Saraiki, Sindhi, Panjabi (was Re: Khalistan solution)
Nadeem Jamali
en...@sun.deathtospammers.leeds.ac.uk (J Raza) wrote:
> M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> >
> > Prabhdeep K Bajwa wrote:
> >
> > > Punjabi is sameway collection of Siraiki, Pothohari and Lahori.
> > >
> >
> > I've seen a comment from a linguist that it's not clear whether
> > Siraiki is a dialect of Sindhi or Punjabi and that it's distinct
> > enough to be classified as a separate language.
>
>
> Oh Mr. Nadeem Jamali is no linguist. He's a hard core Sindhi
> nationalist.
I'm not exactly surprised you say that. Associating anything good
with Sindh must make one a "hard core Sindhi nationalist" to most
Pakistanis like you...
Anyway, here's the Sariaki entry from the ethnologue (thirteenth
edition, edited by Barbara F. Grimes) from the Summer Institute of
Linguistics at Dallas, TX. You can access it at
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/ under both Pakistan and India.
Pakistan's entry is more detailed, so that's the one I'm including
here. Note that it is no more considered a dialect of Punjabi and
and has "85% lexical similarity with Sindhi".
SARAIKI (RIASITI, BAHAWALPURI, MULTANI, SOUTHERN PANJABI, SIRAIKI)
[SKR] 15,000,000 in Pakistan (1976 Shackle), 9.8% of the population;
15,692 in India (1971 census); 15,020,000 in all countries. Southern
Punjab and northern Sind, Indus River Valley, Jampur area. Derawali is
in Dera Ismail Khan, Tank, Bannu, and Dera Ghazi Khan. Jangli is in
Sahiwal area. Also in United Kingdom. Indo-European, Indo-Iranian,
Indo-Aryan, Northwestern zone, Lahnda. Dialects: DERAWALI, MULTANI
(KHATKI), BAHAWALPURI (RIASATI, REASATI), JANGLI, JATKI. 85% lexical
similarity with Sindhi; 68% with Dhatki, Odki, and Sansi. Dialects
blend into each other, into Panjabi to the east, and Sindhi to the
south. Until recently it was considered to be a dialect of
Panjabi. Literary movement centered in Multan and Bahawalpur. There
are Saraiki literary societies. 5% to 15% literate. Grammars.
Dictionaries. Muslim, Hindu. NT 1819, out of print. Bible portions
1898. Work in progress.
cheers!
Nadeem
Ameer Hassan
On 11 Jan 1998, Nadeem Jamali wrote:
I'm not exactly surprised you say that. Associating anything good
with Sindh must make one a "hard core Sindhi nationalist" to most
Pakistanis like you...
Anyway, here's the Sariaki entry from the ethnologue (thirteenth
edition, edited by Barbara F. Grimes) from the Summer Institute of
Linguistics at Dallas, TX. You can access it at
http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/ under both Pakistan and India.
Pakistan's entry is more detailed, so that's the one I'm including
here. Note that it is no more considered a dialect of Punjabi and
and has "85% lexical similarity with Sindhi".
** What is % lexical similarity with Punjabi?
** (not the Lohori or Jalundhari Punjabi) but the Punjabi spoken in
** the areas mentioned below?
SARAIKI (RIASITI, BAHAWALPURI, MULTANI, SOUTHERN PANJABI, SIRAIKI)
[SKR] 15,000,000 in Pakistan (1976 Shackle), 9.8% of the population;
15,692 in India (1971 census); 15,020,000 in all countries. Southern
Punjab and northern Sind, Indus River Valley, Jampur area. Derawali is
in Dera Ismail Khan, Tank, Bannu, and Dera Ghazi Khan. Jangli is in
Sahiwal area. Also in United Kingdom. Indo-European, Indo-Iranian,
Indo-Aryan, Northwestern zone, Lahnda. Dialects: DERAWALI, MULTANI
(KHATKI), BAHAWALPURI (RIASATI, REASATI), JANGLI, JATKI. 85% lexical
similarity with Sindhi; 68% with Dhatki, Odki, and Sansi. Dialects
blend into each other, into Panjabi to the east, and Sindhi to the
south. Until recently it was considered to be a dialect of
Panjabi.
** Why? And what changed?
Gul Agha
As I recall, the lexical similarity between Sindhi/Seraiki and Punjabi
is about 50-60%. Besides the 85% lexical similarity between Sindhi
(vicholi or Hyderabadi Sindhi) and Seraiki, what makes Sindhi and
Seraiki dialects of one another, and distinct from Punjabi, is their
shared phonetics, phonology, morphology and syntax.
A distinctive phonetic characteristic of Sindhi, and most of its
dialects (a couple having lost it), is the use of implosive -- Sindhi
has four, in fact Seraiki has the complete set of 5 (bb, jj, gg, dd,
and DD). Another critical determinant is morphology, where both
Sindhi and Seraiki share their elaborate system of clitics. (Persian
has a simple type, namely, pronominal suffixation).
The closeness of Sindhi and Seraiki dialects should not be surprising.
For example, the Chach and Sen Kingdoms, with their capitol in Aror
(near Sakhar, Sindh), extended to Multan.
Popular Sindhi folk singers to this day have a significant repertoire
of Seraiki songs (and typically no other language), and many famous
Sindhi poets, including Sachal Sarmast, the second most revered Sindhi
poet has a large body of poetry in Seraiki. Incidentally, today is
the anniversary of Sachal Sarmast.
Peace,
Gul Agha
J Raza
Nadeem Jamali wrote:
>
> en...@sun.deathtospammers.leeds.ac.uk (J Raza) wrote:
>
> > M. Ranjit Mathews wrote:
> > >
> > > Prabhdeep K Bajwa wrote:
> > >
> > > > Punjabi is sameway collection of Siraiki, Pothohari and Lahori.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I've seen a comment from a linguist that it's not clear whether
> > > Siraiki is a dialect of Sindhi or Punjabi and that it's distinct
> > > enough to be classified as a separate language.
