Somali Vikings in Pippi's Vinland??
Jorma Kypp|
............. ;)
Jorma Kypp|
Laukaa
Finland
Arne Kolstad
Jorma Kypp| wrote:
> Just great, isn't it?
>
> ............. ;)
Yes. Maybe there are too few Nordic issues to keep a group occupied. The
torturing of Finns in Norway and Sweden may be the only present day
Inter-Nordic issue ever discussed here. How about reposting some of the
old recipies and travel diaries? Or addresses to distinguished companies
in central Finland?
By the way, I just returned from summer holidays home in Porsanger. Four
weeks in intense sunshine and 20-25 degrees every day. Former Kvens had
transformed themselves into Sames (that's the Nordic part of this
posting).
Fished salmon, watched berries be conceived, born and growing up,
scratched mosquito bites, painting the house. Eating and drinking
adequately for an uninterrupted hum. Have been reflecting over declaring
myself disabled and moving there for good. Maybe next year. Looked at
the rock-carvings in Alta. New sites, older (10000 years+), have been
found on Sørøya (no, not the former Persian queen) and Magerøya near
Honningsvåg. Clearly of Norwegian origin.
Recipy for vodka sandwich: Thin slice of bread cut in two. Place one
half carefully on top of the other. Throw in mixer with contents of one
bottle of vodka. Spin for 10 seconds. Serve at room temperature.
Back to "work".
Arne
--
arne.k...@isaf.no http://www.isaf.no/NOVA/
NOVA (Norwegian Social Research) phone (+47)22541200
Munthes gate 29, 0260 Oslo fax (+47)22541201
Jorma Kypp|
> Fished salmon, watched berries be conceived, born and growing up,
> scratched mosquito bites, painting the house. Eating and drinking
> adequately for an uninterrupted hum. Have been reflecting over declaring
> myself disabled and moving there for good. Maybe next year. Looked at
> the rock-carvings in Alta. New sites, older (10000 years+), have been
> found on Sørøya (no, not the former Persian queen) and Magerøya near
> Honningsvåg. Clearly of Norwegian origin.
Just few words about the rock figures.
The oldest ones in Nordic countries and Fennoscandia indeed can be found
close the Arctic Sea on the nothest point of Norway (excluding the
islands). The reason for this absurd thing was also the Glacial Age.
When the rest of "Nordia" was covered by ice and later by water,
the northest coast was free because of the Golf Stream. There was a route,
but a narrow and difficult one from eastwards, where the people
could have wondered there. We use to call these people as "protosami",
what kind they were in fact, that is something we can only estimate.
Interesting is, that also the British Isles were connected with
Norway by ice during those times.
The culture these rock carvers had is today called as Komsa culture,
southwards the nearest as old culture can be found in present Estonia.
If these two had any connections we, or at least I ;), don't know.
However, Komsa people were quite an isolated group far north, and
in case they were the forefathers of present Sami, it could explain
the unique of Sami heritage in Europe. In general sami are probably
the oldest European people after Basque.
I personally have been sometimes thinking who were the people,
that inhabited Ireland and other British Isles before Kelts
(or Pictians). I do remember a short article I read a long
time ago, which told, that these people were "dark and short,
great magicians, who were living in caves, the name Eire
was from their language ("elan") and the meaning was the god
of sun". About references I do know nothing?
Then few words about rock *carvings* and *paintings*. Because of
some reason rock carvings has not been found (or at least
no remarkable) in Finland (I mean Stone Age carvings), only in
Norway, Sweden(?) and especially in Karelia.
But in Finland there has been found a lot of rock paintings made
by red okra. Same kind of paintings are also in other Fennoscandian
countries and the oldest of them are ca. 6000 years old.
Today, probably the oldest rock paintings in fennoscandia and
Nordic countries can be found in central Finland in Laukaa.
They are called Saraakallio paintings. "Kallio" = rock, but
the ethymology of "saraa" has got different interpretations.
Earlier it was assumed mistakenly to be "sara", which is a kind
of water plant. The word "saraa" probably comes from "sarajas"
meaning the "prime ocean" or other relative things.
Jorma kyppo
Laukaa
Finland
Arne Kolstad
Jorma Kypp| wrote:
> Just few words about the rock figures.
> The oldest ones in Nordic countries and Fennoscandia indeed can be found
> close the Arctic Sea on the nothest point of Norway (excluding the
> islands). The reason for this absurd thing was also the Glacial Age.
