To Flee or to Resist
RM
submitted to the sword without resistance. Not all were duped by the
orders of the Ottoman government. Not all were deceived by the Young
Turks.
The scale of the Armenian genocide raises many disturbing questions,
the most distressing always focusing on the compliance of the vast
majority with the government's edicts without questioning the laws'
true intentions. The very idea of genocide assumes compliance by
society, both victim and victimizer, in meeting the objectives of the
government. It abuses the trust citizens implicitly have in their
government. Those alert enough to perceive the deception and realize
its true meaning are always few.
Organized resistance to the deportations and the massacres are known
to have occurred at only four sites. At Shabin Karahissar, Urfa, Van,
and Musa Dagh, Armenians barricaded themselves in their neighborhoods
or in defensible positions and tried to hold out. Each was a hopeless
struggle by men and women who preferred to die fighting than face the
ignominious death of massacre and starvation. The Armenians of Shabin
Karahissar were overrun and none of the resisters came out alive. Urfa
too fell to a siege and a terrible slaughter. Only at Van in historic
Armenia and at Musa Dagh in Cilicia were the Armenians rescued.
Rescued they were because Allied forces were within reach. At Musa
Dagh, French naval ships were alerted of the Armenians holding out on
the mountain by the seashore and took them on board. At Van, an
advancing Russian army broke the siege and rescued the population from
massacre, only to retreat in a month in the face of an Ottoman
offensive. With the army hurried the Armenians, certain of their fate
if left behind. In the final analysis, some thousands were rescued
from the genocide, but they too were compelled to abandon their homes.
Thus, not a community in the whole of the Ottoman Empire was left
untouched.
There were other ways of escaping the widening net of genocide.
Through feats of courage and daring, a small number of men and women
avoided death. The most common method was to take flight from the
reach of the Ottoman government. Armenians fled into the mountains,
bribed their way to a safe location, went into hiding, or pretended to
be Turks and Muslims. It took nerve to face the daily challenges, but
the certainty of the fate awaiting them if discovered sharpened their
determination. Some Armenians were even able to link up with Kurds who
were not hostile and who showed them the one assured exit from the
clutches of the genocide: passage to the Russian border. They were a
handful. They also brought the unbelievable news: the Turks were
systematically destroying the entire Armenian population of the
Ottoman Empire.
Passage from REMEMBERING AND UNDERSTANDING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
by ROUBEN PAUL ADALIAN
theo1610
>Not all Armenians went to their death without protest.
>Passage from REMEMBERING AND UNDERSTANDING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
>by ROUBEN PAUL ADALIAN
>
>http://www.genocide.am/genocide/adalian/content.htm
Get lost with your armenian loosers, please...
RM
your opinion is nothing. You are nothing.
lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b124414...@news.demon.nl>...
theo1610
>That doesnt deserve an answer, but anyway, moronic jew hater,
Wash your dirty mouth, imbecil.
>your opinion is nothing. You are nothing.
Indeed, i know what i am, so i know my place.
"I'm not a monkey and forshure no donkey.."
RM
now know what a moron you are, theo. I exclude you as a "reader" of
soc.culture.netherlands cuz you belong in helpless.villager.mentality
theo1610
I'm from a farmer's family and living in a village, cann't help it.
"Keep up the peace-work"
RM
history alone, you know nothing of it, nor can make any good
judgement. If you have one good turkish neighboor, is it enough reason
for you to defent the most fascist regime on this planet? Let me point
out that I myself do not hate turks, only pity them for being
manipulated so bruttaly by their own generals. THOSE generals deserve
the bullet not turkish people who need to know the truth about their
past.
lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b151913...@news.demon.nl>...
RM
Dare to call armenians loosers and I will make my own personal
responsibility to shove the biggest tree in your village right up your
ass (for now the verbal abuse gives me some satisfaction, but dont
count on it, Theo The Villager)
I read what ottomans did to armenians "terribile victu", innocense
murdered, purity abused and diminished. And your indifference and
inhumanity should be punishable equal to murder. You are not "dutch",
dutch have self-respect which makes them respect those who suffered in
the hands of unjustice, you are not one of them, Devil's advocate.
theo1610
>theo, go write a book about how to deal with farmership and leave
>history alone, you know nothing of it, nor can make any good
>judgement. If you have one good turkish neighboor, is it enough reason
>for you to defent the most fascist regime on this planet?
Did i...?
Btw, the usa is the most fascist.
>Let me point
>out that I myself do not hate turks, only pity them for being
>manipulated so bruttaly by their own generals.
The same for armenians and kurds..?
>THOSE generals deserve the bullet
All people who create hate and slaughter under civilians?
>not turkish people who need
>to know the truth about their past.
Do you need someone to tell you
what you have to do? I don't.
theo1610
>lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b124414...@news.demon.nl>...
>> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
>>
>> >Not all Armenians went to their death without protest.
>> >Passage from REMEMBERING AND UNDERSTANDING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
>> >by ROUBEN PAUL ADALIAN
>> >
>> >http://www.genocide.am/genocide/adalian/content.htm
>>
>> Get lost with your armenian loosers, please...
