Muhajirs and Pakistan: An Analysis
Yru10
Yesterday, on Eid day, we visited an uncle of my wife who is in the USA
for heart surgery and who is staying with his daughter's family. My uncle
enquired about one of my brother-in-laws -- whom he has never met and
about whom he knows little.
"What is his name?" he asked.
"***** Khan" I replied.
"Is he a Pathan?," my wife's uncle, who is Pathan/Hindko from Abbotabad,
enquired.
"No," I said, "He is from Karachi."
"He must be a Pathan," he said, "There are many pathans in the MQM."
This got me thinking. What is the original ethnic composition of, so
called, Muhajirs, in Pakistan? I would make the following conjecture:
a) Pathans: (Descendants of Nawabs that ruled India, the generals and
invading armies that conquered India, and migrants.)
b) Syeds: (Descendants of Arab invaders and migrants.
c) Indigenous Indian converts
d) Other invaders or migrants such as Persians, Turks, and Central Asians.
The implication of the above, if true, is that the herterogenous Muhajirs
are ethnically closer to indigenous Pakistani ethnicities than with each
other. In other words, the Muhajir Pathan is ethnically closer to a
Pushto speaking pathan than to, let us say, a Gujrati. Or a Zaidi from
Bhopal is ethnically closer to a Zaidi from Rawalpindi or Larkana than to
a Memon from Gujrat.
In a similar vein, if we look at language and culture, the heterogenous
Muhajir community in Pakistan is highly diversified. And once again,
there are closer ties to indigenous Pakistani culture than to other
Muhajir cultures. For example, a Lukhnawi's prowess and mastery of Urdu
is closer to Lahories than to, let us say, Madrasis. The predilection of
certain Madrasi and Hyderabadi families to join the Pakistan Army is
similar to that of Potoharies. Memons are business oriented like the
Chinioties of Punjab, for example, while many UPites traditionally
gravitate toward Government service in a similar fashion to educated,
urban Punjabies.
In my mind the above explains a lot because affinities are caused by
similarities in outlook and personalities and these in turn are largely
shaped, in developing countries, by ethnic background, language, and
culture. And, the recent problems notwithstanding, there are immense
affinities between Muhajirs and the rest of Pakistan.
How did then the concept of Muhajir suddenly germinate in the Eighties and
the MQM form soon after? How did a people who should have been deeply
integrated into the fabric of Pakistan become somewhat isolated?
I think the reason is that ubiquitous one: Economics. Muhajirs, (for
want of a better term,) were doing fine till the early seventies. Owing
to their better education and pre-partition experience in business,
management and administration and due to fair opportunity in the new
country, they quickly became captains of industry, dominant in the Civil
Service, and well represented in the Armed Forces. In the seventies,
Bhutto introduced the quota system to help backward Sindhis in particular
and backward rural populations in general. The quota system reduced
opportunities for the Muhajir in the government and in educational
institutes. Representative parliamentary democracy filled legislatures
with fuedals who supported agricultural and rural interests rather than
the urban, industrial interests of the Muhajir who did not, till then,
have consolidated political power. Next, Gen Zia, pushed the development
of a Northern Pakistani industrial nexus to rival Karachi. Meanwhile
Karachi itself attracted wave after wave of domestic immigrants --
Sindhis, Punjabis, Pathans, and Baluchis -- who jostled for jobs and
business. All of these developments adversely affected the economic
interests of the Muhajir. Finally there was something to bind the
Muhajirs together. The concept of Muhajir was born and became so
entrenched in a short while that no other term now adequately represents
this phenomenon. The safeguarding of economic interests became the raison
d'etre of the MQM. An ethnic shroud was put around an entity born of
economic considerations. Later, when MQM became the Muttahida Qaumi
Movement instead of the Muhajir Qaumi Movement, the truth shone through.
Yusuf
Jamil Rahman
In article XAA2...@ladder01.news.aol.com, yr...@aol.com (Yru10) writes:
>
>Yesterday, on Eid day, we visited an uncle of my wife who is in the USA
>for heart surgery and who is staying with his daughter's family. My uncle
>enquired about one of my brother-in-laws -- whom he has never met and
>about whom he knows little.
>"What is his name?" he asked.
>"***** Khan" I replied.
>"Is he a Pathan?," my wife's uncle, who is Pathan/Hindko from Abbotabad,
>enquired.
>"No," I said, "He is from Karachi."
>"He must be a Pathan," he said, "There are many pathans in the MQM."
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What that person must have meant is that there are many "Khans" in the
MQM, which is quite different from "Pathans", since may in the Muhajir
community take the last name "Khan".
>This got me thinking. What is the original ethnic composition of, so
>called, Muhajirs, in Pakistan? I would make the following conjecture:
>
>a) Pathans: (Descendants of Nawabs that ruled India, the generals and
>invading armies that conquered India, and migrants.)
>b) Syeds: (Descendants of Arab invaders and migrants.
>c) Indigenous Indian converts
>d) Other invaders or migrants such as Persians, Turks, and Central Asians.
>
>The implication of the above, if true, is that the herterogenous Muhajirs
>are ethnically closer to indigenous Pakistani ethnicities than with each
>other. In other words, the Muhajir Pathan is ethnically closer to a
>Pushto speaking pathan than to, let us say, a Gujrati. Or a Zaidi from
>Bhopal is ethnically closer to a Zaidi from Rawalpindi or Larkana than to
>a Memon from Gujrat.
>
What is a Muhajir Pathan? Does he speak Pashto? Does he have family ties
to Pathans in the NWFP? Are his traditions and rituals the same as NWFP
Pathans? These questions need to be answered in the affirmative before you
can equate the two.
Just my opinion.
Hassan Naqvi
Abd my addition:
DAWN Karachi
Frida
April 18, 1997
Altaf Husain disagreed when told that it was all right to claim that MQM
had become a national party, but when arguments are
forwarded in favour of the party, they always tended to focus on the
interests of Mohajirs.
To prove his point he asked two youngsters to join the interview. One
claimed that his name was Ataullah Kurd and that he
was a Balochi and the other said he was from Yousuf Zai tribe, a Pukhtoon
and his name was Shahid. The two claimed that
they were MQM organisers in their respective areas for which they had
suffered imprisonment, torture and harassment.
---------------------------------------
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Sofian Ansari
In article <19970419032...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Yru10 <yr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Yesterday, on Eid day, we visited an uncle of my wife who is in the USA
>for heart surgery and who is staying with his daughter's family. My uncle
>enquired about one of my brother-in-laws -- whom he has never met and
>about whom he knows little.
>"What is his name?" he asked.
>"***** Khan" I replied.
>"Is he a Pathan?," my wife's uncle, who is Pathan/Hindko from Abbotabad,
>enquired.
>"No," I said, "He is from Karachi."
>"He must be a Pathan," he said, "There are many pathans in the MQM."
>
>This got me thinking. What is the original ethnic composition of, so
>called, Muhajirs, in Pakistan? I would make the following conjecture:
>
>a) Pathans: (Descendants of Nawabs that ruled India, the generals and
>invading armies that conquered India, and migrants.)
>b) Syeds: (Descendants of Arab invaders and migrants.
>c) Indigenous Indian converts
>d) Other invaders or migrants such as Persians, Turks, and Central Asians.
>
>The implication of the above, if true, is that the herterogenous Muhajirs
>are ethnically closer to indigenous Pakistani ethnicities than with each
>other. In other words, the Muhajir Pathan is ethnically closer to a
>Pushto speaking pathan than to, let us say, a Gujrati. Or a Zaidi from
>Bhopal is ethnically closer to a Zaidi from Rawalpindi or Larkana than to
>a Memon from Gujrat.
>
I agree with your facts Mr. Yusuf. But the problem is that mos of the
Pakistanis are totally ignorant of this fact. Many people have termed MQM
as an ethnic party which is absolutely a false assumption. MQM has members
from many ethnic community such as Udu speaking (from UP, Hyderabad),
Gujratis, Marwaris and a small number of Punjabis, Balochis and Pakhtoons.
You can call it tragedy or a dillema of Pakistani history that every time
someone raises voice foe his/her rights he termed as traitor, RAW agent,
etc. because the 2% ruling elites of Pakistan do not want the working
class Pakistanis to have their voices heard in the governmental structure
of Pakistan. I am not taking sides here. My point is look at the past.
Bagtis were labeled as traitors so were the supporters of Wali Khan's
party members and G.M. Syed (the man who first raised the slogan "Pakistan
Zindabad in the assembly before partition). Has anyone ever tried to think
that what were the reasons behind the creation of Jeeay Sind Movement.
Another example is the Fall of East Pakistan. Altaf Hussain is labeled as
terrorist and several accusations are made against him. In order to
protect their power, the Arbab-Akhtiars of Pakistan make such propaganda
in order to divert the attention of other Pakistanis. During the Benazir
regime MQM was accused of being a RAW Agent. Let me ask you this if this
allegation is true then why the evidence wasn't made public. Naseerullah
Babar was advised by his supriors to teach the Mohajirs a lesson that they
would never forget. Look what happened, he escaped to New York although
his name was in ECL (exit control list). If Altaf Hussain, Wali Khan, and
others are traitors then biggest traitors of Pakistan are those 90,000 who
surendered to an enemy and those behind the scenes. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
and his companions supported the breakaway of Eastern wing who was
sentenced to death by the Supreme Court of Pakistan but look the govt. was
planning to built his monument worth millions of rupees. I am very
disgusted about all these ridiulous situation of Pakistan. I personally
think that no one can change the situation of Pakistan in terms of economy
and politics. The cancer of corruption and nepotism has reached to an
extent where it is uncurable. It is just hopless to say that Pakistan wil
ever prosper and grow. Someone very truly said that "Pakistan Kaa Mutlab
Kiyaa, Saaree Achaaiyon Say Paak Jagah.
Regards,
A disappointed broken hearted Pakistani.
Jamil Rahman
In article n...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net, Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
>Abd my addition:
>DAWN Karachi
>Frida
>April 18, 1997
>
>Altaf Husain disagreed when told that it was all right to claim that MQM
>had become a national party, but when arguments are
>forwarded in favour of the party, they always tended to focus on the
>interests of Mohajirs.
>
>To prove his point he asked two youngsters to join the interview. One
>claimed that his name was Ataullah Kurd and that he
>was a Balochi and the other said he was from Yousuf Zai tribe, a Pukhtoon
>and his name was Shahid. The two claimed that
>they were MQM organisers in their respective areas for which they had
>suffered imprisonment, torture and harassment.
>---------------------------------------
>--
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
So two non-Muhajirs are active members of the MQM, so what? There may be
more...there are non-Pathan members of Wali Khan's ANP and non-Baluchi
members of Baluchistan National Party (BNP)...what does that prove? Only
that the party is *mainly* a regional/ethnic party (in these cases,
Muhajir, Pathan, and Baluchi respectively) and at the same time has some
members who are from other ethnicities.
That does not make the MQM a national party, no more than it would the
BNP.
BTW, were the two persons mentioned in the article Muhajirs with the last
names of Kurd and Yusafzai, or were they guys from Baluchistan and the
NWFP who happen to be members of the MQM.....quite a significant difference
between the two. One based on cultural ties, the other based on political
loyalty.
Zafaryab Khan
In article <5jg1tl$9...@cnn.exu.ericsson.se>,
Jamil Rahman <ex...@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>In article XAA2...@ladder01.news.aol.com, yr...@aol.com (Yru10) writes:
>
>What is a Muhajir Pathan? Does he speak Pashto? Does he have family ties
>to Pathans in the NWFP? Are his traditions and rituals the same as NWFP
>Pathans? These questions need to be answered in the affirmative before you
>can equate the two.
>
>Just my opinion.
>
What about thousands of south africans who speak english but are of dutch
stock. Or people who speak only afrikaaner but are of English stock. Jews
in America who don't speak a word of Yiddish(and only ceremonial Hebrew
phrases).
Also kids born in the US who speak just enough urdu/pashto to keep their
parents happy...
Unknown
Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>ex...@exu.ericsson.se (Jamil Rahman) wrote:
>>In article XAA2...@ladder01.news.aol.com, yr...@aol.com (Yru10) writes:
>>>
>>>Yesterday, on Eid day, we visited an uncle of my wife who is in the USA
>>>for heart surgery and who is staying with his daughter's family. My uncle
>>>enquired about one of my brother-in-laws -- whom he has never met and
>>>about whom he knows little.
>>>"What is his name?" he asked.
>>>"***** Khan" I replied.
>>>"Is he a Pathan?," my wife's uncle, who is Pathan/Hindko from Abbotabad,
>>>enquired.
>>>"No," I said, "He is from Karachi."
>>>"He must be a Pathan," he said, "There are many pathans in the MQM."
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>What that person must have meant is that there are many "Khans" in the
>>MQM, which is quite different from "Pathans", since may in the Muhajir
>>community take the last name "Khan".
>>
>>>This got me thinking. What is the original ethnic composition of, so
>>>called, Muhajirs, in Pakistan? I would make the following conjecture:
>>>
>>>a) Pathans: (Descendants of Nawabs that ruled India, the generals and
>>>invading armies that conquered India, and migrants.)
>>>b) Syeds: (Descendants of Arab invaders and migrants.
>>>c) Indigenous Indian converts
>>>d) Other invaders or migrants such as Persians, Turks, and Central Asians.
>>>
>>>The implication of the above, if true, is that the herterogenous Muhajirs
>>>are ethnically closer to indigenous Pakistani ethnicities than with each
>>>other. In other words, the Muhajir Pathan is ethnically closer to a
>>>Pushto speaking pathan than to, let us say, a Gujrati. Or a Zaidi from
>>>Bhopal is ethnically closer to a Zaidi from Rawalpindi or Larkana than to
>>>a Memon from Gujrat.
>>>
>>
>>What is a Muhajir Pathan? Does he speak Pashto? Does he have family ties
>>to Pathans in the NWFP? Are his traditions and rituals the same as NWFP
>>Pathans? These questions need to be answered in the affirmative before you
>>can equate the two.
>>
>>Just my opinion.
>>
>
>Abd my addition:
>DAWN Karachi
>Frida
>April 18, 1997
>
>Altaf Husain disagreed when told that it was all right to claim that MQM
>had become a national party, but when arguments are
>forwarded in favour of the party, they always tended to focus on the
>interests of Mohajirs.
>
>To prove his point he asked two youngsters to join the interview. One
>claimed that his name was Ataullah Kurd and that he
>was a Balochi and the other said he was from Yousuf Zai tribe, a Pukhtoon
>and his name was Shahid. The two claimed that
>they were MQM organisers in their respective areas for which they had
>suffered imprisonment, torture and harassment.
>---------------------------------------
>--
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
I think Pathans, Punjabis etc.. were called sons of soil so they cant
be mohajirs. BTW why can't you guys come over it and dump this muhajir
garbage. Your ancestors were muhajirs you are not you were born in
Pak.
Yru10
In reply to Jamil's point:-
The Niazis, the Burkis, or the Tareen's do not speak Pahto but they are
considered Pakhtun. In particular -- Imran Khan Niazi, Gohar Aub and Ayub
Khan -- popular representatives of these clans are considered Pathans but
they do not speak Pashto. There may have been some intermarriages with
Pashto speaking Pathans but not many and no major ones to the best of my
knowledge.
On the other hand, Sardar Farook Ahmed Khan Leghari is married to the
daughter of the Khan of Kalabagh who is a Pathan. That does not make
Leghari a pathan.
Muhajirs who are the descendants of Pathans Nawabs of yore of Indian
states are ethnically pathan. Why should they not be considered pathans?
I know Pashto speaking pathans are proud and possessive of their heritage
and dismissive of claims of non-pashto speaking people of being pathans,
but is this a legitimate stance? There may be some spurious claimants to
pathan ethnicity but then there are spurious claimants to Syed ethnicity
also. This does not mean we make a sweeping generalization.
Yusuf
Mansoor Khan
In article <5jl7ob$1rh$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> zk...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Zafaryab Khan) writes:
>In article <5jjad2$i...@cnn.exu.ericsson.se>,
>Jamil Rahman <ex...@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
>>In article 1...@news.fas.harvard.edu, zk...@login1.fas.harvard.edu (Zafaryab Khan) writes:
>>>In article <5jg1tl$9...@cnn.exu.ericsson.se>,
>>>>In article XAA2...@ladder01.news.aol.com, yr...@aol.com (Yru10) writes:
>>>>
>>>>What is a Muhajir Pathan? Does he speak Pashto? Does he have family ties
>>>>to Pathans in the NWFP? Are his traditions and rituals the same as NWFP
>>>>Pathans? These questions need to be answered in the affirmative before you
>>>>can equate the two.
>>>>
>>>>Just my opinion.