> When the rest of "Nordia" was covered by ice and later by water,
> the northest coast was free because of the Golf Stream. There was a route,
> but a narrow and difficult one from eastwards, where the people
> could have wondered there. We use to call these people as "protosami",
> what kind they were in fact, that is something we can only estimate.
And there is this ethnopolitical argument, well known but worth repeating,
that today's Sames probably have ancestors from a lot of places, and that
"culture", even when unintrerrupted links are found, may have little in common
with its ancestors thousands of years back. Today's Sames, one may argue, have
more (artefacts, words and other symbols, cosmology, etc.) in common with the
average New Yorker than with Sames a few generations ago. Ancestral links and
history are stimulating and interesting topics, sometimes unavoidable in
ethnopolitical discussions. On the other hand, concepts like "proto-XXXXX"
are tempting to spin nationalistic myths around. History explains some of
oureselves, but oftentimes, the way we invent and teach historical myths is
more powerful.
> Interesting is, that also the British Isles were connected with
> Norway by ice during those times.
> The culture these rock carvers had is today called as Komsa culture,
> southwards the nearest as old culture can be found in present Estonia.
> If these two had any connections we, or at least I ;), don't know.
> However, Komsa people were quite an isolated group far north, and
> in case they were the forefathers of present Sami, it could explain
> the unique of Sami heritage in Europe. In general sami are probably
> the oldest European people after Basque.
>
> I personally have been sometimes thinking who were the people,
> that inhabited Ireland and other British Isles before Kelts
> (or Pictians). I do remember a short article I read a long
> time ago, which told, that these people were "dark and short,
> great magicians, who were living in caves, the name Eire
> was from their language ("elan") and the meaning was the god
> of sun". About references I do know nothing?
The sun (Baeivi) was a powerful force (god) in the old Sami religion as well,
is that what you mean? So we can't exclude that there were some shared
cultural elements among Northern Europeans/Circumpolar groups of people
allready then.
> Then few words about rock *carvings* and *paintings*. Because of
> some reason rock carvings has not been found (or at least
> no remarkable) in Finland (I mean Stone Age carvings), only in
> Norway, Sweden(?) and especially in Karelia.
>
> But in Finland there has been found a lot of rock paintings made
> by red okra. Same kind of paintings are also in other Fennoscandian
> countries and the oldest of them are ca. 6000 years old.
>
> Today, probably the oldest rock paintings in fennoscandia and
> Nordic countries can be found in central Finland in Laukaa.
> They are called Saraakallio paintings. "Kallio" = rock, but
> the ethymology of "saraa" has got different interpretations.
> Earlier it was assumed mistakenly to be "sara", which is a kind
> of water plant. The word "saraa" probably comes from "sarajas"
> meaning the "prime ocean" or other relative things.
According to the presentations made of the carvings in Alta, some of them may
have
been painted as well as carved. All exhibited carvings were painted by the
museum in a red okra color.
A confession: I doubt that there are rock carvings found at the more recently
discovered island sites (yet), but it was so damned tempting to create that
misunderstanding due to ongoing discussions in Finnmark and to some extent
here, which, in silliness, measure up to that one of mine quite well.
For interested parties, check out publications from Tromsø museum:
http://www.imv.uit.no/publikas/publikas.htm
Kari Yli-Kuha
>And there is this ethnopolitical argument, well known but worth repeating,
>that today's Sames probably have ancestors from a lot of places, and that
>"culture", even when unintrerrupted links are found, may have little in common
>with its ancestors thousands of years back. Today's Sames, one may argue, have
>more (artefacts, words and other symbols, cosmology, etc.) in common with the
>average New Yorker than with Sames a few generations ago. Ancestral links and
>history are stimulating and interesting topics, sometimes unavoidable in
>ethnopolitical discussions. On the other hand, concepts like "proto-XXXXX"
>are tempting to spin nationalistic myths around. History explains some of
>oureselves, but oftentimes, the way we invent and teach historical myths is
>more powerful.
Well, the "proto-xxx" is still common in linguistics (cf. proto-Sami, proto-Finnish,
proto-Germanic etc.) - but I agree, perhaps the proto-thinking shouldn't
be applied so much to ethnicity. Of course it's easier to teach in schools
if things are simplified, but in Real Life (tm) things simply aren't that simple.
