuse eventually turned physical, she said, when
her husband and his mother scalded her with boiling water.
Desperate and in pain, Bhargava dowsed herself in kerosene and
set herself on fire, severely burning 40 percent of her body.
"I miss my daughter and fear the evil that may befall her," she
said. "Though I passed these times, somehow, to my children I am
dead."
Police have set up special offices where women can report cases
of domestic abuse, but Mohini Giri, head of India's National
Commission for Women, said she believes the authorities need to
do more.
"Fire was used by most people who did this kind of crime ...
(because) they thought that they will not leave any evidence
behind," she said. "Whereas if you use a knife, there is an
evidence that someone else has done it."
The practice is unlikely to end soon, however, as long as
current Hindu attitudes about the place of women in a marriage
prevail. Those attitudes -- and the practice of bride-burning --
cast an ironic pall over a tradition of the Hindu marriage
ceremony in which the bride and groom walk together around a
flame.
STATISTICS ON WIDOWS OF INDIA:
From: http://www.oneworld.org/index_oc/issue298/stats.html
Traditional Hindu customs dictate that when women are widowed
they have to shave their hair, stop wearing jewellery & not
appear in public.
Widows in Bangladesh and India are referred to as `Rand',
`Randi', Rake' and `Daken' -prostitute, harlot, whore, and witch
respectively.
Hindu superstition holds widows responsible for the death of
their husbands.
In India, widows are said to have 85% higher mortality rates
than married women.
There are 25 million widows in India. Among women aged 60 and
over 60% are widows.
In the Southern Indian town of Kerala, widows receive 65 rupees
a month - the equivallent to two days wages for men.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
FemFaCal
with a lot of old customs.. it will take time to wake them to the 21st century.
i feel terribly sorry for the widows if it is true they're called whores
(although who would buy an old woman is what i wanna know). india has a long
way to go still but i believe she will make it and eventually come out smelling
like a rose. as i am a fan of all countries and people, i sure hope so.
shelley
1Man4All
<femf...@jps.net> wrote:
>sounds like it still goes on but at least it's illegal now..
it's an old country
>with a lot of old customs.. it will take time to wake them to
the 21st century.
>i feel terribly sorry for the widows if it is true they're
called whores
>(although who would buy an old woman is what i wanna know).
india has a long
>way to go still but i believe she will make it and eventually
come out smelling
>like a rose. as i am a fan of all countries and people, i sure
hope so.
>shelley
It is illegal only on paper. There is hardly any law enforcement
for crimes against women due to the influence of the powerful
Hindu groups. If you search on the web, you will find that the
treatment of Hindu women is directly due to a cultural climate
created by the Hindu religion itself. The culture is governed by
religious rules rather than the laws of the country. For
example, even here in America, Hindu boys cannot marry outside
of their caste system, and if they do, their children will not
be allowed to marry within the same caste. I know this because I
have worked with several Hindus.
The irony is that most Hindus do not look at their own religion
and culture but are the first to criticize others. It is like
going on an offensive before you can be put on the defensive,
and for all the right reasons.
1Man4All
<femf...@jps.net> wrote:
>sounds like it still goes on but at least it's illegal now..
it's an old country
>with a lot of old customs.. it will take time to wake them to
the 21st century.
>i feel terribly sorry for the widows if it is true they're
called whores
>(although who would buy an old woman is what i wanna know).
india has a long
>way to go still but i believe she will make it and eventually
come out smelling
>like a rose. as i am a fan of all countries and people, i sure
hope so.
>shelley
It is illegal only on paper. There is hardly any law enforcement
for crimes against women due to the influence of the powerful
Hindu groups. If you search on the web, you will find that the
treatment of Hindu women is directly due to a cultural climate
created by the Hindu religion itself. The culture is governed by
religious rules rather than laws of the country. For example,
even here in America, Hindu boys cannot marry outside of their
caste system, and if they do, their children will not be allowed
to marry within the same caste. I know this because I have
worked with several Hindus.
The irony is that most Hindus do not look at their own religion
and culture but are the first to criticize others. It is like
going on an offensive before you can be put on the defensive,
and for all the right reasons
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
abc
Islam. That's why you are so angry, because you are scared that what you
believed in all along, may be wrong and not everyone like it.
Mujahid wrote in message
<51B5DB4CE72DDA7D.52DF0554...@lp.airnews.net>...
abc
still like them.
Mujahid wrote in message ...
abc
them. You expect people to respect your beliefs while you attack theirs.
Mujahid wrote in message
<327453C0DA1737CB.D084E83D...@lp.airnews.net>...
FemFaCal
cultures and religions.. the fact that so many religions have existed peacefully
in india for so many centuries is a testament to that. i realize that now there
is beginning to be trouble on the northern front between muslims and indians..
that is a british conspiracy to divide and rule. and also there are some
christian factions now that are being attacked in parts of india as well.
christians in india are an abomination... they go to the poorest communities and
offer goods for loyalty. as if a hungry person will say no to anything for some
food. if they were true christians they would simply go there and feed the
hungry without force feeding them christianity while they were at it. i said
before i know a few hindus but there is one very very important hindu (although
not practicing) in my life... it is my husband. he is very loving and tolerant
of all religions. he is from kerala india and has nothing but praise for the
Muslims who live there (and by the way there are many muslims in kerala). he
only has good things to say about muslims, christians, buddhists and every other
kind of person that there is. i was shocked when i went to the hindu site and
saw hindus talking trash about muslims and muslims talking trash about hindus as
my experience with hindus is that they are very gentle and accepting people
(this is also my experience with the muslims i know personally. i don't know if
their being in the US is the reason for their tolerance or if they are truly
accepting of other religions though. they seem to be sincere). so when you say
that "most hindus...are the first to criticize others" i think it is unfair to
the hundreds of millions of good hindus who accept and even sometimes praise
other religions. i am not hindu. i am a buddhist (a non-warring belief system)
so it is very difficult for me to understand wars in the name of god. that is
one of the reasons (among many) that i am here. to learn and understand how
other people think and why they do what they do. i'm not here to criticize
(although i have lost it once or twice over pure meanness) and i'm not here to
be criticized. i don't want to tell you what you should believe and how I think
you should act.. that's not my place. and i don't want to be told what to
believe, that's not what i'm here for... i have studied more about islam than
your average american (which isn't saying much since your average american knows
nothing about it) and find that it is just not for me...
it is my hope that someday all of the nations of the world can rise above war
and live in a permanent peace with what ever god they chose to believe in. then
we will really see progress take place.
please comment.
shelley
1Man4All wrote:
> In article <390DA206...@jps.net>, FemFaCal
> <femf...@jps.net> wrote:
> >sounds like it still goes on but at least it's illegal now..
> it's an old country
> >with a lot of old customs.. it will take time to wake them to
> the 21st century.
> >i feel terribly sorry for the widows if it is true they're
> called whores
> >(although who would buy an old woman is what i wanna know).
> india has a long
> >way to go still but i believe she will make it and eventually
> come out smelling
> >like a rose. as i am a fan of all countries and people, i sure
> hope so.
> >shelley
>
> It is illegal only on paper. There is hardly any law enforcement
> for crimes against women due to the influence of the powerful
> Hindu groups. If you search on the web, you will find that the
> treatment of Hindu women is directly due to a cultural climate
> created by the Hindu religion itself. The culture is governed by
> religious rules rather than the laws of the country. For
> example, even here in America, Hindu boys cannot marry outside
> of their caste system, and if they do, their children will not
> be allowed to marry within the same caste. I know this because I
> have worked with several Hindus.
>
> The irony is that most Hindus do not look at their own religion
> and culture but are the first to criticize others. It is like
> going on an offensive before you can be put on the defensive,
> and for all the right reasons.
Mirza Ghalib
nation we can look up to as a model. If it is exactly
like what it should be according to you, I will be
tempted to become a Mussalman myself.
Arshad Mahmood wrote:
> "abc" <up-y...@together.net> wrote in message
> news:390c...@news.together.net...
Mirza Ghalib
Muslims as 1.9 billion. It is growing like wild fire.
1Man4All
You seem like a real sweet person, and your husband is a very
lucky man to have a wife like you.
I have always said that there are good people and bad people in
every country, group and religion. As soon as you have made up
your mind about a certain group, God shows you another person
who proves you completely wrong.
What we are discussing here is not the role of the individuals
but the cultural climate, which force many individuals to carry
out disgraceful acts. Human beings are basically the same, but
how they react is mostly a function of their culture. Cultures
are influenced by religion, but the two are not the same. There
is always a dichotomy between what is religiously acceptable and
what is politically correct.
