Swedish arrogance
Olli-Jukka Paloneva Tkkk
arrogance means. Today, when I got an email address (UTV_9...@debet.nhh.no)
nad looked, if there were something new in soc.culture.nordic, I saw brilliant
discussion about Finns in the internet.
What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the Germans
tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
Japanese would like to be?
Has Swedes still reason to be so arrogant? I have seen that in there are normal
people too in the Nordic family like the Norwegians. Could anybody answer, why
Swedish arrogance still exists? JAS-39 may fail and Volvo had to be sold. Is it
time to admit the loss of Poltava (1709) and realize that Sweden is rather
another European periphery than a pocket Super-Power Of The Nordic?
Elvis may live, Keynes may become to earth 2nd time, but Gustav Wasa and Gustav
II Adolf had been dead for centuries.
I still listen ABBA and eat Marabou, if it is sold at low prices, but how I
could become enlightened in the matter of Swedish arrogance.
Olli-Jukka Paloneva
flaming & grilling -> utv_9...@debet.nhh.no
Christian Bartholdsson
>What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the Germans
>tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
>Japanese would like to be?
[...]
>people too in the Nordic family like the Norwegians. Could anybody answer, why
>Swedish arrogance still exists? JAS-39 may fail and Volvo had to be sold. Is it
>time to admit the loss of Poltava (1709) and realize that Sweden is rather
>another European periphery than a pocket Super-Power Of The Nordic?
If I would make the same generalisations about people as you do I would say
that, judging by your comment, all Finns are sad humourless people who don't
have better things to do than trying to start flame wars on the Internet.
Ahrvid Engholm
>Having been in Norway for three weeks now, I had almost forgotten, what Swedish
>arrogance means. Today, when I got an email address (UTV_9...@debet.nhh.no)
>nad looked, if there were something new in soc.culture.nordic, I saw brilliant
>discussion about Finns in the internet.
>What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the Germans
>tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
>Japanese would like to be?
>Has Swedes still reason to be so arrogant?
from our smaller neighbouring countries speak. And there you have the
explaination: inferiority complex. A smaller neighbour feels inferior to
a neighbour that is approx. twice as big (in population) and think that
this neighbour must be arrogant. "It is not my own fault that I feel
inferior - it must be his fault! He, then, must be arrogant."
Strangely enough when *other* people talk about Swedes totally different
descriptions emerge. Things like "shy", "introvert", "proud of themselves
but afraid to show it", etc. These words seem totally incompatible with
arrogance - and they are from people that have no need for an inferiority
complex towards Sweden.
What you say, I think, says more about you than us.
Kimmo Saarinen
>OPAL...@FINABO.ABO.FI (Olli-Jukka Paloneva Tkkk) writes:
>
>>... a pocket Super-Power Of The Nordic?
>
>If I would make the same generalisations about people as you do I would say
>that, judging by your comment, all Finns are sad humourless people who don't
>have better things to do than trying to start flame wars on the Internet.
But, don't you see, we are the Nordic family, News are our home and
flaming is an axe in this forum.
See the pattern ?
"Married without any children" - almost Al Bundy
k@ (pissing cat, back again)
--
========================================================================
Kimmo Saarinen ! e-mail ki...@cortex.sai.vtt.FI
Technical Research Centre of Finland ! ... here ... and there ...
Medical Engineering Laboratory ! ... usually nowhere ...
Bertil Jonell
>But, don't you see, we are the Nordic family, News are our home and
>flaming is an axe in this forum.
>"Married without any children" - almost Al Bundy
Since you're talking about axes you must be talking about Ted Bundy and
not Al Bundy:)
>Kimmo Saarinen ! e-mail ki...@cortex.sai.vtt.FI
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
Fredrik Bennison
>What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the Germans
>tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
>Japanese would like to be?
>Has Swedes still reason to be so arrogant? I have seen that in there are normal
>people too in the Nordic family like the Norwegians. Could anybody answer, why
I think that what you call arrogance come from the fact that Sweden is larger
than all other Nordic countries, both in size and population. Perhaps you feel
inferiour, and think that we act superiour??
// Fredrik
--
*-------------------*-----------------------*-------------------------*
* d92...@t.hfb.se * Fredrik Bennison * Amiga 500 - 68000-power *
*-------------------*-----------------------*-------------------------*
* FidoNet 2:205/306.4 - Rose Bay, an Australian point in Sweden... *
Henrik Jonsson
>What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the Germans
>tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
>Japanese would like to be?
C2-H5-OH ?
>time to admit the loss of Poltava (1709) and realize that Sweden is rather
Have you ever talked to a Swede how think that 'we' WON at Poltava??
Yes, yes, yes we got our butts kicked. Russians 5 - Swedes 0
But compared with other 'great' nations in history we Swedes really
haven't got anything to feel ashamed about.
We've done bad stuff and we've done good, but the average ends on the
positive scale.
>another European periphery than a pocket Super-Power Of The Nordic?
But when one listens to fellas like this one get depressed. But I will not
take up this lead of discussion since the man who started it, flames Swedes
just for being alive.
>Elvis may live, Keynes may become to earth 2nd time, but Gustav Wasa and Gustav
>II Adolf had been dead for centuries.
Really, I didn't even know that they were sick...
>I still listen ABBA and eat Marabou, if it is sold at low prices, but how I
~~~~~~
That explains it. The man is absolutely insane :)
*wave*
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
d1...@dtek.chalmers.se | The thoughts expressed here are not my own |
| but the thoughts of Hrli The Great, Emperor|
'Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever!'| of the Nghurthg Empire, 20 MParsecs away...|
Tommi Turkia
>Having been in Norway for three weeks now, I had almost forgotten, what Swedish
>arrogance means. Today, when I got an email address (UTV_9...@debet.nhh.no)
>nad looked, if there were something new in soc.culture.nordic, I saw brilliant
>discussion about Finns in the internet.
Would you care to offer us examples of this "Swedish arrogance"
in soc.culture.nordic?
If you fail to do so I will have to conclude that the real
problem with soc.culture.nordic is not Swedish arrogance but
Finnish stupidity (as usual).
--
Tommi Turkia - "Is it really leprechauns and have they
dep't of translation studies - come back to rock'n'roll?"
University of Tampere, Finland - - Jonathan Richman
PALONEVA, OLLI-JUKKA
> In <1993Sep13....@abo.fi> OPAL...@FINABO.ABO.FI (Olli-Jukka Paloneva Tkkk) writes:
>
(omaa kakkaa ja Tommin kompostia talikolla heitetty pois muutama rivi)
>
> Would you care to offer us examples of this "Swedish arrogance"
> in soc.culture.nordic?
I already referred to Bertil s and Tor s immortal text about
Finns on the net, which was meant as a friendly answer to
a Finnish American (a half Finn).
>
> If you fail to do so I will have to conclude that the real
> problem with soc.culture.nordic is not Swedish arrogance but
> Finnish stupidity (as usual).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> --
> Tommi Turkia - "Is it really leprechauns and have they
> dep't of translation studies - come back to rock'n'roll?"
> University of Tampere, Finland - - Jonathan Richman
^^^^^^^
Do you consider yourself a super euro human or a living example of the above
mentioned phenomenon? A Swede would not have make a that kind of statement in
public!
Olli-Jukka Paloneva - utv_9...@debet.nhh.no
PS. Could anybody kindly pass my best wishes to Pia von Essen, who studies the
same place as Tommi, please? I can not remember her email address.
knut.duste.fjert
printed ??
Swedish war heros (WW2)
Goran Svensson
>In <trtotu.7...@uta.fi> trt...@uta.fi writes:
>> In <1993Sep13....@abo.fi> OPAL...@FINABO.ABO.FI (Olli-Jukka Paloneva Tkkk) writes:
^^^^
What does Tkkk mean? Turkku Ku Klux Klan?
>> Would you care to offer us examples of this "Swedish arrogance"
>> in soc.culture.nordic?
> I already referred to Bertil s and Tor s immortal text about
> Finns on the net, which was meant as a friendly answer to
> a Finnish American (a half Finn).
How come you talk about swedish arrogance, and refer to a norwegian (Tor that
is)? Besides, you still haven't been able to give some specific example of the
so called "swedish" arrogance.
>>
>> If you fail to do so I will have to conclude that the real
>> problem with soc.culture.nordic is not Swedish arrogance but
>> Finnish stupidity (as usual).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How very true.
//G|ran
--
Death before disco!
Bernard Breton
What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the Germans
tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
Japanese would like to be? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily, technologically, and
culturally.
We are constantly being asked to bring thruth, justice and the American way to all parts
of the world.
Most technological innovations are still comming out of the USA. The other countries just
copy or simply improve on our ideas.
Most American states have a stronger economy that most countries in the world. Our
single digit unemployment rate is no contest compared to the rate in some of the nordic
countries (20% in Finland).
As for culture, let's not forget the new Mc Donalds in Iceland. Its unfortunate that
the rest of the world accepts only the boring, main-stream american cultures.
Foreigners think that all Americans eat Big Macs and watch "Beverly Hills 90210".
That is narrow minded as Americans thinking that all Sweedish girls are Blond-haired
big chested beauties who prance around with very little clothes on.
Bernard
--
Bernard Breton bbr...@lehman.com
Lehman Brothers - Equity Derivative Systems
(212) 640 -9577
We must repeat
Henrik Jonsson
>Swedish war heros (WW2)
The smallest number, bigger than zero, known to science:
knut.duste.fjert's IQ.
Stig-Lennart Soerensen
|> [Blah, blah, blah deleted]
|> That is narrow minded as Americans thinking that all Sweedish girls are Blond-haired
|> big chested beauties who prance around with very little clothes on.
Well, its true!
But then again the norwegian girls are MUCH more prettier and intelligent than
the swedish girls!
o--------------------------------------------o
|Stig-Lennart Sørensen, the ace whale-killer |
|E-Mail:st...@stud.cs.uit.no |
|Department of Psychology. | |
|Mail:Stig-Lennart Sørensen, |
| Kveldstuavegen 13 |
| 9013 Tromsø |
| Norway |
| __|__ |
| --o--o--(_)--o--o-- Fly me away... |
| |
|Dagens motto: |
|If we had dolphins, we'd eat them too! |
o--------------------------------------------o
Ahrvid Engholm
hero of peace and humanity, though working in wartime.
I think that type of hero is much better.
