A Reclassification of the Occitan Language

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Bob

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 09:49:1804/09/2011
à
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-reclassification-of-the-occitan-language/

Hello, I wrote this a while back and recently gave it an extensive
update. I reanalyzed Occitan from the 1 language stated by Ethnologue
(after propaganda by Occitanists) to 14 different languages.

Actually, I was quite conservative about splitting off languages, and
I still got 14! The sole criterion for splitting languages was mutual
intelligibility. I want intelligibility of >90%.

I'm not really interested in an argument about whether languages were
split off or not. I have evidence of intelligibility differences that
some faced, and that's good enough for me. There will always be people
who say that they can understand every Occitan tongue out there.

What I would be interested in instead is feedback on internal
classification. I made some sui generis classifications that might
interest you.

Merging some Gavot dialects with Transalpine Provencal.

Creation of a Nissard Occitan language which includes Mentonasque,
etc.

Splitting off Alpine Provencal (Gavot) and Dauphine Provencal from the
rest of Provencal.

Splitting off Croissant as a separate language.

Splitting off Pyrenean Gascon from Gascon proper.

The creation of Guyennais as a dialect removed from
Gascon and Provencal but with uncertain relationship to Limousin-
Auvergnat (I cannot yet split it off).

Denial of any Catalan-Occitan language, even in transitional areas.

Placing of some interesting borders between dialects and languages and
characterization of some interesting transitional dialects and
languages.

As is obvious, I oppose Occitanist centralizing tendencies.

I would be interested in feedback, polite of course.

Un gascon

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 10:02:3204/09/2011
à
Gascon could rather be separated into 2 languages : East-Gascon and
West-Gascon separated by many isoglossic lines which reflect the
contradictory influences of Toulouse and Bordeaux. In the East,
vocalism is common to Languedocian, vocabulary as well and
conjugation. Pyrenean Gascon is just a more conservative variant of
this domain, mostly for grammar, vocabulary and some phonetic traits.
In the West, Gascon is something else with many original traits
phonetically wise : the centre of this domain is the Landes where
"Black Gascon" is spoken.

The line dividing West-Gascon from East-Gascon unites Orthez and
Marmande.

As for Languedocian, dialects spoken in Toulousain, Aude and Ariège
deserve being lumped into a single language dubbed "Ibero-
Languedocian" : it's a vast transitional area inbetween proper "Oc"
dialects from the Massif Central (as far south as Albigeois) and
Catalan dialects, noted for its Iberian-rooted phonetics.

Éole

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 10:21:4904/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 15:49, Bob <lindsay.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-reclassification-of-t...

>
> Hello, I wrote this a while back and recently gave it an extensive
> update. I reanalyzed Occitan from the 1 language stated by Ethnologue
> (after propaganda by Occitanists) to 14 different languages.
>
> Actually, I was quite conservative about splitting off languages, and
> I still got 14! The sole criterion for splitting languages was mutual
> intelligibility. I want intelligibility of >90%.
>
> I'm not really interested in an argument about whether languages were
> split off or not. I have evidence of intelligibility differences that
> some faced, and that's good enough for me. There will always be people
> who say that they can understand every Occitan tongue out there.
>
> What I would be interested in instead is feedback on internal
> classification. I made some sui generis classifications that might
> interest you.
>
> Merging some Gavot dialects with Transalpine Provencal.
>
> Creation of a Nissard Occitan language which includes Mentonasque,
> etc.
>
> Splitting off Alpine Provencal (Gavot) and Dauphine Provencal from the
> rest of Provencal.
>
> Splitting off Croissant as a separate language.
>
> Splitting off Pyrenean Gascon from Gascon proper.
>
> The creation of Guyennais as a dialect removed from
> Gascon and Provencal but with uncertain relationship to Limousin-
> Auvergnat (I cannot yet split it off).

Mais pourquoi hésiter ? C'est bien en une quarantaine de langues de
plein exercice que vous devriez diviser l'occitan, voyons.

Beowulf

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 10:33:5404/09/2011
à

l'aubernhat o pas res a beire ame lou lemousi !

Bob

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 10:40:4204/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 07:02, Un gascon <un.gas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gascon Could rather be separated into 2 languages: East-Gascon and
> West-Gascon separated by lines Many isoglossic Which Reflect the

> contradictory influences of Toulouse and Bordeaux. In the East,
> vocalism IS common to Languedocian, and vocabulary as well
> conjugation. Pyrenean Gascon IS just a more conservative variant of
> this domain, Mostly for grammar, vocabulary and phonetic Some traits.
> In the West, Gascon IS Something Else with Many original features
> phonetically wise: the center of this domain is the Land Where
> "Black Gascon" is spoken.

Pyrenean Gascon was split since it's recognized that it's hard to
understand outside of the mountains, even on the plains. You yourself
say you find Bearnese hard to hear sometimes.

> The line dividing East from West-Gascon Gascon-Orthez and units
> Marmande.

Can this East and West Gascon understand each other with no problems?
>
> As for Languedocian, dialects spoken in Toulouse, Aude and Ariège
> Being lumped Into deserve a single language dubbed "Ibero-
> Languedocian ": it's large-area in between transitional proper" Oc "
> dialects from the Massif Central (as far south as Albigenses) and
> Catalan dialects, ITS Noted for Iberian-rooted phonetics.

Yes, I agree to a split of Ibero-Languedocien from Toulouse, Aude and
Airege, but then where over to the coast? I would include the
Fenouillet and Leucate.