>>>>
>>>
>>>stock. Or people who speak only afrikaaner but are of English stock. Jews
>>>in America who don't speak a word of Yiddish(and only ceremonial Hebrew
>>>phrases).
>>
>>
>>>Also kids born in the US who speak just enough urdu/pashto to keep their
>>>parents happy...
>>>
>>
>>membership card you carry around in your wallet. The extent of your
>>Pathan-ness is dependent on how actively you maintain your links to
>>your homeland and your culture. You can be the purest Pathan but if
>>you don't know the language, the culture, the people, or the land,
>>you are not a Pathan...(again, in my opinion).
>>
>
>I respect you opinion. You seem to be saying that being pathan is a
>cultural
>thing. Most people however think that being pathan is
>"racial"(irrespective
>of links to culture, language etc.).
>Many people in NWFP distinguish themselves from the people in lucknow
>by calling themselves pukhtoons. I admit that its purely a semantical
>difference, but its convenient(since the pathans from lucknow don't
>call themselves "pukhtoons").
>
>>The discussion over who is/not a Pathan, and the discussion over using
>>the "Khan" surname is rather amusing to a Pathan (from NWFP, that is),
>>because most of the time we are used to hearing "akhrot" jokes from
>>people who then turn around and claim Pathan ancestry from Lucknow or
>>some such place! Its like having your cake and wanting to eat it too.
>>On the contrary, I have yet to hear a Pathan claiming Lucknow ancestry!
>
>For obvious reasons. The flow was unidirectional(no lucknavis invaded
>NWFP.
>
I guess it is not just invasion. People from all over India
moved to places like Dehli and Lucknow( and areas around it) for
economic reasons too. There were more jobs in these areas than
at other places. There were more business opportunities.
These places in turn became cultural melting pots. Hyderabad
army had Pathans in it just like they had Arabs from Saudi Arabia
and Yemen. Lot of these Arabs now live in old city of Hyderabad
and a place called Barkus in Hyderabad.
On the other hand I have heard of people from Mardan etc whose
ancestors were the people who came to fight from Braili etc
at Balakot. After the fight was over many from UP may have
settled around Balakot.
Back to Afghanistan/NWFP to UP etc migration. Qadir Khan (actor)
in Bombay is from Qandhar in Afghanistan.
What will be his kids or granchildren? Pathans? or something else?
Actually, while people are looting aataa and chaaval in Peshawar
as well as in Karachi, it isnt worth spending time on who is
a card carrying pathan and who is not.
Lets all work together to bring Budnazir back into power. She can
do better job than corrupt Navaz and his havaaris. she has the
best chance of getting us rid of Pakistan problem.
Mansoor Khan
Cleveland, Ohio
Jamil Rahman
In article WAA0...@ladder01.news.aol.com, yr...@aol.com (Yru10) writes:
>In reply to Jamil's point:-
>
>The Niazis, the Burkis, or the Tareen's do not speak Pahto but they are
>considered Pakhtun. In particular -- Imran Khan Niazi, Gohar Aub and Ayub
>Khan -- popular representatives of these clans are considered Pathans but
>they do not speak Pashto. There may have been some intermarriages with
>Pashto speaking Pathans but not many and no major ones to the best of my
>knowledge.
>
>On the other hand, Sardar Farook Ahmed Khan Leghari is married to the
>daughter of the Khan of Kalabagh who is a Pathan. That does not make
>Leghari a pathan.
>
>Muhajirs who are the descendants of Pathans Nawabs of yore of Indian
>states are ethnically pathan. Why should they not be considered pathans?
>I know Pashto speaking pathans are proud and possessive of their heritage
>and dismissive of claims of non-pashto speaking people of being pathans,
>but is this a legitimate stance? There may be some spurious claimants to
Absolutely, it is exactly the stance thats needed, and the stance I am
taking here. Do Punjabis, Muhajirs, etc. not cling to their heritage and
define what their ethnicity is all about? Why deny the same right to
Pathans? True, Pathan ethnicity seems to be a rather popular one, but
that shouldn't mean that Pathans allow their identity to be diluted by
others who have no ties to their culture.
Zafaryab Khan
Mansoor Khan
In article <5jle69$l...@cnn.exu.ericsson.se> ex...@exu.ericsson.se writes:
>In article 1...@news.fas.harvard.edu, zk...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Zafaryab Khan) writes:
>>
>>I respect you opinion. You seem to be saying that being pathan is a
>>cultural
>>thing. Most people however think that being pathan is
>>"racial"(irrespective
>>of links to culture, language etc.).
>>Many people in NWFP distinguish themselves from the people in lucknow
>>by calling themselves pukhtoons. I admit that its purely a semantical
>>difference, but its convenient(since the pathans from lucknow don't
>>call themselves "pukhtoons").
>>
>
>you'll notice many Pakhtuns have dropped the "Khan" surname after
First of all, not every pakhtun/pathan has the surname Khan.
Second, not all pathans from areas outside NWFP have Khan in their
name. Thirdly, not all people who have last name khan are pathans!
>it had been hijacked over the last 15-20 years, for whatever reason.
>Maybe we'll go back to it after it goes out of style ;-)
During mid 80's while amnesty was being granted by INS, thousands
of fraudias changed their last name , esp in major cities like
NY and Miami. Guess what? Khan was the most common name people
used to get fraud papers and real green card.
>
>>>The discussion over who is/not a Pathan, and the discussion over using
>>>the "Khan" surname is rather amusing to a Pathan (from NWFP, that is),
>>>because most of the time we are used to hearing "akhrot" jokes from
>>>people who then turn around and claim Pathan ancestry from Lucknow or
>>>some such place! Its like having your cake and wanting to eat it too.
>>>On the contrary, I have yet to hear a Pathan claiming Lucknow ancestry!
>>
>>For obvious reasons. The flow was unidirectional(no lucknavis invaded
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>NWFP.
>>^^^^^^
>
>But they did flood the secretariat in Peshawar after 1947 :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Ameer Hassan
On 23 Apr 1997, Jamil Rahman wrote:
> In article 1...@news.fas.harvard.edu, zk...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Zafaryab Khan) writes:
> >
> >I respect you opinion. You seem to be saying that being pathan is a
> >cultural
> >thing. Most people however think that being pathan is
> >"racial"(irrespective
> >of links to culture, language etc.).
> >Many people in NWFP distinguish themselves from the people in lucknow
> >by calling themselves pukhtoons. I admit that its purely a semantical
> >difference, but its convenient(since the pathans from lucknow don't
> >call themselves "pukhtoons").
> >
>
> Thats very true. I myself use "Pakhtun" for that reason. Similarly,
> you'll notice many Pakhtuns have dropped the "Khan" surname after
> it had been hijacked over the last 15-20 years, for whatever reason.
> Maybe we'll go back to it after it goes out of style ;-)
>
> >>The discussion over who is/not a Pathan, and the discussion over using
> >>the "Khan" surname is rather amusing to a Pathan (from NWFP, that is),
> >>because most of the time we are used to hearing "akhrot" jokes from
> >>people who then turn around and claim Pathan ancestry from Lucknow or
> >>some such place! Its like having your cake and wanting to eat it too.
> >>On the contrary, I have yet to hear a Pathan claiming Lucknow ancestry!
> >
> >For obvious reasons. The flow was unidirectional(no lucknavis invaded
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >NWFP.
> >^^^^^^
>
> But they did flood the secretariat in Peshawar after 1947 :-)
>
>
Once I read a research article, which talked about some Muslim
army `Khan' dude. The article provided historical reference to show
that this Khan dude died at an early age, without ever being married.
Then the article provided references that
there are many in UP/Bihar etc region who claim to be from his
lineage. In fact there is a celebration linking this khan/Muslim saint
dudes marriage to some `bibi'.
Interesting behavior can be observed on SCP as well. Where the same
person can claim to be Muhajir, half-Punjabi, and then `qabaelee pathan'.
Or a women claiming to be Punjabi can call names to ALL Punjbais.
Very interesting indeed.Specially when they claim that this was all
`humor'.
Hassan Naqvi
Cuz one could not find enough qualified locals to fill
the secretariat in Peshawar, based on %age of total qualified
people in 1947, including Mohajirs.
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Nusrat Rizvi
In <Pine.OSF.3.96.970424...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
Ameer Hassan <aha...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu> writes:
>> >>On the contrary, I have yet to hear a Pathan claiming Lucknow
ancestry!For obvious reasons. The flow was unidirectional(no lucknavis
invaded
>>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >NWFP.
>> >^^^^^^
>>
>> But they did flood the secretariat in Peshawar after 1947 :-)
>
>Once I read a research article, which talked about some Muslim
>army `Khan' dude. The article provided historical reference to show
>that this Khan dude died at an early age, without ever being married.
>Then the article provided references that
>there are many in UP/Bihar etc region who claim to be from his
>lineage. In fact there is a celebration linking this khan/Muslim saint
>dudes marriage to some `bibi'.
Ameer Hassan
Nothing like this could ever happen to any ladies from your household
as your lineage with the renowned army of Ranjit Sikh is a matter of
historical records. Which saints birthday do you guys celebrate or is
it a guru?
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Hassan Naqvi
Header for above post:
---------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Muhajirs and Pakistan: An Analysis
Date: 24 Apr 1997 18:34:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <5jo94e$g...@sjx-ixn11.ix.netcom.com>
***
San Jose,CA
Ameer Hassan
On 24 Apr 1997, Hassan Naqvi wrote:
> ex...@exu.ericsson.se (Jamil Rahman) wrote:
>
> Cuz one could not find enough qualified locals to fill
> the secretariat in Peshawar, based on %age of total qualified
> people in 1947, including Mohajirs.
> --
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
These super-qualified folks should be sent back so that they can
develop their own lands.
Hassan Naqvi
Would you please keep your true KKK attitude to yourself.
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Farrukh R. Naqvi
Hassan Naqvi wrote:
> Abd my addition:
> DAWN Karachi
> Frida
> April 18, 1997
>
> Altaf Husain disagreed when told that it was all right to claim that MQM
> had become a national party, but when arguments are
> forwarded in favour of the party, they always tended to focus on the
> interests of Mohajirs.
>
> To prove his point he asked two youngsters to join the interview. One
> claimed that his name was Ataullah Kurd and that he
> was a Balochi and the other said he was from Yousuf Zai tribe, a Pukhtoon
> and his name was Shahid. The two claimed that
> they were MQM organisers in their respective areas for which they had
> suffered imprisonment, torture and harassment.
> ---------------------------------------
> --
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
--
How much were they paid by the Great Pir Shahib to say that?
Just curious
Farrukh Naqvi
PS: And not Hassan Haider Naqvi.
Asim Siddiqi
Subject heading should with replaced with
"Pakistanis and Pakistan: An Analysis"
--
mailto:cm...@freenet.carleton.ca
Abdul Jabbar
Mansoor, I have noticed that you are very picky on the topic of
Indian/Pathans etc. Kiya bat hai Mansoor bhai.
-cheers
Jabbar
Mansoor Khan (kh...@ces.cwru.edu) wrote:
: In article <5jl7ob$1rh$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> zk...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Zafaryab Khan) writes:
: >In article <5jjad2$i...@cnn.exu.ericsson.se>,
: >Jamil Rahman <ex...@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
: >>In article 1...@news.fas.harvard.edu, zk...@login1.fas.harvard.edu (Zafaryab Khan) writes:
: >>>In article <5jg1tl$9...@cnn.exu.ericsson.se>,
: >>>Jamil Rahman <ex...@exu.ericsson.se> wrote:
: >>>>In article XAA2...@ladder01.news.aol.com, yr...@aol.com (Yru10) writes:
: >>>>
: >>>>What is a Muhajir Pathan? Does he speak Pashto? Does he have family ties
: >>>>to Pathans in the NWFP? Are his traditions and rituals the same as NWFP
: >>>>Pathans? These questions need to be answered in the affirmative before you
: >>>>can equate the two.
: >>>>
: >>>>Just my opinion.
: >>>>
: >>>
: >>>What about thousands of south africans who speak english but are of dutch
: >>>stock. Or people who speak only afrikaaner but are of English stock. Jews
: >>>in America who don't speak a word of Yiddish(and only ceremonial Hebrew
: >>>phrases).
: >>
: >>None of the above would be Pathans in my book :-)
: >>
: >>>Also kids born in the US who speak just enough urdu/pashto to keep their
: >>>parents happy...
: >>>
: >>
: >>Being a Pathan (or anything else for that matter) is not some kind of
: >>membership card you carry around in your wallet. The extent of your
: >>Pathan-ness is dependent on how actively you maintain your links to
: >>your homeland and your culture. You can be the purest Pathan but if
: >>you don't know the language, the culture, the people, or the land,
: >>you are not a Pathan...(again, in my opinion).
: >>
: >
: >I respect you opinion. You seem to be saying that being pathan is a
: >cultural
: >thing. Most people however think that being pathan is
: >"racial"(irrespective
: >of links to culture, language etc.).
: >Many people in NWFP distinguish themselves from the people in lucknow
: >by calling themselves pukhtoons. I admit that its purely a semantical
: >difference, but its convenient(since the pathans from lucknow don't
: >call themselves "pukhtoons").
: >
: >>The discussion over who is/not a Pathan, and the discussion over using
: >>the "Khan" surname is rather amusing to a Pathan (from NWFP, that is),
: >>because most of the time we are used to hearing "akhrot" jokes from
: >>people who then turn around and claim Pathan ancestry from Lucknow or
: >>some such place! Its like having your cake and wanting to eat it too.
: >>On the contrary, I have yet to hear a Pathan claiming Lucknow ancestry!
: >
: >For obvious reasons. The flow was unidirectional(no lucknavis invaded
: >NWFP.
MoinA
>I respect you opinion. You seem to be saying that being pathan is a
>cultural
>thing. Most people however think that being pathan is
>"racial"(irrespective
>of links to culture, language etc.).
>Many people in NWFP distinguish themselves from the people in lucknow
>by calling themselves pukhtoons. I admit that its purely a semantical
>difference, but its convenient(since the pathans from lucknow don't
>call themselves "pukhtoons").
The subtle semantic differences between the Pakhtoons and Pathans cannot
hold water, because the Aghans do NOT call themselves Pakhtoons (even
thoug linguistically and culturally and racially they may still be
"Pakhtoon" or Pathan).
Once the racial/etnic/lingiuistic group is REMOVED from its origins, the
root folks always try to disown them...because through marriage and
intercourse the group that has migrated away BECOME different and lose
some of their cultural and linguistic underpinnings.
Since Karachi is the biggest Pathan city, after a few decades it may be
difficuilt to hold to YOUR Pakhtoon/Pathan diffrentiation in Karachi,
especially since many of the Pathans---removed from their cultural
baggage/ancestory may or may not cling to their old traiditions/language
*************************************************************************
My home page:ftp://usman.imran.com/pub/articles/moin/)
Faisal's Education Mailing Lists-Taleemi Jamaat www Home Page: http://www.tuns.ca/~fkharadi/taleem/TaleemiJ.html
Help us provide education for Pakistanis. Join the EML
MoinA
>Subject heading should with replaced with
>"Pakistanis and Pakistan: An Analysis"
A Pakistani is a Pakistani. The description of Pakistanis as a hyphenated
Pakistanis is anathema to our nationality.
MoinA
>"What is his name?" he asked.
>"***** Khan" I replied.
>"Is he a Pathan?," my wife's uncle, who is Pathan/Hindko from Abbotabad,
>enquired.
>"No," I said, "He is from Karachi."
>"He must be a Pathan," he said, "There are many pathans in the MQM."
WHY MQM IS NOT AN ETHNIC PARTY?
The people of Karachi and Urban Sindh claim that the MQM is a coalition of
MANY RACES and ethnic groups. It is composed of a coalition of people who
were discriminated against (or think that they were discriminated against)
as minorities.
Case in point the MQM support in Karachi comes from Shias, and Sunnis, and
Urdu Speaking people, and “Kachi” speaking people, and “Poorbi” speaking
people, and Gujrati speaking people, and Biharis who are very different
from Bhoras (Shias) who are very different from Memons (Sunni ) who are
very different from Bengalis, who are very different from Agha Khanis, who
are very different from Hydrabadi immigrants, who are very different from
UPites (who are themselves very different from each other, since the UP
iteself was pupolated by many ethnic, racial and linguistic groups; See
Francis Robinson The Politics of the United Provinces 1860-1923) who are
different from Southern Indian emigrants who are very different from
Rajput Indian Immigrants etc. etc. etc. ALL these groups speak different
languages and eat different foods, and are racially different. They do not
inter-marry amongst each other nor do they socially interact with each
other except for personal friendships.
There are Pathans and Baluchs and Punjabis in the party too.
