"Jävle" på Stockholmska
Electric Avenue
the town Jävle. As close as I can get with English pronunciation,
it was "Yavleh", with the "a" pronounced as in "back". In the
Stockholm accent, would this still be pronounced like that, or
would it tend toward "Yehvleh", with the "eh" pronounced as the
"a" in "fate"?
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HWM
>
> I heard the pronunciation (by an American) today of the name of
> the town Jävle.
Don't jävla and misspell Gävle, mispronouncing Gävle as jävel also
jävels gävlebor. ;-)
Gävle = this city
jävel = devil
--
Cheers, HWM
henry.w @ sanet.fi
unglued
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> skrev i meddelandet
news:frQR9.13285$134.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I heard the pronunciation (by an American) today of the name of
> the town Jävle. As close as I can get with English pronunciation,
> it was "Yavleh", with the "a" pronounced as in "back". In the
> Stockholm accent, would this still be pronounced like that, or
> would it tend toward "Yehvleh", with the "eh" pronounced as the
> "a" in "fate"?
no, "eh" pronounced as "eh"
>
>
> «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
> .....Electric.....
> «¤»§«¤»¥«¤»
>
J. Anderson
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:frQR9.13285$134.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I heard the pronunciation (by an American) today of the name of
> the town Jävle. As close as I can get with English pronunciation,
> it was "Yavleh", with the "a" pronounced as in "back". In the
> Stockholm accent, would this still be pronounced like that, or
> would it tend toward "Yehvleh", with the "eh" pronounced as the
> "a" in "fate"?
'Stockholmska' tends to forget that there is a separate letter 'ä' in the
Swedish alphabet, and this leads to many an 'ä' sound being pronounced as an
'e'. And even the 'e' sounds in Stockholm are pronounced differently. All
this is very difficult to describe in writing, using 'sample sounds' from
English words. But I'd say that the 'a' from 'back' is pretty close to how
the 'ä' in Gävle is pronounced in most of Sweden. In order to get the right
sound in the Stockholm dialect (rather: Stockholm slang or with the proper
expression: 'ekensnack') for the 'ä' in Gävle you could perhaps use the 'ea'
in 'steady' and make it as long as the 'ee' in 'beer'.
John
Electric Avenue
"HWM" corrected:
> Electric Avenue wrote:
> >
> > I heard the pronunciation (by an American) today of the name of
> > the town Jävle.
>
> Don't jävla and misspell Gävle, mispronouncing Gävle as jävel also
> jävels gävlebor. ;-)
>
> Gävle = this city
> jävel = devil
Yes, I meant "Gävle.
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Electric Avenue
"J. Anderson" replied:
>
> "Electric Avenue" schrieb:
> > I heard the pronunciation (by an American) today of the name of
> > the town Jävle. As close as I can get with English pronunciation,
> > it was "Yavleh", with the "a" pronounced as in "back". In the
> > Stockholm accent, would this still be pronounced like that, or
> > would it tend toward "Yehvleh", with the "eh" pronounced as the
> > "a" in "fate"?
>
> 'Stockholmska' tends to forget that there is a separate letter 'ä' in
> the Swedish alphabet, and this leads to many an 'ä' sound being
> pronounced as an 'e'. And even the 'e' sounds in Stockholm are
> pronounced differently. All this is very difficult to describe in writing,
> using 'sample sounds' from English words. But I'd say that the 'a'
> from 'back' is pretty close to how the 'ä' in Gävle is pronounced in
> most of Sweden. In order to get the right sound in the Stockholm
> dialect (rather: Stockholm slang or with the proper expression:
> 'ekensnack') for the 'ä' in Gävle you could perhaps use the 'ea'
> in 'steady' and make it as long as the 'ee' in 'beer'.
I *think* you confirm what I suspected - that in a typical Stockholm
accent, Gävle would be pronounced with the corners of the mouth
pulled back and with it more closed than outside of Stockholm. To
add a better idea of this Stockholm "ekensnack" (street slang?),
would the French "é" be close to the Stockholm "ä"?
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J. Anderson
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>
> I *think* you confirm what I suspected - that in a typical Stockholm
> accent, Gävle would be pronounced with the corners of the mouth
> pulled back and with it more closed than outside of Stockholm. To
> add a better idea of this Stockholm "ekensnack" (street slang?)
'Eken' = Stockholm slang for 'Stockholm'!
> would the French "é" be close to the Stockholm "ä"?
Yes, the way it is pronounced at the end of a word. Also close is the 'ee'
in the German word 'See'.
John
unglued
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> skrev i meddelandet
>
>
> I *think* you confirm what I suspected - that in a typical Stockholm
> accent, Gävle would be pronounced with the corners of the mouth
> pulled back and with it more closed than outside of >Stockholm.
"Outside of Stockholm" covers a lot of ground (and dialects)
J. Anderson
"unglued" <uncloud...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:SFgS9.13900$T3....@news1.bredband.com...
>
> "Outside of Stockholm" covers a lot of ground (and dialects)
Yes, but I'd say that this sweeping statement is more or less correct.
Everywhere else people seem to have proper 'ä' sounds - even very close to
Stockholm: in Roslagen, Uppsala, Enköping, Södermanland etc.
I suspect that the Stockholm 'e' is simply a sign of snobbery, of wanting to
demonstrate one's superiority to 'the provincials'. We can observe the same
snobbish strain in the way young people talk in Helsinki or in western Oslo
(Vestkanten).
John
Timo Salo
> I suspect that the Stockholm 'e' is simply a sign of snobbery, of wanting to
> demonstrate one's superiority to 'the provincials'. We can observe the same
> snobbish strain in the way young people talk in Helsinki or in western Oslo
> (Vestkanten).
