Are Norwegians Loud?
Richard Wiggett
Norwegian tourists and I noticed they were very abrupt and loud
indeed. They barged onto the train and asked quite firmly and
without reservation, "is this train going to Bath?" and again when
they didn't get a clear answer. They asked some other questions to
some other people when the train moved off, and they were still
being as loud as ever, interrupting, intervening, interfering and
asking questions with no reservation. Are all Norwegian people like
this, or is this a unique characteristic they develop when traveling
abroad? Just wondering.
--
Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk Fone#: +44 973 848356
----------------------- PHAX#: +44 1222 549878 (5-10pm UK time)
Real courage comes only from Holland.
Nick Johnson
well-behaved person make when asking directions? 2. Shouldn't someone
asking questions expect an answer of some kind?
Gunnar Blix
>Are all Norwegian people like
>this, or is this a unique characteristic they develop when traveling
>abroad? Just wondering.
Are all Brits this stuffy and arrogant, or is this a unique
characteristic they develop when they hang out in soc.culture.nordic?
Oh, yeah, just in case:
:-)
:-)
:-)
--
Gunnar Blix bl...@cs.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois http://www-ilg.ai.uiuc.edu/~blix/
Nothing so ridiculous but some philosopher has said it. -- Cicero
Tony Gaunt
In article <165437...@gerrit.demon.co.uk>, Richard Wiggett (ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk) writes:
>On the train between Bristol and Bath yesterday, I saw these two
>Norwegian tourists and I noticed they were very abrupt and loud
>indeed. They barged onto the train and asked quite firmly and
>without reservation, "is this train going to Bath?" and again when
>they didn't get a clear answer. They asked some other questions to
>some other people when the train moved off, and they were still
>being as loud as ever, interrupting, intervening, interfering and
>abroad? Just wondering.
>
>Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
>ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk Fone#: +44 973 848356
>----------------------- PHAX#: +44 1222 549878 (5-10pm UK time)
Well, you've obviously never observed Brits abroad - they are at
least twice as worserer!
Apart from that, being 'firm and without reservation' is not
wrong. Not British, certainly, but not wrong.
Before making criticisms about other nationals' behaviour in the
UK, I would certainly recommend taking a close look at the behaviour
of Brits in other countries! In general, not much to be proud of
there!
Regards to all,
Tony (A Brit....sort of!)
Tony Gaunt * I know you believe you understand
Farnham, Surrey. UK. * what you think I said but I am
to...@hrdint.win-uk.net * not sure you realise that what
* you heard is not what I meant!
Cynthia Shiang-sheng Smith
In article <165437...@gerrit.demon.co.uk>, Richard Wiggett <ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk> writes:
> On the train between Bristol and Bath yesterday, I saw these two
> Norwegian tourists and I noticed they were very abrupt and loud
> indeed. They barged onto the train and asked quite firmly and
> without reservation, "is this train going to Bath?" and again when
> they didn't get a clear answer. They asked some other questions to
> some other people when the train moved off, and they were still
> being as loud as ever, interrupting, intervening, interfering and
> asking questions with no reservation. Are all Norwegian people like
> this, or is this a unique characteristic they develop when traveling
> abroad? Just wondering.
They were most likely drunk.
--Cynthia S. Smith
http://www.ifi.uio.no/~cynthias
Simen Gaure
Well, you've obviously never observed Brits abroad - they are at
least twice as worserer!
Nah, that's the football hooligans, they're not representativish.
The problem with Brits abroad appears when they can't get proper beer,
only lager. Lager is too gassy so the Brit can't drink it as
fast as he's used to. This generally results in stomach pains,
discomfort, and in severe cases, complete disorder in the pub.
The only cure is to wave the Union Jack, sing "Rule Britannia" and
"God Save the Queen" in a very firm and loud voice, show him a
picture of the Queen's mother followed by moderate amounts of Scotch.
This puts him in Empire mood, he will soon start quoting Yeats
and be manageable for the rest of his stay.
--
Simen Gaure, Department of Mathematics, University of Oslo
Simen Gaure
On the train between Bristol and Bath yesterday, I saw these two
Norwegian tourists and I noticed they were very abrupt and loud
indeed. They barged onto the train and asked quite firmly and
without reservation, "is this train going to Bath?" and again when
they didn't get a clear answer. They asked some other questions to
some other people when the train moved off, and they were still
being as loud as ever, interrupting, intervening, interfering and
asking questions with no reservation. Are all Norwegian people like
this, or is this a unique characteristic they develop when traveling
abroad? Just wondering.
Are you sure they were sober?
There's a lot of excellent and cheap beer in England, and even
more good pubs. (Though I don't know about Bristol in particular,
the nearest I know is Eastbourne and a pub called "Diplox" or something,
I haven't been there in 17 years.)
Anyway, in the likely event that these gentlemen were
heading for Bath, isn't it reasonable that they asked
whether the train goes there? It's also possible that
these gentlemen were in need of a bath, and became
slightly disoriented when they figured out that English
bathtubs look exactly like trains.
Indeed sir, you're no better yourself, you rush into
this forum and ask questions concerning general characteristics
about Norwegians, quite firmly and without reservation.
But, I agree, the behaviour you describe seems a bit
unconventional on a train.
Steve Collier
>On the train between Bristol and Bath yesterday, I saw these two
>Norwegian tourists and I noticed they were very abrupt and loud
>abroad? Just wondering.
No they are not. And I wouldn't think much of Jacque Cousteau's views
on marine ethology if they were based on watching a goldfish in a bowl
for 10 minutes.
The closest I could come to your observation is in my experience in a
crowded situation they are less likely to meekly say excuse me, or just
quietly fume in a frustrated and powerless way (like the British) and
more likely to gently push through or put a hand gently against your back
and move you a little and walk through.