>
>Dare to call armenians loosers and I will make my own personal
>responsibility to shove the biggest tree in your village right up your
>ass (for now the verbal abuse gives me some satisfaction, but dont
>count on it, Theo The Villager)
For me all genocide cultivaters are loosers.
>I read what ottomans did to armenians "terribile victu", innocense
>murdered, purity abused and diminished.
It's terrible, but nothing special in men's history.
>And your indifference and inhumanity should be punishable equal
>to murder.
Perhaps that's the reason so many people (still) do the same
terrible things?
>You are not "dutch", dutch have self-respect which makes
>them respect those who suffered in the hands of unjustice,
>you are not one of them, Devil's advocate.
All are equal but not the same.
RM
> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
>
> >theo, go write a book about how to deal with farmership and leave
> >history alone, you know nothing of it, nor can make any good
> >judgement. If you have one good turkish neighboor, is it enough reason
> >for you to defent the most fascist regime on this planet?
>
> Did i...?
> Btw, the usa is the most fascist.
I am not an american, besides, what does US have to do with Fascist
Turkey (except giving them money and using their air bases to bomb
poor Iraqi people)
> >Let me point
> >out that I myself do not hate turks, only pity them for being
> >manipulated so bruttaly by their own generals.
>
> The same for armenians and kurds..?
Armenia is not ruled by military. Kurds dont have their STATE.
Did u fall from the moon or got too drunk last night again, villager?
> >THOSE generals deserve the bullet
>
> All people who create hate and slaughter under civilians?
Who? Be more specific.
> >not turkish people who need
> >to know the truth about their past.
>
> Do you need someone to tell you
> what you have to do? I don't.
right. villagers are known for their short sight.
thats why u are still stuck in 1610. TODAY is 2001.
RM
> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
>
> >lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b124414...@news.demon.nl>...
> >> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Not all Armenians went to their death without protest.
> >> >Passage from REMEMBERING AND UNDERSTANDING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
> >> >by ROUBEN PAUL ADALIAN
> >> >
> >> >http://www.genocide.am/genocide/adalian/content.htm
> >>
> >> Get lost with your armenian loosers, please...
> >
> >Dare to call armenians loosers and I will make my own personal
> >responsibility to shove the biggest tree in your village right up your
> >ass (for now the verbal abuse gives me some satisfaction, but dont
> >count on it, Theo The Villager)
>
> For me all genocide cultivaters are loosers.
People like you cultivate ignorance and indifference which leads to
GENOCIDE.
>
> >I read what ottomans did to armenians "terribile victu", innocense
> >murdered, purity abused and diminished.
>
> It's terrible, but nothing special in men's history.
Not for you, of course.
> >And your indifference and inhumanity should be punishable equal
> >to murder.
>
> Perhaps that's the reason so many people (still) do the same
> terrible things?
Wrong guess. They do terrible things cuz Turkey once did it and got
away with it. So other Hitlers and Pinochets followed the example of
Ottomans.
> >You are not "dutch", dutch have self-respect which makes
> >them respect those who suffered in the hands of unjustice,
> >you are not one of them, Devil's advocate.
>
> All are equal but not the same.
The only thing u are equal to is ZERO.
Guray Acar
> > Perhaps that's the reason so many people (still) do the same
> > terrible things?
>
> Wrong guess. They do terrible things cuz Turkey once did it and got
> away with it. So other Hitlers and Pinochets followed the example of
> Ottomans.
Oh yeah...So according to your logic Turkey is the only and first
country who did it, right ????
Guray Acar
RM wrote:
>
> lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b1e9180...@news.demon.nl>...
> > lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
> >
> > >theo, go write a book about how to deal with farmership and leave
> > >history alone, you know nothing of it, nor can make any good
> > >judgement. If you have one good turkish neighboor, is it enough reason
> > >for you to defent the most fascist regime on this planet?
> >
> > Did i...?
> > Btw, the usa is the most fascist.
>
> I am not an american, besides, what does US have to do with Fascist
> Turkey (except giving them money and using their air bases to bomb
> poor Iraqi people)
The same Americans protect the Kurds from Saddam..
Oh No...Now they are killing "poor Iraqi people" . ....
>
> > >Let me point
> > >out that I myself do not hate turks, only pity them for being
> > >manipulated so bruttaly by their own generals.
> >
> > The same for armenians and kurds..?
>
> Armenia is not ruled by military. Kurds dont have their STATE.
> Did u fall from the moon or got too drunk last night again, villager?
Turkey is not ruled by military either ..It's just that in Turkey
the army has got a say in politics..It is still a lot better than
middle east countries.. But no !! You have to say "It's ruled by
military !!!! They're not legal!! "
>
> > >THOSE generals deserve the bullet
> >
> > All people who create hate and slaughter under civilians?
>
> Who? Be more specific.
>
> > >not turkish people who need
> > >to know the truth about their past.
> >
> > Do you need someone to tell you
> > what you have to do? I don't.
>
> right. villagers are known for their short sight.
> thats why u are still stuck in 1610. TODAY is 2001.
Yeah right RM ....This is 2001 ...This is the times when people like
you who have lost the war 100 years ago to scream "GENOCIDE GENOCIDE
GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE
GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE
GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE
GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE"
Ahmede Xane
> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
>
> >lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b124414...@news.demon.nl>...
