Q. Does everyone in Brussels speak French?
F u s t i g a t o r
Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:09:51 +0100, in littera
<befp7v84gejrpppt9...@4ax.com> in foro
alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>F u s t i g a t o r schreef op Fri, 21 Mar 2003 23:15:35 +0100 in de
>nieuwsgroep be.history
>
>>Vitae forma vocatur, dho...@skynet.be (Derek Howard), die 21 Mar 2003
>>08:58:13 -0800, in littera
>><ea734afc.03032...@posting.google.com> in foro
>>alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>>
>>>Filip_Vl...@yahoo.co.uk (Filip) wrote in message news:<5229a8fb.0303...@posting.google.com>...
>>>> Taken from "Newcomer - An Introduction to Life in Belgium", a twice
>>>> yearly magazine, published by the company behind The Bulletin (a
>>>> weekly magazine in English for the expat community in Brussels).
>>>> "Newcomer" provides newcomers with information on what to do before
>>>> arriving in Belgium, the necessary formalities, practical aspects of
>>>> living here and leisure activities etc. There is also a section with
>>>> information on the political and institutional make up of the country.
>>>>
>>>> Let's see what Newcomer has to say on the language situation in
>>>> Brussels... (taken from the Q&A section)
>>>> ________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Q. Does everyone in Brussels speak French?
>>>>
>>>> A. No. Brussels is officially bilingual, though about 85 percent of
>>>> the population is French-speaking. Brussels was a Dutch-speaking city
>>>> in the middle ages, and is today surrounded by towns and villages
>>>> where Dutch is the official language.
>>>>
>>>________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As often with these so-called "neutral" publications for expats, one
>>>> finds a lot of false, misleading, or consistently biased information
>>>> on the language divide in Belgium, and its history.
>>>>
>>>> Of course "Newcomer" doesn't mention that it was only during the
>>>> French occupation (1794-1815) and after the creation of Belgium in
>>>> 1830 that the process of forced frenchification of Brussels really
>>>> started. The proportion of Dutch speakers in Brussels was still 85-90%
>>>> at the beginning of the 19th century.
>>>>
>>>> Filip
>>>
>>>What you write is not inconsistent with the quote you give from
>>>Newcomer - where is the false, misleading or consistent bias?
>>>
>>>As a Brussels resident, I do not wish history to be used as the basis
>>>for creating new divisions or aggrevating old ones - wherever in the
>>>world. History is to learn from rather than an excuse for a chip on
>>>the shoulder.
>>>
>>>Really, what does it matter what language is spoken provided the
>>>message is understood?
>>
>>I fully agree with that
>
>I would have been surprised if you hadn't.
>
Indeed, I'm not language challenged, and do not mind to speak, as much
as possible with people in their own language.
>>>Thanks for writing in English.
>>
>>You welcome ("ahlan os ahlan" in Irak)
>>
>>Flemish extremists sometimes would prefer to write in uygur, pali,
>>urdu, inuit or patagonian rather than in french language....:-)
>
>In Brussels it is the right of all Flemings (not just extremists) to
>use their native language in their contacts with the authorities and
>the authorities are supposed to respect that.
We know the song.
>The same with Belgian embassies. Although the situation has improved compared to a decade or
>so ago, there are still embassies where it is almost, if not
>completely, impossible to find someone who is able or willing to speak
>Dutch.
I would be pleased to tell me where.
Not in Rome where there are two embassies and one permantent Belgian
delegation at the FAO. There I always found people who were willing to
speak Dutch.
>You wouldn't care, you would speak French wouldn't you, Fusti?
Or English, or Italian etc....
>But where is your self respect then?
You started to adress me here in...English.
I fail to see what loss of self-respect you would have to endure by
speaking people in their native language.
>And where are your legal rights as a Belgian citizen?
My legal right are to pay my taxes . But you have never been with me
in Brussels in my contacts with the local administration.
>Can you imagine a circumstance where a
>UK-national abroad woul find himself in the impossibility to
>communicate with his embassy somewhere in Asia or Africa?
Any traveler should at least possess some knowledge of english
language.
>Unheard of!
Did you have had personally the case where you couldn't be understood
by the local Belgian embassy people in some place?
Tell me the details.
>They would object, to put it mildly. Well, that is what used to be the
>rule more than the exeption for Flemings in their contacts with their
>embassies. As I said things have improved, but it is an example of the
>contempt that existed for the language of the majority of this
>country.
That this happened 100 years ago, that's possible. But no longer in
2003.
>
>
>>
>>I am my self a pure genuine Flemish (from Ostend) but I do recognize
>>that in Brussels Flemish language is nearly gone.
>
>That is more or less correct but it is beside the question.
That means that in town you are rarely helped in shops etc in Dutch.
>The
>question is what I said above, that we are entitled to respect for our
>language in Brussels. Native English speakers, or speakers of other
>languages in countries where no comparable problems exist, have the
>greatest difficulty in understanding what those problems are.
Because they are pure sentimental and not factuel. People tend to be
non-romantic but efficient in our days. Flemish nationalists as you
are are just out of date romantics. Awake: we are in the XXI century
and no longer in the XIXth.
>But talk
>to Norwegians, Fins, Basks, Catalonians and other nationalities and
>you will hear the same complaint.
I would mind to speak to belgian embassy people in Caracas in Spanish,
or in Wellington NZ in English.
> I also dare say that the situation
>in Belgium is in a ways unique for Europe in that sense that here it
>is the majority-language that has always been in the defense and not a
>minor, obscure lingo spoken in a forlorn corner of the country.
Because Flemish nationalists start bothering the people who speak
French with them, cultivating antibodies in them against Dutch
language.