You are correct that India is an old country with many ancient
rites and practices. There is also a big difference between the
northern states of India and the southern states. Southern
Indians, such as people from Kerala, are less divided by
religion and do not have the same politico-religious zealousness
which the northern Indians have.
Southern Indians are mostly of Dravidian race which originally
inhabited India. Northern Indians, on the other hand, are of a
mixed race made up of Aryans and Dravidians. The Caste System
was originally based on how much Aryan blood you had. To get an
idea of what India was before the Muslims arrived, please look
up "The Laws of Manu", which you can find on the internet.
Most northern Hindus will never acknowledge this, but Islam had
a very positive influence on the Indian society. Many of the
evil practices which prevailed, disappeared due to the
egalitarian views of Islam. What is painful is that many Hindus
distort this historical fact and present Islam and Muslims as an
oppressive force throughout Indian history. Even the British who
ruled for nearly two centuries, I believe, did many good things
by building institutions which are surviving to this day.
We should not blame the British for other issues as well, as you
have suggested. We have only ourselves to blame. I believe that
you should always start with self-criticism. You seem to have
that God-given gift, and you should truly congratulate yourself
on that.
Most Muslims belittle Hindus, which is wrong. Muslims also see
the Hindu idols as an anathema, and they feel that they can put
up with just about anybody except the Hindus. Some of it is also
political. Hindus have never accepted Pakistan and discriminate
against the Muslims of India, instead, as a way of tit for tat.
What I mostly criticize, if I may, is the tendency in the Indian
culture to blame everything on others except for themselves.
They have also been taught, it seems, to keep up a negative
campaign against the Muslims, which is very destructive. There
are very few Muslims, for example, who go and bash Hindu
religion in Hindu newsgroups; however, you can find at least
half a dozen Hindus here on any given day antagonizing Muslims
with their lies and propaganda. Why is that?
My answer to that is that there are many Hindus who are secretly
ashamed of their religion and culture, and the only way they can
justify them is by throwing dirt on other religions and
cultures. You should just count the number of negative posts
coming from Hindus in this newsgroup. Sometimes I feel that they
are trying to take it over. I never hear a peep of criticism
against them from the supposedly 'good' Hindus.
If your feelings have been hurt by my remarks, please forgive
me. Contrary to what you may think, We ALL want peace in this
world. And it will only come about when the antagonists have
been silenced, when the greed is curbed, and respect and rights
for all are ensured.
In article <390DB0F9...@jps.net>, FemFaCal
Mujahid
of our way, it's that simple, below is an article which sheds light on why
Khomeini called USA big SATAN, not that I agree with him on every point, but
I agree with him on America's bullying of poor nation in to submission, its
American way or the high way.
Understanding the hypocrisy of the US - the rogue superpower or 'shaytan-e
buzurg'
Zafar Bangash, Director of the Institute of Contemporary Islamic Thought,
reminds us all of the true nature of the US, and why Imam Khomeini memorably
called it "shaytan-e buzurg" - the great satan
[Crescent International, April 16-30, 2000.]
The title "rogue superpower", or "shaytan-e buzurg" in Imam Khomeini's
celebrated phrase, commonly used for the US is not merely political
rhetoric; it is the deeply felt and perceptive view of people wounded by
America's crude and arrogant policies. What is even more revealing is that
these feelings are not confined to those directly targeted by Uncle Sam;
even its European allies have started to feel uneasy about the uncouth
behaviour of the overbearing uncle.
Former South African president Nelson Mandela subjected the US and Britain
to a severe tongue-lashing while visiting London on April 5. Mandela, no
gun-toting revolutionary although he speaks his mind now that he no longer
carries the burden of office, said that Washington's utter disregard of
international law and UN security council decisions were giving cause for
concern. He also blasted London for kowtowing to Uncle Sam's desires so
meekly.
This is most clearly visible in the manner in which Iraq has been subjected
to punishing sanctions since 1991. The ostensible reason is that the US
wants to overthrow Iraqi president Saddam Husain. Quite aside from the fact
that overthrowing Saddam is none of America's business, it is even more
perverse that 1.5 million Iraqi children should be starved to death for the
sake of one man, however criminal and unpleasant he may be. Moreover, the US
bears direct responsibility for Saddam's monstrous behaviour. US secretary
of state Madeleine Albright admitted on March 17 that US support for Saddam
during the Iraqi-imposed war against Iran was "ill-conceived." It was
America's financial and military support, as well as the supply of technical
expertise and ingredients by other western powers, that enabled Saddam to
manufacture the chemical weapons that today are being touted as
justifications for branding him an international outlaw. (The weapons were
used against Iran without any protest from the west.) The coalition of 29
countries that the US led in 1991 to oust Saddam from Kuwait has today been
reduced to a grand total of two: the US and Britain.
The much-celebrated (by the Americans, of course) Harvard professor Samuel
Huntington points to a "shrinking circle of governments who see their
interests coinciding with those of the United States." He points in
particular to the shrinking support the US has in the UN security council,
which consistently split along 4-1 in favour of America in earlier years
against the erstwhile Soviet Union. No more, Huntington tells us. America's
comfortable majority has degenerated into a potential standoff, with the US
and Britain siding against Russia and China, and France holding a swing
vote.
Huntington is not alone in expressing dismay at American behaviour. "We've
lost the sense of what we're really good at: getting people to join us,"
Brent Scowcroft, national security adviser during the Reagan and Bush
administrations, said in a recent interview. "We don't think as much about
the effects of our actions on other people. We don't consult, we don't ask
ahead of time. We behave to much of the world like a latter-day colonial
power. It's a very dangerous thing that's happening."
'Third world' countries such as Pakistan can take comfort in the fact that
America's overbearing attitude is beginning to irk its allies as well. The
Europeans in particular are appalled at the manner in which Washington
imposes its will, totally disregarding the feelings and concerns of others.
During Clinton's recent visit to Pakistan, mercifully only for a few hours,
he demanded that Islamabad get Osama bin Laden from Afghanistan and hand him
over to the US for trial. America has made outrageous allegations against
the Saudi mujahid but - contrary to the Taliban's reasonable demand - has
provided no evidence of any wrongdoing on his part.
The US demands that its allegations be immediately accepted without any
questions asked. The Taliban are not alone in doubting them. After all, it
was top US officials, particularly national security advisor Sandy Berger
and secretary of state Madeleine Albright, who lied through their teeth
about the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Sudan producing chemical weapons,
which the US bombed to destruction on August 20, 1998. Both senior US
officials lied on television about the factory and tried to justify America'
s criminal act in destroying it with cruise missiles. Both the reasons and
the action were illegal, immoral and criminal. It amounted to state
terrorism but this is what the US and its Middle Eastern ward, the zionist
state of Israel are good at.
Born through terrorism and baptised in the blood of innocent people, Israel'
s crimes are underwritten by the US. The Middle East has had no peace since
the implantation of the zionist monstrosity into the heartland of Islam. One
of its most horrendous crimes was the slaughter of 102 Lebanese civilians
who had taken shelter in a UN compound in Qana on April 18, 1996. For 12
minutes, Israeli artillery deliberately targeted the compound, guided by a
drone pilotless plane flying overhead. When the UN could not whitewash this
latest Israeli crime, the US punished the pro-west and pro-zionist Coptic
secretary general, Boutros Boutros-Ghali (whose wife incidentally is the
sister of the wife of Shimon Peres, the former Israeli prime minister and
defence minister, who is also the principal architect of the Israeli nuclear
programme) for having the nerve to release the damning report.
But Boutros-Ghali is small fry in the international arena. While the US
insists that other countries sign the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty
(CTBT) limiting nuclear arms, its own senate rejected it last October.
This is not the only US hypocrisy. In 1997, US president Bill Clinton
declined to join more than 130 other countries in signing a treaty banning
the use of landmines, insisting that the United States is a "special case."
Likewise, the US refused to join more than 90 countries establishing an
international criminal court in 1998, after unsuccessfully demanding
absolute and automatic immunity from prosecution for American soldiers and
diplomats. Delegates to the founding conference for the court cheered the
defeat of a US attempt to exempt American soldiers - even though they
accepted that the UN security council, with its US veto, should approve
cases for prosecution. The US, on the other hand, insists that its law must
apply to other countries and that they must comply with American demands.
There are compelling reasons for resentment towards the US. Will Uncle Sam
change his attitude? No one should hold his breath. Only a series of rude
shocks is likely to bring the greedy and arrogant uncle to his senses. In
the meantime, people around the world, especially Muslims, should work to
increase America's isolation. Nothing will be gained by getting closer to
the great Satan.
