Ruotsi->Russia?
Tapio
The name Ruotsi, it is argued, arose from roosmenn, men of the
rowing-way, the people of today's Roslagen, the Rowing-Law, the
coastal area of Swedish Uppland. Those were the people known to the
Finnish, whether the Vikings came from Denmark, Sweden or Norway."
(This is claimed to be from "A History of the Vikings" by Gwyn
Jones)
This is a strange theory, unless the Finns were living in both Novgorod and
what is nowadays Finland or Estonia travelling back and forth before
Vikings. Now that I come to think about it, didn't the "Finns" have a town
by the Lake Ladoga (Laatokan kaupunki) before there were any towns in
Sweden. And if rowing was the distinctive feature of the Ruotsi it has to
mean that these travelling "Finns" were sailing. Right?
--
Tapsa
"Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others."
Marx
Markku Huttu-Hiltunen
Tapio wrote:
No, it's quite understandable that the Swedes (or Vikings) could have been
called "rowers" just because all the time the Finns saw them they were
(naturally) moving by boats (rowing or even sailing). It could have been as
simple as that, there's no need to draw any conclusions about how the Finns
moved across the waterways.
MHH
Tapio
news:3C4FE52C...@pp.htv.fi:
>
>
> Tapio wrote:
>
>> "Rus comes from the Finnish name for Sweden, Ruotsi.....
>> The name Ruotsi, it is argued, arose from roosmenn, men of the
>> rowing-way, the people of today's Roslagen, the Rowing-Law, the
>> coastal area of Swedish Uppland. Those were the people known to the
>> Finnish, whether the Vikings came from Denmark, Sweden or Norway."
>> (This is claimed to be from "A History of the Vikings" by Gwyn
>> Jones)
>>
>> This is a strange theory, unless the Finns were living in both
>> Novgorod and what is nowadays Finland or Estonia travelling back and
>> forth before Vikings. Now that I come to think about it, didn't the
>> "Finns" have a town by the Lake Ladoga (Laatokan kaupunki) before
>> there were any towns in Sweden. And if rowing was the distinctive
>> feature of the Ruotsi it has to mean that these travelling "Finns"
>> were sailing. Right?
>
> No, it's quite understandable that the Swedes (or Vikings) could have
> been called "rowers" just because all the time the Finns saw them they
> were (naturally) moving by boats (rowing or even sailing). It could
> have been as simple as that, there's no need to draw any conclusions
> about how the Finns moved across the waterways.
>
Let me calrify with a couple of hypotheses
1) The etymology of the word Russia in the beginning of this post is
correct.
2) The word ended up in Novgorod because the "Finns" were travelling back
and forth between the Baltic and Novgorod.
3) They travelled by boats.
4) When the "Finns" saw Vikings they described them with a word which
described what was distinctive in them, that is, different from what they
themselves were.
5) If rowing was this distictive feature, it has to mean that the "Finns"
themselves didn't row but sailed (that being the only alternative unless
they swam or something)
Well okay, the firs and the last hypotheses are a bit shaky but others are
solid as a rock, don't you agree?
Kari Yli-Kuha
> Let me calrify with a couple of hypotheses
>
> 1) The etymology of the word Russia in the beginning of this post is
> correct.
> 2) The word ended up in Novgorod because the "Finns" were travelling back
> and forth between the Baltic and Novgorod.
> 3) They travelled by boats.
> 4) When the "Finns" saw Vikings they described them with a word which
> described what was distinctive in them, that is, different from what they
> themselves were.
> 5) If rowing was this distictive feature, it has to mean that the "Finns"
> themselves didn't row but sailed (that being the only alternative unless
> they swam or something)
>
> Well okay, the firs and the last hypotheses are a bit shaky but others are
> solid as a rock, don't you agree?
Before you jump into more conclusions I suggest you read the page at
http://personal.phpoint.net/poeysti/hunfinnit.htm
and especially the part about Aldeigjuborg/Staraja Ladoga.
(sorry, in Finnish only)
/Kari
Jussi Jalonen
> "Rus comes from the Finnish name for Sweden, Ruotsi.....
I think that Jones has made a mishap here. It'd be more accurate to
state that both the names "Ruotsi" and "Rus" come from the same
origin, which is believed to be Roslagen.