The Niazis the Burkis or the Tareens do not speak Pushto but are
considered Pakhtun. In particular Imran Khan Niazi, Gohar Ayub and Ayub
Khan popular representatives of these clans are considered Pathans but
they do not speak Pushto. There have been some intermarriages with Pushto
speaking Pathans. Sardar Farouk Ahmad Khan Leghari is married to the Khan
of Kalabagh who is a Pathan.
Muhajirs who are descendents of Pathan Nawabs are ethnically Pathan but
may call themselves Muhajir.
They think that THEY HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON. They all were discriminated
against. They have all banded together to call themselves as Muhajirs.
Therefore we have just proven that MQM is NOT an ethnic party, because it
represents no particular race, or religion or language.
Many Muhajirs claim that the Punjabis or Sindhis SHOULD join the MQM.
There are Punjabis in the MQM who believe that the MQM is a HAQ-PARAST
party. There are VERY VERY few Sindhis who believe that the Muhajirs have
been discriminated against, therefore few join the party
The NEW MQM has now garnished the support of the Saraikis belt, therefore
they HAD to change their name at the request of the Saraikis.
DAWN Karachi
Frida
April 18, 1997
Altaf Husain disagreed when told that it was all right to claim that MQM
had become a national party, but when arguments are
forwarded in favour of the party, they always tended to focus on the
interests of Mohajirs.
To prove his point he asked two youngsters to join the interview. One
claimed that his name was Ataullah Kurd and that he
was a Balochi and the other said he was from Yousuf Zai tribe, a Pukhtoon
and his name was Shahid. The two claimed that
they were MQM organisers in their respective areas for which they had
suffered imprisonment, torture and harassment.
*************************************************************************
MoinA
>On the contrary, I have yet to hear a Pathan claiming Lucknow ancestry!
The jokes abour akhrot are of course PERSONAL and if one behaves like an
AKHROT he should be called one.....OPEN YOUR MIND and you will not be
called an akhrot.
Living in a well, someone may not realize that the Subcontinnet is indeed
very amalgamated, and sometimes a metling pot. There are Pathans in almost
every state/province of South Asia.
Karachi is the biggest Pathan city. Pathans ebing smart people migrated to
the plitical, economic and cultural centers of the Subcontinent. During
the three hundredds of Mughal rule---the epitomy of our South Asian
culture, the Pathans moved to Lucknow and Bengal and Hydrabad,and provided
immense cultural knowledge to the people of that area. Since the NWFP had
been converted into target practice areas for the British army, many
cuttured Pathans migrated to greener pastures, and many maintained thier
cultural and linguistic heritage.....others lost it, but they still
claimed to be Pathans and were respected as such
With Persian and Turkish ancestory, many beautiful Pathan women were
prized brides in many parts of the Subcontinent.
Many Pathans came to Lucknow to take advantage of the religious revial
that was going on during the 18th centrury (see works of Barbara Mercalf).
Other joined the Sufi ranks of the Deobandis and the Farangi Mahallis and
others joined Shah Wali Ullah and others.
The Mughals and the Pathans had very interesting discussions on who a
Pathan is. Tuzk e babri has many interesting discussion on the subject.
Many of the inhabitants of the NWFP are NON Pushto speaking, and many
Hindkoh speakers detest being called a "Pathan".
Please see the following for details on Pathans claiming Lucknow
ancestroy:
Francis Robinson “The Veneration of Teachers in Islam: its Modern
Siginficance’, History Today, XXX, 1980,22-5,
B. Metcalf ed., Moral Conduct and Authority: The Place of Adab n South
Asian Islam (California U.P. Berkley, 1984), 152-83
Sepratism among Indian Muslims: The Politics of the United Provinces'
Muslims 1860-1923 (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1974; Vikas, New
Delhi, 1975; Paramount, Lahore, 1975), pp. 469. Republished with an
introduction to the new edition Oxford University Press, New Delhi, 1993
Islamic Leadership in India: the ulema of Farangi Mahll from the
Seventeenth to the Twentieth Centruy (Cambridge University Press,
forthcoming)
Ulema, Sufis and colonial Rule in North India and Indonesia', in C.A.>
Bayle and D.H. A. Koliff eds., Two Colonial empires (Martinus Nijoff
Publishers: Dordrecht, 1986) pp 9-34
'Perso-Islamic culture in India from the seventeenth to the early
twentieth century', in R.L Canfield ed., Turko-Persia: The Middle East,
Central Asia and India in Historical Perspective (Cambridge UP, 1990), pp.
104-31
'The Muslims of Upper India and the Shock of the Mutiny' in Mushirul Hasan
and N. Gupta eds., Essays in Honour of Professor E.T. Stokes (Oxford
University Press, New Delhi, 1993) Vol I, pp.377-98
Farhan Ahmad Nizami, ‘Madrasahs, Scholars, and Saints: Muslim response to
the British presence in Delhi and the Upper Doab 1803-1857 (unpublished
D. Phil, Oxford, 1983)
Sayyid Sulaiman Nadwi’s article, ‘Hindustan men ‘Ilm-i Hadith in Maqalat
Sulaimani (Azamgarh, n.d), ibid 143
Shah Muhhamad Husain, bil Tanzim-i Nizam al-Ta’allum wal Ta’lim, published
at the wish of the nadwat al-’Ulema (Allahbad, nd.)
Qutub al-din ‘Abd al-wali, nisab Nizami (Lucknow, 1946),5
Qutub al-din ‘Abd al-wali, Halat, being the report of the Madarsa-i Aliya
Nizamiyya read on 28 safar 1349/26 July 1930 (Lucknow, n.d.),22
Mohammad Yousaf Kokan Umari, Behar-ul-Ulum (Madras, n.d)
Mahzarnama in the name of Muhammad Said, Nizam al Din and Muhammad Reza,
dated 35 R.Y of Awrenzeb. I am grateful to Dr. Iqbal Husain for providing
a translation.
Papers on Medeval Indian History submitted to the Indian History
Congress, Aligarh, 1975 by members of the Center of Advanced Study,
Department of History, Aligarh Muslim University
Altaf al-Rahman Qidwai, Qiyam-i Nizam-i Ta’lim (Lucknow, 1924), 86
‘A Very early Farman of Akbar’, cyclostyled paper, Center of Advanced
Study, Aligarh Muslim University,
Maulana ‘Abdu’l-Halim Sharar, Guzashtah Lakhna’u ua Mashriq ke Tamaddun ka
Akhri Namunah (Lucknow n.d.), pp 25-26,93,119-22, the account of a
letterateur at the begining of this century offers a far more positive
appraisal. This book has recently been translated by E.S. Harcourt and
Fakhir Hussain under the title, Lucknow: The last phase of an Oriental
Culture (London, 1975).
Scholarship and Mysticism in early Eighteenth-Century Awadh’ in A.L
Dallapiccola and Stephanie Zingel-Ave Lallemant eds., Islam and Indian
Regions )Franz Steiner, Stuttgart, 1993) Vol I, pp.377-98
The emergence of Lucknow as an all-India political centre, 1899-1923',
Vilette Graff, ed., Lucknow (Oxford University Press, New Delhi,
forthcoming)
S.A.A. Rizvi devoted to the main to ideological developments amongst
‘ulema of the Delhi world in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries
Ziya-ul-Hasan Faruqi, The Deoband School and the Demand for Pakistan
(Bombay, 1963)
I.H. Qureshi, Ulema in Politics (Karachi 1972),
S.A.A. Rizvi , Shah Wali-Ullah and His Times: A study of Eighteenth
Century Islam, Politics and Society in India, (Canberra, 1980)
Shah ‘Abd al-Aziz: Puritanism, Sectarianmics and Jihad (Canberra, 1982)
Islamic Revival in British India: Deoaband, 1860-1900 (Princeton, 1982),
Barbara.Daly. Metcalf,
MoinA
Actually, while people are looting aataa and chaaval in Peshawar
as well as in Karachi, it isnt worth spending time on who is
a card carrying pathan and who is not.
++Well said...the bigitory on this thread and this ng can and MUST be
++challendged through knowledge...and Mansoor as alwyas comes through
Moin
Ameer Hassan
On 29 Apr 1997, Yru10 wrote:
> Mr original posting concerned the close ethnic, linguistic, and cultural
> ties -- besides the common religion -- between people indigenous to
> Pakistan before 1947 and people who migrated to Pakistan soon thereafter.
> I also asserted that the MQM's raison d'etre was economic rather than
> ethnic.
>
> However I do believe that the MQM was an overtly ethnic party at its
> inception. Therefore the moniker *Muhajir* in its original name. I also
> feel that there is little that is noble about the MQM beyond its middle
> class leadership and relatively recent cross ethnic appeal. These
> characteristics are shared by several religious and other parties such as
> the Jamaat e Islami and the Tehrik e Insaaf. I do not like the terrorist
> aspect of MQM. It has been both the perpetrator and the victim of
> terrorism. I also believe that the level of corruption in the MQM is
> comparable to other political parties in Pakistan. However I respect and
> recognize the MQM because I value democracy and the MQM is the most
> popular party in Urban Sindh. I was happy, though, to see the PML(N) make
> inroads into urban Sindh. I believe that the PML(N) currently offers the
> most progressive and nationally unifying leadership in the country.
>
> The above are ofcourse my beliefs which can be debated. I further believe
> that the term *akhroat* is unacceptable under any circumstance. (I came
> across a rather patronizing account in another posting that if Pakhtuns
> had broad minds they would not be called *akhroats.*) This is because
> words like paindoo, akhroat, and mattarway are racial slurs. As good
> Pakistanis we should not use racial slurs against each other under any
> circumstance.
>
> Yusuf
>
>
Have you ever seen a Sindhi use `Akhroot' for a `Pathan'?
Have you ever seen a Punjabi use `Akhroot' for a `Pathan'?
Question: who are the people who started this stuff?
Hint: `hum tum loog say afazal hain, hum cultured hain or tum gunwar ho'.
Abbas Dadabhoy
Ameer Hassan <aha...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu> wrote:
>Have you ever seen a Sindhi use `Akhroot' for a `Pathan'?
>Have you ever seen a Punjabi use `Akhroot' for a `Pathan'?
>Question: who are the people who started this stuff?
>Hint: `hum tum loog say afazal hain, hum cultured hain or tum gunwar ho'.
I totally agree with Ameer. It is this UP/Delhi mentalilty, who still
could not apprehend that Punjabis were (or at least now) more educated
than Mohajirs. Standard of education even back in my times (mid to
late 70s) was far better in U of Punjab than at U of Karachi.
They are more disciplined, respectful and loyal, and mostly humble. .
Mohajirs might speak better Urdu than anyone else thats all.
Being originally from Gujurat/Bombay area, I can appreciate how these
Punjabis/Pathan feels about this rubbish from Mohajirs. I would advise
Mohajirs to go visit Bombay, and see how many dialects that city had
adopted and is still prospering. You dont have to be Mirza Ghalib to
be living in Karachi.
Though I agree mostly w/MQM that injustice been done to the people of
karachi.
Abbas Dadabhoy
abbas_d...@hotmail.com
Ameer Hassan
On 24 Apr 1997, Nusrat Rizvi wrote:
>
> Nothing like this could ever happen to any ladies from your household
> as your lineage with the renowned army of Ranjit Sikh is a matter of
> historical records. Which saints birthday do you guys celebrate or is
> it a guru?
> Nusrat Rizvi
> Rowayton, Conn
We all understand that ladies from your household used to stand, top-less
and in their bikini's on the steps of `Mahals' until Rengeela Shah caught
your great grandmothers scent, as she was in heat. Then that fateful day,
your mother did her last service and from their on she was one of the
delight providers for Rangeela shahs Army. But must you prove it over
and over again.
P.S. Apnee bitya kay naak kay chiday kay kaya daam mangat ho?
madan lal
On Thu, 1 May 1997 16:00:55 GMT, Ameer Hassan <aha...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
wrote:
>
>
>
>On 29 Apr 1997, Yru10 wrote:
>> The above are ofcourse my beliefs which can be debated. I further believe
>> that the term *akhroat* is unacceptable under any circumstance. (I came
>> across a rather patronizing account in another posting that if Pakhtuns
>> had broad minds they would not be called *akhroats.*) This is because
>> words like paindoo, akhroat, and mattarway are racial slurs. As good
>> Pakistanis we should not use racial slurs against each other under any
>> circumstance.
>>
>> Yusuf
>>
>>
>Have you ever seen a Sindhi use `Akhroot' for a `Pathan'?
>Have you ever seen a Punjabi use `Akhroot' for a `Pathan'?
>Question: who are the people who started this stuff?
>Hint: `hum tum loog say afazal hain, hum cultured hain or tum gunwar ho'.
>
yes have you ever see any panjabi being racist on scp ? no
have you see any panjabi swear on scp ? no
mahajir are problem, that is why we must support ammer to fight them.
Shahbaz Raza
Yru10 wrote:
>
> Mr original posting concerned the close ethnic, linguistic, and cultural
> ties -- besides the common religion -- between people indigenous to
> Pakistan before 1947 and people who migrated to Pakistan soon thereafter.
> I also asserted that the MQM's raison d'etre was economic rather than
> ethnic.
>
> However I do believe that the MQM was an overtly ethnic party at its
> inception. Therefore the moniker *Muhajir* in its original name. I also
> feel that there is little that is noble about the MQM beyond its middle
> class leadership and relatively recent cross ethnic appeal. These
> characteristics are shared by several religious and other parties such as
> the Jamaat e Islami and the Tehrik e Insaaf. I do not like the terrorist
> aspect of MQM. It has been both the perpetrator and the victim of
> terrorism. I also believe that the level of corruption in the MQM is
> comparable to other political parties in Pakistan. However I respect and
> recognize the MQM because I value democracy and the MQM is the most
> popular party in Urban Sindh. I was happy, though, to see the PML(N) make
> inroads into urban Sindh. I believe that the PML(N) currently offers the
> most progressive and nationally unifying leadership in the country.
>
> that the term *akhroat* is unacceptable under any circumstance. (I came
> across a rather patronizing account in another posting that if Pakhtuns
> had broad minds they would not be called *akhroats.*) This is because
> words like paindoo, akhroat, and mattarway are racial slurs. As good
> Pakistanis we should not use racial slurs against each other under any
> circumstance.
>
> Yusuf
Dear Yusuf,
I agree with you.It is utmost necessary
that PML(N) make inroads in urban Sindh.They must provide the residents
of Karachi a viable alternative to terrorist leadership of MQM.I believe
that we MUST have zero tolerance for hate mongers and ethnic
demagogues.We cannot let urban Sindh burn in the flames of ethnic hatred
and mutual mistrust.I have noticed that there is a deep resentment for
Punjabis and Pathans in the hearts of Muhajirs.I find such hatred quite
disgusting to say the least.There biggest complain seems to be that
there city has been inundated by an influx of people from other
provinces.I consider that to be a genuine complaint though I do not find
it a good enough excuse to use racial slurs or outright abuse their
fellow Pakistanies.We must understand that there is nothing one can do
about the influx of Punjabies,Pathans,Baluchis and Sindhies in Karachi
and Hyderabad.We simply cannot restrict the movement of people.
Such resentment towards the migrants have a lot to do with
ethnic identity and limited resources.A similar example is migrant
mexican workers in California.There is a backlash against them for some
time now.Almost every major urban area around the world is facing
similar social and economic problems.As I have said before, there are no
easy solutions for such problems.There are no quick fixes.Though the
local and federal Government can try to minimize the hardship of local
populace by implementing economic restructuring plans and ensuring that
precious resources are spent wisely for the benefit of every one.A
corrupt Govt. will only make matters worse.A corrupt Govt. will only
invite more choas,mayhem and social unrest.Thats exactly whats happening
in Karachi,Lahore,Peshawar and other urban centers of Pakistan.It is
utmost necessary that our representatives realize their duties and
responsibilities.It is utmost necessary that they bring a sense of
order,calm and sanity back to the cities.
Shahbaz Raza
KARIMUDDIN AHMER AZHAR
In article <336B5A...@earthlink.net>,
Shahbaz Raza <shaz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> I agree with you.It is utmost necessary
>that PML(N) make inroads in urban Sindh.They must provide the residents
>of Karachi a viable alternative to terrorist leadership of MQM.I believe
>that we MUST have zero tolerance for hate mongers and ethnic
For hate mongers yes. Ethnic demagogues yes. But like it or not, and I
dont, the MQM has come to represent the voice of middle to lower middle
class Karachi, as was evident by their overwhelming majorities on the
seats they contested in urban Karachi and Hyderabad. It was only in the
relatively affluent areas, eg Clifton and Defence, where the PML(N) won
the seats. Due to this, the MQM must be dealt with, like it or not.