FemFaCal
response. thank you very much. i think there is hope in this world if we can
just talk and respect each other. let's keep up dialogues like this and watch
how the world (even if it is only this ng's or only yours and mine) changes for
the better.
humbly yours,
shelley
Raghu Seshadri
1Man4All (forahmad...@hotmail.com.invalid) wrote:
:
<crap deleted>
: What I mostly criticize, if I may, is the tendency in the Indian
: culture to blame everything on others except for themselves.
You will have the right to pontificate when
you begin to criticize yourself. As you haven't,
what gives you the right to expect others to
criticize themselves ?
RS
FemFaCal
in that very same sentence you say "if american can not help, stay out of our
way". what can we do to help? and is helping something you want from us?
concerning your article about why we are satan... it seems sanctions against
iran is one issue. i'll tackle that issue first and if i haven't' rattled on too
long i'll continue. if you've been reading any of my postings you will guess
that i am totally against causing any kind of suffering to anyone. but the
propaganda in america says that all of the aid that was going to Iraq was lining
the pockets of Hussain and going towards the building of his multi million
dollar palaces while the sick and hungry stayed sick and hungry. (even had news
footage to prove it! aren't' you impressed?) but honestly.. i don't believe
everything my government controlled media feed to me and i asked myself if this
was a reasonable thing to believe.. it is not. while i do think saddam is a
ruthless leader i don't think he's so callous as to build a high life for
himself while the masses are suffering. and i don't believe american's had any
business fighting a war there. (seems though that when ever someone is being
oppressed they call of us and we run to help.. but then we are evil to the
people we helped against... it's a no win proposition if you ask me) but i may
be wrong.. i'm no expert on saddam hussain. but now we get to the good part..
WHAT CAN I OR MY FELLOW AMERICAN'S DO ABOUT IT? i've written letters to my
congress woman practically begging her not to support such policy. a lot of
good that does. my letters go past her desk like an ant on the floor... now, if
every american who saw the injustice in this policy wrote to their respective
congressmen/women, something would surely happen. (probably more propaganda so
as to change our convictions) but as is the nature of america to be free i don't
think most of us swallow what is fed to us.. cept maybe the ignorant hill
billies who've never even taken a course in government. so i ask you
sincerely. what can we do to change this feeling of hatred toward us? i mean
the american people.. the government probably deserves it as i sit here and
watch cspan (our government channel which shows the house of representatives and
the senate working {at nothing} all day every day) and they surely don't deserve
much praise. i feel they are the village idiots who were lucky enough to be
born into money or position and have no grasp of what is good or evil. it
doesn't seem to matter to them as long as there is profit involved and they can
keep their $300,000 a year salary for doing almost nothing... of course, as in
societies, there are the good and the bad in the government too. some are
really there for the betterment of the country and the world at large and are
humane people. but they are vastly outnumbered by the corrupt and callous. (my
rant on the american government which are views, i'll bet, are held by at least
80% of the american people). well, that's enough for now.. thanks again for
your friendly response.
shelley :)
Mujahid
attacked before you then you have a point
Fact is that your brethren are coming here to insult Muslims perhaps since
the inception of this news group. Yes I am biased but not against Hindus in
general, if I do become frustrated here is exactly because people like you,
Mo and other Hindus. Past whole month I only posted one article on Hindu
news group, "Hinduism revealed", you on the other hand insulted our Prophet
(pbuh) every time you been here. Hindus at my work place would beat you up
for talking to me like that, I treated them nicely ever time, find
apartments for them, give them rides when they did not have any ride, gave
them rides to grocery stores, If I show frustration here is not because of
them its because of you. I hired them not because they were Hindus because
some of them had good qualification but few were fake.You should not talk
too much and wait for me, and please do not think I am not going to show up,
I am not sure you met an Afghan before but this will be your prime
opportunity. As far you accusation that I am not interested in learning
other's beliefs, how do you know that, I not only read Christian and Jewish
scriptures but also Hindu scriptures too, have you read Qur'an ?
Peace,
Mujahid.
Arshad Mahmood
"Mirza Ghalib" <urv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:390DC8D4...@ix.netcom.com...
>
But I have already said to you, there are *NO* Islamic countries, actually
to me the notion of an *Islamic* country is an oxymoron. The vast majority
of what is in the Quran and the hadith regards the personal actions of an
individual. The only places in the Quran where one can detect a "system"
distinct from the individual is "law", where clearly people are judged and
punished. For everything else it is the individuals duty to practice what is
being preached, and he will be held to account at the day of judgement.
Even the verses which may be regarded as "law" giving perhaps number less
than 50, hardly a basis for forming a whole legal structure. Therefore, a
great deal has had to be invented, extrapolated, manipulated, etc. This was
not necessarily done maliciously, a system of government was required and
people have come up with one, but let's be clear the vast majority of it is
invention.
Regards,
Arshad
Kulbir Singh
: 1Man4All (forahmad...@hotmail.com.invalid) wrote:
: :
: <crap deleted>
It seems preaching without practice is on the rise
on the usenet.
Indians should get united and fight this serious
menace to the peace and prosperity of law abiding
citizens and defeat the nefarious designs of
anti-national evil forces who desire to undermine
the tolerant, democratic, secular fabric of the
scientific temperament of a pluralistic society
by pressing into service the cutting edge technologies
of fuzzy-lithography, hierarchical beta-testing,
intellectual optics and adaptive hieroglyphics.
regards,
Kulbir Singh
: RS
FemFaCal
rule. is that good enough? i never hear of muslims against muslims or muslims
against anyone here or anyone against the muslims. so it must be successful.
maybe everything is not as all muslims wish it could be but we all feel that
way.. everything is never how everyone wants it to be. but it's pretty good
nonetheless. i wish all muslims could visit here and see what it is like for
them in america. i think they would see us differently if they did. at least i
hope that would be the case.
shelley
Mujahid
like him now, If I had any choice he would have been dead. American
sanctions are making Sadaam stronger but rest of Iraq is suffering. First US
created Sadaam, then they tested effectiveness of their new weapon on Iraq,
mean while not only creating better economy for American but also killing
many civilians and creating permanent solution to control OPEC, killing two
birds with one stone is an understatement. Nations like Israel and India
who are in clear violation of UN resolutions are not terrorist, but the
nation who are fighting for there identity are declared terrorist. Like I
said I do not want any thing from anybody, you showed interest in
Afghanistan so I tried to inform you, perhaps with some cynicism, with the
situation there. Then you asked why people call US great Satan, then I
posted another article to show you my perspective. You asked me what you can
do to change the situation, I do not know, perhaps show your support,
educate your fellow Americans, write a letter to you senator, I guess that
is a democratic way, or am I wrong ? But there are few who have different
way to boost this ant walk, these new generation of liberals , who protested
against IMF, perhaps can show some support for these countries too and
against US ruthless foreign policies. Please If I shout at you, that does
not mean I am only yelling at you, I know that there are other who might
agree, or perhaps could help, that is my way to change things.
Rep. Tony Hall: Thank You for Acknowledging the Suffering in Iraq, But...
http://www.iviews.com/scripts/articles/stories/default.cfm?id=5129&category_
id=39
Peace,
Mujahid
--
"Glory be to He who created me, what delight
In what others regard as utmost pain
Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
An Afghan Mujahid
"FemFaCal" <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:390DD312...@jps.net...
Rajesh Kamath
:>thx mo.. didn't' know that. but knew it was an almost dead
: (pardon the
:>play on words) practice.
:>shelley
: See This Report from CNN:
: Bride-burning claims hundreds in India
: Practice sometimes disguised as suicide or accident
Bride-burning, of course, is not the same as Sati. Why make the distinction?
Because bride burning is EQUALLY prevalent across religions in South Asia,
including among Pakistani Muslims. This was discussed at length in a
hideously long thread; suffice it to say you can check the State Department
Human Rights Report on Pakistan for confirmation. It has NOTHING to do
with religion directly. OTOH, the religions should share some of the
blame for the low status of women which makes such crimes against women
possible.
Sati, on the other hand, is confined to Hindus but is almost completely
dead.
Rajesh
: August 18, 1996
: current Hindu attitudes about the place of women in a marriage
: prevail. Those attitudes -- and the practice of bride-burning --
: cast an ironic pall over a tradition of the Hindu marriage
: ceremony in which the bride and groom walk together around a
: flame.
: STATISTICS ON WIDOWS OF INDIA:
: From: http://www.oneworld.org/index_oc/issue298/stats.html
: Traditional Hindu customs dictate that when women are widowed
: they have to shave their hair, stop wearing jewellery & not
: appear in public.
