old people in holland flee from euthanasia
se
holland are trying to flee to germany, because they are
fearing to become victims of the misuse of euthanasia in
their own home country. apparently this sounds like a mere
rumor, but in case this should be true, does anyone know more about it?
Townkraaier
seM...@gmx.at says...
Sounds like a bunch of propagandist crappola. First of all:
Old people don't flee from their home country very well. And
euthanasia is still governed by many rules. We're not out to
rid the country of our bejaarden.
--
--.-- | o
| ,---.. . .,---.|__/ ,---.,---.,---..,---.,---.
| | || | || || \ | ,---|,---|||---'|
` `---'`-'-'` '` `` `---^`---^``---'`
Nantko Schanssema
It's new to me. I read Dutch newspapers, and I'm confident they'd pick
up such a story.
As long as I don't see proper evidence to the contrary, I dismiss it
as a scary story invented by the people who don't like the Dutch
euthanasia law. Especially the bit about Germany hints in that
direction, since the Dutch stance on euthanasia received quite some
flak in German press and politics.
regards,
Nantko
--
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
James Tonsager
"se" <seM...@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:acc1a5be.01122...@posting.google.com...
Karin Spaink
> i heard from the phenomenon that a number of old people in
> holland are trying to flee to germany, because they are
> fearing to become victims of the misuse of euthanasia in
> their own home country.
It's a hoax. Nothing of the kind has been in Dutch newspapers,
nothing of the sort has been put forward on any of the
euthanasia discussions that I witnessed or participated in (and
I have been in a lot of them recently). And you seem to forget
that *only* on concition of one's repeated wish euthanasia may
be performed. It cannot be forced upon you.
On the other hand, many old people *ask* for some kind of power
to end their own life, for instance via the Drion pill - an as
of yet hypothetical fatal medicine that, according to the
proposals of those advocating it, would be given to old people
for them to use when and if they want it.
[Please, no replies or rants from Doug.
He's just a poor paranoid puppy who needs help.]
groet,
Karin Spaink
--
I write, therefore I am:
http://www.spaink.net/
Leo Sanger
artificial means than of deliberately shortening their life.
I'm eternally grateful to my late (Royal) housekeeper who - after witnessing
her own husband's slow death on a life support machine some years earlier -
left specific instructions that she was not to be trested that way. I was then
able to confer her wishes to the senior nurse in charge of such matters.
leo
theo1610
>These days, it's more a case of refusing to keep an old person alive by
>artificial means than of deliberately shortening their life.
??????
>I'm eternally grateful to my late (Royal) housekeeper who - after witnessing
>her own husband's slow death on a life support machine some years earlier -
>left specific instructions that she was not to be trested that way. I was then
>able to confer her wishes to the senior nurse in charge of such matters.
To confer her wishes to the nurse?
That seems okay to me...
>leo
--
Ooit was je goed links als je voor een rechtvaardigere
samenleving streed, tegenwoordig ben je goed links als
je zo'n samenleving weer wilt opofferen. (Noppes)
--
"Lievebeheersbeestjes"
Frank Weaver
In article <acc1a5be.01122...@posting.google.com>,
It's a minor wrinkle on a perennial crock of deceit. Here's an
anecdote, which has floated around talk.euthanasia almost since the
group's inception, that should help to put this canard into perspective.
The Noorsde Balk home, which looks after predominantly competent
elderly people in its 130 beds, has a policy allowing a request
for euthanasia. Yet Mrs. Mauer, a devout Christian, will never
request it. "I had moments when I was very down. I couldn't
move. I couldn't drink. But my husband and children went to
church and they prayed for me. that night in the hospital I was
visited by God and He said, 'What do you do? You cannot work
against my wishes.' So I said, Lord, I will not oppose you
anymore, my life is in your hands, I ask forgiveness. And then I
am not feeling down any more. And I can eat. So God must have a
task for me. I am not sure what, but I can help somehow, I can be
here." Perhaps because she is philosophically opposed to
euthanasia she is one of the rumoured elderly who fear they will
be killed against their will?