_____________________________________________^___________________________
Institutt for energiteknikk /|\ fax: +47 6918 7109
OECD Halden reactor project @ /|\ tel: +47 6918 3100
Postboks 173, 1751 Halden _<<\. '/|\` http://www.ife.no/
_Norway___________________________(*)/(*)__' | `___//www.external.hrp.no/
Henrik Ernoe
> On the train between Bristol and Bath yesterday, I saw these two
> Norwegian tourists and I noticed they were very abrupt and loud
> indeed. They barged onto the train and asked quite firmly and
> without reservation, "is this train going to Bath?" and again when
> they didn't get a clear answer. They asked some other questions to
> some other people when the train moved off, and they were still
> being as loud as ever, interrupting, intervening, interfering and
> asking questions with no reservation. Are all Norwegian people like
> this, or is this a unique characteristic they develop when traveling
> abroad? Just wondering.
Anyway, in the likely event that these gentlemen were
>heading for Bath, isn't it reasonable that they asked
>whether the train goes there? It's also possible that
>these gentlemen were in need of a bath, and became
>slightly disoriented when they figured out that English
>bathtubs look exactly like trains.
>
>But, I agree, the behaviour you describe seems a bit
>unconventional on a train.
Why you do think so? It was an *ENGLISH* train on its way to BATH.
Everybody *knows* that the English are true excentrics and often
like to behave in ways totally weird in the eyes of outsiders unaccostumed to their ways.
Since the Norwegians were no doubt brougth up by well educated
and polite parents, they would know that "When in Rome, do as the Romans". So I am sure that they felt that they were doing their
best to go native there on the train to Bath. They would never have
done so on a train to Bergen.
Henrik ernoe
Jean Gundersen
>Since the Norwegians were no doubt brougth up by well educated
>and polite parents, they would know that "When in Rome, do as the Romans". So I am sure that they felt that they were doing their
>best to go native there on the train to Bath. They would never have
>done so on a train to Bergen.
>Henrik ernoe
Do you feel that it is fair to speak of Norwegian matters if you come
from Dvergen, sorry, Bergen?????!!!!
Sincerely,
Jean Gundersen
j0g...@tam2k.tamu.edu
Cynthia Shiang-sheng Smith
And *YOU* can do a better job?!
Espen Nyborg
>[Snip] Are all Norwegian people like
>this, or is this a unique characteristic they develop when traveling
>abroad? Just wondering.
ehm...I don't really know how to approach this. You see, I was on the
bus to Aldgate last week and these two English persons entered. Not
only were they foul looking and smelly, they shouted and sang all the
way to Tower Hill. So I was wondering - are all English people ugly,
smelly and loud or is it just when they're on the bus to Aldgate? ;-)
Assuming you're not being sarcastic, but actually judged an entire
population based on one observation, I will have to say, no -
generally speaking Norwegians aren't loud. Chances are you've been on
the same train or bus as Norwegian tourists before and never even
realised it.
Most of those/us frequenting this forum have numerous times tried to
deal with the problem of stereotyping. And this must be the textbook
example...
I have in earlier postings attempted to outline what I consider to be
the major differences in Norwegian and English culture. What most
people think of is the English politeness often adding Norwegian
(Scandinavian) rudeness. And yes, Scandinavians are generally speaking
more direct - we do not use all the polite phrases, but then again -
is the English "please", "would you be so kind as to..." really
politeness or just plain habit?
<very serious mode>
From my experience, being fairly used to socialising with people with
diverse cultural backgrounds, politeness is of less importance. More
important is IMHO the will to compromise, the will to appreciate
diversity and basically trying to understand other cultures standing
point - in other words tolerance. But then again - tolerance _is_
polite, isn't it? Not sure if tolerance is included in the English
"list of politeness" though...
</very serious mode>
However! - What baffles me is that it seems to be quite common to
find people with a foreign language to be loud - wonder if it can be
the fact that the intonation is different. I've fallen into the trap a
couple of times myself. I think it's often the case when they converse
in a language I do not understand. Theories anyone?
>Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
Not much extraordinairy about your posting I'm afraid - we've seen it
all before.
>Real courage comes only from Holland.
Aaaah - but where does real ignorance come from? - Just wondering ;-)
Espen
_______________________________________________________________________
Espen Nyborg e.ny...@dial.pipex.com or ra...@dial.pipex.com
London http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/e.nyborg/
Elaine S. Krasny
Actually, I thought this was a trick question at first - you know, the
kind in Woody Allen movies. My favorite is from "Take the Money and Run",
in which the prison psychiatrist asks Woody "if sex is dirty?" Woody
ponders awhile and finally say's "if you do it right!"
(adult mode)
Elaine ;)
P.S. Honestly kids know more than most people think. My husband
is always surprised at the age of kids (6-8) who laugh heartily
at sexual innuendos in films. For instance, if your kids laugh at a certain
place in the 2nd Ace Venture Pet Detective movie, "The Call of Nature",
they probably know as much as you!
Richard Wiggett
Gaunt) writes:
[kapow!]
> Before making criticisms about other nationals' behaviour in the
> UK, I would certainly recommend taking a close look at the
behaviour
> of Brits in other countries! In general, not much to be proud of
> there!
Well here's one fuzzy-headed limey whose conduct is always
impecable, regardless of physical location :-)
--
Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk Fone#: +44 973 848356
----------------------- PHAX#: +44 1222 549878 (5-10pm UK time)
All generalizations are false, including this one.
Richard Wiggett
Simen...@math.uio.no (Simen Gaure) writes:
> Are you sure they were sober?
They didn't appear to be smashed :-)
> There's a lot of excellent and cheap beer in England, and even
Agreed, although less of the excellent :-)
> more good pubs. (Though I don't know about Bristol in particular,
> the nearest I know is Eastbourne and a pub called "Diplox" or
something,
> I haven't been there in 17 years.)
