New Zealandish? New Zealandese? New Zealandian?
Sue Flesch
wrote:
>What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'? If they
>are from Germany they are German, France French, China Chinese, etc. I have
>been searching for a way of applying the same to New Zealand, but New
>Zealandish? New Zealandese? New Zealandian? It is all so clumsy. Any
>solutions out there?
>
>Perhaps Aotearoan? Now that would work...
Whats wrong with "New Zealander/s?"
Sue Flesch, Nelson, New Zealand
Simon
are from Germany they are German, France French, China Chinese, etc. I have
been searching for a way of applying the same to New Zealand, but New
Zealandish? New Zealandese? New Zealandian? It is all so clumsy. Any
solutions out there?
Perhaps Aotearoan? Now that would work...
--
Simon Pleasants
Lyndon Watson
"Simon" <sim...@clear.net.nz> writes:
> What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'? If they
> are from Germany they are German, France French, China Chinese, etc. I have
> been searching for a way of applying the same to New Zealand, but New
> Zealandish? New Zealandese? New Zealandian? It is all so clumsy. Any
> solutions out there?
No. It's a problem. That's why we end up with the horrible "Kiwi" as
a substitute.
... Now the Czechs have the opposite problem - they have a name and an
adjective for themselves, but they have no name for their country.
> Perhaps Aotearoan? Now that would work...
Indeed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyndon Watson deslash L.Watson/@/csc/./canterbury/./ac/./nz
------------------------------------------------------------------------
postmaster@localhost,abuse@localhost,ro...@mailloop.com
cat/dev/zero/tmp/...`@localhost,halt@localhost
alliance
Simon wrote in message <71aqad$sek$1...@fep5.clear.net.nz>...
>What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'? If they
>are from Germany they are German, France French, China Chinese, etc. I have
>been searching for a way of applying the same to New Zealand, but New
>Zealandish? New Zealandese? New Zealandian? It is all so clumsy. Any
>solutions out there?
>
>Perhaps Aotearoan? Now that would work...
>
>
>
>--
>Simon Pleasants
>
>
Lyndon Watson
> What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'?
and "alliance" <alli...@voyager.co.nz> replied
> NEW ZEALANDER
Is this what the education system has come to? People who have no idea
of the difference between an adjective and a noun, people who would say,
for example, "a New Zealander man"?
jkw...@cableinet.co.uk
Lyndon Watson wrote in message ...
they
>> are from Germany they are German, France French, China Chinese, etc. I
have
>> been searching for a way of applying the same to New Zealand, but New
>> Zealandish? New Zealandese? New Zealandian? It is all so clumsy. Any
>> solutions out there?
>
>a substitute.
>
>... Now the Czechs have the opposite problem - they have a name and an
>adjective for themselves, but they have no name for their country.
Bohemia-Moravia?
Brian Berkeley-White
DaRkSpAwN wrote in message <
>You could say "I am a New Zealander" or " I am a New Zealand Male"
>
>If you said "I am a New Zealand" you would sound like a twat ;)
>
Francophones have the answer. For them it's simply néo zélandais (-aise
when referring to women).
Brian
Noeline McCaughan
: Simon wrote in message <71aqad$sek$1...@fep5.clear.net.nz>...
: > What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'?
: and "alliance" <alli...@voyager.co.nz> replied
: > NEW ZEALANDER
: Is this what the education system has come to? People who have no idea
: of the difference between an adjective and a noun, people who would say,
: for example, "a New Zealander man"?
Perhaps we could enquire of the residents of Zealand as to what term they
apply to themselves? We could then appropriate that term and as residents of New
Zealand use it to describe ourselves to others.
Me? I just say I'm from New Zealand or that I am a New Zealander and this
thing or items I have with me are products from New Zealand. No bother, no
problem.
I *never* use the term "Kiwi" to denote my nationality, I feel it's slightly
ridiculous and highly inappropriate to use the name of the secretive, nocturnal
and rarely seen Apteryx to indicate to others my country of origin. I am
willing to bet that 99.5% of people in this country have never seen a live
wild Kiwi, I have heard them but have yet to see one, in spite of being more
in a position to do so during my lifetime than the average citizen of this
land.