> >
> >
> > Oh Mr. Nadeem Jamali is no linguist. He's a hard core Sindhi
> > nationalist.
>
What does "good" or "bad" have to do with anything?
> with Sindh must make one a "hard core Sindhi nationalist" to most
> Pakistanis like you...
>
So now its great big mother fucker assumptions time, is it? What do you
know about me? I know that you're a Sindhi nationalist because of what
you have put on the Net.
In actual fact, I greatly respect and honour the Sindhi nation for its
love of its language, culture, land and heritage. Punjabis could learn a
thing or two from you guys. And just don't ask me what I think of Urdu
aka Hindi aka Brothel-Speak.
> Anyway, here's the Sariaki entry from the ethnologue (thirteenth
> edition, edited by Barbara F. Grimes) from the Summer Institute of
> Linguistics at Dallas, TX. You can access it at
> http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/ under both Pakistan and India.
> Pakistan's entry is more detailed, so that's the one I'm including
> here. Note that it is no more considered a dialect of Punjabi and
> and has "85% lexical similarity with Sindhi".
>
A christian missionary organization?? Do me a favour!!
BTW, I see that one of the alternative names for Siraiki is Southern
Punjabi. Why not Northern Sindhi, pray tell?
cheers to you too,
Jamil
> SARAIKI (RIASITI, BAHAWALPURI, MULTANI, SOUTHERN PANJABI, SIRAIKI)
> [SKR] 15,000,000 in Pakistan (1976 Shackle), 9.8% of the population;
> 15,692 in India (1971 census); 15,020,000 in all countries. Southern
> Punjab and northern Sind, Indus River Valley, Jampur area. Derawali is
> in Dera Ismail Khan, Tank, Bannu, and Dera Ghazi Khan. Jangli is in
> Sahiwal area. Also in United Kingdom. Indo-European, Indo-Iranian,
> Indo-Aryan, Northwestern zone, Lahnda. Dialects: DERAWALI, MULTANI
> (KHATKI), BAHAWALPURI (RIASATI, REASATI), JANGLI, JATKI. 85% lexical
> similarity with Sindhi; 68% with Dhatki, Odki, and Sansi. Dialects
> blend into each other, into Panjabi to the east, and Sindhi to the
> south. Until recently it was considered to be a dialect of
> Panjabi. Literary movement centered in Multan and Bahawalpur. There
J Raza
Ameer Hassan wrote:
>
> On 11 Jan 1998, Nadeem Jamali wrote:
>
>
> Pakistanis like you...
>
> edition, edited by Barbara F. Grimes) from the Summer Institute of
> Linguistics at Dallas, TX. You can access it at
> http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/ under both Pakistan and India.
> Pakistan's entry is more detailed, so that's the one I'm including
> here. Note that it is no more considered a dialect of Punjabi and
> and has "85% lexical similarity with Sindhi".
>
> ** (not the Lohori or Jalundhari Punjabi) but the Punjabi spoken in
> ** the areas mentioned below?
>
>
> [SKR] 15,000,000 in Pakistan (1976 Shackle), 9.8% of the population;
> 15,692 in India (1971 census); 15,020,000 in all countries. Southern
> Punjab and northern Sind, Indus River Valley, Jampur area. Derawali is
> in Dera Ismail Khan, Tank, Bannu, and Dera Ghazi Khan. Jangli is in
> Sahiwal area. Also in United Kingdom. Indo-European, Indo-Iranian,
> Indo-Aryan, Northwestern zone, Lahnda. Dialects: DERAWALI, MULTANI
> (KHATKI), BAHAWALPURI (RIASATI, REASATI), JANGLI, JATKI. 85% lexical
> similarity with Sindhi; 68% with Dhatki, Odki, and Sansi. Dialects
> blend into each other, into Panjabi to the east, and Sindhi to the
> south. Until recently it was considered to be a dialect of
> Panjabi.
>
>
You've raised some good points Ameer sahab. Lets see if any satisfactory
answers are forthcoming.
regards,
Jamil
J Raza
Mo wrote:
>
> Gul Agha <ag...@yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >Besides the 85% lexical similarity between Sindhi
> (vicholi or Hyderabadi Sindhi) and Seraiki, <
>
> and given to Sindh.
Your parents, my dear sir, have made a total nut case. Your brain
should be detached from your arse and given to your head.
regards,
Jamil
Gul Agha
11305...@compuserve.com (Mo) writes:
>
> Gul Agha <ag...@yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >Besides the 85% lexical similarity between Sindhi
> (vicholi or Hyderabadi Sindhi) and Seraiki, <
>
> You have made a cast iron case. Seriaki should be detached from Punjab
> and given to Sindh.
Not clear Sindhis would like this. I do gather that in Seraiki
speaking areas close to Sindh (e.g. Bawalpur), they weren't the sort
of massacres that Punjabi speaking areas witnessed, so it is likely
that Sufi influence was stronger in these. But liberalism has come
under considerable strain in Seraiki speaking areas, and Sindh already
is reeling from the effects of mass migrations of intolerant
fundamentalist folks from just about everywhere (including Northern
India and Afghanistan). Sindhis have emphatically reaffirmed their
tolerant Sufi values in no uncertain terms while the rest of the
country seems to continue down a violent spiral inspired by
fanaticism.
Of course, Seraiki speaking people should be given their own
province/state, if that is what THEY would like since it is their own
historic area. They can then figure out their own cultural values.
Kutchi and Thari are two other dialects of Sindhi in areas with long
cultural affinity (in fact, someone just drew a random line through
the Thar desert based on percentages of Hindus/Muslims, a figure which
changes only gradually). One of the intriguing reports I saw was the
fact that some Sindhi *Muslim* residents (perhaps tens of thousands)
of Thar "migrated" *to* India at partition. These Sindhis belong to
the nomadic gypsy tribes whose clans got arbitrarily divided and the
family consensus on where to go in these cases was the other side of
the border. Some border villages in Rajasthan are 5-10% Sindhi Muslim
but they co-exist peacefully with other nomadic gypsies, as they have
for centuries.