Henrik Jonsson
> What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the Germans
> tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
> Japanese would like to be? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily, technologically, and
>culturally.
~~~~~~~~~~~
I just say : Pfft!
>We are constantly being asked to bring thruth, justice and the American way to all parts
>of the world.
I don't want the American way to be exported outside the US. You may very well
keep it by yourself.
>Most technological innovations are still comming out of the USA. The other countries just
>copy or simply improve on our ideas.
As you copied the rocket-tech from runaway-germans...
>Most American states have a stronger economy that most countries in the world. Our
>single digit unemployment rate is no contest compared to the rate in some of the nordic
>countries (20% in Finland).
In Sweden we have had an unemployment rate of approx. 3-4 % the last thirty-
forty years. (though we now have a VERY high rate..:(
>As for culture, let's not forget the new Mc Donalds in Iceland. Its unfortunate that
>the rest of the world accepts only the boring, main-stream american cultures.
Don't mix the words McDonalds and culture in the same sentence. But I agree,
there are many variations to the american culture, like McDonalds, Burger King,
Pizza Hut (the list goes on and on...).
You also make very good movies. I very much admire the american comedies. Very
amusing indeed.
But this is really a very stupid discussion since this have been discussed over
and over again so many times...
I like most things from many different countries and I'm trying to understand
the infamous 'American Way' too.
Well, I'll be seeing you...
Bertil Jonell
> I already referred to Bertil s and Tor s immortal text about
> Finns on the net,
And you call Swedes humourless:)
>Do you consider yourself a super euro human or a living example of the above
>mentioned phenomenon? A Swede would not have make a that kind of statement in
>public!
Selective amnesia I see. I remember writing several articles about
Swedish stupidity.
>Olli-Jukka Paloneva - utv_9...@debet.nhh.no
Bertil Jonell
(Bernard Breton) uses large amouts of hot air to pump himself up into a really
righteous frenzy:
Seven words for you: "Volvo sells more than GM in Japan"
>Bernard Breton bbr...@lehman.com
Chad Leigh
As you copied the rocket-tech from runaway-germans...
----------
Rockets were being developed in the US as well. Goddard launched a rocket in
the USA in the 20s(?). So there :-)
Chad
Unknown
bbr...@eyeball.lehman.com (Bernard Breton) wrote:
>
> What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the Germans
> tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
> Japanese would like to be? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
> Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily, technologically, and
> culturally.
>
(Text deleted)
To non-US readers: PLease don't think that all Americans have such views.
Many of us really do appreciate what we can learn from other cultures and
don't
feel the need to change other cultures simply so that they can be more
"American."
Susan
Lars Hagen
>Most American states have a stronger economy that most countries in the world. Our
>single digit unemployment rate is no contest compared to the rate in some of the nordic
>countries (20% in Finland).
Although many states in the US have strong economies, I am not
convinced that a US state with the same population size as a nordic
country would necessarily have a stronger economy.
As for the unemployment figures, I don't think the US numbers give the
right picture. I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is
that you are only unemployed in the US if you have had a job within
the past 6 or 12 months (I'm not sure of the timeframe) while many
countries in Europe count as unemployed anyone who wants and is
eligible to have a job but does not have one.
Henrik Jonsson
>To non-US readers: PLease don't think that all Americans have such views.
>Many of us really do appreciate what we can learn from other cultures and
>don't
>feel the need to change other cultures simply so that they can be more
>"American."
Thanks. Really, thanks...
>Susan
Robert Jacobson
<ch...@bert.cs.byu.edu> wrote:
>d1...@dtek.chalmers.se said:
>
> As you copied the rocket-tech from runaway-germans...
>
>Rockets were being developed in the US as well. Goddard launched a rocket in
>the USA in the 20s(?). So there :-)
Oh to hell with it, they were being developed by the Chinese
in the 9th Century. Perhaps this whole topic should dissect
Chinese-envy and forget the rest of the world's backwardness.
It's quite ridiculous to use bandwidth to pound Nordics
generally, Swedes in particular, and Americans least of all,
since there is already so much pounding that goes on in the
offline world.
Or is this newsgroup to become the new United Nations? Such
rancor: It may be time to call in the Mysterians!
Bob
Raul Izahi Lopez Hernandez
>
>But then again the norwegian girls are MUCH more prettier and intelligent than
>the swedish girls!
Yes, I KNOW, when it comes to Norwegian women there is no limit to
the number of superlatives one can put in a sentence!
RAUL IZAHI
--
-----------------> Solely responsible for my writings <----------------------
Raul Izahi Lopez Hernandez | Jeg liker Norge! Har du vaert i Norge?
iz...@nova.stanford.edu | GUADALAJARA - PALO ALTO - BERGEN - PALO ALTO
"Real-time or never!" | Soon available at your nearest Silicon Valley
Nissinen Jaakko A
And still you try to create new killing machines to our peaceful
world(JAS-aeroplanes).Well,that's may be swedish idea of peace and humanity.
Brynjulf Owren
>
>knut.duste.fjert writes:
>
>>By the way do you know the name of the thinest book ever
>>printed ??
>
>>Swedish war heros (WW2)
>
>The smallest number, bigger than zero, known to science:
>
>knut.duste.fjert's IQ.
Only a Swede can be stupid enough to assume that there exists a smallest
real positive number :-)
Brynjulf Owren
Jarmo Ryyti
: What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior
as the Germans
: tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are and the
: Japanese would like to be? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:
This story I heard in Norway. Where else:-)
It is about the Nordic characteristics, the Nordics often know this
allready but the story is aimed for the non-Nordics.
Here it goes:
A boat who had as passangers Danes, Norwegians,Finns and Swedes
was sunk and the passangers had to swim to the nearest island.
All were rescued there. The Danes founded immediately a cooperative,
the Norwegians started to build a ship, the Finns fell all the
trees of the island and the Swedes.. they were waiting for that they
would be introduced for the others...:-)
jarmo
Jarmo Ryyti
: In article <BBRETON.93...@eyeball.lehman.com>
(Bernard Breton) uses large amouts of hot air to pump himself up into a really
: righteous frenzy:
: Seven words for you: "Volvo sells more than GM in Japan"
Why GM does not sell in Japan? The Japanese told to me that the
Americans want to sell stubbornly cars ment _for the right hand traffic_
in Japan. When they are not bought flies the president
with a delegation from US to Japan whining about trade barriers:-)
jarmo
Tor Slettnes
| What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as the
| Germans tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they
| are and the Japanese would like to be? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+------ The wit of bbr...@eyeball.lehman.com (Bernard Breton):
| Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily,
| technologically, and culturally.
+-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
And weakest when it comes to knowledge about events outside the US.
(Honestly: Do people really still believe this??)
+------
| We are constantly being asked to bring thruth, justice and the
| American way to all parts of the world.
+------
Asked by whom? Rush Limbaugh?
+------
| Most technological innovations are still comming out of the USA. The
| other countries just copy or simply improve on our ideas.
+------
Like the automobile, the cinematograph (even the VCR), the radar,
the computer (Blaise Pascal.. heh), ... and last, but not least,
the metric system? :)
+------
| Most American states have a stronger economy that most countries in
| the world. Our single digit unemployment rate is no contest compared
| to the rate in some of the nordic countries (20% in Finland).
+------
Without the ability to deal with homelessness, health care, education...
+------
| As for culture, let's not forget the new Mc Donalds in Iceland. Its
| unfortunate that the rest of the world accepts only the boring,
| main-stream american cultures. Foreigners think that all Americans
| eat Big Macs and watch "Beverly Hills 90210".
+------
Some Americans (No I won't mention any names, Bernard) doesn't exactly
seem to weaken this "uncultivated" image..
On McDonalds in Iceland: They got their first American hamburger store
in 1993, after more than 1000 years without any. How long has the US
had Chinese restaurants? (Or greek, italian for that matter)
+------
| That is narrow minded as Americans thinking that all Sweedish girls
| are Blond-haired big chested beauties who prance around with very
| little clothes on.
+------
No, THAT is true. Narrowmindedness was examplified earlier in your
article.
-tor
Bertil Jonell
As amazing as it might sound, Jarmo is correct about that.
Henrik Jonsson
>>
>>The smallest number, bigger than zero, known to science:
>>
>>knut.duste.fjert's IQ.
>Only a Swede can be stupid enough to assume that there exists a smallest
>real positive number :-)
~~~~~
The number doesn't have to be real.
But the question is: Is a man with a login name like '274e4$fb3' real? :)
But I shouldn't flame for name, right?
Well, oo...
Peter Lund
>In article <BBRETON.93...@eyeball.lehman.com>,
>bbr...@eyeball.lehman.com (Bernard Breton) wrote:
>> Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily, technologically, and
>> culturally.
>To non-US readers: PLease don't think that all Americans have such views.
Do you really think you have to point that out for us? Don't you think we know
that much of America? This is a fun discussion between induviduals, not between
cultures.
>Many of us really do appreciate what we can learn from other cultures and
>don't
>feel the need to change other cultures simply so that they can be more
>"American."
We have already copied enough from American "culture". But except from fat
fast food, Hollywood and Elvis Presly, is there anything else, that hasn't
from the start been imported from Europe or Mexico (and most of this from
Spain)?
---
Peter Lund, Stockholm
Torbj|rn Keisu
Could you please explain how Arhvid's statement relates to yours? I don't see the connection or maybe is
this just yet another unrelated bashing?
/tk
Kim G. Sandstrom
>> In <1993Sep13....@abo.fi> OPAL...@FINABO.ABO.FI (Olli-Jukka
>> Paloneva Tkkk) writes:
[stuff deleted]
>> If you fail to do so I will have to conclude that the real
>> problem with soc.culture.nordic is not Swedish arrogance but
>> Finnish stupidity (as usual).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[more stuff deleted]
>
>Do you consider yourself a super euro human or a living example of the above
>mentioned phenomenon? A Swede would not have make a that kind of statement in
>public!
Well, well, well..., ...well, well..., ...well!
Spare the flame a little bit. He is olny displaying a Finnish merit. Yes,
there are such. In this case honesty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
They worried and helped, they said everything would be all right.
But they could not understand or see, they did not know.
Emotion had won over intellect. That is evil!
PALONEVA, OLLI-JUKKA
Dear Susan,
> >
> > Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily, technologically, and
>
>
> To non-US readers: PLease don't think that all Americans have such views.