Puzzlement creases her eybrows, as if she does not comprehend the
question I am asking. We have been speaking mostly in English
because, as a teacher for more than forty years, her English is
good. She is not sure she has got it right: is she afraid? Of
being killed? She turns to [Dr. Gerrit] Kimsma to have him pose
the question again in Dutch just so she is certain she is not
mistaken. Kimsma obliges, and explains the North American
rumours. As he speaks, she continuously shakes her head,
disbelieving. "Nee, nee, nee, nee" she says. "This is not true."
She says she knows of no one who has said they are afraid -- not
her eighty-seven-year-old husband, not members of her church group
whom she still sees regularly, none of the other residents whom
she speaks with in the nursing home. When I ask Inez Windrich, a
nursing home nurse for 25 years, about fearful elderly residents
the look of utter disbelief is the same. "Is that what people are
saying?" she sighs, seeming vexed. Of the hundreds of patients
she has looked after over the years, only one has requested and
received euthanasia, she says.
-- Anne Mullens, "Timely Death" (Toronto: Alfred A. Knopf Canada,
1996), p. 142-143.
Mullens also investigated where these stories came from.
Dr. Paul van der Maas, the lead author of the Remmelink Report
and the director of the department of public health, Erasmus
University, in Rotterdam, says the rumours of frightened elderly
individuals come from a single newspaper report about a survey
conducted by the Dutch Physicians' League (NAV). "We were
concerned. We asked the [League] for the data, so we could have
a look," van der Maas said. "We found that it was a survey of a
selected group of their own members and that 2 per cent had
responded that they were afraid, not 60 per cent or 90 per cent.
It was a very unscientific study." [Mullens, p. 145]
Geez, that's an understatement! The NAV, btw, is not a professional
association. It's a 'pro-life' lobbying group, equivalent to the
Christian Medical and Dental Society or Catholic Medical Association
in the USA. It's not exactly representative of Dutch society as a
whole.
- --
Frank Weaver Encrypted email preferred
wea...@world.std.com PGP KeyID: 33935039
On a keyserver near you
Lagers and porters and beers! Oh my!
-- Dorothy, "Wizard of Brews" (1939)
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RayOfLight <kelon100
would flee the country because of that! The country says it with
pride!
F u s t i g a t o r
02 Jan 2002 05:12:01 +0400, in littera
<ppo23uk609uf0flqi...@4ax.com> in foro
soc.culture.netherlands (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>A total hoax! In fact that country has legalised euthanasia and who
>would flee the country because of that! The country says it with
>pride!
Some elderly people from the eastern parts of the Nederlands already
go to German hospitals when being really ill ...They avoid the waiting
list, and eventually euthanasia
Fusti
theo1610
People with troubled lenses and so, indeed....
>and eventually euthanasia
With the morning-afterpil ? :)))
>Fustibabyboomersbeetle
--
Wilt u ook de gemoedelijke nederlandse samenleving veranderen
in een internationale vuilnisbelt vol dieven, verkrachters en
elkaar de keel afsnijders? Stem dan PvdA !!
--
"Lievebeheersbeestjes"
(voor een gratis advies)
Frank Weaver
In article <jfq53uc94pr7gtnof...@4ax.com>,
F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
[snip]
>Some elderly people from the eastern parts of the Nederlands already
>go to German hospitals when being really ill ...They avoid the waiting
>list, and eventually euthanasia
Suure, Fusti. Maybe they'll cross the border when the nearest
hospital, or one with special services they need, is there. But
do any except a few idealogues making a political statement do so?
Sources, please.
- --
Frank Weaver Encrypted email preferred
wea...@world.std.com PGP KeyID: 33935039
On a keyserver near you
Lagers and porters and beers! Oh my!
-- Dorothy, "Wizard of Brews" (1939)
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F u s t i g a t o r
Jan 2002 05:21:54 GMT, in littera <yN9O883/IIaT...@world.std.com> in
foro soc.culture.netherlands (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In article <jfq53uc94pr7gtnof...@4ax.com>,
>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>[snip]
>
>>Some elderly people from the eastern parts of the Nederlands already
>>go to German hospitals when being really ill ...They avoid the waiting
>>list, and eventually euthanasia
>
>Suure, Fusti. Maybe they'll cross the border when the nearest
>hospital, or one with special services they need, is there. But
>do any except a few idealogues making a political statement do so?
There is a strong anti-euthanasia lobby in the Netherland.
>Sources, please.