Dutch people from Holland are not afflicted by this inferiority
complex and unlike you, do behave totally normally abroad.
Fusti
J. J. Lodder
> Dutch people from Holland are not afflicted by this inferiority
> complex and unlike you, do behave totally normally abroad.
rotfl,
Totally normally, Jan
Michel Martens
nieuwsgroep be.history
Ok, fine. But YOUR knowledge of languages is not necessarily the
knowledge of others and you always make the same mistake by taking
your own situation as the starting point for others.
>
>
>>>>Thanks for writing in English.
>>>
>>>You welcome ("ahlan os ahlan" in Irak)
>>>
>>>Flemish extremists sometimes would prefer to write in uygur, pali,
>>>urdu, inuit or patagonian rather than in french language....:-)
>>
>>In Brussels it is the right of all Flemings (not just extremists) to
>>use their native language in their contacts with the authorities and
>>the authorities are supposed to respect that.
>
>We know the song.
Yes, but others don't.
>
>>The same with Belgian embassies. Although the situation has improved compared to a decade or
>>so ago, there are still embassies where it is almost, if not
>>completely, impossible to find someone who is able or willing to speak
>>Dutch.
>
>I would be pleased to tell me where.
>Not in Rome where there are two embassies and one permantent Belgian
>delegation at the FAO. There I always found people who were willing to
>speak Dutch.
Which is a normal situation.
>>You wouldn't care, you would speak French wouldn't you, Fusti?
>
>Or English, or Italian etc....
Yes, we know the song.
>
>>But where is your self respect then?
>
>You started to adress me here in...English.
This is Usenet. I am not adressing you but a group. And a fellow
group-member politely asked to continue this discussion in English.
What's wrong about that?
>
>I fail to see what loss of self-respect you would have to endure by
>speaking people in their native language.
You missed the point. I was talking about the authorities. They have
to speak and understand the language of the citizen. The matter is of
course totally different where contacts between private persons or
organisations are concerned.
>
>>And where are your legal rights as a Belgian citizen?
>
>My legal right are to pay my taxes . But you have never been with me
>in Brussels in my contacts with the local administration.
There is no need to. Not so long ago you wrote in this forum that you
will speak the language you are addressed in in your contact with the
administration. That is ok as long as this civil servant knows and
understands that you don't *have* to do this.
>
>>Can you imagine a circumstance where a
>>UK-national abroad woul find himself in the impossibility to
>>communicate with his embassy somewhere in Asia or Africa?
>
>Any traveler should at least possess some knowledge of english
>language.
Should. And what in case he does not speak any foreign language? Is
that a crime? Would that mean he is bound to spend his holiday in his
own language area? And even with some knowledge of English there are
circumstances and places enough in the world where that language is
not of great help.
>
>>Unheard of!
>
>Did you have had personally the case where you couldn't be understood
>by the local Belgian embassy people in some place?
Yes, a decade or two ago not far from here: in Paris of all places. I
was there on business and there was a parliamentary election in
Belgium. So I had to go to the embassy for some formalities as I could
not vote here in the country due to my absence. When I tried to
explain what the matter was the person at the counter thought I was
another Pole asking for asylum. It was the time of the big revolt in
Poland with hundreds of Polish nationals escaping to the West. Well,
there was no one in the Belgian embassy in Paris to help me further in
my own language which sounded like Polish in their ears. You have
heard me speak in real life: do I sound like a Pole?
>
>Tell me the details.
You have been served.
>
>>They would object, to put it mildly. Well, that is what used to be the
>>rule more than the exeption for Flemings in their contacts with their
>>embassies. As I said things have improved, but it is an example of the
>>contempt that existed for the language of the majority of this
>>country.
>
>That this happened 100 years ago, that's possible. But no longer in
>2003.
A hunderd years ago? Yes. And fifty years ago and twenty years and
maybe ten years ago and maybe, but I am not sure, even today. I give
them the benefi of the doubt.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I am my self a pure genuine Flemish (from Ostend) but I do recognize
>>>that in Brussels Flemish language is nearly gone.
>>
>>That is more or less correct but it is beside the question.
>
>That means that in town you are rarely helped in shops etc in Dutch.
When you have money in your pocket and they want to sell you
something, a lot is possible. Which only shows that not underdtanding
or speaking Dutch is often a matter of not *wanting* to understand or
to speak ...
>
>>The
>>question is what I said above, that we are entitled to respect for our
>>language in Brussels. Native English speakers, or speakers of other
>>languages in countries where no comparable problems exist, have the
>>greatest difficulty in understanding what those problems are.
>
>Because they are pure sentimental and not factuel. People tend to be
>non-romantic but efficient in our days. Flemish nationalists as you
>are are just out of date romantics. Awake: we are in the XXI century
>and no longer in the XIXth.
Why do you say I am a Flemish nationalist? Does one have to be a
nationalist to ask respect for one's mother tongue? The language is
one's identity also in the twenty-first century. This has nothing to
do with false sentiments or nationalism. When *you* talk about the
language situation in Belgium you are always inclined to connect it
with politics. Ok, politcs has been using and abusing the situation,
but you are not entitled to judge other people's feelings about their
language and certainly not to link these feelings with romanticism,
nationalism or politics. That is not your business.
>
>
>>But talk
>>to Norwegians, Fins, Basks, Catalonians and other nationalities and
>>you will hear the same complaint.
>
>I would mind to speak to belgian embassy people in Caracas in Spanish,
>or in Wellington NZ in English.
>
>> I also dare say that the situation
>>in Belgium is in a ways unique for Europe in that sense that here it
>>is the majority-language that has always been in the defense and not a
>>minor, obscure lingo spoken in a forlorn corner of the country.
