Scandinavia [Was: Re: "You should understand..."]

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Leif Romell

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Nov 8, 1993, 8:01:21 PM11/8/93
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alah...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti A Lahelma) writes:

+--------------------------------------
|...
|doubt there is any difference at all between Finland and America in this
|repect (nothing very important anyway). Scandinavians in general tend to be
|...
+--------------------------------------

I thought we had been through this. Finland is NOT a part of Scandinavia.

Scandinavia: Denmark
Norway
Sweden

The Nordic countries: Denmark
Finland
Iceland
Norway
Sweden

I just wanted to make that clear to all non-Scandinavians reading this group;
if you did not intend to convey the notion that it was, Antti, I apologize.
Anyway, that's how I interpreted your posting.

Peace, Leif

_______________________________________________________________________________

Leif Romell
15 Jacksway Crescent #409 Voice: (519) 858-1707
London, ONT Email: l4ro...@sms.business.uwo.ca
CANADA N5X 3T8

"It's better to burn out - than to fade away..."

Jarmo Ryyti

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Nov 11, 1993, 7:49:39 AM11/11/93
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Leif Romell (l4ro...@sms.business.uwo.ca) wrote:
: alah...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti A Lahelma) writes:

: I thought we had been through this. Finland is NOT a part of Scandinavia.

You mean gegraphically:

: Scandinavia: Denmark
: Norway
: Sweden

What about people? Who are Scandinavians? Who are the minorities
living in Sweden and Norway like the Saamis and the Finns? If people
living in Scandinavia, gegraphically, are Scandinavians, so
the Saamis of Sweden are Scandinavians as well as the Sweden-Finns or
Norway's Saamis. What is the defination?

: The Nordic countries: Denmark
: Finland
: Iceland
: Norway
: Sweden

Are people in these countries "Nordics" or what? Pohjoismaalaisia in Finnish
anyway.
jarmo

Eugene Holman

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Nov 11, 1993, 1:29:17 PM11/11/93
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In article <yc4Pcc...@sms.business.uwo.ca>, l4ro...@sms.business.uwo.ca
(Leif Romell) wrote:


> I thought we had been through this. Finland is NOT a part of Scandinavia.
>
> Scandinavia: Denmark
> Norway
> Sweden
>
> The Nordic countries: Denmark
> Finland
> Iceland
> Norway
> Sweden
>

Aeronavic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as 'the countries that run SAS Airline', then
Denamrk, Norway, and Sweden are Scandinavia.

Geographical definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries located on the Scandinavian
peninsula then Norway and Denmark are Scandinavia.

Heraldric definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries with flags which are variations
on the Dannebrog then Iceland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, Denmark,
Finland, Åland, Ingermanland (!), and Karelia (!!!!!!) are Scandinavia.

Iscythophagic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where people eat pickled herring
whenever they have the opportunity then Iceland, the Faroes, Norway,
Sweden, Denmark, Finland,and Åland are Scandinavia.

Sociopolitical definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where Social-Democratic-style
welfare states were etsablished and flourished up until about 1990, then
Iceland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and Åland are
Scandinavia.

Restrictive linguistic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where languages descended from
Old Norse are spoken as the majority language then Iceland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Åland are Scandinavia.

Liberal linguistic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where languages descended from
Old Norse are spoken by a significant segment of the indigenous population
and have official status then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway,
Sweden, Denmark, Åland and Finland are Scandinavia.

Architectural definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where functionalism plays a
major role in design and architecture then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Åland and Finland are Scandinavia.

Mulieroliberitarian definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where women's liberation has
been more or less taken for granted at least since the end of the past-war
period then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Åland
and Finland are Scandinavia.

Numismatic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries which use crowns and ores as
their currencies then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, and
Denmark are Scandinavia.

Alcohol-political definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where society tries to make you
feel guilty if you want to have a nip then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, Åland and Finland are Scandinavia.

Nordic union definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where you can move from country
to country without your passport being inspected if you are fair-haired and
blue-eyed then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, Åland and
Finland are Scandinavia.

Imperialistic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries in northern Europe which are or
have been under the rule of a herring-eating, vodka-drinking, singing or
coughing-language speaking country, where children tend to have names
ending in -son/-sen (or -dotter) then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Åland, Finland, Ingermanland, Karelia, Estonia, as
well as the Virgin Islands, St. Eustacia, Delaware, northern Minnesota, the
northern peninsula of Michigan, van Etten, New York; Bay Ridge, Broooklyn;
Lake Worth, Florida; Los Pacos, Spain; Kalinin, Russia; a considerable part
of Mallorca, Spain; Rhodes, Greece; as well as considerable chunks of
Namibia and Ghana are or have been Scandinavia.