The best people to give you info is:
Prof. dr. G.A. Lindeboom Instituut voor Medische Ethiek
Prof.dr. G.A. Lindeboom Instituut
Postbus 224, 6710 BE Ede
Oude Kerkweg 100, 6717 JS Ede
tel. (0318) 696 333; fax. (0318) 696 334
e-mail: lind...@che.nl
Contactpersoon CAN: dr. ir. H. Jochemsen
Fusti
theo1610
>Vitae forma vocatur, wea...@world.std.com (Frank Weaver), die Wed, 9
>Jan 2002 05:21:54 GMT, in littera <yN9O883/IIaT...@world.std.com> in
>foro soc.culture.netherlands (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In article <jfq53uc94pr7gtnof...@4ax.com>,
>>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>>>Some elderly people from the eastern parts of the Nederlands already
>>>go to German hospitals when being really ill ...They avoid the waiting
>>>list, and eventually euthanasia
>>
>>Suure, Fusti. Maybe they'll cross the border when the nearest
>>hospital, or one with special services they need, is there. But
>>do any except a few idealogues making a political statement do so?
>There is a strong anti-euthanasia lobby in the Netherland.
A strong pro and a strong anti lobby are the best garanty
for the best balanced result, imo.
>>Sources, please.
>
>The best people to give you info is:
>Prof. dr. G.A. Lindeboom Instituut voor Medische Ethiek
>Prof.dr. G.A. Lindeboom Instituut
>Postbus 224, 6710 BE Ede
>Oude Kerkweg 100, 6717 JS Ede
>tel. (0318) 696 333; fax. (0318) 696 334
>e-mail: lind...@che.nl
>Contactpersoon CAN: dr. ir. H. Jochemsen
>
>Fusti
>
--
"Lievebeheersbeestjes"
--
F u s t i g a t o r
(theo1610), die Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:34:02 GMT, in littera
<3c3ca670...@news.demon.nl> in foro soc.culture.netherlands (et
aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>Vitae forma vocatur, wea...@world.std.com (Frank Weaver), die Wed, 9
>>Jan 2002 05:21:54 GMT, in littera <yN9O883/IIaT...@world.std.com> in
>>foro soc.culture.netherlands (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>>
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>>In article <jfq53uc94pr7gtnof...@4ax.com>,
>>>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>Some elderly people from the eastern parts of the Nederlands already
>>>>go to German hospitals when being really ill ...They avoid the waiting
>>>>list, and eventually euthanasia
>>>
>>>Suure, Fusti. Maybe they'll cross the border when the nearest
>>>hospital, or one with special services they need, is there. But
>>>do any except a few idealogues making a political statement do so?
>
>>There is a strong anti-euthanasia lobby in the Netherland.
>
>A strong pro and a strong anti lobby are the best garanty
>for the best balanced result, imo.
[.....]
Also for racism, nazism communism?
Fusti
theo1610
>Vitae forma vocatur, lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl
>(theo1610), die Wed, 09 Jan 2002 20:34:02 GMT, in littera
><3c3ca670...@news.demon.nl> in foro soc.culture.netherlands (et
>aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>
>>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>>>Vitae forma vocatur, wea...@world.std.com (Frank Weaver), die Wed, 9
>>>Jan 2002 05:21:54 GMT, in littera <yN9O883/IIaT...@world.std.com> in
>>>foro soc.culture.netherlands (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>>>
>>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>
>>>>In article <jfq53uc94pr7gtnof...@4ax.com>,
>>>>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>>Some elderly people from the eastern parts of the Nederlands already
>>>>>go to German hospitals when being really ill ...They avoid the waiting
>>>>>list, and eventually euthanasia
>>>>
>>>>Suure, Fusti. Maybe they'll cross the border when the nearest
>>>>hospital, or one with special services they need, is there. But
>>>>do any except a few idealogues making a political statement do so?
>>
>>>There is a strong anti-euthanasia lobby in the Netherland.
>>
>>A strong pro and a strong anti lobby are the best garanty
>>for the best balanced result, imo.
>[.....]
>
>Also for racism, nazism communism?
I you want to clean your ass even for the right arm.
>
>Fusti
--
Jongens het slagveld opsturen met stenen of
meisjes met hoofddoekjes is even verderflijk.
