The Ior Bock saga
John Beuker
interesting: the Rot language, Uudenmaa center of the world,
lemminkainen, hidden treasures etc. I found his homepage,
http://www.synchronicity.fi/bocksaga/menu.html but the last update is
a year ago and the articles are in Finnish which I don't speak.
I know it's not all very realistic what he said, but in what way has
it had influence on history, language science etc? Has he achieved
anything for that matter? What has happened the last year? Has the
digging been canceled? I hope anyone can give me some information.
John
rt
John Beuker wrote in message
<36c4600...@news.xs4all.nl>...
>I know it's not all very realistic what he said, but in
what way has
>it had influence on history, language science etc? Has he
achieved
>anything for that matter? What has happened the last year?
Has the
>digging been canceled? I hope anyone can give me some
information.
>
"No one is a prophet in his own willage."
The Bock Saga has in no way influenced serious academic
studies in Finland yet - and is extremely unlikely to do so,
if you discount psychopatology and the study of mythomania.
Or perhaps conmanship. Ior Bock lives and does as he wants,
that's his achievment, if you don't count the cave excavated
in some ten meters of solid rock. This excavation has not
become one of the sights around here - I live less than 15
kilometres from it, I haven't seen it and don't intend to
visit it. The main digging activity was cancelled 5-6 years
ago when the constructing company Lemminkäinen Oy chickened
out - after that Ior according to a news story some years
ago has continued on his own.
It's a funny thing - when Ior in the seventies started this
thing that became the Bock saga it centered around a place
called Snappertuna situated c. 100 km:s west of Helsingfors,
the Lemminkäinen cave is situated c. 30 km:s east of
Helsingfors. It seems he took the Saga and it's localities
with him when he moved from place to place...
It has been pretty quiet about him the last 2-3 years. I
suppose he goes to India in the winter as has been his
custom for many years and in the summer works as a freelance
guide at Sveaborg, the 18th century island fortress outside
Helsingfors. He's a very good and inspiring guide - he tells
a tall tale there too...
What amazes us Swede-Finns from Helsingfors that have known
and known about him for a long time is the fact that he has
been taken so seriously abroad. But he has always been a
good actor and a great storyteller...
Perhaps you could tell me what you find so intriguing about
him?
rt
John Beuker
>What amazes us Swede-Finns from Helsingfors that have known
>and known about him for a long time is the fact that he has
>been taken so seriously abroad. But he has always been a
>good actor and a great storyteller...
>
>Perhaps you could tell me what you find so intriguing about
>him?
Thanks for the update!
I became intrigued by this story because I'm interested in Finland,
language development etc. I didn't get it from him, but from his Dutch
friend Michel Merle, who told the famous Dutch story teller Willem de
Ridder about it in de Ridder's radio show. I also have a Willem de
Ridder magazine dated September 1 50,010,008 (!), with this story.
That a company actually went digging in the granite gave me the
impression it wasn't all just a story.
On Ior's homepage I read that in Egmond, some 20 kilometers from my
home, there is an Ior Bock fountain, that's funny. I think he has some
friends around here.
Anyway, it's such a large story, I tend to think it's not all just a
Saga. But I guess some of it originates from other myths?
John
rt
John Beuker wrote in message
>
>Anyway, it's such a large story, I tend to think it's not
all just a
>Saga. But I guess some of it originates from other myths?
>
He has borrowed from the Edda, the Kalevala and the Rig-Veda
and put together a beautiful piece of bullshit. His
storytelling ability and his personal charisma has done the
rest.
The construction company Lemminkäinen Oy ( named after one
of the heros of Kalevala, which by the way according to
modern Finnish scientist actually was created by Lönnroth in
much the same way as MacPherson wrote Ossian's songs) funded
the excavation for two reasons: initially the saw it as a PR
trick, and one of the Senior Managers was a personal friend
of Ior. When Ior didn't produce as promised the company
withdraw and this manager personally funded some 50 000 FIM.
Then he quit too.