> >> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Not all Armenians went to their death without protest.
> >> >Passage from REMEMBERING AND UNDERSTANDING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
> >> >by ROUBEN PAUL ADALIAN
> >> >
> >> >http://www.genocide.am/genocide/adalian/content.htm
> >>
> >> Get lost with your armenian loosers, please...
> >
> >Dare to call armenians loosers and I will make my own personal
> >responsibility to shove the biggest tree in your village right up your
> >ass (for now the verbal abuse gives me some satisfaction, but dont
> >count on it, Theo The Villager)
>
> For me all genocide cultivaters are loosers.
commite genocide are heros, right?
> >I read what ottomans did to armenians "terribile victu", innocense
> >murdered, purity abused and diminished.
>
> It's terrible, but nothing special in men's history.
population which is being count with billions, is negligible. Yea,
nothing special.
> >And your indifference and inhumanity should be punishable equal
> >to murder.
>
> Perhaps that's the reason so many people (still) do the same
> terrible things?
still similar things can occur.
> >You are not "dutch", dutch have self-respect which makes
> >them respect those who suffered in the hands of unjustice,
> >you are not one of them, Devil's advocate.
>
> All are equal but not the same.
Because you think one Turk is equivalent to the whole world, right?
So if one Turk is murdered, to you someone killed billions of people.
That is logic of your awkward equation
Guray Acar
Ahmede Xane wrote:
>
> lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b1e9228...@news.demon.nl>...
> > lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
> >
> > >lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b124414...@news.demon.nl>...
> > >> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Not all Armenians went to their death without protest.
> > >> >Passage from REMEMBERING AND UNDERSTANDING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
> > >> >by ROUBEN PAUL ADALIAN
> > >> >
> > >> >http://www.genocide.am/genocide/adalian/content.htm
> > >>
> > >> Get lost with your armenian loosers, please...
> > >
> > >Dare to call armenians loosers and I will make my own personal
> > >responsibility to shove the biggest tree in your village right up your
> > >ass (for now the verbal abuse gives me some satisfaction, but dont
> > >count on it, Theo The Villager)
> >
> > For me all genocide cultivaters are loosers.
> Nice logic! So to you, The victims of genocide are loosers and those
> commite genocide are heros, right?
Allow me tell you what I have infered from his words..
I reckon he thinks genocides have been the results of struggles
among communities..And the fact is that usual the weaker or looser
one of the communities have been exposed to massacres. Moreover,
he never said that the communities who commit the massacres are the
heros..Read it again..I can't see why you came up with this
conclusion..
> > >I read what ottomans did to armenians "terribile victu", innocense
> > >murdered, purity abused and diminished.
> >
> > It's terrible, but nothing special in men's history.
> Well to your logic, to compare a couple of millions to world
> population which is being count with billions, is negligible. Yea,
> nothing special.
Again, in my view, he implies that what RM has been complaining about
is neither the first nor the last thing in history..Massacres have
been common in mankind's history since the beginning..In fact almost
all nations have committed massacres on other nations if you go back
in the history deep enough...Even the most "paeceful" ones have done
it..
> > >And your indifference and inhumanity should be punishable equal
> > >to murder.
> >
> > Perhaps that's the reason so many people (still) do the same
> > terrible things?
> Because all previous genocides are remain unpunished, that is why
> still similar things can occur.
> > >You are not "dutch", dutch have self-respect which makes
> > >them respect those who suffered in the hands of unjustice,
> > >you are not one of them, Devil's advocate.
> >
> > All are equal but not the same.
>
> Because you think one Turk is equivalent to the whole world, right?
> So if one Turk is murdered, to you someone killed billions of people.
> That is logic of your awkward equation
Well, he didn't say that did he ??? ...Read it again..Did he say
such a thing ?? ..Read his other posts...He never said it ...
It all comes to the same question..What is the motive of these
complaints ?? ..
a) possible territorial expansion of Armenia,
b) possible weakening of Turkey, and a potential political climate
for an independent Kurdistan,
c) possible territorial demand on western Anatolia by the Greek
government,
d) none..Just innocent, kind sympathy for humanity..
theo1610
>lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b1e9228...@news.demon.nl>...
>> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
>>
>> >lievebehee...@theo1610.demon.nl (theo1610) wrote in message news:<3b124414...@news.demon.nl>...
>> >> lay...@skim.com (RM) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Not all Armenians went to their death without protest.
>> >> >Passage from REMEMBERING AND UNDERSTANDING THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
>> >> >by ROUBEN PAUL ADALIAN
>> >> >
>> >> >http://www.genocide.am/genocide/adalian/content.htm
>> >>
>> >> Get lost with your armenian loosers, please...
>> >
>> >Dare to call armenians loosers and I will make my own personal
>> >responsibility to shove the biggest tree in your village right up your
>> >ass (for now the verbal abuse gives me some satisfaction, but dont
>> >count on it, Theo The Villager)
>>
>> For me all genocide cultivaters are loosers.
>Nice logic! So to you, The victims of genocide are loosers and those
>commite genocide are heros, right?
No, all genocide _cultivators_ are loosers.