What of the Corbieres, Carcassone and Narbonne? Are they part of this
Ibero-Languedocien?

Bob

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 10:47:4004/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 07:02, Un gascon <un.gas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gascon Could rather be separated into 2 languages: East-Gascon and
> West-Gascon separated by lines Many isoglossic Which Reflect the

> contradictory influences of Toulouse and Bordeaux. In the East,
> vocalism IS common to Languedocian, and vocabulary as well
> conjugation. Pyrenean Gascon IS just a more conservative variant of
> this domain, Mostly for grammar, vocabulary and phonetic Some traits.
> In the West, Gascon IS Something Else with Many original features
> phonetically wise: the center of this domain is the Land Where
> "Black Gascon" is spoken.

Pyrenean needs to be split because it is so hard to understand, even
on the plains. Even you say you have a hard time with Bearnais.


>
> The line dividing East from West-Gascon Gascon-Orthez and units
> Marmande.

Can this East and West Gascon understand each other without problems?


>
> As for Languedocian, dialects spoken in Toulouse, Aude and Ariège

> Being lumped Into deserve a single language dubbed "Ibero-
> Languedocian ": it's large-area inbetween transitional proper" Oc "


> dialects from the Massif Central (as far south as Albigenses) and
> Catalan dialects, ITS Noted for Iberian-rooted phonetics.

Yes, and what of the Fenouillines and Leucate? I put them there too.

What of Carcassone and Narbonne? Are they also part of Ibero-
Languedocien?

Éole

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 11:13:0204/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 16:02, Un gascon <un.gas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gascon could rather be separated into 2 languages : East-Gascon and
> West-Gascon

C'est clair, entre Gelos et Artix l'intercompréhension est
pratiquement impossible.

Beowulf

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 11:18:2604/09/2011
à
Auvergnat is neighbour with provençal, very good comprehension, the
same conjugations
and very far of limousin
which has very different conjugations and vocabulary

Un gascon

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 11:27:0504/09/2011
à
L'intercompréhension est un critère non-opérant : il y a partout
intercompréhension de proche en proche. Même entre oïl et oc, il y a
toujours tel ou tel village qui a développé tel ou tel parler de
transition. Même entre gascon et saintongeais.

Yhi

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 12:02:1404/09/2011
à

Auvergnat is very far FROM Limousin but closer to Provençal and Alpin
lol

Yhi

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 12:12:3204/09/2011
à

There's nothing more annoying than a guy who doesn't even care
introducing himself giving lessons to true speakers as Un gascon would
say.
Intercomprehension is no criterion at all. Morphology is the only
means to determine homogeneous linguistic areas.
Who are you ?
Where do you live ?
What are you doing this for ?
Are you a linguist ?
What do you know about "Langue d'oc" ?

Éole

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 12:22:3804/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 16:33, Beowulf <jfblan...@yahoo.fr> wrote:

> l'aubernhat o pas res a beire ame lou lemousi !

Pour des raisons qui m'échappent, vous tenez à ne rien avoir affaire
avec les Limousins. Rassurez-vous, c'est sans doute réciproque.

Bob

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 13:06:0404/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 09:12, Yhi <duckbilled.platy...@laposte.net> wrote:
> It is September 4, 17:27, A Gascon <un.gas...@ Gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The understanding is a standard non-operating: there are around
> > Mutual understanding gradually. Even between oil and oc, there
> > Always a particular village that has developed a particular mention
> > Transition. Even between Gascon and Saintonge.

Rude comment, but will respond to some.
>
> There's nothing more annoying Than Even a guy who does not care
> Introducing Himself Giving lessons to speakers as a true Gascon Would
> say.

Linguists do not necessarily speak the languages we study. We just
study languages. We don't necessarily speak them. Nor is a speaker
qualified to do much analysis.

> Intercomprehension Is No Criterion at all. Is the only Morphology
> Means determined to homogeneous linguistic Areas.

In fact, intelligibility is the only criterion that makes any kind of
sense at all. When you throw that out, you throw out the dialect-
language terms as scientific terms. We can even study intelligibility
with good scientific tools now, with good results. This is science.

Really we speak of the same thing. What makes a language are serious
differences in phonology, morphology and syntax. Where you have strong
differences in such things, you have comprehension problems too. So
the two things go right together as we might expect.

> Who are you?

Bonjour monsieur, I am Robert Lindsay.

> Where do you live?

I live in California.

> What are you doing this for?

As a linguist, this is one of my hobbies. This is my idea of fun, a
good time.

> Are you a linguist? Well, I have an MA in Linguistics and I have worked in a paid job as a linguist-anthropologist for an Indian tribe. So I say I am a linguist.

> What do you know about "Langue d'oc"?

I know just what I have written in that piece. J'aime your country,
and thank you for introducing me to it.

Yhi

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 14:11:0904/09/2011
à

I am a linguist too (doctorat de linguistique française et générale)
and a speaker of limousin.
I don't aim at disqualifying you as a linguist but you know, there are
so many "humbugs" on the net.
If you simply intend to have fun with languages, just do as you like.
I would say I'm "on the side" of lumbers rather than splitters.
Dealing with occitan, I admit there are many phonetical, lexical and
even morphological variants that is to say "dialects" but you seem to
reject the notion of "dialect-languages".
In my opinion, whether a dialect of occitan is a language in itself or
not is almost an unsolvable issue.
Have you ever heard of dialectometry ?