'E' is also prevalent in finlandsvenska, can anyone tell why?
--
Power is our greatest weakness.
J. Anderson
"Timo Salo" <ts...@cc.hut.fi> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3E19AD...@cc.hut.fi...
Good question! I'd like to know, too.
When I moved back to Finland after a childhood in Gothenburg and Arboga, I
had to adapt my pronunciation to what was acceptable in a Swedish school in
Turku/Åbo. My dialect was 'västmanländska', which was considered even worse
than 'rikssvenska' (standard Swedish as spoken in Sweden) in general. To
stop the mobbing, it was essential to adopt 'finlandssvenska' (standard
Swedish as spoken in Finland) very quickly.
I remember in particular one special 'test word', containing the 'ä' and 'e'
sounds: 'bäver' (= beaver). The way I was used to saying it was with very
clear vowels: 'bääver'. But I was told that in Finland I would have to
pronounce it 'the other way around', like 'beevär'*. I could never quite
understand the logic in this, so any explanations from our resident
linguists would be very welcome.
John
*) In Stockholm one would say 'beever' with the last 'e' only slightly more
open than the first 'e' sound.
Electric Avenue
"J. Anderson" wrote about the Stockholm "ä" pronunciation:
>
> "unglued" wrote:
> >
> > "Outside of Stockholm" covers a lot of ground (and dialects)
>
> Yes, but I'd say that this sweeping statement is more or less correct.
> Everywhere else people seem to have proper 'ä' sounds - even very
> close to Stockholm: in Roslagen, Uppsala, Enköping, Södermanland etc.
>
> I suspect that the Stockholm 'e' is simply a sign of snobbery, of wanting
> to demonstrate one's superiority to 'the provincials'. We can observe
> the same snobbish strain in the way young people talk in Helsinki or
> in western Oslo (Vestkanten).
Given that the Stockholm "ä" is so limited in geographical extent,
I can imagine what political difficulties it might cause to choose to teach
such a pronunciation in Swedish language schools for immigrants.
Does anyone know what the Swedish government chooses to do
about that? Do they teach the pronunciation of the immediate region,
or do they manage to standardize on one form of "immigrant Swedish"
to teach the newcomers wherever they may be?
What does Riksradio do about the "Stockhlm pronunciation"? Do
they tone it down to accommodate the entire country, or do they just
assume the rest of the country might as well accept the "sound of the
capital"?
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Electric Avenue
"J. Anderson" wrote:
>
> *) In Stockholm one would say 'beever' with the last 'e' only slightly more
> open than the first 'e' sound.
I think I've heard that "ee" sound a lot - both in Stockholm and among
Stockholmers here in S. Calif. It's pronounced as a person from Boston
would pronounce "ayer" in "Bayer aspirin". I would call it a diphthong,
although Frank Östmann would probably take issue with that. :-)
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unglued
"J. Anderson" <ar...@iname.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:avc82s$qjs$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> "unglued" <uncloud...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:SFgS9.13900$T3....@news1.bredband.com...
> >
> > "Outside of Stockholm" covers a lot of ground (and dialects)
>
> Yes, but I'd say that this sweeping statement is more or less correct.
> Everywhere else people seem to have proper 'ä' sounds - even very close to
> Stockholm: in Roslagen, Uppsala, Enköping, Södermanland etc.
From Malmö to Haparanda ? I think not.
Timo Salo
> I think I've heard that "ee" sound a lot - both in Stockholm and among
> Stockholmers here in S. Calif. It's pronounced as a person from Boston
> would pronounce "ayer" in "Bayer aspirin". I would call it a diphthong,
> although Frank Östmann would probably take issue with that. :-)
You Americans are one big bunch of twisted diphthongizers. :) It is
practically the same sound as the French é, and it's not a dipthong.
Period.
Lou Reed, though, shows he can get it, singing "He-ee-ee-ee-eroin". He
can even make it last longer than the Finnish "ee", which is really
something.
--
Tiedän,
Timo Salo
J. Anderson
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>
> Given that the Stockholm "ä" is so limited in geographical extent,
> I can imagine what political difficulties it might cause to choose to
teach
> such a pronunciation in Swedish language schools for immigrants.
> Does anyone know what the Swedish government chooses to do
> about that? Do they teach the pronunciation of the immediate region,
> or do they manage to standardize on one form of "immigrant Swedish"
> to teach the newcomers wherever they may be?
To begin with, please remember that not even all native Stockholmers use the
extreme 'e' sounds.
In Sweden dialects are accepted, and whoever is teaching Swedish will
probably use her/his own dialect. For instance, friends of mine, speaking
the Finland-Swedish dialect, have been teaching Swedish to immigrants in
Sweden.
> What does Riksradio do about the "Stockhlm pronunciation"? Do
> they tone it down to accommodate the entire country, or do they just
> assume the rest of the country might as well accept the "sound of the
> capital"?
Sveriges Radio originally tried to stick to dialect-free standard Swedish
(definitely not Stockhomska), but now you will be able to hear the proper
dialect spoken on local and regional radio in different parts of the
country. I think that's a nice approach. When driving through the country, I
enjoy hearing how the dialect changes on the car radio. It's the same in
Norway, but we don't have that in Finland, for some reason.
John
Fredrik :Ostman
| I suspect that the Stockholm 'e' is simply a sign of snobbery, of
| wanting to demonstrate one's superiority to 'the provincials'.
Incredible what ridiculous unfounded nonsense one can come across in
Usenet!
--
______ _~
(_/_ _ _ _/) _ . /) / ) , _/) _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_ (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Inger E
"Fredrik :Ostman" <pot...@direkt.at> skrev i meddelandet
news:3e19fd6b$0$25580$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
> +-----< J. Anderson >
> | I suspect that the Stockholm 'e' is simply a sign of snobbery, of
> | wanting to demonstrate one's superiority to 'the provincials'.