> Many of us really do appreciate what we can learn from other cultures and
> don't
I fully understand that in big nations the national identity must be formed by
rather artificial way to resist heterogenic fragmentation. Big nations can
afford to be split, but for small nations it can be devastating. The general
believes, which are necessary to make people stick together and society running
may reflect from time to time more political necessity determined by the
establishment rather than "imaginary" will of people. I do know some Americans
and I know that above mentioned mentality is not shared by them.
> feel the need to change other cultures simply so that they can be more
> "American."
USA as a state has responsibilities that Japan and Europe are reluctant to
share even if they can afford. The war for the independence of
Bosnia-Herzegovina is one example. Americans are waited for help the same tine
they are blaimed to be hardliners.
>
>
> Susan
Olli-Jukka Paloneva - utv_9...@debet.nhh.no
Kim G. Sandstrom
>From: bbr...@eyeball.lehman.com (Bernard Breton)
>Subject: NODRIC arrogance (was Swedish arrogance)
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 16:21:24 GMT
[American egocentrism deleted]
>Bernard
>--
>Bernard Breton bbr...@lehman.com
>Lehman Brothers - Equity Derivative Systems
>(212) 640 -9577
> We must repeat
As for American culture: I think that Mr. Heinz invented the ketchup and
hamburgers is a derivate of German "Fleissbrot". French fries are french
fries (chips to some of you) Hollywood cannot make (even a comedy or teenage
film) without violence.
As for American inventions: Eddison did not invent the electric lamp a
britton named Compton did. Eddison just read his patent he had telegraphed
from London. Filed his own parent in the US and claimed he was first. An
American bussiness man won again.
The list goes on and on. Jet engine, A-bomb, rockets were invented by
Germans (exiled or non-exiled). Radar, transistor and Computer were
Brittish inventions. Yes Touring was really Brittish.
And you americans are thought those half-lies about US-supremacy.
CD-player, Walkman etc are not American inventions. But uh, sorry I suppose
you concentrate your cultural efforts on that big raygun in the sky...
Conclusion:
Take Ami-egocentrism as a lesson for everyone that opposes Mastricht!
Kim G. Sandstrom
>Subject: Re: NODRIC arrogance (was Swedish arrogance)
>Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 17:41:51 GMT
>In article <BBRETON.93...@eyeball.lehman.com>, bbr...@eyeball.lehman.com (Bernard Breton) writes:
>
>|> [Blah, blah, blah deleted]
>|> That is narrow minded as Americans thinking that all Sweedish girls are Blond-haired
>|> big chested beauties who prance around with very little clothes on.
>
>Well, its true!
>
>But then again the norwegian girls are MUCH more prettier and intelligent than
>the swedish girls!
I cannot help it. And then again I am looking forward to the joke war
between the nordic countries. I Just have to retell a true story about the
Norwegians:
There was this Swede who was on a nordic vacation with his family. Wife,
a preschool kid and a friend couple of the family. Five good friends all
in all. He was pulling their caravan with his go-everywhere car trough the
Norwegian border check. One customs offical notices him an stoppes the car.
He asks for the registration notice and reads it loud as he pokes his ear.
-Hmm... Audi... year model -91... registration number... Isn,t your
car overloaded? Five persons are all to much for such a small car!
-huh??! No, this car is registered for five persons.
The Swede replies.
-That cannot be...! In our papers it takes only four persons.
The Customs man replies as he scratches lazielly his adams apple.
-No.
The Swede replies angrily and continues.
-Learn to read you are holdig the registration notice for my car, and if you
do not beleive me, then call your boss!
The customs official scratches his head and plays with his tongue meting his
nose.
-Hmm. OK. I'll call my boss, but you will se that he supports me...
He starts shouting down the line of cars:
-Boss, can you come here to sort out an overload case in an Audi Quattro!
The boss 20 meters away pulls his head out of a small car and shouts back:
-No I'm occupied with a FIAT Uno that carries two persons!
Knut Fjellheim
|> What is the secret formula, which makes the Swedes as superior as
|>the Germans
|> tried to be, the Russians were, the Americans still think they are
|>and the
|> Japanese would like to be? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>
|>
|>Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily,
|>technologically, and
|>culturally.
Military, Yes. But what is so great about that? What has the US done to
promote peace? Fighting Iraq? That was only economical reasons (oil) and
way for Bush to get reelected (and he failed, I am glad to say). I
suppose you wouldn't like to discuss central-America.
Technologically? Japan is slowly gaining on you, and has already in some
aspects passed you (e.g. car technology, home electronics).
Culturally? I admit that the US culture (+ europe = western culture?)
has displaced other cultures, but is the western culture really so
great? Sokrates would (in modern terms) western culture as 'an evil
piece of shit'.
|>We are constantly being asked to bring thruth, justice and the
|>American way to all parts
|>of the world.
Wrong! We have never asked you to do anything.You have some crazy 'Dirty
Harry is my hero' mentality. The US is _NOT_ the police of the world.
You should really get out of Somalia. You have completely screwed up all
humanitarian work in that country, not to mention throwing dirt on the
reputation of the UN and its soldiers. It was the US who came up with
the mentally ill idea that the UN should create peace by conducting war!
No sane mind could ever come up with a policy like that! When will
americans learn the lesson that europe has learned: Peace is created by
understanding your enemy, by talking with your enemy, by negotiations,
and not with a gun in your hand.
I lived int he US for 4 years, and I have to say that a great deal of
americans are out of touch with reallity. I do not wish to stereotype
americans, I do have a number of friends in the US, and there are also a
lot of aware americans. Neither would I say that Norway is void of
airheads, but on the average the US is in more trouble than any other
country I know of.
The peace creating archetype are "Dirty Harry","Rambo", etc. Blow the
bad guys away! Peace is created by violence! Amen!
|>Most technological innovations are still comming out of the USA. The
|>other countries just
|>copy or simply improve on our ideas.
Granted! Japan does have a creativity problem, but is working hard to
overcome that limitation.
|>Most American states have a stronger economy that most countries in
|>the world. Our
|>single digit unemployment rate is no contest compared to the rate in
|>some of the nordic
|>countries (20% in Finland).
We (Norway) have a single digit unemployment rate as well, and so does
several other european countries as well.
|>As for culture, let's not forget the new Mc Donalds in Iceland. Its
|>unfortunate that
|>the rest of the world accepts only the boring, main-stream american
|>cultures.
|>Foreigners think that all Americans eat Big Macs and watch "Beverly
|>Hills 90210".
|>That is narrow minded as Americans thinking that all Sweedish girls
|>are Blond-haired
|>big chested beauties who prance around with very little clothes on.
Americans do eat junk-food all the time! You can go to any MacDonalds,
Carl's Junior, Kentucky Fried, Poppeys, Burger King, Taco Bell (and
numerous other junk-food resturants) and you will have to wait in line.
Go to any mall and you _will_ find junk food. My friends would take one
look at the university cafeteria food, say "yack", and drive to MacD's.
I also used to work with some girls during the summer, and guess what
they did during lunch? They watched "Santa Barbra" (Soap)on TV! An what
about the guys? Football + basketball + baseball on TV! And what did
everybody do when they did not watch TV? They took off to some party
somewhere organized by someone they never had heard of.
Well, then again, it does remind me somewhat of life in Norway as well.
(Soccer on TV + bar-hopping on weekends). I guess western life is just
like drug-addiction: You have to work hard to maintain the feeling of
pleasure. How empty...
Tor Slettnes
| A boat who had as passangers Danes, Norwegians,Finns and Swedes
| was sunk and the passangers had to swim to the nearest island.
|
| All were rescued there. The Danes founded immediately a cooperative,
| the Norwegians started to build a ship, the Finns fell all the
| trees of the island and the Swedes.. they were waiting for that they
| would be introduced for the others...:-)
This story originally contained other nationalities:
The two Germans (on one island) had started a coconut milk factory.
The two Americans (on another island) were still blaming each
other for the sinking of the ship.
The two Brits were still living in utter silence, waiting to be
formally introduced to each other.
-tor
Lars Hagen
>As for the unemployment figures, I don't think the US numbers give the
>right picture. I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is
>that you are only unemployed in the US if you have had a job within
>the past 6 or 12 months (I'm not sure of the timeframe) while many
>countries in Europe count as unemployed anyone who wants and is
>eligible to have a job but does not have one.
In response to this post I received the following e-mail message from
Ruth Sylte.
From: "Ruth M. SYLTE" <RMS...@uci.edu>
Encoding: 1320 Text
Message-Id: <9308147480....@SMTPLINK.UGS.UCI.EDU>
To: la...@CS.UCLA.EDU
Subject: USA unemployment
Saw your comments on soc.culture.nordic. I'm not connected
directly so must responde by e-mail.
I believe the concept to which you're refering has more to
do with UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE and UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION
than it does with actual figures. To receive unemployment
compensation from the government, (as I understand it) you
must have been terminated or laid off from your job within
the last six to twelve months in order to receive the
checks.
The U.S.A. umemployment figures are, I believe, just as in
the other countries you mention. If you are eligible to
have a job and do not have one, you are unemployed.
I don't know if the same situation exists in other countries
(though it probably does), but these umemployment figures
unfortunately do not reflect the MANY people who are
UNDEREMPLOYED - that is, have taken jobs far below their
skills and abilities in order to meet their financial
obligations. These people are not considered unemployed,
but they are in a terrible position for their education and
skills.
Greetings from UC-Irvine!
Ruth Marie
Lars Hagen
>Conclusion:
>Take Ami-egocentrism as a lesson for everyone that opposes Mastricht!
It's amazing how the many people on s.c.n who criticize Americans for
their ignorance of the world and inability to see the diversity in the
cultures of the world jump all over the ramblings of a poster
(Bernhard Breton) with an obvious ego-problem and make him a spokesman
for American opinions. Fortunately, a more reasonable American posted
a followup explaining to s.c.n readers that Bernhard's views are not
representative of all Americans. You would think however, that this
should be an unnecessary exercise and that s.c.n readers would be able
to figure out that some fanatic posting to s.c.n does not represent
the views of an average American.
- Lars
Peer Landa
Lars Hagen writes:
"As for the unemployment figures, I don't think the US numbers give
the right picture. I may be wrong about this, but my understanding
is that you are only unemployed in the US if you have had a job
within the past 6 or 12 months (I'm not sure of the timeframe) while
many countries in Europe count as unemployed anyone who wants and is
eligible to have a job but does not have one."