> This is a strange theory, unless the Finns were living in both Novgorod and
> what is nowadays Finland or Estonia travelling back and forth before Vikings.
> Now that I come to think about it, didn't the "Finns" have a town by the Lake
> Ladoga (Laatokan kaupunki) before there were any towns in Sweden.
There were Finnish-related tribes in the heartlands of Novgorod. The
very word "Tschud'" (related to the uptime tsukhna) appears in the
chronicle of Nestor (1113) as one of the nations which "invited" Rurik
to "keep order" in Staraya Ladoga; the other nations were Slovens,
Krivitsch, Merja and Vepsä, and as you know, the last two are
Fenno-Ugrian. Nestor also states that Valgetjärvi, aka Beloozero, had
traditionally been the centre of Ves' (Vepsä); the fact is that
archeological excavations have revealed a fortified town by the river
Sheksna, 15 kilometres from the city of Beloozersk, which fits the
description. Probably a centre of the fur trade.
If you remember the HS millenium issue which described the parish of
Lastunen in the year 1000 AD, you also remember that the author
mentioned that the Norse travelers had most likely learned the
waterways of the Northeastern Russia from Fennic sources. (The same
paper also mentioned that Tavastians were earning a fair reputation in
sorcery by selling "wind and good weather" for the Danish and Swedish
mariners passing the Gulf of Finland at the time of the Y1K).
Cheers,
Jalonen
Fredrik :Ostman
| 4) When the "Finns" saw Vikings they described them with a word which
| described what was distinctive in them,
Why did they do this in (Pakko-?)Swedish?
--
______ _~
(_/_ _ _ _/) _ . /) / ) , _/) _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_ (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Tapio
news:a2ot2k$b9i$1...@news.siemens.at:
> Why did they do this in (Pakko-?)Swedish?
(LOL)
It must have been because the captain was yelling to the sweating crew ro!
ro! ro! while the Finns sailed by trying to-while having nothing else to
do-come up with funny names.
Fredrik :Ostman
| Finns sailed by
+-
Finnish vessels from the Viking age are renowned world-wide for their
beauty and sailability. Hence "Vem kan ro utan åror?"
Markku Huttu-Hiltunen
Tapio wrote:
> .
> 4) When the "Finns" saw Vikings they described them with a word which
> described what was distinctive in them, that is, different from what they
> themselves were.
This is not neccessary: Both could have rowed and sailed similarily, but
because the Finns saw the Vikings moving only by boats (rowing and sailing),
they could have given the name just because of that.
>
> 5) If rowing was this distictive feature, it has to mean that the "Finns"
> themselves didn't row but sailed (that being the only alternative unless
> they swam or something)
>
I would not draw this conclusion.
MHH
Val
Snip
As stated in another thread: No. BOTH Ruotsi and Rus->Rossia comes from
the same origin that is "Ros". Today this is Roslagen. If this *in
reallity* has anything to do with "pakko-Swedish" :-)) "Ro" (to row)
is AFAIK not at all clear. This word could as well be pre-IE in Sweden,
as is the case with some geographical names [some newer theories
indicates this was probably an Uralic language, i.e proto Feno-Ugric!]
V.
Danne Palm
news:3C50047D...@pp.htv.fi...
I would guess that the Finns only tryed to say "Roslagen" or someting
like that.
And as u know the foringe words that get adopted in to a language most
of the time
get changed to fitt in. Just look at the Finnish word for Germany,
Saxian something.
What the word Roslagen origions from is as most things unserten.
Dan Palm
Scania, Sweden.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Ville Keiho
>
> 1) The etymology of the word Russia in the beginning of this post is
> correct.
Finnish peoples at shores of Laatokka (Vepsä) still call us "west-finns"
_ruotsilainen_. The Reason is quite simple, they only saw us rowing. It's
hard to get ahead on the rivers if you dont row. I dont think that _ruotsi_
was no etnonyme, rather a professional term ie. trader, traveller or perhaps
even a soldier of somekind (varangian).
Tapio
> As stated in another thread: No. BOTH Ruotsi and Rus->Rossia comes from
> the same origin that is "Ros". Today this is Roslagen. If this *in
> reallity* has anything to do with "pakko-Swedish" :-)) "Ro" (to row)
> is AFAIK not at all clear. This word could as well be pre-IE in Sweden,
> as is the case with some geographical names [some newer theories
> indicates this was probably an Uralic language, i.e proto Feno-Ugric!]