>
>Because Flemish nationalists start bothering the people who speak
>French with them, cultivating antibodies in them against Dutch
>language.
That is definitely not true and you know that! You are saying this
because you know that maybe other nationals may be reading this. That
is not very comme il faut. Some Flemish fellow posters in some groups
that we both visit, regularly write in French when it is appropriate,
when a French speaking fellow countrymen addresses the group in
French. What you state above is definitely a generalisation of the
first order.
>
>Dutch people from Holland are not afflicted by this inferiority
>complex and unlike you, do behave totally normally abroad.
1 - The Dutchmen have never had a language problem in their country so
they don't know or even understand what it means to defend one's
language against cultural imperialism, as it used to be here until
after WWII.
2 - What gives you the right to judge my behaviour abroad? How can you
know what my behaviour abroad actually IS?
3 - If 'to behave totally normally abroad' as you say the Dutchmen do,
means 'to speak English in all circumstances', then they behave
normally. They even use English (or something resembling that lingo)
at home: "We gaan shoppen met de kids".
>
>
>
>Fusti
As always you can have the last word in this discussion.
--
Groeten,
Michel.
(e-mailadres = nep)
Michel Martens
nieuwsgroep be.history
>F u s t i g a t o r <Fustigator@NOT_THAT.xs4all.nl> wrote:
Uit de context gerukt is deze bewering inderdaad een giller van
formaat.
Wordt het tóch nog gezellig.
F u s t i g a t o r
23 Mar 2003 21:21:24 +0100, in littera
<1fs9sbu.4pn...@de-ster.xs4all.nl> in foro
alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>F u s t i g a t o r <Fustigator@NOT_THAT.xs4all.nl> wrote:
Thanks Jan, to confirm my argument
Fusti
F u s t i g a t o r
<6j5s7vk1iotccquj9...@4ax.com> in foro
alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>F u s t i g a t o r schreef op Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:22:10 +0100 in de
>nieuwsgroep be.history
>
>>Vitae forma vocatur, Michel Martens <metrisc...@yahool.com>, die
>>Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:09:51 +0100, in littera
>><befp7v84gejrpppt9...@4ax.com> in foro
>>alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
[...]
>>>>>
>>>>>Really, what does it matter what language is spoken provided the
>>>>>message is understood?
>>>>
>>>>I fully agree with that
>>>
>>>I would have been surprised if you hadn't.
>>>
>>Indeed, I'm not language challenged, and do not mind to speak, as much
>>as possible with people in their own language.
>
>Ok, fine. But YOUR knowledge of languages is not necessarily the
>knowledge of others and you always make the same mistake by taking
>your own situation as the starting point for others.
Why others can't do what i can?
To learn languages is possible to everyone, but you have to perform
some efforts to do so.
Why can I do that and another person apparently not?
Anwser: because this person is too lazy to do so.
>
>>
>>
>>>>>Thanks for writing in English.
>>>>
>>>>You welcome ("ahlan os ahlan" in Irak)
>>>>
>>>>Flemish extremists sometimes would prefer to write in uygur, pali,
>>>>urdu, inuit or patagonian rather than in french language....:-)
>>>
>>>In Brussels it is the right of all Flemings (not just extremists) to
>>>use their native language in their contacts with the authorities and
>>>the authorities are supposed to respect that.
>>
>>We know the song.
>
>Yes, but others don't.
>
Explain.
But this will show once again the narrow mindedness of many Belgians.
>>>The same with Belgian embassies. Although the situation has improved compared to a decade or
>>>so ago, there are still embassies where it is almost, if not
>>>completely, impossible to find someone who is able or willing to speak
>>>Dutch.
>>
>>I would be pleased to tell me where.
>>Not in Rome where there are two embassies and one permantent Belgian
>>delegation at the FAO. There I always found people who were willing to
>>speak Dutch.
>
>Which is a normal situation.
I can't believe that it is not the case elsewhere in 2003.
Are you sure that your info is not outdated?
>
>>>You wouldn't care, you would speak French wouldn't you, Fusti?
>>
>>Or English, or Italian etc....
>
>Yes, we know the song.
>
But others don't...;-)
>>>But where is your self respect then?
>>
>>You started to adress me here in...English.
>
>This is Usenet. I am not adressing you but a group. And a fellow
>group-member politely asked to continue this discussion in English.
>What's wrong about that?
>
Nothing at all. But you stated that you lose respect by speaking
another language than your mother-tongue.
I fail to understand why.
>>I fail to see what loss of self-respect you would have to endure by
>>speaking people in their native language.
>
>You missed the point. I was talking about the authorities. They have
>to speak and understand the language of the citizen. The matter is of
>course totally different where contacts between private persons or
>organisations are concerned.
Yes I understand and agree with you concerning Brussels.
But what in shops, pubs etc and other premises which are not
governement owned?
>
>>
>>>And where are your legal rights as a Belgian citizen?
>>
>>My legal right are to pay my taxes . But you have never been with me
>>in Brussels in my contacts with the local administration.
>
>There is no need to. Not so long ago you wrote in this forum that you
>will speak the language you are addressed in in your contact with the
>administration.
Mainly but not exclusively.
>That is ok as long as this civil servant knows and
>understands that you don't *have* to do this.
OK
>>
>>>Can you imagine a circumstance where a
>>>UK-national abroad woul find himself in the impossibility to
>>>communicate with his embassy somewhere in Asia or Africa?
>>
>>Any traveler should at least possess some knowledge of english
>>language.
>
>Should. And what in case he does not speak any foreign language? Is
>that a crime?
No... it's only an evidence of laziness.