Bob

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 14:35:0604/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 11:11, Yhi <duckbilled.platy...@laposte.net> wrote:
> It is September 4, 19:06, Bob <lindsay.rob...@ Gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On September 4, 9:12, YHI <duckbilled.platy...@ Laposte.net> wrote:
>
> >> It Is September 4, 17:27, A Gascon <un.gas...gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> The understanding Is A standard non-operating: There are around
> >>> Mutual understanding gradually. Even Between oil and oc, There
> >>> Always a town That Particular Particular mention was Developed HAS
> >>> Transition. Even Between Gascon and Saintonge.
>
> > How Rude, Will Respond to order some.
>
> >> There's nothing more annoying Than Even a Guy Who Does not Care

> >> Introducing Himself Giving lessons to speakers as a true Gascon Would
> >> Say.
>
> > Linguists do not speak the languages ​​we Necessarily study. We just
> > Study languages. We Do not Necessarily 'em speak. Nor IS a speaker
> > Qualified to do much analysis.
>
> >> Is No Criterion Intercomprehension at all. Is the only Morphology
> >> Means Determined to homogeneous linguistic Areas.
>
> > In Fact, Is the only Criterion INTELLIGIBILITY That Makes Any kind of
> > Sense at all. When you throw out That, you throw out the dialect-
> > Language terms as scientific terms. We Can Even INTELLIGIBILITY study
> > Good with scientific tools now, with Good results. This is science.
>
> > Really we speak of the Same Thing. What makes a language are serious
> > Differences in phonology, morphology and syntax. Where You Have strong
> > Differences in Such Thing, You Have Problems understanding too. So
> > The Two Things go right together as we expect Might.
>
> >> Who are you?
>
> > Hello sir, I am Robert Lindsay.

>
> >> Where do you live?
>
> > I live in California.
>
> >> What are you doing this for?
>
> > As a linguist, then this is one of my hobbies. This is my idea of ​​fun, a
> > Good time.
>
> >> Are you a linguist? Well, I have an MA in Linguistics and I Have Paid WORKED in a job as a linguist-anthropologist for an Indian tribe. So I say I am a linguist.

> >> What do you know about "Langue d'oc"?
>
> > I know just What I Have Written in That piece. I love your country,
> > And thank you for Introducing me to it.
>
> I too am a linguist (PhD in French linguistics and general)
> and a speaker of Limousin.
> I do not have AIM at disqualifying you order a linguist you know, There Are
> so many "Humbug" on the net.
> If you INTEND Simply to have fun with languages, just do as you like.
> I would say I'm "on the side" of Lumbers Rather Than splitters.
> Dealing with Occitan, I admitted phonetical There are Many, and lexical
> Even morphological variants That Is to say "dialects" But You Seem To
> reject the notion of "dialect-languages."
> In my opinion, whether a dialect of Occitan language in Itself Is A gold
> Almost a year IS not unsolvable issue.
> Have You Ever Heard Of dialectometry?

As you can see, I am a splitter and not a lumper. This is really a
political question I think, like the Right or the Left. No simple
scientific solutions, matter of personal preference.

With Occitan, I am both splitting and lumping. Take a mass of
dialects, a mess. What to do? Make a casserole? No. Analysis.

I lump many, many of them into discrete units based on shared
commonality. Even inside of these, there can much variability, but
there is some core essence that ties them.

At some point, the differences become so vast and dramatic that a
split is really called for. There is where we most reluctantly make a
split, trying for a nice, discrete unit.

This is just a pilot study, intended to produce criticism, further
study, more theory, etc. It is not the last word on anything.

The problem as you state it is that Linguistics, a so called science,
has decided, insanely, that there is no way that linguistic science
can determine what is a language and what is a dialect. As if with
California English and Midwest English, we could not scientifically
prove that they are dialects, and as if, with Ket and Warlpiri, we
could not scientifically prove that they are two languages. I suppose
we could as well say that Ket is a dialect of Warlpiri, or of English,
or Warlpiri is a dialect of Cherokee.

This why the hard sciences hate us so much. We are not scientists.
Many questions in our world actually do have good solutions. The soft
joke sciences like ours decide that nothing can be proven, so
therefore nothing in our field is true or false. It's pitiful that
such nihilists call themselves scientists at all. Truly.

The dialect language question is clearly solvable. Saying that it is a
political question is leaving the question up to sociopaths,
pathological liars and the worst scum of all humanity, the
politicians, who even claim to have a science to study their own
sociopaths.

Clearly, linguistic science can clearly that in the case of many
varieties, say Ket and Igbo, we deal with two separate languages. In
the case of Morales Spanish and Jalisco Spanish, we deal with two
dialects of a single language, let us call it Spanish for now.

See how simple this is. There are many solutions to these problems.

Then there are many hard cases too, we must admit.

But many of these cases can be solved too. In Mexico, Ethnologue uses
scientific study to determine languages from dialects. Languages are
split at <90% intelligibility. Dialects remain at >90%
intelligibility. We have good scientific testing mechanisms to
determine these things.

Sure there are many cases where we have to throw up our hands. We have
to break the rules sometimes. I call Ibero Languedocien and Catalan
two separate languages (since one is clearly Occitan and the other is
clearly Catalan) but still, they can understand each other. Auvergnat
can understand the Correzese Limousin, but little else, and we can
still divide Limousin from Auvergnat.

We do not just use intelligibility, but intelligibility combined with
structural analysis.

Analysis shows us there are two things, Catalan and Occitan, even if
part of the latter can understand the former.