>
> Anyway, in the likely event that these gentlemen were
Women, they were, as it happens. But I didn't say that in the
original article, I don't think, so you're excused :-)
[snip about Bath and bath tubs]
> Indeed sir, you're no better yourself, you rush into
> this forum and ask questions concerning general characteristics
> about Norwegians, quite firmly and without reservation.
I've been here for quite some time, actually :-)
> But, I agree, the behaviour you describe seems a bit
> unconventional on a train.
Or in many other places, come to think of it. That's why it was so -
uh - noticeable.
Thomas Lincoln
are very stubborn and stuck-up!
Jorn Aabakken
>On the train between Bristol and Bath yesterday, I saw these two
>Norwegian tourists and I noticed they were very abrupt and loud
>indeed. They barged onto the train and asked quite firmly and
>without reservation, "is this train going to Bath?" and again when
>they didn't get a clear answer. They asked some other questions to
>some other people when the train moved off, and they were still
>being as loud as ever, interrupting, intervening, interfering and
>asking questions with no reservation. Are all Norwegian people like
>this, or is this a unique characteristic they develop when traveling
>abroad? Just wondering.
Norwegians tend to be louder abroad as they often consume large quantities of alcohol
since it is relatively cheap abroad. Personally I think Norwegians are a very quiet
people. You can often tell the foreigners in a Norwegian city precisely because they are
loud--this is especially true for Americans who feel a compulsive need to offer commentary
on everything they may observe, regardless of how idiotic it may sound.
Jorn
agurski on BIX
>On the train between Bristol and Bath yesterday, I saw these two
>Norwegian tourists and I noticed they were very abrupt and loud
>indeed. They barged onto the train and asked quite firmly and
>without reservation, "is this train going to Bath?" and again when
>they didn't get a clear answer. They asked some other questions to
>some other people when the train moved off, and they were still
>being as loud as ever, interrupting, intervening, interfering and
>asking questions with no reservation. Are all Norwegian people like
>this, or is this a unique characteristic they develop when traveling
>abroad? Just wondering.
>--
>Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
>ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk Fone#: +44 973 848356
>----------------------- PHAX#: +44 1222 549878 (5-10pm UK time)
>Real courage comes only from Holland.
-------------------------
Obviously, there are about 4.5 million variations of how loud Norwegians
are. That said, I have heard a number of other remarks about Norwegians
being loud when they are travelling abroad.
-- Aron
Cynthia Shiang-sheng Smith
In article <4l40gj$o...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Thomas Lincoln <ts.li...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> Yes, Norwegians are loud! Especially when they are drunk. And, I might add, they
> are very stubborn and stuck-up!
As a foreigner living in Norway, I find Norwegians generally far from loud.
They are very quiet and reserved, except for when they've been drinking, but
that's pretty much the weekend evenings and not regular 'business hours'.
As for stubborn and stuck-up, I'll have to nod my head a little, but not all
of them are that way.
Henrik Ernoe
>Henrik Ernoe <er...@wotan.ens.fr> wrote:
>
>>Since the Norwegians were no doubt brougth up by well educated
>>and polite parents, they would know that "When in Rome, do as the Romans". So I am sure that they felt that they were doing their
>>best to go native there on the train to Bath. They would never have
>>done so on a train to Bergen.
>
>>Henrik ernoe
>
>Do you feel that it is fair to speak of Norwegian matters if you come
>from Dvergen, sorry, Bergen?????!!!!
YES, certainly!!.
Although I`m not norwegian and my knowlegde of that worthy
city is limited to a short stay in the harbour when the
trawler I worked on had to go in for repairs.
My second sources for bergerniani is the "Varg Veum" novels
by Gunnar Straalesen. That reminds of a couple of observations
that I would like to share with scnreaders.
Having read Straalesen I noticed that he seldom fails to
mention the dialect and place of origin as the first thing
in the description of a person. From that one may conclude
that this is a central point in the Norwegian self-understanding?.
Secondly, in "Fallne Engle" he uses the form "Gunnar`en" or
"Stig`en" or "Petter`en" when the persons refer to common
friends. Is this common usage in Norwegian or is that a
Bergenianian speciality or the late 50s?
>
> Very Sincerely,
>
Henrik ernoe
Espen Nyborg
>Secondly, in "Fallne Engle" he uses the form "Gunnar`en" or
>"Stig`en" or "Petter`en" when the persons refer to common
>friends. Is this common usage in Norwegian or is that a
>Bergenianian speciality or the late 50s?
Generally speaking nicknames are far less common in Norway than in for
instance here in England (Jim=James, Bill=William etc.). What you've
reffered to is possibly the closest. Interesting though, that it seems
to be sort of an inverted abbreviation (Petter'n=Petter etc.).
I remember from when I was a kid (mid/late seventies) that we called
my neighbour Petter Pettern and that my friend Knut Erik was Knuttern,
but I wouldn't say it's that common now (correct me if I'm wrong..),
and this did not apply to the rest of my friends (all two of them :-))
Now on the other hand, I haven't got a clue about know how to explain
some of my friends' nicknames - just have a look:
Matask = Maths Halstensen
Boli = Lars Erik Bolstad
Tafattrud = Anders Tofastrud
Klundrebjørn = Torbjørn Klundseter
Whereas I'm usually referred to as "the body" (NOT!)
Essie = By friends while in primary school
Rotehue = Espen Nyborg (by family except mother)
Knerten = Espen Nyborg (by mother....)
Spinner or Esp = Espen Nyborg (by English friends)
Actually I never realised how common nicknames are in Englishspeaking
countries until I met a couple of Americans while travelling Europe 7
years ago.