Now if you *have* to use a birds name what about the Kea? It is an "in your
face" noisy, colourful and eccentric alpine parrot that makes itself known in
the mountain areas frequented by holiday makers. I feel it is more appropriate
to use this as a symbol of our nationality and when I come back in a future
life I'll be found gleefully sliding down the iron roofs at Arthurs Pass or
happily dragging the stuffing out of someones sleeping bag as it airs over a
branch in the headwaters of the Taramakau river.
Noeline.
Noeline.
Jonathan Stone
|> Lyndon Watson wrote:
|> >
|> > Simon wrote in message <71aqad$sek$1...@fep5.clear.net.nz>...
|> > > What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'?
|> >
|> > and "alliance" <alli...@voyager.co.nz> replied
|> > > NEW ZEALANDER
|> >
|> > Is this what the education system has come to? People who have no idea
|> > of the difference between an adjective and a noun, people who would say,
|> > for example, "a New Zealander man"?
Perhaps lyndon could illuminate us with the purely grammatical
distinctions which give rise to (for example) the usages
``new zealand male'' not ``new zealander male''
``australian male'' not ``australia male''
:)
I wonder how deep in the bush you'd have to be living since, oh, the
1950s, at least, to not realise that such formal grammar isnt taught
anymore. even in the 70s it caused difficulties for high-school
students taking ``traditional'' [non-audiolingual] non-english
language classes.
if that was rhetorical outrage, it didnt work:)
|> You could say "I am a New Zealander" or " I am a New Zealand Male"
|>
|> If you said "I am a New Zealand" you would sound like a twat ;)
quite so. that'd makes life hard for pedantic tight-arses, wouldnt it?
DaRkSpAwN
>
> Simon wrote in message <71aqad$sek$1...@fep5.clear.net.nz>...
> > What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'?
>
> and "alliance" <alli...@voyager.co.nz> replied
> > NEW ZEALANDER
>
> Is this what the education system has come to? People who have no idea
> of the difference between an adjective and a noun, people who would say,
> for example, "a New Zealander man"?
>
You could say "I am a New Zealander" or " I am a New Zealand Male"
If you said "I am a New Zealand" you would sound like a twat ;)
hehehe
Dave Joll
>Lyndon Watson wrote in message ...
>>... Now the Czechs have the opposite problem - they have a name and an
>>adjective for themselves, but they have no name for their country.
>Bohemia-Moravia?
That, in its German form (Bohmen und Mahren) or Czech
form (Cechy a Morava) were what the country was called
during the German occupation, 1938 - 1945, and it is my
understanding that the inhabitants are justifiably reluctant
to go back to that nomenclature!
(Umlauts and assorted accents left off so that people with
older software can read this...)
Regards
Dave Joll
Peter Metcalfe
On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Dave Joll wrote:
> jkw...@cableinet.co.uk wrote
> >Lyndon Watson wrote in message ...
> >>... Now the Czechs have the opposite problem - they have a name and an
> >>adjective for themselves, but they have no name for their country.
> >Bohemia-Moravia?
> That, in its German form (Bohmen und Mahren) or Czech
> form (Cechy a Morava) were what the country was called
> during the German occupation, 1938 - 1945, and it is my
> understanding that the inhabitants are justifiably reluctant
> to go back to that nomenclature!
From what I have heard, Czechia or Czechland is perfectly acceptable
in Czechia. The Germans don't like to use this form because the
germanified form, Tczecko (sp?), reminds them of the occupation. Well
sod them, say I. I refuse to use such abortions such as the czech
republic.
--Peter Metcalfe
David Springthorpe
Seriously 'though, I would use "New Zealand" as an adjective,
e.g. "Some people claim the New Zealand economy is is trouble....."
--
David Springthorpe
Noeline McCaughan wrote in message ...
><snip>.....I am willing to bet that 99.5% of people in this country
have never seen a live
>wild Kiwi, I have heard them but have yet to see one, in spite of
being more
>in a position to do so during my lifetime than the average citizen of
this
>land.