I certainly consider southern Finland, where Swedish is spoken to some
degree, people eat tons of pickled herring, drink vast amounts of vodka,
often have names ending in -sson, are deconstructing a social-democratic
welfare state, gave women the vote almost a century ago, are totally blasé
about pronography, have an arrogant alcohol monopoly, salute a crossed
flag, like to read about the Swedish royal family, celebrate midsummer, eat
open-faced sandwiches with piles of prawns on them, are heavily into
functionalism, and generally mind their own business to be more Astrid
Lindgrenish than Dosteyevskian. Even the most obtuse person notices how
Scandinavian (at least southern) Finland is if he or she, after having
spent time in Helsinki, visits Stockholm, on the one hand, and Tallinn,
St. Petersburg, and Hamburg, on the other.

--
With best regards,
Eugene Holman
University of Helsinki

Antti A Lahelma

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Nov 11, 1993, 12:54:54 PM11/11/93
to

>I thought we had been through this.

Yeah, it's been discussed a couple of times here. *sigh*

>Finland is NOT a part of Scandinavia.

That's your idea, not shared by everyone else. My edition of Webster's,
for example, gives two definitions for "scandinavia", the other including
all five countries.

But I'm not in a mood to discuss this all over again.

Best regards,
--
Antti Lahelma GNOTHI SEAUTON "Tragedy is the farce that involves our
alah...@cc.helsinki.fi TUNNE ITSESI sympathies: farce is the tragedy that
University of Helsinki KNOW THYSELF happens to outsiders." --Aldous Huxley

J{rvinen Hannu-Matti

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Nov 12, 1993, 3:42:15 AM11/12/93
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In article <holman-11...@porsumac18.pc.helsinki.fi> hol...@katk.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) writes:
>Geographical definition:
>If Scandinavia is defined as the countries located on the Scandinavian
>peninsula then Norway and Denmark are Scandinavia.

You have nice definitions, but geographically these countries should
be Norway and Sweden, not Denmark. Either this definition that
includes only Sweden and Norway should be used, or define Scandinavia
to include all Nordic countries, as your other examples quite clearly
suggest.
--
-----
Hannu-Matti Jarvinen, h...@cs.tut.fi
Opinions of tut != opinions of mine, and vice versa.
TTKK on samaa mielt{ kanssani siit{, ett{ en edusta sen mielipidett{.

Bertil Jonell

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Nov 12, 1993, 10:21:22 AM11/12/93
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>Numismatic definition:
>If Scandinavia is defined as the countries which use crowns and ores as
>their currencies then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, and
>Denmark are Scandinavia.

One of the parts of former Chechoslovakia uses 'Kronor' nowadays I think.

>Eugene Holman

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."

Simon Tardell

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Nov 12, 1993, 2:30:18 PM11/12/93
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>In article <holman-11...@porsumac18.pc.helsinki.fi> hol...@katk.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) writes:
>>Numismatic definition:
>>If Scandinavia is defined as the countries which use crowns and ores as
>>their currencies then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, and
>>Denmark are Scandinavia.

> One of the parts of former Chechoslovakia uses 'Kronor' nowadays I think.

Czechia uses kronor (whatever that is in Czech) and I believe Slovakia does
too. It might have something to do with that the currency unit of the
Austrian-Hungarian empire was kronor (in German, I suppose). As someone
will soon point out: The name of the Estonian currency is kroon (or
something thither). Also, France as well as Britain have had coins
named Couronne/Crown.

--
Simon Tardell, Fysik, KTH, si...@nada.kth.se Våga vägra cgs!

Tapio Kortehisto

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Nov 14, 1993, 10:49:00 AM11/14/93
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In article <holman-11...@porsumac18.pc.helsinki.fi>
hol...@katk.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) writes:
>Geographical definition:
>If Scandinavia is defined as the countries located on the Scandinavian
>peninsula then Norway and Denmark are Scandinavia.

H-M.J{rvinen:
:You have nice definitions, but geographically these countries should


:be Norway and Sweden, not Denmark. Either this definition that
:includes only Sweden and Norway should be used, or define Scandinavia
:to include all Nordic countries, as your other examples quite clearly
:suggest.

Strictly geographically speaking Norway, Sweden *and* the northwestern
part of Finland are situated in the geographical Scandinavia, the
Scandinavian Peninsula.

So, a bit of Finland is a bit of Scandinavia.