Scene: Train between Madrid and Lisbon, just met three American fellow
travellers and done the basic introductionary chit-chat:
Them: So, what's your name?
me: I'm Espen
them: What??
me: Espen - you know Espen as in Aspen Colorado without the A
but with an E. Easy to remember, Espen, Norwegian,
reminds you of Aspen, ski resort... OK?
Or what about Espen as in Dodge Aspen without the Dodge and with
an E. Easy to remember, Espen not dodgy...OK? :-)
them: Yeah, sure, but what are you called?
me: huh???? Called?? I'm called Espen...
(obviously I would have said to the girl - "you can call me
any time", but her boyfriend was huge...) :-)
them: yeah, but what does your friends call you?
me: (sigh...) Espen!
Almost the same happened when I moved to England, but my flatmates
decided to call me Spinner, mainly because they thought my name was
spelt Espin...
BTW: In Norway we have the following saying: Kjaert barn har mange
navn. Does anybody know of an English equivalent?
Espen Nyborg
>j0g...@tam2k.tamu.edu (Jean Gundersen) wrote:
>>Do you feel that it is fair to speak of Norwegian matters if you come
>>from Dvergen, sorry, Bergen?????!!!!
>YES, certainly!!.
ehm... I assume Jean was hinting at the Bergensers themselves saying
I'm not from Norway, I'm from Bergen. ie Bergen and Norway is _not_
the same thing. :-)
[Snip]
>by Gunnar Straalesen. That reminds of a couple of observations
Isn't it Gunnar Staalesen?
>Having read Straalesen I noticed that he seldom fails to
>mention the dialect and place of origin as the first thing
>in the description of a person. From that one may conclude
>that this is a central point in the Norwegian self-understanding?.
Sounds like a spot on observation, Henrik. Unfortunately I have never
read any of his books (blushing ashamedly). I think this is a clever
way for a writer to atribute the characters in his novels without
actually having to describe them in detail. Assuming the person is
_typical_ (according to the stereotype) for his region, you already
know something about his/her background, preferences etc.
Obviously this has some flaws as readers without knowledge about
stereotypical regional characteristics will loose out on some of the
subtelties (sp?).
Richard Wiggett
e.ny...@dial.pipex.com (Espen Nyborg) writes:
> Assuming you're not being sarcastic, but actually judged an entire
> population based on one observation, I will have to say, no -
> generally speaking Norwegians aren't loud. Chances are you've been
on
> the same train or bus as Norwegian tourists before and never even
> realised it.
Such a judgment based on 2 people isn't unreasonable, since that's
the majority of the Norwegian population ;-)
[snipped away into the darkness]
> (Scandinavian) rudeness. And yes, Scandinavians are generally
speaking
> more direct - we do not use all the polite phrases, but then again
I.e. not like the Brits, well, fair enough. I guess the
"beat-about-the-bush" and "stiff upper lip" are both purely British
concepts, not to be found anywhere else in the world.
> is the English "please", "would you be so kind as to..." really
> politeness or just plain habit?
Both.
> <very serious mode>
> From my experience, being fairly used to socialising with people
with
> diverse cultural backgrounds, politeness is of less importance.
More
> important is IMHO the will to compromise, the will to appreciate
> diversity and basically trying to understand other cultures
standing
> point - in other words tolerance. But then again - tolerance _is_
> polite, isn't it? Not sure if tolerance is included in the English
> "list of politeness" though...
Agreed - I've rarely found Brits particularly intolerant, though.
Except maybe in things involving "foreigners" :-(
> </very serious mode>
>
> However! - What baffles me is that it seems to be quite common to
> find people with a foreign language to be loud - wonder if it can
be
> the fact that the intonation is different. I've fallen into the
trap a
> couple of times myself. I think it's often the case when they
converse
> in a language I do not understand. Theories anyone?
I've never fallen into this trap. The only way I might see (hear?)
another language as being loud is if I prick up my ears to listen to
the conversation. Back last August two Swedish women I met on a bus
from London-Cardiff were anything but loud (in either English or
their own tongue).
> Not much extraordinairy about your posting I'm afraid - we've seen
it
> all before.
Oops - sorry :-)
> >Real courage comes only from Holland.
> Aaaah - but where does real ignorance come from? - Just wondering
;-)
The UK? ;-)
--
Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk Fone#: +44 973 848356
----------------------- PHAX#: +44 1222 549878 (5-10pm UK time)
Espen Nyborg
>In article: <4l36v4$1...@tube.news.pipex.net>
>e.ny...@dial.pipex.com (Espen Nyborg) writes:
>Such a judgment based on 2 people isn't unreasonable, since that's
>the majority of the Norwegian population ;-)
ouch!! :-)
>Agreed - I've rarely found Brits particularly intolerant, though.
>Except maybe in things involving "foreigners" :-(
Well, to be quite honest I've never really experienced intolerance as
such since I moved over here. Well, except for being beaten up by 15
lads in Leeds that is (but that was student-bashing, not
foreign-bashing..)
[Snip]
>Back last August two Swedish women I met on a bus
>from London-Cardiff were anything but loud (in either English or
>their own tongue).
hmmmm... Richard, if you're able to tell both Norwegian and Swedish
languages I would be tempted to suggest that maybe you're more
familiar with the Scandi' culture than you make it sound like... You
didn't try a flamebait with your original post, did you??
>> Not much extraordinairy about your posting I'm afraid - we've seen
>>it all before.
>Oops - sorry :-)
<Self-flaming mode>
Actually, I'm the sorry one. After having read my previous posting I
have to say I'm surprised no-one's asked who the hell this pompous
know-it-all "we've seen it all before etc.." thinks he is. And to be
quite honest sometimes I make myself wonder....