Analysis shows that there are two things, Limousin and Auvergnat, even
if the latter can understand part of the former.

Where we have unsolvable dilemmas, we choose the most conservative
solution. So I leave Guyennais a dialect of Limousin because I can't
figure any other solution.

Classification will always be more art than science. It's not
mathematics, and it never will be.

Of course I have heard of dialectology. What do you think I study most
of my time, often in a foreign language, lately French?

Giboudan

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 14:56:4604/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 20:11, Yhi <duckbilled.platy...@laposte.net> wrote:


>
> I am a linguist too (doctorat de linguistique française et générale)

It is not the thrue. He is a poor stupid informatician
and he is born in austria.

Éole

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 15:01:1804/09/2011
à

Et vous, vous faites de la retape pour le FN: "C'est le seul parti qui
s'opposent aux atrocités comminses [sic] par les
envahisseurs en Libye.

Au moins par solidarité avec les Libyens.

C'est la seule raison de voter FN
avec le retour à la monnaie nationale."

Message de 12 h 42 (aujourd'hui), dans le fil "Si je me déplace au
bureau de vote", sur frsp.

Et après vous n'êtes pas fasciste.

Giboudan

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 15:05:4804/09/2011
à

bin non justement. Je combats vos amis fascistes qui font ça :

http://mistralenc.over-blog.com/article-dinc-uno-occitanie-independento-nous-four-ariou-de-manja-de-char-umano-83300736.html

http://mistralenc.over-blog.com/

et Marine Le Pen es pel moument lou soul candidat que s'oupauso a-n-
aquelo barbario.
Es dounc anti-fascisto

Éole

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 15:32:4304/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 21:05, Giboudan <sergegibou...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
> On 4 sep, 21:01, Éole <eol...@lavache.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4 sep, 20:56, Giboudan <sergegibou...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > > On 4 sep, 20:11, Yhi <duckbilled.platy...@laposte.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I am a linguist too (doctorat de linguistique française et générale)
>
> > > It is not the thrue. He is a poor stupid informatician
> > > and he is born in austria.
>
> > Et vous, vous faites de la retape pour le FN: "C'est le seul parti qui
> > s'opposent aux atrocités comminses [sic] par les
> > envahisseurs en Libye.
>
> > Au moins par solidarité avec les Libyens.
>
> > C'est la seule raison de voter FN
> > avec le retour à la monnaie nationale."
>
> > Message de 12 h 42 (aujourd'hui), dans le fil "Si je me déplace au
> > bureau de vote", sur frsp.
>
> > Et après vous n'êtes pas fasciste.
>
> bin non justement. Je combats vos amis fascistes qui font ça :
>
> http://mistralenc.over-blog.com/article-dinc-uno-occitanie-independen...

>
> http://mistralenc.over-blog.com/
>
> et Marine Le Pen es pel moument lou soul candidat que s'oupauso a-n-
> aquelo barbario.
> Es dounc anti-fascisto

C'est un raisonnement d'amibe.

Joan Francés Blanc (jfblanc@gmail.com)

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 16:00:5204/09/2011
à
Hi Bob,

Not surprisingly I should disagree with you. But your updated blog post is a long long text, so I'll just underline here a couple of things.

1. Ethnologue did not change its mind due to "Occitanist propaganda". The previous version was the result of some anti-occitanist propaganda led by Professor Blanchet (with typical lies like "Occitanie is an invention of the late XVIIIth century" - and we have now evidence in print books of this word in 1644 and 1647). The "5 languages" statement of old Ethnologue was refusing to consider the existence of vivaroalpine which is a point of view shared by Blanchet and some historical occitanists like Robert Lafont.

2. What are your "witnesses" about intelligibility between local variations of Occitan? They seem to be just people eager to have their say on newsgroups or forums. Do you think they are reliable? unbiased? Any true evidence (synchronic phonological or phonetical comparisons?)

3. About the old "unity" of Occitan and Catalan, it's also more a belief than a truth. And so I'm quite surprised you consider it as a mere truth. Recent or not so recent works have proven the variation of Occitan to be very old, dating from the very beginning of the formation of the Romance languages (around the VIth Century AD). Just check Chambon & Greub.

That's all for tonight. I'll take some additional time to read the whole 47 pages and comment them.

Regards,

JF Blanc

kwy

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 16:35:5104/09/2011
à

Ethnisme basique.

Giboudan

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 16:38:4404/09/2011
à


Nous avons des conjugaisons tellement différentes que nous ne nous
comprenons pas.
Le limousin a tout un vocabulaire spécifique.
La phonétique est en outre totalement différente.

Giboudan

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 16:39:4504/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 22:00, Joan Francés Blanc (jfbl...@gmail.com)
<jfbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

n to be very old, dating from the very beginning of the formation of
the Romance languages (around the VIth Century AD). Just check Chambon
& Greub.
>
> That's all for tonight. I'll take some additional time to read the whole 47 pages and comment them.
>
> Regards,
>
> JF Blanc

WARNING !

Jean-François Blanc is a representant of "occitan" separatisme and
antisemitism.

Éole

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 16:39:5904/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 22:35, kwy <k...@spamfree.fr> wrote:

Oui, mais pourquoi avec les Provençaux ça marche dans l'autre sens ?
Ah oui, bien sûr, Mistral... Que je suis bête !

kwy

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 16:47:4304/09/2011
à

Parole de coyote.

kwy

non lue,
4 sept. 2011, 16:48:0504/09/2011
à

Ethnisme basique.