What Lars Hagen is implying here is correct: when comparing different
countries to each other, we ought to look at how the statistics are
made. US is know to have quite a different procedure to get specific
data than Norway & Sweden. That is quite evident when looking at how
they derive the statistics of illiteracy, suicide, domestic-violence,
and unemployment. The procedure and classifications for statistics
in the Scandinavian countries are generally recognized to be either
more strict and/or treated to a greater degree as research.
Scandinavians (especially Swedes) loves statistics, peculiarly when
the data are bad & crazy...as they all are.
-- peer
Tor Slettnes
| Americans want to sell stubbornly cars ment _for the right hand traffic_
| in Japan. When they are not bought flies the president
| with a delegation from US to Japan whining about trade barriers:-)
| jarmo
How terribly typical! And it was probaly about 10 years since I saw a
program on Norwegian TV about how American industry was in the
progress of becoming more flexible, to "tailor" their production for
needs in other markets..
Guess again.
-tor
Bernard Breton
> I don't want the American way to be exported outside the US.
> You may very well keep it by yourself.
I only wish that the majority shared your view. Then we could concentrate
on solving our own problems... and not on saving the rest of the world from
itself.
>>As for culture, let's not forget the new Mc Donalds in Iceland.
>>Its unfortunate that the rest of the world accepts only the boring,
>> main-stream american cultures.
> I agree, there are many variations to the american culture, like
>McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut (the list goes on and on...).
Thank you for helping me make a point. Your's is a typical view.
> But this is really a very stupid discussion since this have been
>discussed over and over again so many times...
I'm new to to this group and didn't know that it would bring such flames. 8-|
Best regards,
Bernard Breton
> To non-US readers: PLease don't think that all Americans have such views.
> Many of us really do appreciate what we can learn from other cultures and
> don't
> feel the need to change other cultures simply so that they can be more
> "American."
> Susan
In my defense, I never said that Americans want to change the world into
a big America. Rather, it seems that plenty of people in the rest of the
world want to be more like america. ** FLAME ON**
Even if their view of U.S. is lame. ( Knowing all the different
fast food places does not make you culturally aware..) **FLAME OFF***
Tor Slettnes
| In my defense, I never said that Americans want to change the world into
| a big America. Rather, it seems that plenty of people in the rest of the
| world want to be more like america. ** FLAME ON**
| Even if their view of U.S. is lame. ( Knowing all the different
| fast food places does not make you culturally aware..) **FLAME OFF***
I can't believe this! You are not true! The PERFECT flame-bait!
The people in "the rest of the world [who] want to be more like
america" are usually between the ages of 8 and 15. Kindof suitable.
Knowing food places DOES make you culturally aware when it comes to
the US. There is not much else to know in terms of this topic.
-tor
Chad Leigh
-------------------------
The people in "the rest of the world [who] want to be more like
america" are usually between the ages of 8 and 15. Kindof suitable.
Knowing food places DOES make you culturally aware when it comes to
the US. There is not much else to know in terms of this topic.
Oh, come on, this is lame. I have lived in Germany for over 3.5 years of
my life (as an adult). The average person there is not any more "cultural"
and aware than the average American. All they do is think Football (soccer),
drink beer, and complain about the government, and not because of American
influence! (only half said with a :-) ). It seems that people in most
areas of the world are more similar than not. Most of the people I know
in the USA are concerned about world events, enjoy real "culture", are not
football/baseball addicts (though some do enjoy that occasionally) and
are not any more drunk on average than Scandinavians or Germans seem to be.
America has lots of culture, Mark Twain, Aaron Copeland, etc. to name a few
off the top of my head. Remember that the USA is a relatively modern
country made up of immigrants for the most partr from other parts of the
world, so US culture is a mixture and outgrowth from other cultures, and
is a modern culture, not a 1000 year old culture.
Pop culture != culture. All countries have both a Pop culture as well as
a culture (in the traditional sense). Just because most people here
seem to be ignorant of US culture and only familiar with US Pop culture
does not mean that there is not any.
Anyway, enough of this drivel.
Chad
Henrik Jonsson
> I only wish that the majority shared your view. Then we could concentrate
>on solving our own problems... and not on saving the rest of the world from
>itself.
'Saving the rest of the world from itself.'???
If the subject wasn't quite serious, I'd probably laugh.
US is just like the Marvel Comic Heroes, right? Even though they are
being misunderstood they save the world, over and over again...
When, in the last 48 years have the US saved the world? I do admit
that you helped out pretty well in WW2.
>>>As for culture, let's not forget the new Mc Donalds in Iceland.
This is a strange sentence I do not understand. Is this a good or a bad
thing?
I think it SUCKS!!!
Henrik Jonsson
>In my defense, I never said that Americans want to change the world into
>a big America. Rather, it seems that plenty of people in the rest of the
> world want to be more like america.
Yes, we get America stuffed down our throats over here. Yes, I (often)wear
Levis, I (sometimes) eat at Burger King, I watch American movies (rarely but
anyway...), I listen to LOTS of music from the US. BUT I don't buy the
fantastic 'American Way'.
>** FLAME ON**
> Even if their view of U.S. is lame. ( Knowing all the different
>fast food places does not make you culturally aware..) **FLAME OFF***
Enlighten me, please!
Show me some example on GREAT AMERICAN CULTURE, which doesn't contain
bowling alleys, Drive-In movies, Burger-restaurants, flashy Broadway-musicals,
chewing-gum and silly Hollywood-comedies.
Thank you for being so patient.
Henrik Jonsson
>Pop culture != culture. All countries have both a Pop culture as well as
>a culture (in the traditional sense). Just because most people here
>seem to be ignorant of US culture and only familiar with US Pop culture
>does not mean that there is not any.
The Pop-culture is one of the few things that US have succeded in starting.
Staffan Friberg
Oops, I'll save this and print it out when I can get my hands on a printer. :-)
Should it go into alt.best.of.internet (or whatever it's called)?
:-)
--
//
//
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ // AMIGA +++
+ Staffan Friberg + EMail: \X/ +
+ Undergraduate student Chemistry + +
+ Linköping University + InterNet: st...@rabbit.augs.se +
+ Sweden + FidoNet: 2:204/404.2 +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Trí nithe is géire ar bith:
dealg múnlaigh, fiacal con agus focal amadáin.
Lars Hagen
>I can't believe this! You are not true! The PERFECT flame-bait!
You're right. He must be false. :-)
>The people in "the rest of the world [who] want to be more like
>america" are usually between the ages of 8 and 15. Kindof suitable.
It's amazing how those 8 and 15 year olds run away from their home en
masse to get into the US. I guess the parents of the world would do
Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the xenophobes in the US a big favor by
keeping better control of their kids.
>Knowing food places DOES make you culturally aware when it comes to
>the US. There is not much else to know in terms of this topic.
Yeah right, just like knowledge of lutefisk and akevitt makes you
culturally aware of Norway.
- Lars
Lars Hagen
>Show me some example on GREAT AMERICAN CULTURE, which doesn't contain
>bowling alleys, Drive-In movies, Burger-restaurants, flashy Broadway-musicals,
>chewing-gum and silly Hollywood-comedies.
I think the definition of GREAT AMERICAN CULTURE will differ
considerably depending on who you talk to, but examples in addition to
the ones mentioned above might be jazz, country and western,
skyscrapers, Wright's architecture, Hemingway's writing, Steinbeck's
writing, Updike's writing, Chaplin's movies, Coppola's movies,
Pollack's paintings, Warhol's paintings, Cajun cuisine and Apple pie.
- Lars
Lars Hagen
>The peace creating archetype are "Dirty Harry","Rambo", etc. Blow the
>bad guys away! Peace is created by violence! Amen!
Unfortunately this is true for a lot of other countries in addition to
the US. These movies seem to be hits in almost any country. One of
the hardest challenges facing us, in my opinion, is how to reduce the
tremendous appeal that violence has.
knu...@babbage.hsn.no (Knut Fjellheim) writes:
>Americans do eat junk-food all the time! You can go to any MacDonalds,
>Carl's Junior, Kentucky Fried, Poppeys, Burger King, Taco Bell (and
>numerous other junk-food resturants) and you will have to wait in line.
>Go to any mall and you _will_ find junk food. My friends would take one
>look at the university cafeteria food, say "yack", and drive to MacD's.
>I also used to work with some girls during the summer, and guess what
>they did during lunch? They watched "Santa Barbra" (Soap)on TV! An what
>about the guys? Football + basketball + baseball on TV! And what did
>everybody do when they did not watch TV? They took off to some party
>somewhere organized by someone they never had heard of.
Although it is true that the US has done its fair share of making the
world's diet unhealthy, they have also lately made some small steps in
a different direction. The aerobics craze that swept across the world
originated in the US, and the remarkable reduction in the number of
smokers in California might be a good example to other parts of the
world.
- Lars
Raul Izahi Lopez Hernandez
>We have already copied enough from American "culture". But except from fat
>fast food, Hollywood and Elvis Presly, is there anything else, that hasn't
>from the start been imported from Europe or Mexico (and most of this from
>Spain)?
and hot sauces, or Mexican-American from places close to the border,
like hard shell tacos and canned sauces and beans. The Spanish food is
quite different from the Mexican food: Gazpachos and Paella are Spanish.
RAUL IZAHI
--
-----------------> Solely responsible for my writings <----------------------
Raul Izahi Lopez Hernandez | Jeg liker Norge! Har du vaert i Norge?
iz...@nova.stanford.edu | GUADALAJARA - PALO ALTO - BERGEN - PALO ALTO
"Real-time or never!" | Soon available at your nearest Silicon Valley
Tor Slettnes
| I can't believe this! You are not true! The PERFECT flame-bait!
+------ la...@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Lars Hagen ) said:
| You're right. He must be false. :-)
|
| [ + other stuff, far less insulting than what I wrote ]
+------
Hey Lars..
Could you keep down at the original level when responding? I mean,
throw some dirt etc.. Would make me feel less bad about what I said,
sort of.. :-}
-tor
Susan F Bradley
>-tor
Oh, I'm sorry but I just can't read this one without comment. All of you
Euro-snobs who keep harping that fast food is the only culture the US has
are nothing more than pig-ignorant jerks. Read some Toni Morrison or T.