</Self-flaming mode>
>All generalizations are false, including this one.
well, that is generally speaking I assume... :-)
Elaine S. Krasny
I agree with you and had hoped that my Woody Allen joke made in
response to such a silly stereotypical generalization about Norwegians
would reveal it for flamebait or worse. So much for USA humor
translating to others. That is one thing I have learned on SCN - that
humor doesn't translate well between cultures. :)
not your average barbaric american ;)
Elaine
Jean Gundersen
That's because American humor is stereotypically not funny.
Try some British humor, now that is excellent.
:-)
Sincerely,
Jean Gundersen
j0g...@tam2k.tamu.edu
Richard Wiggett
e.ny...@dial.pipex.com (Espen Nyborg) writes:
[snip]
> >Agreed - I've rarely found Brits particularly intolerant, though.
> >Except maybe in things involving "foreigners" :-(
> Well, to be quite honest I've never really experienced intolerance
as
> such since I moved over here. Well, except for being beaten up by
15
> lads in Leeds that is (but that was student-bashing, not
> foreign-bashing..)
Well, that's Leeds, that's why. I'm sure you heard about poor old Mr
Popovich.
> [Snip]
> >Back last August two Swedish women I met on a bus
> >from London-Cardiff were anything but loud (in either English or
> >their own tongue).
> hmmmm... Richard, if you're able to tell both Norwegian and
Swedish
> languages I would be tempted to suggest that maybe you're more
> familiar with the Scandi' culture than you make it sound like...
I can tell 'em apart when written in less than a nanosecond, but
that's not the method I used to "discover" that they were Swedish
back then (95-08-22): one of them was flinging a Swedish passport
around, for starters, not to mention certain other characteristics
that made the difference between N and S - uh - differentiable (if
ya know what I mean) ;-) It's embarrassing, but I'll admit it
anyway, I was so ignorant back then (even more so than now :-) )
that I couldn't even recognize Swedish - I actually mistook it for
German (!!!) (before the passport flinging started), so much so that
I was even seriously contemplating butting in and saying to one of
them who was - uh - quite pleasant to the eye ;-) - "Sie kommen aus
Deutschland, oder?" When I first saw her I actually thought "hmmm,
this is strange, she looks very Scandinavian, so why the hell's she
speaking German?" Oh boy how we do learn, eh?
I think I'd certainly recognize Swedish when I heard it NOW - it's
differentiating Norwegian and Danish that's the tough nut to crack.
[text reformatted to one line]
> You didn't try a flamebait with your original post, did you??
Nay nay Jimmy :-)
> <Self-flaming mode>
> Actually, I'm the sorry one. After having read my previous posting
I
> have to say I'm surprised no-one's asked who the hell this pompous
> know-it-all "we've seen it all before etc.." thinks he is. And to
be
> quite honest sometimes I make myself wonder....
> </Self-flaming mode>
Hey, maybe you were telling the truth, that's possible :-)
--
Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk Fone#: +44 973 848356
----------------------- PHAX#: +44 1222 549878 (5-10pm UK time)
Alles is vergeten en vergeven.
Lars Ketil Heill
> Generally speaking nicknames are far less common in Norway than in for
> instance here in England (Jim=James, Bill=William etc.).
> Actually I never realised how common nicknames are in Englishspeaking
...though they might prove helpful:
In Geneva in 1987 a friend and I stayed at the youth hostel with four
irish. The odd one was called William, straightforwardly, but the three
Patricks (!) were conveniently refered to as Pat, Paddy and Patrick.
Nice people, the irish, by the way.
Lars Ketil
he...@mr.sintef.no
Espen Nyborg
>I agree with you and had hoped that my Woody Allen joke made in
>response to such a silly stereotypical generalization about Norwegians
>would reveal it for flamebait or worse. So much for USA humor
>translating to others. That is one thing I have learned on SCN - that
>humor doesn't translate well between cultures. :)
Generally speaking you are right Elaine - humour does often loose out
when translated, both due to the actual linguistic side as well as
people of different cultures laugh at different matters.
However, when it comes to Woody Allen he's got quite a large following
in Norway, and when for humour in general, I'd say the gap isn't that
big from the States to Norway as we've been brought up with English
_and_ American comedy (see my reply to Jean Gundersen in this thread).
As for your WA quote I found that to be extremely funny, but then
again - sex jokes usually go down well with Scandinavians (or is it
just me?) ;-)
Espen Nyborg
>ekr...@omnifest.uwm.edu (Elaine S. Krasny) wrote:
>>I agree with you and had hoped that my Woody Allen joke made in
>>response to such a silly stereotypical generalization about Norwegians
>>would reveal it for flamebait or worse. So much for USA humor
>>translating to others.
>That's because American humor is stereotypically not funny.
I think you just proved Elaines point - that's exactly what Elaine
meant when saying humour didn't always translate well between
cultures. Although (almost) the same language English and Americans
laugh at different things. Generally speaking of course... I think
most Norwegians (including myself) enjoy quite a bit of American
humour though - Laughed my head off watching Ford Fairlane - rock'n
roll detective, enjoy (the rather mainstream) Seinfeld etc. Watched
Toy Story a while back - now that must be good American humour. The
nervous dinosaur Rex - that was funny!
>Try some British humor, now that is excellent.
Yup - must say I really enjoy British humour too (thankfully -
afterall I live here...). As most Norwegians, I've been brought up
with Faulty Towers Monty Python etc. etc. In addition to that there
are quite a few really good shows on the box over here which I enjoy,
Men behaving badly about these two 'lads', Have I got news for you,
humouristic news-quiz show and the list goes on....
So maybe we Norwegians can thank the anglo-american
culturalimperialism for allowing us to enjoy the best of both worlds.