>Would that mean he is bound to spend his holiday in his
>own language area? And even with some knowledge of English there are
>circumstances and places enough in the world where that language is
>not of great help.
Agreed upon.
>>>Unheard of!
>>
>>Did you have had personally the case where you couldn't be understood
>>by the local Belgian embassy people in some place?
>
>Yes, a decade or two ago not far from here: in Paris of all places. I
>was there on business and there was a parliamentary election in
>Belgium. So I had to go to the embassy for some formalities as I could
>not vote here in the country due to my absence. When I tried to
>explain what the matter was the person at the counter thought I was
>another Pole asking for asylum. It was the time of the big revolt in
>Poland with hundreds of Polish nationals escaping to the West. Well,
>there was no one in the Belgian embassy in Paris to help me further in
>my own language which sounded like Polish in their ears. You have
>heard me speak in real life: do I sound like a Pole?
>
20 years ago?
Yes things might have changed by now, but I remeber that in ± 1970 the
cultural attaché at the Belgian embassy was Guy Buysse, (yes the
grandson of Cyriel), who spent his life in St Maartens Latem and was
quite fluent in dutch language, being Flemish himself. I knew him well
since he was in my class at the high school where i studied.
Unfortunately he was murdered in obscure circumstances in Cairo
already many years ago.
>>
>>Tell me the details.
>
>You have been served.
>
Your info is a littel bit outdated, don't you think so?
>>>They would object, to put it mildly. Well, that is what used to be the
>>>rule more than the exeption for Flemings in their contacts with their
>>>embassies. As I said things have improved, but it is an example of the
>>>contempt that existed for the language of the majority of this
>>>country.
>>
>>That this happened 100 years ago, that's possible. But no longer in
>>2003.
>
>A hunderd years ago? Yes. And fifty years ago and twenty years and
>maybe ten years ago and maybe, but I am not sure, even today. I give
>them the benefi of the doubt.
OK
>>>>I am my self a pure genuine Flemish (from Ostend) but I do recognize
>>>>that in Brussels Flemish language is nearly gone.
>>>
>>>That is more or less correct but it is beside the question.
>>
>>That means that in town you are rarely helped in shops etc in Dutch.
>
>When you have money in your pocket and they want to sell you
>something, a lot is possible. Which only shows that not underdtanding
>or speaking Dutch is often a matter of not *wanting* to understand or
>to speak ...
>
Everything, including shit, may happen.
>>>The
>>>question is what I said above, that we are entitled to respect for our
>>>language in Brussels. Native English speakers, or speakers of other
>>>languages in countries where no comparable problems exist, have the
>>>greatest difficulty in understanding what those problems are.
>>
>>Because they are pure sentimental and not factuel. People tend to be
>>non-romantic but efficient in our days. Flemish nationalists as you
>>are are just out of date romantics. Awake: we are in the XXI century
>>and no longer in the XIXth.
>
>Why do you say I am a Flemish nationalist? Does one have to be a
>nationalist to ask respect for one's mother tongue? The language is
>one's identity also in the twenty-first century. This has nothing to
>do with false sentiments or nationalism. When *you* talk about the
>language situation in Belgium you are always inclined to connect it
>with politics. Ok, politcs has been using and abusing the situation,
>but you are not entitled to judge other people's feelings about their
>language and certainly not to link these feelings with romanticism,
>nationalism or politics. That is not your business.
I analyze the signs of the time, and people with language problems
like you (I am very fortunately language-immune) are mainly
politically challenged. in North-Belgium language (Dutch in casu) is
abused as spearhead for separatists strivings.
>>>But talk
>>>to Norwegians, Fins, Basks, Catalonians and other nationalities and
>>>you will hear the same complaint.
>>
>>I would mind to speak to belgian embassy people in Caracas in Spanish,
>>or in Wellington NZ in English.
>>
>>> I also dare say that the situation
>>>in Belgium is in a ways unique for Europe in that sense that here it
>>>is the majority-language that has always been in the defense and not a
>>>minor, obscure lingo spoken in a forlorn corner of the country.
>>
>>Because Flemish nationalists start bothering the people who speak
>>French with them, cultivating antibodies in them against Dutch
>>language.
>
>That is definitely not true and you know that!
hold on, my dear...
> You are saying this
>because you know that maybe other nationals may be reading this.
No I discuss with you here and now.
> That is not very comme il faut.
Why not?
>Some Flemish fellow posters in some groups
>that we both visit, regularly write in French when it is appropriate,
>when a French speaking fellow countrymen addresses the group in
>French. What you state above is definitely a generalisation of the
>first order.
I klnow that there are exceptions, burt exceptions are exceptions and
not the rule.
>
>>Dutch people from Holland are not afflicted by this inferiority
>>complex and unlike you, do behave totally normally abroad.
>
>1 - The Dutchmen have never had a language problem in their country so
>they don't know or even understand what it means to defend one's
>language against cultural imperialism, as it used to be here until
>after WWII.
Come on....
WW2 was 60 years ago.
Wake up: we live in 2003.
>
>2 - What gives you the right to judge my behaviour abroad? How can you
>know what my behaviour abroad actually IS?
I guess out from the stands you do take here.
>
>3 - If 'to behave totally normally abroad' as you say the Dutchmen do,
>means 'to speak English in all circumstances', then they behave
>normally.
What's wrong with that?
I know: in the US I use much more often Spanish than in the old days,
but still most of the time i use english language over there.
>They even use English (or something resembling that lingo)
>at home: "We gaan shoppen met de kids".
3verything is possible but not everything is allowed" said
Dostoyewsky.
>>
>>
>>Fusti
>
>As always you can have the last word in this discussion.
I just do answer to your burning questions.