>> >I read what ottomans did to armenians "terribile victu", innocense
>> >murdered, purity abused and diminished.
>>
>> It's terrible, but nothing special in men's history.
>Well to your logic, to compare a couple of millions to world
>population which is being count with billions, is negligible. Yea,
>nothing special.
I said it's nothing special in men's history.
>> >And your indifference and inhumanity should be punishable equal
>> >to murder.
>>
>> Perhaps that's the reason so many people (still) do the same
>> terrible things?
>Because all previous genocides are remain unpunished, that is why
>still similar things can occur.
??????
>> >You are not "dutch", dutch have self-respect which makes
>> >them respect those who suffered in the hands of unjustice,
>> >you are not one of them, Devil's advocate.
>>
>> All are equal but not the same.
>
>Because you think one Turk is equivalent to the whole world, right?
I don't think a turk is better or worst as for example a dutchman.
>So if one Turk is murdered, to you someone killed billions of people.
Perhaps in turkish eyes/harts but not in my eyes/hart.
>That is logic of your awkward equation
I'm afraid it's a sad logic for many many people.
Guray Acar
> >
> > Perhaps that's the reason so many people (still) do the same
> > terrible things?
> Because all previous genocides are remain unpunished, that is why
> still similar things can occur.
That's such a baseless statement..The only genocide that was
recognized by the whole world was punished in the most cruel
manner..Years after the Jewish Holocaust, German Nazi officers are
still being searched for committing war crimes..You can see a movie
about Jewish genocide every three days on the average..Germans had to
pay a lot of compensation for the holocaust survivors..Every human
being damned the Nazis for 46 years..
YET, the ethnic cleansing, raping parties, massacres, and the
same sort of stuff went on in Balkans and Africa years after WW II ...
Humanity didn't learn anything...We waited for so long time to
intervene to what was going on in Balkans..We never did anything
during the massacres in Ruanda..
When you try so hard to put the whole blame on one nation, the Turks
(the scapegoats of Europe), you quickly run out of your credibility...
It becomes obvious that your intentions to blame a nation is stronger
than your mercy for another nation..If you know what I mean.... :)
Guray Acar
> > Perhaps that's the reason so many people (still) do the same
> > terrible things?
> Because all previous genocides are remain unpunished, that is why
> still similar things can occur.
In fact, if you made this statement intentionally, it means a lot..
Germany already got punished for committing the only genocide
that was regognized by the whole world....Now, this didn't stop
massacres after Germany.. The question is what is the punishment in
your mind for the Turks ??? :))
RM
and braiwashed nationalistic race. They dont deserve to be punished.
Their GOVERNMENT its the one who should be held responsible for
re-writing history and waisting the money on propoganda which they
better spend to feed their starving nation (not the kurds, they (by
turkish logic) are dogs and dont deserve to be fed) (just shoot them
all, did a pretty good job so far- 30.000 villages burned to the
ground. not bad, Turkey, not bad)
Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B203A6C...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
RM
so I can do EVIL without punishment. Good logic, turk.
Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B1FB9B4...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
RM
> Yeah right RM ....This is 2001 ...This is the times when people like
> you who have lost the war 100 years ago to scream "GENOCIDE GENOCIDE
> GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE
> GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE
> GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE
> GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE GENOCIDE"
>
And Turkey spent all these years COMMITING one. Blah, moron.
theo1610
>30.000 villages burned to the ground. not bad, Turkey, not bad)
?????????
Guray Acar
to be 3000 villages in propaganda world..Now it is 30 000 villages
thanks to your powerful imagination..
Second correction..Kurds are not dogs for us ..Please do not get
nasty in such a manner to support your stupid propaganda..As a matter
of fact, I prefer Kurds to millions of people like you..
Third correction..The question was not directed to you..So by
attempting to answer it, I assume that you agree with Ahmed Xane
in his statement :
> > > Because all previous genocides are remain unpunished, that is why
> > > still similar things can occur.
Question...How are you planning to punish the government ? ..I mean
what punishment are you going to give to the government that wasn't
given to the Nazi German government in 1945 so that as Ahmed Xane
stated similar cannot occur again ??..
Guray Acar
Still the same tricks..First of all, even if 1915 incidents can be
considered to be a genocide, Turkey cannot be blamed for it ...The
founder of the country was fighting the British in Dardanelles at
those years..The people that are allegedly guilty of the genocide
left the country or died long time ago..
So please explain to us the reason why you are trying to smear the
blame on the new Turkish state as well..
Guray Acar
RM wrote:
>
> Yes, excuse me being EVIL, there is plenty of other EVIL in the world,
> so I can do EVIL without punishment. Good logic, turk.
You hardly have any right to talk about logic, sir..Look what
you have written:
> > > Wrong guess. They do terrible things cuz Turkey once did it and got
> > > away with it. So other Hitlers and Pinochets followed the example of
> > > Ottomans.
Look what I have asked:
> > Oh yeah...So according to your logic Turkey is the only and first
> > country who did it, right ????
Let me help you..My question is whether the Ottoman Empire was the
first state which allegedly committed a genocide and got away with it
so that Hitler, Pinochet, Serbians, Ruandans continued it ...