Coraghessan Boyle. Take a look at some Jackson Pollock or Georgia O'Keefe.
Listen to some Copeland or Gershwin. Whether you like to admit it or not -
American "pop" culture sells well in the rest of the world because you're all
just as shallow and crass as we are.
--
Sooz Bradley
W.E.N.C.H. Lookin' to fill this space
ISU chapter president
Peter Lund
>... All of you
>Euro-snobs who keep harping that fast food is the only culture the US has
>are nothing more than pig-ignorant jerks.
That's better. Now you start to get some hang on this debate style and level!
>Read some Toni Morrison or T.
>Coraghessan Boyle. Take a look at some Jackson Pollock or Georgia O'Keefe.
>Listen to some Copeland or Gershwin.
Who are these people? Ok, Gershwin I have heard about, but he isn't precisely one
of the most famous classical composers.
>Whether you like to admit it or not -
>American "pop" culture sells well in the rest of the world because you're all
>just as shallow and crass as we are.
Also a lot of SWEDISH pop culture sells a lot around the world. Havn't you heard
anything of ABBA, Roxette, Dr Alban or Europe to mention a few. For only being a
country of 8 million people (compared to ~ 250 in USA) I think Sweden is well rep-
resented in the pop world, maybe better represented than the US.
And what about cars? Isn't Volvo a very good example of Swedish quality? So good
that even the Frensh government buys a large portion of its stocks. Is there at
all any American comparison to Volvo?
>--
>Sooz Bradley
>W.E.N.C.H. Lookin' to fill this space
>ISU chapter president
---
Peter Lund, Stockholm
Marcus Gustavsson
You're wrong, if we were as shallow as you are, we wouldn't
be able to criticize you in the way we do. Quite probably the
idea to criticize you at all, wouldn't float to the surface.
The thing is that we are shallow, but still a tiny bit more
cultural than you. By pointing out small differences between us,
it seems as if our shallowness resounds with depths unheard of,
thereby giving us peace to sleep a little longer.
Hej
mof
--
Chalmers | Rock'n'roll is an outlet for what hurts most
University | No money, no women, no alcohol or whatever
of | Rock'n'roll is our channel to give vent to our frustrations
Technology | Our music comes straight from the heart -Bon Scott
Chad Leigh
>Americans do eat junk-food all the time! You can go to any MacDonalds,
>Carl's Junior, Kentucky Fried, Poppeys, Burger King, Taco Bell (and
>numerous other junk-food resturants) and you will have to wait in line.
>Go to any mall and you _will_ find junk food. My friends would take one
>look at the university cafeteria food, say "yack", and drive to MacD's.
>I also used to work with some girls during the summer, and guess what
>they did during lunch? They watched "Santa Barbra" (Soap)on TV! An what
>about the guys? Football + basketball + baseball on TV! And what did
>everybody do when they did not watch TV? They took off to some party
>somewhere organized by someone they never had heard of.
Gee, in Norway they don't have lines? In NOrway you can't go off to McDonalds,
or a korv-stand, or a pizza place, or a Donerkebab stand whenever you want?
I go to a fast food place abvout 1 time a month on average. Most Americans
I know are about the same. Americans don't live off of fast food. Sure
there is a fast food stand on every corner, and some people go there A LOT,
but most just occasionally.
When I was in Scandinavia, I had to wait in line at McDonalds/Burger King
too (just trying to get rid of my last few crowns :-)
And other countries don't have TVs? No favorite soap operas? No Soccer/football?
Chad
Torkel Franzen
(Susan F Bradley) writes:
>Name me a few famous Swedish composers.
Snorgol Blargut is quite famous, as is Fnord Alumb. Possibly, however,
you have never heard of them. Actually, there is neither a Swedish
Grieg, nor a Swedish Sibelius, nor again a Swedish Nielsen.
Tor Slettnes
| ... All of you Euro-snobs who keep harping that fast food is the only
| culture the US has are nothing more than pig-ignorant jerks.
Wooo! A bit touchy are we? Hmmm.
Whenever you feel like coming down to our level, you'll have so much
more fun playing around a bit w/stereotypes etc. (Maybe then you won't
take everything said about your country that personally...:)
+------ etx...@eua.ericsson.se (Peter Lund) writes:
| That's better. Now you start to get some hang on this debate style
| and level!
+------
Yes.. But her countercritizism is still a bit feeble:
+------ Susan F Bradley:
| Whether you like to admit it or not - American "pop" culture sells
| well in the rest of the world because you're all just as shallow
| and crass as we are.
+------
+------ Peter Lund:
| Also a lot of SWEDISH pop culture sells a lot around the world.
| Havn't you heard anything of ABBA, Roxette, Dr Alban or Europe to
| mention a few. For only being a country of 8 million people
| (compared to ~ 250 in USA) I think Sweden is well rep- resented in
| the pop world, maybe better represented than the US.
+------
+------
| As for Dr. Alban & Europe - who or what are they? As for ABBA & Roxette -
| they are famous for performing an AMERICAN music form - in English, no less.
+------
Hey sooz, did anyone ever explain to you about the history of pop
music? You'd realize that it is NOT all American, but has developed
through years and years of interaction between many different
cultures, originally based on a mixture between African and American
(imported from Europe) music forms. As for music today, most of the
'progressive' or 'techno' style music is made in Europe; in America
everyone is still hopelessly addicted to either heavy metal or
"soft hits".
Europe: They had "The final countdown".. remember?
As for classical music:
+------ Susan F Bradley:
| Name me a few famous Swedish composers.
+------
You name some of them from, say California (>3 times the population
of Sweden).. Point: They are rare. But at least, most of them DO come
from Europe. (Now if you extend your scope to Scandinavia, you'd find
Edvard Grieg, for one..)
-tor
PS.. Isn't this a silly flamewar anyway ("We got more composers than
you! Our artists are more famous than yours!"). This is, again, an
American concept about "culture".. The term "culture" does elsewhere
also deal with behavior, ways of thinking, history, language, social
relationships, etc. etc.. All in all, most European countries have
much more uniqueness when it comes to these aspects than does USA.
Susan F Bradley
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If I say, "Norwegian culture is nothing but
lutefisk and sweaters." or "Swedish culture is nothing but rotten herring
and Dala horses." am I presenting a valid criticism of these cultures?
Would I even be demonstrating enough knowledge of those cultures to entitle
me to an opinion? Most definitely not. Likewise, saying that American
culture is nothing but hamburgers and blue jeans shows only a lack of
knowledge of American culture. Shallowness, in other words. You are guilty
of the very thing you claim to criticize Americans for.
Interesting that your signature includes a quote about an *AMERICAN* music
form.
Susan F Bradley
>---
>Peter Lund, Stockholm
Toni Morrison & T. Coraghessan Boyle - contemporary American authors. Perhaps
not published in Sweden.
Aaron Copeland, composer.
As for Dr. Alban & Europe - who or what are they? As for ABBA & Roxette -
they are famous for performing an AMERICAN music form - in English, no less.
Name me a few famous Swedish composers.
--
Peer Landa
Susan F Bradley writes:
"Toni Morrison & T. Coraghessan Boyle - contemporary American
authors. Perhaps not published in Sweden.
Aaron Copeland, composer.
As for Dr. Alban & Europe - who or what are they? As for ABBA &
Roxette - they are famous for performing an AMERICAN music form - in
English, no less.
Name me a few famous Swedish composers."
Ok, Swedish famous composers worth mention: Sven-David Sandstrom,
Lars-Gunnar Bodin, Jan W. Morthenson, Hugo Alven, Gunnar Bucht, Per
Lindgren, Rolf Enstrom...all just out of my head. Due to the lack of
support for the arts, US will lose badly if comparing number of
professional composers per capita.
-- peer
Lars Hagen
> You're wrong, if we were as shallow as you are, we wouldn't
> be able to criticize you in the way we do. Quite probably the
> idea to criticize you at all, wouldn't float to the surface.
> The thing is that we are shallow, but still a tiny bit more
> cultural than you. By pointing out small differences between us,
> it seems as if our shallowness resounds with depths unheard of,
> thereby giving us peace to sleep a little longer.
Well, by your own reasoning, maybe American culture is not as shallow
as you think. Some of the harshest criticism of US culture that I
have seen anywhere comes from US citizens.
- Lars
Staffan Friberg
> In my defense, I never said that Americans want to change the world into
> a big America. Rather, it seems that plenty of people in the rest of the
> world want to be more like america.
That is an interesting statement, can you show us anything that supports it or
is it just your personal opinion?
Why should we want to be like you? That is what I really can't understand.
Raul Izahi Lopez Hernandez
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Organization: A very good idea
>References: <BBRETON.93...@eyeball.lehman.com> <275cot$9...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu> <BBRETON.93...@mf7718.lehman.com>
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 13:43:15 GMT
>Lines: 17
>
> +------ The wit of bbr...@mf7718.lehman.com (Bernard Breton):
> | In my defense, I never said that Americans want to change the world into
> | a big America. Rather, it seems that plenty of people in the rest of the
> | world want to be more like america. ** FLAME ON**
> | Even if their view of U.S. is lame. ( Knowing all the different
> | fast food places does not make you culturally aware..) **FLAME OFF***
> +------
>
>I can't believe this! You are not true! The PERFECT flame-bait!
>
>The people in "the rest of the world [who] want to be more like
>america" are usually between the ages of 8 and 15. Kindof suitable.
>
>Knowing food places DOES make you culturally aware when it comes to
>the US. There is not much else to know in terms of this topic.
>
>-tor
If I my say so (as opposed to LISTEN DORKS!), America is the WHOLE
thing, from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego, the U.S. is the U.S., not
"America", I just hate it when people talk about "America" and are only
referring to the U.S.
RAUL :) IZAHI
Raul Izahi Lopez Hernandez
>
>Show me some example on GREAT AMERICAN CULTURE, which doesn't contain
>bowling alleys, Drive-In movies, Burger-restaurants, flashy Broadway-musicals,
>chewing-gum and silly Hollywood-comedies.
>
>Thank you for being so patient.
My pleasure:
The GREAT AMERICAN (USian) CULTURE, includes some of the most
fantastic museums in the world like the Metropolitan Museum in New York,
the Art Institute of Chicago, and great Opera and Symphony houses like
the Metropolitan Opera in NY, the San Francisco Opera (which I will be
attending soon :) ) and dozens of other great music halls and museums.