><snip>
Antony Mossop
> DaRkSpAwN wrote in message <
> >You could say "I am a New Zealander" or " I am a New Zealand Male"
> >
> >If you said "I am a New Zealand" you would sound like a twat ;)
> >
> Francophones have the answer. For them it's simply néo zélandais (-aise
> when referring to women).
>
> Brian
\delurk
Mais non! It's nouvelle zélande.
cheers
Tony
\lurk
Nicola
>
> From what I have heard, Czechia or Czechland is perfectly
acceptable
> in Czechia. The Germans don't like to use this form because
the
> germanified form, Tczecko (sp?), reminds them of the
occupation. Well
> sod them, say I. I refuse to use such abortions such as the
czech
> republic.
You hear both "Tschechien" and "die Tschechei"; I've forgotten
which is associated with the occupation, but I think it's
Tschechien. I think "die Tschechei" started being used because
it was closer to "die Tschechoslowakei".
Nicola
Nicola
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
So come on by and visit the Library of Congress.
We're a lot more fun than most people realize.
Antony Mossop <mos...@ipgp.jussieu.fr> wrote in article
<363C6D7A...@ipgp.jussieu.fr>...
> Brian Berkeley-White wrote:
> > DaRkSpAwN wrote in message <
> > >You could say "I am a New Zealander" or " I am a New
Zealand Male"
> > >If you said "I am a New Zealand" you would sound like a
twat ;)
> > >
> > Francophones have the answer. For them it's simply néo
zélandais (-aise
> > when referring to women).
> \delurk
> Mais non! It's nouvelle zélande.
Mais non, non, non! "Je suis nouvelle zélande" went out with the
Sun King.
Nicola
Simon
Brian Berkeley-White wrote in message ...
(snip)
>Francophones have the answer. For them it's simply néo zélandais (-aise
>when referring to women).
But that sounds like a salad dressing....
Simon
Jonathan Stone wrote in message <71g30m$cnq$2...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>...
>I wonder how deep in the bush you'd have to be living since, oh, the
>1950s, at least, to not realise that such formal grammar isnt taught
>anymore.
At the risk of being a tight-arse, do you know what a split infinitive is?
Sorry to end a sentence with a preposition... ;^)
Brian Berkeley-White
Antony Mossop wrote in message <
>Mais non! It's nouvelle zélande.
>
French/English dictionary. Or alternatively, accept my word for it as a
qualified teacher of French :-)
B.
Jonathan Stone
Oh, indeed. A split infinitive is something up with which we shall not put.
but i boldly split infinitives which no-one had split before to make a point:
``the subtleties and nuances of a langauge cannot be encodified by the
dry, academic grammarian; they must be learnt from the living users
thereof.''
[[sic -- dont have the reference anymore, sorry.]]
Jonathan Stone
|> And "1950s, at least" is nonsense. Formal grammer was taught in our
|> high schools in the 1960s.
Right, but I was wondering how long one would have to have been out of
touch... The gramamarians I had in high school were indeed bemoaning
the decline in standard since the 50s. Vital distinctions like gerunds
versus gerundives were being thrown heedlessly to the wind.
then again, perhaps my sources were exaggerating...
Lyndon Watson
jona...@Cup.DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone) writes:
> DaRkSpAwN <doc...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Lyndon Watson wrote:
>>>> Simon wrote in message <71aqad$sek$1...@fep5.clear.net.nz>...
>>>>> What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'?
>>> Is this what the education system has come to? People who have no idea
>>> of the difference between an adjective and a noun, people who would say,
>>> for example, "a New Zealander man"?
>
> distinctions which give rise to (for example) the usages
> ``new zealand male'' not ``new zealander male''
"New Zealander" has a suffix which explicitly marks it as a noun; "New
Zealand" does not, and so is forced into service as an adjective.
> ``australian male'' not ``australia male''
"Australian", on the other hand, is an explicitly adjectival form and
"Australia" has not come under the same pressure.
> I wonder how deep in the bush you'd have to be living since, oh, the
> 1950s, at least, to not realise that such formal grammar isnt taught
> anymore. even in the 70s it caused difficulties for high-school
> students taking ``traditional'' [non-audiolingual] non-english
> language classes.