Peace,
Gul A. Agha
Nadeem Jamali
ee...@sun.thanks.but.no.thanks.leeds.ac.uk (J Raza) writes:
> > Anyway, here's the Sariaki entry from the ethnologue (thirteenth
> > edition, edited by Barbara F. Grimes) from the Summer Institute of
> > Linguistics at Dallas, TX. You can access it at
> > http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/ under both Pakistan and India.
> > Pakistan's entry is more detailed, so that's the one I'm including
> > here. Note that it is no more considered a dialect of Punjabi and
> > and has "85% lexical similarity with Sindhi".
> >
>
> A christian missionary organization?? Do me a favour!!
Great thinking... if they're not Sindhi nationalists, they must be
a Christian missionary organization :) Which part of "Summer Institute
of Linguistics" says "Christian missionary"?
> BTW, I see that one of the alternative names for Siraiki is Southern
> Punjabi. Why not Northern Sindhi, pray tell?
Perhaps Sindhis don't have a tradition of grabbing others' things and
claiming them as theirs... they have a hard enough time claiming their
own things :) I can't even begin to give you examples...
cheers!
Nadeem
Nadeem Jamali
ee...@sun.thanks.but.no.thanks.leeds.ac.uk (J Raza) writes:
>
> > Great thinking... if they're not Sindhi nationalists, they must be
> > a Christian missionary organization :) Which part of "Summer Institute
> > of Linguistics" says "Christian missionary"?
> >
>
> I know the URL's of a few pages which would expose you for the Sindhi
> nationalist that you are, so don't get cute. Our Urda friends on SCP
> might like to hear your views on their (non)future in Sind.
So, the Summer Institute of Linguistics isn't a christian missionary
organization now?
Please feel free to expose me. Why would I want to hide things from
people after putting them on a website? I still don't see what makes
me a hardcore Sindhi nationalist.
> > > BTW, I see that one of the alternative names for Siraiki is Southern
> > > Punjabi. Why not Northern Sindhi, pray tell?
> >
> > Perhaps Sindhis don't have a tradition of grabbing others' things and
> > claiming them as theirs... they have a hard enough time claiming their
> > own things :) I can't even begin to give you examples...
>
> Peruse, at your leisure, any map of the Indus Valley, Siraiki speaking
> areas i.e. Multan, Muzzafargarh, Bahwalpur, Dera Ghazi Khan and the
> rest, are unequivocally within the "Land of the Five Rivers". No amount
> of bullshit on your part can change that fact, inconvenient as it may be
> for you and your Sindhi nationalist bum-chums.
So, you will let go of Multan if I showed you a map that has them in
Sindh? :)
> I wholeheartedly support you and your people in your struggle against
> the Pakistan state and its political and cultural oppression. But lets
> just make one thing clear; You can say or do what you want to the
> ever-dwindling Urda community of Urban Sind, but fuck with Punjabis, a
> nation of 90 million, and you'll pay dearly - no threats, simply a
> prognostication.
And you call me a hardcore nationalist? :) Why this hostility? Is it
such a big deal if Siraiki is closer to Sindhi than to Punjabi? I
have no intention of getting intimate with any Punjabis... you guys
are so brave, people from your nation of 90 millions kill each other
for belonging to different religions... heck, even different sects of
the same religion. So please spare us your wrath, oh masters! :)
> cheers to you too!
>
> Jat Punjabi
And I should care? But while we're at it, what does "Jat Punjabi"
mean? Do you belong to one of the tribes that speak Jatki? According
to the SIL ethnologue (again), those good folks live around the
southern borders of Sindh and Balochistan... no where near Punjab. I
wonder if this is another case of borrowed identity...
cheers!
Nadeem
Mo
J Raza
Nadeem Jamali wrote:
>
> ee...@sun.thanks.but.no.thanks.leeds.ac.uk (J Raza) writes:
>
> > > Anyway, here's the Sariaki entry from the ethnologue (thirteenth
> > > edition, edited by Barbara F. Grimes) from the Summer Institute of
> > > Linguistics at Dallas, TX. You can access it at
> > > http://www.sil.org/ethnologue/ under both Pakistan and India.
> > > Pakistan's entry is more detailed, so that's the one I'm including
> > > here. Note that it is no more considered a dialect of Punjabi and
> > > and has "85% lexical similarity with Sindhi".
> > >
> >
> > A christian missionary organization?? Do me a favour!!
>
> a Christian missionary organization :) Which part of "Summer Institute
> of Linguistics" says "Christian missionary"?
>
I know the URL's of a few pages which would expose you for the Sindhi
nationalist that you are, so don't get cute. Our Urda friends on SCP
might like to hear your views on their (non)future in Sind.
> > BTW, I see that one of the alternative names for Siraiki is Southern
> > Punjabi. Why not Northern Sindhi, pray tell?
>
> Perhaps Sindhis don't have a tradition of grabbing others' things and
> claiming them as theirs... they have a hard enough time claiming their
> own things :) I can't even begin to give you examples...
>
Peruse, at your leisure, any map of the Indus Valley, Siraiki speaking
areas i.e. Multan, Muzzafargarh, Bahwalpur, Dera Ghazi Khan and the
rest, are unequivocally within the "Land of the Five Rivers". No amount
of bullshit on your part can change that fact, inconvenient as it may be
for you and your Sindhi nationalist bum-chums.
I wholeheartedly support you and your people in your struggle against
the Pakistan state and its political and cultural oppression. But lets
just make one thing clear; You can say or do what you want to the
ever-dwindling Urda community of Urban Sind, but fuck with Punjabis, a
nation of 90 million, and you'll pay dearly - no threats, simply a
prognostication.
cheers to you too!
Jat Punjabi
> cheers!
>
> Nadeem
Amitabh Hajela
On the debate about Siraiki, and whether it's closer to Sindhi or
Punjabi: The following is a sample paragraph, given in English, Punjabi
(of Amritsar), Sindhi (of Hyderabad) and Siraiki (of Multan). People
can decide if they think Siraiki is more like Sindhi or Punjabi, but to
me, it seems more like Punjabi.