Please feel free to respind or not.
You are a fine fellow IRL, since I met you twice, and nothing is
changed in that field.
Fusti
F u s t i g a t o r
<afbs7vs8q0r220cpc...@4ax.com> in foro
alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>J. J. Lodder schreef op Sun, 23 Mar 2003 21:21:24 +0100 in de
't Zat je toch dwars, hee Michel!;-)
Fusti
J. J. Lodder
> Vitae forma vocatur, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder), die Sun,
> 23 Mar 2003 21:21:24 +0100, in littera
> <1fs9sbu.4pn...@de-ster.xs4all.nl> in foro
> alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>
> >F u s t i g a t o r <Fustigator@NOT_THAT.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> Dutch people from Holland are not afflicted by this inferiority
> >> complex and unlike you, do behave totally normally abroad.
> >
> >rotfl,
> >
> >Totally normally, Jan
>
> Thanks Jan, to confirm my argument
It was a pleasure,
Jan
Didier Leroi
<metrisc...@yahool.com> wrote:
Because this thread has been crossposted to many english spoken
newsgroups I'll put something in the same language (I usually speak
French).
Back to the subject:
Not everyone in Brussels speaks French. It has been usual to say that
85% speak French, 15% speak Dutch. But this is a rough estimation as
also many people speak some arabic language as first languages, but
they usually know French as second language.
Filip in his initial post was referring to an article in "Newcomer"
and went back more or less far in the past to state that Brussels
originally was a Flemish (Dutch) spoken city. That is true enough, no
doubt about it. He also stated about the present 85/15 proportion
which seems to me fair enough.
Fusti spoke about he relation between Flemish nationalism and
the will to be spoken to in Dutch when in Brussels.
As Michel puts it, that is only the political side of it. One does not
need be nationalist at all to want to be spoken to in Dutch when
relating to any authorities or public services: it is his good right.
There was told about the situation in Belgian embassies abroad 20
years ago. Well, in those times, when the guy spoke to me in Dutch at
the post office, I reacted the same way. He should speak French to me.
Just the same but the other way round!
Shops, restaurants, hotels, cafés are private facilities. People there
are free to speak whatever language they want to, usually French in
Brussels. That is their choice. If the customer is not satisfied with
it, well, it's too bad for him and he moves *and* it's too bad for the
selling guy because he'll lose sales.
Another attitude which, as far as I know, is the one of a small
minority, is *not willing* to speak Dutch even if one could understand
and speak a few words. I despise such an attitude. It goes against any
friendship and conviviality.
Not everybody is languages gifted. Fusti and I, also Michel I think,
speak three or more languages: "the more languages one knows, the more
human he is", somebody righteously said.
Michel mentioned the word "respect" and this word, to me, is a key
word. Not only as far as languages are concerned but also in all human
relations.
Kind regards to both,
Didier
PS: I dropped the post I'm answering to for it grew too long.
Michel Martens
nieuwsgroep be.history
>Vitae forma vocatur, Michel Martens <metrisc...@yahool.com>, die
>Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:13:34 +0100, in littera
><6j5s7vk1iotccquj9...@4ax.com> in foro
>alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>
>>F u s t i g a t o r schreef op Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:22:10 +0100 in de
>>nieuwsgroep be.history
>>
>>>Vitae forma vocatur, Michel Martens <metrisc...@yahool.com>, die
>>>Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:09:51 +0100, in littera
>>><befp7v84gejrpppt9...@4ax.com> in foro
>>>alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>[...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Really, what does it matter what language is spoken provided the
>>>>>>message is understood?
>>>>>
>>>>>I fully agree with that
>>>>
>>>>I would have been surprised if you hadn't.
>>>>
>>>Indeed, I'm not language challenged, and do not mind to speak, as much
>>>as possible with people in their own language.
>>
>>Ok, fine. But YOUR knowledge of languages is not necessarily the
>>knowledge of others and you always make the same mistake by taking
>>your own situation as the starting point for others.
>
>Why others can't do what i can?
Because they may not have had the opportunity to learn languages, or
don't have the skill. But these people may know other interesting
things not present in your grey mass. So they may greet you politely
but behind your back they will say: "What a stupid blockhead, this
Fustigator, he even doesn't know why the cats of the Ile of Wight have
no tails", or something the like. This is just an example. Maybe you
DO know why those cates have no tail, but even you do not know
everything.
>
>To learn languages is possible to everyone, but you have to perform
>some efforts to do so.
>
>Why can I do that and another person apparently not?
>
>Anwser: because this person is too lazy to do so.
That is a very conceited point of view with which you insult al lot of
people. Do you realise that!?
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Thanks for writing in English.
>>>>>
>>>>>You welcome ("ahlan os ahlan" in Irak)
>>>>>
>>>>>Flemish extremists sometimes would prefer to write in uygur, pali,
>>>>>urdu, inuit or patagonian rather than in french language....:-)
>>>>
>>>>In Brussels it is the right of all Flemings (not just extremists) to
>>>>use their native language in their contacts with the authorities and
>>>>the authorities are supposed to respect that.
>>>
>>>We know the song.
>>
>>Yes, but others don't.
>>
>Explain.
'Explaining' is what I have been doing since I came into this thread.
>But this will show once again the narrow mindedness of many Belgians.
And the arrogance of others.
>
>>>>The same with Belgian embassies. Although the situation has improved compared to a decade or
>>>>so ago, there are still embassies where it is almost, if not
>>>>completely, impossible to find someone who is able or willing to speak
>>>>Dutch.
>>>
>>>I would be pleased to tell me where.
>>>Not in Rome where there are two embassies and one permantent Belgian
>>>delegation at the FAO. There I always found people who were willing to
>>>speak Dutch.