;-) (don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say there's only two worlds
of humour.) As for typical Norwegian humour - well, heck if I know.
Always a bit tricky to pinpoint your own traits - suggestions anyone?
Espen Nyborg
>In article: <4l5id7$g...@tube.news.pipex.net>
>e.ny...@dial.pipex.com (Espen Nyborg) writes:
[snip]
>Well, that's Leeds, that's why. I'm sure you heard about poor old Mr
>Popovich.
Well, to be quite honest - that was in Chapeltown - would rather trot
around in Brixton late Saturday night with a swaztika (sp?) tatooed on
my forehead than stopping there asking for directions.... Must say i
found the northeners to be very friendly though (apart from that one
unfortunate episode).
[Snip]
>around, for starters, not to mention certain other characteristics
>that made the difference between N and S - uh - differentiable (if
>ya know what I mean) ;-)
Haven't got the faintest idea what you're on about ;-) No clothes? No
brain? Blue and yellow acne?
>I actually mistook it for German (!!!) (before the passport flinging
>started), so much so that I was even seriously contemplating butting
>in and saying to one of them who was - uh - quite pleasant to
>the eye ;-)
Hey! Surely the fact that she was good looking would be mutually
exclusive of her being German...... ;-)
>I think I'd certainly recognize Swedish when I heard it NOW - it's
>differentiating Norwegian and Danish that's the tough nut to crack.
That's strange - In Norway we say that Danes sound like they've got a
potato stuffed down their throat.
Elaine S. Krasny
and certainly not, IMHO, an example of Brit humor. As a Yank, I
hate to admit that the best TV sitcom (comedy) ever, in the whole universe
yet, is the Brit show "Red Dwarf", which I know some Norwegians get on
cable, but am not aware if any other nordic countries do.
Elaine
Jean Gundersen
>culturalimperialism for allowing us to enjoy the best of both worlds.
>;-) (don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say there's only two worlds
>of humour.) As for typical Norwegian humour - well, heck if I know.
>Always a bit tricky to pinpoint your own traits - suggestions anyone?
I said stereotypically, didn't I? Ford Fairlane Rocks!
As for Norwegian humor, how about Otto Jespersen and the rest of
revolvermagasinet?
Sincerely,
Jean Gundersen
j0g...@tam2k.tamu.edu
Simen Gaure
In article: <Simen.Gaure-17...@mattemac1.uio.no>
Simen...@math.uio.no (Simen Gaure) writes:
> There's a lot of excellent and cheap beer in England, and even
Agreed, although less of the excellent :-)
You must try to understand them. After all they were Norwegian.
Almost any beer appears to be excellent then, not to mention free.
--
Simen Gaure, Department of Mathematics, University of Oslo
Bob Hammarberg
>Generally speaking nicknames are far less common in Norway than in for
>instance here in England (Jim=James, Bill=William etc.). What you've
>reffered to is possibly the closest. Interesting though, that it seems
>to be sort of an inverted abbreviation (Petter'n=Petter etc.).
>Actually I never realised how common nicknames are in Englishspeaking
>countries until I met a couple of Americans while travelling Europe 7
>years ago.
I did a thing on this in s.c.n a year ago or so. My experience is that
Finlandswedes are notorious nicknamers (to the exasperation - for some
reason - of their Finnish compatriots. Among my spehere of friends,
hardky anyone was called by their right name (except as a joke!) Sweden-
Swedes are pretty good at it too, whereas Danes seem to be at the bottom of
the (Scandinavian) list.
Stein J. Rypern
Henrik Ernoe <er...@wotan.ens.fr> wrote:
>My second sources for bergerniani is the "Varg Veum" novels
>by Gunnar Straalesen.
Staalesen. I like those crime stories too.
>Having read Straalesen I noticed that he seldom fails to
>mention the dialect and place of origin as the first thing
>in the description of a person. From that one may conclude
>that this is a central point in the Norwegian self-understanding?.
Yep. People are often described as a Soerlending (southerner), Roga-
lending (SE, stavanger area), Bergenser, Vossing (Voss, inland from
Bergen), Sunnmøring (natural habitat: state broadcasting company),
Trønder (Trondheim area), Nordlending (Northerner) etc.
Mainly based on dialect. Dialect is part of identity for many. The
nynorsk/bokmaal thing is just written standards.
But the dialects. The lovely burr and ending 'e's of the Stavanger
girls ;-). The refined Bergen pronouciation of "rævhol" (probably
misspelled too :-), the utter confusion of figuring out what people
from the inner parts of the Sognefjord is trying to communicate
about "solo" (which turns out to be "sola" in drag), the broad and
solid (stolid ?) impression from a finance minister with "pæing på
bok" (money in the bank, hedmark dialect), norwegian-american
(norwegian mixed in with all kinds of english words mixed in), the
almost swedish dialect of some parts of SE Ostfold, pakistani
norwegian, sami norwegian etc etc etc.
The dialects is what makes for the sheer fun of speaking and under-
standing norwegian.
>Secondly, in "Fallne Engle" he uses the form "Gunnar`en" or
>"Stig`en" or "Petter`en" when the persons refer to common
>friends. Is this common usage in Norwegian or is that a
>Bergenianian speciality or the late 50s?
Bergenian. Dunno whether it is limited to late 50s though.
Smile,
Stein
--
Stein J. Rypern I "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir,
Ostbyvn 21 I what do we do ?"
N1920 SORUMSAND I "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet
NORWAY I in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
Richard Wiggett
e.ny...@dial.pipex.com (Espen Nyborg) writes:
[bang!]
> >around, for starters, not to mention certain other
characteristics
> >that made the difference between N and S - uh - differentiable
(if
> >ya know what I mean) ;-)
> Haven't got the faintest idea what you're on about ;-) No clothes?