English - One man had two sons. The younger of them told his father,
"Father, give me the share of the property which is mine." So he
divided his wealth and gave it to them. A few days later the younger
son gathered everything together and went away to a distant country, and
there he squandered his money in debauchery. And when everything was
completely spent, a great famine fell in that country, and he began to
be needy.
Punjabi - Ikk manukkh de do putt se. Unhan vichon chotte ne apne piu
nun akhia "Bapu ji, mal di wand jihri mainun aundi hai deu." Ate usne
unhan nun apni jadaat wand ditti. Atte thore dinan pichon chotta putt
sabb kuj kattha kar ke, durade des nun chalia giya, ate otthe apna dhan
waildaari vich gua ditta. Atte jaddon sabb kuj kharach kar ditta, tan
us des vich wadda kaal a pia, te oh mutaj hon lagga.
Siraiki - Hikk shakhs de dun puttar haain. Unhan vichchun nandhe apne
piu kun akhea "Peo, mal da hissa jitti maikun aanda he de." Atte oon
unhan kun apni jaedad wandd ditti. Atte thole dihaare kanun pichche
nandha puttur sabbh kujjh kattha kar ke, hikk paraaye de mulk vichch van
reha, jitthan apna mal badchalni vichch udaeus. Atte utthan jaddan
sabbh kujjh kharch kar dittus, tan oon mulk vichch wadda kaal pea, atte
hun o muthaj thiwan laggea.
Sindhi - Hekire maanhu khe bba put hua. Tin maan nandhe piu khe chayo
"Baba, mal maan jeko bhaano munhje hise ache, dde." Ae hun bbinhi khe
mal viraahe ddino. Ae thoran ddeenhan khaan po nandho put sabh ki hath
kare, hekire ddurahen ddeh dde uthi halio, jite panhjo mal ajhalai mein
vinaiyain. Sabh khapain khaan po unhe ddeh mein ddukar achi pio, ae ho
parawas thian laggo.
Gul Agha
Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
> On the debate about Siraiki, and whether it's closer to Sindhi or
> Punjabi: The following is a sample paragraph... People
> can decide if they think Siraiki is more like Sindhi or Punjabi, but to
> me, it seems more like Punjabi.
Only a pretentious idiot would substitute his or her naive judgement,
based on one paragraph at that, for that of scientists who spent their
professional life in the well developed discipline of linguistics and
have conducted careful studies.
That said the example below is very buggy.
-- it is not in universal phonetic alphabet, so the sounds are not
accurately represented. There is no word in Sindhi put (it is puttru
or puttu depending on the accent)
-- there are numerous transliteration errors, the speakers I have
heard would say it should be 'ddihaare' not 'dihaaare' in Seraiki.
All Sindhi and Seraiki words end in (short or long) vowels.
-- First the Sindhi transliteration does not correspond. E.g., 'mal'
[should be maalu] is wealth, 'jaidadu' is land.
-- There are many cognates for a word. It picks distinct cognates for
Seraiki and Sindhi for no apparent reason. 'jaidad' is also in
standard Sindhi word in common use with the same meaning.
Of course, Sindhi has over hundreds of thousands of words (the
comprehensive dictionary, which is quite inadequate runs into 5 thick
volumes of fine print) and scholars and poets use the vastness of the
language and many dialects. Same for 'kujjhu' etc.
Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
> Siraiki - Hikk shakhs de dun puttar haain. Unhan vichchun nandhe apne
> piu kun akhea "Peo, mal da hissa jitti maikun aanda he de." Atte oon
> unhan kun apni jaedad wandd ditti. Atte thole dihaare kanun pichche
> nandha puttur sabbh kujjh kattha kar ke, hikk paraaye de mulk vichch van
> reha, jitthan apna mal badchalni vichch udaeus. Atte utthan jaddan
> sabbh kujjh kharch kar dittus, tan oon mulk vichch wadda kaal pea, atte
> hun o muthaj thiwan laggea.
>
> Sindhi - Hekire maanhu khe bba put hua. Tin maan nandhe piu khe chayo
> "Baba, mal maan jeko bhaano munhje hise ache, dde." Ae hun bbinhi khe
> mal viraahe ddino. Ae thoran ddeenhan khaan po nandho put sabh ki hath
> kare, hekire ddurahen ddeh dde uthi halio, jite panhjo mal ajhalai mein
> vinaiyain. Sabh khapain khaan po unhe ddeh mein ddukar achi pio, ae ho
> parawas thian laggo.
Peace,
Gul A. Agha
Amitabh Hajela
Gul Agha wrote:
>
> Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
>
> > On the debate about Siraiki, and whether it's closer to Sindhi or
> > Punjabi: The following is a sample paragraph... People
> > can decide if they think Siraiki is more like Sindhi or Punjabi, but to
> > me, it seems more like Punjabi.
>
> Only a pretentious idiot would substitute his or her naive judgement,
> based on one paragraph at that, for that of scientists who spent their
> professional life in the well developed discipline of linguistics and
> have conducted careful studies.
Well, firstly, I never said my opinion was a substitute for those of any
"scientists", it was simply my impression from the examples. Secondly,
thanks for calling me an idiot, butthead. Did you learn that from
Sachal Sarmast?
> That said the example below is very buggy.
>
> -- it is not in universal phonetic alphabet, so the sounds are not
> accurately represented. There is no word in Sindhi put (it is puttru
> or puttu depending on the accent)
>
> -- there are numerous transliteration errors, the speakers I have
> heard would say it should be 'ddihaare' not 'dihaaare' in Seraiki.
> All Sindhi and Seraiki words end in (short or long) vowels.
>
> -- First the Sindhi transliteration does not correspond. E.g., 'mal'
> [should be maalu] is wealth, 'jaidadu' is land.
Would any of that have made the Siraiki seem closer to the Sindhi?