> +-
>
> Incredible what ridiculous unfounded nonsense one can come across in
> Usenet!
And Fredrik for once it's not you who are behind the so called "ridiculous
lines". It must be due to that fact you call the lines unfounded nonsense.
Inger E
J. Anderson
"Fredrik :Ostman" <pot...@direkt.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3e19fd6b$0$25580$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
> +-----< J. Anderson >
> | I suspect that the Stockholm 'e' is simply a sign of snobbery, of
> | wanting to demonstrate one's superiority to 'the provincials'.
> +-
>
> Incredible what ridiculous unfounded nonsense one can come across in
> Usenet!
It's hard to explain how 'stockholmska' has developed. If you take
'götebor(g)ska' (the Gothenburg dialect), the Norwegian sound is evident, in
'skånska' it's not hard to detect the nearness of Denmark, whereas in
Norrland we can hear an affinity with 'östsvenska' (Eastern Swedish)
including 'finlandssvenska'.
But then - in the middle of an entirely different dialectal neighbourhood -
there is 'stockholmska' with no obvious connections.
If you are familiar with the sociology of language, you will know that this
wouldn't be the first time that a city or a social stratum has developed its
own characteristic way of talking, and that the purpose often has been to
distinguish that group from others. Such 'dialectal biotopes' occur even
*within* cities - London is a good example.
There's also nothing new in dialects or slang being used as snobbery.
John
Electric Avenue
"J. Anderson" wrote:
>
> It's hard to explain how 'stockholmska' has developed. If you take
> 'götebor(g)ska' (the Gothenburg dialect), the Norwegian sound is evident, in
> 'skånska' it's not hard to detect the nearness of Denmark, whereas in
> Norrland we can hear an affinity with 'östsvenska' (Eastern Swedish)
> including 'finlandssvenska'.
>
> But then - in the middle of an entirely different dialectal neighbourhood -
> there is 'stockholmska' with no obvious connections.
>
> If you are familiar with the sociology of language, you will know that this
> wouldn't be the first time that a city or a social stratum has developed its
> own characteristic way of talking, and that the purpose often has been to
> distinguish that group from others. Such 'dialectal biotopes' occur even
> *within* cities - London is a good example.
>
> There's also nothing new in dialects or slang being used as snobbery.
Considering the prestige French culture has had in the history of
Sweden - with kings coming from France and Swedish wealthy class
children attending school in Paris - is there any chance that
"Stockholmska" could be derived from a Swede's concept of the
"sound" of French? (I am of the theory that the "nasal" sound of
snobbish upper class British English is derived from the English
concept of the sound of the language of their Norman conquerors.)
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Electric Avenue
"Timo Salo" wrote:
> You Americans are one big bunch of twisted diphthongizers. :) It is
> practically the same sound as the French é, and it's not a dipthong.
> Period.
>
> Lou Reed, though, shows he can get it, singing "He-ee-ee-ee-eroin". He
> can even make it last longer than the Finnish "ee", which is really
> something.
Sheoww nuuff, we reeyully iyuz, eyuspéyucially in thuaw Säooth. :-)
I'm sometimes amused at all the vowel sounds that come out of one
Southern syllable. I'm sure the song composer love southern accents
for that purpose - it makes for such flexibility in rhyme and metre.
Some people actually consider Southern accents to be "cute". It
reminds me of the girl in Stockholm who thought the accent of a boy
from Göteborg was cute (she used a word which meant "comfortable").
I guess it's universal that regional accents can be charming, although
there are a few American regional accents that make me cringe
(a Noo Yawk accentte being one of them). Does anyone in Sweden
consider a Stockholm accent "cute"?
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Fredrik :Ostman
| There's also nothing new in dialects or slang being used as snobbery.
Perhaps you aren't familiar with the word "snobbery". Ekensnack is
(was) a lower-class accent.
J. Anderson
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
I was trying to identify such languages that could have contributed to the
development of 'stockholmska'. Looking back at the history of Stockholm,
there are basically three possibilities.
Chronologically, the first one is German. Stockholm was a Hanseatic city for
quite some time, and in the 15th, 16th and into the 17th centuries, German
was the dominating language among the burghers of the Swedish capital. Ever
since the 1570s, there has been a German church in Stockholm.
The second one would be Finnish. Beginning in the 16th century growing
numbers of Finns settled in Stockholm, which was also *their* capital and
fairly easy to reach from Turku/Åbo. This migration continued into the 19th
century (and started anew in the 1960s). There has been a Finnish Lutheran
congregation (with it's own church) in Stockholm since 1533.
And, like you say, French is also a possible factor. After the decline of
Latin, French became the *lingua franca* of Europe. Its importance grew in
the Age of Enlightenment and, in Sweden, especially during the reign of king
Gustavus III. Towards the end of the 18th century, it was fashionable among
Stockholmers to converse in French, and naturally the arrival of Marshal
Bernadotte in 1810 promoted the language even further, especially since the
new king never bothered to learn Swedish.
But, my fields being history and sociology, I won't venture to guess to what
degree 'stockholmska' was influenced by each of these languages - that's a
task for the linguists.
John
J. Anderson
"Fredrik :Ostman" <Fredrik...@siemens.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:qbil1vsrj5pvv4tcg...@4ax.com...
> +-----< J. Anderson >
> | There's also nothing new in dialects or slang being used as snobbery.
> +-
>
> Perhaps you aren't familiar with the word "snobbery". Ekensnack is
> (was) a lower-class accent.
The Stockholmian 'e' sound - which this thread really is about - is not
restrictid to 'ekensnack' alone. Just visit the schoolyard of Östra Real,
and you'll know.