No
> brain? Blue and yellow acne?
Not the first in this case, surprisingly :-) Definitely not the
second, since how could someone with no brain speak English
perfectly(ish)? Not the third. No, no, there seem to be distinctive
appearances that enable one to differentiate. When I first saw 'em I
thought - Sweden - but then my (tired) brain dismissed this
possibility since they were speaking "Plattdeutsch". Stupidity at
its best.
> Hey! Surely the fact that she was good looking would be mutually
> exclusive of her being German...... ;-)
Yes, I was tired since I'd come all the way back from Germany so
I hadn't thought of that :-)
> That's strange - In Norway we say that Danes sound like they've
got a
> potato stuffed down their throat.
When I tuned into Danish radio (accident from messing around with
the tuning knob while searching, ironically, for Radio Sverige) the
only thing that gave me a hunch it was Danish was the fact that they
kept mentioning "Folketinget", and no other reason.
--
Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk Fone#: +44 973 848356
----------------------- PHAX#: +44 1222 549878 (5-10pm UK time)
Fy nhy i ydy dy dy di.
Kurt Swanson
> Yes, Norwegians are loud! Especially when they are drunk. And, I
> might add, they are very stubborn and stuck-up!
But I find it much easier to tolerate Norwegians when they're
drunk... or wait, maybe that's when I'm drunk....
At least when they're drunk they can only dance around in their pied
sweaters with one flag in their hand, as the other must hold the
drink...
--
Kurt Swanson, Department of Computer Science, Lund University.
Kurt.S...@dna.lth.se (http://www.dna.lth.se/home/kurt/)
Jesper Lauridsen
lot of noise. I hit them again and they make more noise. Very
crude. No manners. But there is hope! I hit them much more and
they stop making awful noise. Now silence. Good.
Espen Nyborg
>>friends. Is this common usage in Norwegian or is that a
>>Bergenianian speciality or the late 50s?
> Bergenian. Dunno whether it is limited to late 50s though.
Hei Stein!
Check out my posting Nicknames - I don't really think it's only in
Bergen - The names listed are not only from South-East Norway, but
from Sørumsand! YES Stein! Your very own hometown!! Knuttern lived in
Sennarudfeltet and Pettern in Fynsfeltet!
I admit - I am a closet Sørumsander!
I am glad to see that this quaint little suburb 50 kilometers north of
Oslo has managed without me since I moved from Strandveien 3 in 1976.
I have seen your postings here for a while and just waited for an
opportunity to check up on Sørumsand....so there you go. :-)
>N1920 SORUMSAND
Kind regards, Espen ..walking down memory lane... :-)
Espen Nyborg
[whack! sorry about the snipping, but am a bit rushed today..]
>When I tuned into Danish radio (accident from messing around with
>the tuning knob while searching, ironically, for Radio Sverige) the
Well, Richard - careful messing with the tuning knob - never know what
might happen, especially when dealing with Scandi's ;-)
Espen
Katarina Weinberg
Nyborg) writes:
>
>>Richard Wiggett <ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
[Snip]
>
>>I think I'd certainly recognize Swedish when I heard it NOW - it's
>>differentiating Norwegian and Danish that's the tough nut to crack.
>potato stuffed down their throat.
>
>______________________________________________________________________
>Espen Nyborg e.ny...@dial.pipex.com or
ra...@dial.pipex.com
>London
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/e.nyborg/
>
I thought it was funny. It seems like the southern drawl is universal.
It is true on the east coast in the USA, and it is true in Sweden. In
Sweden, southerners are called half-Danish. Hence, the potato in the
mouth joke , or the classic "spit out the porridge."
I went to school in Stockholm and took some of that loving abuse.
Katarina
Now a southerner in California.
Hans C Hoff
liquid fortification ?
HCH
Richard Wiggett
e.ny...@dial.pipex.com (Espen Nyborg) writes:
> Richard Wiggett <ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [whack! sorry about the snipping, but am a bit rushed today..]
Hey, don't worry about it. You've saved band width :-)
> Well, Richard - careful messing with the tuning knob - never know
what
> might happen, especially when dealing with Scandi's ;-)
Something nice I hope ;-)
--
Richard M. Wiggett - Netsurfer Extraordinaire - Cardiff, UK, EU
ri...@gerrit.demon.co.uk Fone#: +44 973 848356
----------------------- PHAX#: +44 1222 549878 (5-10pm UK time)
Procrastination is the thief of time.
Stein J. Rypern
e.ny...@dial.pipex.com (Espen Nyborg) writes:
>ste...@oslonett.no (Stein J. Rypern) wrote:
>>Henrik Ernoe <er...@wotan.ens.fr> wrote:
>>>"Stig`en" or "Petter`en" when the persons refer to common
>>>friends. Is this common usage in Norwegian or is that a
>>>Bergenianian speciality or the late 50s?
>> Bergenian. Dunno whether it is limited to late 50s though.
>Hei Stein!
>Check out my posting Nicknames - I don't really think it's only in
>Bergen - The names listed are not only from South-East Norway, but
>from Sørumsand! YES Stein! Your very own hometown!! Knuttern lived in
>Sennarudfeltet and Pettern in Fynsfeltet!
>I admit - I am a closet Sørumsander!
Nei, naa kan du dra meg baklengs inn i fuglekassa ...
Guess I should admit that I'm an immigrant - I wasn't born at Sorum-
sand. But I still would say that "Petter'en" is bergenian. "Petter'n"
I'll buy as being from this part of the country. That "'en" thing I
don't think I have heard anywhere but in Bergen. But I could be wrong.
So which Knuttern from Sennarud-feltet are you speaking about ? I am
sitting in my house on the western end of Sennarud-feltet right now :-)
>I am glad to see that this quaint little suburb 50 kilometers north of
>Oslo has managed without me since I moved from Strandveien 3 in 1976.