This is especially true when speaking about the Sámi - the more I've read
about the local Nordic history the more puzzled I've become :-)
If the Sámi were a more homogenous group things would be simpler,
but they aren't. What the different Sámi populations had in common
was the lifestyle - nowadays even that isn't true. Perhaps now it could
be said that the Sámi are a group of people separated by
a common language? :-)
(By "separated" I mean that the Sámi languages aren't mutually
compréhensible)
>The sun (Baeivi) was a powerful force (god) in the old Sami religion as well,
>is that what you mean? So we can't exclude that there were some shared
>cultural elements among Northern Europeans/Circumpolar groups of people
>allready then.
That's hardly surprising, especially north of polar circle.
>A confession: I doubt that there are rock carvings found at the more recently
>discovered island sites (yet), but it was so damned tempting to create that
>misunderstanding due to ongoing discussions in Finnmark and to some extent
>here, which, in silliness, measure up to that one of mine quite well.
You mean the note that they were "clearly of Norwegian origin" ? :-)
Would you consider the Fosna and Hensbacka finds further
south clearly Norwegian?
/Kari
Arne Kolstad
> Well, the "proto-xxx" is still common in linguistics (cf. proto-Sami, proto-Finnish,
> proto-Germanic etc.) - but I agree, perhaps the proto-thinking shouldn't
> be applied so much to ethnicity. Of course it's easier to teach in schools
> if things are simplified, but in Real Life (tm) things simply aren't that simple. This
> is especially true when speaking about the Sámi - the more I've readabout the local
> Nordic history the more puzzled I've become :-)
Teaching of historical "facts" with no emotions involved at all, is probably impossible
- if not for anything else, so because students would (justly) fall asleep. Something
they do anyway. A bit less nationalist enthusiasm would sometimes, though, speaking from
experience of my own childhood, foster more plausible ideas of hsitorical causes, and of
good and evil.
> If the Sámi were a more homogenous group things would be simpler,
> but they aren't. What the different Sámi populations had in common
> was the lifestyle - nowadays even that isn't true. Perhaps now it could
> be said that the Sámi are a group of people separated by
> a common language? :-)
>
> (By "separated" I mean that the Sámi languages aren't mutually
> compréhensible)
Same activists in Norway are getting more relaxed with respect to the "one people" idea.
Except for some (exactly 5) dyed-in-the-wool sixty-eighters who still argue for a Same
state.
> >The sun (Baeivi) was a powerful force (god) in the old Sami religion as well,
> >is that what you mean? So we can't exclude that there were some shared
> >cultural elements among Northern Europeans/Circumpolar groups of people
> >allready then.
>
> That's hardly surprising, especially north of polar circle.
Exactly. And especially since there probably hasn't been a single populated spot on
Earth that hasn't at some time seen worship of the Sun, even South of said circle.
> >A confession: I doubt that there are rock carvings found at the more recently
> >discovered island sites (yet), but it was so damned tempting to create that
> >misunderstanding due to ongoing discussions in Finnmark and to some extent
> >here, which, in silliness, measure up to that one of mine quite well.
> You mean the note that they were "clearly of Norwegian origin" ? :-)
That's correct. On the other hand, I received the information during the week-end that
there were rock carvings after all. So it balances out in the end. Sorry for the
confusion.
> Would you consider the Fosna and Hensbacka finds further
> south clearly Norwegian?
Seriously, no.
a) Norway as a political unit didn't exist until the year 885. I would guess that it
took even a bit longer until the concept caught on. (Norway is still tribal enough to
cast doubt on the concept of one "land", at least in the quite important joking
relationships. It's all an illusion. A clever one, though, made up by a Southern joker
(Harald Fairhair) to play tricks on us Nordlendingar.)
b) The genealogy of the Fosna people would be interesting to get documented, but mainly
from the perspective of a general interest in historical relationships. To me, it seems
increasingly morbid to claim a community with ancestors hundreds or even thousands of
years back. I think it would be a good thing if we could ease up on that kind of
emotions.
Bj|rn Olav Megard
<arne.k...@isaf.no> wrote:
> Same activists in Norway are getting more relaxed with respect to the "one
> people" idea.
And certainly some are not.
> Except for some (exactly 5) dyed-in-the-wool sixty-eighters who still argue
> for a Same state.