No one should need to be taught formal grammar in order to know that
"New Zealander" cannot be substituted for the adjectival "of New
Zealand", as Simon asked.
And "1950s, at least" is nonsense. Formal grammer was taught in our
high schools in the 1960s.
>> If you said "I am a New Zealand" you would sound like a twat ;)
Exactly, just as you would if you said "I am a New Zealander man".
Brian Harmer
(Lyndon Watson) wrote:
>And "1950s, at least" is nonsense. Formal grammer was taught in our
>high schools in the 1960s.
Absolutely correct
--
Brian Harmer
http://www.vuw.ac.nz/~bharmer/
I may not be disgruntled but I am far from gruntled
P G Wodehouse
Peter Metcalfe
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Brian Harmer wrote:
> On 2 Nov 98 11:14:57 +1300 (NEW ZEALAND DAYLIGHT TIME), Rat...@address.in.sig
> (Lyndon Watson) wrote:
> >And "1950s, at least" is nonsense. Formal grammer was taught in our
> >high schools in the 1960s.
> Absolutely correct
But not, it seems, proper punctuation.
--Peter Metcalfe
Jonathan Stone
|> jona...@Cup.DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone) writes:
|> > DaRkSpAwN <doc...@hotmail.com> writes:
|> >> Lyndon Watson wrote:
|> >>> "alliance" <alli...@voyager.co.nz> wrote
|> >>>> Simon wrote in message <71aqad$sek$1...@fep5.clear.net.nz>...
|> >>>>> What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'?
|> >>>> NEW ZEALANDER
|> >>> Is this what the education system has come to? People who have no idea
|> >>> of the difference between an adjective and a noun, people who would say,
|> >>> for example, "a New Zealander man"?
|> >
|> > Perhaps lyndon could illuminate us with the purely grammatical
|> > distinctions which give rise to (for example) the usages
|> > ``new zealand male'' not ``new zealander male''
|>
|> "New Zealander" has a suffix which explicitly marks it as a noun; "New
|> Zealand" does not, and so is forced into service as an adjective.
[snip]
|> > ``australian male'' not ``australia male''
|>
|> "Australian", on the other hand, is an explicitly adjectival form and
|> "Australia" has not come under the same pressure.
No, Lyndon. You missed my point. Please give us the _grammatical_
reasons why the floowing common and accepted usages are
(for example)
``American male''
``British male''
``Austrasian male''
``South African male'
``Fijian male''
But with (or perhaps within:-) ) New Zealand its
``New Zealand male''.
Note: "New Zealand male", not "New Zealander male".
Read for comprehension, or something.
(NB: talking about "pressure" is not a _grammatical_ explanation, in
the sense the word "grammar" has been used in this thread.)
Antony Mossop
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> So come on by and visit the Library of Congress.
> We're a lot more fun than most people realize.
>
> Antony Mossop <mos...@ipgp.jussieu.fr> wrote in article
> <363C6D7A...@ipgp.jussieu.fr>...
> > Brian Berkeley-White wrote:
> > > DaRkSpAwN wrote in message <
> > > >You could say "I am a New Zealander" or " I am a New
> Zealand Male"
>
> > > >If you said "I am a New Zealand" you would sound like a
> twat ;)
> > > >
> > > Francophones have the answer. For them it's simply néo
> zélandais (-aise
> > > when referring to women).
>
> > \delurk
> > Mais non! It's nouvelle zélande.
>
> Mais non, non, non! "Je suis nouvelle zélande" went out with the
> Sun King.
>
Bugger... and I thought my French was coming along a bit. I
standcorrected.
cheers
Tony
Lyndon Watson
<jkw...@cableinet.co.uk> writes:
> Lyndon Watson wrote in message ...
>> ... Now the Czechs have the opposite problem - they have a name and an
>> adjective for themselves, but they have no name for their country.
>
> Bohemia-Moravia?
Or, on historical grounds, just Bohemia. But, for some reson, those
don't seem to be acceptable.