Éole

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 02:43:1705/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 22:38, Giboudan <sergegibou...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
> On 4 sep, 22:35, kwy <k...@spamfree.fr> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:22:38 -0700, Éole wrote:
> > > On 4 sep, 16:33, Beowulf <jfblan...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > >> l'aubernhat o pas res a beire ame lou lemousi !
>
> > > Pour des raisons qui m'échappent, vous tenez à ne rien avoir affaire
> > > avec les Limousins. Rassurez-vous, c'est sans doute réciproque.
>
> > Ethnisme basique.
>
> Nous avons des conjugaisons tellement différentes que nous ne nous
> comprenons pas.

Les conjugaisons ressortissent au modèle occitan général. Seul le
gascon a des conjugaisons *vraiment* différentes, M. Gourgaud.

Judex

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 03:13:0705/09/2011
à


Las counjugasous lemousinos sou plo diferentos del moudel genera,
senhe Gonzalès.
(las counjugasous coumengesos sou counformos al moudel genera, amai se
lou Coumenge es en Gascounho)

lou lemousi : auve, auvas, auvo, auven, auvès, auven

ame sa premiero persouno del plura pariero a la tresenco es
coumpletament diferent de la counjugasou aubernhato !

ougisse, ougisses, ougi, ougissan, ougissat, ougissou.

Se sabiat la lengo d'oc
se l'abiat pas descouberto en terminalo
ou saupriat


lemousi : parlen aubernhat : parlou

lemousin : fazian, faziaz, fazian

aubernhat : fazion, faziat faziou

lemousi : chanteren, chanterés, chanteren

aubernhat : chanteran, chanterat, chantèrou


la counjugasou lemousi es especifico
la counjugasou aubernhato es quasimen la memo coumo en proubença.


Éole

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 03:23:0505/09/2011
à
On 5 sep, 09:13, Judex <hyenecre...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
> On 5 sep, 08:43, Éole <eol...@lavache.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4 sep, 22:38, Giboudan <sergegibou...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > > On 4 sep, 22:35, kwy <k...@spamfree.fr> wrote:
>
> > > > On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 09:22:38 -0700, Éole wrote:
> > > > > On 4 sep, 16:33, Beowulf <jfblan...@yahoo.fr> wrote:
>
> > > > >> l'aubernhat o pas res a beire ame lou lemousi !
>
> > > > > Pour des raisons qui m'échappent, vous tenez à ne rien avoir affaire
> > > > > avec les Limousins. Rassurez-vous, c'est sans doute réciproque.
>
> > > > Ethnisme basique.
>
> > > Nous avons des conjugaisons tellement différentes que nous ne nous
> > > comprenons pas.
>
> > Les conjugaisons ressortissent au modèle occitan général. Seul le
> > gascon a des conjugaisons *vraiment* différentes, M. Gourgaud.
>
> Las counjugasous lemousinos sou plo diferentos del moudel genera,
> senhe Gonzalès.
> (las counjugasous coumengesos sou counformos al moudel genera, amai se
> lou Coumenge es en Gascounho)
>
> lou lemousi : auve, auvas, auvo, auven, auvès, auven
>
> ame sa premiero persouno del plura pariero a la tresenco es
> coumpletament diferent de la counjugasou aubernhato !
>
> ougisse, ougisses, ougi, ougissan, ougissat, ougissou.

Soit.

> Se sabiat la lengo d'oc
> se l'abiat pas descouberto en terminalo
> ou saupriat

Quand on écrut "lous Blanc" on est mal placé pour parlé comme ça, vous
savez.

> lemousi : parlen   aubernhat : parlou

Et alors ? "Parlou" représente un ancien "pàrloun", forme qui existe
aussi en limousin !

> lemousin : fazian, faziaz, fazian
>
> aubernhat : fazion, faziat faziou

C'est bien le même modèle de conjugaison en -eba > -ea > -ia. On ne
peut même pas parler de différences de prononciation, "an" est
toujours prononcé "on" en auvergnat mais c'est la même désinence, que
"tz" se prononce [s] en limousin et [t] en auvergnat est un problème
bien différent, de même pour la 3ème personne du pluriel.

> lemousi : chanteren, chanterés, chanteren
>
> aubernhat : chanteran, chanterat, chantèrou

Et vous appelez ça des conjugaisons complètement différentes ?

Vous venez au contraire de démontrer qu'il s'agit des mêmes
conjugaisons, avec des différences minimes.

omedoc

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 10:09:3605/09/2011
à
On 04/09/2011 20:35, Bob wrote:
> On 4 sep, 11:11, Yhi<duckbilled.platy...@laposte.net> wrote:

>> I too am a linguist (PhD in French linguistics and general)
>> and a speaker of Limousin.
>> I do not have AIM at disqualifying you order a linguist you know, There Are
>> so many "Humbug" on the net.
>> If you INTEND Simply to have fun with languages, just do as you like.
>> I would say I'm "on the side" of Lumbers Rather Than splitters.
>> Dealing with Occitan, I admitted phonetical There are Many, and lexical
>> Even morphological variants That Is to say "dialects" But You Seem To
>> reject the notion of "dialect-languages."
>> In my opinion, whether a dialect of Occitan language in Itself Is A gold
>> Almost a year IS not unsolvable issue.
>> Have You Ever Heard Of dialectometry?

> [snip]


> Of course I have heard of dialectology. What do you think I study most
> of my time, often in a foreign language, lately French?

Hello Bob,

It seems you missed a point from Yhi: he was talking about dialectometry
and NOT dialectology.