As I understand the situation many more argue that the Sámi are a
*people", i.e. *not* a *population* or a group of people(s), than tha said
5 who argue in favour of a Sámi state.
One attendener at the 1997 conference (landsmøte) of NSR (Norske Samers
Riksforbund, i.e. the largest Sámi political party in Norway), told me
that the leaders stressed this in their speeches: "People, not population"
("Folk, ikke befolkning").
<snip>
> To me, it seems increasingly morbid to claim a community with ancestors
> hundreds or even thousands of years back. I think it would be a good thing
> if we could ease up on that kind of emotions.
Yes!!!
But do you dare to write that in the local papers in Finnmark? ;-)
Regards,
Bjørn Olav
Jorma Kypp|
> Kari Yli-Kuha wrote:
> > Well, the "proto-xxx" is still common in linguistics (cf. proto-Sami, proto-Finnish,
> > proto-Germanic etc.) - but I agree, perhaps the proto-thinking shouldn't
> > be applied so much to ethnicity. Of course it's easier to teach in schools
What is the problem with "so much to ethnicity", the world is full of
different ethnical groups. The solution is not to "deny the existence of
diffrent ethnic groups, colours or races", but to accept them as they are.
If there is a *reason* to say "proto-same", then .. what is the problem?
I dare to assume, that there indeed exist a reason. In other case we would
use only geographical terms, as "proto nordic" or "proto fenniscandian".
But we use "proto Sami".
Why?
> > If the Sámi were a more homogenous group things would be simpler,
> > but they aren't. What the different Sámi populations had in common
> > was the lifestyle - nowadays even that isn't true. Perhaps now it could
> > be said that the Sámi are a group of people separated by
> > a common language? :-)
I have heard that:) So... Sami are almost like Germans....:)
> > (By "separated" I mean that the Sámi languages aren't mutually
> > compréhensible)
Yep.
> > >The sun (Baeivi) was a powerful force (god) in the old Sami religion as well,
> > >is that what you mean?
As a mater of fact, no. Sun as god is very common. I didn't mean anything
especial with my Ireland comment, it was more a question.
Though, naturally "dark people and great magicians" gives also for me
some kind of idea about a possible Sami connection..
> That's correct. On the other hand, I received the information during the week-end that
> there were rock carvings after all. So it balances out in the end. Sorry for the
> confusion.
> > Would you consider the Fosna and Hensbacka finds further
> > south clearly Norwegian?
> Seriously, no.
--
> b) The genealogy of the Fosna people would be interesting to get documented, but mainly
> from the perspective of a general interest in historical relationships. To me, it seems
> increasingly morbid to claim a community with ancestors hundreds or even thousands of
> years back. I think it would be a good thing if we could ease up on that kind of
> emotions.
I also like to remind, that Alta rock carvings were made some 3000 - 5000
years before the indoeuropean languages did reach Europe...
Jorma Kyppo
Laukaa
Finland
Bj|rn Olav Megard
Kypp|) wrote:
> If there is a *reason* to say "proto-same", then .. what is the problem?
>
> I dare to assume, that there indeed exist a reason. In other case we would
> use only geographical terms, as "proto nordic" or "proto fenniscandian".
> But we use "proto Sami".
> Why?
Among the different (some good, some bar, depending on taste) reasons,
there surely are some political ones!
.... History happened long ago, and cannot defend itself from
ethnopolitical or nationalistic misinterpretation. ;-)
<snip>
> I also like to remind, that Alta rock carvings were made some 3000 - 5000
> years before the indoeuropean languages did reach Europe...
And many years before a lot of other things, too. :) For instance: Many
years before the time of the first source referring too "Sámi" / "Sápmi",
AFAIK.
Maybe the carvings were made by "proto-Altaværinger"?
... or "proto-Finnmarkinger"? :)
Regards,
Bjørn Olav
Arne Kolstad
Bj|rn Olav Megard wrote:
> In article <35BC6EE3...@isaf.no>, Arne Kolstad
> <arne.k...@isaf.no> wrote:
>
> > Same activists in Norway are getting more relaxed with respect to the "one
> > people" idea.
>
> And certainly some are not.
>
> > Except for some (exactly 5) dyed-in-the-wool sixty-eighters who still argue
> > for a Same state.
>
> As I understand the situation many more argue that the Sámi are a
> *people", i.e. *not* a *population* or a group of people(s), than tha said
> 5 who argue in favour of a Sámi state.