Look, I got these samples out of a huge volume of famous books called
The Linguistic Survey of India, by G.A. Grierson. It has samples of
every dialect and language from every part of British India. I'm not
claiming it's error free, but if all you could find were those few small
points, I'd say it's done a good job (but there I go like a pretentious
idiot, expressing my opinion again!) Anyway, that particular story of
the man with two sons is given for every one of the dialects/languages,
to serve as a general comparison. Other stories and songs, etc. are
given too, but vary from language to language. I can post it in any
other language or dialect, from any region you want too.
>
> -- There are many cognates for a word. It picks distinct cognates for
> Seraiki and Sindhi for no apparent reason. 'jaidad' is also in
> standard Sindhi word in common use with the same meaning.
Jaedad is simply a Persian word which was borrowed by many languages of
the sub-continent. It can be found in Urdu and is understood by Hindi
speakers as well, so what's your point? The comparison should be
between the real Sindhi vs. the real Siraiki words. So, for example,
Punjabi says "unhan vichon", Siraiki says "unhan vichchun", yet Sindhi
says "tin maan" for "among them". There are other examples like this in
the samples too. So, what does it seem like to you? Incidentally, that
story goes on for several more paragraphs, and consistently the Siraiki
is more like the Punjabi than Sindhi. Now, I have no agenda or interest
in proving this to be true, it's just the facts. I love desi languages,
so I entered this debate, but I don't really care whether you call it
Siraiki, Punjabi, Sindhi, or Martian. Got it?
M. Ranjit Mathews
Amitabh Hajela wrote:
> On the debate about Siraiki, and whether it's closer to Sindhi or
> Punjabi: The following is a sample paragraph, given in English, Punjabi
> (of Amritsar), Sindhi (of Hyderabad) and Siraiki (of Multan). People
> can decide if they think Siraiki is more like Sindhi or Punjabi, but to
> me, it seems more like Punjabi.
Well, in Grierson's opinion, Siraiki is a sister of Sindhi which picked up a
Punjabi vocabulary. According to him, Sindhi, Siraiki, Lahnda, Hind Ko,etc. are
derived from the same apabrahmsa called Vrachda whereas
Punjabi is descended from another apabrahmsa called Takka.
>
>
> English - One man had two sons. The younger of them told his father,
> "Father, give me the share of the property which is mine." So he
> divided his wealth and gave it to them. A few days later the younger
> son gathered everything together and went away to a distant country, and
> there he squandered his money in debauchery. And when everything was
> completely spent, a great famine fell in that country, and he began to
> be needy.
>
> Punjabi - Ikk manukkh de do putt se. Unhan vichon chotte ne apne piu
> nun akhia "Bapu ji, mal di wand jihri mainun aundi hai deu." Ate usne
> unhan nun apni jadaat wand ditti. Atte thore dinan pichon chotta putt
> sabb kuj kattha kar ke, durade des nun chalia giya, ate otthe apna dhan
> waildaari vich gua ditta. Atte jaddon sabb kuj kharach kar ditta, tan
> us des vich wadda kaal a pia, te oh mutaj hon lagga.
>
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <34BD46...@eclipse.net>, Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> wrote:
Based on the samples your provided, it appears that Saraiki is closer to
Punjabi than Sindhi. Being a native Punjabi-speaker, I cannot understand
Sindhi but can understand almost 100% the songs written by Bulle-Shah
and other peots/Sufis from the Saraik region. Even in written form, I
could almost completely identify it with Punjabi words while the Sindhi
words appeared very different and the sentence structure and word ordering
was also different. Now if the claim of 85% "closeness" of Saraiki with Sindhi
being advanced by the "scientists" is true, then I believe I should understand
at least 50% of Sindhi also - but this is not the case.
Al Beruni
Guys, guys, take it easy. Mr. Agha and Mr. Hajela both have their points.
Siraiki is a language spoken in a vast regions of Punjab, Sindh and
Baluchistan. Like any other language, it does have different flavors or
dialects. Based on my personal experience, I can talk about Siraiki of
Minawali, Dera Ghazi Khan, and Multan etc. Siraiki of these regions does
have a close resemblance with Punjabi of Faisalabad, Sheikhupura, Lahore,
Gujranwala, Gujrat etc. I have been to interior Sindh as well. Sindhi of
Hyderabad is definitely different from the Siraiki I came across. Still Mr.
Agha may have a point when it comes to Siraiki of regions bordering Sindh.
Mr. Hajela's description is valid when he compared Punjabi of Amritsar.
Still a person from the border of Baluchistan and Punjab can find a lot
common things between Siraiki and Baluchi of that region.
Languages and I mean all the languages are beautiful expressions of human
soul. I don't know why we have to politicize them, specially among
intellectuals of the cyberspace.
Gul Agha wrote in message ...
>
>Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
>
>> On the debate about Siraiki, and whether it's closer to Sindhi or
>> Punjabi: The following is a sample paragraph... People
>> can decide if they think Siraiki is more like Sindhi or Punjabi, but to
>> me, it seems more like Punjabi.
>
>Only a pretentious idiot would substitute his or her naive judgement,
>based on one paragraph at that, for that of scientists who spent their
>professional life in the well developed discipline of linguistics and
>have conducted careful studies.
>
>That said the example below is very buggy.
>
>-- it is not in universal phonetic alphabet, so the sounds are not
>accurately represented. There is no word in Sindhi put (it is puttru
>or puttu depending on the accent)
>
>-- there are numerous transliteration errors, the speakers I have
>heard would say it should be 'ddihaare' not 'dihaaare' in Seraiki.
>All Sindhi and Seraiki words end in (short or long) vowels.
>
>-- First the Sindhi transliteration does not correspond. E.g., 'mal'
>[should be maalu] is wealth, 'jaidadu' is land.
>
>-- There are many cognates for a word. It picks distinct cognates for
>Seraiki and Sindhi for no apparent reason. 'jaidad' is also in
>standard Sindhi word in common use with the same meaning.