Dialectometry is a very interesting way to measure the linguistic
distance between multiple points of survey.
And Hans Goebl, for instance, has made very interesting studies on Occitan.

Regards,
Damien Desaygues

Bob

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 10:34:0305/09/2011
à
On 5 sep, 07:09, omedoc <occitan.li...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We 04.09.2011 20:35, Bob wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On September 4, 11:11, YHI <duckbilled.platy...@ Laposte.net> wrote:
> >> I too am a linguist (PhD in French linguistics and general)
> >> And a speaker of Limousin.
> >> I do not Have AIM did you order disqualifying a linguist you know, There Are
> >> So many "Humbug" on the net.

> >> If you INTEND Simply to have fun with languages, just do as you like.
> >> I would say I'm "on the side" of Lumbers Rather Than splitters.
> >> Dealing with Occitan, I Admitted phonetical There are Many, and lexical

> >> Even morphological variants That Is to say "dialects" But You Seem To
> >> Reject the notion of "dialect-languages."

> >> In my opinion, whether a dialect of Occitan language in Itself Is A gold
> >> Almost a year IS not unsolvable issue.
> >> Have You Ever Heard Of dialectometry?
> > [Snip]
> > Of course I Have Heard of Dialectology. What do you think I MOST study
> > Of my time, Often in a Foreign Language, French Lately?
>
> Hello Bob,
>
> It Seems you missed a point from Yhi: He Was Talking About dialectometry
> Dialectology and NOT.
>
> Dialectometry IS a very interesting way to measure the linguistic
> Distance Between multiple points of survey.
> And Hans Goebl, for instance, made very interesting studies HAS is Occitan.
>
> Regards,
> Damien Desaygues

Oh, thank you very much. I have never heard this word before -
dialectometry. Measuring the distance between dialects. Very nice.

Yhi

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 11:30:1505/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 20:56, Giboudan <sergegibou...@yahoo.fr> wrote:

Iou shoude wraïte ïn franglish tou bi eundeurstandebol.
Poor wreck !

Yhi

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 11:37:1205/09/2011
à

WARNING !
Giboudan is an asshole who spends hours on the web insulting people.

Yhi

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 11:41:0505/09/2011
à

D'autant plus qu'en Corrèze, la conjugaison est identique à celle
qu'il décrit.

Même pour "parlan", le bas-limousin articule "parlon".
Remarquez aussi l'attitude subversive qui consiste à prendre un verbe
irrégulier avec une spécificité limousine : auvir. lol. Quelle buse !

Judex

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 14:27:4105/09/2011
à


"parlon" o pas res a beire ame "parlou".

Éole

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 14:47:3305/09/2011
à

C'est "parlon" en graphie classique, sombre idiot. "Pàrloun", si vous
préférez.

Judex

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 15:03:3105/09/2011
à


Donc très différent de "parlou".

En effet dans la forme limousine c'est le -N final qui indique la
personne (que la voyelle soit A, OU, ou E est sans importance)

dans la forme auvergnate c'est la voyelle.

Vous avez encore fait une remarque de pédophile haineux au lieu de
réfléchir comme un linguiste, mon pauvre Eric Gonzalès !

Yhi

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 14:48:1305/09/2011
à

Mea culpa, je voulais dire même pour "fasian", le bas-limousin
articule "fazion".
Quant à "parlan"/"parlon" (graphie classique), "parloun" (graphie à la
française) est en fait très présent en bas-limousin mais
"parlon" (graphie à la française) existe aussi.
Pour le prétérit, en bas-limousin, c'est, en graphie classique :
chantei, chanteras, chantet, chanteram, chanteratz, chanteron.
en haut-limousin :
chantei, chanteres, chantet, chanterem, chanteretz, chanteren.
Dans la Haute-Marche, c'est comme dans l'ouest du Puy de Dôme, avec un
prétérit en -t- :
chantei, chantetes, chantet, chantetem, chantetetz/chantetaz,
chanteton.

Éole

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 16:03:3605/09/2011
à

Oui, si on considère l'auvergnat et le limousin comme deux langues
différentes, c'est ça, mais du point de vue de la genèse linguistique
l'auvergnat a bien pàrloun > parlou. Mais peut-être adhérez-vous à la
théorie des langues d'oc, maintenant !

> Vous avez encore fait une remarque de pédophile haineux au lieu de
> réfléchir comme un linguiste, mon pauvre Eric Gonzalès !

Voilà une diffamation propre du zoophile que vous êtes, mon cher Yves
Gourgaud !

Cajun

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 17:13:2605/09/2011
à
> réfléchir comme un linguiste, mon pauvre Eric Gonzalès !- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -
>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

Alors là il y a de la théorie, vite brevetez votre trouvaille où elle
va vous échappez.
Quel non sens !
En limousin, la voyelle finale est partiellement nasalisée avec tout
de même un [n] (ou plutôt [m] en fait aux frontières intonatives)
"relique". Enfin, c'est évidemment bien la voyelle qui importe ainsi
que l'accent tonique qui porte traditionnellement sur la syllabe
pénultième à la troisième personne du pluriel du présent de
l'indicatif (alors qu'à la première du pluriel, elle porte
généralement sur la syllabe finale, ce qui permet de distinguer
d'éventuels homophones pour les parlers qui réalisent les mêmes
flexions verbales).