T C
answer. First, it isn't smearing, it's based on the concepts put forth
in the Nuremberg Trials. The legal concept there was that covering up,
excusing or denying genocide is the same as actively participating in
it. Yes, this gives the US government culpability for the same genocide
on the same grounds, I actually do advocate equal justice and am
offended that my government refuses to give support to a world court on
crimes against humanity. By this don't assume I'm advocating the
destruction of either government or any lives being taken, it's just
that a strong and consistent reaction to such crimes is the only way to
reduce or prevent them (and this has never been tried).
RM
> First correction...It started with 300 villages..Then it turned out
> to be 3000 villages in propaganda world..Now it is 30 000 villages
> thanks to your powerful imagination..
Sorry about mistake. Killing 100 people is as worst as killing a 10000
for me.
> Second correction..Kurds are not dogs for us
You are a hypocrit. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. you are treating them
like dogs, that says it all.
..Please do not get
> nasty in such a manner to support your stupid propaganda..As a matter
> of fact, I prefer Kurds to millions of people like you..
ANd i wouldnt give a penny for your life, poor brainwashed turk.
> Third correction..The question was not directed to you..So by
> attempting to answer it, I assume that you agree with Ahmed Xane
> in his statement :
> > > > Because all previous genocides are remain unpunished, that is why
> > > > still similar things can occur.
>
> Question...How are you planning to punish the government ? ..I mean
> what punishment are you going to give to the government that wasn't
> given to the Nazi German government in 1945 so that as Ahmed Xane
> stated similar cannot occur again ??..
Which side was Turkey during the WWII?
I rest my case.
Guray Acar
RM wrote:
>
> Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B20BC90...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > First correction...It started with 300 villages..Then it turned out
> > to be 3000 villages in propaganda world..Now it is 30 000 villages
> > thanks to your powerful imagination..
>
> Sorry about mistake. Killing 100 people is as worst as killing a 10000
> for me.
Forget about the mistake..
Killing one person is bad enough..But 100 people is really different
from 10000 ..
>
> > Second correction..Kurds are not dogs for us
>
> You are a hypocrit. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. you are treating them
> like dogs, that says it all.
Tell me about unfairly treated Kurds, I understand it..Yet, by
no means you have the right to use the word "dogs" for a minority
in my country..I had way more Kurdish friends you can ever meet..
Commenting about my country doesn't allow to use such strong words...
>
> ..Please do not get
> > nasty in such a manner to support your stupid propaganda..As a matter
> > of fact, I prefer Kurds to millions of people like you..
>
> ANd i wouldnt give a penny for your life, poor brainwashed turk.
Cool ....
>
> > Third correction..The question was not directed to you..So by
> > attempting to answer it, I assume that you agree with Ahmed Xane
> > in his statement :
> > > > > Because all previous genocides are remain unpunished, that is why
> > > > > still similar things can occur.
> >
> > Question...How are you planning to punish the government ? ..I mean
> > what punishment are you going to give to the government that wasn't
> > given to the Nazi German government in 1945 so that as Ahmed Xane
> > stated similar cannot occur again ??..
>
> Which side was Turkey during the WWII?
>
> I rest my case.
You rest nothing man..Seriously, I thought you had better arguments..
I asked a very clear question..You haven't answered yet..
Turkey was officially against Germans in WWII ..But I say "officially",
because Turkey didn't join the war till the end..And Turkey had
EVERY FUCKING RIGHT to do so..Italy was OFFICIALLY on the German side..
Scandinavians gave a lot of support to German troops, though much
reluctantly..The Americans waited for a year before joining the war..
They wouldn't, if their transatlantic ships were not bombed..They
even needed a good pull on the shoulder from the Japanese at Pearl
Harbour to be convinced to join against the Germans..The other
countries in Europe; nobody asked their view anyways, Germany just
invaded them...The English just stood on their island and said
"You can't invade us naany naany boo boo " until the Normandy..
The Irish was supporting the Germans, because they were against the
English..It was really the Russians that stopped the Germans ..
So what now..What was your case, that the you rested ? ..
Answer my question, instead of putting baseless blamings...
Guray Acar
Correct me if I am wrong, we are not talking about just blaming a
group of people..We are talking about compensations, territorial
demands, international damning days..The question is by no means
only historical..There are a lot of political dimensions..That's
why I asked why people blame the Republican Turkish government for
something Ottoman Empire allegedly did...
If there were no political dimensions, there wouldn't be so much
noise..What Armenians claim is not the first nor the last in history..
And please let me know one other thing: according to the
Armenian arguments, were Armenians allowed to leave the Ottoman
territory if they wanted ???