In the Nordic countries you have to travel more than the average muslim
to be able to find world art or great concerts.
This place gathers a lot of the Best and the Brightest... Leif Ove
Andsnes (sp) and Arve Tellefsen (sp) will be here in a few months! I'll
try to meet them after their concerts and discuss what we talk about in
this newsgroup... :)
RAUL IZAHI
Lars Hagen
>PS.. Isn't this a silly flamewar anyway ("We got more composers than
>you! Our artists are more famous than yours!"). This is, again, an
>American concept about "culture".. The term "culture" does elsewhere
>also deal with behavior, ways of thinking, history, language, social
>relationships, etc. etc.. All in all, most European countries have
>much more uniqueness when it comes to these aspects than does USA.
You mean we can't measure culture by number of composers. What a
bummer.
I guess that means the only thing that counts is opinion. You say
European culture is more unique and Ms. Bradley says US culture is
more unique. Sounds like a tie to me.
On to the next debate we go :-)
- Lars
Ahrvid Engholm
> The GREAT AMERICAN (USian) CULTURE, includes some of the most
>fantastic museums in the world like the Metropolitan Museum in New York,
>the Art Institute of Chicago, and great Opera and Symphony houses like
>the Metropolitan Opera in NY, the San Francisco Opera (which I will be
>attending soon :) ) and dozens of other great music halls and museums.
>In the Nordic countries you have to travel more than the average muslim
>to be able to find world art or great concerts.
> This place gathers a lot of the Best and the Brightest... Leif Ove
>Andsnes (sp) and Arve Tellefsen (sp) will be here in a few months! I'll
>try to meet them after their concerts and discuss what we talk about in
>this newsgroup... :)
themselves, try to import as many European artifacts as possible, and put
them in museums. Most European countries have museums just as good as the
American ones, or better. Among art museums the Louvre in Paris is hard
to beat. History and culture? Go to British Museum in London. Technical
and science history? The Science Museum in London, of course; there's
also a science museum in Eindhoven, Holland, that is quite good.
Stockholm then? For art, the Modern Museum is a quite good one. For
science history, the National Museum of Natural Science History is a
must; the spirit of Carl von Linne is present in every corner of the
castle-like building, and a recent addition is the hi-tech Omnimax
theatre. In the Historical Museum you can see artifacts from the Vikings,
when America was only known as "Vinland". We also have the
open air museum of Swedish cultural history, "Skansen", the original
"Skansen" which has inspired a number of similar museums all over the
world (I went to Lithuania last summer, and visited their "Skansenis"
outside Kaunas). And finally, of course, the Vasa Museum, with the
only fullsized well-preserved 17th century warship in the world.
You also mentioned concert halls. I won't go into that, but I should
mention that when we don't have concerts, we use them for the Nobel
Prize ceremonies.
Torkel Franzen
edu (Peer Landa) writes:
>Ok, Swedish famous composers worth mention: Sven-David Sandstrom,
>Lars-Gunnar Bodin, Jan W. Morthenson, Hugo Alven, Gunnar Bucht, Per
>Lindgren, Rolf Enstrom...all just out of my head.
These people are no doubt fine composers, but by no stretch of the
imagination can they be called famous.
Tor Slettnes
| Ok, Swedish famous composers worth mention: Sven-David Sandstrom,
| Lars-Gunnar Bodin, Jan W. Morthenson, Hugo Alven, Gunnar Bucht, Per
| Lindgren, Rolf Enstrom...all just out of my head. Due to the lack of
| support for the arts, US will lose badly if comparing number of
| professional composers per capita.
|
| -- peer
Hey guys, watch out for this peer guy! He's got mysterious power..
Immediately after reading his article, I got the following message
on my screen:
*** Login connection reset by peer
Scary stuff..
-tor
Pekka Henttonen
TO>American concept about "culture".. The term "culture" does elsewhere
TO>also deal with behavior, ways of thinking, history, language, social
TO>relationships, etc. etc.. All in all, most European countries have
TO>much more uniqueness when it comes to these aspects than does USA.
Maybe we just don't see what is unique in
American culture because it has in many respects became so familiar to
us. What sometimes used to be American is now common (not all of course)
to all Western countries and we do not anymore recognize it as
"national" and something "unique".
(The same happened in the late Soviet Union where Russians
lost their charachteristics as a nationality: what was Russian was
suddenly "Soviet" and "international".)
EKWI...@unccvm.uncc.edu
ry...@network.cc.jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>Why GM does not sell in Japan? The Japanese told to me that the
>Americans want to sell stubbornly cars ment _for the right hand traffic_
>in Japan. When they are not bought flies the president
>with a delegation from US to Japan whining about trade barriers:-)
Erin
Erin Winslow
la...@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Lars Hagen ) writes:
>Subject: USA unemployment
>
> I believe the concept to which you're refering has more to
> do with UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE and UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION
> than it does with actual figures. To receive unemployment
> compensation from the government, (as I understand it) you
> must have been terminated or laid off from your job within
> the last six to twelve months in order to receive the
> checks.
>
> The U.S.A. umemployment figures are, I believe, just as in
> the other countries you mention. If you are eligible to
> have a job and do not have one, you are unemployed.
***THIS IS WRONG!!!*** In the U.S. you are only counted as unemployed (i.e.
by the Labor Department) if you are currently receiving unemployment compen-
sation.
If your compensation has ended, if you are only employed part-time (less than
35 hours a week), if you have just graduated from school, if you stayed home
to take care of children or ill relatives and now seek to return to the paid
workforce, you are NOT considered to be unemployed, even if you are currently
seeking full-time work!
By doing this, the U.S. government seeks to fool people into thinking that
the unemployment rate is *much* lower than it is and that there are not so
many people competing for those jobs.
Erin
Jesper Lauridsen
>In <CDI5G...@news.chalmers.se> d0...@dtek.chalmers.se (Marcus Gustavsson) writes:
>>--
>> Chalmers | Rock'n'roll is an outlet for what hurts most
>> University | No money, no women, no alcohol or whatever
>> of | Rock'n'roll is our channel to give vent to our frustrations
>> Technology | Our music comes straight from the heart -Bon Scott
>Interesting that your signature includes a quote about an *AMERICAN* music
>form.
What makes you claim that rock'n'roll is an *AMERICAN* music form?
I could list many influencial artists of European origin.
--
I neither can nor will at this or any other (previous or coming) moment
in time respect anyone or anything wearing a baseball cap and/or a pair
of boxershorts, unless the wearing of these artifacts is an important
part of a contract giving said individuals or creatures an income of more
than 10 times the average for people with similar educational background.
Lars Hagen
>I sometimes get the feeling that Americans, having such a short history
>themselves, try to import as many European artifacts as possible, and put
>them in museums. Most European countries have museums just as good as the
>American ones, or better. Among art museums the Louvre in Paris is hard
>to beat. History and culture? Go to British Museum in London. Technical
>and science history? The Science Museum in London, of course; there's
>also a science museum in Eindhoven, Holland, that is quite good.
I imagine it goes both ways: US Jazz musicians visiting Europe,
artifacts from ancient American Indian cultures going on tours through
European museums. Besides, many of the most famous exhibits in
European museums are not remnants of European culture: Egyptian
artifacts, Chinese artifacts, etc.
This whole discussion of whose culture is superior is really quite
ridiculous. One can quarrel as much as one desires and never really
be able to convince anyone that something as subjective as culture is
better here or there.
ahr...@stacken.kth.se (Ahrvid Engholm) writes:
>theatre. In the Historical Museum you can see artifacts from the Vikings,
>when America was only known as "Vinland". We also have the
The culture you seem to be referring to in discussing American culture
is the one that relates to the US which is only 200+ years old and
hence quite "handicapped" in comparison to most European cultures that
span thousands of years. If you do wish to take into account American
culture you must include the native Indian population both in North
and South America which also prospered for thousands of years.
- Lars
Lars Hagen
attributes to me was actually written by Ruth Sylte. I posted what
she sent me through e-mail. What I had originally written was an
assertion similar to Erin's, albeit with far less confidence. :-)
- Lars
Kevin Cordell
Subject: Re: NODRIC arrogance (was Swedish arrogance)
Summary:
Expires:
References: <1993Sep13....@abo.fi> <BBRETON.93...@eyeball.lehman.com> <1993Sep15....@news.uit.no>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Keywords:
In article <1993Sep15....@news.uit.no> knu...@babbage.hsn.no (Knut Fjellheim) writes:
>
>In article <BBRETON.93...@eyeball.lehman.com>,
>bbr...@eyeball.lehman.com (Bernard Breton) writes:
>
>|>Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily,
>|>technologically, and
>|>culturally.
>
>Military, Yes. But what is so great about that? What has the US done to
>promote peace? Fighting Iraq? That was only economical reasons (oil) and
>way for Bush to get reelected (and he failed, I am glad to say). I
>suppose you wouldn't like to discuss central-America.
I wondered why our troops were over there too. I think that all US
troops should be brought back home, including the ones in Korea and
Somolia. Maybe we should let those countries fight it out amongst themselves.
>|>We are constantly being asked to bring thruth, justice and the
>|>American way to all parts
>|>of the world.
I think that we have been watching too much Superman.
>
>Wrong! We have never asked you to do anything.You have some crazy 'Dirty
>Harry is my hero' mentality. The US is _NOT_ the police of the world.
>You should really get out of Somalia. You have completely screwed up all
>humanitarian work in that country, not to mention throwing dirt on the
>reputation of the UN and its soldiers. It was the US who came up with
>the mentally ill idea that the UN should create peace by conducting war!
I think that out troops should get out of Somolia too. I can't argue
with you about the UN policies, as I do not bother with keeping up on
those. Personally I think that the UN would go the way of the League
of Nations were it not for all the support given by the U.S.
>No sane mind could ever come up with a policy like that! When will
>americans learn the lesson that europe has learned: Peace is created by
>understanding your enemy, by talking with your enemy, by negotiations,
>and not with a gun in your hand.
Would you remind those people in Bosnia about that? They are making
tremendous progress talking aren't they.. It is good to see how they
have not used weapons to air their differences and all get along.