>demagogues.We cannot let urban Sindh burn in the flames of ethnic hatred
>and mutual mistrust.I have noticed that there is a deep resentment for
>Punjabis and Pathans in the hearts of Muhajirs.I find such hatred quite
>disgusting to say the least.There biggest complain seems to be that
I agree whole heartedly. This type of hatred is disgusting. Yet you can
hardly blame the residents of Karachi, who were suppressesed from 92-95
by a predominantly Punjabi/Pathan army and police, and neither can you
blame the police or army who were doing their job to bring peace and
order to the city of Karachi.
Ahmer
madan lal
On 5 May 1997 15:20:07 -0400, e0fk...@erin.utoronto.ca (KARIMUDDIN AHMER
AZHAR) wrote:
Panjabi army kick karaaanchee ass as the mahajir deserved it.
Jiye Ammeer hassan
Ahmer Azhar Karimuddin
On Tue, 6 May 1997, Shahbaz Raza wrote:
> > seats they contested in urban Karachi and Hyderabad. It was only in the
> > relatively affluent areas, eg Clifton and Defence, where the PML(N) won
> > the seats. Due to this, the MQM must be dealt with, like it or not.
>
> due to their popularity in Karachi and Hyderabad.Though nobody is above
> the law.Just because a party commands a popular following does not mean
> they have a license to engage in terrorist activities.We must seperate
> the terrorist element of MQM from the honest and dedicated leadership.We
> must only deal with the later and and keep an eye open for the former.
Of course not, I agree with you on this as well. But yet, justice cannot
be carried out blindly, and in so called encounters. let it be in teh
courts, through the correct procedures. What is happening now, through
whole sale expunging of cases against MQM workers is also not correct.
THese cases should be dealt with by the courts, to lay the terrorist
problem to rest.
> > by a predominantly Punjabi/Pathan army and police, and neither can you
> > blame the police or army who were doing their job to bring peace and
> > order to the city of Karachi.
>
> I believe the predominantly Punjabi/Pathan army and police was and
> is one of the reasons behind the resentment.Though you are correct that
> they were just doing their job to bring peace and order to the
> city.Thats why I believe that we cannot rest the blame on any one
> group.Violence only breeds violence.The power politics of Altaf and
> cronies was wrong to begin with.They are as much to blame as police and
> army.Though with the arrival of the new Govt. it is time to heal old
> wounds.It is time for a fresh start.
Agreed.
Ahmer
Ameer Hassan
On 7 May 1997, Hassan Naqvi wrote:
>
> Please, leave the discussion about Karachi to the people who
> have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
> please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's politics/issue.
> --
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
Using the same logic, the hijras should have left the present day Pakistan
for Pakistanis and stayed where they were. Most of them had never heard
of Karachi at that time any way.
Simply pointing to false logic :-)
madan lal
On 7 May 1997 20:25:18 GMT, Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>Shahbaz Raza <shaz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> I believe the predominantly Punjabi/Pathan army and police was and
>>is one of the reasons behind the resentment.Though you are correct that
>>they were just doing their job to bring peace and order to the
>>city.Thats why I believe that we cannot rest the blame on any one
>>group.Violence only breeds violence.The power politics of Altaf and
>>cronies was wrong to begin with.They are as much to blame as police and
>>army.Though with the arrival of the new Govt. it is time to heal old
>>wounds.It is time for a fresh start.
>>
>>Shahbaz Raza
>
>Please, leave the discussion about Karachi to the people who
>have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
>please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's politics/issue.
>--
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
shut up idiot mqm gh**** why you are all kill punjabi honest policeman in
karachi and be happy. as ammeer says we must kill mahajirs in panjab and send
back to karachi in body bag then karachi will know.
Hassan Naqvi
>> have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
>> please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's politics/issue.
>> --
>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
>for Pakistanis and stayed where they were. Most of them had never heard
>of Karachi at that time any way.
>
>Simply pointing to false logic :-)
>
>
What kinda stupidity is that.
Feeling guilty probably !!!!
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Hassan Naqvi
ma...@agniPath.com (madan lal) wrote:
>On 7 May 1997 20:25:18 GMT, Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Shahbaz Raza <shaz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe the predominantly Punjabi/Pathan army and police was and
>>>is one of the reasons behind the resentment.Though you are correct that
>>>they were just doing their job to bring peace and order to the
>>>city.Thats why I believe that we cannot rest the blame on any one
>>>group.Violence only breeds violence.The power politics of Altaf and
>>>cronies was wrong to begin with.They are as much to blame as police and
>>>army.Though with the arrival of the new Govt. it is time to heal old
>>>wounds.It is time for a fresh start.
>>>
>>>Shahbaz Raza
>>
>>have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
>>please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's politics/issue.
>>--
>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>>
>
>karachi and be happy. as ammeer says we must kill mahajirs in panjab and send
>back to karachi in body bag then karachi will know.
No need to show off your birth defects...
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Nusrat Rizvi
>>>Please, leave the discussion about Karachi to the people who
>>>have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
>>>please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's
politics/issue.
>>>--
>>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>>>
>>
>>shut up idiot mqm gh**** why you are all kill punjabi honest
policeman in karachi and be happy. as ammeer says we must kill mahajirs
in panjab and send back to karachi in body bag then karachi will know.
>
>No need to show off your birth defects...
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
You Dumb Khatmal, Are you sure you are in any position to point anyone
else's birth defects given your own for reposting every single of my
article with your usual input.
I understands Moharram your favorite month is around the corner, I
suggest you not go easy with your selfflagellation. Remember according
to Shia bullshit this is the one and only way to paradise. Avail
yourself of it.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
5/8/97 4:40PM
Reason for exact timing is to see how long it take you to repost it.
Nusrat Rizvi
News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought 285,000
metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was because all of
cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by the Pak Govt to
the tune of 50,000 tons.
With a bankrupt treasury no one explained how the Pakis intend to pay
for these enormous purchases.
If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and brainlessness
need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the Paki nuclear
program has been adversley effected.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Nusrat Rizvi
In <5ktrmu$l...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net> Hassan Naqvi
<H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>>>shut up idiot mqm gh**** why you are all kill punjabi honest
>>policeman in karachi and be happy. as ammeer says we must kill
mahajirs in panjab and send back to karachi in body bag then karachi
will know.
>>>
>>>No need to show off your birth defects...
>>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>>
>>You Dumb Khatmal, Are you sure you are in any position to point
anyone else's birth defects given your own for reposting every single
of my article with your usual input.
>>I understands Moharram your favorite month is around the corner, I
>>suggest you not go easy with your selfflagellation. Remember accord
ing to Shia bullshit this is the one and only way to paradise. Avail
>>yourself of it.
>>Nusrat Rizvi
>>5/8/97 4:40PM
>>Reason for exact timing is to see how long it take you to repost it.
>>
>Atleast I'm not a TALIBAN like you, Mr Jamil Rahman !!!
If Taliban believe in killing only Khatmals like you, how bad can they
be? Besides what is a Taliban and who is J. Rahman.
>Are you the long lost brother of madan lal ???
By his persistance madan lal look more khatmal like you than I.
>Header for above post:
>-------------------------------------
>Subject: Re: Muhajirs and Pakistan: An Analysis
>Date: 8 May 1997 20:36:54 GMT
>Organization: Netcom
>Message-ID: <5ktdh6$c...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
> ***
> Dallas-fortWorth,TX
>--
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
How did I know you will not disappoint us, eh dumb khatmal.
For your Moharram greeting, I am hoping you run into some honest
to goodness Yazid who would spare us your childish detective work
by doing to you what he did to the other idiot like you long time ago.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
PERVAIZ RIZVI
madan lal wrote:
>
> On 7 May 1997 20:25:18 GMT, Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Shahbaz Raza <shaz...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I believe the predominantly Punjabi/Pathan army and police was and
> >>is one of the reasons behind the resentment.Though you are correct that
> >>they were just doing their job to bring peace and order to the
> >>city.Thats why I believe that we cannot rest the blame on any one
> >>group.Violence only breeds violence.The power politics of Altaf and
> >>cronies was wrong to begin with.They are as much to blame as police and
> >>army.Though with the arrival of the new Govt. it is time to heal old
> >>wounds.It is time for a fresh start.
> >>
> >>Shahbaz Raza
> >
> >have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
> >please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's politics/issue.
> >--
> > Hassan Haider Naqvi
> >
>
> karachi and be happy. as ammeer says we must kill mahajirs in panjab and send
> back to karachi in body bag then karachi will know.
ABAYA mad lal salaya the only name you could get is a hindu one shame on
you
and you defend a good pakistani and a good muslim Ameer hassan
btw having spend most of my live in karachi i can say that police be it
punjabi urdu speaking sindhi is corrupeted to the core
PERVAIZ RIZVI
Hassan Naqvi
rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>
>>>>Please, leave the discussion about Karachi to the people who
>>>>have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
>>>>please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's
>politics/issue.
>>>>--
>>>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>>>>
>>>
>>>shut up idiot mqm gh**** why you are all kill punjabi honest
>policeman in karachi and be happy. as ammeer says we must kill mahajirs
>in panjab and send back to karachi in body bag then karachi will know.
>>
>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
>You Dumb Khatmal, Are you sure you are in any position to point anyone
>else's birth defects given your own for reposting every single of my
>article with your usual input.
>I understands Moharram your favorite month is around the corner, I
>suggest you not go easy with your selfflagellation. Remember according
>to Shia bullshit this is the one and only way to paradise. Avail
>yourself of it.
>Nusrat Rizvi
>5/8/97 4:40PM
>Reason for exact timing is to see how long it take you to repost it.
>
Atleast I'm not a TALIBAN like you, Mr Jamil Rahman !!!
Are you the long lost brother of madan lal ???
Header for above post:
Jamil Rahman
Here's the sequence:
1. Nusrat Rizvi tells off Hassan Naqvi in the post below.
2. Hassan Naqvi points to "dfw" in Nusrat's address, and assumes its really
Jamil Rahman (me) who is behind the Nusrat Rizvi name.
3. Jamil Rahman posts denial.
4. Substitute any name instead of Nusrat Rizvi and go to step 1.
In article l...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net, Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> writes:
>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>>
>>You Dumb Khatmal, Are you sure you are in any position to point anyone
>>else's birth defects given your own for reposting every single of my
>>article with your usual input.
>
Unknown
rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
Lets take a look at your solution. Less of your type in Pak means less mouths to
feed.
madan lal
On 8 May 1997 19:30:57 GMT, Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>>shut up idiot mqm gh**** why you are all kill punjabi honest policeman in
>>karachi and be happy. as ammeer says we must kill mahajirs in panjab and send
>>back to karachi in body bag then karachi will know.
>
>No need to show off your birth defects...
what a stupid ch*** basturd. you are defect at birth and i pity your mother to
give birth to you (you deserved it). ammeer is right - all you are hijra and
should be killed and send back to india.
madan lal
On Thu, 8 May 1997 15:04:02 GMT, Ameer Hassan <aha...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
wrote:
>
>
>On 7 May 1997, Hassan Naqvi wrote:
>
>>
>> Please, leave the discussion about Karachi to the people who
>> have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
>> please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's politics/issue.
>> --
>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
>Using the same logic, the hijras should have left the present day Pakistan
>for Pakistanis and stayed where they were. Most of them had never heard
>of Karachi at that time any way.
>
>Simply pointing to false logic :-)
>
>
no ammeer no need to apologise. you are speak the truth, just like when you
say mahajir should be send back to karachi in body bag. i like it when you
call all the mahajir hijra, it teach nusrat rundi lesson for being racist.
madan lal
On 8 May 1997 19:29:11 GMT, Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>Ameer Hassan <aha...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>On 7 May 1997, Hassan Naqvi wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Please, leave the discussion about Karachi to the people who
>>> have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
>>> please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's politics/issue.
>>> --
>>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>>
>>Using the same logic, the hijras should have left the present day Pakistan
>>for Pakistanis and stayed where they were. Most of them had never heard
>>of Karachi at that time any way.
>>
>>Simply pointing to false logic :-)
>>
>>
>
>What kinda stupidity is that.
>Feeling guilty probably !!!!
>--
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
>
you are too stupid to undertsand ammeer hassan logic. go and bend down for
king hijra altaf ch***.
gailani
On Fri, 09 May 1997 07:55:49 +0500, PERVAIZ RIZVI <sho...@ibm.net>
wrote:
>
>> shut up idiot mqm gh**** why you are all kill punjabi honest policeman in
>> karachi and be happy. as ammeer says we must kill mahajirs in panjab and send
>> back to karachi in body bag then karachi will know.
>
>
>ABAYA mad lal salaya the only name you could get is a hindu one shame on
******* *******
Hmmmmm,
SO now we know who you are Mr Mo, this kind of Punjabi is your trade
mark.
>you
>and you defend a good pakistani and a good muslim Ameer hassan
btw having spend most of my live in karachi i can say that police be
it
>punjabi urdu speaking sindhi is corrupeted to the core
*******************************************************
I will agree to this point only.
gailani
>PERVAIZ RIZVI
Ameer Hassan
On 8 May 1997, Hassan Naqvi wrote:
> Ameer Hassan <aha...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> >On 7 May 1997, Hassan Naqvi wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Please, leave the discussion about Karachi to the people who
> >> have resided in Karachi, being only a summer vacationer in Karachi,
> >> please spare us with your expert commentry on Karachi's politics/issue.
> >> --
> >> Hassan Haider Naqvi
> >
> >Using the same logic, the hijras should have left the present day Pakistan
> >for Pakistanis and stayed where they were. Most of them had never heard
> >of Karachi at that time any way.
> >
> >Simply pointing to false logic :-)
> >
> >
>
> What kinda stupidity is that.
> Feeling guilty probably !!!!
> --
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
You should be. You are stupid to argue that a person who has not
lived not lived in Karachi has no right to talk about Karachi.
Becuase using your own logic, the people who had never heard
off and never lived in Karachi should have never moved to Karachi.
But of course, you can not see this double standard in your behavior.
P.S. I will have to use `catchup' and ignore all other articles
on this n.g.
Nusrat Rizvi
In <33733bd6.77241677@news> (Zaman) writes:
>
>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>
>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought 285,000
>>metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was because all of
>>cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by the Pak Govt
to the tune of 50,000 tons.
>>With a bankrupt treasury no one explained how the Pakis intend to pay
>>for these enormous purchases.
>>If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and brainlessness
>>need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the Paki nuclear
>>program has been adversley effected.
>>Nusrat Rizvi
>
>Lets take a look at your solution. Less of your type in Pak means less
mouths to feed.
Dear Paindoo Brain, I hate to disillusion you with certain facts of
life which may not be to your liking, for instance did you know that
even today Karachi is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for
Pakiland.
If you let us free we can buy what we need from others, but what do you
paindoos have to sell considering the biggest customers of paindoo
ladies namely Sikhs and Arabs are both in financial straits.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Asim Siddiqi
Nusrat Rizvi (rizv...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
> In <33733bd6.77241677@news> (Zaman) writes:
>>
>>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>>
>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought 285,000
>>>metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was because all of
>>>cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by the Pak Govt
> to the tune of 50,000 tons.
>>>With a bankrupt treasury no one explained how the Pakis intend to pay
>>>for these enormous purchases.
Even the U.S. buys wheat from Canada.
Asim
--
mailto:cm...@freenet.carleton.ca
Zafaryab Khan
In article <5l49uk$k...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
Nusrat Rizvi <rizv...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <33733bd6.77241677@news> (Zaman) writes:
>>
>>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>>
>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought 285,000
>>>metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was because all of
>>>cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by the Pak Govt
>to the tune of 50,000 tons.
>>>With a bankrupt treasury no one explained how the Pakis intend to pay
>>>for these enormous purchases.
>>>need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the Paki nuclear
>>>program has been adversley effected.
>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>
>>
>>Lets take a look at your solution. Less of your type in Pak means less
>mouths to feed.
>
>Dear Paindoo Brain, I hate to disillusion you with certain facts of
>life which may not be to your liking, for instance did you know that
>even today Karachi is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for
>Pakiland.
Read Mr Zaman's statement more carefully. He said "Less of your type" and
*not* less of (erstwhile) Muhajirs. I really don't think you and your
"type"
are a representative sample of the (erstwhile)Muhajirs, much less people
of Karachi.
I sincerely believe that most people there are interested in constructive
activities, progress etc. You, Sir, are more interested in division,
destruction and gloating!
It is not a coincidence that you are so universally disliked on this NG. I
challenge you to find 5 people who support your views...
Nusrat Rizvi
PERVAIZ RIZVI
Iknow more of Karachi and the people of that place respective of their
language they hate any body who is against the country he only
reperesents the hindus and raw
Nusrat Rizvi
In <3377DB...@ibm.net> PERVAIZ RIZVI <sho...@ibm.net> writes:
>
>Nusrat Rizvi wrote:
>> >>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought
>> 285,000 metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was
because all of cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by
the Pak Govt to the tune of 50,000 tons.
>> >>>>With a bankrupt treasury no one explained how the Pakis intend
to pay for these enormous purchases.