I repeat: no scientist in Finland takes Bock's stories
seriously. Neither should you if you are a discerning
person. But the stories are fun and amusing.
rt
emat...@tomatoweb.com
Not to mention 'destructive archaeology' at it's finest. Well, that's one
way to validate a site - blow up the evidence with dyn-o-mite. I'm going to
go over to Lemminkäinen's Bar and Grill and think about this over a horn of
meade.
Erik Mattila
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
lus...@rocketmail.com
emat...@tomatoweb.com wrote:
> In article <7a44fb$s...@idefix.eunet.fi>,
> "rt" <r...@rtammREMOVETHIS.pp.fi> wrote:
> > The construction company Lemminkäinen Oy ( named after one
> > of the heros of Kalevala, which by the way according to
> > modern Finnish scientist actually was created by Lönnrot in
> > much the same way as MacPherson wrote Ossian's songs) funded
> > the excavation for two reasons: initially the saw it as a PR
> > trick, and one of the Senior Managers was a personal friend
> > of Ior. When Ior didn't produce as promised the company
> > withdraw and this manager personally funded some 50 000 FIM.
> > Then he quit too.
Actually the views on Elias Lönnrot haven´t changed recently, it has always
been accepted that he composed the Kalevala as well as compiled it - and he
did it quite openly. Only about a third of the lines are "intact", but no one
has suggested this would make the Kalevala less "genuine". "Ossian´s songs"
on the other hand were made up from the beginning, and MacPherson later wrote
also the "epic folk poetry" on which he claimed to have based his version.
> Not to mention 'destructive archaeology' at it's finest. Well, that's one
> way to validate a site - blow up the evidence with dyn-o-mite. I'm
going to
> go over to Lemminkäinen's Bar and Grill and think about this over a horn of
> meade.
It wasn´t as bad as that. They only used heavy machinery to try and dig up the
entrance to the "ancient temple of Lemminkäinen" - the driver wasn´t very
enthusiastic at being employed in this manner by a bunch of dopeheads:-)
Lustig
Gunnar
lus...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> Kaleval + Lonnrot
Some 10-15 years ago Hufvudstadsbladet (?) had an article on
some swedish monk who visited Finland in 1600 or whatever.
He had written down some of the "folklore", one example
was the Sampo story, but it was in a more "original"
concept of a fertility machine, a hermaphrodite thing.
From what I dimly remember the idea was that this was similar
to for example mesopotamian,etc, pre-judeo-christian ideas,
that is, ferility compared to the anti-sexual, monotheistic
ideas of the latter.
Additionally something as sexual as this was clearly sinful and
barbaric during Lonnrots time, so instead of the general Cow-Bull thing
it turned into something more like a mill, which represented
wealth and productivity at that time of early or pre-industrialization??
Anyone who knows if there is any documents on the net on this??
Or if there has been any debate on this??
Gunnar
PS I got an additional view on this from some calculations on
how much fields, labour is needed to keep a cow,oxen and a
kind of totally improductive, but necessary, bull alive in
Africa, for agricultural use, through draughts,etc.
Additionally I would guess a hermaphrodite producer of
fertility and wealth wouldn't necessarily be a very
hunter-gatherer thing to bother with in terms of
food production, neither to have a lot of children.
rt
Gunnar wrote in message <36C8A097...@surfnet.fi>...
<snip>
>
>Anyone who knows if there is any documents on the net on
this??
>Or if there has been any debate on this??
>
I don't know if there's something on the net, but if I
remember correctly Micael Agricola refers to pagan fertility
rites that were still practised in his time. So a 16th
century monk might well have heard about something of the
sort.
This is the first I have heard connecting Sampo to fertility
rites, but why not! Silent movie makers used train wheels to
symbolize fucking - that's close to a mill!
It could explain the mysterious nature of Sampo.
rt
Gunnar
rt wrote:
>
> This is the first I have heard connecting Sampo to fertility
> rites, but why not! Silent movie makers used train wheels to
> symbolize fucking - that's close to a mill!
>
> It could explain the mysterious nature of Sampo.
>
Don't make the (judeo-christian) mistake of connecting
sexuality-fertility
to "sin".
Fertility for a communal agricultural society is plain productivity,
just
as a mill is.
Communal, when the community has common ownership of fields,etc, so
that the parenthood of children isn't that important, that is,
inheritance is within the community, not only from parents.