>
>I lived int he US for 4 years, and I have to say that a great deal of
>americans are out of touch with reallity. I do not wish to stereotype
>americans, I do have a number of friends in the US, and there are also a
>lot of aware americans. Neither would I say that Norway is void of
>airheads, but on the average the US is in more trouble than any other
>country I know of.
>
>The peace creating archetype are "Dirty Harry","Rambo", etc. Blow the
>bad guys away! Peace is created by violence! Amen!
You already have stereotyped us.
>|>That is narrow minded as Americans thinking that all Sweedish girls
>|>are Blond-haired
>|>big chested beauties who prance around with very little clothes on.
This is not TRUE!! awe, now my whole image of Sweden is blown!
(just kidding)
>
>Americans do eat junk-food all the time! You can go to any MacDonalds,
>Carl's Junior, Kentucky Fried, Poppeys, Burger King, Taco Bell (and
>numerous other junk-food resturants) and you will have to wait in line.
>Go to any mall and you _will_ find junk food. My friends would take one
>look at the university cafeteria food, say "yack", and drive to MacD's.
>I also used to work with some girls during the summer, and guess what
>they did during lunch? They watched "Santa Barbra" (Soap)on TV! An what
>about the guys? Football + basketball + baseball on TV! And what did
>everybody do when they did not watch TV? They took off to some party
>somewhere organized by someone they never had heard of.
That is a pretty good description of college life in the U.S.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: NODRIC arrogance (was Swedish arrogance)
Summary:
Expires:
References: <1993Sep13....@abo.fi> <BBRETON.93...@eyeball.lehman.com> <1993Sep15....@news.uit.no>
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Keywords:
In article <1993Sep15....@news.uit.no> knu...@babbage.hsn.no (Knut Fjellheim) writes:
>
>In article <BBRETON.93...@eyeball.lehman.com>,
>bbr...@eyeball.lehman.com (Bernard Breton) writes:
>
>|>Please relecall that the USA is the strongest country militarily,
>|>technologically, and
>|>culturally.
>
>Military, Yes. But what is so great about that? What has the US done to
>promote peace? Fighting Iraq? That was only economical reasons (oil) and
>way for Bush to get reelected (and he failed, I am glad to say). I
>suppose you wouldn't like to discuss central-America.
I wondered why our troops were over there too. I think that all US
troops should be brought back home, including the ones in Korea and
Somolia. Maybe we should let those countries fight it out amongst themselves.
>|>We are constantly being asked to bring thruth, justice and the
>|>American way to all parts
>|>of the world.
I think that we have been watching too much Superman.
>
>Wrong! We have never asked you to do anything.You have some crazy 'Dirty
>Harry is my hero' mentality. The US is _NOT_ the police of the world.
>You should really get out of Somalia. You have completely screwed up all
>humanitarian work in that country, not to mention throwing dirt on the
>reputation of the UN and its soldiers. It was the US who came up with
>the mentally ill idea that the UN should create peace by conducting war!
I think that out troops should get out of Somolia too. I can't argue
with you about the UN policies, as I do not bother with keeping up on
those. Personally I think that the UN would go the way of the League
of Nations were it not for all the support given by the U.S.
>No sane mind could ever come up with a policy like that! When will
>americans learn the lesson that europe has learned: Peace is created by
>understanding your enemy, by talking with your enemy, by negotiations,
>and not with a gun in your hand.
Would you remind those people in Bosnia about that? They are making
tremendous progress talking aren't they.. It is good to see how they
have not used weapons to air their differences and all get along.
>
>I lived int he US for 4 years, and I have to say that a great deal of
>americans are out of touch with reallity. I do not wish to stereotype
>americans, I do have a number of friends in the US, and there are also a
>lot of aware americans. Neither would I say that Norway is void of
>airheads, but on the average the US is in more trouble than any other
>country I know of.
>
>The peace creating archetype are "Dirty Harry","Rambo", etc. Blow the
>bad guys away! Peace is created by violence! Amen!
You already have stereotyped us.
>|>That is narrow minded as Americans thinking that all Sweedish girls
>|>are Blond-haired
>|>big chested beauties who prance around with very little clothes on.
This is not TRUE!! awe, now my whole image of Sweden is blown!
(just kidding)
>
>Americans do eat junk-food all the time! You can go to any MacDonalds,
>Carl's Junior, Kentucky Fried, Poppeys, Burger King, Taco Bell (and
>numerous other junk-food resturants) and you will have to wait in line.
>Go to any mall and you _will_ find junk food. My friends would take one
>look at the university cafeteria food, say "yack", and drive to MacD's.
>I also used to work with some girls during the summer, and guess what
>they did during lunch? They watched "Santa Barbra" (Soap)on TV! An what
>about the guys? Football + basketball + baseball on TV! And what did
>everybody do when they did not watch TV? They took off to some party
>somewhere organized by someone they never had heard of.
That is a pretty good description of college life in the U.S.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin J. Cordell Internet: Cord...@ucunix.san.uc.edu
University of Cincinnati Voice: 1 513-542-5555 (8-5 EST)
Cincinnati, Ohio 45221
Peer Landa
Susan F Bradley writes:
"Toni Morrison & T. Coraghessan Boyle - contemporary American
authors. Perhaps not published in Sweden.
Aaron Copeland, composer. As for Dr. Alban & Europe - who or what
are they? As for ABBA & Roxette - they are famous for performing an
AMERICAN music form - in English, no less.
Name me a few famous Swedish composers."
Peer Landa writes:
"Ok, Swedish famous composers worth mention: Sven-David Sandstrom,
Lars-Gunnar Bodin, Jan W. Morthenson, Hugo Alven, Gunnar Bucht, Per
Lindgren, Rolf Enstrom...all just out of my head. Due to the lack of
support for the arts, US will lose badly if comparing number of
professional composers per capita."
Torkel Franzen writes:
"These people are no doubt fine composers, but by no stretch of the
imagination can they be called famous."
Err . . I sincerely hope that you Torkel are not THAT easy of a
prey..or maybe you think it's correct to compare the fame of M
Jackson with Swedish composers of contemporary music? When I listed
those (actually famous) Swedish composers, I expected that they would
be compared to American composers of the same caliber.
-- peer
Peer Landa
Tor Slettnes writes:
"Hey guys, watch out for this peer guy! He's got mysterious power..
Immediately after reading his article, I got the following message on
my screen:
*** Login connection reset by peer
Scary stuff.. "
Hey, you punk . . of course you have to unveil my procedures as soon
it start to get fun. Now you're forcing me to go back to the costly
old fashion hit-man contracting.
-- peer
Tor Slettnes
cord...@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Kevin Cordell) writes:
I think that out troops should get out of Somolia too. I can't argue
with you about the UN policies, as I do not bother with keeping up on
those. Personally I think that the UN would go the way of the League
of Nations were it not for all the support given by the U.S.
Yeah right "Either do it our way or we don't want to participate at
all!" Of course it is important that the US, as other countries,
support the UN if we want the organization to have any real power!
I know it is a strange concept for the US to cooperate peacefully with
other nations rather than dictate them, but since America takes an
important role in terms of trade, self-appointed "world police"
functions, cultural exchange (ok the US DOES have SOME culture too)
etc. it should also be an obligation for you to participate when it
comes to cooperating about political decisions. This means giving up a
few points (just like other nations); but it also means that you will
earn greater respect in the rest of the world.
(I take it you have opened your eyes enough to realize that currently,
the US does not earn very much respect abroad when it comes to these
points).
Don Kim
NODRIC seems to rhyme with the name of Ivanhoe's father (he was arrogant in some ways)
Henrik Jonsson
>Oh, I'm sorry but I just can't read this one without comment. All of you
>Euro-snobs who keep harping that fast food is the only culture the US has
>are nothing more than pig-ignorant jerks. Read some Toni Morrison or T.
>Coraghessan Boyle. Take a look at some Jackson Pollock or Georgia O'Keefe.
>Listen to some Copeland or Gershwin. Whether you like to admit it or not -
>American "pop" culture sells well in the rest of the world because you're all
>just as shallow and crass as we are.
American Pop-culture sells very well all over the world among teenagers.
Then the people matures and discover that there's more to the world than
burgers and beachparties. But I shouldn't be shallow and crass but admit
that Bukowski sure is a great author.
The word Euro-snobs is also intresting but not as intresting as 'pig-ignorant'
but I'm in no mood to discuss that now...
But I must say that there are some good culture in US as well. But if I
keep saying this I'm gonna lose some face, right? :-) (never forget the
smiley when making a joke on the net...)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
d1...@dtek.chalmers.se | The thoughts expressed here are not my own |
| but the thoughts of Hrli The Great, Emperor|
'Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever!'| of the Nghurthg Empire, 20 MParsecs away...|
Henrik Jonsson
>I'm sorry, but you're wrong. If I say, "Norwegian culture is nothing but
>lutefisk and sweaters." or "Swedish culture is nothing but rotten herring
>and Dala horses." am I presenting a valid criticism of these cultures?
>Would I even be demonstrating enough knowledge of those cultures to entitle
>me to an opinion? Most definitely not. Likewise, saying that American
>culture is nothing but hamburgers and blue jeans shows only a lack of
>knowledge of American culture. Shallowness, in other words. You are guilty
>of the very thing you claim to criticize Americans for.
>Interesting that your signature includes a quote about an *AMERICAN* music
>form.
Please compare the rate of the occuring things. The rate of peole eating
'rotten herring' every day and looking at 'Dala horses' is NOT even close
to the rate of people eating burgers and wearing jeans, right?
But this really is silly since if you gather approx 240 million people in
one country, statistically some of them must have some 'higher' culture.
And about the 'american' part of AC/DC... Well, a country blaming rock'n'roll
groups for the suicide of youngsters, serial killers and such are not a very
bright country in my opinion.
Henrik Jonsson
>Toni Morrison & T. Coraghessan Boyle - contemporary American authors. Perhaps
>not published in Sweden.
>Aaron Copeland, composer.
>As for Dr. Alban & Europe - who or what are they? As for ABBA & Roxette -
Out there in the real world, where new things happen and people can improve
their knowledge about new things, you may learn that Dr. Alban is a quite
famous rap-artist and Europe unfortionately a very americanized Heavy Metal
group.
>they are famous for performing an AMERICAN music form - in English, no less.
How to sell records is an anglo-saxon dominated world without singing in
English?
And Rock'n'Roll started in America, very right.
Based on the works of black cottonpickers in the US south.