Lyndon Watson
noe...@styx.southern.co.nz (Noeline McCaughan) writes:
> I *never* use the term "Kiwi" to denote my nationality, I feel it's slightly
> ridiculous and highly inappropriate to use the name of the secretive, nocturnal
> willing to bet that 99.5% of people in this country have never seen a live
> wild Kiwi, I have heard them but have yet to see one, in spite of being more
> in a position to do so during my lifetime than the average citizen of this
> land.
I agree and, since in a number of languages "kiwi" now primarily denotes
a small hairy fruit, I don't particularly welcome the associations
either....
> when I come back in a future
> life I'll be found gleefully sliding down the iron roofs at Arthurs Pass or
> happily dragging the stuffing out of someones sleeping bag as it airs over a
> branch in the headwaters of the Taramakau river.
Watch out for those nail-heads gouging strips out of yer bum.
Lyndon Watson
jona...@Cup.DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone) writes:
> Please give us the _grammatical_
> reasons why the floowing common and accepted usages are
> (for example)
>
> ``American male''
> ``British male''
> ``Austrasian male''
> ``South African male'
> ``Fijian male''
>
> But with (or perhaps within:-) ) New Zealand its
> ``New Zealand male''.
If you think that the absence of an adjectival suffix for the words
"New Zealand" can have a purely "grammatical" explanantion, then I
don't know what you mean by "grammatical". And why don't you just
look it up in a book if you want to know?
> Note: "New Zealand male", not "New Zealander male".
Exactly, the distinction is what this thread is all about.
Nicola
> > Mais non, non, non! "Je suis nouvelle zélande" went out with
the
> > Sun King.
Tony said:
> Bugger... and I thought my French was coming along a bit. I
> standcorrected.
actually, I noticed immediatly after posting (why is it always
*after* posting?) that I'd made an error, too. The definite
article "la" should go in there before NZ, and the N and Z
should be capitals. If we're trying for what Louis would have
said, that is :)
Nicola
(doing far too much proofreading in Gö)
Jonathan Stone
|> In article <71it5a$dl1$6...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>,
[snip points which Lyndon acknowledges are not explainable
in purely grammatical terms]
|>
|> > Note: "New Zealand male", not "New Zealander male".
|>
|> Exactly, the distinction is what this thread is all about.
Yes. Precisely. And you agree the various usages are not explainable
purely in terms of adjectival suffixes.
So why did you send that flame about poor knowledge of grammar?
Nicola
LYNDON: "New Zealander" has a suffix which explicitly marks it
as a
noun; "New Zealand" does not, and so is forced into service as
an adjective... "Australian", on the other hand, is an
explicitly adjectival form and "Australia" has not come under
the same pressure.
JONATHON: " No, Lyndon. You missed my point. Please give us the
_grammatical_ reasons why the floowing common and accepted
usages are (for example)
>
> ``American male''
> ``British male''
> ``Austrasian male''
> ``South African male'
> ``Fijian male''
>
> But with (or perhaps within:-) ) New Zealand its
> ``New Zealand male''.
> Note: "New Zealand male", not "New Zealander male".
> Read for comprehension, or something.
>
> (NB: talking about "pressure" is not a _grammatical_
explanation, in
> the sense the word "grammar" has been used in this thread.)
I don't actually think Lyndon did miss your point.
You are evidently unhappy with the idea of the nominal and
adjectival forms of a word looking identical. Why *must*
adjectives inflect?. You point to the adjectival forms of the
names of other countries and ask us why they differ from the
nominal form.
Are you looking for a "grammatical explanation" along the lines
of (for examples 1, 3, 4, 5 above) "most nouns which end in -a
take 'n' in the adjectival form" or (for example 2) "British is
the modern form of OE [Bret] + the OE adj. stem [isc]"? The
explanation is (as Lyndon said) that the morphological rules of
English don't always allow you to add on an adjective ending. If
they don't, the nominal form often inflects, as Lyndon said, to
give the adjective.