Additionally high infant deathrates, as well as death rates for
women giving birth, one reson why women had limited "human rights",
some 10-20% died giving birth.
Trains of course have/had this long clindrical shape, go through
tunnels and blow a lot of white fertility stuff now and then.
Additionally one kind of moves up and down in a funny, amusing
way when riding them. (very funny with a room full of men and
women sitting and moving up and down together)
Anyone who has seen a real steam engine pays a lot of attention to
the steam cylinder for the driving wheels, those who have just seen
diesel or electrical engines totally miss that accelerating in-out
association.
But modern train technology has gotten rid of most of that stuff,
a totally different experience with longer, welded rails, electric
trains have a more headache kind of association.
Gunnar
rt
Gunnar wrote in message <36C9AA65...@surfnet.fi>...
>
>Don't make the (judeo-christian) mistake of connecting
>sexuality-fertility
>to "sin".
>
>Fertility for a communal agricultural society is plain
productivity,
>just
>as a mill is.
Why do first you insult me (I'm neither a Jew or a
Christian) and then tell me things I already know?
rt
Gunnar
rt wrote:
>
> Why do first you insult me (I'm neither a Jew or a
> Christian) and then tell me things I already know?
>
Where was the insult??
Judeo-christian(-islam) relation to sexuality??
Isn't that what most of the european-USA culture
is based on?? Few would disagree with that, as well
that it is deeply embedded in the way one thinks.
>>>This is the first I have heard connecting Sampo to fertility
>>>rites, but why not! Silent movie makers used train wheels to
>>>symbolize fucking - that's close to a mill!
No accelarating back and forth movements in a traditional
mill, just (wooden) wheels rotating slowly, squeeking, kind
of painfully, that is, I see no parallells, associations
between old train wheels and old mills. (in regards to
sexuality)
Gunnar
emat...@tomatoweb.com
BTW, one of the feminist critiques of Marx is that he failed to cite women and
childbirth as a 'productive force' in society.
Other than that, I can understand how the sampo could symbolize 'fecundity'
or whatever you want to call fertility and production. There's a school of
economics that claims that agriculture is the only productive force, even in
our modern, industrial society -- since it's the only economic activity that
actually produces anything that wasn't there to begin with.
Erik Mattila
Fredrik :Ostman
| How about "Das Kapital" for information on the productive forces in society?
Absolutely worthless.
--
______ _~
(_/_ _ _ _/) _ . /) / ) , _/) _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_ (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Robert T
Gunnar wrote in message <36C9D410...@surfnet.fi>...
>
>Where was the insult??
>
It's not a big deal, but you wrote: "Don't make the (judeo-christian)
mistake of connecting sexuality-fertility to "sin"." and the went on
lecturing me about facts that I already know. Perhaps I was overreacting,
but at the moment I felt it was an insult to my intelligence - at least it
was condescending of you, but OK, let's forget it.
The interesting thing here is linking Sampo to fertility rites - can you
point to some references?
rt
emat...@tomatoweb.com
Fredrik :Ostman
| even as a joke???
+-
With 10^8 people killed I find the joke tasteless.
lus...@rocketmail.com
emat...@tomatoweb.com wrote:
> How about "Das Kapital" for information on the productive forces in society?
> BTW, one of the feminist critiques of Marx is that he failed to cite women and
> childbirth as a 'productive force' in society.
>
> Other than that, I can understand how the sampo could symbolize 'fecundity'
> or whatever you want to call fertility and production. There's a
school of
> economics that claims that agriculture is the only productive force, even in
> our modern, industrial society -- since it's the only economic activity that
> actually produces anything that wasn't there to begin with.
Which is something farmers never tire of remind us city-dwellers when we
complain about the cost of subsidies:-)
Incidentally, in the 1950愀 there was a Soviet-Finnish "co-production" movie
of the Sampo epic. The Marxist-Leninist screenplay made the Sampo into a sort
of separator (a genial piece of machinery) that gave an unlimited supply of
grain - and it was somehow a result of collective farming.