50 ? We must have moved both closer and a little southwards since you
left - nowadays the tax people let you deduct for driving 44 kilometers,
I think :-)
For those who would like to check out this quaint little suburb: Go
east from Oslo, find the town of Lillestrom. Lillestrom is on lake
Oyern (O is O-slash). Go south along the lake to Fetsund, where river
Glomma enters the lake. Then about 10 kilometers upriver along river
Glomma. There you are.
2500 people, one factory (Kvaerner) that makes turbines, a couple of
smaller factories, one elementary school, one junior high, a high school
(vocational - mechanics & cooking, not always combined :-), about 30
shops, public library, the administrative center of Sorum kommune, a
municipality with roughly 10 000 people.
Sights to see: the museum railroad "Tertitten", the church from the
1100s, the fortifications at Blaker (about 5 or 6 klicks upriver), the
timberrafting whatevertheyarecalled in the river, the power station
(although the bigger one at Raanaasfoss is more interesting, with a
good exhibit on power technology), the restored mill at Slora and a
couple of other things in the neighbourhood.
The trip up along the river to Kongsvinger isn't half bad either, in my
opinion. The summer boat excursion downriver to the art exhibition at
Fetsund is pretty decent too.
Not a bad place to live, we have the river, the forrests and about 40-45
minutes by train to the fleshpots of Oslo. Decent schools, decent public
libraries, a public swimming pool down by the river etc etc etc.
If you should want to check out a typical little eastern norwegian village,
this is a good spot. Hmm - wonder if I should bill the municipality for that
commercial ? :-)
But seriously, I have to agree - it is a small place. Like most small
places - some good and some dull aspects.
>I have seen your postings here for a while and just waited for an
>opportunity to check up on Sørumsand....so there you go. :-)
Indeed :-)
Espen Nyborg
>I thought it was funny. It seems like the southern drawl is universal.
>It is true on the east coast in the USA, and it is true in Sweden. In
>Sweden, southerners are called half-Danish. Hence, the potato in the
>mouth joke , or the classic "spit out the porridge."
ehm... I wouldn't say the Danes have the potato in their mouth - it's
stuffed _way down_ their throat by the sound of it ;-)
But you're right about the drawl, the same applies for Norway, where
people from the south, south-western coast also drawls. As in Sweden,
they're called half-danes too. :-)
Espen
_______________________________________________________________________
Espen Nyborg
>>I admit - I am a closet Sørumsander!
> Nei, naa kan du dra meg baklengs inn i fuglekassa ...
For all non-Norwegians: Quote from Flaaklypa Grand Prix - by Ivo
Caprino - THE Norwegian film to watch!!!! Sort of an old Wallace and
Grummit, with wacky inventions and all...
>Guess I should admit that I'm an immigrant - I wasn't born at Sorum-
>sand. But I still would say that "Petter'en" is bergenian. "Petter'n"
>I'll buy as being from this part of the country. That "'en" thing I
>don't think I have heard anywhere but in Bergen. But I could be wrong.
Aaaahh.. nope, you're right - Petter'en _is_ western Norwegian
dialect, Pettern is East. I just didn't click on to the accent when I
saw it written.
> So which Knuttern from Sennarud-feltet are you speaking about ? I am
>sitting in my house on the western end of Sennarud-feltet right now :-)
Knuttern = Knut Erik Haagenrud (I think..) Damned good footballer,
played right winger on the mikroputt-team... Should be about 28 by
now.
> 50 ? We must have moved both closer and a little southwards since you
>left - nowadays the tax people let you deduct for driving 44 kilometers,
>I think :-)
ehmmm....well, that's tax people for you ;-) or hey, wasn't everything
further away in the good old days?
oh boy, does this bring back memories?! I remember demonstrating
against that very same power station you mentioned. Well, actually not
me but my revolutionary parents that is (with me trotting behind
blushing)... Weren't they all revolutionary in the early seventies
though :-)
Remember the cowboy and indian day at the old steamtrain Tertitten,
with indians raiding the cowboy train.
And that ant-infested outdoor swimming pool by the river...
Jon Ivar Skullerud
> >friends. Is this common usage in Norwegian or is that a
> >Bergenianian speciality or the late 50s?
> Generally speaking nicknames are far less common in Norway than in for
> instance here in England (Jim=James, Bill=William etc.). What you've
> reffered to is possibly the closest. Interesting though, that it seems
> to be sort of an inverted abbreviation (Petter'n=Petter etc.).
This kind of nickname (appending 'en to the name) is, I think
a Bergensian peculiarity. Nowhere else in the country, as
far as I know, has nicknaming been universal or near-universal.
I have no clue whether this is still near-universal in Bergen.
After Bergen, I believe nicknames are most common in the Oslo
region, and the most common kind of nickname consists of the
Christian name with 'ern' appended (Knutern, Larsern, Pettern
etc. Correct me if I'm wrong). But in general, nicknames
are only used when there is some reason for it, and they can
just as well be formed from the person's surname as from the
first name -- or, of course, from some personal characteristic.
I was normally called Skulle myself.
--
______ ______________________________________
/ | |
| jon | jon ivar skullerud |
\______ | |
\ | jon...@th.ph.ed.ac.uk |
ivar | | http://www.ph.ed.ac.uk/~jonivar/ |
_______/ |______________________________________|
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Anders Engwall
>It seems like the southern drawl is universal.
>It is true on the east coast in the USA, and it is true in Sweden.
But we do one better! Anyone who has ever been to Luleå ("Luuule") or
thereabout knows that we have a *northern* drawl too.
--
Anders Engwall
"Alle man står still som en stum fisk, tills vi hittar den knyckta stångkorven!"