>>
>>Which is a normal situation.
>
>I can't believe that it is not the case elsewhere in 2003.
>
>Are you sure that your info is not outdated?
Could be. As I said, I give it the benifit of my doubt.
>
>>
>>>>You wouldn't care, you would speak French wouldn't you, Fusti?
>>>
>>>Or English, or Italian etc....
>>
>>Yes, we know the song.
>>
>But others don't...;-)
So, there are people who do NOT know you? Is that what you are
implying? I am dissappointed.
>
>>>>But where is your self respect then?
>>>
>>>You started to adress me here in...English.
>>
>>This is Usenet. I am not adressing you but a group. And a fellow
>>group-member politely asked to continue this discussion in English.
>>What's wrong about that?
>>
>Nothing at all. But you stated that you lose respect by speaking
>another language than your mother-tongue.
You are twisting my words (as usual) and interpreting them in a way
that suits your twisted points of view. I should know better than
trying to discuss with you in an decent way.
>
>I fail to understand why.
Is that the first time? (From where comes that roar of laughter?)
>
>>>I fail to see what loss of self-respect you would have to endure by
>>>speaking people in their native language.
>>
>>You missed the point. I was talking about the authorities. They have
>>to speak and understand the language of the citizen. The matter is of
>>course totally different where contacts between private persons or
>>organisations are concerned.
>
>Yes I understand and agree with you concerning Brussels.
>But what in shops, pubs etc and other premises which are not
>governement owned?
There they will speak the universal language: that of the money.
The sound of bullion can make people do the weirdest things.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>And where are your legal rights as a Belgian citizen?
>>>
>>>My legal right are to pay my taxes . But you have never been with me
>>>in Brussels in my contacts with the local administration.
>>
>>There is no need to. Not so long ago you wrote in this forum that you
>>will speak the language you are addressed in in your contact with the
>>administration.
>
>Mainly but not exclusively.
For me that is a confirmation of what I stated.
>
>>That is ok as long as this civil servant knows and
>>understands that you don't *have* to do this.
>
>
>OK
>>>
>>>>Can you imagine a circumstance where a
>>>>UK-national abroad woul find himself in the impossibility to
>>>>communicate with his embassy somewhere in Asia or Africa?
>>>
>>>Any traveler should at least possess some knowledge of english
>>>language.
>>
>>Should. And what in case he does not speak any foreign language? Is
>>that a crime?
>
>No... it's only an evidence of laziness.
Another insult to people who, due to circumstances that are none of
our business, have never been able to acqaint themselves with a
foreign language. Those circumstances may be manifold such as social
circumstances, intelligence, (lack of) eagerness to learn, cleverness
and so on. Laziness too, but it is not up to you to condemn anyone for
not speaking a foreign language. There IS one exception though: if you
become a civil servant then you are supposed to speak the language of
the citizen you are working for and who pays your salary through his
taxes.
>
>>Would that mean he is bound to spend his holiday in his
>>own language area? And even with some knowledge of English there are
>>circumstances and places enough in the world where that language is
>>not of great help.
>
>
>Agreed upon.
>
>>>>Unheard of!
>>>
>>>Did you have had personally the case where you couldn't be understood
>>>by the local Belgian embassy people in some place?
>>
>>Yes, a decade or two ago not far from here: in Paris of all places. I
>>was there on business and there was a parliamentary election in
>>Belgium. So I had to go to the embassy for some formalities as I could
>>not vote here in the country due to my absence. When I tried to
>>explain what the matter was the person at the counter thought I was
>>another Pole asking for asylum. It was the time of the big revolt in
>>Poland with hundreds of Polish nationals escaping to the West. Well,
>>there was no one in the Belgian embassy in Paris to help me further in
>>my own language which sounded like Polish in their ears. You have
>>heard me speak in real life: do I sound like a Pole?
>>
>20 years ago?
When were those troubles in Poland, when Lech Walesa made all that
fuss as a trade-union leader? 1980, give or take a year.
>
>Yes things might have changed by now, but I remeber that in ± 1970 the
>cultural attaché at the Belgian embassy was Guy Buysse, (yes the
>grandson of Cyriel), who spent his life in St Maartens Latem and was
>quite fluent in dutch language, being Flemish himself. I knew him well
>since he was in my class at the high school where i studied.
>Unfortunately he was murdered in obscure circumstances in Cairo
>already many years ago.
>>>
>>>Tell me the details.
>>
>>You have been served.
>>
>Your info is a littel bit outdated, don't you think so?
You asked for my personal experience. You got it.
You didn' ask for *recent* personal experience. There is none because
I have never been in need for embassy assistence since.
>
>>>>They would object, to put it mildly. Well, that is what used to be the
>>>>rule more than the exeption for Flemings in their contacts with their
>>>>embassies. As I said things have improved, but it is an example of the
>>>>contempt that existed for the language of the majority of this
>>>>country.
>>>
>>>That this happened 100 years ago, that's possible. But no longer in
>>>2003.
>>
>>A hunderd years ago? Yes. And fifty years ago and twenty years and
>>maybe ten years ago and maybe, but I am not sure, even today. I give
>>them the benefi of the doubt.
>OK
>
>>>>>I am my self a pure genuine Flemish (from Ostend) but I do recognize
>>>>>that in Brussels Flemish language is nearly gone.
>>>>
>>>>That is more or less correct but it is beside the question.
>>>
>>>That means that in town you are rarely helped in shops etc in Dutch.
>>
>>When you have money in your pocket and they want to sell you
>>something, a lot is possible. Which only shows that not underdtanding
>>or speaking Dutch is often a matter of not *wanting* to understand or
>>to speak ...