>> >>>>If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and
>> brainlessness need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the
>> Paki nuclear program has been adversley effected.
>> >>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>> >>
>> >>>Lets take a look at your solution. Less of your type in Pak means
>> >>>less mouths to feed.
>>
>> >>Dear Paindoo Brain, I hate to disillusion you with certain facts
of life which may not be to your liking, for instance did you know that
>> >>even today Karachi is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for
>> >>Pakiland.
>> >
>>
>Read Mr Zaman's statement more carefully. He said "Less of your type"
>> and *not* less of (erstwhile) Muhajirs. I really don't think you and
>> your"type" are a representative sample of the (erstwhile)Muhajirs,
much less people of Karachi
>
>Iknow more of Karachi and the people of that place respective of their
>language they hate any body who is against the country he only
>reperesents the hindus and raw
I gather from your logic all those who toe Paindoo line are patriots
and those who oppose it are traitors. MQM has been preaching the gospel
of Paindoo hating for years. Almost all the elected leaders of Karachi
are MQM candidates.
It is therefore correct to assume, using your logic, that all elected
officials of Karachi and other Mohajir areas are traitors. For someone
who claims to know Karachi well, how do you explain this?
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Nusrat Rizvi
In <337728ae.334481448@news> (Zaman) writes:
>
>>>>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought
285,000 metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was because
all of cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by the Pak
Govt to the tune of 50,000 tons.With a bankrupt treasury no one
explained how the Pakis intend to pay for these enormous purchases.
>>>>>If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and
brainlessness need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the
Paki nuclear program has been adversley effected.
>>>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>>>>
>>>>Lets take a look at your solution. Less of your type in Pak means
less mouths to feed.
>>>
>>>Dear Paindoo Brain, I hate to disillusion you with certain facts of
>>>life which may not be to your liking, for instance did you know that
>>>even today Karachi is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for
>>>Pakiland.
>>
>>Read Mr Zaman's statement more carefully. He said "Less of your type"
and*not* less of (erstwhile) Muhajirs. I really don't think you and
your "type"are a representative sample of the (erstwhile)Muhajirs, much
less people of Karachi.I sincerely believe that most people there are
interested in constructive activities, progress etc. You, Sir, are more
interested in division,destruction and gloating!
>>It is not a coincidence that you are so universally disliked on this
NG. I challenge you to find 5 people who support your views...
>Bulls eye, you hit the nail,
>Thanks
If one is to take your statement on its face value it would seem
that my statement do not reflect the current thinking of Mohajirs.
There is a historical precedence for such thinking. Remember, all
the while fighting and killing in Bengladesh, the Paindoo propaganda
machine kept insisting the real Bengalis love Paindoos only Indian
agents are fighting the Paindoo troops.
The Paindoo again lives under the same delusion.
And I challenge you to find me 5 Mohajirs who think Paindoos
are humans.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Ameer Hassan
On 14 May 1997, Zafaryab Khan wrote:
> In article <5lc318$9...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >are humans.
> >Nusrat Rizvi
> >Rowayton, Conn
> >
>
> I personally know more than 5 punjabi men who have married (erstwhile)
> muhajir
> girls and more than 5 (erstwhile) muhaj guys who have married punjabi
> girls. Here's your counterexample.
>
> Now, seriously, do you know 5 people in this world who agree with your
> point of view. Does your own family think of you as anything more than
> a paranoid old man?(assuming that you relentlessly bombard them with
> your "point of view").
>
> Please understand that I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am asking
> you
> a fair and honest question.
>
> Thanks
> Zafar
>
Zafar Sahib: Aap Shareef Insan hain. Is pilay NR say door hee rahain.
Iska to kaam hee boonkna hay.
Nusrat Rizvi
In <5lcilp$9qo$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> zk...@login4.fas.harvard.edu
(Zafaryab Khan) writes:
>>>>>>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>>>>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought
>>285,000 metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was because
>>all of cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by the Pak
>>Govt to the tune of 50,000 tons.With a bankrupt treasury no one
>>explained how the Pakis intend to pay for these enormous purchases.
>>>>>>>If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and
>>brainlessness need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the
>>Paki nuclear program has been adversley effected.
>>>>>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Lets take a look at your solution. Less of your type in Pak means
>>less mouths to feed.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dear Paindoo Brain, I hate to disillusion you with certain facts
of life which may not be to your liking, for instance did you know that
>>>>>even today Karachi is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for
>>>>>Pakiland.
>>>>
>>>>Read Mr Zaman's statement more carefully. He said "Less of your
type"and*not* less of (erstwhile) Muhajirs. I really don't think you
and your "type"are a representative sample of the (erstwhile)Muhajirs,
much less people of Karachi.I sincerely believe that most people there
are interested in constructive activities, progress etc. You, Sir, are
more interested in division,destruction and gloating!
>>
>>>>It is not a coincidence that you are so universally disliked on
this G.
I challenge you to find 5 people who support your views...
>>>Bulls eye, you hit the nail,
>>>Thanks
>>
>>If one is to take your statement on its face value it would seem
>>that my statement do not reflect the current thinking of Mohajirs.
>>There is a historical precedence for such thinking. Remember, all
>>the while fighting and killing in Bengladesh, the Paindoo propaganda
>>machine kept insisting the real Bengalis love Paindoos only Indian
>>agents are fighting the Paindoo troops.
>>The Paindoo again lives under the same delusion.
>>And I challenge you to find me 5 Mohajirs who think Paindoos
~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>are humans.
>>Nusrat Rizvi
>>Rowayton, Conn
>>
>
>I personally know more than 5 punjabi men who have married (erstwhile)
>muhajir girls and more than 5 (erstwhile) muhaj guys who have married
punjabi girls. Here's your counterexample.
>
>Now, seriously, do you know 5 people in this world who agree with your
>point of view. Does your own family think of you as anything more than
>a paranoid old man?(assuming that you relentlessly bombard them with
>your "point of view").
>
>Please understand that I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am
asking you a fair and honest question.
>Thanks
>Zafar
Off hands I can think of only about 15 million whose
sons, sisters, fathers and mothers were murdered by
Paindoo thugs.
For you to attempt to portray Pakistan as a normal
society is far too sad for comments. What do you think
of a nation, half of whose army is beaten to pulp and then
locked up by the enemy for raping and pillaging its own
citizens.
A nation where only one province calls the shots and
everybody either obays or gets shot. You have used
Islam for the benefit of Paindooland, this fact
remains uncontested.
During the time of Gulam Mohammad I started to hear
grumbling of Punjabi misrule, the actual phrase used around
Karachi was Punjabgardi. It has only exellarated.
Given the circumstances I am surprised at your nerve
to ask a question weather Punjabis are hated as much as I
claim.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Zafaryab Khan
In article <5ld10m$g...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
I refuse to carry the guilt of Pakistani army in East Pakistan. I never
endorsed it(and condemn it). Blaming punjabis for the misdeeds of
Pakistani
army is unfair because a non army punjabi had nothing to do with it.
In addition, the army had a fair number of Pukhtoons and (erstwhiele)
Muhajers. Hence, you Mr Rizvi share my burden(if we use your concept
of shared guilt).
Nusrat Rizvi
In <Pine.OSF.3.96.97051...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu> Ameer
>> >>>>>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>> >>>>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought
>> >285,000 metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was
because all of cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by
the PakGovt to the tune of 50,000 tons.With a bankrupt treasury no one
>> >explained how the Pakis intend to pay for these enormous purchases.
>> >>>>>>If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and
>> >brainlessness need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the
>> >Paki nuclear program has been adversley effected.
>> >>>>>>Nusrat Rizvi
> >>>>>Lets take a look at your solution. Less of your type in Pak
means less mouths to feed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Dear Paindoo Brain, I hate to disillusion you with certain facts
oflife which may not be to your liking, for instance did you know that
>> >>>>even today Karachi is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for
>Pakiland.
>> >>>
>> >>>Read Mr Zaman's statement more carefully. He said "Less of your
type"and*not* less of (erstwhile) Muhajirs. I really don't think you
and your "type"are a representative sample of the (erstwhile)Muhajirs,
much less people of Karachi.I sincerely believe that most people there
are interested in constructive activities, progress etc. You, Sir, are
more interested in division,destruction and gloating!
>> >
>> >>>It is not a coincidence that you are so universally disliked on
this NG. I challenge you to find 5 people who support your views...
>> >>Bulls eye, you hit the nail,
Thanks
>> >
>> >If one is to take your statement on its face value it would seem
>> >that my statement do not reflect the current thinking of Mohajirs.
>> >There is a historical precedence for such thinking. Remember, all
>> >the while fighting and killing in Bengladesh, the Paindoo
propaganda machine kept insisting the real Bengalis love Paindoos only
Indian agents are fighting the Paindoo troops.
>> >The Paindoo again lives under the same delusion.
>> >And I challenge you to find me 5 Mohajirs who think Paindoos
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >are humans.
>> >Nusrat Rizvi
>>
>> I personally know more than 5 punjabi men who have married
(erstwhile) muhajir girls and more than 5 (erstwhile) muhaj guys who
have married punjabi girls. Here's your counterexample.
>>
>> Now, seriously, do you know 5 people in this world who agree with
your point of view. Does your own family think of you as anything more
than a paranoid old man?(assuming that you relentlessly bombard them
with your "point of view").
>>
>> Please understand that I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am
asking you a fair and honest question.
>> Thanks
>> Zafar
>>
>
>Zafar Sahib: Aap Shareef Insan hain. Is pilay NR say door hee rahain.
>Iska to kaam hee boonkna hay.
>Ameer Hassan
Yes, Zafaryar why not listen to the wise counsel of the self appointed
advocate of Punjabi causes. Who knows some day people will realize and
appreciate his wisdom and stop referring to him as the Ass Hole.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
PERVAIZ RIZVI
Nusrat Rizvi wrote:
>
> In <337728ae.334481448@news> (Zaman) writes:
> >
>
> Nusrat Rizvi
> Rowayton, Conn
Not only human but they are far superior to bhayya of your kind
Ameer Hassan
On Sat, 10 May 1997, madan lal wrote:
>
> no ammeer no need to apologise. you are speak the truth, just like when you
> say mahajir should be send back to karachi in body bag. i like it when you
> call all the mahajir hijra, it teach nusrat rundi lesson for being racist.
>
Mr `Madan Lal' aka Naufal: The statement was made in response to the call
for cleaning Karachi of `others' and with the qualifications that
(a) So far rest of Pakistan has acted very sainly and not retaliated, and
(b) If this call (for cleaning Karachi, Hyderabad) and the nonsense in
Karachi then may be it is time to turn the tables. But just like your
father, NR, you have lies runing in your vains.
Unknown
rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>In <3377DB...@ibm.net> PERVAIZ RIZVI <sho...@ibm.net> writes:
>>
>>Nusrat Rizvi wrote:
>
>>> >>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought
>>> 285,000 metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was
>because all of cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by
>the Pak Govt to the tune of 50,000 tons.
>>> >>>>With a bankrupt treasury no one explained how the Pakis intend
>to pay for these enormous purchases.
>>> >>>>If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and
>>> brainlessness need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the
>>> Paki nuclear program has been adversley effected.
>>> >>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>>> >>
>>> >>>Lets take a look at your solution. Less of your type in Pak means
>>> >>>less mouths to feed.
>>>
>>> >>Dear Paindoo Brain, I hate to disillusion you with certain facts
>of life which may not be to your liking, for instance did you know that
>>> >>even today Karachi is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for
>>> >>Pakiland.
>>> >
>>>
>>Read Mr Zaman's statement more carefully. He said "Less of your type"
>>> and *not* less of (erstwhile) Muhajirs. I really don't think you and
>>> your"type" are a representative sample of the (erstwhile)Muhajirs,
>much less people of Karachi
>>
>>Iknow more of Karachi and the people of that place respective of their
>>language they hate any body who is against the country he only
>>reperesents the hindus and raw
>
>I gather from your logic all those who toe Paindoo line are patriots
>and those who oppose it are traitors. MQM has been preaching the gospel
>of Paindoo hating for years. Almost all the elected leaders of Karachi
>are MQM candidates.
>It is therefore correct to assume, using your logic, that all elected
>officials of Karachi and other Mohajir areas are traitors. For someone
>who claims to know Karachi well, how do you explain this?
>Nusrat Rizvi
>Rowayton, Conn
Not a single word of yours prove that muhajirs hate punjabis.
If worse comes to worse do you think that muhajirs can take on punjabis or
pathans?
Please don't start that old theme paindoo and sikh hawaldar etc.. it has lost
its value.
Asim Siddiqi
Nusrat Rizvi (rizv...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
>>>>>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought
> 285,000 metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was because
> all of cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by the Pak
> Govt to the tune of 50,000 tons.
>>>With a bankrupt treasury no one explained how the Pakis intend to pay
>>>>>>for these enormous purchases.
>>>>>>If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and
> brainlessness need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the
> Paki nuclear program has been adversley effected.
>>>>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>
> It has been a week since this article was posted on the net. I went
> looking in the Paki newspaper to see the reaction of the Paki media
> of this revelation. Guess what, not one peep.
> It is simply that purchasing grain in such large number can
> only confirm what we have known for a long time, namely Paindoo
> Incompetence. It is understandable why the Paindoos would not want to
> advertise such glaring example of their failure when India on the other
> hand has food in abundance.
Well, Pakistan has motroways while India doesn't. Isn't that
fact an expample of failure of India in developing its infra-
structure?
> I am not sure the Paki media's silence stems from censorship or
> downright cowardice, any suuggestions?
> Nusrat Rizvi
> Rowayton, Conn
--
mailto:cm...@freenet.carleton.ca
Hassan Naqvi
rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>In <5ld4ha$dtm$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu> zk...@login4.fas.harvard.edu
>(Zafaryab Khan) writes:
>
>>>>>If one is to take your statement on its face value it would seem
>>>>>that my statement do not reflect the current thinking of Mohajirs.
>>>>>There is a historical precedence for such thinking. Remember, all
>>>>>the while fighting and killing in Bengladesh, the Paindoo
>propaganda
>>>>>machine kept insisting the real Bengalis love Paindoos only Indian
>>>>>agents are fighting the Paindoo troops.
>>>>>The Paindoo again lives under the same delusion.
>>>>>And I challenge you to find me 5 Mohajirs who think Paindoos
>>>>>are humans.
>>>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>
>have married punjabi girls. Here's your counterexample.
>
>>>>Now, seriously, do you know 5 people in this world who agree with
>your point of view. Does your own family think of you as anything more
>than
>
>>>>a paranoid old man?(assuming that you relentlessly bombard them with
>>>>your "point of view").
>>>>Please understand that I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am
>>>asking you a fair and honest question.
>
>If you are going to use English words it would help to know what they
>mean. For example Paranoia is a mental condition where the patient
>feels that others are out to get him. There is nothing a Piandoo can
>or ever could do to me. I am not saying I am perfect, but when compared
>with your run of the mill garden variety paindoo, I am not in the same
>league.
>
>>>Off hands I can think of only about 15 million whose
>>>sons, sisters, fathers and mothers were murdered by
>>>Paindoo thugs.
>>>For you to attempt to portray Pakistan as a normal
>>>society is far too sad for comments. What do you think
>>>of a nation, half of whose army is beaten to pulp and then
>>>locked up by the enemy for raping and pillaging its own
>>>citizens.
>>>A nation where only one province calls the shots and
>>>everybody either obays or gets shot. You have used
>>>Islam for the benefit of Paindooland, this fact
>>>remains uncontested.
>>>During the time of Gulam Mohammad I started to hear
>>>grumbling of Punjabi misrule, the actual phrase used around
>>>Karachi was Punjabgardi. It has only exellarated.
>>>Given the circumstances I am surprised at your nerve
>>>to ask a question weather Punjabis are hated as much as I
>>>claim.
>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>
>
>never endorsed it(and condemn it). Blaming punjabis for the misdeeds of
>>Pakistani army is unfair because a non army punjabi had nothing to do
>(erstwhiele)Muhajers. Hence, you Mr Rizvi share my burden(if we use
>your concept of shared guilt).
>
>one I know would ever buy the shared guilt business you are now trying
>to pin on others. It takes a certain personality or type individual who
>can go and shoot at innocent men women and children. We the mohajirs
>are far too civilized for such deeds. You Paindoos are old hands in
>this line of work as we are now finding out in Karachi.
>Because there were handful of junior Mohajir officers does not in my
>eye qualify this as a Paindoo-Mohajir operation.
>Nusrat Rizvi
>Rowayton, Conn
header for above post:
----------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pakiland Buys Wheat in the West, Big Time.