John
Henrik
> restrictid to 'ekensnack' alone. Just visit the schoolyard of Östra Real,
> and you'll know.
Right, the stereotypical stockholmian "e" as in räven/reven is not at
present an aspect of a "lect" preserved among class lines, but isn't
that where it originated (i.e ekensnack)? I'm not a linguist so I
don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is something
that has "trickled upwards" kind of like how the Li-i-idingö "iii"
supposedly was picked up from locals by upper class STHLM youths on
vacation in the south of Sweden (this was described on an episode of
"Värsta Språket" recently).
Regarding standardized Swedish, rikssvenska, isn't the pronounciation
based on "Upsaliensiska" ("Uppsala University language"). Does the
standardization of spelling tie into this?
On another note, it seems most Swedish dialects have a kind of
"archetypical" sentence to show it off. Värmlänningarna have "å i åa e
ä ea ö" (I think that's how it goes, Eng: "and in the river there's an
island") of Fröding fame. Västmanländska has IMO, and this goes out
especially for Electric Avenue: "stäng duurren förrä ä så murkt uute"
(Eng: close the door 'cause it's so dark outside) ;-)
/h
HWM
> On another note, it seems most Swedish dialects have a kind of
> "archetypical" sentence to show it off. Värmlänningarna have "å i åa e
> ä ea ö" (I think that's how it goes, Eng: "and in the river there's an
> island") of Fröding fame. Västmanländska has IMO, and this goes out
> especially for Electric Avenue: "stäng duurren förrä ä så murkt uute"
> (Eng: close the door 'cause it's so dark outside) ;-)
Or the example of the seven seasick nurses, who in Stockholmssvenska are
the "hyy hööhyyka hyythöötterhko" and in Finlandssvenska "shuu
shöööshuukka shuukshööterskor".
Electric Avenue
"Henrik" wrote:
>
> Right, the stereotypical stockholmian "e" as in räven/reven
> is not at present an aspect of a "lect" preserved among
> class lines, but isn't that where it originated (i.e ekensnack)?
> I'm not a linguist so I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be
> surprised if this is something that has "trickled upwards"
> kind of like how the Li-i-idingö "iii" supposedly was picked
> up from locals by upper class STHLM youths on vacation
> in the south of Sweden (this was described on an episode
> of "Värsta Språket" recently).
>
> Regarding standardized Swedish, rikssvenska, isn't the
> pronounciation based on "Upsaliensiska" ("Uppsala
> University language"). Does the standardization of spelling
> tie into this?
That's facinating to me that the Lidingö "iii" trickled upward.
Does this pronunciation still exist in regions of southern Sweden?
It's sort of like the words and pronunciation of American ghetto
"street talk" that have entered the speach of middle class
American youth, and especially in the language of music. And
before that, it was the accents of Country Western music that
dominated the music of a couple generations, even to the extent
of influencing British popular music. I remember a discotheque
houseband in Göteborg playing Aretha Franklin's "Respect",
and I could close my eyes and hear a black woman singing.
The difference with the Lidingö "iii" and American country
"twang" and ghetto speach is that it hasn't here become a
generalized badge of social status - just of "hipness".
BTW, what is this "Värsta Språket"? Is it a history or language
TV series? Why is it named "The Worst Language"?
> On another note, it seems most Swedish dialects have a kind of
> "archetypical" sentence to show it off. Värmlänningarna have "å i åa e
> ä ea ö" (I think that's how it goes, Eng: "and in the river there's an
> island") of Fröding fame. Västmanländska has IMO, and this goes out
> especially for Electric Avenue: "stäng duurren förrä ä så murkt uute"
> (Eng: close the door 'cause it's so dark outside) ;-)
Hmmm. I think I hear the call for MPEG. The subtleties of accent
sure get lost in ASCII. Anyway, I'm saving those in my Swedish
Regional Snack file. (I hope I remember what *that* means.)
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Magnus Link
characters in the subject line. Actually, I'm afraid they will
disappear from the texts too. It's too bad...]
"Henrik" wrote:
> Right, the stereotypical stockholmian "e" as in räven/reven
> is not at present an aspect of a "lect" preserved among
> class lines, but isn't that where it originated (i.e ekensnack)?
I don't hear much Swedish when in Helsinki, TV news being the main
exception, but from this admitedly limited experience I've drawn the
conclusion that the stockholmian "e" pronounciation dominates also in
Finland-swedish.
> Regarding standardized Swedish, rikssvenska, isn't the pronounciation
> based on "Upsaliensiska" ("Uppsala University language"). Does the
> standardization of spelling tie into this?
As a foreigner having put quite some effort into trying to learn first
pronounciation then spelling of Swedish, I would like to point out
that I have yet not found anything resembling a standardized
_pronounciation_ of Swedish.
Taking up serious studies in Swedish writing was such a relief! I had
really feared it would be much worse. All my major troubles with
Swedish spelling can be traced back to this lack of standard for
pronounciation.
"Electric Avenue" wrote:
> BTW, what is this "Värsta Språket"? Is it a history or language
> TV series? Why is it named "The Worst Language"?
A not so serious-seeming TV show, giving the impression of being aimed
at kids in their early teens or younger, ...but aired long after their
bed-time.
Electric Avenue
"Magnus Link" wrote, then quoted Electric Ave:
> [Using Google to post I can't contribute to threads with Scandinavian
> characters in the subject line. Actually, I'm afraid they will
> disappear from the texts too. It's too bad...]
>
> > TV series? Why is it named "The Worst Language"?
Well, "Värsta Språket" made it through Google. Maybe it will
work for you if you just always quote *me*! :-)
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Electric Avenue
"Magnus Link" wrote:
> As a foreigner having put quite some effort into trying to learn first
> pronounciation then spelling of Swedish, I would like to point out
> that I have yet not found anything resembling a standardized
> _pronounciation_ of Swedish.