Lustig
rt
lus...@rocketmail.com wrote in message
<7aegsg$udg$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
<snip>
>Incidentally, in the 1950愀 there was a Soviet-Finnish
"co-production" movie
>of the Sampo epic. The Marxist-Leninist screenplay made the
Sampo into a sort
>of separator (a genial piece of machinery) that gave an
unlimited supply of
>grain - and it was somehow a result of collective farming.
I shudder....
rt
Jari Lehtinen
>Incidentally, in the 1950愀 there was a Soviet-Finnish "co-production" movie
>of the Sampo epic. The Marxist-Leninist screenplay made the Sampo into a sort
>of separator (a genial piece of machinery) that gave an unlimited supply of
>grain - and it was somehow a result of collective farming.
And the infamously reddish and distorted Sovfilm colour material made even
the Swan Of Tuonela look pink!
But... there is a point. Sampo gave three kind of wealth: salt, flour and money.
Without going to very deep in various interpretations of the theme,
I appreciate very much the Estonian president's Lennart Meri's idea that
Sampo was a meteor, fallen to the Saaremaa 1600 years ago. That is
at least a concretic and logical explanation. By mining the iron-rich meteor
the society became prosperous, thus giving money, salt and flour as Sampo did.
Tekno-Kekko
Lahti
------------------------------------------------------
"Yaru dake son suru yona, mainichi wa
sha ni kamaeteta hou koso, raku ni naru"
"More effort, more damage, this is my daily life,
a cynical attitude might comfort me a little bit"
TM Revolution: "Heart Of Sword / Before Dawn" (1996)
Rurouni Kenshin soundtrack
------------------------------------------------------
emat...@tomatoweb.com
I apologise -- I just can't follow your logic here. You're making a very
strange inference, in my opinion, if not a completely fantastic one.
Erik Mattila
lus...@rocketmail.com
j...@sci.fi (Jari Lehtinen) wrote:
> And the infamously reddish and distorted Sovfilm colour material made even
> the Swan Of Tuonela look pink!
I扉e only seen photographs, but I know that the film was shown last year in
the U.S. (in a "fantasy film" series) and no doubt added to the amount of
strange impressions about Finns...
> But... there is a point. Sampo gave three kind of wealth: salt, flour and
money.
> Without going to very deep in various interpretations of the theme,
> I appreciate very much the Estonian president's Lennart Meri's idea that
> Sampo was a meteor, fallen to the Saaremaa 1600 years ago. That is
> at least a concretic and logical explanation. By mining the iron-rich meteor
> the society became prosperous, thus giving money, salt and flour as Sampo
did.
I go for Paavo Haavikko愀 theory of Sampo as the minting mold of coins that
Finns stole from Constantinople when they participated on Viking raids to the
east.
Lennart Meri also had a beautiful explanation for the importance of the fir
tree: it was under its branches that one sought shelter, and when one looked
up to a bright starry sky, it seemed like the stars rotated around the tree.
> "Yaru dake son suru yona, mainichi wa
> sha ni kamaeteta hou koso, raku ni naru"
A short inward breath through the teeth:-)
Lustig
Gunnar
emat...@tomatoweb.com wrote:
>
> How about "Das Kapital" for information on the productive forces in society?
> BTW, one of the feminist critiques of Marx is that he failed to cite women and
> childbirth as a 'productive force' in society.
>
Yes, they are very correct in that, Freud at least had regular
sex with his wife's unmarried sister, not legally allowed to live on her
own, nor own property, during this great victorian time.
> Other than that, I can understand how the sampo could symbolize 'fecundity'
> or whatever you want to call fertility and production. There's a school of
> economics that claims that agriculture is the only productive force, even in
> our modern, industrial society -- since it's the only economic activity that
> actually produces anything that wasn't there to begin with.
>
_Bull_shit_!! They have never, just to pick one example, layed out a net
and
picked the fish to release and the ones to eat...
Must be these american guys who have a problem justifying how anglo-USA
has
the holy property rights to USA, because they "improved God's land"..
(luckily the native indians considered all land as "God's land")
Gunnar
On the other hand, bull_shit is one of the most important productive
products in history, both in term of agriculture, gun powder and
dynamite..