Date: 16 May 1997 02:08:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <5lgfi0$a...@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
***
Dallas-FortWorth,TX
Ameer Hassan
On 15 May 1997, Khamthi pura ka mashoor pimp boola:
> >
> >Zafar Sahib: Aap Shareef Insan hain. Is pilay NR say door hee rahain.
> >Iska to kaam hee boonkna hay.
> >Ameer Hassan
>
> Yes, Zafaryar why not listen to the wise counsel of the self appointed
> advocate of Punjabi causes. Who knows some day people will realize and
> appreciate his wisdom and stop referring to him as the Ass Hole.
> Nusrat Rizvi
> Rowayton, Conn
>
Well, your response shows your true heritage.
P.S. Apnaee bitya kay nak kay chiday kay kaya daam laywat ho?
Nusrat Rizvi
madan lal
On Thu, 15 May 1997 16:18:59 GMT, Ameer Hassan <aha...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
wrote:
>
>
ammeer i am agree with you. only karachi bhiyyaland have killing and problem
not like our panjab so peaceful, we never do any bad to hindu and christian,
no shiyya or sunni fight either. only bhiyaa deserve kill and send back to
india.
Nusrat Rizvi
In <Pine.OSF.3.96.970516...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
Ameer Hassan <aha...@beta.tricity.wsu.edu> writes:
> On 15 May 1997, Khamthi pura ka mashoor pimp boola:
>
>> >
>> >Zafar Sahib: Aap Shareef Insan hain. Is pilay NR say door hee
rahain.Iska to kaam hee boonkna hay.
>> >Ameer Hassan
>>
>> Yes, Zafaryar why not listen to the wise counsel of the self
appointed advocate of Punjabi causes. Who knows some day people will
realize and appreciate his wisdom and stop referring to him as the Ass
Hole.
>> Nusrat Rizvi
>
>Well, your response shows your true heritage.
>P.S. Apnaee bitya kay nak kay chiday kay kaya daam laywat ho?
Ameer Hassan
Making money out of selling your kids for sexual favour is an old
Paindoo custom. Generally it was the poor indentured Muslim farmer
who offered his daughters to the Sikh Overlords, that’s how you Ameer
came into being, and that is house your Pa bought the farm.
To think that this custom carries on into the new world goes to show
your ignorance with the world around you.
As regards my daughters, one is already married and the other has a
steady boyfriend, therefore anyone of them asking you for any sexual
favours is out of the question. I am sure most on scp know you are
not capable of performing manly duty and the only reason for making
overtly sexual statements is to hide your inadequacies.
Nusrat rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Zafaryab Khan
In article <337b7545.4591922@news>, Zaman <> wrote:
>rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>
>>In <3377DB...@ibm.net> PERVAIZ RIZVI <sho...@ibm.net> writes:
>>>
>>
>>>> >>>>News in NY Times of today 5/8/97 states, Pakiland just bought
>>>> 285,000 metric tons of wheat. Reason for Ameican purchase was
>>because all of cheaper Australian wheat has already been purchased by
>>the Pak Govt to the tune of 50,000 tons.
>>>> >>>>With a bankrupt treasury no one explained how the Pakis intend
>>to pay for these enormous purchases.
>>>> >>>>If anyone needed any proof of Paindoo incompetence and
>>>> brainlessness need look no further. I wonder if the funding for the
>>>> Paki nuclear program has been adversley effected.
>>>> >>>>Nusrat Rizvi
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>less mouths to feed.
>>>>
>>>> >>Dear Paindoo Brain, I hate to disillusion you with certain facts
>>of life which may not be to your liking, for instance did you know that
>>>> >>even today Karachi is the biggest earner of foreign exchange for
>>>> >>Pakiland.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>Read Mr Zaman's statement more carefully. He said "Less of your type"
>>>> and *not* less of (erstwhile) Muhajirs. I really don't think you and
>>>> your"type" are a representative sample of the (erstwhile)Muhajirs,
>>much less people of Karachi
>>>
>>>Iknow more of Karachi and the people of that place respective of their
>>>language they hate any body who is against the country he only
>>>reperesents the hindus and raw
>>
>>I gather from your logic all those who toe Paindoo line are patriots
>>and those who oppose it are traitors. MQM has been preaching the gospel
>>of Paindoo hating for years. Almost all the elected leaders of Karachi
>>are MQM candidates.
>>It is therefore correct to assume, using your logic, that all elected
>>officials of Karachi and other Mohajir areas are traitors. For someone
>>who claims to know Karachi well, how do you explain this?
>>Nusrat Rizvi
>>Rowayton, Conn
>
>Not a single word of yours prove that muhajirs hate punjabis.
That's only because this is *not* true! (its all in the minds of a few).
>If worse comes to worse do you think that muhajirs can take on punjabis or
>pathans?
There is no point inidle hypothesis
>Please don't start that old theme paindoo and sikh hawaldar etc.. it has lost
>its value.
I am sorry, but I think it *never* had a value!
madan lal
basturd rizvi pimp of kamathi pura is showing how he sell his daughter.
Knoblach
____________________________________________________________
>>Dear Yusuf,
>> I agree with you.It is utmost necessary
>>that PML(N) make inroads in urban Sindh.They must provide the residents
>>of Karachi a viable alternative to terrorist leadership of MQM.I believe
>>that we MUST have zero tolerance for hate mongers and ethnic
>>demagogues.We cannot let urban Sindh burn in the flames of ethnic hatred
>>and mutual mistrust.I have noticed that there is a deep resentment for
>>Punjabis and Pathans in the hearts of Muhajirs.I find such hatred quite
>>disgusting to say the least.There biggest complain seems to be that
>>there city has been inundated by an influx of people from other
>>provinces.I consider that to be a genuine complaint though I do not find
>>it a good enough excuse to use racial slurs or outright abuse their
>>fellow Pakistanies.We must understand that there is nothing one can do
>>about the influx of Punjabies,Pathans,Baluchis and Sindhies in Karachi
>>and Hyderabad.We simply cannot restrict the movement of people.
>> Such resentment towards the migrants have a lot to do with
>>ethnic identity and limited resources.A similar example is migrant
>>mexican workers in California.There is a backlash against them for some
>>time now.Almost every major urban area around the world is facing
>>similar social and economic problems.As I have said before, there are no
>>easy solutions for such problems.There are no quick fixes.Though the
>>local and federal Government can try to minimize the hardship of local
>>populace by implementing economic restructuring plans and ensuring that
>>precious resources are spent wisely for the benefit of every one.A
>>corrupt Govt. will only make matters worse.A corrupt Govt. will only
>>invite more choas,mayhem and social unrest.Thats exactly whats happening
>>in Karachi,Lahore,Peshawar and other urban centers of Pakistan.It is
>>utmost necessary that our representatives realize their duties and
>>responsibilities.It is utmost necessary that they bring a sense of
>>order,calm and sanity back to the cities.
>> Shahbaz Raza
____________________________________________________________
You are quick to jump on the bandwagon against the MQM. However,
answer me this: how do you feel if you are a Pakistani, born in Karachi,
or
somewhere else in Sindh, as a grandson of someone who migrated fifty years
ago from India. However, you are treated as the second class citizen.
That is
to say, you receive marks of 90-95% during all your school years, yet
your spot in the engineering or medical college is given to a resident
from
Punjab whose cumulative average is 65%? Think about this. Besides this,
what do you think when you are ready to join the workforce at any Karachi
company, for any amount of moeny. However, they won't even give you the
time of day because the Managing Director is a Punjabi, placed at the
PRIVATE
company thru GOVT influence. He wants no one but Punjabi, no matter
how much you exceed in merit. This makes you think "Why am I being screwed
when I have never even been to India in my life, and by definition I am
not
a Mohajir, mu grandfather was, but I'm not" When you think about this,
you decide that its better for you to fight for your rights so that if you
didn't
get a fair chance, maybe you little brother will. So this is your
motivation to
join or support the MQM.
M. Ali Raza
(knob...@aol.com)
P.S. - Everyone is more than willing to stop using the word Mohajir to
describe
themselves, but first the govt must end labling me a Mohajir and severly
restricting my future because of quotas and other crap like that.
Hassan Naqvi
Here is an EXPERT commentry about KHI/MQM/Mohajirs from a
respected SCPian who's views on above issues are based on his
summer vacation in Karachi !
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Hassan Naqvi
One of the fake rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) wrote:
>
>Mr. Raza are still living under some delusion that from now on
>the Paindoo will grow a new leaf and start to treat others as
>equall.
>How many more will have to die before you will call this unnatural
>union of Pakiland by its correct name, a Govt of the Paindoos by the
>Paindoos for the Paindoos.
>Nusrat Rizvi
>Rowayton, Conn
>
>
Header for above post:
--------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Muhajirs and Pakistan: An Analysis
Date: 22 May 1997 14:21:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Message-ID: <5m1kpq$a...@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com>
***
San Jose,CA
Ameer Hassan
On Tue, 20 May 1997, madan lal wrote:
> >
> >Making money out of selling your kids for sexual favour is an old
> >Paindoo custom. Generally it was the poor indentured Muslim farmer
> >who offered his daughters to the Sikh Overlords, that=92s how you Ameer
> >came into being, and that is house your Pa bought the farm.
> >To think that this custom carries on into the new world goes to show
> >your ignorance with the world around you.
> >As regards my daughters, one is already married and the other has a
> >steady boyfriend, therefore anyone of them asking you for any sexual
> >favours is out of the question. I am sure most on scp know you are
> >not capable of performing manly duty and the only reason for making
> >overtly sexual statements is to hide your inadequacies.
>=20
The interesting part is that the sentence/statement had nothing to do
with Punjabi. In fact it is `perfect and classical Urdu'. Hence the
practice is perfectly from that area as well. Now, NR having problem with
it is completely understandable. By the way, I guarantee complete
satisfaction, otherwise I promise to do NR over and over until he
is completely satisfied.
Asim Siddiqi
Nusrat Rizvi (rizv...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
> Wall St. Journal 5/21
> "Paki foreign minister is seeking legal remedies to collect monies
> paid for F-16 planes back in 1984."
> The original amount as I recall was $860million. After 13 years of
> compounded interest of average 6.9% this should be around $2.072 give
> or take a few millions.
Asking for interest is not allowed
--
mailto:cm...@freenet.carleton.ca
PHAJJA
Mohajirs, a second class citizens , you must be dreaming. Mohajirs were
and are the most educated people of Pakistan( As per Hassan Haider Naqvi-
Altaf Hussain's personal chumchaa), Mohajirs were the first rulers of
Pakistan( Go find in Bureucratic archives of Pakistan) and BTW then they
never adopted the name of Mohajirs, this is invented by Altaf Hussain for
his personal reasons to become a leader.
All your concern is high paying jobs specially in the government and that
is all. But now my friend , the other illiterates are also educate and has
claimed their right to be in the halls of secretariates so tough luck.
Problem of Pakistan is it was created in the name Islam but major Hijrat
was not for Islam but for economics ( truth hurts ) and as soon asthe
other entities started showing up in the secretariate buildings, you
became mohajirs. Mohajirs has also a part and parcel of bringing Pakistan
to this stage. They set the standards for corruption in the byreucracy
wich is now spread like a jungle fire and now is destroying whole
Pakistan. It is very easy to wear a three piece suit at the expense of tax
payers and fly to Washington, London and paris to get loans and then burn
it.We should learn to live like a nation with equality and justice for
all. Pie is disappearing fast. And one more peace of advise" don't long
for government jobs". You cannot survive there unless you want to live on
haraam kee kamaiee.
Talk to you later,
salaam,
Phajja
Hassan Naqvi
pha...@aol.com (PHAJJA) wrote:
>
>Mohajirs, a second class citizens , you must be dreaming. Mohajirs were
>and are the most educated people of Pakistan( As per Hassan Haider Naqvi-
>Altaf Hussain's personal chumchaa), Mohajirs were the first rulers of
>Pakistan( Go find in Bureucratic archives of Pakistan) and BTW then they
>never adopted the name of Mohajirs, this is invented by Altaf Hussain for
>his personal reasons to become a leader.
>
>Phajja
"Altaf invented the name MOHAJIR for his personal reasons to
become a leader" !!!!!!!
Excuse me....
So tell me Baoo Phajja, what kinda PERSONAL GAINS he got so far ?
-- Execution of his family
-- Killing of his friends
-- Life in exile
-- No "Kursi" in govt
-- No "LOANS/KICBACKS" on the expense of tax-payers
-- No PAJARO or No KOTHI
Can you deny any of the six points from above list ??
Living in fools world, may be ?
Maazrat kay saath.
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
MoinA
> Wall St. Journal 5/21
> "Paki foreign minister is seeking legal remedies to collect monies
> paid for F-16 planes back in 1984."
> The original amount as I recall was $860million. After 13 years of
> compounded interest of average 6.9% this should be around $2.072 give
> or take a few millions.
>>Asking for interest is not allowed
--
>>mailto:cm...@freenet.carleton.c
So lets use the Pakistani euphemism and call it PROFIT
BTW..Benazir did use the slogan "GIVE US OUR MONEY OR OUR PLANES
BACK"..when she was here...on Larry King Live, to the prez and in
Congress....
*************************************************************************
My home page:ftp://usman.imran.com/pub/articles/moin/)
Faisal's Education Mailing Lists-Taleemi Jamaat www Home Page: http://www.tuns.ca/~fkharadi/taleem/TaleemiJ.html
Help us provide education for Pakistanis. Join the EML
Nusrat Rizvi
In <5m51ie$2...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> cm...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Asim Siddiqi) writes:
>
>Nusrat Rizvi (rizv...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
>> Wall St. Journal 5/21
>> "Paki foreign minister is seeking legal remedies to collect monies
>> paid for F-16 planes back in 1984."
>> The original amount as I recall was $860million. After 13 years of
>> compounded interest of average 6.9% this should be around $2.072 >>
give or take a few millions.
>
>Asking for interest is not allowed
Every other day whenever Pakistan signs a loan agreement with foreign
lending agencies, the interest rate is very clearly spelled out and
must be adhered to. Pakistan has always paid hefty interests on all
the funds she has ever borrowed.
You are now suggesting that Pakistan should walk away without
collecting the over billion dollars she is entitled to.
Are you only Islamic or are you also an enemy agent as well.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Nusrat Rizvi
In <19970525054...@ladder01.news.aol.com> mo...@aol.com
(MoinA) writes:
>
>> Wall St. Journal 5/21
>> "Paki foreign minister is seeking legal remedies to collect monies
>> paid for F-16 planes back in 1984."
>> The original amount as I recall was $860million. After 13 years of
>> compounded interest of average 6.9% this should be around $2.072 >>
give or take a few millions.
>
>>>Asking for interest is not allowed
>>>mailto:cm...@freenet.carleton.c
>
>So lets use the Pakistani euphemism and call it PROFIT
>
>BTW..Benazir did use the slogan "GIVE US OUR MONEY OR OUR PLANES
>BACK"..when she was here...on Larry King Live, to the prez and in
>Congress....
>**********************************************************************
**
Benazirs efforts, if it can be so discribed were more for the Paki
populace than a real and concentrated effort to get the money back.
Of course Benazir had the option to humuliate the US by suing her in
the International Court of Justice all along, yet did nothing but drop
a few hints, here and there.
Had Benazir opted for the Internation Court, this act of affrontry
to Uncle Sam would have put her own vast resources in the West in
jeopardy. She may be a muslim and a patriotic Pakistani but her true
love is for her money which she would protect at all cost.
I for one do not think she is all alone in thinking along such lines,
I am sure the Military Hijras and other politicians of Pakiland are
in the same boat and would have acted no differently.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
Asim Siddiqi
Nusrat Rizvi (rizv...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
> In <5m51ie$2...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> cm...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
> (Asim Siddiqi) writes:
>>
>>
>>Nusrat Rizvi (rizv...@ix.netcom.com) writes:
>>> Wall St. Journal 5/21
>>> "Paki foreign minister is seeking legal remedies to collect monies
>>> paid for F-16 planes back in 1984."
>>> The original amount as I recall was $860million. After 13 years of
>>> compounded interest of average 6.9% this should be around $2.072 >>
> give or take a few millions.
>>
>>Asking for interest is not allowed
>>mailto:cm...@freenet.carleton.ca
>
> Every other day whenever Pakistan signs a loan agreement with foreign
> lending agencies, the interest rate is very clearly spelled out and
> must be adhered to. Pakistan has always paid hefty interests on all
> the funds she has ever borrowed.
> You are now suggesting that Pakistan should walk away without
> collecting the over billion dollars she is entitled to.
Yes. It should only claim the actual price of the planes plus
the additional expenses
> Are you only Islamic or are you also an enemy agent as well.
> Nusrat Rizvi
> Rowayton, Conn
>
--
mailto:cm...@freenet.carleton.ca
MoinA
> M. Ali Raza
>(knob...@aol.com)
>P.S. - Everyone is more than willing to stop using the word Mohajir to
>describe
>themselves, but first the govt must end labling me a Mohajir and severly
>restricting my future because of quotas and other crap like that.