Joakim Gustafsson

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Nov 15, 1993, 7:38:58 AM11/15/93
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In article <holman-11...@porsumac18.pc.helsinki.fi>,

hol...@katk.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) writes:
> In article <yc4Pcc...@sms.business.uwo.ca>, l4ro...@sms.business.uwo.ca
> (Leif Romell) wrote:
>
>
> > I thought we had been through this. Finland is NOT a part of Scandinavia.
> >
> > Scandinavia: Denmark
> > Norway
> > Sweden
> >
> > The Nordic countries: Denmark
> > Finland
> > Iceland
> > Norway
> > Sweden
> >
>
> Aeronavic definition:
> If Scandinavia is defined as 'the countries that run SAS Airline', then
> Denamrk, Norway, and Sweden are Scandinavia.
>
> Geographical definition:
> If Scandinavia is defined as the countries located on the Scandinavian
> peninsula then Norway and Denmark are Scandinavia.
>
-----
*I am quite sure that Norway and Sweden are located on the Scandinavian
*peninsula. Denmark is not!
-------

> Heraldric definition:
> If Scandinavia is defined as the countries with flags which are variations
> on the Dannebrog then Iceland, the Faroes, Norway, Sweden, Denmark,

inland, Åland, Ingermanland (!), and Karelia (!!!!!!) are Scandinavia.
>
> Iscythophagic definition:
> If Scandinavia is defined as the countries where people eat pickled herring

> enever they have the opportunity then Iceland, the Faroes, Nor

Well, in both Czechia and Slovakia korunas are used, but no oeres, as currency.


>
> --
> With best regards,
> Eugene Holman
> University of Helsinki


Why all these different definitions?
We all know that Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden and Denmark and the Nordic
countries ('Norden') are Norway, Sweden, Denmark (incl. Faroe Isl.) Iceland and
Finland (incl. Aaland).
/ Jocke.

Per Westerlund

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Nov 15, 1993, 12:42:48 PM11/15/93
to

An interesting explacation: You have to define at which level you look,
which criteria you use and how big differences are allowed.

Imperialistic definition:
If Scandinavia is defined as the countries in northern Europe which are or
have been under the rule of a herring-eating, vodka-drinking, singing or
coughing-language speaking country, where children tend to have names
ending in -son/-sen (or -dotter) then Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes,
Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Åland, Finland, Ingermanland, Karelia, Estonia, as
well as the Virgin Islands, St. Eustacia, Delaware, northern Minnesota, the
northern peninsula of Michigan, van Etten, New York; Bay Ridge, Broooklyn;
Lake Worth, Florida; Los Pacos, Spain; Kalinin, Russia; a considerable part
of Mallorca, Spain; Rhodes, Greece; as well as considerable chunks of
Namibia and Ghana are or have been Scandinavia.

I certainly consider southern Finland, where Swedish is spoken to some
degree, people eat tons of pickled herring, drink vast amounts of vodka,
often have names ending in -sson, are deconstructing a social-democratic
welfare state, gave women the vote almost a century ago, are totally blasé
about pronography, have an arrogant alcohol monopoly, salute a crossed
flag, like to read about the Swedish royal family, celebrate midsummer, eat
open-faced sandwiches with piles of prawns on them, are heavily into
functionalism, and generally mind their own business to be more Astrid
Lindgrenish than Dosteyevskian. Even the most obtuse person notices how
Scandinavian (at least southern) Finland is if he or she, after having
spent time in Helsinki, visits Stockholm, on the one hand, and Tallinn,
St. Petersburg, and Hamburg, on the other.

The comparison are important to clear the criteria: For example, the
Finlandswedes in Eskilstuna understood how Finnish they were when then
moved to Sweden.

--
With best regards,
Eugene Holman
University of Helsinki

Per Westerlund
pe...@elixir.e.kth.se

Per Westerlund

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Nov 15, 1993, 12:48:08 PM11/15/93
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In article <2btcd3$7...@tukki.cc.jyu.fi> ry...@network.cc.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:


Leif Romell (l4ro...@sms.business.uwo.ca) wrote:
: alah...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti A Lahelma) writes:

: I thought we had been through this. Finland is NOT a part of Scandinavia.

You mean gegraphically:

: Scandinavia: Denmark
: Norway
: Sweden

What about people? Who are Scandinavians? Who are the minorities
living in Sweden and Norway like the Saamis and the Finns? If people
living in Scandinavia, gegraphically, are Scandinavians, so
the Saamis of Sweden are Scandinavians as well as the Sweden-Finns or
Norway's Saamis. What is the defination?

Look at your own country first:

finl{ndare = finlandsvenskar + finnar

I think that the Estonians and Russians have similar definition for
themselves and people living in their state. There is not such a
duality for Scandinavians.

Why didn't you mention the Finlandsswedes?

: The Nordic countries: Denmark
: Finland
: Iceland
: Norway
: Sweden

Are people in these countries "Nordics" or what? Pohjoismaalaisia in Finnish
anyway.
jarmo

If the English language have no word for it, we will have to invent
one, if we feel that the concept is relevant. "Nordics" seems good to
me.