T C
to see what parts of the picture are available (parts are complex enough
that there will always be pieces missing). The US was still
shell-shocked from WWI (as was much of Europe, keep in mind far worse
trench and gas warfare there than anywhere else) and isolationist partly
due to the depression but the political leadership got involved early
(to what degree they could) although nobody now excuses our sitting back
as long as we did. Britain didn't just sit back, it seems to me there is
a small patch of land called North Africa and another one called Italy,
that part of your statement is just false. Sweden is difficult mainly
because the evidence leans strongly towards their being pro Allies but
they were in no position to implement such a policy (but that leaves the
question of just how they got away with it, to be covered soon). Turkey
was considered neutral to the Axis at the same level (determination not
to violate neutrality) as Spain and Switzerland. Spain was Fascist,
Switzerland was both vital as their banker and of the type of terrain
that they couldn't afford an invasion. From a policy perspective it
seems clear to me that at least influential portions of Turkish
leadership were sympathetic to the Nazis (evidenced by laws passed
against minorities at the time) but the government as a whole was either
conflicted or unwilling to commit. Turkey only became anti German in any
manner in the war after there was no possible chance the Germans would
win, this clearly leads to more than one possible conclusion. What makes
this entire dynamic interesting is there is a very good chance that the
Nazis would have done better in their war effort had Turkey chosen
EITHER side as opposed to neutrality, as either would have quickly led
to them having greater access to oil.
T C
greater downside to genocide recognition than actually exists, you seem
to be accepting the lies of the Turkish government and the statements by
radicals on both sides. Compensation could well be involved but not in
the sense you seem to have been led to believe. It is generally accepted
that property isn't taken from people who obtained it legally to
compensate ones from whom it was taken illegally, this makes most of the
compensation argument a lie. If we are talking about specific resources
still held by those who took them illegally (or their heirs)
compensation has validity. Combined with this could be certain other
measures being counteracted but this really doesn't constitute
compensation, more a matter of normalization. Holocaust memorial day
isn't anti German, the concept that a day recognizing the genocide of
the Armenian genocide can be construed as anti Turkish absent Turkish
denial is pure rubbish. In other words the ONLY aspect of recognition
that can have any harm for Turkey is denial, this is (by UN definition)
continuation of the genocide.
I'm uncertain what you are getting at. If you mean freedom to leave
during the "relocations" there was exactly the same level of freedom in
this as during the "relocations" to Treblinka.
Guray Acar
because during my stay in Britain I observed an attitude that implies
that Britain was the main country that stopped Germany..When I came
to US, I observed a similar attitude, which makes feel more sympathy
for the British view now..
As for Turkey, unless you tell me more about the laws that passed
in the Turkish essembly during WWII, I cannot see any reason why
one can place WWII Turkey on the same side with Nazi Germany..
Turkey was one of the few countries where Jews were welcomed before,
during, and after the war, while there were negative feelings against
the jews in most other European countries besides Germany..
The bottomline is that, unless you come up with more arguments, Turkey
did nothing that helped Germany..
One final remark is that if Turkey joined the war against Germany, in
contrast to your predictions, it wouldn't be easy at all for the
Germans to pass through Anatolia..With almost 1200 km distance between
Balkans and Syria, and with two very high mountain ranges on the way,
Anatolia would just be another Russia for the German army..If Germans
thought otherwise, they wouldn't hesitate in invading Turkey, as they
didn't hesitate in most other countries..I think Germans were just happy
enough with Turkey's neutrality..
REAL
Guray Acar wrote:
> I was a bit harsh to the British..I can accept that..It's partly
> because during my stay in Britain I observed an attitude that implies
> that Britain was the main country that stopped Germany..When I came
> to US, I observed a similar attitude, which makes feel more sympathy
> for the British view now..
>
> As for Turkey, unless you tell me more about the laws that passed
> in the Turkish essembly during WWII, I cannot see any reason why
> one can place WWII Turkey on the same side with Nazi Germany..
>
> Turkey was one of the few countries where Jews were welcomed before,
> during, and after the war, while there were negative feelings against
> the jews in most other European countries besides Germany..
>
> The bottomline is that, unless you come up with more arguments, Turkey
> did nothing that helped Germany..
>
> One final remark is that if Turkey joined the war against Germany, in
> contrast to your predictions, it wouldn't be easy at all for the
> Germans to pass through Anatolia..With almost 1200 km distance between
> Balkans and Syria, and with two very high mountain ranges on the way,
> Anatolia would just be another Russia for the German army..If Germans
> thought otherwise, they wouldn't hesitate in invading Turkey, as they
> didn't hesitate in most other countries..I think Germans were just happy
> enough with Turkey's neutrality..
And happy to have their war machine supported by the Turkish government as well:
Adolf Hitler established the terms of Germany's observance of Turkish neutrality in a letter to
President Inonu in March 1941, at the time the Nazi forces invaded Yugoslavia and moved through Bulgaria
to crush Greece. The inviolability of Turkey's frontier would be guaranteed and German troops would be
allowed no closer than 20 miles from the Bulgarian-Turkish border. The German-Turkish Treaty of
Friendship of June 18, 1941, confirmed these guarantees of the integrity of the Turkish borders and
added the mutual undertaking to make no hostile action, directly or indirectly, against each other. (The
negotiation of
the agreement is described in Franz von Papen, Memoirs (London, 1952), pp. 471-473.)
Chromite ore (from which is derived chromium, an element essential for the manufacture of stainless
steel and refractory brick) was evaluated by American experts as one of the few raw materials that were
essential for the German war industry and for which there were no fully adequate sources within German
territory. (The U. S. Army and Navy Munitions Board listed chromium as one of seven strategic metals
needed for the war effort. The others were antimony, manganese, mercury, nickel, tin, and tungsten.