WHY THE WORD MUHAJIR?
In some circles, the word “Muhajir” conjures up resentment. Should the
word be changed? The MQM has changed its name but many people in Karachi
cling to the moniker. Should the word Muhajir NOT be used? There is a
logic for the name. The people of Karachi say that when 5 million East
Punjabis migrated to West Punjab they were never discriminated against.
Nor were the East Sindhis (Bombay constituency) who emigrated to Pakistani
Sind. The Punjabi speaking Kashmiris who moved to Lahore were not
discriminated against either (according to some statistics 40% of Lahore
today is Kashmir) . The other Non-Punjabi, Non-Sindhi immigrants who came
to Pakistan were called “mukkur”, and “hindustora”. Did anyone dare to
call Zia-Ul-Haq a HIN-DUS-TORA, or can anyone dare call Nawaz Sharif a
“teetar” or a “batere” or some other derogatory term. In all honesty can
you yourself not recall calling an Urdu speaker TORA or some other
derogatory term ? Answer this question very honestly.
The “Muhajirs” picked ONE of the derogatory terms as now they wear it as a
badge of honor. For decades the Muhajirs said we are Pakistani and
Pakistani alone. But other Pakistanis said no, you are not Punjabi or
Sindhi, you are TORA or “makkar”. So now the Muhajirs call themselves
Muhajir. MUHAJIR . The word means one who has immigrated. The word was
first used by the prophet when people fled persecution in Madian and went
to Mecca and the Hijri calendar was born.
This is what a Muhajir says to other Pakistanis. “Since you will not call
me a Punjabi or a Sindhi or a Balauch, or a Pathan, let me call myself
whatever I want. I don’t tell you to call yourself Arayin, or Hun or
Rajput, or Potowari, or Saraki, Gujjur, or Pahari. You choose your own
name. I have no problem with that. In a civilized society will you NOW
give me the right to call myself whatever I want” ?
WHY MQM IS NOT AN ETHNIC PARTY?
The people of Karachi and Urban Sindh claim that the MQM is a coalition of
MANY RACES and ethnic groups. It is composed of a coalition of people who
were discriminated against (or think that they were discriminated against)
as minorities.
Case in point the MQM support in Karachi comes from Shias, and Sunnis, and
Urdu Speaking people, and “Kachi” speaking people, and “Poorbi” speaking
people, and Gujrati speaking people, and Biharis who are very different
from Bhoras (Shias) who are very different from Memons (Sunni ) who are
very different from Bengalis, who are very different from Agha Khanis, who
are very different from Hydrabadi immigrants, who are very different from
UPites (who are themselves very different from each other, since the UP
iteself was pupolated by many ethnic, racial and linguistic groups; See
Francis Robinson The Politics of the United Provinces 1860-1923) who are
different from Southern Indian emigrants who are very different from
Rajput Indian Immigrants etc. etc. etc. ALL these groups speak different
languages and eat different foods, and are racially different. They do not
inter-marry amongst each other nor do they socially interact with each
other except for personal friendships.
There are Pathans and Baluchs and Punjabis in the party too.
The Niazis the Burkis or the Tareens do not speak Pushto but are
considered Pakhtun. In particular Imran Khan Niazi, Gohar Ayub and Ayub
Khan popular representatives of these clans are considered Pathans but
they do not speak Pushto. There have been some intermarriages with Pushto
speaking Pathans. Sardar Farouk Ahmad Khan Leghari is married to the Khan
of Kalabagh who is a Pathan.
Muhajirs who are descendents of Pathan Nawabs are ethnically Pathan but
may call themselves Muhajir.
They think that THEY HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON. They all were discriminated
against. They have all banded together to call themselves as Muhajirs.
Therefore we have just proven that MQM is NOT an ethnic party, because it
represents no particular race, or religion or language.
Many Muhajirs claim that the Punjabis or Sindhis SHOULD join the MQM.
There are Punjabis in the MQM who believe that the MQM is a HAQ-PARAST
party. There are VERY VERY few Sindhis who believe that the Muhajirs have
been discriminated against, therefore few join the party
The NEW MQM has now garnished the support of the Saraikis belt, therefore
they HAD to change their name at the request of the Saraikis.
DAWN Karachi, Friday, April 18, 1997
Altaf Husain disagreed when told that it was all right to claim that MQM
had become a national party, but when arguments are forwarded in favour of
the party, they always tended to focus on the interests of Mohajirs.
To prove his point he asked two youngsters to join the interview. One
claimed that his name was Ataullah Kurd and that he was a Balochi and the
other said he was from Yousuf Zai tribe, a Pukhtoon and his name was
Shahid. The two claimed that they were MQM organisers in their respective
areas for which they had suffered imprisonment, torture and harassment.
MQM is a coalition of various racial, ethnic and religious groups who have
teamed together for justice and to END discrimination. Once discrimination
has been ended, there will be no need for an MQM. The MQM is a REACTION to
help the folks of Karachi END the discrimination. Once the situation on
the ground changes Urban Sindh may go back to voting for “other” parties.
An interesting point made by one MQM supporter “there are no Muhajirs in
India even though the same # of immigrants migrated to India. The Five
million East Punjabis who migrated to West Punjab were not called
“makkar”, and “batare”, and “teeter”, and were not discriminated against.
Cultural differences CANNOT and should not explain discrimination. How
serious are the cultural differences ?Have you seen the number of
inter-marriages between Punjabis and Muhajirs?
This is what a Karachiite says:
In the late 70’s at Karachi university there were two dominant political
forces 1. Jamat 2. PSF (Progressive student federation) . From PSF came
PPI , At the same time or a bit later , there was a committee formed
called Pharmacy Action Committee , which later evolved into APMSO. I know
this because I was at Karachi university at that time. and I suppose from
APMSO came MQM , I do not know what transpired after that because I left
Pakistan at that time. I am not debating the issue just setting the record
straight.
MoinA
>Mohajirs, a second class citizens
URBAN SINDH AFFECTED BY THE REAL OR PERCEIVED DISCRIMINATION
If Pakistan is to achieve the coveted status of an Asian Tiger the
discrimination against all segments of society must end. The
discrimination felt by Urban Sindh has to be addressed,whether real or
perceived, has to come to an end. Maulana Bhashani in 1970 electioneered
in the then East Pakistan with the rhetoric that while Bengalis were
starving, the Punjabi streets in West Pakistan were paved with gold. The
sad truth is that too many Bengalis believed it and took up arms against
the “Punjabi” army. Pleading peace through the barrel of a gun does not
resolve issues!
Today the people of Urban Sindh are wealthier and more educated than the
rest of the country. However the residents of Urban Sindh feel that this
is being taken away from them. The people of Urban Sindh feel that they
have created a life style through hard work and this life style is
threatened. The people of Karachi and Urban Sindh believe that they have
been discriminated against, and they are willing to fight against this
(real or perceived) discrimination. Too many Pakistani lives have been
lost on the horns of egos.
The people of Urban Sindh feel that tthey are resisting state sponsored
oppression. More than 20000 lives lost prove that there is popular support
for the resistance against feudalism.
PENURY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DISCRIMINATION
The discrimination decibel cannot be measured by the level of poverty in
any area. The rich or more educated can and are discriminated against.
Each citizen of Pakistan is guaranteed the inalienable rights of life
liberty and pursuit of happiness. The right of freedom of expression is
fundamental to the Pakistani constitution. The right of assembly and the
right to LOCAL BODY elections, and the right to get hired/fired and
educated ON MERIT are basis for any civilized society. If these rights
guaranteed by the Pakistani constitution are taken away a populace
REVOLTS.
The question raised by many Pakistanis is whether all Pakistanis have
faced some sort of discrimination or not? Do the people of Choha Shaidan
Shah who do not have clean drinking water have a case or the women of
Kalat also have a case? It is a question of degree. If the other groups
want to fight the oppression they must unite and go to the ballot. The
problem assumes crisis proportions when ethnicity and race becomes
involved as the factors that have lead to the discrimination.
The agony of the Sindhi urban slum-deweller may be more painful than the
agony of the poor “haree” in the Punjab. There is a qualitative and
quantitiave difference in the agony of the Urban Sindhi vs. the agony of
the rural Pakistan. The possibilites for the rural Punjab are endless.
He/She does not face hudles because of his/her ethnicity. The Urban Sindhi
faces is free and liberated but certain structural impediments have been
artificially erected in his/her educational and employment career path.
These impediments do not exist for any other Pakistan. The people of Urban
Sindh are educated and they have seen better, the frustration level in
Karachi and Urban Sindh is much higher. This frustration has been
aggravated by denying the Urban Sindhis the right to vote even in national
and local body elections.
The Amnesty International reports do give us a vigniette on the situation
in Urban Sindh where the state agencies were allowed to trample on the
constitutional rights of the Muslim Muhajirs of Urban Sindh. The
perception of discrimination in Urban Sindh is more dangerous then the
real discrimination. As Pakistanis we have to come to terms with dissent
and learn to alleviate the problems of Karachi. Telling the people of
Urban Sindh THAT THEY ARE WRONG and should NOT feel discriminated because
the rest of Pakistan is worse off, will not solve the Karachi problem. We
have to request local Karachi solutions, and propose counter Larkana
proposals. We have to continue the Sindhi-Muhajir dialogue, and continue
the Army-MQM percussion, till we resolve this national crisis. The
Democratic institutions in Urban Sindh and Karachi have to be respected.
The leadership of Urban Sindh has to be consulted.
Here is what one Urban-Sindh Muhajir feels:
“1. Division of Sind into rural and urban Sind, constitutionally we don't
have rural and urban Punjab, NWFP or Baluchistan, but we do have rural and
urban Sind. WHY? in my opinion just to discriminate Muhajirs.
2. What does statistics tell about the percentage of the population lives
in urban Sind and how
much quota they have allocated in federal jobs?
My knowledge is population is about 10% and quota is about 2%. WHY?
3. One constituency for NA in urban Sind consist of how many voters as
compared
to other areas of Pakistan?
In urban Sind no of voters in one NA or PA constituency is a lot more than
in
other areas of Pakistan. WHY?
4. What are the statistics for the grants allocated to the universities of
Pakistan by University grants commission, how much grant is allocated to
the
Universities in urban Sind as compared to other Universities?
According to my knowledge the proportion in Karachi University and
Quaid-e-azam
University is one to nineteen.
5. How much grants municipal corporations of urban Sind gets as compared
to
the other areas municipal corporations?
I don't know the figures, but if you compare Lahore or Islamabad with
Karachi
you can see the clear difference.
6. Why student unions have been revived everywhere except urban Sind?”
Here is another Muhajir discussing the discrimination issue:
Mr Jamali's article about facts-n-figure has only proved my point that
admissions in Karachi/Hyderabad Colleges are based on ethnicity ie
for Non-Sindhis and for Sindhis, thats what a "Domocile" is all about.
All of the stats-n-figures are either outdated or bogus, I can easily
prove that it nothing but a misrepresentation of facts.
# Almost all of those figures are more than 15 years old,please see the
source "Source: Census Book 1981"
# Those stats-n-figures are a desperate effort by Sindhis to show
Pakistanis
that Mohajirs are only 5% of Pakistans polpulation and 22% of Sindh's.
please see his article and I'll quote that
" MQM leadership and its suporters are only representative of 22.64%
populatoin of Sindh and 5% population of pakistan...."
Basically its the same effort as of Bhutto's PPP's ghunda govt to
deleberately show the population of Mohajirs as small as possible.
According to most recent figures, Pakistan's population is 131.5
million.
and according to govt, Sindhi's are 12% and Mohajirs are 7%, again these
are govt's figures and keep in mind that there is an effort to show the
Mohajirs's population as small as possible. Please connect to fact book:
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/95fact/pk.html
According to MQM's survay, population of Mohajirs is about 20 million.
Fact/truth is Mohajirs are almost in same number as Sindhis, if not
more.
# Sindhis have always accused Mohajirs of their loyalty to Pakistan,
please
read Mr Jamali's article and I quote from it
"(iii) Without prejudice to the argument that most of them are illegal
immigrants in Pakistan..."
And again here
" ...........................................most of whom come
and go wherever they like from India, most of whom are illegal
immigrants, have the temerity to demand, and then to kill and burn..."
So, instead of asking Mohajirs for Pakistani citizenship, why don't they
ask for the same from other Pakistanis like Punjabi/Pukhtoon etc.
Most Sindhis have a extremely recist attitude towards Mohajirs and for
other ethnicities of Pakistan on the other hand Mohajirs have always
worked with open-heart with Punjabis/Pukhtoons/Sindhis etc in Karachi
since 1947. Since the middle of 1980's, govt agencies have carried out
ethnic-riots in Karachi to disgrace MQM.
# MQM is the third largest Political Party in Pakistan(based on number of
seats they had in senate in the elections of 1988 and 1992, 15 seats)
# These are some of the figures which were given on Pakistan's State run
television during the elections of 1993(about 3 years old):
SIND GOVT's JOBS BY NON-MOHAJIRS AND MOHAJIRS
---------------- ------------ --------
Chief Minister 1 0
Governor 1 0
Commisioner 4 1
Asst. Commisioner 76 7
Deputy Commisioner 19 1
Chief Secretary 1 0
Secretary 14 5
Asst. Secretary 28 3
Mukhtiar Kar 206 0
Asst. Mukhtiar Kar 275 0
DIG Police 4 1
SSP Police 18 7
DSP Police 117 19
SHO Police 450+ 24
AD 52 2
---------------------------------------------
TOTAL 1276 56
---------------------------------------------
Police Force 70,000+ 900+
All of the above jobs has been reduced for Mohajirs since PPP ghunda
govt came into power and not only the jobs have been reduced, their
is a systamatic genocide of educated Mohajir youth is going on since
October of 1993.
Now you are judge.
You can read his pathetic act in desperation to accuse MQM of
discrimination
in
the following article:
http://ww2.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/news?msg@29529@soc%2eculture%2epa
kistan&Haider&Naqvi&Hassan
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Zafaryab Khan
In article <19970525014...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
PHAJJA <pha...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Mohajirs, a second class citizens , you must be dreaming. Mohajirs were
>and are the most educated people of Pakistan( As per Hassan Haider Naqvi-
>Altaf Hussain's personal chumchaa), Mohajirs were the first rulers of
>Pakistan( Go find in Bureucratic archives of Pakistan) and BTW then they
>never adopted the name of Mohajirs, this is invented by Altaf Hussain for
>his personal reasons to become a leader.
>is all. But now my friend , the other illiterates are also educate and has
>claimed their right to be in the halls of secretariates so tough luck.
>Problem of Pakistan is it was created in the name Islam but major Hijrat
>was not for Islam but for economics ( truth hurts ) and as soon asthe
>other entities started showing up in the secretariate buildings, you
>became mohajirs. Mohajirs has also a part and parcel of bringing Pakistan
>to this stage. They set the standards for corruption in the byreucracy
>wich is now spread like a jungle fire and now is destroying whole
>Pakistan. It is very easy to wear a three piece suit at the expense of tax
>payers and fly to Washington, London and paris to get loans and then burn
>it.We should learn to live like a nation with equality and justice for
>all. Pie is disappearing fast. And one more peace of advise" don't long
>for government jobs". You cannot survive there unless you want to live on
>haraam kee kamaiee.
>Talk to you later,
>salaam,
>
>Phajja
That's all essentially true. However, IMHO there is a negative bias
towards
the (erstwhile) Muhajers that is akin to "reverse discrimination" in the
west.
Specifically, the whites in the U.S. complain that the affirmative action
causes blacks with inferior grades to get into law schools etc. Similarly
the (erstwhile) Muhajers claim that the interior sind people /FATA people
have this quota system which is unfair(in jobs, schooling etc).
An argument can be made either way and its tough to take a stance on this
issue
either way.
best regards
Zafar
Unknown
Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>So tell me Baoo Phajja, what kinda PERSONAL GAINS he got so far ?
>
>-- Execution of his family
>-- Killing of his friends
>-- Life in exile
>-- No "Kursi" in govt
>-- No "LOANS/KICBACKS" on the expense of tax-payers
>-- No PAJARO or No KOTHI
>
>Can you deny any of the six points from above list ??
>Living in fools world, may be ?
>
>Maazrat kay saath.
>--
> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>
He got it what he deserved. only if he wasn't a coward rat. He would have got
away with lot of........
PHAJJA
Bhayya Hassan,
Sorry for the delay in my reply but here it is, your first question was
1. Execution of his family:
If I remember correctly it was in response to MQM's killing of Abdullah
Shah's brother. Although Altaf bhayya jee was the first to send a
condolence message but those who has brains knew it is handi work of MQM,
why after Altaf's uncle and nephew's killing , all political big shots
killings stopped??? MQM can only kill poor people and get way with that
but when they went for the big kill you know what happenend.