Gunnar
Fredrik :Ostman wrote:
>
> +-----< emat...@tomatoweb.com >
> | How about "Das Kapital" for information on the productive forces in society?
> +-
>
> Absolutely worthless.
>
I assume you are not a into economy by profession..
Gunnar
If you are, you are plainly brainwashed, or making a good joke
Gunnar
Fredrik :Ostman wrote:
>
> +-----< emat...@tomatoweb.com >
> | even as a joke???
> +-
>
> With 10^8 people killed I find the joke tasteless.
>
Aaahh, you are a moralist??
Gunnar
Gunnar
lus...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>
> Incidentally, in the 1950愀 there was a Soviet-Finnish "co-production" movie
> of the Sampo epic. The Marxist-Leninist screenplay made the Sampo into a sort
> of separator (a genial piece of machinery) that gave an unlimited supply of
> grain - and it was somehow a result of collective farming.
>
Hmm, the genius of the swedish invention of the "separator" was to
separate
milk from the more fatty parts of milk, the agrarian base for the
independency of the wife of the farmer, as well as the small farmer,
making butter and cheese, which can be stored,transported, not the case
for regular milk, dairy products.
However, the early 1800 big thing are the regular mills by a stream,
capable of graining more than a lot of cheap women-labor could,
which then James Watt found another solution for, as well as producing
Whiskey with the extra energy.
A later domestic production used the more contemporary idea of
printing money, coins, (loiri as the magical mining smith) which
is more like the devaluation policies of 1980s to transfer wealth
from some groups to others (as well as how Alan Green$pan battle$
the euro at this very time).
Now, of course, according to Sirkka Hamalainen, it is more a question
of understanding the future of the stock market..
Gunnar
Gunnar
Robert T wrote:
>
> Gunnar wrote in message <36C9D410...@surfnet.fi>...
> >
> >Where was the insult??
> >
> It's not a big deal, but you wrote: "Don't make the (judeo-christian)
> mistake of connecting sexuality-fertility to "sin"." and the went on
> lecturing me about facts that I already know. Perhaps I was overreacting,
> but at the moment I felt it was an insult to my intelligence - at least it
> was condescending of you, but OK, let's forget it.
>
Yeah, I knew that, but I had to go the whole path to the end..
Something one smart finn pointed out to me at the general downfall of
Finland
in the late 1980s. ( he tried to get finnish industry, institutions more
productive, the issue of not getting stuck in a macho "beeing right or
wrong")
> The interesting thing here is linking Sampo to fertility rites - can you
> point to some references?
Husis, this one article about the same "wealth" perpetum mobile beeing a
hermophrodite cow-bull in 1600, swedish monk, Sampo claimed as closely
related to "eufrat and tigris" ideas of x000 BC, were, of course, the
first stock
exchange was also started (according to documented history, all the
first cuniform tablets has to do with investements, book keeping,
contracts,
buying,selling interest,risk in trading caravans,etc)
So, the big Sampo question is now what will the euro-dollar rate be in
half a year??
Gunnar
H.W.M.
> Now, of course, according to Sirkka Hamalainen, it is more a question
> of understanding the future of the stock market..
I thought Sirkka Hämäläinen was the expert on pension plans?
--
Cheers,| The darkness must go down the river of night's dreaming.|
HWM | Flow morphia slow, let the sun and light come streaming.|
==> hen...@GNWmail.com & http://www.softavenue.fi/u/henry.w
emat...@tomatoweb.com
Gunnar <gun...@surfnet.fi> wrote:
>
>
> emat...@tomatoweb.com wrote:
> >
> > How about "Das Kapital" for information on the productive forces in society?
> > childbirth as a 'productive force' in society.
> >
>
> Yes, they are very correct in that, Freud at least had regular
> sex with his wife's unmarried sister, not legally allowed to live on her
> own, nor own property, during this great victorian time.
>
> > Other than that, I can understand how the sampo could symbolize 'fecundity'
> > or whatever you want to call fertility and production. There's a school of
> > economics that claims that agriculture is the only productive force, even in
> > our modern, industrial society -- since it's the only economic activity that
> > actually produces anything that wasn't there to begin with.