> Taking up serious studies in Swedish writing was such a relief! I had
> really feared it would be much worse. All my major troubles with
> Swedish spelling can be traced back to this lack of standard for
> pronounciation.
It's a good thing you're not learning Norwegian or Danish! Heck,
I'd go nuts if I just had to learn English. Which is it? British or American?
If British, which class? If American, which region? Will Canadian
English be OK? I have the practical answer: Choose a respected
TV announcer and copy his accent. Just make sure he's not an
immigrant.
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Magnus Homann
> That's facinating to me that the Lidingö "iii" trickled upward.
It's a theory.
> Does this pronunciation still exist in regions of southern Sweden?
Yes, of course. On the Ilands of Bouhslän (West Coast) this is the
norm. That's how they pronounce 'sill' for instance.
'Värsta Språket' kan alos mean "The greatest/largest/coolest
language", as 'värsta' is used as an amplifier among kids of today.
Ooops, I felt old suddenly.
This TV-show seems to be very popular, BTW, among all ages.
Homann
--
Magnus Homann, M.Sc. CS & E
d0a...@dtek.chalmers.se
Fredrik :Ostman
| Regarding standardized Swedish, rikssvenska, isn't the pronounciation
| based on "Upsaliensiska" ("Uppsala University language").
Yes.
+-
| Does the standardization of spelling tie into this?
+-
No.
Electric Avenue
"Magnus Homann" wrote:
> 'Värsta Språket' kan alos mean "The greatest/largest/coolest
> language", as 'värsta' is used as an amplifier among kids of today.
Like "bad" came to mean "good" or "really cool" or "bitchin'" or
"far out" or... I should stop now.
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Sven Wallman
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> writes:
> BTW, what is this "Värsta Språket"? Is it a history or language
> TV series? Why is it named "The Worst Language"?
Their homepage is at http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=1683. There
are some movie clips available.
This series have been a big success and you would have appreciated their
segments regarding Swedish accents.
Magnus Homann
> "Magnus Homann" wrote:
> > 'Värsta Språket' kan alos mean "The greatest/largest/coolest
> > language", as 'värsta' is used as an amplifier among kids of today.
>
>
> Like "bad" came to mean "good" or "really cool" or "bitchin'" or
> "far out" or... I should stop now.
"The baddest language" might be a good translation, actually.
J. Anderson
"Sven Wallman" <sv...@ariel.local.ipunplugged.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3e1c2ac8$1...@news.wineasy.se...
> Their homepage is at http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=1683. There
> are some movie clips available.
Thanks for the link! The report on dialects on TV was quite interesting. The
guy imitating dialects is worth listening to, especially for those who've
only heard Stockholm Swedish.
The interviewed news editor (Ms. Stålnert) initially said that dialects or
foreign accents would not be allowed in the news broadcasts, but the clip
ended with her admitting that perhaps this rule was ripe for revision. She
also maintained that the official way of speaking was some kind of adopted
Stockholm dialect, but here she is mistaken. It's perfectly possible to
speak dialect-free Swedish without the result being some kind of Uppland
'dialect', not to mention 'stockholmska'.
John
Eugene Holman
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> wrote:
>
> It's a good thing you're not learning Norwegian or Danish! Heck,
> I'd go nuts if I just had to learn English. Which is it? British or
> American?
> If British, which class?
Add region. English and its immediate antecedents, Saxon, Anglian,
Jutish, and Frisian have been spoken in Britain for more than 1500
years, hence there is far more regional variation in the British Isles
than there is in America, where English has only been spoken for the
past 380 years and really only replaced indigenous languages during the
past 180 years. I spent a week in Glasgow a few years ago and hardly
understood a word of the local variety of English. The English of
Yorkshire in north-eastern England is also exceptionally difficult for
most non-locals to understand. I won't even say a word about Australian
English, also known as "Strine". If present demographic, political, and
educational trends continue the most widely spoken national variety of
English will be the English of the Indian subcontinent (=India +
Pakistan + Bangladesh, about 1.5 billion potential speakers today)).
English, once a European language, now a language with its largest body
of speakers in North America, will become a primarily Asian language,
just as Spanish and Portuguese are now rimarily Western Hemisphere
languages.
American also has strong class accents. A very good film illustrating
this is *Midnight Cowboy*. Disregarding Joe Buck's yokel accent, we
have Rico Rizzo's lower working class New York English contrasted with
the refined English of the first lady Joe tries to pick up oin the
middle of Park Avenue, the midle-class Jewish "New Yohk" accent of
Cass, the woman with the poodle and the penthouse, and the upper-middle
class English of the lady he eventually engages as a client.
> If American, which region? Will Canadian
> English be OK? I have the practical answer: Choose a respected
> TV announcer and copy his accent. Just make sure he's not an
> immigrant.
Very few languages have an absolute standard version that is above all
others, and of those few, not all have a society conservative enough to
take the standard seriously. Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Finnish,
English, all with numerous geographically, socially, and situationally
conditioned variants, are quite "normal" languages.
Fredrik :Ostman
| The Stockholmian 'e' sound - which this thread really is about - is not
| restrictid to 'ekensnack' alone.
That is correct, to some extent. But surely you are aware of the same
trait in Finland, on Åland, on Gotland? It's a continuum.
+-
| Just visit the schoolyard of Östra Real,
| and you'll know.
+-
Everything is mixed up now. But you were discussing the origins.