2: Killing of his friend .... Yes all those Wasim commandos, Chachaas,
tigers etc etc are the one who lost their lives killing other innocent
people on the orders of the one who is living a fabulous life in London.
Why he did not take his friends with him???? What a friend just ran for
his own life and left his friends in the jungle to fight. Well in nutshell
" live by the bullet, die by the bullet" or run to London.
3: Life in exile: You are in voluntry exile too Hassan mian but you have
to work. He is in exile and don't have to work. If given achoice to live
with that standard in London, Pakistan will be empty of young people any
time.
4: No Kursi in Government: Altaaf bhayya jee is Dadaa, he don't want
kursi, he will be under the tubelight so he controls all these others
ulloos with his gangester battalion, enriches himself and don't have to
face nothing. A real dadaa will never seek "kursi" for himself.
5: No loans...No kickbacks: How about Bhatta and KhaalaiN qurbani kee
plus of poor awaam..... does he still wants kick backs.... you must be
kidding Hassan Bhayya jee.
6: No Pajero, no Kothi...... News are his b-in-laws are buying hotel
chains And property in US of A left and right without having a rich back
grounds( neither Industrialist or Vadera). Where is this money coming
from?? .... I guess they are winning all the lotteries in America or is it
Bhatta money......
Now think who is living in a fools worl??? One day you will find out but I
am not counting on that looking at your pathetic mental health. Just may
be afterall we all believe in miracles.
Will talk to you later,
Baoo Phajja
P.S: thanks for the title" Baoo" .
Hassan Naqvi
pha...@aol.com (PHAJJA) wrote:
>
>Bhayya Hassan,
>
>Sorry for the delay in my reply but here it is, your first question was
>
>1. Execution of his family:
>
> If I remember correctly it was in response to MQM's killing of Abdullah
>Shah's brother. Although Altaf bhayya jee was the first to send a
>condolence message but those who has brains knew it is handi work of MQM,
>why after Altaf's uncle and nephew's killing , all political big shots
>killings stopped??? MQM can only kill poor people and get way with that
>but when they went for the big kill you know what happenend.
>
Big kill would have been ghunda Shah himself, why would MQM kill his
long lost brother ? Especially when the ghunda was not in very good
terms with his brother !!!
>2: Killing of his friends .... Yes all those Wasim commandos, Chachaas,
>tigers etc etc are the one who lost their lives killing other innocent
>people on the orders of the one who is living a fabulous life in London.
>Why he did not take his friends with him???? What a friend just ran for
>his own life and left his friends in the jungle to fight. Well in nutshell
>" live by the bullet, die by the bullet" or run to London.
>
Can you explain what do you see "FABULOUS" in Altaf's life in exile ???
And also, we all saw what happened to Murtuza Bhutto, when he came back
from exile.
>3: Life in exile: You are in voluntry exile too Hassan mian but you have
>to work. He is in exile and don't have to work. If given achoice to live
>with that standard in London, Pakistan will be empty of young people any
>time.
>
Again, please explain what kinda "STANDARDS" you are talking about?
Obviously not the standards of somebodys palace in Surray !!
>4: No Kursi in Government: Altaaf bhayya jee is Dadaa, he don't want
>kursi, he will be under the tubelight so he controls all these others
>ulloos with his gangester battalion, enriches himself and don't have to
>face nothing. A real dadaa will never seek "kursi" for himself.
>
What kind of "ENRICHMENT" has he achieved so far ???
Are you talking about the "ENRICHMENT" which your usual politicians has ?
>5: No loans...No kickbacks: How about Bhatta and KhaalaiN qurbani kee
>plus of poor awaam..... does he still wants kick backs.... you must be
>kidding Hassan Bhayya jee.
>
So he made MQM just to collect khalein !!!
Excuse me !!
>6: No Pajero, no Kothi...... News are his b-in-laws are buying hotel
>chains And property in US of A left and right without having a rich back
>grounds( neither Industrialist or Vadera). Where is this money coming
>from?? .... I guess they are winning all the lotteries in America or is it
>Bhatta money......
>
Why don't you call Husain Murshid (brother of Ex Pres Irshad of Bangladesh)
and ask him what people of Bangladesh think about his limitless "PROPERTIES"
in Portland. You are a prime example of "one of those people"
>Now think who is living in a fools worl??? One day you will find out but I
>am not counting on that looking at your pathetic mental health. Just may
>be afterall we all believe in miracles.
>Will talk to you later,
>
>Baoo Phajja
>P.S: thanks for the title" Baoo" .
>
I can only say one thing for you:
"jantay bhi ho magar mantay nahein"
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Hassan Naqvi
What would you say about the people who initially got away,
but came back eg Murtuza Bhutto !!!
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Madan lal
On Tue, 27 May 1997 14:14:28 GMT, (Zaman) wrote:
>Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>So tell me Baoo Phajja, what kinda PERSONAL GAINS he got so far ?
>>
>>-- Execution of his family
>>-- Killing of his friends
>>-- Life in exile
>>-- No "Kursi" in govt
>>-- No "LOANS/KICBACKS" on the expense of tax-payers
>>-- No PAJARO or No KOTHI
>>
>>Can you deny any of the six points from above list ??
>>Living in fools world, may be ?
>>
>>Maazrat kay saath.
>>--
>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>>
>He got it what he deserved. only if he wasn't a coward rat. He would have got
>away with lot of........
HHN stupid altaf bhiyya da kutta is blind.
Unknown
Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>(Zaman) wrote:
>>Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>So tell me Baoo Phajja, what kinda PERSONAL GAINS he got so far ?
>>>
>>>-- Execution of his family
>>>-- Killing of his friends
>>>-- Life in exile
>>>-- No "Kursi" in govt
>>>-- No "LOANS/KICBACKS" on the expense of tax-payers
>>>-- No PAJARO or No KOTHI
>>>
>>>Can you deny any of the six points from above list ??
>>>Living in fools world, may be ?
>>>
>>>Maazrat kay saath.
>>>--
>>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>>>
>>He got it what he deserved. only if he wasn't a coward rat. He would have got
>>away with lot of........
>
>What would you say about the people who initially got away,
>but came back eg Murtuza Bhutto !!!
Then I should say Murtuza Bhutto got it what he deserved.
He is out of business for good.
Hassan Naqvi
ma...@agniPath.com (Madan lal) wrote:
>On Tue, 27 May 1997 14:14:28 GMT, (Zaman) wrote:
>
>>Hassan Naqvi <H-...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>>So tell me Baoo Phajja, what kinda PERSONAL GAINS he got so far ?
>>>
>>>-- Execution of his family
>>>-- Killing of his friends
>>>-- Life in exile
>>>-- No "Kursi" in govt
>>>-- No "LOANS/KICBACKS" on the expense of tax-payers
>>>-- No PAJARO or No KOTHI
>>>
>>>Can you deny any of the six points from above list ??
>>>Living in fools world, may be ?
>>>
>>>Maazrat kay saath.
>>>--
>>> Hassan Haider Naqvi
>>>
>>He got it what he deserved. only if he wasn't a coward rat. He would have got
>>away with lot of........
>
Inki mein already lay chuka hun,
thats why he so jealous of me,
above is an example of that.
--
Hassan Haider Naqvi
Yru10
Dear Shahbaz,
I think yours was a balanced and incisive analysis of the roots of ethnic
animosity in our cities. I noticed that you walked a tightrope and did
not tilt blindly either to Muhajir or Punjabi etc viewpoints. This is
just the kind of mature and just approach we need from enlightened people
from all communities within Pakistan. The enlightened people should
become a community against the hatemongers, party zealots, and fanatics of
all stripes.
As for the comments by Mr. Ali Raza -- here again we have the blind,
one-sided, partisan viewpoints (whether they be from one side or another.)
The quota system is intended to help people form backward regions of
Pakistan. It is Pakistan's Affirmative Action Program -- if you will. It
therefore intentionally discriminates not only against more educated, able
and privileged Karachites -- but also against more educated, able, and
privileged people from all over Pakistan. This is because people from
regions like Baluchistan, FATA, and interior Sindh are given reserved
seats. Therefore, a person with a 65% result does not only get selected
over a person with a 90% result from karachi -- but also over a person
with a 90% result from Lahore or Islamabad. Incidentally, I favour the
quota system. This is because when you grow up in a region where you have
to walk five miles each way to attend an open air school where the
teacher can barely speak Urdu or English, and when you are too poor to be
able to afford books or notebooks, then you should be given an extra push
in life!
Insofaras discrimination against Muhajirs in companies. Yes it exists.
Unfortunate but true. Do note however, that equal if not more
discrimination exists against non Muhajirs in companies dominated by
Muhajirs. Muhajirs have traditionally dominated the Civil Service and the
business sectors. Over the last couple of decades their positions have
eroded and they are now facing reverse discrimination. My viewpoint is:
Discrimination is Wrong. It is anti-progress and morally repugnant.
To end on a light note, and as a comical aside, one can take stock of the
Hunchback de SCP, our own Quasimodo, mental midget and emotional dwarf,
Nusrat Rizvi. Old, hunched over his PC, drooling the bile of hatred,
tortured psyche, a little drunk, a little demented ...
Regards,
Yusuf Hussain
Nadeem Jamali
Mo...@aol.com writes:
> Mr Jamali's article about facts-n-figure has only proved my point that
> admissions in Karachi/Hyderabad Colleges are based on ethnicity ie
> for Non-Sindhis and for Sindhis, thats what a "Domocile" is all about.
> All of the stats-n-figures are either outdated or bogus, I can easily
> prove that it nothing but a misrepresentation of facts.
>
> # Almost all of those figures are more than 15 years old,please see the
> source "Source: Census Book 1981"
And you have conducted a census after 1981???
> # Those stats-n-figures are a desperate effort by Sindhis to show
> Pakistanis
> that Mohajirs are only 5% of Pakistans polpulation and 22% of Sindh's.
> please see his article and I'll quote that
> " MQM leadership and its suporters are only representative of 22.64%
> populatoin of Sindh and 5% population of pakistan...."
> Basically its the same effort as of Bhutto's PPP's ghunda govt to
> deleberately show the population of Mohajirs as small as possible.
> According to most recent figures, Pakistan's population is 131.5
> million.
> and according to govt, Sindhi's are 12% and Mohajirs are 7%, again these
> are govt's figures and keep in mind that there is an effort to show the
> Mohajirs's population as small as possible. Please connect to fact book:
> http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/95fact/pk.html
> According to MQM's survay, population of Mohajirs is about 20 million.
> Fact/truth is Mohajirs are almost in same number as Sindhis, if not
> more.
Any explanation for how Mohajirs' population ratio is increasing
faster than that of Sindhis and others?? Aren't Mohajirs mostly
settled in urban areas with better education etc. and are more likely
to use birth control?
So please do tell me....
How ignorant are Mohajirs that they are contributing to even more
population growth than the illiterate masses in the rural areas of
Sindh? Is there something about the diet? Or they just can't find the
condoms in the dark (with all that loadshedding going on). Mind you,
you claim that this population surge has happened since 1981!!!
> # Sindhis have always accused Mohajirs of their loyalty to Pakistan,
> please
> read Mr Jamali's article and I quote from it
> "(iii) Without prejudice to the argument that most of them are illegal
> immigrants in Pakistan..."
> And again here
> " ...........................................most of whom come
> and go wherever they like from India, most of whom are illegal
> immigrants, have the temerity to demand, and then to kill and burn..."
> So, instead of asking Mohajirs for Pakistani citizenship, why don't they
> ask for the same from other Pakistanis like Punjabi/Pukhtoon etc.
> Most Sindhis have a extremely recist attitude towards Mohajirs and for
> other ethnicities of Pakistan on the other hand Mohajirs have always
> worked with open-heart with Punjabis/Pukhtoons/Sindhis etc in Karachi
> since 1947. Since the middle of 1980's, govt agencies have carried out
> ethnic-riots in Karachi to disgrace MQM.
If the claimed surge in Mohajirs population since 1981 is not because
of illegal immigration, I would really like to know why Mohajirs are
growing faster in number than everybody else???
And you trust the state run media, right??? Give me a break!!
> All of the above jobs has been reduced for Mohajirs since PPP ghunda
> govt came into power and not only the jobs have been reduced, their
> is a systamatic genocide of educated Mohajir youth is going on since
> October of 1993.
You murderers have some nerve to talk about genocides... your Mohajir
youth need to start using more condoms and less bullets.
Nadeem
--
Nadeem Jamali jam...@cs.uiuc.edu
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois-UC
Supra 05
To make pakistan a better place for muhajirs, one must have to kill all
the punjabi's, pathans and all th sindis; then and only pakistan will be
a better place for muhajirs. So if any one out there that shares my views
please carry out this act, and make pakistan a better plce as it was meant
to be.
Kunal Singh
In article <5n77iq$a...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> rizv...@ix.netcom.com(Nusrat Rizvi) writes:
.. stuff deleted ..
In <19970605143...@ladder02.news.aol.com> sup...@aol.com
Mr. Supra, It is indeed an inviting proposition and I for one
would give it serious thought before commenting on it.
Nusrat Rizvi
Rowayton, Conn
I do have to say that getting rid of mlecchas seems awfully appealing.
Maybe we can just give the mlecchas of India another region away from
the ocean in the mountainous north such as Kashmir and Pakistan could
also send its Punjabi, Sindhi and Pathan population up north. We may
be able to convince these stupid people if we call the new region
in the northwest something like ARYAN HOMELAND !
Khalid Saeed
Knoblach wrote:
>
> >>Subject: Re: Muhajirs and Pakistan: An Analysis
> >>Date: 27 May 1997 00:23:58 GMT
> Message-ID: <5md9iu$kb4$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>
> M.Ali Raza wrote ;
> do you want a person to have job in Pakistan just because he is from
> interior Sindh?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Have you heard the famouse story about a man his camel and his tent ..
........................................................... !!!!!!!!
do you think those poor sindhies have any rights or share in Sind and
Pakistan ?
I would rather let all the people who on merit can get
> into these great universities have the seats, because eventually
> if you allow these bright, intelligent people (who you can call "the
> future
> of Pakistan", or Mohajirs) to do their work just like the best Mohajir
> of history, Quaid-i-Azam did, then these people would fix Pakistan
> and move the country forward so there would be no "interior kay ghareeb".
#######################
If you are waiting for somebody to " allow " you to show your smarts
and leadership , it does not say much about either one of your
qualities ................ does it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Some of you are going to take you usual stance with this comment,
> (which is to know the truth in your heart, yet deny it here), but I'll
> make it anyway.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Quaid-e-Azam was a great leader , and Punjabies , Sindhies
Baloch and Pakhtoon have a great respect for him --- may be
even more than so called Mohajirs.
But as they say a pir is as big as his murids make him . It was the sacrifice
and struggles of Pathans Punjabies Sindhies and Balochs that made
him great leader, that he was . If he had to depend on MQM types
he would have been sitting in LONDON too , just like ........
Regards
Khalid
>
> Neither the Sindhi, nor the Punjabi, nor for that matter did the Pakhtoon
> rise against India. It was the Quaid-i-Azam who brought the issue forward
> of a Pakistan. If any part of the Pak govt or national system works today,
> it is because it was established by the Quaid. Had it been left to the
> Punjabi, there still would be no Pakistan, and you children would still
> mingle and freely mix with the Hindus.
>
> M. Ali Raza
Zafaryab Khan
In article <19970605210...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
>into these great universities have the seats, because eventually
>if you allow these bright, intelligent people (who you can call "the
>future
>of Pakistan", or Mohajirs) to do their work just like the best Mohajir
>of history, Quaid-i-Azam did, then these people would fix Pakistan
>and move the country forward so there would be no "interior kay ghareeb".
>
>(which is to know the truth in your heart, yet deny it here), but I'll
>make it anyway.
>
>rise against India. It was the Quaid-i-Azam who brought the issue forward
>of a Pakistan. If any part of the Pak govt or national system works today,
>it is because it was established by the Quaid. Had it been left to the
>Punjabi, there still would be no Pakistan, and you children would still
>mingle and freely mix with the Hindus.
>
>M. Ali Raza
>
I seem to be arguing with both "camps" on this thread. AS I said:
An argument can be made either way and its tough to take a stance on this
issue either way.
"Future of Pakistan" could be a person from interior sind as well(given
the
opportunity etc.) (Erstwhile) Muhajers are not genetically
superior.
As far as your comment about creation of Pakistan is concerned, I can't
disagree more. There were many Punjabi and Paxtun activists and leaders.
There would have been no Pakistan if the local population did not support
it(and no Pakistan if the (erstwhile) Muhajers had not pitched in).
It was a team effort and seeking unfair/extra recognition can only lead to
dissension.