The blacks came form Africa from where much of their culture came from.
More imported culture.
>Name me a few famous Swedish composers.
You just did, my dear Susan. But you might be to posh to think of rock-
musicians as 'composers'. Per Gessle (50% of Roxette) and Bj|rn & Benny
(the composers of ABBA) are composers. But the word composers only apply
on people that are 1: Dead and 2: enjoyed by Upper Class twits in suits-
n-ties in flashy Operahouses, right???
I do enjoy much 'classical' music but I find much more truth in an
Australian/English based rocknroll band like AC/DC.
(To try to answer your question: Behrwald is a quite famous Swedish composer
but since he doesn't get much time in the NY he's unknown to the Culture
Club in the US.)
I guess I'd be seing you...
Torkel Franzen
In article <1993Sep18.2...@leland.Stanford.EDU> pe...@ccrma.stanford.
edu (Peer Landa) writes:
>Err . . I sincerely hope that you Torkel are not THAT easy of a
>prey..or maybe you think it's correct to compare the fame of M
>Jackson with Swedish composers of contemporary music?
"Famous" is a relative term to be sure - hence the expression "world
famous all over Sweden". However, the names you mention are known even
here - with the exception of Alfven - only to people who take an
interest in modern composers. In view of the relativity of the term,
you may of course call them "famous" if you like, but my comparison -
in which I made no reference to M Jackson - stands: there is no
Swedish Grieg, no Swedish Sibelius, no Swedish Nielsen.
Terre de la Joie
>Ok, Swedish famous composers worth mention: Sven-David Sandstrom,
>Lars-Gunnar Bodin, Jan W. Morthenson, Hugo Alven, Gunnar Bucht, Per
>Lindgren, Rolf Enstrom...all just out of my head.
Well, this IS getting silly, but your idea of "famous" is perhaps a bit
flexible? I've never heard of any of these gentlemen, and although classi-
cal music (which, I guess, they represent) is not one of my main interests,
I'm not completely ignorant of it either. I think it's quite fair to say
that there aren't any internationally well-known Swedish composers, unless
you count Bellman as such. Not that it makes a hell of a difference, really.
--
Antti Lahelma | m...@saha.hut.fi | GNOTHI SEAUTON
Lehtotie 3 -O- gil...@pcuf.fi -*- ====== =======
00630 HELSINKI | <<Jumalat ovat pakanoille suosiollisia>> | TUNNE ITSESI
Lars Hagen
>I know it is a strange concept for the US to cooperate peacefully with
>other nations rather than dictate them, but since America takes an
>important role in terms of trade, self-appointed "world police"
>functions, cultural exchange (ok the US DOES have SOME culture too)
>etc. it should also be an obligation for you to participate when it
>comes to cooperating about political decisions. This means giving up a
>few points (just like other nations); but it also means that you will
>earn greater respect in the rest of the world.
The notion of the US earning greater respect in the world is indeed an
interesting one. There is probably no other nation in the world that
achieves as many "suggestions" on how it should run its internal and
external policies and I think it is quite clear that no matter what
the US did it could not make everyone happy.
Whether or not the persons in control of US policy actually heed any
of the "suggestions" or even have a desire to please non-US citizens
is an entirely different matter. However, it should be very clear
that almost no matter what the US does, it will always be "wrong".
- Lars
Lars Hagen
>Please compare the rate of the occuring things. The rate of peole eating
>'rotten herring' every day and looking at 'Dala horses' is NOT even close
>to the rate of people eating burgers and wearing jeans, right?
You mean Swedes eat that much more 'rotten herring'. :-)
d1...@dtek.chalmers.se (Henrik Jonsson) writes:
>And about the 'american' part of AC/DC... Well, a country blaming rock'n'roll
>groups for the suicide of youngsters, serial killers and such are not a very
>bright country in my opinion.
Wow, I was completely unaware that the US has officially blamed AC/DC
for the suicide of its youngsters. The news media over here must
really be censoring the news lately, to not even be presenting
official US policy.
Last I heard, these kind of lawsuits were being pressed by
conservative religious groups and that the bands had not lost a single
case yet.
- Lars
Lars Hagen
>You just did, my dear Susan. But you might be to posh to think of rock-
>musicians as 'composers'. Per Gessle (50% of Roxette) and Bj|rn & Benny
>(the composers of ABBA) are composers. But the word composers only apply
>on people that are 1: Dead and 2: enjoyed by Upper Class twits in suits-
>n-ties in flashy Operahouses, right???
You are all too impatient Henrik. As soon as Per, Bjoern and Benny
die they will become 'composers' and we will all be wearing suits and
ties in flashy operahouses presenting musicals based on their music. :-)
It's already starting to happen for Bjoern and Benny with "Chess".
- Lars
Richard Wavle
Richard Wavle
-> fast food places does not make you culturally aware..) **FLAME OFF***
Hello,
I cannot believe my eyes! Did Mickey D's just get shot down? Loooj,
Look, mess with our women, hate us Take or steal all but nobody
shoots down Mickey D's. Is nothing sacred to a undisiplined
barbarian such as yourself, or is it you would rather
be counting Mickey D's money instead of that silly clown.
Richard
Richard Wavle
Just as a point of referance, Mc Donolds has served over 34 billion
burgers at about 2.00 $2.50 each, not to mention the rest,such
as fries, pie milk shakes ect. Can you figure high enough to
estimate the tax on the money that place will earn. I think
Iceland did and liked the final estimates. Also young workers
also means some employment for teenagers and as you socialist
countries like, also means some new people to tax and take
away their worked for mmoney. As for saveing the world,
Think deeply. We save it everyday by not destroying it.
To say that is not obstinent because we can do it. We
do not even think of any such thing as horrible as that
would be, bur who, in 15 minutes is go..ing .. s
would be but who in 15 minutes is going to stop us except
God himappen? As I said, to horrible to even
be thought of, but you did ask, did you not?
Richard
-> US is just like the Marvel Comic Heroes, right? Even though they are
-> being misunderstood they save the world, over and over again...
Richard Wavle
-> contain bowling alleys, Drive-In movies, Burger-restaurants, flashy
-> Broadway-musicals,
Hello again,
Show me some culture of yours that does not include occupation,
some stuffy 200 year old museam with misdated bones in
it or streets that are far to narrow and stuffy shirted
population that thinks they are better than anyone else.
Enough of your nonsense. You admit to the American things!
How do you think they got that way? It is because of our
history and the way we are whether you like it or not.
Thanks for the credit for WW@. I will take that tidbit to
the bank and ask what it is worth in relation to all
we really gave and lost and watch the bankers laugh.
Richard
Henrik Jonsson
>>Please compare the rate of the occuring things. The rate of peole eating
>>'rotten herring' every day and looking at 'Dala horses' is NOT even close
>>to the rate of people eating burgers and wearing jeans, right?
>You mean Swedes eat that much more 'rotten herring'. :-)
Yep!
>Wow, I was completely unaware that the US has officially blamed AC/DC
>for the suicide of its youngsters. The news media over here must
>really be censoring the news lately, to not even be presenting
>official US policy.
Not very well put of me, right?
My intention was not to flame US as a country but to point out that IN the
US there are quite a lot of these stupid people. A nation (sadly, sometimes)
consists of it's inhabitants, right? If there are a rather big amount of
people behaving like lunatics one might get the impression the country
is strange to. But *all* americans aren't that stupid, so I guess that
the US isn't 100% weird...:)
>Last I heard, these kind of lawsuits were being pressed by
>conservative religious groups and that the bands had not lost a single
>case yet.
Thank god! The day they do I'll lose all my hope for the great country in the
west...
Henrik Jonsson
>You are all too impatient Henrik. As soon as Per, Bjoern and Benny
>die they will become 'composers' and we will all be wearing suits and
>ties in flashy operahouses presenting musicals based on their music. :-)
Oh my God.
'The future is so dark, I'll have to remove my sunglasses' :)
Espen J. Vestre
st...@rabbit.augs.se writes:
> In article <BBRETON.93...@mf7718.lehman.com>
bbr...@mf7718.lehman.com
> (Bernard Breton) writes:
>
> > In my defense, I never said that Americans want to change the world
into
> > a big America. Rather, it seems that plenty of people in the rest of
the
> > world want to be more like america.
>
> That is an interesting statement, can you show us anything
^^^^^^^^
> that supports it or is it just your personal opinion?
>
Maybe you should rather use a swedish guide if you want to do sighseeing
on the swedish countryside?
Espen ;-)
Jonas Flygare
In article <d1hej.7...@dtek.chalmers.se> d1...@dtek.chalmers.se (Henrik Jonsson) writes:
>Enlighten me, please!
>
>Show me some example on GREAT AMERICAN CULTURE, which doesn't contain
>bowling alleys, Drive-In movies, Burger-restaurants, flashy Broadway-musicals,
>chewing-gum and silly Hollywood-comedies.
>
>Thank you for being so patient.
My pleasure:
The GREAT AMERICAN (USian) CULTURE, includes some of the most
fantastic museums in the world like the Metropolitan Museum in New York,
the Art Institute of Chicago, and great Opera and Symphony houses like
the Metropolitan Opera in NY, the San Francisco Opera (which I will be
attending soon :) ) and dozens of other great music halls and museums.
In the Nordic countries you have to travel more than the average muslim
to be able to find world art or great concerts.
Actually, no. It's a longer drive across the US to get to the Met, than getting to
a capital with a good museum in Europe. Look at a map. :)
This place gathers a lot of the Best and the Brightest... Leif Ove
Andsnes (sp) and Arve Tellefsen (sp) will be here in a few months! I'll
try to meet them after their concerts and discuss what we talk about in
this newsgroup... :)
[Below is more of a general comment]
Culturebashing aside, it seems a lot of people focus on the fact that the
US is some 200 years old. That does not mean it's culture is. The immigrants
brought a lot of songs and habits with them from Europe.
Now, if anyone wants to define culture' as artifacts on display on a
museum, so be it. I think it's far more deep as well as dynamic
than that.
Culture is a flow, defined by those who use it. It's not culture when I
buy a pair of blue jeans, but the blue jeans are part of our culture.
By the same token, Roxette is a part of the contemporary american
culture, since they have a place in it. Discussing who have more or better
culture is like trying to decide who have better or more soul.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, + Pain is just
Wherever I go + weakness leaving
There I am... + your body. /Unknown