> >
>
> _Bull_shit_!! They have never, just to pick one example, layed out a net
> and
> picked the fish to release and the ones to eat...
You know, you're right. I think I've been living in this desert in Southern
California too long now (about a year) and I completely forgot about fish.
Here we have lizards.
>
> Must be these american guys who have a problem justifying how anglo-USA
> has
> the holy property rights to USA, because they "improved God's land"..
> (luckily the native indians considered all land as "God's land")
You're right about that too. I think it was a group of mid-westerners (corn
belt folks) who developed this sort of theory. But you're not so right about
Indian land tenure -- but most people aren't right about it either, even the
gurus who wrote Title 25, United States Code "Indians". As it turns out,
Native Americans practiced nearly every form of land ownership you can
imagine. The only thing that distinguishes their practices from Eurpoe is
Roman Feudalism, or more precisely, that part that has to do with the
'individual's right to the soil.' I'll bet if you study pre-roman Finnish
Land Tenure, you will find it to be pretty much the same as US Indian tenure.
So too the old institutions like the Mir, Mark, or Manor. All centered
around a concept of each individual's inalienable right to the soil (just
like the issues of the Peasants Wars around the time of Martin Luther).
>
> Gunnar
>
> On the other hand, bull_shit is one of the most important productive
> products in history, both in term of agriculture, gun powder and
> dynamite..
You're right about that, exactly. Just ask me. While reading this thread I
remembered something very old that was in the news several years ago. This
fellow had invented a machine that he called "The Mechanical Cow." It was
actually a protein seperation device. He claimed, for example, that the
country of Ghana could feed its population from the waste of its peanut crop.
The process produced a tasteless, ordorless protien flour that could be
flavored, baked, processed just like real flour. He actually set up shop in
Hermosa Beach, near Los Angeles, in the early sixties. He purchased all the
'scrap fish' from the waterfront and began producing his product, a
high-protein flour that sold for about a tenth of the price and any other
form of protein.
Soon the health department moved in on him and put him out of business. They
said he would have to clean the fish (a lot of small anchoives and smelt
etc.) in order to have a 'legal' product. Who was kidding who? The big food
corps set their henchmen in to squash this compitition. The inventor said
that if he had to clean the fish (remove the head and guts) the product would
be too expensive to be commercially viable. So he folded, and I've never
heard anything about this modern 'sampo' ever since.
Erik Mattila
lus...@rocketmail.com
Gunnar <gun...@surfnet.fi> wrote:
> > Incidentally, in the 1950愀 there was a Soviet-Finnish "co-production" movie
> > of the Sampo epic. The Marxist-Leninist screenplay made the Sampo into a
sort
> > of separator (a genial piece of machinery) that gave an unlimited supply of
> > grain - and it was somehow a result of collective farming.
> >
>
> Hmm, the genius of the swedish invention of the "separator" was to
> separate
> milk from the more fatty parts of milk, the agrarian base for the
> independency of the wife of the farmer, as well as the small farmer,
> making butter and cheese, which can be stored,transported, not the case
> for regular milk, dairy products.
Ahem, I do know what a separator is, if fact I used to turn the handle of one
myself when I was a kid - and marvel at the different substances flowing or
churning out:-) The Soviet Sampo somehow resembles it very much, though it
was rather glittery. For all interested (in fantasy, mythology or Sovcolor!)
the film will be shown on Finnish TV shortly.
> However, the early 1800 big thing are the regular mills by a stream,
> capable of graining more than a lot of cheap women-labor could,
> which then James Watt found another solution for, as well as producing
> Whiskey with the extra energy.
The idea of the Sampo as a sort of mill is of course present in many passages
of the Kalevala; it is said to bear a direct relation to a wooden part at the
base of the mill on and around which the two millstones rotate. By extension
it was imagined to be a sort of axle around which the world, stars and the
solar year rotate.
> A later domestic production used the more contemporary idea of
> printing money, coins, (loiri as the magical mining smith) which
> is more like the devaluation policies of 1980s to transfer wealth
> from some groups to others (as well as how Alan Green$pan battle$
> the euro at this very time).
That would be the "Rauta-aika" by Kalle Holmberg and Paavo Haavikko.