Electric Avenue
"J. Anderson" wrote:
> The interviewed news editor (Ms. Stålnert) initially said that
> dialects or foreign accents would not be allowed in the news
> broadcasts, but the clip ended with her admitting that
> perhaps this rule was ripe for revision. She also maintained
> that the official way of speaking was some kind of adopted
> Stockholm dialect, but here she is mistaken. It's perfectly
> possible to speak dialect-free Swedish without the result
> being some kind of Uppland 'dialect', not to mention
> 'stockholmska'.
Perhaps what she meant by "official" was "Riksradio standard
dialect" rather than "universally-recognized standard dialect".
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Electric Avenue
"Eugene Holman" quotes the gentleman of the Electrical persuasion :
> "Electric Avenue" wrote:
>
> > It's a good thing you're not learning Norwegian or Danish! Heck,
> > I'd go nuts if I just had to learn English. Which is it? British or
> > American?
> > If British, which class?
>
> Add region. English and its immediate antecedents, Saxon, Anglian,
> Jutish, and Frisian have been spoken in Britain for more than 1500
> years, hence there is far more regional variation in the British Isles
> than there is in America, where English has only been spoken for the
> past 380 years and really only replaced indigenous languages during the
> past 180 years. I spent a week in Glasgow a few years ago and hardly
> understood a word of the local variety of English. The English of
> Yorkshire in north-eastern England is also exceptionally difficult for
> most non-locals to understand. I won't even say a word about Australian
> English, also known as "Strine". If present demographic, political, and
> educational trends continue the most widely spoken national variety of
> English will be the English of the Indian subcontinent (=India +
> Pakistan + Bangladesh, about 1.5 billion potential speakers today)).
> English, once a European language, now a language with its largest body
> of speakers in North America, will become a primarily Asian language,
> just as Spanish and Portuguese are now rimarily Western Hemisphere
> languages.
Well, O'Strine is not too bad. I can usually understand the words -
if not their meanings. Like British English, there are a lot of pet
nicknames for a lot of common things. But you make an astounding
point about the trend of English toward Asia. After thinking about it,
I think you're right. I have never met an Indian or Pakistani who didn't
speak good, if not excellent, English (although always with a pronounced
Indian subcontinent accent). I have also been struck by the number of
immigrants to Sweden with whom I've spoken with who, although moving
to Sweden as teenagers, still spoke English quite well. It didn't matter
if they came from Africa, Iran, Asia, or the Philippines - they all arrived
in Scandinavia already speaking English. And they seemed to relax
as they spoke with me, as they seemed to be falling back into old familiar
speach patterns. There was even the Thai woman in Copenhagen whom
I met while doing laundry at a coin laundromat. In her adulthood, already
with a daughter, he had met and married a Danish man and had immi-
grated to Denmark. I had no trouble speaking with her, and she had
obviously spoken English a lot back in Thailand.
About Spanish having become an American language - I'm happy
that I have no plans to learn Spanish. I wouldn't know what dialect to
choose. I am reminded of my cousin, who is 1/4 Finnish, 3/4 British
Isles, who speaks fluent "California Spanish". When visiting Madrid
for the first time, he noticed people breaking into big grins whenever
he spoke Spanish. Someone finally explained to him that he sounded
like a Mexican - a 2-meter tall, blond Mexican.
> American also has strong class accents. A very good film illustrating
> this is *Midnight Cowboy*. Disregarding Joe Buck's yokel accent, we
> have Rico Rizzo's lower working class New York English contrasted with
> the refined English of the first lady Joe tries to pick up oin the
> middle of Park Avenue, the midle-class Jewish "New Yohk" accent of
> Cass, the woman with the poodle and the penthouse, and the upper-
> middle class English of the lady he eventually engages as a client.
I think I remember my dad mentioning Midnight Cowboy once. But I
didn't know it had sound. :-) :-) I'll have to rent it if it's on DVD and
check it out.
> > If American, which region? Will Canadian
> > English be OK? I have the practical answer: Choose a respected
> > TV announcer and copy his accent. Just make sure he's not an
> > immigrant.
>
> Very few languages have an absolute standard version that is above all
> others, and of those few, not all have a society conservative enough to
> take the standard seriously. Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, Finnish,
> English, all with numerous geographically, socially, and situationally
> conditioned variants, are quite "normal" languages.
You're right. They only seem so varied to me because of my limited
linguistic experience. Regarding my comment about the TV announcers -
one of the most well-respected TV announcers in the U.S. is Peter
Jennings, a Canadian immigrant, who does speak with a discernible
Canadian accent. Uhhh, it's OK to sound like Peter Jennings. :-)
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HWM
> When visiting Madrid
> for the first time, he noticed people breaking into big grins whenever
> he spoke Spanish. Someone finally explained to him that he sounded
> like a Mexican - a 2-meter tall, blond Mexican.
I've met with a 2m tall lobster-colored blonde from Brazil that spoke
only Portugese...
"hombres de Odessa"
Magnus Link
> It's a good thing you're not learning Norwegian or Danish!
The Danes have their bad habits, as for instance the well-known
problem to differentiate between 'lærer' and 'læge', which they
stubornly pronounce indistinguishably.
The Swedes have theirs, as of the kind 'skära', 'kära', 'tjära'. ...or
the pronounciation of -or, -ar, -er in word endings, which varies
quite a lot between educated high prestige speakers from different
parts of the country.
> Heck, I'd go nuts if I just had to learn English.
I did. The spelling of English is such a mess. Worse than Danish, and
probably almost as bad as Swedish. :->
I started to study English a few years before French, but when I'd
finished school it turned out that I felt much more confident with
writing French than English.
But I've puked over Swedish quite a few times too. After the first
basic studies, it was time to concentrate on the stylistic level
suitable for business letters, placards and so on. My teacher's most
common phrase has remained: "You must be prepared to see this
phenomena, but you must never use it!" I'm _so_ tired of those words!
> British or American?
> If British, which class?