Per Westerlund
pe...@elixir.e.kth.se


Jarmo Ryyti

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Nov 16, 1993, 6:34:29 AM11/16/93
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Joakim Gustafsson (i90j...@rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de) wrote:
: Why all these different definitions?

: We all know that Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden and Denmark and the Nordic
: countries ('Norden') are Norway, Sweden, Denmark (incl. Faroe Isl.) Iceland and
: Finland (incl. Aaland).
: / Jocke.
About definations:

BTW Finland and Mexico had once a common land border.

jarmo

Torsten Poulin Nielsen

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Nov 21, 1993, 8:33:29 AM11/21/93
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i90j...@rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joakim Gustafsson) writes:

<<< Lots of stuff deleted >>>

>-----
>*I am quite sure that Norway and Sweden are located on the Scandinavian
>*peninsula. Denmark is not!
>-------

Well, it used to be. Have you ever heard about Halland, Skaane, and Blekinge?
Or, for that matter, the former kingdom of Denmark-Norway?

<<< more stuff removed >>>

>/ Jocke.

- Torsten
--
Torsten Poulin Nielsen, stud.scient. | "Technological man can't
DIKU (Dept. of Computer Science) | believe in anything that
University of Copenhagen, Denmark | can't be measured, taped,
email: <tor...@diku.dk> | or put into a computer."

Eugene Holman

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Nov 21, 1993, 12:19:26 PM11/21/93
to
In article <1993Nov21.1...@odin.diku.dk>, tor...@diku.dk (Torsten
Poulin Nielsen) wrote:

> i90j...@rbg.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joakim Gustafsson) writes:
>
> <<< Lots of stuff deleted >>>
>
> >-----
> >*I am quite sure that Norway and Sweden are located on the Scandinavian
> >*peninsula. Denmark is not!
> >-------
>

This discussion began because of a type I made in a posting a few weeks
ago. Of course I meant then that Norway and Sweden are located on the
Scandinavian peninsula.

> Well, it used to be. Have you ever heard about Halland, Skaane, and Blekinge?
> Or, for that matter, the former kingdom of Denmark-Norway?

But having done some more reading on the origins of the word Scandinavia, I
find that the word Skaane also contains the same intial element. The shores
of the O/resund, then, would be the 'dangerous shores' which the word
originally seems to have designated.

____________________

Torsten Poulin Nielsen

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Nov 23, 1993, 10:39:48 AM11/23/93
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hol...@katk.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) writes:
>But having done some more reading on the origins of the word Scandinavia, I
>find that the word Skaane also contains the same intial element. The shores
>of the O/resund, then, would be the 'dangerous shores' which the word
>originally seems to have designated.

I did have a feeling that the words Scandinavia and Skaane contain the
same initial element. After all, the latinized form of the latter is
Scania (I think). But I didn't know what that element meant.

If the word Scandinavia is derived from the word Skaane, that province
must once have played a very important, maybe even dominant, role.

(But I find it strange that such a role isn't reflected in the Nordic
languages. They only know of Norden or Nordlandende. And the pre-12th
century (give or take a century) language was refered to as either
"dansk" or "norroent".)

What is the ethymology of the initial element? Was the term used by
classical writers or is it a newer "invention"? Does the word/element
still live in some form in the modern Scandinavian languages, apart
from the previously mentioned examples?

>With best regards,
>Eugene Holman
>University of Helsinki

With the hope that this will bring new, and more interesting, life to
an otherwise derailed discussion :)

- Torsten, admitting that he also had his share in the derailing...

K. Roland Larsson

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Nov 23, 1993, 8:31:33 PM11/23/93
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In <1993Nov23....@odin.diku.dk> tor...@diku.dk (Torsten Poulin
Nielsen) writes:

> If the word Scandinavia is derived from the word Skaane, that province
> must once have played a very important, maybe even dominant, role.
>
> (But I find it strange that such a role isn't reflected in the Nordic
> languages. They only know of Norden or Nordlandende. And the pre-12th
> century (give or take a century) language was refered to as either
> "dansk" or "norroent".)

> --
> Torsten Poulin Nielsen, stud.scient. | "Technological man can't
> DIKU (Dept. of Computer Science) | believe in anything that
> University of Copenhagen, Denmark | can't be measured, taped,
> email: <tor...@diku.dk> | or put into a computer."

This is just a guess:

If Scandinavia (and Scania) is originally from latin, then whoever coined
those names was probably from central or south Europe. Skane ('Scania') is
the part on the peninsula that is closest to continental Europe, and
possibly the only part they knew (or cared) about back then.

Roland

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