(Arthur Kemp, "Chromium: A Strategic Metal," Harvard Business Review (Winter 1942), pp. 199-212)
At the outbreak of the war, Turkey mined approximately 190,000 tons of chromite, or about a fifth of the
world's total output, cited in Edward Weisband, Turkish Foreign Policy 1943-1945: Small State Diplomacy
and Great Power Politics (Princeton, N. J., 1973), p. 110) )
In October 1943 the Turkish Government concluded another agreement with Germany under which Turkey would
provide up to 135,000 tons of chromite in 1944. Allied observers estimated deliveries to Germany of
Turkish chromite amounted to nearly
44,000 tons in 1943 and more than 8,000 tons in January 1944 alone, despite the Allied preclusive buying
program. Allied diplomatic representatives protested to the Turkish Government. ("Preclusive Operations
in the Neutral Countries in World War II," March 20, 1947, pp. 241-244, ibid., Office of the
Administrator, Records Analysis Division, Historical Monographs Prepared Outside the Division, Box 5.)
German Minister for Armaments and Munitions Albert Speer, who reported on the current German inventory
of alloy metals in a memorandum to Hitler on November 10, 1943, and concluded: "Hence the element in
shortest supply is chromium. This is
especially grave since chromium is indispensable to a highly developed armaments industry. Should
supplies from Turkey be cut off, the stockpile of chromium is sufficient only for 5.6 months. The
manufacture of planes, tanks, motor vehicles, tank shells, U-boats, and almost the entire gamut of
artillery would have to cease from one to three months after this deadline, since by then the reserves
in the distributions channels would be used up." In his memoirs, Speer explained further that the
conclusion in
his memorandum "meant no more or less than that the war would be over approximately ten months after the
loss of the Balkans." (Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs, translated by Richard and Clara
Winston (New York and Toronto, 1970), pp. 316-317.)
Shortly after Germany's defeat, the United States was able to confirm from Reichsbank records that the
gold sold on the Turkish free market by the Deutsche Bank consisted not only of looted central bank gold
but also, in all probability,
of gold looted from individual victims of Nazi persecution. The Reichsbank's ledgers of gold bars,
captured by U. S. forces, made it possible to identify the source of the gold ingots that the Deutsche
Bank purchased from the Reichsbank. In 1946 a U. S. study of 1.582 metric tons of gold bars released to
the Deutsche Bank by the Reichsbank during the War concluded that 339 kilograms came from "specific
conquered areas," primarily Belgium, while another 904 kilograms came from "other
questionable sources." The principal source of gold in this latter category was the "Melmer" account in
which the SS deposited gold bars, coins, jewelry, and dental fillings that it robbed from its Jewish
and non-Jewish victims at the killing centers and concentration camps. The 1946 U. S. study determined
that 673 kilograms of the gold ingots ($ 757,000) that had been released by the Reichsbank to the
Deutsche Bank came from the Reichsbank's Melmer account. It further found that 325
kilograms of this gold ($ 366,000) had been delivered directly to the Reichsbank by the SS in gold bar
form, while the remaining 348 kilograms of ingots ($ 391,500) had been re-smelted by the Degussa company
from gold items deposited by
the SS. Thus, 42.5 percent of the 1.582 metric tons of gold ingots ($ 1.8 million) known to have been
purchased by the Deutsche Bank from the Reichsbank consisted of gold looted from individual victims of
Nazi persecution. (Document
IX-13 in Documentary Appendix to the May 1997 Eizenstat Report.)
Similarly, a postwar study of Reichsbank records conducted by Albert Thoms, wartime head of the
Reichsbank's Precious Metals Department, showed that the Reichsbank also sold gold bars from the Melmer
account to the Dresdner Bank during the period from May to November 1943.62 Consequently, the gold from
the Dresdner Bank that the Swiss Legation turned over to the Turkish Government in September 1945 may
have included gold looted by the SS from its victims.
(Herbert Herzog microfilm, Vienna, Austria.)
The basic objectives of joint U. S.-British wartime economic operations and policies toward neutral
Turkey were to minimize Turkey's contribution to the German war economy and to supply civilian and
military equipment in order to enable Turkey
to become an active participant with the Allies in the War. In order to prevent Germany from acquiring
strategic raw materials from Turkey, Britain and the United States adopted a program of preclusive
purchases of Turkish chromite and other minerals and withholding certain supplies from Turkey in return
for Turkey's ban on exports of similar items to Germany.
("Support Purchase Program in Turkey," May 28, 1945, RG 169, Office of the Administrator, Records
Analysis Division, Historical Monographs Prepared Outside the Division, Box 5.)
RM
> RM wrote:
> >
> > Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B20BC90...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > > First correction...It started with 300 villages..Then it turned out
> > > to be 3000 villages in propaganda world..Now it is 30 000 villages
> > > thanks to your powerful imagination..
> >
> > Sorry about mistake. Killing 100 people is as worst as killing a 10000
> > for me.
>
> Forget about the mistake..
> Killing one person is bad enough..But 100 people is really different
> from 10000 ..
How's that?
> > > > Second correction..Kurds are not dogs for us
> >
> > You are a hypocrit. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. you are treating them
> > like dogs, that says it all.