Beowulf

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 17:46:5205/09/2011
à


En limousin la voyelle peut être A, E, O ou OU

en auvergnat c'est uniquement OU

Cajun

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 17:48:5705/09/2011
à
> en auvergnat c'est uniquement OU- Masquer le texte des messages précédents -

>
> - Afficher le texte des messages précédents -

Et mon cul, c'est a ou ou ?

kwy

non lue,
5 sept. 2011, 17:57:2205/09/2011
à
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 13:03:36 -0700, Éole wrote:


> Oui, si on considère l'auvergnat et le limousin comme deux langues
> différentes, c'est ça, mais du point de vue de la genèse linguistique
> l'auvergnat a bien pàrloun > parlou. Mais peut-être adhérez-vous à la
> théorie des langues d'oc, maintenant !

Bin i' sait pus trop où il en est... Sa brain arrête de worryer.

Bob

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 14:32:1506/09/2011
à
On 4 sep, 06:49, Bob <lindsay.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-reclassification-of-t ...
>
> Hello, I wrote this a while back and it Gave Recently extensive year
> update. I reanalyzed from the Occitan language 1 Stated by Ethnologue
> (After Occitanists by propaganda) to 14 different languages.

Bonjour, now up to 17 langues as I just added 5 nouveau.

Gascon: Pyrenean Gascon and Gascon split to:

East Gascon
West Gascon
Pyrenean Gascon
Bearnais

Languedocien split to:

North Languedocien
Ibero-Languedocien

Limousin split to:

Limousin
Molieres Hills Limousin

Auvergnat split to:

North Auvergnat
South Auvergnat

Comments welcome.

Also most borders have been well delimited.

Un gascon

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 14:38:3406/09/2011
à

>
> Gascon: Pyrenean Gascon and Gascon split to:
>
> East Gascon
> West Gascon
> Pyrenean Gascon
> Bearnais

There's not such thing as Béarnais. Not a single linguistic feature
matches the border of the former viscounty of Béarn. As an Eastern
Béarnais myself, it was quite clear that people in Eastern Béarn had
an easier time getting neighbouring Bigourdan people than Western
Béarnais people. Enough with that Béarnais bullshit unless we're
talking literary standard based on the language of Pau.

Bob

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 15:19:0306/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 11:38, Un gascon <un.gas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Gascon: Pyrenean Gascon Gascon and split to:

>
> > East Gascon
> > West Gascon
> > Pyrenean Gascon
> > Beauvais
>
> There's not Such Thing as Bearn. Not a single linguistic feature
> matches the border of the form viscounty of Béarn. As year Eastern
> Bearn myself, It Was quite clear That people in Eastern Béarn HAD
> An Easier time getting people Neighbouring Bigourdan Than Western
> Bearn people. Enough With That Bearnais UNLESS we're bullshit

> talking literary standard based on the language of Pau.

I added it since we hear over and over that people in Bearn can't seem
to understand the other side of Pyrenean Gascon very well.

Yhi

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 15:29:1706/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 20:32, Bob <lindsay.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4 sep, 06:49, Bob <lindsay.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-reclassification-of-t...
>
> > Hello, I wrote this a while back and it Gave Recently extensive year
> > update. I reanalyzed from the Occitan language 1 Stated by Ethnologue
> > (After Occitanists by propaganda) to 14 different languages.
>
> Bonjour, now up to 17 langues as I just added 5 nouveau.
>
> Gascon: Pyrenean Gascon and Gascon split to:
>
> East Gascon
> West Gascon
> Pyrenean Gascon
> Bearnais
>
> Languedocien split to:
>
> North Languedocien
> Ibero-Languedocien
>
> Limousin split to:
>
> Limousin
> Molieres Hills Limousin

What are "Molieres Hills" ? Did you mean "Monédières" in Corrèze ? You
are right, this is such a weird language.

You should reconsider the splitting of Limousin in some more languages
for my grandparents from the south of Haute-Vienne couldn't understand
more than 50 % of "Creusois" around Aubusson, neither could they
understand more than 60 % of the language from Ussel (East Corrèze).
Moreover, they would have been quite at a loss in front of the [è]
(for stressed or long [a]) incredible dialect of West Limousin.
The language of the "Monts de Blond" is also very peculiar, that has
to be another language for sure.

Babòia, vai. Sorry.

>
> Auvergnat split to:
>
> North Auvergnat
> South Auvergnat
>
> Comments welcome.

You should consider North Auvergnat but also North-West Auvergnat and
North-East-Auvergnat next to "Franco-Provençal" (by the way, have you
considered splitting Franco-Provençal ? You should have a look at it).

> Also most borders have been well delimited.

Any maps ? It would be so delightful.

Éole

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 15:35:1206/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 21:29, Yhi <duckbilled.platy...@laposte.net> wrote:

> You should consider North Auvergnat but also North-West Auvergnat and
> North-East-Auvergnat next to "Franco-Provençal" (by the way, have you
> considered splitting Franco-Provençal ? You should have a look at it).

It also would be interesting if our friend made the same work with
"Langue d'oïl". How is variation in that language ? We want to know.

Yhi

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 15:44:0606/09/2011
à

And what are the results for French ?

Un gascon

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 15:58:2306/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 21:19, Bob <lindsay.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I added it since we hear over and over that people in Bearn can't seem
> to understand the other side of Pyrenean Gascon very well.