>>
>Everything, including shit, may happen.
You are writhing like an eel in a bucket of slime.
The sign that you are beginning to feel you are with the back against
the wall. Good.
>
>>>>The
>>>>question is what I said above, that we are entitled to respect for our
>>>>language in Brussels. Native English speakers, or speakers of other
>>>>languages in countries where no comparable problems exist, have the
>>>>greatest difficulty in understanding what those problems are.
>>>
>>>Because they are pure sentimental and not factuel. People tend to be
>>>non-romantic but efficient in our days. Flemish nationalists as you
>>>are are just out of date romantics. Awake: we are in the XXI century
>>>and no longer in the XIXth.
>>
>>Why do you say I am a Flemish nationalist? Does one have to be a
>>nationalist to ask respect for one's mother tongue? The language is
>>one's identity also in the twenty-first century. This has nothing to
>>do with false sentiments or nationalism. When *you* talk about the
>>language situation in Belgium you are always inclined to connect it
>>with politics. Ok, politcs has been using and abusing the situation,
>>but you are not entitled to judge other people's feelings about their
>>language and certainly not to link these feelings with romanticism,
>>nationalism or politics. That is not your business.
>
>I analyze the signs of the time, and people with language problems
>like you (I am very fortunately language-immune) are mainly
>politically challenged. in North-Belgium language (Dutch in casu) is
>abused as spearhead for separatists strivings.
Now you are saying I have a language problem. This becomes amusing
were it not so sad. If anyone feels the urge of always saying that HE
has NO problem, then it is you and by doing so you show that this
matter has a paralysing effect on you. You are not able anymore to
listen to other people's just and justified arguments. No, someone
defends his language!? Suspect!! A nationalistic piece of garbage!
Vade retro Satanas!!!
>
>>>>But talk
>>>>to Norwegians, Fins, Basks, Catalonians and other nationalities and
>>>>you will hear the same complaint.
>>>
>>>I would mind to speak to belgian embassy people in Caracas in Spanish,
>>>or in Wellington NZ in English.
>>>
>>>> I also dare say that the situation
>>>>in Belgium is in a ways unique for Europe in that sense that here it
>>>>is the majority-language that has always been in the defense and not a
>>>>minor, obscure lingo spoken in a forlorn corner of the country.
>>>
>>>Because Flemish nationalists start bothering the people who speak
>>>French with them, cultivating antibodies in them against Dutch
>>>language.
>>
>>That is definitely not true and you know that!
>
>hold on, my dear...
I am not your dear.
>
>> You are saying this
>>because you know that maybe other nationals may be reading this.
>
>No I discuss with you here and now.
With possibly, just possibly, people of other nationalities and
mother-tongues reading and/or lurking.
>
>> That is not very comme il faut.
>
>Why not?
Because you are saying things that you would never dare say in a
Belgian newsgroup in a national language. You know they would make
mince meat of you.
>
>>Some Flemish fellow posters in some groups
>>that we both visit, regularly write in French when it is appropriate,
>>when a French speaking fellow countrymen addresses the group in
>>French. What you state above is definitely a generalisation of the
>>first order.
>
>I klnow that there are exceptions, burt exceptions are exceptions and
>not the rule.
That is not correct.
>
>>
>>>Dutch people from Holland are not afflicted by this inferiority
>>>complex and unlike you, do behave totally normally abroad.
>>
>>1 - The Dutchmen have never had a language problem in their country so
>>they don't know or even understand what it means to defend one's
>>language against cultural imperialism, as it used to be here until
>>after WWII.
>
>Come on....
>
>WW2 was 60 years ago.
I said until after WWII, meaning a period that I have known very well.
I still remember the sixties/seventies when problems still existed.
And that is only thirty years ago. And problems are still very acute
in the Brussels area.
>
>Wake up: we live in 2003.
His usual silencer.
Another try to fob me off with a bromide. How pathetic.
>>
>>2 - What gives you the right to judge my behaviour abroad? How can you
>>know what my behaviour abroad actually IS?
>
>I guess out from the stands you do take here.
Ah! How comfortable. He *guesses*.
>>
>>3 - If 'to behave totally normally abroad' as you say the Dutchmen do,
>>means 'to speak English in all circumstances', then they behave
>>normally.
>
>What's wrong with that?
With normal behaviour? Nothing I would say, depending what the normal
behavious is or what you understand to be an normal behaviour.
>I know: in the US I use much more often Spanish than in the old days,
>but still most of the time i use english language over there.
>
>>They even use English (or something resembling that lingo)
>>at home: "We gaan shoppen met de kids".
>
>3verything is possible but not everything is allowed" said
>Dostoyewsky.
'He could not blow his nose without moralising on the state of the
handkerchief industry', said George Orwell.
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>Fusti
>>
>>As always you can have the last word in this discussion.
>
>
>I just do answer to your burning questions.
Statements rather, statements and remarks.
>Please feel free to respind or not.
You lured me into the former.
But now I quit.
>
>You are a fine fellow IRL, since I met you twice, and nothing is
>changed in that field.
In real life I hold a glass of beer.
This is Usenet. Here I hold a bottle of vitriol, sometimes.
>
>
>Fusti
Dixit
> Dutch people from Holland are not afflicted by this inferiority
> complex and unlike you, do behave totally normally abroad.
>
>
>
> Fusti
Ahum... thanks for the compliment, Fusti, but in general many of my
fellow countrymen show these three ways of annoying behaviour:
1. They speak English as a demonstration that they have the capacity
to speak English whenever they only *suspect* to deal with a
foreigner. "Oh, look, I am international! I speak English!" Very
annoying when they detect a foreign accent in the voice of my German
friends (fluent in Dutch!) or my Flemish friends (even more fluent in
Dutch!).