: Widows in Bangladesh and India are referred to as `Rand',
: `Randi', Rake' and `Daken' -prostitute, harlot, whore, and witch
: respectively.
: Hindu superstition holds widows responsible for the death of
: their husbands.
: In India, widows are said to have 85% higher mortality rates
: than married women.
: There are 25 million widows in India. Among women aged 60 and
: over 60% are widows.
: In the Southern Indian town of Kerala, widows receive 65 rupees
: a month - the equivallent to two days wages for men.
: * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
1Man4All
though some of my co-religionists may not agree with me. I, for
one, appreciate the freedom, the rule of law, economic and
educational opportunities, and most of all acceptance. I think
most Muslims who live here, love this country and would not live
anywhere else. One thing they do not like, however, is the US
foreign policy, which they think is hurting other Muslims around
the world. If they are resentful at times, it is a frustration
at not being heard; moreover, their efforts in trying to educate
the American people about the issues that concerns them are not
welcome in the Media. They seem to be saying, "look, we are
people too, and we have rights in this world as much as you do.
And stop labeling us." They correctly suspect that the media has
been fooling most Americans, and the truth is not coming out. I
will write more on this issue later.
Just a few little things by the US government would go a long
way in alleviating the concerns of the Muslims:
-Exert influence on Israel to resolve the Mid-East issue. So far
most of the pressure has been on the Arabs to give in.
-Pull forces out of the Gulf. Most Muslims equate keeping
military forces with keeping political dominance, which is no
different than colonialism. This is especially painful when
these same forces are helping to perpetuate unpopular regimes.
-Politically support the basic rights of Kosovars, Chechens,
Kashmiris, and Palestinians. They are not asking for anything
more than what the people of Quebec, Scotland and Puerto Rico
already enjoy, which is the right of self-determination.
-Stop supporting brutal monarchies in the Arab world. Without
the support of US and Britain, these monarchies will not last a
day.
By doing these things, the United States will not be loosing
anything. In fact, it will gain the support of one billion
Muslims around the world.
The United States needs to realize that if it wants to stay a
leader in the world, it needs to support the principles of
equality and fairness for all, not just to protect national
interests which may be ephemeral.
In article <390DD932...@jps.net>, FemFaCal
<femf...@jps.net> wrote:
>islam seems to be working very well in america where religious
tolerance is the
>rule. is that good enough? i never hear of muslims against
muslims or muslims
>against anyone here or anyone against the muslims. so it must
be successful.
>maybe everything is not as all muslims wish it could be but we
all feel that
>way.. everything is never how everyone wants it to be. but it's
pretty good
>nonetheless. i wish all muslims could visit here and see what
it is like for
>them in america. i think they would see us differently if they
did. at least i
>hope that would be the case.
>shelley
>
abc
friends.
Mujahid wrote in message ...
>I never attacked any body first, If you can show me one place were I
>attacked before you then you have a point
>Fact is that your brethren are coming here to insult Muslims perhaps since
>the inception of this news group. Yes I am biased but not against Hindus in
>general, if I do become frustrated here is exactly because people like you,
>Mo and other Hindus. Past whole month I only posted one article on Hindu
>news group, "Hinduism revealed", you on the other hand insulted our Prophet
>(pbuh) every time you been here. Hindus at my work place would beat you up
>for talking to me like that, I treated them nicely ever time, find
>apartments for them, give them rides when they did not have any ride, gave
>them rides to grocery stores, If I show frustration here is not because of
>them its because of you. I hired them not because they were Hindus because
>some of them had good qualification but few were fake.You should not talk
>too much and wait for me, and please do not think I am not going to show
up,
>I am not sure you met an Afghan before but this will be your prime
>opportunity. As far you accusation that I am not interested in learning
>other's beliefs, how do you know that, I not only read Christian and Jewish
>scriptures but also Hindu scriptures too, have you read Qur'an ?
>
>
>Peace,
>Mujahid.
>
>
Mujahid
minister of Afghanistan and how American sanctions will affect people.
http://www.iviews.com/scripts/articles/stories/default.cfm?id=2451&category_
id=40&ivd=article
Peace,
Mujahid
--
"Glory be to He who created me, what delight
In what others regard as utmost pain
Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
An Afghan Mujahid
"Mujahid" <re...@pdq.net> wrote in message
news:DD2FDC082F6CC614.99527D6A...@lp.airnews.net...
Nitin
programs. We cannot in good conscience allow capital into Iraq that will
ultimately be used for such programs. Nitin Batra.
Momin
1Man4All wrote:
Like hell! Islam had no influence on Indian society. You need to read
islamic history of India as told by islamic historians. The only thing
good about Islam was that it brought historians who meticulously reported
what they saw in contrast to Hindu historians who except a handful,
you couldn't and still cant ever trust...
> Many of the
> evil practices which prevailed, disappeared due to the
> egalitarian views of Islam.
Name a few...
> What is painful is that many Hindus
> distort this historical fact and present Islam and Muslims as an
> oppressive force throughout Indian history.
What the hell are you babbling about? It is theHindu historians
who have distorted the history of Islam and presented a
distorted and watered down version of real Islam. In this
context, you only have to look to Islamic historians who give
a true picture...
Mujahid
slathered and subjugated the local population, they never scored big on the
world arena. They even beat china, who is the perhaps only country ever body
ran over, from Mongols to recently Japan. India is worst Mongols, Mamluks,
Moghals, Portuguese and British, they all ruled over India, she only ruled
it self and most of the time ruled buy others. You don't find India's
historical legacy any where in the world except in India, fact is that, even
during Muslim's down fall they manage to snatch part of India and still are
trying to get some more, if India keep persecuting it's minorities, there
would be more nabbing, 200 million Muslims are waiting, not to mention Assam
and other who are tired of it, and do not forget Khalistan. That is why you
do not find, Alexander the Great, Cyrus the Great, Mahmood Ghaznavi and
Muhammad bin Qasim in Indian history, I guess it all depends on ideology,
great ideologies produce powerful men. Even the unorganized Mongol hordes
scored better then India.
Peace,
Mujahid.
--
"Glory be to He who created me, what delight
In what others regard as utmost pain
Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
An Afghan Mujahid
"Mo" <mo2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nhmP4.6532$OO6.6...@nnrp4.clara.net...
> The truth is that Muslims are no master race .
> The Hindus and Sikhs had defeated them in all parts of India
> and were ruling Pakistan , Kashmir , most of Central India ,
> South etc. BEFORE the British arrived and saved Islam
> -otherwise it would have been turfed out of India .
> The Islamic Jihadists of Pakistan are giving India the
> perfect excuse to finish the job , tnere is still time for
> Pakistan to come to its senses and withdraw the Muj killers
> from Indian Kashmir ..
>
Momin
FemFaCal wrote:
> Mujahid wrote:
>
> > And yea please do not forget to stop by in india and watch the Saati first
> > hand, where women are burned alive with their dead husbands.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Mujahid.
> >
> > --
> > "Glory be to He who created me, what delight
> > In what others regard as utmost pain
> > Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
> > And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
> > An Afghan Mujahid
> >
> > "Momin" <Mo...@momin.com> wrote in message
> > news:390C2D07...@momin.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > FemFaCal wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nawaz wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:390BE6AD...@jps.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > but this
> > > > > > treatment in the name of god is too much to absorb for a western
> > girl
> > > > > > (who, by the way, is totally free and does not fornicate with
> > everyone
> > > > > > anyone for that matter, except my one and only husband).
> > > > >
> > > > > Just because you don't sleep around, it doesn't mean that it doesn't
> > > > > happen.
> > > > >
> > > > > > but it's my
> > > > > > choice and that's what's important
> > > > >
> > > > > ...and what makes you think that it's not the choice of many of these
> > > > > women to wear the burqua?
> > > > >
> > > > > > give your women more credit.. give
> > > > > > yourselves more credit... if you take your women out of burqua's and
> > > Contrary to what you are taught here in US, it might help you if took
> > > a trip abroad to the real Islamic world begining with Saudi Arabia and see
> > > for yourself the fate of women in this godforsaken religion...
> > >
>
> satti is perfectly acceptable as long as it is a choice... personally i cannot
> imagine a life without my precious husband.
> shelley
Maybe so, but suicide is wrong and can not be condoned in one form or other...
Momin
Nawaz wrote:
> Momin <Mo...@momin.com> wrote in message news:390C2D07...@momin.com...
> >
> > Contrary to what you are taught here in US, it might help you if took
> > a trip abroad to the real Islamic world begining with Saudi Arabia and see
> > for yourself the fate of women in this godforsaken religion...