Is that a joke ? Mutual understanding is such a lame criterion : if
you ask my grandmother, she doesn't get people living some miles away
from where she was born. There's not such a thing as a Béarnais
subdialect : people in Vic-Bilh (Béarn) speak like people in
neighbouring Rivière-Basse and Armagnac (Gers), people in Orthez speak
like in Chalosse (Landes), people in Pontacq speak like people in
Lourdes (Bigorre), people in the Aspe and Barétous valleys speak an
archaic variant of Pyrenean Gascon.

You cannot tackle such issues if you have no idea about what you're
stating.

Éole

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 16:19:1106/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 21:58, Un gascon <un.gas...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You cannot tackle such issues if you have no idea about what you're
> stating.

Ce qui laisse à penser que notre bonhomme n'est pas très sérieux.

Bob

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 16:47:1406/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 12:35, Éole <eole64...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> It is September 6, 21:29, YHI <duckbilled.platy...@ Laposte.net> wrote:
>
> > You Should Consider North purpose aussi Auvergne Auvergne and North-West
> > North-East-Auvergne next to "Franco-Provençal" (by the way, Have You
> > Franco-Provençal Considered splitting? You Should have a look at it).
>
> Also It Would Be interesting if our friend made the work with Sami
> "Langue d'oil". How Is That change in language? We want to know.

Hi, I am still working on it, and have been for some time now. Maybe I
should just publish it already? It is in notes. Maybe I could give you
the basic lineup, even though it's not formally written up yet.

Will post as new topic. Thx for encouragement mon ami.

Giboudan

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 17:05:5106/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 22:47, Bob <lindsay.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6 sep, 12:35, Éole <eole64...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It is September 6, 21:29, YHI <duckbilled.platy...@ Laposte.net> wrote:
>
> > > You Should Consider North purpose aussi Auvergne Auvergne and North-West
> > > North-East-Auvergne next to "Franco-Provençal" (by the way, Have You
> > > Franco-Provençal Considered splitting? You Should have a look at it).
>
it is stupid!

This poor Jean-François Blanc don't speak our language.

Bob

non lue,
6 sept. 2011, 17:20:5606/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 12:29, Yhi <duckbilled.platy...@laposte.net> wrote:
> It is September 6, 20:32, Bob <lindsay.rob...@ Gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > On September 4, 6:49, Bob <lindsay.rob...@ Gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-reclassification-of-t...
>
> >> Hello, I wrote this a while back and it Gave Recently extensive year
> >> Update. I reanalyzed the Occitan language from a Stated by Ethnologue

> >> (After Occitanists by propaganda) to 14 different languages.
>
> > Hi, now up to 17 languages ​​as I just added 5 new.
>
> > Gascon: Pyrenean Gascon Gascon and split to:

>
> > East Gascon
> > West Gascon
> > Pyrenean Gascon
> > Bearnais
>
> > Languedoc split to:
>
> > North Languedoc
> > Ibero-Languedoc

>
> > Limousin split to:
>
> > Limousin
> > Molieres Hills Limousin
>
> What are "Molieres Hills"? Did you mean "Monédières" in Corrèze? You
> are right, This Is Such A weird language.

Oui.
>
> You Should Reconsider the splitting of Limousin in some more languages
> for my grandparents from the south of Haute-Vienne Could not Understand
> More than 50% of "Creusois" around Aubusson, Neith Could THEY
> Understand More than 60% of the language from Ussel (East Corrèze).

Creusois is already split.

> Moreover, They Would Have Been quite at a loss in front of the [b]
> (Stressed or for long [a]) incredible dialect of West Limousin.

Where is West Limousin spoken? You mean Perigord?

> > Auvergne split to:
>
> > North Auvergne
> > South Auvergne
>
> > Comments welcome.


>
> You Should Consider North purpose aussi Auvergne Auvergne and North-West

> North-East-Auvergne next to "Franco-Provençal" (by the way, Have You
> Considered Franco-Provençal splitting? You Should have a look at it).

Oui, I have it in notes. Not written up yet. I will give a summary
soon.
>
> > MOST Also Have Been well delimited borders.
>
> Any maps? It Would Be So delightful.

Nien, je ne comprendez pas how to make a map. :/

Éole

non lue,
7 sept. 2011, 02:25:3007/09/2011
à

You mean Charente ? I think Yhi means a West Limousin area, not a
subdialect.

Yhi

non lue,
7 sept. 2011, 08:37:5807/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 23:20, Bob <lindsay.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
Nontronnais (North Périgord), a part of Charente and South-West Haute-
Vienne.
Split it all.

Bob

non lue,
16 sept. 2011, 02:00:3216/09/2011
à
On 6 sep, 12:29, Yhi <duckbilled.platy...@laposte.net> wrote:

> You should consider North Auvergnat but also North-West Auvergnat and
> North-East-Auvergnat next to "Franco-Provençal" (by the way, have you
> considered splitting Franco-Provençal ? You should have a look at it).

Hello, here is my work on Arpitan. It is not yet written up. So far, I
have, I believe, 8 separate languages, but there may be more.

Here it is. Apparently 15 languages for Arpitan, though it was
extremely difficult to find intelligibility data for this
macrolanguage.

Arpitan is not just one language, it is actually 7 languages.

Arpitan



****French Arpitan****

Bressan
Burgondan
Dauphinois
Forézien
Lyonnais
Savoyard (Savoyard is definitely more than one language)
Savorêt


****French-Swiss Arpitan****

Jurassien (Franc-Comptois)


****Swiss Arpitan****

Genevois
Fribourgeois
Neuchâtelois
Valaisan
Vaudois


****Italian Arpitan****


Faetar
Valdostano


Comments are very welcome.
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