We have never had the "Taalstrijd", but it is slowly coming...
2. Whenever they are in a foreign country, they deliver their
commentaries to the whole street, "because nobody understands Dutch
here."
3. The Dutch do not show weird behaviour towards the French language?
Well, you picked the wrong language! The general Dutch attitude
towards the French language is: "That is too complicated for me, will
those arrogant buggers never learn English ?". The moment some
Dutchmen *hear* (or see) French, they start to (try to) irritate the
French speaker. Remember the "discussion" between you, me and TMS on
be.politics/nl.politiek? He apparently did not notice that the
original message was cross-posted to be.politics (where of course the
French language is permitted) and then concluded that you and me were
contaminated with a virus ("virus alert" he wrote) that resulted in us
speaking "vreemd" (funny). He clearly got triggered by you, speaking
some phrases of French.
Some Dutchmen make a Flamingant look like a francophile!
F u s t i g a t o r
2003 14:21:59 -0800, in littera
<76533b9f.03032...@posting.google.com> in foro
alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>F u s t i g a t o r < Fustigator@NOT_THAT.xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>
>> Dutch people from Holland are not afflicted by this inferiority
>> complex and unlike you, do behave totally normally abroad.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fusti
>
>Ahum... thanks for the compliment, Fusti, but in general many of my
>fellow countrymen show these three ways of annoying behaviour:
>
>1. They speak English as a demonstration that they have the capacity
>to speak English whenever they only *suspect* to deal with a
>foreigner. "Oh, look, I am international! I speak English!" Very
>annoying when they detect a foreign accent in the voice of my German
>friends (fluent in Dutch!) or my Flemish friends (even more fluent in
>Dutch!).
Some do, indeed.
>We have never had the "Taalstrijd", but it is slowly coming...
You think so?
I didn't notice it too much till now the lots of times I penetrated
your country;-)
>2. Whenever they are in a foreign country, they deliver their
>commentaries to the whole street, "because nobody understands Dutch
>here."
This is true, and is very pleasant when one hears their comments on
the local population. Once I was in Spain with spanish friends and
some fat Rotterdam-based women was saying a lot of nasty things about
spaniards loudly in Dutch with the typical Rotterdam accent.
It was in a bar, and we sat at the table next to her and friends.
I first started to translate this to the spanish friends. They asked
me to protest to the woman, which I did, telling her: "dont think that
nobody ignores your language here". The Spaniards became quite nervous
and started to discuss heavily among themselves on a not to be
misunderstood way. She apologized with a face much more red than a
new muleta and left the place in a hurry. I don't think she will do
that ever once again.
>3. The Dutch do not show weird behaviour towards the French language?
>Well, you picked the wrong language! The general Dutch attitude
>towards the French language is: "That is too complicated for me, will
>those arrogant buggers never learn English ?". The moment some
>Dutchmen *hear* (or see) French, they start to (try to) irritate the
>French speaker. Remember the "discussion" between you, me and TMS on
>be.politics/nl.politiek? He apparently did not notice that the
>original message was cross-posted to be.politics (where of course the
>French language is permitted) and then concluded that you and me were
>contaminated with a virus ("virus alert" he wrote) that resulted in us
>speaking "vreemd" (funny). He clearly got triggered by you, speaking
>some phrases of French.
Oh yes! Not all Dutchmen are intelligent.;-)
But a trick that i used quite a few times in Holland (I lived and
worked there during 3 years)was, when i was together with other
Flemish people in social surroundings (in pubs and so) and in company
of Dutch fellows as well, who soon or later start to tell that the
Flemish are not as good as themselves, is to continue the conversation
with the Flemish fellows in French language. The Dutch , who +90% do
not speak French at all, feel suddenly quite uneasy and stop at once
the critics on those "dumb Belgians". For many (mainly older) Dutch
people, French language has still some kind of a cultural aura.
Most Durtch people who do have some knowlegde of French language have
a very marticular accent, the only known exception is my dearst
(dutch) wife, who has no Dutch accent when speaking French, English,
German or Spanish....
>Some Dutchmen make a Flamingant look like a francophile!
QED- see above.
Fusti
Michel Martens
be.history
Hihihi!
I wonder what Fustigator's reaction is going to be to this post,
coming from an 'uncontaminated' source. Well, we can expect the usual
writhing and floundering but one thing is for sure: he will never
admit he was wrong. He'd rather become a calvinist.
Best regards from the man who always behaves abnormally abroad
(according to Fustigator).
Michel.
F u s t i g a t o r
<rkv38vgjaqt3sqdrs...@4ax.com> in foro
alt.fan.countries.belgium (et aliis) vere scripsit quod sequitur:
>Dixit schreef op 25 Mar 2003 14:21:59 -0800 in de nieuwsgroep
>be.history
[.......]
>>Some Dutchmen make a Flamingant look like a francophile!
>
>Hihihi!
>I wonder what Fustigator's reaction is going to be to this post,
>coming from an 'uncontaminated' source.
read message ID <76533b9f.03032...@posting.google.com>
>Well, we can expect the usual
>writhing and floundering but one thing is for sure: he will never
>admit he was wrong. He'd rather become a calvinist.
That's because my arguments are generally better than yours. I am
really sorry for you that I can't help for that.;-))))
Admire rather my style instead of telling rubbish, you simple
dove!;-)
>
>Best regards from the man who always behaves abnormally abroad
>(according to Fustigator).
You have at times indeed an abnormal behaviour, but I don't think this
constitute really a danger for yourself or for others.;-)))))
>
>Michel.
Fusti