>
>Of course, Sindhi has over hundreds of thousands of words (the
>comprehensive dictionary, which is quite inadequate runs into 5 thick
>volumes of fine print) and scholars and poets use the vastness of the
>language and many dialects. Same for 'kujjhu' etc.
>
>Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
>
>> Siraiki - Hikk shakhs de dun puttar haain. Unhan vichchun nandhe apne
>> piu kun akhea "Peo, mal da hissa jitti maikun aanda he de." Atte oon
>> unhan kun apni jaedad wandd ditti. Atte thole dihaare kanun pichche
>> nandha puttur sabbh kujjh kattha kar ke, hikk paraaye de mulk vichch van
>> reha, jitthan apna mal badchalni vichch udaeus. Atte utthan jaddan
>> sabbh kujjh kharch kar dittus, tan oon mulk vichch wadda kaal pea, atte
>> hun o muthaj thiwan laggea.
>>
>> Sindhi - Hekire maanhu khe bba put hua. Tin maan nandhe piu khe chayo
>> "Baba, mal maan jeko bhaano munhje hise ache, dde." Ae hun bbinhi khe
>> mal viraahe ddino. Ae thoran ddeenhan khaan po nandho put sabh ki hath
>> kare, hekire ddurahen ddeh dde uthi halio, jite panhjo mal ajhalai mein
>> vinaiyain. Sabh khapain khaan po unhe ddeh mein ddukar achi pio, ae ho
>> parawas thian laggo.
>
>Peace,
>
>Gul A. Agha
Nadeem Jamali
Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
> Gul Agha wrote:
> >
> > Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
> >
> > > On the debate about Siraiki, and whether it's closer to Sindhi or
> > > Punjabi: The following is a sample paragraph... People
> > > can decide if they think Siraiki is more like Sindhi or Punjabi, but to
> > > me, it seems more like Punjabi.
> >
> > Only a pretentious idiot would substitute his or her naive judgement,
> > based on one paragraph at that, for that of scientists who spent their
> > professional life in the well developed discipline of linguistics and
> > have conducted careful studies.
>
> Well, firstly, I never said my opinion was a substitute for those of any
> "scientists", it was simply my impression from the examples. Secondly,
> thanks for calling me an idiot, butthead. Did you learn that from
> Sachal Sarmast?
You didn't say to substitute your opinion with that of experts, but
you did imply that others can make a decision based on that one para,
as you did, which would clearly be a naive judgement. It would take a
pretentious idiot to give much weight to a decision so arrived.
> > That said the example below is very buggy.
> >
> > -- it is not in universal phonetic alphabet, so the sounds are not
> > accurately represented. There is no word in Sindhi put (it is puttru
> > or puttu depending on the accent)
> >
> > -- there are numerous transliteration errors, the speakers I have
> > heard would say it should be 'ddihaare' not 'dihaaare' in Seraiki.
> > All Sindhi and Seraiki words end in (short or long) vowels.
> >
> > -- First the Sindhi transliteration does not correspond. E.g., 'mal'
> > [should be maalu] is wealth, 'jaidadu' is land.
>
> Would any of that have made the Siraiki seem closer to the Sindhi?
Yes, for one thing, replacing many of the d's, j's, b's etc. with
dd's, jj's etc. to represent the fact that they are implosives in
Siraiki, will itself make a big difference. Sindhi and Siraiki have
implosives and Punjabi doesn't. See? There is a reason why it takes
experts to make such decisions. I'll look up Grierson again, but the
last time I checked, I'm pretty sure I saw a mention of evidence of
closer relationship between Sindhi and Siraiki... but that book
was also published long ago (first in the 1920's?)
> Look, I got these samples out of a huge volume of famous books called
> The Linguistic Survey of India, by G.A. Grierson. It has samples of
> every dialect and language from every part of British India. I'm not
> claiming it's error free, but if all you could find were those few small
> points, I'd say it's done a good job (but there I go like a pretentious
> idiot, expressing my opinion again!) Anyway, that particular story of
> the man with two sons is given for every one of the dialects/languages,
> to serve as a general comparison. Other stories and songs, etc. are
> given too, but vary from language to language. I can post it in any
> other language or dialect, from any region you want too.
Not that it would be too scientific, but perhaps you could list all
the similarities and differences you see in the passages. A simple
grammatical distinction that's clear from the passage is how the word
"nandhay" in Sindhi and Siraiki converts to two words "nandhay nay" in
Panjabi. So in Punjabi you seem to need to say <noun> did <verb>,
whereas in Sindhi and Siraiki, one says <noun> <verb>.
Here are just a few things that would be essential in doing a
scientific study:
- have a proper transliteration in the universal phonetic alphabet
- show that the sample paragraph is truly representative of the
language
- show that the differences and similarities between samples of
different langauges are representative of those in the languages
and so on...
Not that it should matter, but I'll add that I can understand most of
Siraiki and have had conversations with people while they were
speaking Siraiki and I Sindhi. Even Punjabi is pretty comprehensible
to me though Punjabi speakers usually haven't understood Sindhi at all
as easily. Now, I don't have the arrogance to go around telling people
that Punjabi is mostly a subset of Sindhi...
> > -- There are many cognates for a word. It picks distinct cognates for
> > Seraiki and Sindhi for no apparent reason. 'jaidad' is also in
> > standard Sindhi word in common use with the same meaning.
>
> Jaedad is simply a Persian word which was borrowed by many languages of
> the sub-continent. It can be found in Urdu and is understood by Hindi
> speakers as well, so what's your point? The comparison should be
> between the real Sindhi vs. the real Siraiki words. So, for example,
> Punjabi says "unhan vichon", Siraiki says "unhan vichchun", yet Sindhi
> says "tin maan" for "among them". There are other examples like this in
Yes, sure "jaedad" is a persian word, and it appears in all of Sindhi,
Punjabi and Siraiki, and always subsumes the meaning of "maal".
Choosing one word over another was a completely arbitrary decision
made by the translator, and hence the differences or similarities it
shows between languages are not representative of the actual
differences or similarities.