I've got a hypothesis for that one, too. Moscow (Moskva) is "Finnish" and
means-I apologize-shitty river (Moskavirta). Roslagen on the other hand
resembles very much the word roskaläjä which means a pile of rubbish. Now
while the ancestors of the Finns sailed quite a lot in their elegant yachts
(this I explained earlier) they didn't seem to like the places they visited
(particularly when they saw that other nationalities were rowing around in
their pathetic rowboats). After a while they would say something like
"Paska paikka, mennään kotiin" (Shitty place, let's go home).
Tapio
news:d1a4595a.02012...@posting.google.com:
>> "Rus comes from the Finnish name for Sweden, Ruotsi.....
>
> I think that Jones has made a mishap here. It'd be more accurate to
> state that both the names "Ruotsi" and "Rus" come from the same
> origin, which is believed to be Roslagen.
See http://www.hum.gu.se/arkiv/ONN/1996/ONN.01/0494.html
(Sorry, only in Swedish or some other obscure languages:-)
There seems to be at least three studies from 1990s supporting the view
presented in Jones' book. I'm surprised! I thought that the theory can't be
true.
Kari Yli-Kuha
news:7d224d086b553f97bb3...@mygate.mailgate.org...
...
> I would guess that the Finns only tryed to say "Roslagen" or someting
> like that.
> And as u know the foringe words that get adopted in to a language most
> of the time
> get changed to fitt in. Just look at the Finnish word for Germany,
> Saxian something.
"Saksa" - from "Sachsen", very old loan.
> What the word Roslagen origions from is as most things unserten.
How about "Tyskland" ?
/C
Fredrik :Ostman
| How about "Tyskland" ?
+-
Same as "Deutschland", the land of the clear (tydlig, deutlich) ones,
i.e. the people who speak German (Deutsch).
Val
Värend is a part of Småland (as Ros(lagen) is a part
of Uppland). A Varangian is a Väring, originally meaning
a person from Värend. Värend was a semi-independent
Bailiwick until the early middle ages. A great rebellion
took place under Nils Dacke during the 14:th centaury.
Rus/Ros/Ruotsi is of far more unclear origin.
A Viking is /perhaps/ originally a person from Viken (old
name of South-East Norway). The thing about Viking is
(of unclear reasons) not a major theory about the origination
of the term "Viking".
V.
Ville Keiho
"viking". Here's one for you:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/EARLYFIN.HTM
Kuussaari claims that the word Varangian comes from the Finnish word
"vara/vartio" which in Finnish means "guard" and "Vaara" means "danger" or
"hill." Fires were lit on hills which were part of their early warning
system. It worked very effectively and they became known as Varangians. The
Finnish epic poem Kalevala mentions these people, their activities and
vaaras where they lit fires. Place names with "vara" stems were located in
the Varangians' domain. The prefix was extensively used in the coastal and
island areas controlled by Finnish tribes who had adopted the Swedish
seafaring ways that included ships with oarsmen. For example: Varangin
vuono, Varjag vuoda in Lapp; Varangin niemi; Vargava, Varanka, Varanpää
(Lokalahti); Vargata, Varjakka, Varkal, and many others. They were soldier
traders who travelled all the way to the Volga to trade with the Bolgarians,
and beyond. (Kuussaari, 1935) The var word, according to Thomsen comes from
the old Swedish word var=faithful, but Kuussaari does not agree that this
meaning is connected with the word. The Vikings too were faithful, but they
never were referred to by that term. The var word is therefore connected
with guarding .
Rgds,
Ville
"Val" <val...@hotmail.com> kirjoitti
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John Magne Trane
But we'll probably never know until somone can dig up a vhs showing them
crossing the border to soon-to-become Russia, will we? ;)
JMT
"Ville Keiho" <wil...@justice.com> wrote in message
news:a3md02$20n$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
> I have heard that theory before, though it's just a theory as much as the
> "viking". Here's one for you:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/EARLYFIN.HTM
>
> Kuussaari claims that the word Varangian comes from the Finnish word
> "vara/vartio" which in Finnish means "guard" and "Vaara" means "danger" or
> "hill."
8< >8
Ville Keiho
propably only had vhs ;)
Ville
"John Magne Trane" <joh...@stud.cs.uit.no> kirjoitti
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