Nicola
Antony Mossop
Not that I'd be able to tell archaic French from the ingredientson the
back of a cereal box. However, I'd have to agree that there does
seem to be a gaff safety valve built in to the pickiness organ of
many people (...well I mainly notice it in me). Sadly I forget this from
time to time.
cheers
Tony
Lyndon Watson
jona...@Cup.DSG.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Stone) writes:
> And you agree the various usages are not explainable
> purely in terms of adjectival suffixes.
>
> So why did you send that flame about poor knowledge of grammar?
Because the idiot offered "New Zealander" as an answer to Simon's
request for an adjectival form analogous to "Australian", "English",
etc.
Kiwino
Aidan Philip Heerdegen
> I *never* use the term "Kiwi" to denote my nationality, I feel it's
> slightly ridiculous and highly inappropriate to use the name of the
> secretive, nocturnal and rarely seen Apteryx to indicate to others
> my country of origin. I am willing to bet that 99.5% of people in
> this country have never seen a live wild Kiwi, I have heard them but
> have yet to see one, in spite of being more in a position to do so
> during my lifetime than the average citizen of this land.
Why is it important to have seen a *wild* Kiwi? If all NZers had the
notion to try and spot one in the wild I should think they'd scare the
poor buggers to death.
I rather like the idea of having such an unassuming shy wee thing as a
national symbol of sorts. I do rather enjoy teasing the Australians
about their tendency to cull their national symbol.
I also recall my Grandfather telling stories of his experiences in
Africa during World War 2, and they definitely referred to themselves
as Kiwis then. So, the term has some weight of years of usage, and is a
good one IMO. As others have pointed out, the real problem is with the
Fruit Marketing Board in question, which stole the damn name, and so
for the vast bulk of people who have heard the term, Kiwi is a small
brown hairy fruit.
> Now if you *have* to use a birds name what about the Kea? It is an
> "in your face" noisy, colourful and eccentric alpine parrot that
> makes itself known in the mountain areas frequented by holiday
> makers.
Much as I think the Kea is a great bird (I recall reading "Beak of the
Moon" as a wee kiddy and absolutely loving it), it ain't as unique as
the flightless birds of NZ, IMO.
Cheerio
Aidan
rosiedawn...@gmail.com
ets...@bigpond.com
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:28:57 +1300, "Simon" <sim...@clear.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'? If they
> >are from Germany they are German, France French, China Chinese, etc. I have
> >been searching for a way of applying the same to New Zealand, but New
> >Zealandish? New Zealandese? New Zealandian? It is all so clumsy. Any
> >solutions out there?
> >
> >Perhaps Aotearoan? Now that would work...
>
> Whats wrong with "New Zealander/s?"
>
> Sue Flesch, Nelson, New Zealand
They are New Zealanders.
adria...@gmail.com
I'm a New Zealander?
All other races
I'm French
German
Italian etc etc
New Zealander's are stuck with
I'm from NZ
Why not...
I'm New Zealandian
Someone from Hungary is Hungarian
fromtheg...@gmail.com
Barb Knox
> Based on the fact that the English are from England, I would assume that the most correct term would be "The New Zealish"... but also based on how "Zealish" was underlined with red, that may not be it.
--
---------------------------
| BBB b \ Barbara at LivingHistory stop co stop uk
| B B aa rrr b |
| BBB a a r bbb | ,008015L080180,022036,029037
| B B a a r b b | ,047045,L014114L4.
| BBB aa a r bbb |
-----------------------------
lachk...@gmail.com
The people: Icelanders
Adjective: Icelandic
Is New Zealandic an appropriate descriptor?
3357...@gapps.yrdsb.ca
> On Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:28:57 +1300, "Simon" <sim...@clear.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >What are we to say when something or somebody is 'of New Zealand'? If they
> >are from Germany they are German, France French, China Chinese, etc. I have
> >been searching for a way of applying the same to New Zealand, but New
> >Zealandish? New Zealandese? New Zealandian? It is all so clumsy. Any
> >solutions out there?
> >
> >Perhaps Aotearoan? Now that would work...
>
> Whats wrong with "New Zealander/s?"
>
> Sue Flesch, Nelson, New Zealand
IPhone Battery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonym