Flame_FAQ?
Jorma Kypp|
After a small pause I revisited in s.c.n and found out the
articles (Johan O.) concerning the s.c.n. FAQ.
That gave me an inspiration to check up them again and
yes, mostly this FAQ still appears to be a good information
packet.
But, BUT...
What made me a bit confused was the part, that focused on flames.
I found this one:
"One of the purposes of this FAQ is in fact to decrease the amount of
flaming and the frequency of the same old threads; if you're a newcomer,
please read through at least this part of the FAQ (the rest is up to
your tastes), and you may be able to avoid some of the most common
mistakes made by new SCNers (e.g. posting a flamy article condemning
Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with Jarmo Ryyti. :)"
So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
warns about flames includes a flame itself! The smiley in the end doesn't
repair the mistake.
I would be interested to know, who wrote this part of text and like
to remind, that those two, men Johan Olofsson and Antti ALahelma, who
mostly seem to deal with s.c.n FAQ, are (so far I've recognized) the
main opponents of Jarmo Ryyti. Generally, both Ryyti and Olofsson
write enormous articles in s.c.n (most favourite topic is the
Finnish-Swedish language politics) and the only difference I've
found out is the opposite opinion. I also haven't found any reason
why the sentence in FAQ couldn't be written: "..or starting an argument
with Johan Olofsson...:)"
In the beginnig of the FAQ there was a list of assistants, that I found
interesting. I would like to know about the criteria how this list
was made?
Conclusion: if we want to keep FAQ as a FAQ, there shouldn't be included
any personal flames. Perhaps there should be added even a chapter
under the title: "What is a FAQ-flame?". I offer this article:)
Jorma Kyppo
P.S. Just to avoid possible wrong conclusions I like to add, that
even though Mr. J.R. and me have quite similar name and we
both work in JyU, he has been for me just same kind of netpal
like many of the readers from Sweden to States. We use to
meet only here, mean in s.c.n.
Kari Yli-Kuha
jo...@jytko.jyu.fi (Jorma Kypp|) writes:
[...]
: But, BUT...
:
: What made me a bit confused was the part, that focused on flames.
: I found this one:
: "One of the purposes of this FAQ is in fact to decrease the amount of
: flaming and the frequency of the same old threads; if you're a newcomer,
: please read through at least this part of the FAQ (the rest is up to
: your tastes), and you may be able to avoid some of the most common
: mistakes made by new SCNers (e.g. posting a flamy article condemning
: Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with Jarmo Ryyti. :)"
:
: So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
: warns about flames includes a flame itself! The smiley in the end doesn't
: repair the mistake.
: I would be interested to know, who wrote this part of text and like
Regardless of who wrote that piece of the FAQ I and - I believe - many
others who've followed s.c.n for quite some time agree that there's no
point starting an argument with a person who doesn't discuss but,
rather, used some kind of "hit and run" tactics in his "discussions".
By this I mean that most of the time JR makes a claim, justified or
not, and when somebody who replies wanting to discuss the subject
further, JR simply ignores the counter arguments - i.e. either replies
with silence or all of a sudden changes the subject to his liking.
I don't think this argumentation style is very constructive and newcomers
in s.c.n may find this kind of behaviour arrogant and even repulsive -
therefore a word of warning is in place so they'd know what to expect.
I for one try at any cost to avoid arguing with an arrogant and
self-centred person, both in private life and in s.c.n - it's not
fruitful.
: to remind, that those two, men Johan Olofsson and Antti ALahelma, who
: mostly seem to deal with s.c.n FAQ, are (so far I've recognized) the
: main opponents of Jarmo Ryyti. Generally, both Ryyti and Olofsson
: write enormous articles in s.c.n (most favourite topic is the
: Finnish-Swedish language politics) and the only difference I've
: found out is the opposite opinion. I also haven't found any reason
: why the sentence in FAQ couldn't be written: "..or starting an argument
: with Johan Olofsson...:)"
The subtle difference is that JO discusses, JR doesn't...
: In the beginnig of the FAQ there was a list of assistants, that I found
: interesting. I would like to know about the criteria how this list
: was made?
I think it simply consists of persons who have somehow contributed
to the FAQ, or persons who have been active readers/contributors in
s.c.n for several years.
: Conclusion: if we want to keep FAQ as a FAQ, there shouldn't be included
: any personal flames. Perhaps there should be added even a chapter
: under the title: "What is a FAQ-flame?". I offer this article:)
I don't think this can be seen as a flame, but rather as a warning.
: Jorma Kyppo
:
: P.S. Just to avoid possible wrong conclusions I like to add, that
: even though Mr. J.R. and me have quite similar name and we
: both work in JyU, he has been for me just same kind of netpal
: like many of the readers from Sweden to States. We use to
: meet only here, mean in s.c.n.
Why "mean"?
--
/Kari (male, btw.)
--
It is absurd to divide people into good and bad.
People are either charming or tedious. -Oscar Wilde.
Elaine S. Krasny
I agree with Jorma completely - i.e. there should be NO mention of names
in a Flame FAQ. It is implicit harassment and censorship of the person
named - both extremely offensive to me!
The article in the May issue of Rolling Stome - a USA popculture zine
that has more influence than it deserves - about Sweden includes a
quote from one of the country's Cabinet ministers, Marita Ulvskog.
Quote:
We don't want a society with large differences--in income, in social
welfare, in regions, in men and women."
End quote
All goes well up to "regions". This article is totally disrespectful
of Sweden and it's social-economic system. It is also a "poem" to
USA Capitalism, which I find personally disgusting. However, the
powes that be in all facets of the USA portray "socialism" as a
disease that makes all men and women boring clones of one another.
Comments like Ulvskog's re-inforces that propanda in the USA. Altho
Sweden has made some mistakes in its socialist efforts, some pointed
out in this article, I still and cheering for them! However, the
*stress* on conformity is not necessary for human beings to live
peacefully together.
Thus I vote to get J's name out of the FAQ - it is a thinly
disguised *pressure* for social conformity, which will hurt Sweden
and all types/degress of socialism.
I hope others speak out on this.
Elaine
P.S. I apologize for typos above - e.g. powes-powers. I can't
edit on this system when I use it at home, but for $25 a yr, I
don't complain. :)
Jyrki Nuotio
Elaine:
<I agree with Jorma completely - i.e. there should be NO mention of
names
<in a Flame FAQ. It is implicit harassment and censorship of the person
<named - both extremely offensive to me!
Mentioning names in Flame FAQ is flame. Another form of flame
is publishing kill file lists with names.
- jyrki
Jorma Kyppo
yli...@sqc.fi (Kari Yli-Kuha) wrote:
> jo...@jytko.jyu.fi (Jorma Kypp|) writes:
> : What made me a bit confused was the part, that focused on flames.
> : I found this one:
> : "One of the purposes of this FAQ is in fact to decrease the amount of
> : flaming and the frequency of the same old threads; if you're a newcomer,
> : please read through at least this part of the FAQ (the rest is up to
> : your tastes), and you may be able to avoid some of the most common
> : mistakes made by new SCNers (e.g. posting a flamy article condemning
> : Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with Jarmo Ryyti. :)"
> : So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
> : warns about flames includes a flame itself! The smiley in the end doesn't
> : repair the mistake.
> : I would be interested to know, who wrote this part of text and like
> Regardless of who wrote that piece of the FAQ I and - I believe - many
(s)he appears on the scene and takes
a responsibility
> others who've followed s.c.n for quite some time agree that there's no
> point starting an argument with a person who doesn't discuss but,
> rather, used some kind of "hit and run" tactics in his "discussions".
So why not to speak about "hit and run" tactics... *but without names*.
That's the point.
> By this I mean that most of the time JR makes a claim, justified or
> not, and when somebody who replies wanting to discuss the subject
> further, JR simply ignores the counter arguments - i.e. either replies
> with silence or all of a sudden changes the subject to his liking.
> I don't think this argumentation style is very constructive and newcomers
> in s.c.n may find this kind of behaviour arrogant and even repulsive -
> therefore a word of warning is in place so they'd know what to expect.
You might be right...or wrong. I've no opinion about this matter.
BUT: that is absolutely unessential in this case.
What you told might be nordic culture, mean JR:) and therefore there
might be some idea to discuss even about JR in s.c.n, just like
to discuss about the writing style of JK, KY, AA, JO,......
BUT FAQ IS NOT A RIGHT PLACE TO DISCUSS ABOUT IT!
Unless you like to ruin FAQs, to decrease their value and make
them in purpose subjective.
It should be: "in faq you can find facts" not
"faq on you!"
> I for one try at any cost to avoid arguing with an arrogant and
> self-centred person, both in private life and in s.c.n - it's not
> fruitful.
Absolutely irrelevant .... in FAQ.
> : Finnish-Swedish language politics) and the only difference I've
> : found out is the opposite opinion. I also haven't found any reason
> : why the sentence in FAQ couldn't be written: "..or starting an argument
> : with Johan Olofsson...:)"
> The subtle difference is that JO discusses, JR doesn't...
It is just matter of opinion. I don't have mine, you have yours, but
FAQ shouldn't have any.
> : In the beginnig of the FAQ there was a list of assistants, that I found
> : interesting. I would like to know about the criteria how this list
> : was made?
> I think it simply consists of persons who have somehow contributed
> to the FAQ, or persons who have been active readers/contributors in
> s.c.n for several years.
Hmm.. I found out, that JR had sent a material about Jyvaskyla to
FAQ, but I didn't see him in the list.
> : Conclusion: if we want to keep FAQ as a FAQ, there shouldn't be included
> : any personal flames. Perhaps there should be added even a chapter
> : under the title: "What is a FAQ-flame?". I offer this article:)
> I don't think this can be seen as a flame, but rather as a warning.
Then there shouldn't been told any names.
> : like many of the readers from Sweden to States. We use to
> : meet only here, mean in s.c.n.
> Why "mean"?
I meant "mean" like after "I" in the left, not "mean" as there's
no reason to be mean to anybody in FAQs. Ok:)
Jorma Kyppo
Laukaa
Finland
jo...@jytko.jyu.fi
Antti A Lahelma
[removed jyu.test from Newsgroups...did you hope I'd get mailspammed?]
In <4n73em$8...@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> Jorma Kyppo <jo...@jytko.jyu.fi> writes:
>yli...@sqc.fi (Kari Yli-Kuha) wrote:
>> : Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with Jarmo Ryyti. :)"
>> : So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
>> : warns about flames includes a flame itself!
Not a flame but a simple statement of fact. If Serdar Argic were a s.c.n
regular I'd mention him too.
>> : I would be interested to know, who wrote this part of text and like
>> Regardless of who wrote that piece of the FAQ I and - I believe - many
> ^ yes, who? I can't see anything regard until
> (s)he appears on the scene and takes
> a responsibility
Everything in there is by me unless otherwise stated. It probably says
so somewhere, too.
>So why not to speak about "hit and run" tactics... *but without names*.
>That's the point.
*yawn* You don't have a point, you're just hurt and thirsty for revenge
because I called all your articles silly...
>It is just matter of opinion. I don't have mine, you have yours, but
>FAQ shouldn't have any.
Says who? The faq presents my opinions about cross-posting and net-nazis,
too - why aren't you complaining? Surely you feel at least a little bit
oppressed when the faq says cross-posting ought to be avoided?
>> I think it simply consists of persons who have somehow contributed
>> to the FAQ, or persons who have been active readers/contributors in
>> s.c.n for several years.
>Hmm.. I found out, that JR had sent a material about Jyvaskyla to
>FAQ, but I didn't see him in the list.
The names listed are people who've sent major pieces of text, I can't
list everyone, it'd get too long. Jarmo copied one paragraph from a
Jyvaskyla tourist brochure and sent it to me, of which I'm thankful,
of course.
LVX,
--
Antti Lahelma "Tragedy is the farce that involves our
alah...@cc.helsinki.fi sympathies: farce is the tragedy that
University of Helsinki happens to outsiders." --Aldous Huxley
Jorma Kypp|
Antti A Lahelma (alah...@cc.helsinki.fi) wrote:
> [removed jyu.test from Newsgroups...did you hope I'd get mailspammed?]
I don't want anybody to get mailspammed. There are thousands of
readers and probably I didn't think at all Mr. A.L. Besides
jyu.test sends only and exactly one mail. No more. I'm not even sure if
it reaches fellows out of Jyvaskyla:)
Another word of explanation: last week all the postings from Jyvaskyla
were because of some reason closed in Jyv{skyl{. There were some
"warning" problems already in last week.
In last autumn, I personally had a complicated newsgroup-problem,
that lasted 7 weeks! I found after a week another means to pass
tha wall, but it indeed took so long time until our operator succeeded
to find the fault. Already few days before that, I found out,
that those my postings, that were pointed also in some Jyvaskyla
newsgroup succeeded to pass the "interwall".
And exactly so it was now. In last weeks I succeeded to send through
only such articles and later on I've found out, that in test group
postings the difference in time was remarkable: 30 hours versus 45 minutes!
What could be the reason?
> In <4n73em$8...@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> Jorma Kyppo <jo...@jytko.jyu.fi> writes:
> >yli...@sqc.fi (Kari Yli-Kuha) wrote:
> >> : Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with Jarmo Ryyti. :)"
> >> : So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
> >> : warns about flames includes a flame itself!
> Not a flame but a simple statement of fact. If Serdar Argic were a s.c.n
> regular I'd mention him too.
Serdar Argic(who he is?) has nothing to do in FAQ if he isn't a political,
cultural, etc.. person in Nordic countries.
Naturally I would have protested even if I'd seen A. ALahelma in FAQ,
especially painted in black...
This is not only a question about the objectivity of FAQs, but
their authority generally. If this kind of personal opinions become
common in FAQ, who care about them anymore....
FAQs drop down on the level of any other newsgroup article and
if somebody suggests to take at first a look on FAQ, (s)he will
see only an ironical smile. Or hear some nice laughing..
> >> : I would be interested to know, who wrote this part of text and like
> >> Regardless of who wrote that piece of the FAQ I and - I believe - many
> > ^ yes, who? I can't see anything regard until
> > (s)he appears on the scene and takes
> > a responsibility
> Everything in there is by me unless otherwise stated. It probably says
> so somewhere, too.
Belive me. You got my points here. I respect honesty.
> >So why not to speak about "hit and run" tactics... *but without names*.
> >That's the point.
> *yawn* You don't have a point, you're just hurt and thirsty for revenge
> because I called all your articles silly...
You write FAQs?
It must be indeed difficult to be sometime an objective, neutral person
and in same time so fulfilled by personal feelings and coloured opinions.
Why on earth I should revenge somebody because of so silly reason?
Besides, originally I understood, that the author was J.O.
It is indeed depressive if even people, who write FAQs can't separate
personal feelings and things discussed about.
Naturally it is ok to call me silly, but to use FAQs as tools
to bring out personal opinions about opinions is not.
> >It is just matter of opinion. I don't have mine, you have yours, but
> >FAQ shouldn't have any.
> Says who? The faq presents my opinions about cross-posting and net-nazis,
> too - why aren't you complaining? Surely you feel at least a little bit
> oppressed when the faq says cross-posting ought to be avoided?
What about listing there then half of the names of s.c.n writers and
how they were called sometimes by someone. I guess (after reading s.c.n.
for some time:) that you will find a great amount of racists, chauvinists,
etc.. etc..
Btw: in which group did you put J.R. and how many names of neo-nazis
we can find in FAQ.
Or could we call this phenomena as faq-racism or faq-fascism?
> >> I think it simply consists of persons who have somehow contributed
> >> to the FAQ, or persons who have been active readers/contributors in
> >> s.c.n for several years.
> >Hmm.. I found out, that JR had sent a material about Jyvaskyla to
> >FAQ, but I didn't see him in the list.
> The names listed are people who've sent major pieces of text, I can't
> list everyone, it'd get too long. Jarmo copied one paragraph from a
> Jyvaskyla tourist brochure and sent it to me, of which I'm thankful,
> of course.
Oh yes, I do understand. There is some kind of point system to get
your name in the list. How many rows of text you have sent and how
great deal of that text you have invented by your self (not using ready
sources). Is it possible now to give the points of all in the list
and in same give a hint what's the number of points to get from
the level "I'm thankful of course" up to level "Net gods and goddesses"?
And once more: nothing personal
not with JR
not with AA
This is a principal matter.
Perttu Raivio
>>>> Ac dixit "Jorma" == Jorma Kypp|:
Jorma>
Jorma> So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
Jorma> warns about flames includes a flame itself!
Not a flame. Just a simple statement of an objective fact.
Actually to prevent mindless, perpetual rantings and the same
"facts" being repeated ad nauseam, you shouldn't send _any-
thing_ to s.c.n ever, as it is a well known fact that by the
third reply the J-people have managed to turn the "discussion"
into an automated re-sending of the same shit about the
oppression of the Finnish speakers in Sweden. Regardless of
the original subject.
--
We feel sorry for people who don't drink because when you get up in the
morning, that's as good as you're gonna feel for the rest of the day.
-- Frank Sinatra
Antti A Lahelma
In <4n8ae4$h...@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> jo...@jytko.jyu.fi (Jorma Kypp|) writes:
>Antti A Lahelma (alah...@cc.helsinki.fi) wrote:
>> [removed jyu.test from Newsgroups...did you hope I'd get mailspammed?]
>I don't want anybody to get mailspammed. There are thousands of
>readers and probably I didn't think at all Mr. A.L. Besides
>jyu.test sends only and exactly one mail. No more.
Yeah, yeah, it was a joke... :)
>What could be the reason?
Ask your admins.
>> >> : Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with Jarmo Ryyti. :)"
>> >> : So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
>> >> : warns about flames includes a flame itself!
>> Not a flame but a simple statement of fact. If Serdar Argic were a s.c.n
>> regular I'd mention him too.
>Serdar Argic(who he is?) has nothing to do in FAQ if he isn't a political,
>cultural, etc.. person in Nordic countries.
Argic is (or was, I haven't bothered to check if he's still around) the
Turkish equivalent of Jarmo; a chauvinistic maniac with a kooky agenda,
who has turned several newsgroups into permanent warzones. Conceivably
his tactiques are even dirtier than Jarmo's, but the end result is the
same - the group becomes unreadable.
The only way to deal with this kind of character (and most newsgroups
seem to have at least one) in an unmoderated group is to subtly advise
new readers to try not to get involved with him. In the long run, the
only other option is moderation. I understand that you want neither, but
obviously you haven't been around long enough to quite figure out this
Usenet thing. It has *nothing* to do with the guys opinions and anti-
Armenian (or in Jarmo's case anti-Swedish) agenda; all it has to do with
is the readability of the Usenet. I didn't say "Jarmo Ryyti is a bloody
moron, avoid him for that reason." It's not a flame to say that he clogs
the group with his crusade. It's a fact.
It's the same with the Norwegian whales; the fact that I don't think it's
a good idea to raise hell about the evils of Norwegian whaling implies
*nothing* about my feelings regarding the issue - in fact I'm pretty much
against it myself and on some other forum might like to criticize it openly,
but out of experience I know that in here, nothing except chaos ever follows
from it.
>Why on earth I should revenge somebody because of so silly reason?
I don't know, but your first complaint (concerning the ascii-flag) was too
silly even to be explained merely by your normal silly state of mind, so
I assume there's some sort of personal bitterness involved.
>> Says who? The faq presents my opinions about cross-posting and net-nazis,
>> too - why aren't you complaining? Surely you feel at least a little bit
>> oppressed when the faq says cross-posting ought to be avoided?
>What about listing there then half of the names of s.c.n writers and
>how they were called sometimes by someone. I guess (after reading s.c.n.
>for some time:) that you will find a great amount of racists, chauvinists,
>etc.. etc..
>Btw: in which group did you put J.R. and how many names of neo-nazis
>we can find in FAQ.
>Or could we call this phenomena as faq-racism or faq-fascism?
You can call it whatever you like, but first you could take the time to
read the faq, after which you might realize that I in fact mean avowed
neo-nazis - the Aryan White Resistance sort of trash who surface in s.c.n
from time to time, post a Nazi flyer and run off, causing a lot of confusion.
No s.c.n regulars fall into that category.
>Oh yes, I do understand. There is some kind of point system to get
>your name in the list. How many rows of text you have sent and how
>great deal of that text you have invented by your self (not using ready
>sources). Is it possible now to give the points of all in the list
>and in same give a hint what's the number of points to get from
>the level "I'm thankful of course" up to level "Net gods and goddesses"?
Two sentences of text, written by some tourist bureau clerk and not by
JR himself, is not quite my idea of "substantial help". All of the
people listed have written a whole article or several or have regularly
corrected typos, language & factual mistakes. It's touching that you take
Jarmo's sad fate so personally, but I assure you that I haven't discriminated
against him or anyone else in this most crucial of issues because of any
personal antipathies or disagreements.
>This is a principal matter.
Hallelujah.
Jorma Kypp|
Antti A Lahelma (alah...@cc.helsinki.fi) wrote:
> In <4n8ae4$h...@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> jo...@jytko.jyu.fi (Jorma Kypp|) writes:
> >Antti A Lahelma (alah...@cc.helsinki.fi) wrote:
> >> >> : Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with Jarmo Ryyti. :)"
> >> >> : So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
> >> >> : warns about flames includes a flame itself!
> >> Not a flame but a simple statement of fact. If Serdar Argic were a s.c.n
> >> regular I'd mention him too.
> >Serdar Argic(who he is?) has nothing to do in FAQ if he isn't a political,
> >cultural, etc.. person in Nordic countries.
> Argic is (or was, I haven't bothered to check if he's still around) the
> Turkish equivalent of Jarmo; a chauvinistic maniac with a kooky agenda,
> who has turned several newsgroups into permanent warzones. Conceivably
> his tactiques are even dirtier than Jarmo's, but the end result is the
> same - the group becomes unreadable.
That's *your* personal opinion. That might be also the opinion of several
others, but still just an opinion. Not suitable in FAQ.
Unless there will be added also the opposite opinions. Is it possible?
About chauvinism, see below.
> The only way to deal with this kind of character (and most newsgroups
> seem to have at least one) in an unmoderated group is to subtly advise
> new readers to try not to get involved with him.
Have you ever thought, that they should also be warned not to get involved
with you? I can't see principally the big difference?
FAQ shouldn't be used as a tool against other discussers.
If so.... then it is no FAQ.
> In the long run, the
> only other option is moderation. I understand that you want neither, but
> obviously you haven't been around long enough to quite figure out this
> Usenet thing. It has *nothing* to do with the guys opinions and anti-
> Armenian (or in Jarmo's case anti-Swedish) agenda;
Anti-Swedish? Is he finally? And is this matter somehow essential in
case of the FAQs?
> all it has to do with
> is the readability of the Usenet. I didn't say "Jarmo Ryyti is a bloody
> moron,
Perhaps you should have told, what you think. But not in the FAQ.
> avoid him for that reason." It's not a flame to say that he clogs
> the group with his crusade. It's a fact.
Why not then to add there also your name. Perhaps also Kari, Svante,
Johan, Jorma ...?
> It's the same with the Norwegian whales; the fact that I don't think it's
> a good idea to raise hell about the evils of Norwegian whaling implies
> *nothing* about my feelings regarding the issue - in fact I'm pretty much
> against it myself and on some other forum might like to criticize it openly,
> but out of experience I know that in here, nothing except chaos ever follows
> from it.
Your opinion about whaling you can express in s.c.n, but not in FAQ.
Otherwise it is no FAQ.
> >Why on earth I should revenge somebody because of so silly reason?
> I don't know, but your first complaint (concerning the ascii-flag) was too
> silly even to be explained merely by your normal silly state of mind, so
> I assume there's some sort of personal bitterness involved.
naturally I wasn't whole serious, as quite often, when typing it. But still:
what I told anyway revealed something hidden in the minds of the authors,
or in the minds of most of us. A hidden chauvinism. That can be read also
between the rows of your comment above.
Are Greenland and Sami also part of s.c.n?
> >> Says who? The faq presents my opinions about cross-posting and net-nazis,
> >> too - why aren't you complaining?
I didn't see any names.
> >> Surely you feel at least a little bit
> >> oppressed when the faq says cross-posting ought to be avoided?
What is cross-posting? I've been asking very carefully about the rules
and possible problems from our operator. I don't crosspost.
> >What about listing there then half of the names of s.c.n writers and
> >how they were called sometimes by someone. I guess (after reading s.c.n.
> >for some time:) that you will find a great amount of racists, chauvinists,
> >etc.. etc..
> >Btw: in which group did you put J.R. and how many names of neo-nazis
> >we can find in FAQ.
> >Or could we call this phenomena as faq-racism or faq-fascism?
> You can call it whatever you like, but first you could take the time to
> read the faq,
Whar FAQ? It seems, that there's no FAQ anymore in s.c.n. Only a sandbox
of somebody....
Pity.
> after which you might realize that I in fact mean avowed
> neo-nazis - the Aryan White Resistance sort of trash who surface in s.c.n
> from time to time, post a Nazi flyer and run off, causing a lot of confusion.
> No s.c.n regulars fall into that category.
So let's not be faqracists, ok?
> >Oh yes, I do understand. There is some kind of point system to get
> >your name in the list. How many rows of text you have sent and how
> >great deal of that text you have invented by your self (not using ready
> >sources). Is it possible now to give the points of all in the list
> >and in same give a hint what's the number of points to get from
> >the level "I'm thankful of course" up to level "Net gods and goddesses"?
> Two sentences of text, written by some tourist bureau clerk and not by
> JR himself, is not quite my idea of "substantial help". All of the
> people listed have written a whole article or several or have regularly
> corrected typos, language & factual mistakes. It's touching that you take
> Jarmo's sad fate so personally, but I assure you that I haven't discriminated
> against him or anyone else in this most crucial of issues because of any
> personal antipathies or disagreements.
You lost the point. I'm not interested about JR, but general rules.
How much, what kind? How you measure these things and what are the
credits of the others in your list?
> >This is a principal matter.
> Hallelujah.
I sign the last one.
Johan Olofsson
Hello Jyrki.
12 May 96 23:27, Jyrki Nuotio wrote:
JN> Elaine:
JN> <I agree with Jorma completely - i.e. there should be NO mention of
JN> names <in a Flame FAQ. It is implicit harassment and censorship of
JN> the person <named - both extremely offensive to me!
JN> Mentioning names in Flame FAQ is flame. Another form of flame
JN> is publishing kill file lists with names.
I think we all in our beginning of our net-lives have got a bunch of documents
to read. In case you haven't seen them for long, I take the liberty to repeat
one of the basic ones:
(... and, yes I promise! After this day I SHALL try to stop posting old texts.)
=== Cut ===
NETIQUETTE
by the Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
One of these days you're going to get tired of Web surfing or listening
in on LISTSERVs, IRCs, Usenet newsgroups or whatever, and you're going
to want to say something yourself. At that moment your life will
change. Let's see if we can't make that a change for the better.
Evangelism:
Everyone is tempted from time to time to evangelize, to stride boldly
into the enemy's camp and throw down the gauntlet. We will never see
the end of people who pop up on comp.sys.intel praising Macs and
Amigas; who send mail to the SKEPTIC list that flying saucers really,
truly do exist; who enlighten the Buddhist newsgroups that they're all
bound for hell, and on and on.
In the entire history of the net, no one has managed to do this without
looking like a complete idiot. If you believe you are the one person
who will succeed where millions have failed, then you're ready to learn
about ...
Flames:
There is nothing you can say that won't offend somebody:
>It's a bright, sunny day today.
You filthy *@!?$, what have you got against Seattle?
Flames (violent verbal expressions of disapproval), misunderstandings,
overreactions, and hurt feelings are par for the course. Four lessons
from experience:
(1) Hedge your bets. Rather than saying, "Metal rules! Death to all
that appose!!" try saying "In my humble opinion (often abbreviated
IMHO) metal bands perfectly express my feelings, choices, and
lifestyle. Your mileage may vary" (another net cliche', less
frequently abbreviated YMMV). By the way, BTW is another frequent net
abbreviation, for what it's worth (FWIW).
(2) Apologize. When misunderstanding is the culprit, and especially if
you respect the person who misunderstood, take the blame on yourself
for being unclear, apologize, say what you meant more clearly (if
appropriate) and put it behind you. As in real life (remember that?)
people who are quick to anger are often equally quick to forgive.
(3) Avoid flame bait (conduct which gravely offends the norms, mores
and folkways of a particular group). "Now wait a minute!" you say.
"Do you mean that something that's accepted behavior on one list or
newsgroup will draw dozens of stinging, ridiculing comments in
another?" I sure do. What can you do? Lurk a while before you post.
Read what's said like an anthropologist, trying to discover what the
big no-nos are. The beginning of a school term is a wonderful time to
do this, as you will observe the clueless newbies who weren't smart
enough to read this paragraph being torn to shreds. There are
some things you should NEVER do, and we'll list them in a minute, but
let's get to the last bit of advice.
(4) Bow down to the group's gods. In every Usenet newsgroup and
listserv mailing list there are old, grey heads who have earned the
respect of everyone in the group. For example, amongst the subscribers
to the list discussing the late American bandleader Stan Kenton are the
producer of a Kenton box set and the authors of definitive Kenton
biographies and discographies. You are entirely ignorant compared to
those people. Never pretend you're anything else. They would dearly
love to help you -- to answer a question, help you find a rare record
-- but you'll always come out second best in a head-butting contest
with them.
Still other group members have earned their status through long
service. Friendships have developed over many years, and marriage is
not unknown. By commenting abusively to or about one of these gods,
you'll earn not only her enmity, but the enmity of all of her friends
-- which may be everyone in the group but you!
Dos and don'ts (or how to avoid most flames):
(1) DON'T include the entire con- (1) DO cut mercilessly. Leave just
tents of a previous posting in enough to indicate what you're
your reply. responding to. NEVER include mail
headers except maybe the "From:"
line. If you can't figure out how
to delete lines in your mailer
software, paraphrase or type the
quoted material in.
(2) DON'T reply to a point in a (2) DO quote (briefly) or para-
posting without quoting or para- phrase. If the original "Subject:"
phrasing what you're responding to line was "Big dogs" make sure yours
and who said it. Reason: a dozen says "Re: Big dogs". Some REPLY
postings may occur between the functions do this automatically.
original message and your reply. By net convention, included lines
At some sites your reply may get are preceded by ">" (greater-than
there before the original. signs). Some mail editors and
newsreaders do this automatically.
Others require you to do it manu-
ally or set the "indent character"
to ">".
(3) DON'T send a message saying (3) It's always a risk to start a
"Why doesn't anybody say anything new topic (often called a thread).
about X?" or "Who wants to talk The group may have just finished a
about X?" long, bitter war about that very
subject. But if you want to take
the risk, SAY SOMETHING yourself
about the subject you're raising.
(4) DON'T send lines longer than (4) Some mail editor tools only
70 characters. This is a kindness SEEM to insert line breaks for you,
to folks with terminal-based mail but actually don't, so that every
editors or newsreaders. Some mail paragraph is one immense line.
gateways truncate extra characters Learn what your mail editor does.
turning your deathless prose into
gibberish.
(5) DON'T SEND A MESSAGE IN ALL (5) DO use normal capitalization.
CAPS. CAPITALIZED MESSAGES ARE Separate your paragraphs with blank
HARDER TO READ THAN LOWER CASE OR lines. Make your message inviting
MIXED CASE. to your potential readers.
(6) DON'T betray confidences. It (6) DO read the "To:" and "Cc:"
is all too easy to quote a personal lines in your message before you
letter in a posting to the entire send it. Are you SURE you want the
group. mail to go there?
(7) DON'T make statements which (7) DO treat every post as though
can be interpreted as official po- you were sending a copy to your
sitions of your organization or boss, your minister, and your worst
offers to do business. Saying enemy.
"Boy, I'd sure like to have one of
them Crays" could result in a
truck at your loading dock and a
bill in the mail even larger than
your student loan.
(8) DON'T rely on the ability of (8) DO remember that no one can
your readers to tell the differ- hear your tone of voice. Use emo-
ence between serious statements ticons (or smilies) like :-) or ;^)
and satire or sarcasm. It's hard -- turn your head counterclockwise
to write funny. It's even harder to see the smile. You can also use
to write satire. caps for emphasis or use net con-
ventions for italics and underlines
as in: You said the guitar solo on
"Comfortably Numb" from Pink
Floyd's _The Wall_ was *lame*? Are
you OUT OF YOUR MIND???!!!
(9) DON'T make a posting that says (9) DO remember the immortal words
nothing but "Me, too." This is of Martin Farquhar Tupper (1810-
most annoying when combined with 1889): "Well-timed silence hath
(1) or (2) above. Ditto for "I more eloquence than speech."
don't know."
A word to people living in the United States: the net is
international. If you tell a Belgian she's being unAmerican, SHE ISN'T
OFFENDED. OF COURSE she's unAmerican; you're unBelgian. She doesn't
care about being lectured on the First Amendment and American values.
She doesn't HAVE a First Amendment, and she thinks Belgian values are
BETTER. We Americans have made fools of ourselves by forgetting this
everywhere else. Let's try to behave a little better on the net.
Finally, many groups have had the sense to write down some of their
norms and folkways in a frequently asked questions (FAQ) list along
with (what else?) the answers to frequently asked questions. Many
Usenet FAQs are posted monthly or so on the news.answers. Listowners
of listservs are often quite willing to mail you the FAQ for the list.
In fact, they may have already told you where it is in the letter you
get welcoming you to the list.
With all we've said above, and with all the help newsgroup moderators
and listowners are providing to newcomers, it almost seems like you'd
have to work at it to go charging in with your mouth open and your eyes
and ears shut, thereby aggravating and alienating some otherwise
perfectly nice people. The good Lord gave us two eyes and two ears and
one mouth to remind us of that very thing. But he gave us ten fingers,
and here we are.
=== Cut ===
--
e-mail: johan.o...@magnus.ct.se
s-mail: Majeldsvägen 8a, 582 63 Linköping
Jyrki Nuotio
Jorma> So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the
text, that
Jorma> warns about flames includes a flame itself!
PerttU
< Actually to prevent mindless, perpetual rantings and the same
< "facts" being repeated ad nauseam, you shouldn't send _any-
< thing_ to s.c.n ever, as it is a well known fact that by the
< third reply the J-people have managed to turn the "discussion"
< into an automated re-sending of the same shit about the
< oppression of the Finnish speakers in Sweden. Regardless of
< the original subject.
That is not true. E.g. the Himmelbjerg thread there
was not discussed the language situation in Sweden.
The language question has been discussed in the
threads dealing with the language question.
- jyrki
Jyrki Nuotio
spomebody wrote:
>Serdar Argic(who he is?) has nothing to do in FAQ if he isn't a
political,
>cultural, etc.. person in Nordic countries.
From: alah...@cc.helsinki.fi (Antti A Lahelma)
<Argic is (or was, I haven't bothered to check if he's still around)
the
<Turkish equivalent of Jarmo; a chauvinistic maniac with a kooky
agenda,
<who has turned several newsgroups into permanent warzones. Conceivably
<his tactiques are even dirtier than Jarmo's, but the end result is the
<same - the group becomes unreadable.
IMHO the above comment is not true. Jarmo has posted very
pertinent articles and it seems that he is very concerned about the
human rights of the Finnish speakers in Sweden. I have been watching
the
Swedish TV and it seems that the Finnish speakers are
trying to improve their life in Sweden and *keep* their
own culture and language.
From: alah...@cc.helsinki.fi (Antti A Lahelma)
< The only way to deal with this kind of character (and most newsgroups
< seem to have at least one) in an unmoderated group is to subtly advise
< new readers to try not to get involved with him. In the long run, the
< only other option is moderation. I understand that you want neither,
but
< obviously you haven't been around long enough to quite figure out this
<Usenet thing. It has *nothing* to do with the guys opinions and anti-
< Armenian (or in Jarmo's case anti-Swedish) agenda; all it has to do
with
< is the readability of the Usenet. I didn't say "Jarmo Ryyti is a
bloody
< moron, avoid him for that reason." It's not a flame to say that he
clogs
< the group with his crusade. It's a fact.
Should we beware of people who try to shut up other people or who
attempt to bash them by comparing them with some nasty persons.
Jarmo has no anti-Swedish agenda as he is trying to improve the
human rights of the people living in Sweden. That is very pro Sweden.
From: alah...@cc.helsinki.fi (Antti A Lahelma):
< It's the same with the Norwegian whales; the fact that I don't think
it's
< a good idea to raise hell about the evils of Norwegian whaling implies
< *nothing* about my feelings regarding the issue - in fact I'm pretty
much
< against it myself and on some other forum might like to criticize it
openly,
< but out of experience I know that in here, nothing except chaos ever
follows
< from it.
Why not hear what the whalers have to say. If people cannot discuss
here about whales or language policy of Sweden, why this group is
existing? But when we discuss, let us do so using polite words and
never
bashing people whose ideas we do not aggree.
- jyrki
Hiski Haapoja
Jorma Kypp|:
>So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
>repair the mistake.
Why don't you just jump into a well or something?
>P.S. Just to avoid possible wrong conclusions I like to add, that
> even though Mr. J.R. and me have quite similar name and we
Yes, Kyppö and Ryyti are _so_ close to each other. Both have five
letters, for instance.
No smileys here.
--
# Will someone please take the canned laughter off British and American
TV comedies and put it where it belongs - behind the political speeches? #
Kari Yli-Kuha
Jorma Kyppo <jo...@jytko.jyu.fi> writes:
: Perttu Raivio <Perttu...@tekla.fi> wrote:
: > >>>> Ac dixit "Jorma" == Jorma Kypp|:
: > Jorma> So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
: > Jorma> warns about flames includes a flame itself!
: > Not a flame. Just a simple statement of an objective fact.
: > Actually to prevent mindless, perpetual rantings and the same
: > "facts" being repeated ad nauseam, you shouldn't send _any-
:
: That is *again* just a personal opinion. If we start to find people,
: who "flame too much", "repeat themselves", "don't write serious
: articles", "lie", etc. etc.. and add their names to faq., we get
: on an endless swamp.
OK, I'll make a concrete proposal for the new text in the FAQ:
OLD:
One of the purposes of this FAQ is in fact to decrease the amount
of flaming and the frequency of the same old threads; if you're a
newcomer, please read through at least this part of the FAQ (the
rest is up to your tastes), and you may be able to avoid some of
the most common mistakes made by new SCNers (e.g. posting a flamy
article condemning Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument
with Jarmo Ryyti. :)
NEW:
... and you may be able to avoid some of the most common
mistakes made by new SCNers (e.g. posting a flamy article
condemning Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with
anyone from Jyväskylä)
This change would serve two purposes:
1) No names of any persons would be mentioned.
2) The name of the city of Jyväskylä, which currently seems to be
an integral part of Nordic culture (or, at least, soc.culture.nordic)
would be mentioned right at the beginning of the FAQ where it belongs.
howzzat?
: Jorma Kyppo
: Laukaa
: Finland
: jo...@jytko.jyu.fi
--
/Kari (male, btw.)
--
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. -Albert Einstein
Jorma Kypp|
And now, let's take a look how one of the "net gods" as s.c.n faq so
nicely expresses, want to tell us:
Hiski Haapoja (trh...@uta.fi) wrote:
> Jorma Kypp|:
> >So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
> >warns about flames includes a flame itself! The smiley in the end doesn't
> >repair the mistake.
> Why don't you just jump into a well or something?
> >P.S. Just to avoid possible wrong conclusions I like to add, that
> > even though Mr. J.R. and me have quite similar name and we
> Yes, Kyppö and Ryyti are _so_ close to each other. Both have five
> letters, for instance.
> No smileys here.
This kind of flaming doesn't tell us about good manners or
civilization of a spirit, but yes. It is allowed also
in s.c.n and I don't protest.
But flaming doesn't belong in FAQ.
Jorma Kyppo
> Jorma> warns about flames includes a flame itself!
> Not a flame. Just a simple statement of an objective fact.
> Actually to prevent mindless, perpetual rantings and the same
> "facts" being repeated ad nauseam, you shouldn't send _any-
.etc
That is *again* just a personal opinion. If we start to find people,
who "flame too much", "repeat themselves", "don't write serious
articles", "lie", etc. etc.. and add their names to faq., we get
on an endless swamp.
The line between "good" and "bad" writers is drawn on thew water.
We shouldn't draw it in the faq.
Peter Janson
Perttu Raivio wrote:
>
> --
> We feel sorry for people who don't drink because when you get up in the
> morning, that's as good as you're gonna feel for the rest of the day.
>
> -- Frank Sinatra
Sorry to digress, but wasn't it that drunkard Dean Martin who said that?
--
Peter
"Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary.
It's them twisting it that ruins it for me." -J. Lennon
Risto Kauppinen
Jorma Kyppo (jo...@jytko.jyu.fi) wrote:
> The line between "good" and "bad" writers is drawn on thew water.
> We shouldn't draw it in the faq.
This must be the first time I agree with Jorma on something--at least
partially. At first the singling out of JR in the FAQ didn't bother me
at all (maybe it's because I still agree with that assesment) but the
more I think about it the more I dislike it. The FAQ just isn't the
right place for that. To make similar example: if the FAQ stated that
certain prominent Finnish politician is fat as a pig (which is
debateble, at least I've never seen any pig even near that size--not
that I've seen many pigs) it would certainly be out line. Sometimes
it's just common courtesy not to say the truth aloud.
I don't have anything against more general warnings against certain type
of writers (juvenile cross-posters from alt.fuck.the.usa or whatever,
etc. ) but pointing out individuals is something else. Besides, I doubt
the part about J has done any good: or is there really anyone out there
who has decided *on the basis of the FAQ* that arguing with JR is a
waste of time?
Risto
--
No God we trust.
Perttu Raivio
>>>> Ac dixit "Jorma" == Jorma Kyppo:
Jorma>
Jorma> That is *again* just a personal opinion.
OK. Here's an objective fact, ready to be added to the FAQ:
"In s.c.n the discussions often tend to gravitate towards a
non-variable repetition of articles by certain writers who
see the Swedish speakers, and Sweden in particular, as an
oppressive imperialistic force. You might note that these
articles seldom have any relation to the subject of the
thread or the matters discussed earlier in the thread. As
these articles have never led the discussion anywhere, they
are best left unanswered."
Jorma> The line between "good" and "bad" writers is drawn on thew water.
Jorma> We shouldn't draw it in the faq.
No writers mentioned, just observations shown true by
empirical tests...
--
Kill "Bob", or kill me.
Kari Yli-Kuha
skjk...@cc.Helsinki.FI (Sami K J Kukkonen) writes:
: Or.. ... (e.g. posting a flamy article condemning Norwegian whaling, or
: starting an argument with anyone from Tampere.)
:
: This would be useful for the newcomers, because, as everyone knows,
: Tampere is the center of stalinism in Finland. All students of the
: University of Tampere and in fact all people from Tampere are hard-core
: stalinists. And it's also a well-known fact that ever since the early
: 70's the stalinists of Tampere have been compiling lists of people to be
: hanged when they start their communist rebellion. By warning newcomers
: in advance, they could avoid trouble with these stalinist criminals.
:-)))
Now, there's a sweeping generalization if I've ever seen one... or was
it meant as a flame-bait? The only thing you forgot from your list is
the local blood sausage called "mustamakkara" which is actually made
of the blood of the people already assassinated in the Tapola
Slaughterhouse (a.k.a Tapolan Palvaamo) :-)
Tampere has its "red" history, as do most major industrial cities
throughout Europe, including England - it's not a coincidence that
Manchester is the friendship city of Tampere. And the neighbouring
city called Nokia (where the current worldwide company Nokia
originates) is probably still one of the leftmost municipalities in
Finland.
: In my humble opinion it's a lot more important to keep your name off a
: list of people to be murdered than it is to avoid a pointless argument.
Beware, you're on my red list... :-)
Seriously, after reading all these opinions about the mention of JR in
the FAQ I think it would be best just to leave out the names
altogether. Jarmo, who himself has wisely abstained from the whole
discussion started by J. Kyppö, probably laughs self-content about all
this fuss.
After all, as the advertising people say: "it's not important what
kind of publicity you get, what's important is to get publicity".
And who the hell reads FAQ's, anyway?
--
/Kari (male, btw.)
--
Advertising may be described as the science of arresting human
intelligence long enough to get money from it. -Stephen Leacock
Sami K J Kukkonen
Kari Yli-Kuha (yli...@sqc.fi) wrote:
[...]
> NEW:
> ... and you may be able to avoid some of the most common
Or.. ... (e.g. posting a flamy article condemning Norwegian whaling, or
starting an argument with anyone from Tampere.)
This would be useful for the newcomers, because, as everyone knows,
Tampere is the center of stalinism in Finland. All students of the
University of Tampere and in fact all people from Tampere are hard-core
stalinists. And it's also a well-known fact that ever since the early
70's the stalinists of Tampere have been compiling lists of people to be
hanged when they start their communist rebellion. By warning newcomers
in advance, they could avoid trouble with these stalinist criminals.
In my humble opinion it's a lot more important to keep your name off a
list of people to be murdered than it is to avoid a pointless argument.
--
Sami
Johan Olofsson
14 May 96 15:45, Jorma Kypp| wrote:
JK> Have you ever thought, that they should also be warned not to get
JK> involved with you? I can't see principally the big difference? FAQ
JK> shouldn't be used as a tool against other discussers. If so.... then
JK> it is no FAQ.
>> all it has to do with is the readability of the Usenet. I didn't say
>> "Jarmo Ryyti is a bloody moron,
JK> Perhaps you should have told, what you think. But not in the FAQ.
No, in the FAQ he hints new users at the well established fact, that trying to
discuss with Jarmo Ryyti has proven to be devastating for the news group, and
aswell a secure path to unpopularity for the poor newcomer who tries this.
JK> Your opinion about whaling you can express in s.c.n, but not in FAQ.
JK> Otherwise it is no FAQ.
Stupidities!
Stop trying to change the meanings of words!!!
Jarmo tries to tell that "immigrant" and "native" have got a new meaning.
Jyrki tries to tell that "flame" and "abuse" have got a new meaning.
Elaine tries to tell that "censorship" has got a new meaning.
Jorma tries to tell that "FAQ" has a new meaning.
Couldn't you spare your private speak for e-mail and try to use conventional
definitions when writing public articles for recipients who have other native
languages?
It seems as the Jyväskylä-maffia has made a specialty out of new-speak, and as
Elaine has enrolled.
In this particular question the number of supporters of the J-mafia is bigger
than usual. Keld and Magnus Hurd have joined, at least regarding the main
question of to warn or not to warn in the introduction of the FAQ. On the other
side there are still more men, but I'm sure the mafia is more energetic and
tenacious, and a civil war in s.c.n. could end in any way.
I for one will not contribute to a civil war. I will from now on try to avoid
the subject of pros and cons for warning newcomers in the faq. Nobody could
have missed my opinion anyway.
JK> What is cross-posting? I've been asking very carefully about the rules
JK> and possible problems from our operator. I don't crosspost.
Yes you do, and I do now and then. I don't remember your last crossposting, but
some month ago it was about your black miss Finland, and before that it has
been with s.c.slovakia and alike lots of times.
The last month I _think_ I've seen you crossposting to/from alt.politics.ec and
talk.politics.european-union, haven't I?
JK> You lost the point. I'm not interested about JR, but general rules.
JK> How much, what kind? How you measure these things and what are the
JK> credits of the others in your list?
Another stupidity!
:->>>>
You can't be serious demanding the unofficial list of net gods being made after
general measures and rules.
I get problems staying on my chair if I continue reading your article.
regards!
Johan
Hiski Haapoja
Elaine S. Krasny:
>I agree with Jorma completely - i.e. there should be NO mention of names
>in a Flame FAQ. It is implicit harassment and censorship of the person
>named - both extremely offensive to me!
You are begging to be flamed to cinder, but I'll be polite due to the
scn lack of goddesses. A nameless flame FAQ would not make any sense.
J. Ryyti has worked hard for years to establish himself as our national
net.moron, and he deserves the credit he gets. Myself I would also
warn newcomers of J. Nuotio and J. Kyppö - the former because he seems
to have the IQ of a rodent, the latter because of his anti-EU crusade,
and both of them because they cannot distinguish between endless
propaganda and free speech.
Hiski
P.S. Ole Kreiberg probably is the Danish equivalent of J*rmo, but
are there any really nutty Swedes or Norwegians loose on the Net?
Elaine S. Krasny
Sami,
your post was fantastic!!!! I hope you notice that Histi is NOW
comparing J. Nuotti to a rodent and J. Kyppo to Ole Kreiberg just
because he is anti-EU - this crap breeds faster than rats. I have
also been "enrolled" by Johan the Swede in the "Finnish Mafia", but
that is a compliment from my point of view. :)
Best Regards,
Elaine
Kari Yli-Kuha
[this is my last posting concerning flame faq's - I promise...
these are just a few ideas that came to mind when reading this post]
jo...@jytko.jyu.fi (Jorma Kypp|) writes:
: Johan Olofsson (johan.o...@magnus.ct.se) wrote:
: > No, in the FAQ he hints new users at the well established fact, that trying to
: > discuss with Jarmo Ryyti has proven to be devastating for the news group, and
: > aswell a secure path to unpopularity for the poor newcomer who tries this.
:
: I was a poor renewcomer in last winter, who didn't understand what it
: may follow if I oppose Johan Olofsson. Now I know....:-).
... attempted sarcasm ...
: > JK> Your opinion about whaling you can express in s.c.n, but not in FAQ.
: > JK> Otherwise it is no FAQ.
: > Stupidities!
:
: Hmm... fact is, that a cool discussion without hot feelings about faq
: don't seem to be possible. I didn't know, that this subject can be
: so *tender*. can I smell some smoke....?:)
... attempt to heat the other participant, luckily Johan's smart enough not
to fall in this trap ...
: > Stop trying to change the meanings of words!!!
: > Jarmo tries to tell that "immigrant" and "native" have got a new meaning.
: > Jyrki tries to tell that "flame" and "abuse" have got a new meaning.
: > Elaine tries to tell that "censorship" has got a new meaning.
: > Jorma tries to tell that "FAQ" has a new meaning.
:
: Now you might understand, what I told former about me - the poor renewcomer
: (means a fellow, who had a pause in s.c.n). You are listing already four!
: writers in s.c.n.
: Are you going to continue your list? There might still be some writers in
: s.c.n, who sometimes may disagree with you.
: Do you sometimes feel, that the world is against you?
... continued attempt to heat ...
: > Couldn't you spare your private speak for e-mail and try to use conventional
: > definitions when writing public articles for recipients who have other native
: > languages?
:
: What is wrong with my definition of FAQ? I think, that I've tried to tell
: my opinions about faq as honestly, nicely, polite and straight as I can
: ..... in the private e-mails already. Right?
... use of nice words like "honest", "nice", "polite" etc. - but still in
an attempt to heat the "opponent" (but why is Johan an opponent, I wonder?) ...
: > It seems as the Jyväskylä-maffia has made a specialty out of new-speak, and as
: > Elaine has enrolled.
:
: Hmmm.. true is, that the mafia (I guess, that maffia = mafia) as word has
: gone through kind of inflation in Finland as we have already even an
: official Radio Mafia here. But still, I'm afraid, that it doesn't
: show very civilazed manners to use this kind of language in a pubic
: newsgroup, not even in private e-mail. In different cultures there
: are people, who might get hurted about this kind of language.
... attempt to step "above" the opponent by using semantic structures and
PC language (I wonder whether he's nordic after all, nordic people tend
to say what they mean, with the proper terms) ... "pubic newsgroup" -
hmmm. that's what this group actually has become after the start of the
"silly season" at about the same time when 2/3 of the J's arrived ...
: What about adding to FAQ few words about netiquette and the language,
: which might help fruitful dialogue.
: I'm actually quite surprized, that people who use this kind of flaming
: are also responible about FAQ.
... must be bitter when he's not mentioned in the faq - still an attempt
to heat the opponent ...
: > In this particular question the number of supporters of the J-mafia is bigger
: > than usual. Keld and Magnus Hurd have joined, at least regarding the main
: > question of to warn or not to warn in the introduction of the FAQ. On the other
: > side there are still more men, but I'm sure the mafia is more energetic and
: > tenacious, and a civil war in s.c.n. could end in any way.
:
: I just can't believe my eyes!!!!:):):)
... after heating, now he decides to attack ...
: You indeed seem to continue your list. Ok, now we have already 6 persons
: in Big Bad Mafia. Sounds very bad, very bad.
: Now we have to be very, very careful, you never know who else might be
: in mafia.....
... "sounds very bad, very bad" is one of Jarmoisms, I still wonder why
he thinks this usenet is some kind of verbal battleground? Isn't that what
Ruth once complained as well, before leaving this group, wonder where she is? ...
: Btw, just to say something useful. Mafia is a society with strong discipline
: and common strategy. Sorry to say, but the idea to write about flames in
: faqs came only from the stupid mind of Jorma Kyppo, the fellow who never
: asks anybody about any strategy. All his articles are born only in his
: own mind without any co-operation with anybody. Never.
: But I'm admired, that you put so much value on my articles, already
: six person team in my brains. Wau!
... "admired"? - probably means "flattered" - full of himself, otherwise he
wouldn't speak of himself in third person ...
: > I for one will not contribute to a civil war. I will from now on try to avoid
: > the subject of pros and cons for warning newcomers in the faq. Nobody could
: > have missed my opinion anyway.
:
: You were already thinking about war....?! Let's make a peace for a while.
: I don't write about faqs and you don't faq on me. Yes, yes, old joke...
... let's hope Johan keeps his promise, otherwise this verbal hair-splitting
will never cease - boy, this guy is good at twisting and making new
meanings for words ...
[...]
: > The last month I _think_ I've seen you crossposting to/from alt.politics.ec and
: > talk.politics.european-union, haven't I?
:
: They are my groups.
... "they are _my groups_", is he really attempting to possess newsgroups?
With his style - teaching other people how they should think, write and
act - it really looks plausible - how come he himself learns nothing?
Oh well - as O. Wilde has said: "The only thing one can do with good
advice is to pass it on. It is never of any use to oneself." ...
: Actually I got at first time to s.c.n when somebody
: had crossposted an article from s.c.n to a.p.e. As I told, I don't
.. where's that guy? I'm going to strangle him! ...