Lustig
Fredrik :Ostman
| Aaahh, you are a moralist?
+-
No. You might have noticed that my objection as aesthetical.
Fredrik :Ostman
| I assume you are not a into economy by profession..
Marx' Capital has nothing new little true to say about the productive
forces in society.
Mike Jittlov
Gunnar <gun...@surfnet.fi> wrote:
> Incidentally, in the 1950愀 there was a Soviet-Finnish
> "co-production" movie of the Sampo epic. The Marxist
It was on American TV in the 1970's, and retitled "The Day
the Earth Froze". MST3K (Mystery Science Theater 3000)
satirized it mercilessly, with the host and two robots
commenting while watching this movie version of the Kalevala.
Actually, it has some remarkable special effects work, for
its time and available technology. And there's a charming
old dance tune, with townsfolk singing, that's managed to
escape Hollywood's redubbing. If you've heard this music...
Is it Finnish? Is it well-known? What IS it?!? (it's
more difficult to get that melody out my head than Di$ney's
"It's a Small World" ;-)
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Fredrik...@siemens.at (Fredrik :Ostman) wrote:
> +-----< Gunnar >
> | Aaahh, you are a moralist?
> +-
>
> No. You might have noticed that my objection as aesthetical.
>
No, what your objection was to a joke that you described as 'tasteless' since
it involved Marx, who apparently you hold responsible for much human
suffering. I'm still puzzled by how you feel this way. Now you are saying it
is aesthetical, which I can understand is a good way to critique humor. By
why is a joke about Hitler OK, or Stalin Ok, and it is not Ok with Marx. I'm
just trying to sort that out so I can understand your position. BTW, I'm not
comfortable with cracking jokes that others find offensive, so I would like
to know more about why you feel this way. I'm not trying to be offensive,
believe me. I just want to understand your point of view.
Erik Mattila
Fredrik :Ostman
| No, what your objection was to a joke that you described as 'tasteless'
But yes, "taste" *is* often connected to "aesthetics", believe it or
not.
+-
| since
| it involved Marx, who apparently you hold responsible for much human
| suffering.
+-
Not at all. We were not discussing Marx, but the writings of Marx.
Responsibility in its everyday sense can of course only be taken by
human beings, which in this case were not Marx, but all the leaders of
the world who have put the teachings, and especially the economical
teachings, of Marx into practice.
+-
| why is a joke about Hitler OK, or Stalin Ok, and it is not Ok with Marx.
+-
Did I say so? I do find jokes about using Mein Kampf as (primary) source
of say genetical, societal or hygenical knowledge utterly tasteless.
lus...@rocketmail.com
jit...@1stnetusa.com (Mike Jittlov) wrote:
> In article <7ar0r5$djt$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, lus...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> > Incidentally, in the 1950愀 there was a Soviet-Finnish
> > "co-production" movie of the Sampo epic. The Marxist
>
> It was on American TV in the 1970's, and retitled "The Day
> the Earth Froze". MST3K (Mystery Science Theater 3000)
> satirized it mercilessly, with the host and two robots
> commenting while watching this movie version of the Kalevala.
>
> Actually, it has some remarkable special effects work, for
> its time and available technology. And there's a charming
> old dance tune, with townsfolk singing, that's managed to
> escape Hollywood's redubbing. If you've heard this music...
> Is it Finnish? Is it well-known? What IS it?!? (it's
> more difficult to get that melody out my head than Di$ney's
> "It's a Small World" ;-)
I haven愒 seen the film - but I will tape it soon - but I read that "The Day
the Earth Froze" was one of the famous Roger Corman remakes.
The Soviet film was redubbed and re-edited into two parts, and it愀 possible
even the tune was put in the film by him...
Lustig
peder....@gmail.com
I read about the life of Ior Bock and was lead to read your meiling
When Ior was incestual birth it caused harm but they thought Lemminkäinen
a story which might be true
Friendly regards from a Norvegian
P.A.Eide
keetc...@gmail.com
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5. Ättestuppa
6. Qypelevouri
7. Kajaanin Linna
8. Raaseporin linna
9. Ior Bock Grave
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