--
"Lievebeheersbeestjes"
F u s t i g a t o r
(theo1610), die Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:12:04 GMT, in littera
<3c3e1651...@news.demon.nl> in foro soc.culture.netherlands (et
Your ass should always be cleaned with you left hand.
Ask indonesian people, they will tell you <why>.
>>Fusti
>
>--
>Jongens het slagveld opsturen met stenen of
>meisjes met hoofddoekjes is even verderflijk.
Met brandblusapparaten tegen de pikken, is daarentegen "goed".
Fusti
Frank Weaver
In article <1rdo3u89hipe48b58...@4ax.com>,
F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>Vitae forma vocatur, wea...@world.std.com (Frank Weaver), die Wed, 9
>Jan 2002 05:21:54 GMT, in littera <yN9O883/IIaT...@world.std.com> in
>foro soc.culture.netherlands (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
[snip]
>>Sources, please.
>
>The best people to give you info is:
>Prof. dr. G.A. Lindeboom Instituut voor Medische Ethiek
http://www.che.nl/lindeboom/
English page: http://www.che.nl/lindeboom/prof_lindeboom.htm
Founded and financed by anti-euthanasia lobbyists expressly as an
academic outpost for 'pro-life' polemics.
I can't think of a LESS reliable source of honest information than
the hired mouthpiece of the same people who created this hoax to
begin with.
It doesn't help that I'm already aware of some of Mr. Jochemsen's
other brazen misrepresentations of Dutch euthanasia.
- --
Frank Weaver Encrypted email preferred
wea...@world.std.com PGP KeyID: 33935039
On a keyserver near you
Lagers and porters and beers! Oh my!
-- Dorothy, "Wizard of Brews" (1939)
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theo1610
Pom pom pom....
--
De mens is veruit de domste aap.
--
"Lievebeheersbeestjes"
theo1610
>>Jongens het slagveld opsturen met stenen of
>>meisjes met hoofddoekjes is even verderflijk.
>
>Met brandblusapparaten tegen de pikken, is daarentegen "goed".
Stofzuigers tegen mongolen is nog beter.
>Fusti
Nantko Schanssema
>>>Jongens het slagveld opsturen met stenen of
>>>meisjes met hoofddoekjes is even verderflijk.
>>Met brandblusapparaten tegen de pikken, is daarentegen "goed".
>Stofzuigers tegen mongolen is nog beter.
Gentlemen, in the newsgroups talk.euthanasia and alt.suicide.holiday,
to which this thread is crossposted, there are a few people around who
can't read Dutch. Please be considerate.
F u s t i g a t o r
(theo1610), die Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:57:48 GMT, in littera
<3c44cf5a...@news.demon.nl> in foro be.politics (et aliis) vere
scripsit quod sequitur:
>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>Pom pom pom....
>--
>De mens is veruit de domste aap.
Teveel in je spiegel gekeken, Theo?
Fusti
theo1610
>Vitae forma vocatur, lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl
>(theo1610), die Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:57:48 GMT, in littera
><3c44cf5a...@news.demon.nl> in foro be.politics (et aliis) vere
>scripsit quod sequitur:
>
>>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>>Pom pom pom....
>>--
>>De mens is veruit de domste aap.
>
>Teveel in je spiegel gekeken, Theo?
Ik teveel of jij te weinig, i don't know.
>Fusti
--
De mens is veruit de domste aap.
--
"Lievebeheersbeestjes"
F u s t i g a t o r
(theo1610), die Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:02:16 GMT, in littera
<3c46f420...@news.demon.nl> in foro be.politics (et aliis) vere
scripsit quod sequitur:
>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>Vitae forma vocatur, lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl
>>(theo1610), die Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:57:48 GMT, in littera
>><3c44cf5a...@news.demon.nl> in foro be.politics (et aliis) vere
>>scripsit quod sequitur:
>>
>>>F u s t i g a t o r <fusti...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>Pom pom pom....
>>>--
>>>De mens is veruit de domste aap.
>>
>>Teveel in je spiegel gekeken, Theo?
>
>Ik teveel of jij te weinig, i don't know.
Jij duidelijk teveel, dus! ;-)))
>>Fusti
>
>--
>De mens is veruit de domste aap.
Fusti