: count (based on words of our operator) 2-3 (even 4) groups as real
: cross-posting. Naturally I crosspost in these groups, when I touch
: such subjects, that are connected with Scandinavia and EU.
: And there are quite many of them, as a matter of fact.
... this guy's really trying to raise heated discussions where he can
feel himself at home ...
: > I get problems staying on my chair if I continue reading your article.
:
: Excellent! Laugh makes always good for a soul and is certainly
: better than flaming. Hope, that always this article gives
: for you and others an oppoturnity to laugh. That's what we need
: in these gloomy days.
... now the final: proper exit with a couple of "wise words" and
giving the opponent the feeling that he has lost this frame.
Now the opponent has no other option than to reply ...
Don't do it Johan!
--
/Kari (male, btw.)
--
About the only worthwhile thing you can learn from a bore is how truly
golden silence can be. -O. A. Battista
Jorma Kypp|
Hiski Haapoja (trh...@uta.fi) wrote:
> J. Kyppö
> and both of them because they cannot distinguish between endless
> propaganda and free speech.
Yes, you are right: J.K. is "The Enemy of the People".
Actualy this opinion of yours explains in a clear and simple
ways some flames and also why some, even by my estimation
normally quite civilazed writes try to find something
to flame no matter how neutral the subject I write about
might be.
You are welcome to discuss about EU without no exaggeration
and extreme words (like "propaganda") in sfnet.keskustelu.eu
or talk.politics.european-union, if you have some real
opinions or views about this subject. Not only "feelings".
Also s.c.n is suitable place if the subject is connected
with nordic countries.
Jorma Kypp|
Johan Olofsson (johan.o...@magnus.ct.se) wrote:
> 14 May 96 15:45, Jorma Kypp| wrote:
> JK> Have you ever thought, that they should also be warned not to get
> JK> involved with you? I can't see principally the big difference? FAQ
> JK> shouldn't be used as a tool against other discussers. If so.... then
> JK> it is no FAQ.
> No, in the FAQ he hints new users at the well established fact, that trying to
> discuss with Jarmo Ryyti has proven to be devastating for the news group, and
> aswell a secure path to unpopularity for the poor newcomer who tries this.
I was a poor renewcomer in last winter, who didn't understand what it
may follow if I oppose Johan Olofsson. Now I know....:-).
> JK> Your opinion about whaling you can express in s.c.n, but not in FAQ.
> JK> Otherwise it is no FAQ.
> Stupidities!
Hmm... fact is, that a cool discussion without hot feelings about faq
don't seem to be possible. I didn't know, that this subject can be
so *tender*. can I smell some smoke....?:)
> Stop trying to change the meanings of words!!!
> Jarmo tries to tell that "immigrant" and "native" have got a new meaning.
> Jyrki tries to tell that "flame" and "abuse" have got a new meaning.
> Elaine tries to tell that "censorship" has got a new meaning.
> Jorma tries to tell that "FAQ" has a new meaning.
Now you might understand, what I told former about me - the poor renewcomer
(means a fellow, who had a pause in s.c.n). You are listing already four!
writers in s.c.n.
Are you going to continue your list? There might still be some writers in
s.c.n, who sometimes may disagree with you.
Do you sometimes feel, that the world is against you?
> Couldn't you spare your private speak for e-mail and try to use conventional
> definitions when writing public articles for recipients who have other native
> languages?
What is wrong with my definition of FAQ? I think, that I've tried to tell
my opinions about faq as honestly, nicely, polite and straight as I can
..... in the private e-mails already. Right?
> It seems as the Jyväskylä-maffia has made a specialty out of new-speak, and as
> Elaine has enrolled.
Hmmm.. true is, that the mafia (I guess, that maffia = mafia) as word has
gone through kind of inflation in Finland as we have already even an
official Radio Mafia here. But still, I'm afraid, that it doesn't
show very civilazed manners to use this kind of language in a pubic
newsgroup, not even in private e-mail. In different cultures there
are people, who might get hurted about this kind of language.
What about adding to FAQ few words about netiquette and the language,
which might help fruitful dialogue.
I'm actually quite surprized, that people who use this kind of flaming
are also responible about FAQ.
> In this particular question the number of supporters of the J-mafia is bigger
> than usual. Keld and Magnus Hurd have joined, at least regarding the main
> question of to warn or not to warn in the introduction of the FAQ. On the other
> side there are still more men, but I'm sure the mafia is more energetic and
> tenacious, and a civil war in s.c.n. could end in any way.
I just can't believe my eyes!!!!:):):)
You indeed seem to continue your list. Ok, now we have already 6 persons
in Big Bad Mafia. Sounds very bad, very bad.
Now we have to be very, very careful, you never know who else might be
in mafia.....
Btw, just to say something useful. Mafia is a society with strong discipline
and common strategy. Sorry to say, but the idea to write about flames in
faqs came only from the stupid mind of Jorma Kyppo, the fellow who never
asks anybody about any strategy. All his articles are born only in his
own mind without any co-operation with anybody. Never.
But I'm admired, that you put so much value on my articles, already
six person team in my brains. Wau!
> I for one will not contribute to a civil war. I will from now on try to avoid
> the subject of pros and cons for warning newcomers in the faq. Nobody could
> have missed my opinion anyway.
You were already thinking about war....?! Let's make a peace for a while.
I don't write about faqs and you don't faq on me. Yes, yes, old joke...
> JK> What is cross-posting? I've been asking very carefully about the rules
> JK> and possible problems from our operator. I don't crosspost.
> Yes you do, and I do now and then. I don't remember your last crossposting, but
> some month ago it was about your black miss Finland, and before that it has
> been with s.c.slovakia and alike lots of times.
1) About the black miss I crossposted yesterday second time, I guess, that
if somebody is nordic and nigerian, there's nothing wrong to tell about
her in these 2 groups. At least I got last time a lot of nice emails
from the readers of both groups.
2) The Czechoslovakian group was connected essentially in the language
discussion, that I started, and that was totally misunderstood because
of Finnish-Swedish language flaming. One guilty one was also Mr. J.O.,
though on both sides there were many uninnocent. I'd a serious idea
for a deep discussion, sorry it failed. But some other time...
> The last month I _think_ I've seen you crossposting to/from alt.politics.ec and
> talk.politics.european-union, haven't I?
They are my groups. Actually I got at first time to s.c.n when somebody
had crossposted an article from s.c.n to a.p.e. As I told, I don't
count (based on words of our operator) 2-3 (even 4) groups as real
cross-posting. Naturally I crosspost in these groups, when I touch
such subjects, that are connected with Scandinavia and EU.
And there are quite many of them, as a matter of fact.
> I get problems staying on my chair if I continue reading your article.
Excellent! Laugh makes always good for a soul and is certainly
better than flaming. Hope, that always this article gives
for you and others an oppoturnity to laugh. That's what we need
in these gloomy days.
Jorma Kyppo
Laukaa
Finland
jo...@jytko.jyu.fi
Jyrki Nuotio
johan.o...@magnus.ct.se,wrote:
<In this particular question the number of supporters of the J-mafia is
bigger
<than usual. Keld and Magnus Hurd have joined, at least regarding the
main
<question of to warn or not to warn in the introduction of the FAQ. On
the other
<side there are still more men, but I'm sure the mafia is more
energetic and
<tenacious, and a civil war in s.c.n. could end in any way.
There is no mafia. Just people who want to treat other people
fair. No matter whether those people belong to the Finnish speaking
minority in Sweden, or Swedish speaking minority in Finland or
X minority in a country Z.
The recent postings in this news group has shown how important it
is to treat all people with respect and let them have their
language. I case Johan (Swedish speaking Swede) does not
accpet this it might be a good idea to talk with Swedish
speakers of Finland. There is absolutely nothing
wrong to let people keep their language.
There is no sense to hate anybody if she/he speaks another language
or want to keep her/his language.
- jyrki
Hiski Haapoja
Sami K J Kukkonen:
>This would be useful for the newcomers, because, as everyone knows,
>Tampere is the center of stalinism in Finland. All students of the
>University of Tampere and in fact all people from Tampere are hard-core
>stalinists.
You obviously don't know Seppo Lehto and Kalervo Kummola. ;-(
Toimi Kankaanniemi graduated from here too...
Johan Olofsson
Hello Kari.
19 May 96 19:00, Kari Yli-Kuha wrote:
KK> [this is my last posting concerning flame faq:s - I promise...
KK> these are just a few ideas that came to mind when reading this post]
If someone instead is interested in news, I can tell that the s.c.n.-faq at
www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scnfaq0.html (and index.html) is about to be updated.
But, as usual at this time of the year, some of us are preparing for exams, and
I do not promise anything about the pace of the work.
Why not take a look now and then?
[ ... ]
KK> ... let's hope Johan keeps his promise, otherwise this verbal
KK> hair-splitting will never cease - boy, this guy is good at twisting
KK> and making new meanings for words ...
Yes, I think I've given enough reasons to switch to more factual topics, but at
the moment we seem to be more interested in this little warfare (against
Antti?), which I do not really like, nor understand and, after all, find more
exaggerated than interesting. I notice Jorma continuing intimating my methods
of debate being comparable with Jarmo's, and I have no problem to let Jorma
keep his opinion.
JK>> As I told, I don't count (based on words of our operator) 2-3
JK>> (even 4) groups as real cross-posting.
There is this newspeak again. Now cross-posting has changed it's meaning from
cross-posting to what, according to our highest authority, until now has been
called velveeting.
:->>>
KK> Now the opponent has no other option than to reply ...
KK> Don't do it Johan!
Oh, please, Kari, ...only a brief one, ...please... ...can't I?
:-))
Jorma Kypp|
[l{h{n yrit{ omia miest{, kaveri on Viitasaarelta, naton
serkkuni pojan naapurista. Ainoa Ahon heppu, joka kesti
ymp{rist|n paineen.....
Free translation (anyway, walk over this, not very important really):
Please don't try to steal ourboy from neighbourhood, Viitasaari,
near Jyvaskyla.
The only minister, who had enough courage to be an individualist
in the former governement.
The Legend was like this: "The whole governement assured, that
they'll support the membership of Finland in EU (in negotiations)
in 1994 ... except this christian guy, who didn't understand
his own good, though he was a minister. The prime minister
of Finland asked him 3 times in direct, online, TV-panel:
"do you support our EU-politics". Minister Kankaanniemi didn't
say no .... but he also didn't say yes. That made our prime
minister very very nervous, actually angry.
But they couldn't kick him out from the governemet, they indeed did
need his voters.
See: this is funny, this is politics...
Perttu Raivio
>>>> Ac dixit "Jorma" == Jorma Kypp|:
Jorma>
Jorma> You are welcome to discuss about EU without no exaggeration
Jorma> and extreme words (like "propaganda") in sfnet.keskustelu.eu
Jorma> or talk.politics.european-union, if you have some real
Jorma> opinions or views about this subject. Not only "feelings".
Of course. But I'm sure you know that a definition of rubbish
is something which ends up in the wrong place. Quite a few
articles by quite a few writers can safely be called
rubbish...
--
Give me Slack, or give me food!
Jorma Kypp|
Kari Yli-Kuha (yli...@sqc.fi) wrote:
> [this is my last posting concerning flame faq's - I promise...
Too bad, that you can't anymore to send your response.
Well, it seems, that you gave me "free hands" now:):)
> jo...@jytko.jyu.fi (Jorma Kypp|) writes:
> : Johan Olofsson (johan.o...@magnus.ct.se) wrote:
> : JK> may follow if I oppose Johan Olofsson. Now I know....:-).
> ... attempted sarcasm ...
> : > JK> Otherwise it is no FAQ.
> : JO> Stupidities!
> ... attempt to heat the other participant,
> ... continued attempt to heat ...
> ... use of nice words like "honest", "nice", "polite" etc. - but still in
> an attempt to heat the "opponent" (but why is Johan an opponent, I wonder?) ...
I wonder too. But a small retrospective observation tells us, that it
was Johan who made the sauna. I did only throw cool water on the stones...:)
> ... attempt to step "above" the opponent by using semantic structures and
> PC language (I wonder whether he's nordic after all, nordic people tend
> to say what they mean, with the proper terms) ... "pubic newsgroup" -
> hmmm. that's what this group actually has become
That was a good one, ten ponts!:)
> : > In this particular question the number of supporters of the J-mafia is bigger
> : > than usual. Keld and Magnus Hurd have joined, at least regarding the main
> : > question of to warn or not to warn in the introduction of the FAQ. On the other
> : > side there are still more men, but I'm sure the mafia is more energetic and
> : > tenacious, and a civil war in s.c.n. could end in any way.
> : I just can't believe my eyes!!!!:):):)
> ... after heating, now he decides to attack ...
> : You indeed seem to continue your list. Ok, now we have already 6 persons
> : in Big Bad Mafia. Sounds very bad, very bad.
> : Now we have to be very, very careful, you never know who else might be
> : in mafia.....
> ... "sounds very bad, very bad" is one of Jarmoisms,
But I did invent it just by myself! You are right, later on I've to go
through all my files just to avoid anything, that could connect me
or my words with JR, Paavo Vayrynen or Ewings family...
> I still wonder why
> he thinks this usenet is some kind of verbal battleground? Isn't that what
> Ruth once complained as well, before leaving this group, wonder where she is? ...
Perhaps she will step down from the heaven on the Third Day...
> : Btw, just to say something useful. Mafia is a society with strong discipline
> : and common strategy. Sorry to say, but the idea to write about flames in
> : faqs came only from the stupid mind of Jorma Kyppo, the fellow who never
> : asks anybody about any strategy. All his articles are born only in his
> : own mind without any co-operation with anybody. Never.
> : But I'm admired, that you put so much value on my articles, already
> : six person team in my brains. Wau!
> ... "admired"? - probably means "flattered" - full of himself, otherwise he
> wouldn't speak of himself in third person ...
Well, I'm flattered because I'm admired...:)
> : > I for one will not contribute to a civil war. I will from now on try to avoid
> : > the subject of pros and cons for warning newcomers in the faq. Nobody could
> : > have missed my opinion anyway.
> : You were already thinking about war....?! Let's make a peace for a while.
> : I don't write about faqs and you don't faq on me. Yes, yes, old joke...
> ... let's hope Johan keeps his promise, otherwise this verbal hair-splitting
> will never cease - boy, this guy is good at twisting and making new
> meanings for words ...
That's not true. For example I did never invent words like "FLAQ" = "flame faq"
or such crazy words like "faqfia" = faq mafia...
> : > The last month I _think_ I've seen you crossposting to/from alt.politics.ec and
> : > talk.politics.european-union, haven't I?
> : They are my groups.
> ... "they are _my groups_",
Alright, you can take your part if you like:)
> act - it really looks plausible - how come he himself learns nothing?
Well, well, well. Who is now "attempting to heat the other participants"?
You naughty boy;)
> : Actually I got at first time to s.c.n when somebody
> : had crossposted an article from s.c.n to a.p.e. As I told, I don't
> .. where's that guy? I'm going to strangle him! ...
Now you will here something really funny (I mentioned about this in
my personal email to Antti, btw). This happened in the end of the
year 1994 or during the spring 1995. And the guy was you!!!
(I try to dig up that old article to make it sure).
> : count (based on words of our operator) 2-3 (even 4) groups as real
> : cross-posting. Naturally I crosspost in these groups, when I touch
> : such subjects, that are connected with Scandinavia and EU.
> : And there are quite many of them, as a matter of fact.
> ... this guy's really trying to raise heated discussions where he can
> feel himself at home ...
This I didn't get now. What is my crime:(
> : > I get problems staying on my chair if I continue reading your article.
> : Excellent! Laugh makes always good for a soul and is certainly
> : better than flaming. Hope, that always this article gives
> : for you and others an oppoturnity to laugh. That's what we need
> : in these gloomy days.
> ... now the final: proper exit with a couple of "wise words" and
> giving the opponent the feeling that he has lost this frame.
> Now the opponent has no other option than to reply ...
> Don't do it Johan!
..."because I", Kari, "did it for you as you asked....."?;)
Jorma Kyppo
Laukaa
Finland
jo...@jytko.jyu.fi
P.S. I'll be on my way for 2 weeks now and come back in June. If you
don't want to see my follow-ups to your articles, then don't
email them to me. In the other case, do it.
Espen Nyborg
jo...@jytko.jyu.fi (Jorma Kypp|) wrote:
>See: this is funny, this is politics...
See: This thread is called "Flame_FAQ?" - do you see me laughing?
Espen
--
_______________________________________________________________________
Espen Nyborg e.ny...@dial.pipex.com or ra...@dial.pipex.com
London http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/e.nyborg/
Johan Olofsson
I wrote:
If someone instead is interested in news, I can tell that the
s.c.n.-faq at www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scnfaq0.html (and index.html)
is about to be updated.
But, as usual at this time of the year, some of us are preparing for
exams, and I do not promise anything about the pace of the work.
Someone, I'm sorry I've forgotten who, questioned the rightmost flag
in the top of the pages. Now I know. The eight flags are for Denmark,
Færøerne, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Greenland, Norwegen, and Åland.
The circular flag is from Greenland. With the help of Kari I'm sure
the Sami flag will be added too, as it already is at Kari's Sami page.
Johan
--
--
e-mail: johan.o...@magnus.ct.se
s-mail: Majeldsvägen 8a, 582 63 LINKÖPING, Sweden
Yrjo Hatakka
In article <4n8ae4$h...@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>,
Jorma Kypp| <jo...@jytko.jyu.fi> wrote:
>Antti A Lahelma (alah...@cc.helsinki.fi) wrote:
>
>> In <4n73em$8...@mordred.cc.jyu.fi> Jorma Kyppo <jo...@jytko.jyu.fi> writes:
>> >yli...@sqc.fi (Kari Yli-Kuha) wrote:
>> >> : Norwegian whaling, or starting an argument with Jarmo Ryyti. :)"
>> >> : So, what to say about this? My personal opinion is, that the text, that
>> >> : warns about flames includes a flame itself!
>> Not a flame but a simple statement of fact. If Serdar Argic were a s.c.n
>> regular I'd mention him too.
>
>Serdar Argic(who he is?) has nothing to do in FAQ if he isn't a political,
>cultural, etc.. person in Nordic countries.
>especially painted in black...
>
Don't you remember him? The regular net.pain.in.the.ass ?
Anytime you mentioned Turkey or Armenia or genocide, you got jarmoid
rambligns and ravings filling any news group and hidering all discussion.
>This is not only a question about the objectivity of FAQs, but
>their authority generally. If this kind of personal opinions become
>common in FAQ, who care about them anymore....
>FAQs drop down on the level of any other newsgroup article and
>if somebody suggests to take at first a look on FAQ, (s)he will
>see only an ironical smile. Or hear some nice laughing..
>
FAQ:s are not written by machine and one must warn others about net.kooks
>> >> : I would be interested to know, who wrote this part of text and like
>> >> Regardless of who wrote that piece of the FAQ I and - I believe - many
>> > ^ yes, who? I can't see anything regard until
>> > (s)he appears on the scene and takes
>> > a responsibility
>> Everything in there is by me unless otherwise stated. It probably says
>> so somewhere, too.
>
>Belive me. You got my points here. I respect honesty.
>
>> >So why not to speak about "hit and run" tactics... *but without names*.
>> >That's the point.
>> *yawn* You don't have a point, you're just hurt and thirsty for revenge
>> because I called all your articles silly...
>
>You write FAQs?
>It must be indeed difficult to be sometime an objective, neutral person
>and in same time so fulfilled by personal feelings and coloured opinions.
How anyone can be sametime objective person AND biased? AL:s opinions about
your articles doesn't show on FAQ. Are you stating the AL should not
maintain FAQ becouse he doesnt like neither your articles or your beloved
net pal JR:s rantings (and complete waste of time)
( Some of the silly scriblings deleted )
>> The names listed are people who've sent major pieces of text, I can't
>> list everyone, it'd get too long. Jarmo copied one paragraph from a
>> Jyvaskyla tourist brochure and sent it to me, of which I'm thankful,
>> of course.
>
>Oh yes, I do understand. There is some kind of point system to get
>your name in the list. How many rows of text you have sent and how
>great deal of that text you have invented by your self (not using ready
>sources). Is it possible now to give the points of all in the list
>and in same give a hint what's the number of points to get from
>the level "I'm thankful of course" up to level "Net gods and goddesses"?
>
So maintaining and collecting scn FAQ doesn't count? There are great deal of
text by AL, just read it. If you want your name to be shown then contribute
and stop whining.
>And once more: nothing personal
> not with JR
> not with AA
>
>This is a principal matter.
>
>Jorma Kyppo
>Laukaa
>Finland
>jo...@jytko.jyu.fi
>
There really is something odd in Jyväskylä.
--
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// hat...@cc.helsinki.fi // I there for claim this happines for //
// // myself. //
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Yrjo Hatakka
In article <4nhvhi$k...@vuokko.uta.fi>, Hiski Haapoja <trh...@uta.fi> wrote:
>
>P.S. Ole Kreiberg probably is the Danish equivalent of J*rmo, but
OK is a sick nazi pervert, and at least that JR is not but
>are there any really nutty Swedes or Norwegians loose on the Net?
Svante Wendel is JR of Sweden
--
.sig destroyed
C Malte Lewan
Basically all newsservers in France are down for the moment (sic!)
as a indirect consequence of that detention of the newsmasters for the
two major newsservers for indirectly distributing unlawful material. So
I'm back at my slooow UNIX-account for a while.
In article <yzzn330ye...@tina.lysator.liu.se>,
Johan Olofsson <j...@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>I wrote:
> If someone instead is interested in news, I can tell that the
> s.c.n.-faq at www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scnfaq0.html (and index.html)
> is about to be updated.
> But, as usual at this time of the year, some of us are preparing for
> exams, and I do not promise anything about the pace of the work.
>
>Someone, I'm sorry I've forgotten who, questioned the rightmost flag
>in the top of the pages. Now I know. The eight flags are for Denmark,
>Færøerne, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Greenland, Norwegen, and Åland.
>The circular flag is from Greenland. With the help of Kari I'm sure
>the Sami flag will be added too, as it already is at Kari's Sami page.
Alright. But in that case I'd like to have the Scanian flag included as
well. I can send one to...who? To you Johan? And I'd like to add the
Jamish (?...Jämtland) flag too (I can write a very short text about
Jämtland if necessary) and the Gutnish (?...Gotland) if I ever
find one.
I've tried to collect some information on cultural regions in Sweden on
http://www.df.lth.se/~cml/swe-cultregions.html
More material is welcome.
Also, my Scanian FAQ has been changed several times and I'd like the
latest version to be included in the version on the Lysator web. If the
keeper has the time to do that. I can send it to whoever. Johan?
Finally, I'm sorry Johan. I _will_ reply to your latest comments on my
Culture in Scania FAQ. I _will_. :-)
--
Malte Lewan Political science, Lund University, Scania, EU
c...@df.lth.se http://www.df.lth.se/~cml/ Finger me for PGP key
SCANIA, skånsk-skåneländsk mailinglista: skicka "subscribe scania"
(utan citationstecken) på en rad, till adressen: majo...@df.lth.se
Johan Olofsson
In article <4o13aq$b...@news.lth.se>
>>Someone, I'm sorry I've forgotten who, questioned the rightmost flag
>>in the top of the pages. Now I know. The eight flags are for Denmark,
>>Færøerne, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Greenland, Norwegen, and Åland.
>>The circular flag is from Greenland. With the help of Kari I'm sure
>>the Sami flag will be added too, as it already is at Kari's Sami page.
>Alright. But in that case I'd like to have the Scanian flag included as
>well. I can send one to...who? To you Johan?
NO.
Remember, I'm from Skåne myself, it's nothing against the separatistic
movements. But the limit has to be drawn somewhere. And I feel it _much_
easier to draw it just before Skåne (where I personally am involved!)
than to exclude for instance the beautiful Sami flag.
>I've tried to collect some information on cultural regions in Sweden on
>http://www.df.lth.se/~cml/swe-cultregions.html
>More material is welcome.
A good collection in my opinion.
>Also, my Scanian FAQ has been changed several times and I'd like the
>latest version to be included in the version on the Lysator web. If the
>keeper has the time to do that. I can send it to whoever. Johan?
Yes. This adress, and it comes right from the beginning.
Currently, the pointer is to your site, but THAT is disliked by the Lysator
people, who fear the lth-server to be less reliable than their own.
Johan
Johan Olofsson
So, now I feel I've spent some time in front of the computer screen at Lysator.
Comments are wished.
regards!
C Malte Lewan
Parts of this posting could have gone by mail, but there is also a
central question present that has to be discussed publicly.
In article <yzzg28r...@tintin.lysator.liu.se>,
Johan Olofsson <j...@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>In article <4o13aq$b...@news.lth.se>
>c...@marvin.df.lth.se (C Malte Lewan) writes:
> >Alright. But in that case I'd like to have the Scanian flag included as
> >well. I can send one to...who? To you Johan?
>
>NO.
A friendly warning: one day, somebody is going to be angry at you for
this uncompromising style of writing. We're writing the FAQ together. No
arbritrary veto rights (well, of course you don't think so). So lower
caps, thank you. :-)
>Remember, I'm from Skåne myself, it's nothing against the separatistic
>movements.
It has to be repeated that there are no separatistic movements in Scania
(at least weren't when I left the country one year ago). There are
possibly individuals but no organisation. There _are_ regionalistic
movements.
And the flag has neither anything to do with any (then non-existing)
separatistic or regional movements. It's as official as the Swedish flag.
It's registered in the Scandinavian Roll of Armor and also for example
used by the official web page of the Scanian regional authority
Skånestyrelsen (http://www.skane.se/). (Even the right proportions are
used there, not the copied Swedish ones.)
Not that I'd see this officialness as necessary for such a widespread
use there actually is of the flag already.
>But the limit has to be drawn somewhere. And I feel it _much_
>easier to draw it just before Skåne (where I personally am involved!)
>than to exclude for instance the beautiful Sami flag.
You can't have one and not the other. _If_ you leave the purely political
territorial criteria (which you do when you include the Sami flag), I
consequently ask for any flag of widespread use of a Nordic regional
culture (with somebody as a proponent) to be included. You surely must
have anticipated this argument.
This is not just a matter of principles but I don't like the point that
is made with a sole Sami flag that the Sami is the only non-national
group that is enough different (for what, I don't know). So: I suggest
either sticking to a strict political-territorial criteria or let me
send you my Scanian and Jamish flags and include these. Simple logic.
> >I've tried to collect some information on cultural regions in Sweden on
> >http://www.df.lth.se/~cml/swe-cultregions.html
>
> >More material is welcome.
>
>A good collection in my opinion.
Thank you. There isn't too much on the net yet, but I think I've got
basically all there is so far. And I've added some material myself as
examples of less known Scanidinavian languages/dialects.
In another posting Johan writes::
>I'm thinking about taking the www-list away from the faq.
It's alright with me. (If, later, others don't agree, will you, Johan,
include the link above in the list?) And since I presume (and hope!) the
info about the mailing lists still will be listed, can you now include
the one I have? All info is on
http://www.df.lth.se/~cml/scania/scania-list.html
(Do you like me to write it in English send it to you?)
Info about the Östgöte mailing list can be found at
ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/guskelov/
I'd like to see it included too if somebody has the time to do that.
> >Also, my Scanian FAQ has been changed several times and I'd like the
> >latest version to be included in the version on the Lysator web. If the
> >keeper has the time to do that. I can send it to whoever. Johan?
>
>Yes. This adress, and it comes right from the beginning.
>
>Currently, the pointer is to your site, but THAT is disliked by the Lysator
>people, who fear the lth-server to be less reliable than their own.
I think the DF computer has been quite reliable lately but depending on
the Lysator site, it's very much possible (the DF computer has had lots
of problems at least in the past). But what do they care? If one of the
their links is down, it doesn't take any more computing resources than if
it's working...
But like I've told Antti, since you already know about my web site, now
you can get my FAQ from my website for inclusion. Well, I can send it
to you too if you prefer that. It's the same thing. Your command is my
wish. :)
/kind regards
Jarmo Ryyti
Johan Olofsson (j...@lysator.liu.se) wrote:
: In article <4o13aq$b...@news.lth.se>
: c...@marvin.df.lth.se (C Malte Lewan) writes:
: >>Someone, I'm sorry I've forgotten who, questioned the rightmost flag
: >>in the top of the pages. Now I know. The eight flags are for Denmark,
: >>Færøerne, Iceland, Sweden, Finland, Greenland, Norwegen, and Åland.
: >>The circular flag is from Greenland. With the help of Kari I'm sure
: >>the Sami flag will be added too, as it already is at Kari's Sami page.
: >Alright. But in that case I'd like to have the Scanian flag included as
: >well. I can send one to...who? To you Johan?
: NO.
A bit off from the core of the topic...
But could it be possible to use in stead of English names for
the aforementioned states their own names:
Sverige instead of Sweden
Noreg (?) instead of Norway
Suomi instead of Finland
? instead of Greenland ( I have forgotten the original name)
Island instead of Iceland
IMHO one who is interested in the Nordic culture can as a starter
learn the local names of the states.
It cannot be too much even for an Anglophone or Francophone.
regards,
jami
--
#In 1958,The Swedish School Administration repealed directives banning#
# the speaking of Finnish language in Sweden's schools.However,some #
# municipalities maintained restrictions until 1968 #
Johan Olofsson
Malte!
I thank you for your comments.
It's nice to see this group againg discussing contemporary Nordic culture.
(I don't see the J-discussions as typical for Nordeners :-/ )
In article <4o4b4f$8...@news.lth.se>
c...@marvin.df.lth.se (C Malte Lewan) writes:
> > >Alright. But in that case I'd like to have the Scanian flag included as
> > >well. I can send one to...who? To you Johan?
> >
> >NO.
> A friendly warning: one day, somebody is going to be angry at you for
> this uncompromising style of writing. We're writing the FAQ together. No
> arbritrary veto rights (well, of course you don't think so). So lower
> caps, thank you. :-)
An answer: (neither particularly friendly or unfriendly or anything)
You can not send a flag to me, and expect it to become included in the gif.
I'm not capable of such magics.
Secondly, what I wrote about drawing a line somewhere is the principial
matter, which is worth considering. I think we have done it some times
already, but it's a sensitive matter so I don't mind at all. :-)))
> >Remember, I'm from Skåne myself, it's nothing against the separatistic
> >movements.
> It has to be repeated that there are no separatistic movements in Scania
> (at least weren't when I left the country one year ago). There are
> possibly individuals but no organisation. There _are_ regionalistic
> movements.
Let's start with basics: There is a wish to be free from Sweden, precisely as
in Jämtland, BUT the people who _really_ support such ideas are quite few.
Today I by snail mail received a mail from Peter Broberg in Landskrona
(the family name is maybe vaguely familiar to me, aren't there architects
with such names). Anyhow, he proposed in the best Jarmoid style that Sweden
was not to be used as a term when the appropriate term would be Svealand
or Svealand & Götaland. According to him, it's important to state the
colonialist aims of the Svears, for instance in the "crusades" to Finland,
and of course in the founding of a university in Lund; and it's likewise
important to de-swedify the historywriting of the Danes, by for instance
suppressing the fact that the kings and queens of the Kalmar-union all
were Danish, and that the schools in Åhus (Århus?) and Lund were founded
before the Uppsala university.
Further, he (not without some right) criticize the conventional version of
the annexion of Gotland, which maybe was not rightfully agreed on in the
peace treaty of Brömsebro; and the suppression of the terror the Swedish
troops made to the Scanians; and the suppression of the fact that Scania
(including at least Blekinge and Halland) was incorporated in the Swedish
realm against the peace treaty in Roskilde (hmm..., I'm not sure about this).
He finnish the letter (which is a snail-mail reply regarding the revised
version of the faq part over the Swedish history - the first snail-mail
reply I've got on a Usenet post ever! :->>) ... he ends his letter with
the statement that the Öresund bridge now again will make Scania a part
of Denmark. Stiftelsen Skånsk Framtid http://www.josnet.se/users/gha/ssf/
does at least for an untrained man as me seem pretty much separatist.
> And the flag has neither anything to do with any (then non-existing)
> separatistic or regional movements. It's as official as the Swedish flag.
> It's registered in the Scandinavian Roll of Armor and also for example
> used by the official web page of the Scanian regional authority
> Skånestyrelsen (http://www.skane.se/). (Even the right proportions are
> used there, not the copied Swedish ones.)
> Not that I'd see this officialness as necessary for such a widespread
> use there actually is of the flag already.
I think it's official enough.
The question is: what purpose should the pure mentioning of different
groups with wishes to be seen as indepent entities from the centralistic
(a.k.a. colonialistic or nationalistic) states of Denmark, Sweden and Finland?
> >But the limit has to be drawn somewhere. And I feel it _much_
> >easier to draw it just before Skåne (where I personally am involved!)
> >than to exclude for instance the beautiful Sami flag.
> You can't have one and not the other. _If_ you leave the purely political
> territorial criteria (which you do when you include the Sami flag), I
> consequently ask for any flag of widespread use of a Nordic regional
> culture (with somebody as a proponent) to be included. You surely must
> have anticipated this argument.
The Sapmi-question is not _quite_ equal to Gotland, Skåneland or Jämtland.
The Sami clans have been pushed out of their land by Swedish citizens and
authorities, and their culture have been suppressed, in a way which isn't
comparable with the fate of the Scanians.
> This is not just a matter of principles but I don't like the point that
> is made with a sole Sami flag that the Sami is the only non-national
> group that is enough different (for what, I don't know). So: I suggest
> either sticking to a strict political-territorial criteria or let me
> send you my Scanian and Jamish flags and include these. Simple logic.
They ARE definitely a _national_ group. Isn't it YOU who have studied quite
a lot political science. I suppose you can explain which definition of
"nation" you prefere (and why) and then demonstrate how the Sapmi do not
fit.
> All info is on
> http://www.df.lth.se/~cml/scania/scania-list.html
> (Do you like me to write it in English send it to you?)
Yes, please!
(my time is surely as limited as yours :-| I shouldn't sit here now! )
> Info about the Östgöte mailing list can be found at
> ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/guskelov/
> I'd like to see it included too if somebody has the time to do that.
...I'm surpriced that's not already done - remembering Lars Aronsson being
the initiatior, or anything like that. :-)))
> > >Also, my Scanian FAQ has been changed several times and I'd like the
> > >latest version to be included in the version on the Lysator web. If the
> > >keeper has the time to do that. I can send it to whoever. Johan?
> >
> >Yes. This adress, and it comes right from the beginning.
> >
> >Currently, the pointer is to your site, but THAT is disliked by the Lysator
> >people, who fear the lth-server to be less reliable than their own.
> I think the DF computer has been quite reliable lately but depending on
> the Lysator site, it's very much possible (the DF computer has had lots
> of problems at least in the past). But what do they care? If one of the
> their links is down, it doesn't take any more computing resources than if
> it's working...
I don't know too much about this - but I suppose it was not 100% serious.
But maybe not 100% a joke either.
> But like I've told Antti, since you already know about my web site, now
> you can get my FAQ from my website for inclusion. Well, I can send it
> to you too if you prefer that. It's the same thing. Your command is my
> wish. :)
The important difference is that if _you_ send it by mail, then I know
it's updated - and you know you have sent it. You see?
vänliga hälsningar!
S.W.
Den 22 May 1996 13:26:19 +0300 skrev hat...@cc.helsinki.fi (Yrjo Hatakka)
:
=>In article <4nhvhi$k...@vuokko.uta.fi>, Hiski Haapoja <trh...@uta.fi> wrote:
=>>
=>>P.S. Ole Kreiberg probably is the Danish equivalent of J*rmo, but
=>
=>OK is a sick nazi pervert, and at least that JR is not but
=>
=>>are there any really nutty Swedes or Norwegians loose on the Net?
=>
=>Svante Wendel is JR of Sweden
Aw, c'mon, you can't be serious.....
--
S.Wendel
m-6...@mailbox.swip.net
Kari Yli-Kuha
j...@lysator.liu.se (Johan Olofsson) writes:
: c...@marvin.df.lth.se (C Malte Lewan) writes:
: > j...@lysator.liu.se (Johan Olofsson) writes:
JMO: But the limit has to be drawn somewhere. And I feel it _much_
JMO: easier to draw it just before Skåne (where I personally am involved!)
JMO: than to exclude for instance the beautiful Sami flag.
MALTE: You can't have one and not the other. _If_ you leave the purely political
MALTE: territorial criteria (which you do when you include the Sami flag), I
MALTE: consequently ask for any flag of widespread use of a Nordic regional
MALTE: culture (with somebody as a proponent) to be included. You surely must
MALTE: have anticipated this argument.
JMO: The Sapmi-question is not _quite_ equal to Gotland, Skåneland or Jämtland.
JMO:
JMO: The Sami clans have been pushed out of their land by Swedish citizens and
JMO: authorities, and their culture have been suppressed, in a way which isn't
JMO: comparable with the fate of the Scanians.
MALTE: This is not just a matter of principles but I don't like the point that
MALTE: is made with a sole Sami flag that the Sami is the only non-national
MALTE: group that is enough different (for what, I don't know). So: I suggest
MALTE: either sticking to a strict political-territorial criteria or let me
MALTE: send you my Scanian and Jamish flags and include these. Simple logic.
:
JMO: They ARE definitely a _national_ group. Isn't it YOU who have studied quite
JMO: a lot political science. I suppose you can explain which definition of
JMO: "nation" you prefere (and why) and then demonstrate how the Sapmi do not
JMO: fit.
[...]
I'm sorry to intervene but I think Johan is right. There _is_ a subtle
difference between Scania and Sápmi, for various reasons:
First, the Sami are a national minority in four countries with a
distinct culture and language, and has been such for centuries.
Secondly: although the Sápmi isn't a "national state" or "autonomic
area" in the sense e.g. Greenland is, the Sami do have special laws
and rights in all Nordic counties which are applied in the Sápmi area.
Third: the the Nordic Sami Council has been recognized as a legitimate
representative of the Sami people by the Nordic Council and, although
cannot participate in the decision making, is represented in the
council.
Now, I know some people (Malte?) may disagree with me mostly because
of subjective views. The question is where to draw the line about this
flag issue. I don't know all the details about Scanian affairs but me
it's more like proposing a Karelian flag to be in the FAQ :-\
But, your mileage may vary...
--
/Kari (male, btw.)
--
The only thing one can do with good advice is to pass it on. It is never
of any use to oneself. -Oscar Wilde
Henrik Ernoe
c...@marvin.df.lth.se (C Malte Lewan) wrote:
>Parts of this posting could have gone by mail, but there is also a
>central question present that has to be discussed publicly.
>
>In article <yzzg28r...@tintin.lysator.liu.se>,
>Johan Olofsson <j...@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
>>In article <4o13aq$b...@news.lth.se>
>>c...@marvin.df.lth.se (C Malte Lewan) writes:
>> >Alright. But in that case I'd like to have the Scanian flag included as
>> >well. I can send one to...who? To you Johan?
>>
>>NO.
>
>A friendly warning: one day, somebody is going to be angry at you for
>this uncompromising style of writing. We're writing the FAQ together. No
>arbritrary veto rights (well, of course you don't think so). So lower
>caps, thank you. :-)
>
>>movements.
>
>It has to be repeated that there are no separatistic movements in Scania
>(at least weren't when I left the country one year ago). There are
>possibly individuals but no organisation. There _are_ regionalistic
>movements.
>
>And the flag has neither anything to do with any (then non-existing)
>separatistic or regional movements. It's as official as the Swedish flag.
>It's registered in the Scandinavian Roll of Armor and also for example
>used by the official web page of the Scanian regional authority
>used there, not the copied Swedish ones.)
>
>Not that I'd see this officialness as necessary for such a widespread
>use there actually is of the flag already.
I must admit that this FAQ biznez is beginning to get on my nerves:
Malte, if you want to include the Scanian flags, then I think
there is just as many good reasons for including the various
flags of Danish region like Bornholm and Vendsyssel. The point
is how many bloody flags is it realistic to include: 10, 20,
or 100?
I think that it is, for purely pragmatic reasons, neccessary
to limit those flags included to those that are symbols of the
nordic *nations*, that is those that are recognised as such by
having representatives in the Nordic Council.
The day that Skaane, or Vendsyssel, or Gotland, or Lofoten
gets that status then they should included not before.
And as a general remark I have noticed that the FAQ discussion is turning into a talmudic talkshop, where every Per and Povl wants
to have their little pet versions of Nordic historic, geography, politics, regional characteristics and so on and so on included
at length in the FAQ. Now, I am conviced that all the participating gentlemen have the purest of motives for having their pet projec=
t included in the FAQ. But including someones pet view in the FAQ
will not give the view any kind of offialdom or make it more
accepted.
All the gentlemen participating in the FAQ debate should also
think of the consequences: the result of this will be, if this
process continues and it will, that the FAQ become enormous,
unreadable and therefore totally worthless for the people for
which it is supposedly made; those that know little or nothing
about Nordic issues and wants a sources of brief information on FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS.
I am sure that if someone wants information on lets say the
arcanae of the "Frit Vendsyssel" movement, then they can post
a request on it on scn, and competent people here will undoubtly
be willing to provide lengthy articles on the subject.
Therefore I would ask all of you to show a bit of restraint and moderation with regard to the SCN-FAQ.
(I have read Johans version of the Swedish history, and no
surprise, found a number of things, that I, given my national background, disagreed on. However, to keep the FAQ resonably
useable, I have chosen to abstain from asking Johan to do
lengthy corrections.)
I suggest that people try to keep their heads cool with regard
to the FAQ. And remember, if someone wants to post their
particular views on any aspect of Nordic culture, they will
get a bigger audience and bigger discussions if they
post it as a contribution than if they force it into a FAQ
that has become practically unreadable.
best regards henrik ernoe
Henrik Ernoe
ry...@tukki.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) wrote:
>
>
>But could it be possible to use in stead of English names for
>the aforementioned states their own names:
>
>Sverige instead of Sweden
>Noreg (?) instead of Norway
>Suomi instead of Finland
> ? instead of Greenland ( I have forgotten the original name)
The original name would be old Norse for Grönland.
The present name is in Inuit: Kalaallit Nunaat (Land of the
People/(humans))
(The present name is in Danish: Grönland)
>IMHO one who is interested in the Nordic culture can as a starter
>learn the local names of the states.
>
>It cannot be too much even for an Anglophone or Francophone.
Alas, it is. The number of French people that would have any
idea what Suomi is, is very, very small indeed, and much smaller
than those that have heard of la Finlande. (This not french-bashing:
the same is true for the anglophones)
It is daft to make things more difficult that absolutely
neccessary for those few non-nordics that take an interests
in Nordic matters. One could of course included the native
names, but don`t remove the English ones.
Johan Olofsson
In article <4o6tik$q...@nef.ens.fr>
Henrik Ernoe <er...@wotan.ens.fr> writes:
(I have read Johans version of the Swedish history, and no
surprise, found a number of things, that I, given my national background,
disagreed on. However, to keep the FAQ resonably
useable, I have chosen to abstain from asking Johan to do
lengthy corrections.)
Well, why not try to present at least some of the most important?
I suggest that people try to keep their heads cool with regard
to the FAQ. And remember, if someone wants to post their
particular views on any aspect of Nordic culture, they will
get a bigger audience and bigger discussions if they
post it as a contribution than if they force it into a FAQ
that has become practically unreadable.
I agree in this, and am thinking of how and what to do.
I think the www-concept is more usable, since more specified articles can be
linked to, while the article which link to them thereby must be more concice.
kind regards
Kari Yli-Kuha
[...]
: All the gentlemen participating in the FAQ debate should also
: process continues and it will, that the FAQ become enormous,
: unreadable and therefore totally worthless for the people for
: which it is supposedly made; those that know little or nothing
: about Nordic issues and wants a sources of brief information
: on FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS.
[...]
: I suggest that people try to keep their heads cool with regard
: to the FAQ. And remember, if someone wants to post their
: particular views on any aspect of Nordic culture, they will
: get a bigger audience and bigger discussions if they
: post it as a contribution than if they force it into a FAQ
: that has become practically unreadable.
... which prompted an idea...
The FAQ is BIG but most of it consists of historical data and dates
of each country - i.e. material which doesn't, IMO, belong to the
category "frequently asked questions" but, rather, "encyclopedia
of nordic countries". This text itself is well written and is
a concentrated and well thought-out history of each country -
I've learned much more about nordic history reading the FAQ than
ever during the boring history lessons back at school.
Because of the size of the FAQ it's not feasible to distribute the
FAQ itself, or even read it in text format. The main FAQ is and
should be read in its entirety in HTML format using a web browser,
and currently it can be done at http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/
I do realize that not nearly everybody has that option available, and
for them downloading the document in text format is the only option,
but it's possible to read tre FAQ that way, too.
Now, let's see the content of the current FAQ:
Part 1: Introduction
Part 2: Miscellaneous Topics
Part 3: Denmark
Part 4: Finland
Part 5: Iceland
Part 6: Norway
Part 7: Sweden
Part 8: The Nordic graphemes FAQ
Part 9: Related texts (excerpts from the news group)
Appendix:
E-mail addresses (mailing lists, etc)
Regular mail addresses (tourist information, embassies, etc)
gopher
MUD
Perhaps the "mini-FAQ" which is supposed to be posted at regular
intervals could concentrate on issues that really are "frequently
asked questions". Chapters 1 (introduction to the group) is clearly
a FAQ-stuff as it introduces a newcomer to the group - this currently
includes the "italian male bear seeks nordic female bear in Stockholm"
:-) kind of stuff.
Perhaps chapter 9, which currently contains "related texts" such as:
Linguistic minorities in Sweden, FAQ
Differences between the Scandinavian languages
A comparision between Finnish and Germanic languages
Selma Lagerlöf and Valborg Ohlander
a Nordic race?
Kristian X and the yellow star
could in the future concentrate on HOT subjects like the above,
and perhaps even whaling and Viking communication,
and would consist of more or less unedited articles covering
the topics. The name of the chapter could be changed to
"frequently asked questions" or something like that...
So, these chapters 1 & 9 would be in the mini-FAQ which would
be distributed at regular intervals.
Just an idea...
: best regards henrik ernoe
--
/Kari (male, btw.)
--
Bachelors should be heavily taxed. It is not fair that some men should be
happier than others. -Oscar Wilde
Henrik Ernoe
j...@lysator.liu.se (Johan Olofsson) wrote:
>In article <4o6tik$q...@nef.ens.fr>
>Henrik Ernoe <er...@wotan.ens.fr> writes:
>
> surprise, found a number of things, that I, given my national background,
> disagreed on. However, to keep the FAQ resonably
> useable, I have chosen to abstain from asking Johan to do
> lengthy corrections.)
>
Because I don`t want to start an avalanche of correcting and counter-correcting. Your version of Swedish history gives an
brief factual covering of Swedish history which reflects that
it is written by a Swede. This is natural and anybody who
reads the FAQ will know that there are a large numbers of old
skeletons in the Nordic cupboards, and lots of old bones to pick
between the Nordic peoples. The reader will therefore know that
some information should be taken with a grain of salt and a dose
of sound natural sceptisism.
(The the old swedish/ danish bones are very intersting to pick,
but the FAQ is not the place to do this.)
As it is I have no large problems with little ommisions regarding
the Skaane wars, Gotland, the Swedification of the Danish
population in Skaane, etc in the Swedish part of the FAQ.
But my main reason for not starting the discussion is it clear
from the nature of these discussions, that it is and remains
impossible to create a scn-correct FAQ which will satify the
whole garrulous SCN community. Therefore I prefer to leave the
FAQ as you wrote it.
PS I am unable to provide you with more precise critisism, since
your original article expired and my server don`t provide access
to the new site. If you absolutely want me to send you my points of
critique, you can email it to me, and I take a look at it again.
It is totally up to you. I, as I have said, do not really see it
as a life-or-death-for-SCN-and-historical-truth problem.
Henrik.
Jorma Kypp|
Yrjo Hatakka (hat...@cc.helsinki.fi) wrote:
> Jorma Kypp| <jo...@jytko.jyu.fi> wrote:
> >And once more: nothing personal
> > not with JR
> > not with AA
> >This is a principal matter.
> >Jorma Kyppo
> >Laukaa
> >Finland
> >jo...@jytko.jyu.fi
> There really is something odd in Jyväskylä.
I didn't quite get you now. I'm actually from
Laukaa and AA is neither from Jyvaskyla.
Cheers,
Jorma Kyppo
Memphis
Tennessee
Johan Olofsson
In article <4o7ead$4...@nef.ens.fr>
Henrik Ernoe <er...@wotan.ens.fr> writes:
>>Well, why not try to present at least some of the most important?
HE>Because I don`t want to start an avalanche of correcting and
HE>counter-correcting. Your version of Swedish history gives an
HE>brief factual covering of Swedish history which reflects that
HE>it is written by a Swede. This is natural and anybody who
HE>reads the FAQ will know that there are a large numbers of old
HE>skeletons in the Nordic cupboards, and lots of old bones to pick
HE>between the Nordic peoples. The reader will therefore know that
HE>some information should be taken with a grain of salt and a dose
HE>of sound natural sceptisism.
Yes, this is very true. What I however find important is that you don't
suppress real corrections.
The fact that memory is _selective_ and that we Scanians have been taught
the Swedish version of history, which of course differs from other versions
is not at all new for me. If you like to try to fight over things as
whether to call one of your kings Kristian Tyrann or Kristia den gode,
then you will have to fight with Svante, and not with me. I don't understand
SUCH disputes.
I've found it interesting, for instance, to learn the Norwegian version
of the history about the Swedish-Norwegian union, and to compare what
a Dane and a Swede prioritize in a short chronicle, as those we are
speaking about, that's interesting in the same way.
HE>(The the old swedish/ danish bones are very intersting to pick,
HE>but the FAQ is not the place to do this.)
No, not in case they doesn't show up repeatedly due to other reasons.
HE>But my main reason for not starting the discussion is it clear
HE>from the nature of these discussions, that it is and remains
HE>impossible to create a scn-correct FAQ which will satify the
HE>whole garrulous SCN community. Therefore I prefer to leave the
HE>FAQ as you wrote it.
Well, the revision I made was aimed at taking away the impression that
the only thing we find important in our history is the wars in the 17:th
century. Your statement above give me the fear that I really am as
terrible to try to communicate with, as Jorma have proposed.
I'm sorry if that's the case, but it's always important to learn.
HE>PS I am unable to provide you with more precise critisism, since
HE>your original article expired and my server don`t provide access
HE>to the new site. If you absolutely want me to send you my points of
HE>critique, you can email it to me, and I take a look at it again.
No, it's not that important. But I have (.some.) respect for your knowledge.
I'll try to read your ww2-articles en suite.
Do you have access to www?
Try at http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scnfaq73.html
kind regards!
C Malte Lewan
In article <4o6tik$q...@nef.ens.fr>, Henrik Ernoe <er...@wotan.ens.fr> wrote:
>I must admit that this FAQ biznez is beginning to get on my nerves:
Since the only thing that really has got on my nerves so far is this
posting, I think I'll try to end here. I'll exchange mails about
technical metters with Johan.
>Malte, if you want to include the Scanian flags, then I think
>there is just as many good reasons for including the various
>flags of Danish region like Bornholm and Vendsyssel. The point
>is how many bloody flags is it realistic to include: 10, 20,
>or 100?
Whether the flags are bloody or not: I don't see anybody asking for 100
flags to be included. I'm asking for an additional two, _if_ we already
include one. I'm still waiting for somebody else to ask for a fourth.
Maybe that will happen. Maybe not.
>I think that it is, for purely pragmatic reasons, neccessary
>to limit those flags included to those that are symbols of the
>nordic *nations*, that is those that are recognised as such by
>having representatives in the Nordic Council.
And nations are so easily defined? Scania is a member as a nation
of UNPO, Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization. And where are
the Kvens and Tornedalingar in the Nordic Council? Are they really
represented by the Finnish government? I don't like the one-sided
definitions that say you're in or out. I say, leave it out of the FAQ
or open up for whoever reasonable to show a flag.
>And as a general remark
Well, I still take parts of this as a point against me since you
didn't choose to post it in a new article.
>I have noticed that the FAQ discussion is turning into a talmudic talkshop, where every Per and Povl wants
>to have their little pet versions of Nordic historic, geography, politics, regional characteristics and so on and so on included
>at length in the FAQ. Now, I am conviced that all the participating gentlemen have the purest of motives for having their pet projec=
>t included in the FAQ. But including someones pet view in the FAQ
>will not give the view any kind of offialdom or make it more
>accepted.
So what is my pet project? The choice I suggest between a) having all
(2, 3...) regional flags of reasonable outside fame included and
b) having only flags of political autonomous territories?
>All the gentlemen participating in the FAQ debate should also
>think of the consequences: the result of this will be, if this
>process continues and it will, that the FAQ become enormous,
>unreadable and therefore totally worthless for the people for
>which it is supposedly made; those that know little or nothing
>about Nordic issues and wants a sources of brief information on FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS.
It's interesting to see somebody who isn't writing the FAQ (at
least not the version I have) tells us who write it how to write it
(or rather how to avoid to write big parts of it). I don't mind an
_additional_ mini-FAQ that would really be a "FAQ", but the word FAQ
is seldom used as what it word-by-word says it should be.
>I am sure that if someone wants information on lets say the
>arcanae of the "Frit Vendsyssel" movement, then they can post
>a request on it on scn, and competent people here will undoubtly
>be willing to provide lengthy articles on the subject.
>
>Therefore I would ask all of you to show a bit of restraint and moderation with regard to the SCN-FAQ.
>
>(I have read Johans version of the Swedish history, and no
>surprise, found a number of things, that I, given my national background, disagreed on. However, to keep the FAQ resonably
>useable, I have chosen to abstain from asking Johan to do
>lengthy corrections.)
I see no advantage with this behavior of yours. If something is wrong
in the FAQ (or if it mirrors a weird perspective), you're welcome to go
ahead and help fix it. That's how newsgroups normally deal with FAQs.
And this was the last time I argue the point about flags in the FAQ...
Vive l'Europe des Régions Vivu la Euxropo de la regionoj
Lang leve het Europa der Regio's Long live Europe of the Regions