> >
>
> That trip to Islamic countries will further undermine your lies and (false)
> propaganda...I lived in the Middle East for 1.5 years, and one thing that
> was evident was the respect for women; for example when queing to pay
> your (utility) bills, women were free to join the front of the queue;
> irrespective
> of how many others (men!) were in the queue already, or how long they had
> been waiting.
In how many Islamic countries are women allowed to vote?
In how many Islamic countries are women not stoned to death?
In how many countries is the testimony of women equal to that of men?
In how many islamic countries can women marry four men?
In how many Islamic countries can women get equal inheritance
to that of men?
In how many Islamic countries are women allowed to dress less
in 100 plus temperatures?
In how many Islamic countries are honor killings disallowed?
In how many islamic countries is female genital mutilation a crime?
In how many Islamic countries is having sex with underage girls
a crime?
Momin
Nawaz wrote:
> Momin <Mo...@momin.com> wrote in message news:390C9E5E...@momin.com...
> >
> > So if none of the so called "Islamic countries" with close to one billion
> > population
> > is indeed " truly islamic", then what the hell is Islam anyway?
>
> A country is not Islamic, an individuals actions are.
Why is there an Islamic nation of pakistan?
>
>
> > Surely the islam
> > that we know off and is practiced by close to one billion people cant be
> the
> > wrong
> > Islam!!
> >
>
> It isn't (wrong); it practiced in more or less the same way. The only
> differences
> arise in the level that an individual pratices - some more, some less.
>
> I know you weren't really for answers, and your intentions were just to
> flame,
> but hey you never know...
abc
Mujahid wrote in message
<0EECF0F221FFE727.C95F0265...@lp.airnews.net>...
>Here is a dose of reality, when Aryans (not Arians), Brahmans, took over,
>slathered and subjugated the local population, they never scored big on the
>world arena. They even beat china, who is the perhaps only country ever
body
>ran over, from Mongols to recently Japan. India is worst Mongols, Mamluks,
>Moghals, Portuguese and British, they all ruled over India, she only ruled
>it self and most of the time ruled buy others. You don't find India's
>historical legacy any where in the world except in India, fact is that,
even
>during Muslim's down fall they manage to snatch part of India and still are
>trying to get some more, if India keep persecuting it's minorities, there
>would be more nabbing, 200 million Muslims are waiting, not to mention
Assam
>and other who are tired of it, and do not forget Khalistan. That is why you
>do not find, Alexander the Great, Cyrus the Great, Mahmood Ghaznavi and
>Muhammad bin Qasim in Indian history, I guess it all depends on ideology,
>great ideologies produce powerful men. Even the unorganized Mongol hordes
>scored better then India.
>
>
>Peace,
>Mujahid.
>
>
>
>
>--
>"Glory be to He who created me, what delight
> In what others regard as utmost pain
> Time is surprised at how I carry her tribulations,
> And at my body's patience with her shattering events."
> An Afghan Mujahid
>
>
>
Chirag Patnaik
whatever. The day the candies were taken away, you too would scream and
shout, I want my candy, that I've been getting for so many years.
Similarly, the US had been providing candies to Afghanistan for very many
years and then they took it away, so they started screaming bloody murder.
Muslims were always in the other camp as far as the Western hemisphere was
concerned, primarily because of America's and consequently most western
countries' support to Israel. So as I said before, when you took away the
candies this region became active as far as America was concerned. America
forgets that this region was always active as far as the USSR and India and
even China are concerned.
Movies are a reflection of society, so if you'll remember Rambo in
Afghanistan, what a hero, fighting for the cause of a besieged people, and
now this latest Hollywood movie, things have come a long way indeed.
Every nation and person, who has an iota of patriotism does this, the USSR
was portrayed as the very same Satan for America and Western Europe and vice
versa. India and Indians do it for Pakistan and China and vice versa.
There was a period in history when there were more automatic weapons in
Afghanistan than in Pakistan and India combined, and when you lose those
kind of candies, you are going to be mad
I'm not suggesting that all the people in Afghanistan are bad or they do not
deserve are help or attention, my only crib is if you want the world to help
you, you need to be slightly more considerate to the people who are going to
help you.
--
Chirag Patnaik
cpat...@email.com
http://india.4mg.com/, The very best of Indian Links
http://ebooks.4mg.com/, EBooks, read your favourite classics online in an
easy to read format (Still under Construction)
http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/, A little self Glorification (Boasting about
Myself is my Birthright)
http://blog.chiragpatnaik.com/, Read the Ramblings and Rants of a maniac,
namely me
__________________________________________________________
Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
Mirza Ghalib
Islam flourish here under the shade and strength of a tolerant,
permissive Judeo-Christian order and the enforcement
of the laws of the land. The economic and military
strength that America has did not seek any contriburtion
from the new faiths that entered in the sixties. Islam has
made its inroads largely among the underprivileged and
in some cases, dropouts of this econo-social order.
Even then, the converts have no choice but to sacrifice
some of their tenets, because it will annoy or offend the
established order. That is why we do not find loudspeakers
on every mosque, or polygamy (although an exception is
allowed for Mormons!), or time off work for a fiday Namaz.
FemFaCal wrote:
> islam seems to be working very well in america where religious tolerance is the
> r
Mo
indigo
--
"Nitin" <nba...@taurus.oac.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.05.100050...@taurus.oac.uci.edu...
> If Iraq is suffering, she should end her biological and chemical weapons
> programs. We cannot in good conscience allow capital into Iraq that will
> ultimately be used for such programs. Nitin Batra.
One embargo on Iraq is the chemical element chlorine because it can be used
to make explosives. As a result they cannot chlorinate drinking water. I
fail to see the logic of that particular item.
As to your comment about the other programs, Iraq is hardly alone in
pursuing weapons development. The US spends more that the rest of the
planet combined. Is this not at least equal to what Iraq is supposed to be
guilty of?
dyas'*kr
"indigo" <indi...@intergate.bc.ca> wrote:
> One embargo on Iraq is the chemical element chlorine because it can
>be used to make explosives. As a result they cannot chlorinate
>drinking water. I fail to see the logic of that particular item.
> As to your comment about the other programs, Iraq is hardly alone in
> pursuing weapons development. The US spends more that the rest of the
> planet combined. Is this not at least equal to what Iraq is supposed
>to be guilty of?
>
I have percieved Saddam Hussain as a check to fundamentalistic tendency
of Islam, perhaps that was the reason he was helped by the West against
Iran, though the game was more to sell weapons for oil. Saddam became
too ambitious; had he waited some more he would have fostered
democratic forces in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. But all is history.
--
dyas'*kr
http://www.eurosys.net/gujarati
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
FemFaCal
shelley
FemFaCal
the separation. i do wonder why it is not good enough for pakistani's
to take pakistan and leave kashmir alone though. why aren't they happy
with the whole country they acquired instead of fighting over one more
piece of turf (which until i started coming to news groups i thought
always was part of india, kashmir i mean). can someone explain to me
why kashmir is so important to muslims that they send soldiers to fight
and die over it? and the second question: why pakistan alone is not
enough for them?
shelley (in the learning process)
FemFaCal
india has, for the most part, even through all the invasions, remained indian in
culture. other races and religions that go there assimilate into the indian
culture and up springs an islam with an indian twist, a christianity with an
indian twist, etc. why does india need to be "nabbed" by 200 million muslims.
it seems to me that if nobody is exerting their will on anybody then muslims and
hindus and everyone else could live in peace together. it is only when you
force your will or discredit another's beliefs that trouble starts. does india
not have a right to be itself? she's already given up significant territories
for the pacification of muslims and other factions. i don't see why anyone would
want to tear down the entire fabric of the country which has, in the past had
her glory days (none greater than independence 50 years ago through peace) and
is destined to see even greater glory days in the near future.
nobody can deny that india has her problems.. but then what country in the world
who allows religions of the whole world to live in it doesn't (except maybe the
US and even we are getting shit thrown at us from the outside)? we have a crude
american saying here that goes like this: fighting for peace is like fucking
for virginity. it just ain't gonna happen. fighting begets fighting and only
peace begets peace.
love.
shelley
Mujahid wrote:
FemFaCal
see the wisdom in your words i do have a few concerns. if america has any
concerns about islam it is that it tends to be a belief that is happy until it
becomes a majority in a region. once there is a majority as in kashmir and
kosovo, they want independence. while it is fine to want to live the way one
wishes, i don't think it's fine to infiltrate other countries and then try to
take bits of it a little at a time. surely there are enough islamic countries
to hold muslims who are discontented with living in say ex-soviet countries or
india. why do they chose to stay and fight for land that belongs to the country
they are host to? (i know this sounds inflammatory but how else to put it? it
is the truth as i know it.) so for americans to help in the kashmir situation,
for example, would be saying it's ok and once muslims become a majority in
america it will also be ok to divide our borders. it's not ok though.. we like
it just the way it is.
another issue you brought up is not being visible in america. this is true, i'm
afraid, for a lot of groups. and another unfortunate truth is that the only way
to get notice is to do something to get noticed for. like the gay communities
are doing now. making movies, tv commercials, walks on washington, etc... you
can't turn on the tv anymore or open a magazine without seeing something that
has to do with the plight of the gays in this country. another thing that has
brought them to the light is the fact that so much violence has been perpetrated
against them. i, personally, feel the same about gays as i do every other group
on earth.. as long as they don't do anything to hurt the rest of us (i know you
and many may argue that their presence alone is damaging but i don't' believe
that at all) they are fine. if god or allah think they're bad they will pay in
the end. but it's not up to me to judge or sentence them. i love everyone.
so i might suggest rallying muslims in america to write letters like you just
wrote to me and send them to your respective congress people. it is the first
step in being acknowledged. as we say.. the squeaky wheel gets the grease. i
will gladly send your concerns on to my representatives if you will permit it.(i
would need your name though, as your views are not mine so i wouldn't' send it
as my concerns, but i respect your views)
i would also like to hear opposing views which are not inflammatory but which
hold valid points.
shelley
1Man4All wrote:
> <femf...@jps.net> wrote:
> >islam seems to be working very well in america where religious
> tolerance is the
> >rule. is that good enough? i never hear of muslims against
> muslims or muslims
> >against anyone here or anyone against the muslims. so it must
> be successful.
> >maybe everything is not as all muslims wish it could be but we
> all feel that
> >way.. everything is never how everyone wants it to be. but it's
> pretty good
> >nonetheless. i wish all muslims could visit here and see what
> it is like for
> >them in america. i think they would see us differently if they
> did. at least i
> >hope that would be the case.
> >shelley
> >
>
FemFaCal
Mirza Ghalib wrote:
> I do not agree with even that. All faiths, including
> Islam flourish here under the shade and strength of a tolerant,
> permissive Judeo-Christian order and the enforcement
> of the laws of the land. The economic and military
> strength that America has did not seek any contriburtion
> from the new faiths that entered in the sixties.
huh? all religious institutions are tax free here.
> Islam has
> made its inroads largely among the underprivileged and
> in some cases, dropouts of this econo-social order.
> Even then, the converts have no choice but to sacrifice
> some of their tenets, because it will annoy or offend the
> established order.
it is true that you must abide by the laws of america but these are not all governed
by christian beliefs.. they are also governed by the feelings of the vast majority of
americans(which may or may not be christians).
> That is why we do not find loudspeakers
> on every mosque, or polygamy (although an exception is
> allowed for Mormons!), or time off work for a fiday Namaz.
>
wrong.. polygamy is not allowed for mormons either. loud speakers would annoy
everyone who is not muslim but there is no law against getting a radio station and
broadcasting prayers any time you like. muslims could listen to them faithfully any
time they wanted to. and as for time off of work for fiday namaz, have you asked
your boss?
do you have any complaints that would actually hinder being a muslim in america?
these, in my limited view, seem petty complaints for the great opportunities offered
to you and all muslims here. correct me if i'm wrong.
shelley
FemFaCal
that they would accept sanctions before handing him over to the UN?
it's not like america said.. ok we're just going to punish afghanistan.
no, they asked for someone who they believe caused death to americans
and were refused. if the leaders of afghanistan just turn him over all
of the suffering due to sanctions will end. why do they refuse? is
this one man so important to afghanistan that his presence is more
important than medicine and food to the needy? just hand him over and
everything will be back to normal in one day.
you know i had my doubts about his being the leader of the terrorists
acts before he went to afghanistan. but seeing how important he is to
that country makes me wonder if i was wrong. do you care about him? do
all Afghanistan's? would the hungry and sick turn him over for the
things they need most? who's made the mistake here? if you are my
neighbor and i give you food and medicine (or have the means to stop it
from you) and then someone kills a family member of mine and you give
him shelter, should i continue to give you my support even if everyone
in your house disagrees with you that housing this murderer is the right
thing to do? we give asylum to afghanistani's in america. that is
showing concern for those who are suffering. i'm afraid on this issue i
am tending towards the policy. it would be simple to get the sanctions
dropped. sorry if you disagree but that is my opinion.
shelley
FemFaCal
FemFaCal
stop me if i chose to do it. my mind, my body, my soul. i will decide
what happens to the body and mind as i have control over them (for the
most part).
shelley
dyas'*kr
> loud speakers would annoy everyone who is not muslim
Though a big nuisance loudspeakers like everybody else are allowed to
Muslims in what Fundamentalist Muslims on NGs call Hindu Country India.
Mujahid
Copyright: http://www.iviews.com
Published Wednesday March 29, 2000
By Muhammad Faheem
Politics Of Cow Protection
The attack on some trucks carrying animals allegedly for slaughter in which two persons sustained injuries, and fatal attack on a scooter-riding man carrying fodder for animals one day before Eid-ul-Adha in Ahmedabad, Gujarat, let the gory tale of hapless Muslims in the city who lived on the razor’s edge while celebrating the festival of sacrifice.
Behind all these incidents, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Bajrang Dal have emerged the mastermind. Three cases are in point. Earlier, they stopped a truck loaded with sheep and goats meant for sacrifice for Eid-ul-Adha on the pretext that cows and calves were being carried for slaughter. They beat up its driver Anwarbhai Nabibhai Soniwala and his helper Nasirkhan Ibrahimkhan Pathan with pipes and other sharp weapons. Both sustained injuries, but were out of danger.
The police registered cases against Shaileshbhai Ganapatibhai Patel, Sharatbhai Mangalbhai Vyas, Phoolabhai Shankerbhai Vyas and Babubhai Ratilal Patel, all said to be Bajrang Dal activists. The police are still on the look-out for some vehicles reportedly used in the attack.
In another incident, the police booked one Bajrang Dal activist and six VHP men for attacks on two other trucks, again believed to be carrying animals. "Some of them are criminals," said G. Division Assistant Commissioner of Police R.J. Savani. One person, identified as Ismail Noori, was injured in the incident. According to Mr. Savani, the accused are Babubhai Rajabhai Patel alias Babu Katchi alias Babu Bajrangi, a self-styled Bajrang Dal chief, and VHP activists P.J. Rajput, Vinod Ratibhai Patel, Anilbhai Patel, Kalpesh Valand and two others belonging to the Sangh Parivar.
In the third incident, Mohammed Yasin Mohammed Kasambhai (35) and his friend Naeem Akhtar Ghulam Rasool (20) were carrying fodder on a scooter when a mob of about 20 men attacked them with pipes, axes and swords near Prem Darwaza on the intervening night of March 16 and 17. Mohammed Yasin who received five wounds was later declared dead at the civil hospital while the pillion rider Naeem escaped with a fracture to one hand. Yasin was survived by a wife and two daughters. The police registered a case of murder and rioting on the basis of Naeem’s complaint.
Now the VHP and the BJP government of Gujarat are at logger-heads over the booking of VHP and Bajrang Dal activists. The VHP leaders alleged that the government was ineffective in preventing the "illegal flow of animals" into the city and was wrongly implicating its members. On the other hand, Minister of State for Home Haren Pandya maintained that no one would be allowed to take the law into one’s hand. In all these cases, Bajrang Dal and VHP activists failed to seize even a single cow or its progeny. The attacks were made on the innocent on mere suspicion that they were heading for cow slaughter. Their motive was to whip up tension on the days before Eid-ul-Adha and cause a communal flare-up at other places by spreading rumours that cows were slaughtered by Muslims. Only a few months ago, a communal had riot erupted over cow-slaughter in Pholadi town of Jodhpur district in Rajasthan.
Â
A Slow Death
Thanks to the saffron dispensation, Gujarat is the first state where cow protection campaigns were launched and a ban on cow slaughter is in effect. But cows are forced to die a slow, tortuous death by starvation. Sixty cows die in this way daily under the supervision of an organisation, Rashtriya Kamdhenu Kalyan Parishad financed by state government. The organisation runs 20 cow-pens and receives a daily grant of Rs. 1.5 lakh to take care of them.
Fifty to 60 cows die of diseases and want of nutrition on an average every day. A number of Hindu farmers send their weak and unproductive cows to these cow-pens after the latter are too old to become useful for any purpose. Before the ban on cow slaughter was imposed, they used to sell them to slaughter-houses. Many farmers do not sell cows directly to butchers, but to the middlemen, who ultimately sell them to the butchers. Still, they feel that they are protectors of cows. It is an irony that they prefer slow and subtle process resulting in the death of old cows to slaughter. But the question arises whether slow and painful death by disease and starvation is the better for the poor animals.
Cows in these pens get dry grass and water only. According to a spokesman of the organisation, some 5,000 cows are ill and in need of a mixture of jaggery and cattle-feed with protein and sesame oil if they are to survive. "The situation was much worse a month ago when daily 100 to 200 cows were dying in our centres due to the crunch of resources. We had no grass or cattle-feed," said Dr. M.S. Agarwal, general secretary of the organisation.Ban on cow slaughter is like prohibition in the state. Even in Uttar Pradesh ruled by the BJP, cow slaughter is an excuse to harass minorities. Poor Muslims are thrown into lock-ups merely on the pretext that they had slaughtered a cow, ate her meat and buried the bones. No evidence was ever required. If the State Governments are serious enough, they should nip the problem in the bud by dealing with the sellers of cows sternly.
Â
Delhi’s Cow-pens
Delhi is no different. The erstwhile Khurana Government in the state had constituted seven cow-pens to give shelter to the cows, lame, old, weak and discarded by their owners. For the purpose, a total of 302 acres of land was sanctioned, where more than 3,555 cows are finding shelter. These cow-pens are spending more than Rs. 21.2 million per annum. According to a report published in the RSS mouthpiece Panchjanya, the conditions of cows is pathetic and traumatic in all save one or two pens. Most of the pens have neither proper shadow nor fair arrangement for their care. There are too few veterinarians to treat the sick cows. The need of the hour is to know whether or not the owners of these pens are duly spending the funds allocated for cows. It is alleged that the land is being misused for personal gains.
Most of the cow owners do not tie them up, but leave them wander on the roads. Thus, they not only hamper the traffic but also the lives of these poor animals are in jeopardy. These animals trample over plants and flowers in the parks. Delhi Municipal Corporation impound the astray cows and send them to cow-pens. The owners get back the healthy cows; and weak and old cows are left at the mercy of authorities. Resultingly, a great number of cows in pens die, in most cases within a month.
According to a report prepared by a committee set up by the Delhi Government to look into the conditions of cows in the pens, since 1995 a total of 35,735 cows have been given shelter. Of them, a total of 29,932 cows have died, i.e., 70 per cent cases of death. A total of 11,194 cows died in the pens run by the mother of Maneka Gandhi, a Union Minister. Ms. Maneka Gandhi, who is known for her love for animals and birds all over the country.
Â
Irony Of Ironies
The irony of ironies is that it is the members of the majority community who revere cows and sell them to the slaughterhouses or leave them to die in cow-pens. If the cows are in fact dear to them, they should bear all the expenses till the eleventh hour of the animals. The VHP and Bajrang Dal activists never attack the sellers of the cows, but target the buyers. It transpires that there is a conspiracy behind the attacks. First of all, Hindus sell cows to Muslims and inform the champions of cow protection of the transaction so that they may impound the animals, thus both making money and re-possessing animals. Poor Muslims! They remain at the receiving end.
When India got Independence in 1947, the Dire,ctive Principles of the Constitution recommended to the government "to take steps for preserving and improving the breeds and prohibiting the slaughter of cows and calves and other milch and draught cattle". But the economic needs of the country have always hampered the attempts to impose country-wide ban on cow slaughter, favouring the disposal of the useless, unproductive and unserviceable cattle stock. India cannot afford to rear and nourish such a large number of cattle progeny. Under the spell of cow veneration, the members of the community hardly pay attention to feeding and breeding these dumb animals. They adopt double standards. Dairy professionals allegedly kill the calf just after birth, skin it and place it before the mother cow to induce her in order to get more milk. The poor animal licks her dead calf lovingly and satisfies her owners. Besides, they administer vaccines to the cows so as to get milk without delay. By this process, a milch cow goes dry. Still, they claim that they do not slaughter cows.
Â
Hypocritic Politics
India is the only secular country where cow is revered with religious fanaticism. A lot of cow protection committees were set up and enormous money was spent lavishly in the name of cow protection. The Sangh Parivar and its off-shoots have taken up this task. The VHP president, Mr. Ashok Singhal, has gone to the extent of asking to "Quit India, O Cow Slaughterers". A Hindi daily Navbharat Times editorially quoted on February 25, 1998 a BJP leader as saying in the Meghalaya Assembly, "... most of people eat beef here.".
Even in the past, Hindus used to eat beef. Hindu scriptures bear testimony in this regard. Several Hindu scholars such as Tilak, Bhagwan Das, Jayendra Vidhyalkar, Kanhaiya Lal, Munshi..... etc. have admitted to have eaten beef.According to Manavgrah Sutra, "Gau sadhen madhupkrain pujayate," i.e., worship is conducted with the madhupark made of cow. On another occasion, this scripture says, "Namaso madhupark itikshati," i.e., madhupark can never be devoid of meat.
When the Hindutva organisations — Hindu Mahasabha, Sanatan Dharma Sabha, Arya Samaj, Sadhu Samaj, Jan Sangh, etc. — joined hands together under the banner of An All Party Cow Protection Campaign, they called for a general strike on November 7, 1966. Over two lakh people gathered outside the Parliament and staged a violent agitation wherein even saints, who were champions of a life of austerity and renunciation, participated in anti-national activities. At that time, Babu Jagjivan Ram had disclosed that in the past Hindus used to eat beef.
Â
Economic Implications
Scientists and economists have never approved a total ban on cow slaughter, because such a step will impact disastrously the Indian economy. A blanket ban on cow slaughter will lead to critical food situation for human beings, and hit rather hard the hides, bonemeal and meat industries. Hardly is fodder output in the country sufficient to feed half the number of cattle, more cultivation of land for fodder output will invite dire consequences. If the human population has to survive, we will have to reduce the competition between man and animal for food. If the country-wide ban is put into effect, India will have to face another problem more severe than her population problem. Our saffron brethren must not turn a blind eye to economic implications.
--
Do you think I declared peace,
dyas'*kr
fact that how many Muslims live in Hindu dominated India and how many
in Islamic state Pakistan. Subversive activities by foreign forces
first by helping Khalistanis and then by sending in Kashmir the rogue
elements used in Afghanistan conflict was done at the time when BJP was
nowhere in picture.
Religious fundamentalism cannot be expected to be different either of
Islam or of Hinduism. It will flourish at the expense of rationality
and even economic well being of ordidary citizens.
If Muslim sincerely worry about Muslims of India they should try to set
an example in not wasting their children's time in forcing them to
learn things that are not relevant to get equipped more for science and
technology and if they can do something more offer fellowships to
bright Indian Muslim students.
FemFaCal
american i find it rather absurd to make so much fuss over cows. (on the
other hand i'm a staunch humanitarian for the kind treatment of
animals) but i'm not indian and i don't have their sacred belief in
cows (if i did i'd find a way to feed them rather than watching them
starve to death, but maybe there's also a reason they don't do that. i
just don't know.). if you go to a country you must abide by their
laws. if you are muslim and go to a country where eating cows is
illegal then you must give up that habit. i will probably move to
kerala someday and i doubt i will be eating beef once i'm there. but
that's ok.. there is plenty more to eat there. as for slaughters for
the eid, it is my information that goats and lambs are just as
acceptable (and a lot cheaper too) so why choose to kill something that
you know hurts the feelings of your neighbors? i don't mean to be
argumentative but can you see the logic in what i say? there is no law
against killing any other animal that i know of.. and it is not only
muslims who are punished for killing cows, indians are too.
as far as discrimination in the work place.. i don't know any indian
muslims who live in india so i don't know any thing about that. but
second hand information from my husband (who has not one biased bone in
his body) has told me they are just like everyone else in the state he
is from, kerala. they hold good jobs and have the respect of the
communities they live in. as far as naming food and cities. is that
really an important issue to muslims? unless there is some underlying
meaning to it all. what do you think about it?
peace.
shelley
FemFaCal
like pakistaniizing pakistan or afghanistanizing afghanistan or
americanizing america. it just seems to be natural.
shelley
Mo
Kashmir is only a few hundred square miles out of 50,000 sq
miles . These Muslim under their charismatic leader Farooq
Abudllah want to stay with India but Pakistan which already
has 30,000 sq miles of Kashmir wants all of it..
afghanyat
do us all a favor
and this is to every 1
right on top
and get rid of most the msgs
afghanyat
and the other leaders of the northern alliance are examples of what is to be
a good musliman
"Shamseddin Mohammad" <Sh...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8ehcrv$b...@c4.hrz.uni-giessen.de...