>
> One attendener at the 1997 conference (landsmřte) of NSR (Norske Samers
> Riksforbund, i.e. the largest Sámi political party in Norway), told me
> that the leaders stressed this in their speeches: "People, not population"
> ("Folk, ikke befolkning").
Right. There certainly is a discussion going on, and some may have found present
attitudes a bit too laid back. The backdrop for my comment cited above, was the
hostile stances taken during the late seventies to early eighties, when Same
nationalism flourished at its greatest. Maybe I should be more careful with my
choice of words. My point is not to declare the experience of ethnicity or
nationality as dead or that I absolutely want it to be dead. It's just that I
developed an allergy during that time, so please be patient with my rash
comments.
> <snip>
>
> > To me, it seems increasingly morbid to claim a community with ancestors
> > hundreds or even thousands of years back. I think it would be a good thing
> > if we could ease up on that kind of emotions.
>
> Yes!!!
>
> But do you dare to write that in the local papers in Finnmark? ;-)
I used to write in local papers until my father in an open-hearted communication
told me that it would be a quite good idea to add "d.a.y., Tromsř" to my
signature.
I don't think my attitude is terribly controversial among Same "ethnics". Old
Norwegians are probably more difficult to convince.
Bj|rn Olav Megard
> > > To me, it seems increasingly morbid to claim a community with ancestors
> > > hundreds or even thousands of years back. I think it would be a good thing
> > > if we could ease up on that kind of emotions.
<snip>
> I don't think my attitude is terribly controversial among Same "ethnics".
If it were so well....
I.e. the Sámi president wouldn't find it controversial. But I could name
several other Sámi "etnhics" who certainly would. And I think some would
call you several not very nice things... ;-)
> Old Norwegians are probably more difficult to convince.
No objection.
Regards,
Bjørn Olav
Arne Kolstad
Bj|rn Olav Megard wrote:
> In article <35BDA3D...@isaf.no>, Arne Kolstad <arne.k...@isaf.no> wrote:
> I don't think my attitude is terribly controversial among Same "ethnics".
> If it were so well....
>
> I.e. the Sámi president wouldn't find it controversial. But I could name
> several other Sámi "etnhics" who certainly would. And I think some would
> call you several not very nice things... ;-)
We have different baselines. As long as my handkerchief stays unbloody, I call it
progress :)
I wasn't thinking so much about the president and other academic types (among whom
you will find some of the scariest as well as the more relaxed). It's just that
everyday encounters seem to go easier than before. There are obviously conflicts and
conflicting views today, but the old repression and hostility was harder to live
with, emotionally. It is now more realistic to work for open discussions about the
status of nationality than before.
Thinking about it, I wouldn't expect to be called not very nice things either. Not
based on my ethnopolitic opinions.
Bj|rn Olav Megard
<arne.k...@isaf.no> wrote:
<snip>
> > I.e. the Sámi president wouldn't find it controversial. But I could name
> > several other Sámi "etnhics" who certainly would. And I think some would
> > call you several not very nice things... ;-)
>
> We have different baselines. As long as my handkerchief stays unbloody,
I call it
> progress :)
:)
<snip>
> Thinking about it, I wouldn't expect to be called not very nice things
either. > Not based on my ethnopolitic opinions.
:) Certainly not based on your ethnopolitic opinions. (Revealed in this ng
earlier this year, btw.)
But thinking of this statement of yours (to which I completely agree!),
from earlier in this thread ... :
[Arne:] To me, it seems increasingly morbid to claim a community
with ancestors hundreds or even thousands of years back.
If said by someone whose ethnopolitical opinions is not known, it would
easily provoke quite a few of my Sámi acquaintances. :)
No big deal. Still, such things need to be said! Politics should primarily
be based in contemporary reality (and evt. *recent* history).
Regards,
Bjørn Olav
Hans Kristian Ruud
Arne Kolstad <arne.k...@isaf.no> wrote in article
<35B5B8E6...@isaf.no>...
SNIP
> Recipy for vodka sandwich: Thin slice of bread cut in two. Place one
> half carefully on top of the other. Throw in mixer with contents of one
> bottle of vodka. Spin for 10 seconds. Serve at room temperature.
>
Actually, this is known as the "snow-scooter sandwich".
Created by Ante Valente, the great Sami chef.
> Back to "work".