Similarly, "unhan vichon" is a Sindhi phrase too, and it means, "from
between those"; "tin maan" means "from among which". Sindhi has a
distinction between "between" and "among"; I believe Siraiki does
too. In a bad translation to Sindhi, "among" could easily have been
translated to "vichon", as it has been for Siraiki. The difference
between "tin" and "unhan" is that of "which" and "those". But I don't
pretend to be an expert, and there must be many other intricacies that
only experts would be able to understand.
> the samples too. So, what does it seem like to you? Incidentally, that
> story goes on for several more paragraphs, and consistently the Siraiki
> is more like the Punjabi than Sindhi. Now, I have no agenda or interest
> in proving this to be true, it's just the facts. I love desi languages,
> so I entered this debate, but I don't really care whether you call it
> Siraiki, Punjabi, Sindhi, or Martian. Got it?
It's great that you like desi languages, and for all I care even
Martian may look more like Siraiki to you. The important thing is that
you are presenting your ignorant observations as evidence for
something, but facts seem to show that you're wrong. No one is
claiming you have any agenda... you just don't have a clue :)
cheers!
Nadeem
Amitabh Hajela
>
> You didn't say to substitute your opinion with that of experts, but
> you did imply that others can make a decision based on that one para,
> as you did, which would clearly be a naive judgement. It would take a
> pretentious idiot to give much weight to a decision so arrived.
Yes, I asked others to read those samples and decide for themselves
based on whetever evidence was put in front of them. Whether or not
that evidence was sufficient or not is a matter of opinion. I decided
my opinion not only that one para, but on the whole story, plus the
other samples of Siraiki and Sindhi found in Grierson. Also, you're
pre-emptively labelling as pretentious idiots all those who would read
the samples and come to a conclusion (not that I consider them as
pretentious idiots). You should be thankful I entered this debate,
since before I did, eveyone was talking about "Sindhi" and "Siraiki" as
mere abstracts, there was no substance or "meat" in the debate. That
got added by the samples, which at least presented to the readers (who
may consist of the four or five people in the world who even care about
this little debate, but that's another story...) the languages
themselves! Errors may exist, I admit. But I worked with what I had.
> >
> > Would any of that have made the Siraiki seem closer to the Sindhi?
>
> Yes, for one thing, replacing many of the d's, j's, b's etc. with
> dd's, jj's etc. to represent the fact that they are implosives in
> Siraiki, will itself make a big difference. Sindhi and Siraiki have
> implosives and Punjabi doesn't. See? There is a reason why it takes
> experts to make such decisions. I'll look up Grierson again, but the
> last time I checked, I'm pretty sure I saw a mention of evidence of
> closer relationship between Sindhi and Siraiki... but that book
> was also published long ago (first in the 1920's?)
OK, first - I wrote the samples the way they were in Grierson, I did not
leave out or add any extra 'd's, 'j's or anything. Second - Yes, Sindhi
and Siraiki do share the implosives, and many other features, I'm not
denying that. Naturally, neighboring languages which derive from the
same source will have things in common. And of course, Multan,
Bahawalpur, etc. being closer to Sindh than Amritsar/Lahore are will be
relatively closer to Sindhi than Punjabi is. I think the main point is,
that Punjabi and Siraiki still share more in common with each other than
either does with Sindhi, though undoubtedly Siraiki is closer to Sindhi
than Punjabi is to Sindhi. Third - Grierson is potentially outdated,
but he classifies Siraiki as being within Lahnda, which he calls Western
Punjabi. But yes, he classifies Lahnda as being more close to Sindhi
than to Eastern Punjabi (what he calls simply "Punjabi"). Other
linguists may disagree.
> Not that it would be too scientific, but perhaps you could list all
> the similarities and differences you see in the passages. A simple
> grammatical distinction that's clear from the passage is how the word
> "nandhay" in Sindhi and Siraiki converts to two words "nandhay nay" in
> Panjabi. So in Punjabi you seem to need to say <noun> did <verb>,
> whereas in Sindhi and Siraiki, one says <noun> <verb>.
See above. YES, there are features in which Siraiki shows agreement
with Sindhi, and differs from Punjabi. But there are MORE cases where
the opposite happens. For ex. Punjabi and Siraiki use 'da' for
possession, 'do/dun' for 'two', 'nun/kun' for 'to', 'akhia/akhea' for
'said', 'atte' for 'and', 'piche' for 'after', 'apna' for 'his own',
'ditta' as the past tense of 'gave', 'vich' for 'in, among', and also
had two phrases virtually identical word for word - "..sab kuj kattha
kar ke.." and "..sab kuj kharch kar ditta..".
Similarities between Sindhi and Siraiki were the following - the
implosives, use of the word 'nandhe', and 'thian/thiwan laggo/laggea'
for 'began to be'. You're right, they don't use the word 'ne' like
Punjabi does ('chotte ne'), and there may well be other grammatical
features in the samples which show similarity between the two languages,
and distinctiveness from Punjabi. Please point them out.
Punjabi and Siraiki both use words like 'naal', 'kol', 'ton', 'utte',
and 'vichch', which may not exist in Sindhi. Do they?
> Not that it should matter, but I'll add that I can understand most of
> Siraiki and have had conversations with people while they were
> speaking Siraiki and I Sindhi. Even Punjabi is pretty comprehensible
> to me though Punjabi speakers usually haven't understood Sindhi at all
> as easily. Now, I don't have the arrogance to go around telling people
> that Punjabi is mostly a subset of Sindhi...
Who can understand what is the most subjective measure in the world
(I'll resist making any comments about pretentious idiots). Mutual
intelligibility boils down to who's doing the talking, who's doing the
listening. Also, you may understand Punjabi because you also know Urdu,
which is obviously closely related to Punjabi. The real test is if a
non-Urdu understanding Sindhi could follow Punjabi. To some extent the
similarities between Punjabi and Sindhi may have played a factor, OR
you're linguistically gifted, OR you didn't understand as much as you
thought you did OR the Punjabi you heard was a heavily Urduized version
spoken by Pakistanis and not as distinct from Urdu/Hindi as Punjabi in
an Indian Punjabi village is.