> If American, which region?
> Will Canadian English be OK?
> I have the practical answer: Choose a respected TV announcer
> and copy his accent. Just make sure he's not an immigrant.
A good method for immigrants to an English speaking country.
We in the rest of the world will have to find other solutions.
But I must say that English as a lingua franca is much superior to
French. French speakers have a tendency to request a much higher
degree of proficiency. You _must_ have a large vocabulary and a fairly
good pronounciation if you want to communicate in French.
Electric Avenue
"Magnus Link" wrote:
>
> But I've puked over Swedish quite a few times too. After the first
> basic studies, it was time to concentrate on the stylistic level
> suitable for business letters, placards and so on. My teacher's most
> common phrase has remained: "You must be prepared to see this
> phenomena, but you must never use it!" I'm _so_ tired of those words!
Yes, learn it but don't use it. Like Bill Clinton who smoked marijuana
as a college student - but he NEVER INHALED!! 8-)
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Electric Avenue
"Sven Wallman" linked:
> "Electric Avenue" writes:
> > BTW, what is this "Värsta Språket"? Is it a history or language
> > TV series? Why is it named "The Worst Language"?
>
> Their homepage is at http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=1683. There
> are some movie clips available.
>
> This series have been a big success and you would have appreciated their
> segments regarding Swedish accents.
Well, I gathered my patience and downloaded a bunch of clips, but
it all sounded like Swedish to me. :-) This word "schyrre" is interesting,
though (apparently meaning "something extra" It's not in my ordbok. Is
it too vernacular to be there? Is it regional?
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Gordon Beaton
> Well, I gathered my patience and downloaded a bunch of clips, but
> it all sounded like Swedish to me. :-) This word "schyrre" is interesting,
> though (apparently meaning "something extra" It's not in my ordbok. Is
> it too vernacular to be there? Is it regional?
"Schyrre" is a variant of "schysst", meaning cool, very nice, right on
etc. I've only ever heard one person use it, and he's from a small
town just northeast of Uppsala.
Here's another web page with clips of Swedish dialects (seen in this
morning's Metro): http://www.swedia.nu/
/gordon
--
[ do not send me private copies of your followups ]
g o r d o n . b e a t o n @ e r i c s s o n . c o m
Electric Avenue
"Gordon Beaton" wrote:
>
> "Schyrre" is a variant of "schysst", meaning cool, very nice, right on
> etc. I've only ever heard one person use it, and he's from a small
> town just northeast of Uppsala.
>
> Here's another web page with clips of Swedish dialects (seen in this
> morning's Metro): http://www.swedia.nu/
Interesting. Yeah, I can hear differences, but I really have to listen
carefully to be sure it's not just individual variation. It really helps to
have both the transcription and the translation into standard Swedish.
The tiny differences that I hear are huge differences! I wonder why
nothing similar (that I know of) has been done with American English.
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Fredrik :Ostman
| "Schyrre" is a variant of "schysst", meaning cool, very nice, right on
| etc. I've only ever heard one person use it, and he's from a small
| town just northeast of Uppsala.
Typical 90's Stockholm slang.
chips -> tjirre, tjirre-barre
snask -> snarre, snarre-barre
juste -> sjyrre, sjyrre-barre
Thomson McFarlane
> In article <4ZRS9.22625$9N5.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> "Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> wrote:
>
> >
> > It's a good thing you're not learning Norwegian or Danish! Heck,
> > I'd go nuts if I just had to learn English. Which is it? British or
> > American?
> > If British, which class?
>
> Add region. English and its immediate antecedents, Saxon, Anglian,
> Jutish, and Frisian have been spoken in Britain for more than 1500
> years, hence there is far more regional variation in the British Isles
> than there is in America, where English has only been spoken for the
> past 380 years and really only replaced indigenous languages during the
> past 180 years. I spent a week in Glasgow a few years ago and hardly
> understood a word of the local variety of English.
Eugene,
As an aside, in Scotland, what you heard was either Scots of
Scottish English. Scottish English is indeed very similar to
English, but with certain elements of Scots in its usage,
enough to show difference. Scots while having the same root
as English developed somewhat differently, and it is said
retains some earlier forms lost to English.
Scottish English ranges from the definition I gave above to
near Scots depending on the speaker and the situation.
Scots use has decreased greatly, due to TV, and what is now
being known as globalisation, although these are secondary
to the political attempts, from the late 1700s onwards, to
say that it is not a language, but a bad dialect of English.
The Scots I speak has lost much from earlier days, and yet
it can still be difficult and sometimes near impossible for
me to understand other dialects of Scots. Yes, Scots has
many dialects.
Hopefully, this adds to your knowledge, and is not seen as
any criticism.
As you are a linguist, if you are ever interested, then more
on Scots can be found from:
"Scots - The Mither Tongue" by Billy Kay, Mainstream
Publishing ISBN 1 85158 033 6
Thomson
--
Thomson McFarlane
Tampere, Finland
Electric Avenue
"Thomson McFarlane" wrote:
>
> As an aside, in Scotland, what you heard was either Scots of
> Scottish English. Scottish English is indeed very similar to
> English, but with certain elements of Scots in its usage,
> enough to show difference. Scots while having the same root
> as English developed somewhat differently, and it is said
> retains some earlier forms lost to English.
Is Scots more closely related to Jutish and Frisian than
English is?
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Thomson McFarlane
<%TbV9.10829$Dq.11...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
possibly as Scots retains more older forms then it may be
closer, but I think that the degree of closeness wouldn't
differ very much.
Jan Böhme
> Is Scots more closely related to Jutish and Frisian than
> English is?
Shouldn't be any difference in that respect. Scots and English
diverged quite long after West Germanic speech was firmly established
in Britain.