> You have noticed correctly. The islamic countries, especially Fanatics
like
> the Taliban are hypocrites and far away from the true (positive and
> tolerant) Islam
> "FemFaCal" <femf...@jps.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:390C2518...@jps.net...
>
>
afghanyat
are u crazy
"FemFaCal" <femf...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:390CE0B7...@jps.net...
> > > > with and do with as they please as long as they are not causing
physical
> > > > damage to others... but that is my skewed belief from being born in
a
> > free
> > > > land. so anyone out there who can help me to see more clearly
without
> > > > attacking me (and if you want to attack go ahead, but it won't make
> > things any
> > > > better if you do)please.. i welcome your comments.
> > > > shelley
> > >
afghanyat
hmmm
are u of the hindu faith
yet you attack some islamic practices
*** is geting suspicious
that fem is not what she acts out to benews:390DA206...@jps.net...
> sounds like it still goes on but at least it's illegal now.. it's an old
country
> with a lot of old customs.. it will take time to wake them to the 21st
century.
> i feel terribly sorry for the widows if it is true they're called whores
> (although who would buy an old woman is what i wanna know). india has a
long
> way to go still but i believe she will make it and eventually come out
smelling
> like a rose. as i am a fan of all countries and people, i sure hope so.
> shelley
>
> > >thx mo.. didn't' know that. but knew it was an almost dead
> > (pardon the
> > >play on words) practice.
> > >shelley
> >
> > See This Report from CNN:
> >
> > Bride-burning claims hundreds in India
> > Practice sometimes disguised as suicide or accident
afghanyat
another long thread
to long for me
dyas'*kr
FemFaCal <femf...@jps.net> wrote:
> i will probably move to
> kerala someday and i doubt i will be eating beef once i'm there. as >>far as naming food and cities. is that really an important issue to >>>muslims? unless there is some underlying
> meaning to it all. what do you think about it?
Hindus have been castrating their male cows for centuries to get more
docile bullocks to work with, male buffelows being slow in work were and
are being given away to slaughter, in fact buffelow meat is better since
they are fattened for that purpose. Yes there is afeeling attached to
animal that has worked for you for 20 years or given you milk, when they
get old and if you give away for slaughter it is like butchering your
own parents. Different people have attachments for different animals,
the regions from muslims came to India perhaps no cows, and they being
in power took pleasure in hurting locals by killing cows. As for food
names I doubt anybody bothers, yes certain place names have been changed
like Calcutta>kolakatta, Madras>Chennai, Bombay>Mumbai because from
beginning the locals used the latter ones. There is clamour for changing
some names that Muslim rulers changed in the past but no official
sanction is given to it, you cannot prevent individuals using different
names.
Rajesh Kamath
: Common shelly, what people say here is not exactly what they mean, specially a reaction - My post was a reaction to Mo. There is still some truth in it, but hey, every body is allowed to embellish a little.
: You need to ask 200 million Muslims, what they think about their Hindu countrymen, as far as I know there is job discrimination, Muslims are killed if they slaughter a cow, now a days there is new movement in Indian, that is to Indianize every thing, including the names of food, they have already changed the names of some cities to Hindu names. Now this is all happening in a country, which declares it self secular, I am not the only one worried about it, secular Indians are also worried with current tren
d, ask a secular Indian.
You need to ask how, if India is so bad, it has produced Muslims like longest
serving cricket captain Azharuddin, the 3 top movie star Khans, missile guru
Abdul Kalam, best-known artist M.F. Hussain, best know music-composer Rehman,
the RICHEST INDIAN Azim Premji, two presidents, innumerable ministers, three
Supreme Court CHIEF JUSTICES (not just justices). Note that I have mostly listed
only the very top in each field and only names which should be well known.
Let me be clear about the point of bringing this up. Its not to say things
are just fine with India. India certainly has a long way to go and should
be gracious about criticism whether at home or from outside.
But given this record, Indians like me would have
nothing but contempt when countries like Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan,
Saudi Arabia feel they have any standing to lecture India on the treatment
of its minorities.
Rajesh
Chirag Patnaik
why kashmir is so important to muslims that they send soldiers to fight
and die over it?<
It's a question of hate? you have to hate someone in order to keep your
country together, especially if your country has a lot of troubles. There is
no better way to unite a country except by pointing to an external aggressor
or threat.
--
Chirag Patnaik
cpat...@email.com
http://india.4mg.com/, The very best of Indian Links
http://ebooks.4mg.com/, EBooks, read your favourite classics online in an
easy to read format (Still under Construction)
http://www.chiragpatnaik.com/, A little self Glorification (Boasting about
Myself is my Birthright)
http://blog.chiragpatnaik.com/, Read the Ramblings and Rants of a maniac,
namely me
__________________________________________________________
Crib, Because it is your right to do so.
Chirag Patnaik
>You need to ask 200 million Muslims, what they think about their Hindu
countrymen, as far as I know there is job >discrimination, Muslims are
killed if they slaughter a cow, now a days there is new movement in Indian,
that is to Indianize every >thing, including the names of food, they have
already changed the names of some cities to Hindu names. Now this is all
>happening in a country, which declares it self secular, I am not the only
one worried about it, secular Indians are also >worried with current trend,
ask a secular Indian.<
There are loonies every where an India is no exception. I have several
Muslim friends, I'd like to principally tell you about two of them. One the
daughter of a Divisional Railway Manager who has since moved further up the
ladder, she has since joined the IIT, I don't think I need to elaborate what
IIT is. Another is the son of a Col in the Indian Army, he has been studying
in one of the premiere Engineering colleges in Pune run by the Army.
In fact, while talking to them one does not realise that they are Musilms or
for that matter you cannot tell a Christian from a Hindu either.
The only thing holding back Muslims is the fact that they percieve
themselves to be inferior, and as anybody with common sense will tell you,
your perception of yourself generally has a big ahnd in making what you are.
I'll tell you about another incident. I was at the home of the latter
mentioned friend, when he was on a holiday. The family priest came along to
enquire about health and the like. He (the priest) asked his(My friends)
mother if my friend read the Namaaz, so she replied, of course. so what doe
sthis gentleman ask next? he says does he read it in Urdu or Arabic. Now
that in my opinion is an extremely stupid question and is a symbol of this
inferiority complex. Cause he was implying that the Namaaz read in Arabic
was more effective. My question, is your god illiterate. This merely shows
the mindset of the ordinary Muslim, and these instances are a study in
contrast, one can erach for the sky, while the other is cribbing about the
language of prayer.
I don't have problems with food cooked in their house either. Aunty makes
the most delicious Kababs and Rum cake.
dyas'*kr
"Chirag Patnaik" <cpatnaikS...@email.INVALID.com> wrote:
>He (the priest) asked his(My friends) mother if my friend read the
>next? he says does he read it in Urdu or Arabic.
Perhaps some Muslim friend will elaborate on what are two kinds of
Namaz?
Nitin
dyas'*kr
"Chirag Patnaik" <cpatnaikS...@email.INVALID.com> wrote:
> >can someone explain to me why kashmir is so important to muslims
>>that they send soldiers to fight and die over it?
>
> It's a question of hate? you have to hate someone in order to keep
>your country together, especially if your country has a lot of
>troubles. There is no better way to unite a country except by pointing
>to an external aggressor or threat.
It is more to distract common man from examining and questioning moral
right of the politicians and dictators to lord over him.
OM
Chirag Patnaik wrote:
> >can someone explain to me
> why kashmir is so important to muslims that they send soldiers to fight
> and die over it?<
>
> It's a question of hate? you have to hate someone in order to keep your
> country together, especially if your country has a lot of troubles. There is
> no better way to unite a country except by pointing to an external aggressor
> or threat.
>
OH ! you are so smart ChiragTallay Indhara .
Then tell me why Nagas , Mezos, Bodos, Naxils, Gorkhas
Tamils etc etc are dying fighting hindian occupiers?
Nitin
independence among Kashmiris. Nitin Batra.
FemFaCal
like to hear from some muslims if you please.
thx..
shelley
FemFaCal
peace
shelley
Mirza Ghalib
despite a high-court ban. They see it as an infringement
of Islamic rights. So they are willing to abide by US
laws, but not Indian laws.
FemFaCal wrote:
> Mirza Ghalib wrote:
>
> > I do not agree with even that. All faiths, including
> >