> Similarly, "unhan vichon" is a Sindhi phrase too, and it means, "from
> between those"; "tin maan" means "from among which". Sindhi has a
> distinction between "between" and "among"; I believe Siraiki does
> too. In a bad translation to Sindhi, "among" could easily have been
> translated to "vichon", as it has been for Siraiki. The difference
> between "tin" and "unhan" is that of "which" and "those". But I don't
> pretend to be an expert, and there must be many other intricacies that
> only experts would be able to understand.
Come on, who do think you're messing with? (I fully expect a rude
answer to that). I know exactly what you're talking about, and you're
completely wrong. I'll tell you why - we have the same thing in Hindi
that you're mentioning for Sindhi; we too can say 'unke BEECH mein',
which means 'from between those'. But, our (Hindi) equivalent of the
Punjabi "unhan vichon' is 'un mein se', NOT 'unke beech mein'. 'Un mein
se', 'Unhan vichon', and 'tin maan' are equivalents in Hindi, Punjabi,
and Sindhi, respectively. However, the Hindi and Sindhi words using
'beech' or 'vich', while equivalent to each other, are not the same as
'vich' in Punjabi. The Sindhi 'maan' and 'mein' are related to Hindi
'mein', Punjabi has no 'mein', it has 'vich'. Siraiki uses 'vich' in
the Punjabi way, not the Sindhi/Hindi way.
>
> It's great that you like desi languages, and for all I care even
> Martian may look more like Siraiki to you. The important thing is that
> you are presenting your ignorant observations as evidence for
> something, but facts seem to show that you're wrong. No one is
> claiming you have any agenda... you just don't have a clue :)
Well, so you say. That's your opinion, I think your ideas concerning
this language issue, though heartfelt, are even more clueless. However,
it's common on these ng's to ignore the evidence one doesn't want to
see, I may be doing the same thing. My observations are neither
ignorant nor being presented as evidence for anything, they're just my
observations. Now, what do you say?
Nadeem Jamali
Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> writes:
> mere abstracts, there was no substance or "meat" in the debate. That
I don't like meat... tofu is just fine :)
> but he classifies Siraiki as being within Lahnda, which he calls Western
> Punjabi. But yes, he classifies Lahnda as being more close to Sindhi
> than to Eastern Punjabi (what he calls simply "Punjabi"). Other
> linguists may disagree.
...
So, it's settled then. We both agree that your opinions are your
opinions. Griersen agrees that Siraiki belongs to Lahnda class, which
is closer to Sindhi than it is to Punjab... let's talk again when
you've found more meat.
`
cheers!
Nadeem
Gurupdesh Singh
In article <34BE5AB3...@austin.ibm.com>, "M. Ranjit Mathews" <ran...@austin.ibm.com> wrote:
>Amitabh Hajela wrote:
>
>> On the debate about Siraiki, and whether it's closer to Sindhi or
>> can decide if they think Siraiki is more like Sindhi or Punjabi, but to
>> me, it seems more like Punjabi.
>
>Punjabi vocabulary. According to him, Sindhi, Siraiki, Lahnda, Hind Ko,etc. are
>derived from the same apabrahmsa called Vrachda whereas
>Punjabi is descended from another apabrahmsa called Takka.
You mean one day Brahmins visited every village in Punjab from the Indus
to the Jamuna and began teaching the people how to speak
"Takka" or "apabrahmsa"! Prior to this they must have been on a
centuries old "mon-vrut" and used sign language for communication!
Also, when did this linguistic expedition from Gangaland occur.
We known from the RigVeda (written in Punjab region) that they did not
have good relations with "dasus" from the south (e.g. Gangaland).
Similarly, Manu Smriti - a highly respected "Brahmin Law Giver" -
from Gangasthan "forbids Brahmins to visit Punjab". Similarly,
the Mahabharta (a non-Punjabi Puranic text) also expresses
similar hostility to the Vedic peoples of Saptha Sindhva.
Neo-Brahmanists need to learn some elementary principles
of linguistics and how languages evolve and spread before
making their perpetual hegemonic claims on southasian languages/
culture/religions/etc.
Gul Agha
> > Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> wrote (I presume since I
wasn't really keeping track):
> > > ... People
> > > can decide if they think Siraiki is more like Sindhi or Punjabi
> > > but to me, it seems more like Punjabi.
Gul Agha responded:
> > Only a pretentious idiot would substitute his or her naive judgement,
> > based on one paragraph at that, for that of scientists who spent their
> > professional life in the well developed discipline of linguistics and
> > have conducted careful studies.
> > Amitabh Hajela <aha...@eclipse.net> then claims:
> Well, firstly, I never said my opinion was a substitute for those of any
> "scientists", it was simply my impression from the examples.
> Secondly,
> thanks for calling me an idiot, butthead. Did you learn that from
> Sachal Sarmast?
So Mr. Hajela, I conclude that you are:
1. not a "pretentious idiot", though perhaps you were merely asking
others to be by deciding for themselves based on a single para.
2. you could improve your inference ability, since you concluded I
implied you an "idiot" while you weren't taking his own invitation and
making a "decision" as you advised others to do. I made a conditional
assertion..
3. you are vulgar and could learn some manners.
I shall therefore ignore further correspondence..
Peace,
Gul Agha
PunjabDaPut (SonOfPunjab)
stock. They are thus a nation, whether colonized by the empire of
Pakistan or the empire of England or Punjab. Sindi people have their
own culture, history, language, and racial stock. They are thus a
nation, whether colonized by the empire of Pakistan or the empire of
England or Punjab.
So let Seraikistan and Sindhu Desh become independent sovereign
nations, so Punjabis can work on National unity for themselves, which
has not been possible because of being busy getting distracted by the
temptation of exploitation through imperialism, colonialism, and
capitalism on the basis of the primitive stupidity and superstition
that religion is, whether Islam, Sikhism, or Hinduism.