OTOH, and more on-topic in this group, Scots contains a lot more
loan-words of _Scandinavian_ origin that standard English.
Most of the words are of West Norse (i.e Old Norwegian) rather than
East Norse (Old Danish) origin, as opposed to the situation in
English.
Jan Böhme
Eugene Holman
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> wrote:
> Is Scots more closely related to Jutish and Frisian than
> English is?
It would be more accurate to say that Scots is a linear continuation of
the Northumbrian dialect of Old English. English evolved out of an
amalgamation of the distinct but related West Germanic tribal dialects,
Anglain, Saxon, Jutish, and Frisian, introduced to Britain starting
around the year 448 AD. Part of the joint history of these dialects is
a certain leveling of differences in the conditions of limitd
communication and different political entities (the Anglo-Saxon
Heptarchy) between the 5th and 7th centuries, but another part is the
intensification of differences owing to such factors as the
geographical boundary posed by the River Humber, separating
Northumbrian from Mercian, both originally Anglian dialects, and then,
after the Treaty of Wedmore (878), the establishment of the Danelaw and
the peaceful (no ethnic cleansing or mass expulsions) influx of
Scandinavians into Northern England.
One of the results of this is that the English of Northumberland and
Scotland acquired many features which differentiated ot from the
English spoken south of the Danelaw boundary. These differences were
significant enough to justify the elaboration of an alternative
standardization, Scots, during the Middle Ages. This standardization
was abandoned during the 17th century for political reasons, but many
of iys linguistic differences with respect to southern English that
once justified its existence still survive in the vernacular speech of
Scotland.
--
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Eugene Holman
"Electric Avenue" <Elec...@OperaMail.commerce> wrote:
'
Judge for yourself:
Source: http://www.pkc.gov.uk/slrc/slrcwhit.htm
<quote>
Whit is Scots?
Scots is the language spoken in Lowland Scotland frae Shetland tae the
Borders an the Sooth West o Scotland.
Onybody seekin tae fin Scots written, spoken or sung could dee waur nor
tae speir at a local library but furth o Scotland ye michtna fin
muckle.
Literary Scots gaes back tae John Barbour and Gavin Douglas, warks its
wey forrit through Scott, Burns, Galt and MacLennan an comes right up
tae date wi Robert Stephen, Irvine Welsh an Matthew Fitt. Libraries hae
archives o legal an business papers written in Scots, and modern
recordins o Scots spoken and sung.
Scots is spoken in maist workin class areas o Scotland - on fairms, in
fishin ports, at fitba matches, in factories, in garages, on buses, in
playgruns and in shops, as weel as at Burns Suppers an University
conferences. In Glesca, the Scots Language Society has meetins whaur
fowk spik Scots thegither, the Scots Tung group meets in Musselburgh
and the West Lothian Broadly Scots group gaithers in Bathgate.
Local newspapers fae Shetlan tae the Borders has columns in their ain
tongue - an we'd be gled tae mak up a leet if fowk wad let us ken aboot
them. Ilkae week in the North East, the Press and Journal has Stronach
an the Evening Express has Dod n Bunty; in Tayside, the Courier has the
Diary o a Fermer's Wife every secont week. Fae time tae time thae pages
are pitten thegither intil a book. Lately, the Scotsman has stertit a
column wi some Scots in the reportit speech an The Herald's Fermin page
whiles has some Scots in its weekly columns - ane written by a
sheepdog!
William Donaldson has a grand collection o Scots prose taen fae
nineteenth century newspapers. Though the Kailyard school o literature
is baith sentimental an simplistic, there is plenty guid Scots in the
language o the characters; likewise, Scots comedy fae the 20th century
is aften, richtly, criticised for makkin a fuil o the fowk that yaise
it - though whiles the Scots spikkers is gey sherpwittit - the language
is Scots, an aften maks guid uise o dialeck. Para Handy is set on the
West Coast an the characters frae Glesca are markit oot frae the
hielanders by the wye they spik, the McFlannells are Glaswegian but
comparin that wi the tongue o Rab C Nesbitt gies some idea o how
Glaswegian has chynged in fifty year. Dufton Scott's stories an
sketches are as true tae the Nor East as JM Barrie's are tae Angus
On TV vox pops, Radio Scotland's and local stations' phone-in
programmes maist o the fowk yaise yin kind o Scots or anither. Jist
listen - ye micht hear hear a body yaisin braid Scots or some ither
body that thinks he's yaisin English, though onybody English would pick
oot ony nummer a words or uises that would gar him or her winner.
(BBC Radio Scotland broadcasts on the web - listen tae Leslie Riddoch's
denner time phone-in programme an Setterday's fitba phone-ins)
</quote>
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Electric Avenue
"Eugene Holman" quoted:
> > Is Scots more closely related to Jutish and Frisian than
> > English is?
>
> Judge for yourself:
>
> Source: http://www.pkc.gov.uk/slrc/slrcwhit.htm
>
> <quote>
> Whit is Scots?
>
>
> Scots is the language spoken in Lowland Scotland frae Shetland tae the
> Borders an the Sooth West o Scotland.
> </quote>
Assuming that Jutish is similar to Danish, Scots appears closer to
English. I don't know anything about Frisian, though.
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Thomson McFarlane
Scots. Older people and country people will probably use
more Scots words than is in the above. I would also disagree
with some of the words in the above, but that is dialectal
differences, e.g. I would have written 'wunner' rather than
'winner' in the second last paragraph.
One grammatical point that shows real difference is the
forming of the past tense by adding 'it', where in English
'ed' would be used. It can also be found often in adjectives
as well, e.g. stupit (stupid), glaickit (gormless), drookit
(soaking wet) wabbit (very tired)
Apologies to any scs readers who see this for not writing
*nglish as is expected.