>
> Tell me about unfairly treated Kurds, I understand it..Yet, by
> no means you have the right to use the word "dogs" for a minority
> in my country..I had way more Kurdish friends you can ever meet..
> Commenting about my country doesn't allow to use such strong words...
Listen, apparently you choose your words carefully, but I aint buying
this sh*t, "unfairly treated kurds"="another genocide". Its enough to
take a close look at what happens to kurds in Turkey to understand
that "unfairly treated kurds" is NOT the definition which should be
used. You might have kurdish friends, but that does not mean your
country is not conducting a genocide (again). *what one has to do with
another, I fail to see the connection.
> > ..Please do not get
> > > nasty in such a manner to support your stupid propaganda..As a matter
> > > of fact, I prefer Kurds to millions of people like you..
> >
> > ANd i wouldnt give a penny for your life, poor brainwashed turk.
>
> Cool ....
>
> >
> > > Third correction..The question was not directed to you..So by
> > > attempting to answer it, I assume that you agree with Ahmed Xane
> > > in his statement :
> > > > > > Because all previous genocides are remain unpunished, that is why
> > > > > > still similar things can occur.
> > >
> > > Question...How are you planning to punish the government ? ..I mean
> > > what punishment are you going to give to the government that wasn't
> > > given to the Nazi German government in 1945 so that as Ahmed Xane
> > > stated similar cannot occur again ??..
> >
> > Which side was Turkey during the WWII?
> >
> > I rest my case.
I shouldnt have mentioned WWII, since we are talking about Armenian
Genocide 1915-1923. Turkish troops were virtually under German command
in WWI, Germans (Nazis to be in just another 10 years) trained Turks
and learned from them as well. Now what did they teach and what did
they learn we all know. What they taught ended up with 1.500.000 dead
armenians (greeks and other christians), while what they learned ended
up with millions of dead jews.
> You rest nothing man..Seriously, I thought you had better arguments..
>
> I asked a very clear question..You haven't answered yet..
>
> Turkey was officially against Germans in WWII ..But I say "officially",
> because Turkey didn't join the war till the end..And Turkey had
> EVERY FUCKING RIGHT to do so..Italy was OFFICIALLY on the German side..
> Scandinavians gave a lot of support to German troops, though much
> reluctantly..The Americans waited for a year before joining the war..
> They wouldn't, if their transatlantic ships were not bombed..They
> even needed a good pull on the shoulder from the Japanese at Pearl
> Harbour to be convinced to join against the Germans..The other
> countries in Europe; nobody asked their view anyways, Germany just
> invaded them...The English just stood on their island and said
> "You can't invade us naany naany boo boo " until the Normandy..
> The Irish was supporting the Germans, because they were against the
> English..It was really the Russians that stopped the Germans ..
> So what now..What was your case, that the you rested ? ..
> Answer my question, instead of putting baseless blamings...
Same sh*t. You dont pay attention to the argument, your logic is sick.
"I am EVIL, I can conduct EVIL since there is PLENTY of OTHER EVIL in
the world"
Does fascist Italy justify Turkey being fascist during the war? No!
You made ur choice, which is not a choice really, its your nature.
(fox and the scorpion story once again)
Guray Acar
T C wrote:
>
> It depends on how you define things, but clearly you assume a far
> greater downside to genocide recognition than actually exists, you seem
> to be accepting the lies of the Turkish government and the statements by
> radicals on both sides.
I agree that the problem has been so much political rather than
historical, that both sides resort to exaggerrations in their
arguments..
> I'm uncertain what you are getting at. If you mean freedom to leave
> during the "relocations" there was exactly the same level of freedom in
> this as during the "relocations" to Treblinka.
I am not knowledged about your reference; "relocations" in Treblinka..
Please let me know more about what you mean..
Guray Acar
REAL, this is the same story..With all due respect, I am not gonna
buy your story that WWII Turkey was supporting Nazi Germans just
because they sold chromite to them ...Russian Armenians have had
more contribution to German advances in Russia..Irish seamen had
supported German boats against the English..So please, come up with
something more credible..
Guray Acar
RM wrote:
>
> Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B2296BF...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > RM wrote:
> > >
> > > Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B20BC90...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > > > First correction...It started with 300 villages..Then it turned out
> > > > to be 3000 villages in propaganda world..Now it is 30 000 villages
> > > > thanks to your powerful imagination..
> > >
> > > Sorry about mistake. Killing 100 people is as worst as killing a 10000
> > > for me.
> >
> > Forget about the mistake..
> > Killing one person is bad enough..But 100 people is really different
> > from 10000 ..
>
> How's that?
The consequences in the international platform are different..
If I assume your logic, then I have the right to blame Armenians for
having massacred some Turkish villages in Northeastern Anatolia
with THE SAME INTENSITY as you blame the Ottoman government for
having killed 1 million Armenians...With you logic they are both
GENOCIDEs....
>
> > > > > Second correction..Kurds are not dogs for us
> > >
> > > You are a hypocrit. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. you are treating them
> > > like dogs, that says it all.
> >
> > Tell me about unfairly treated Kurds, I understand it..Yet, by
> > no means you have the right to use the word "dogs" for a minority
> > in my country..I had way more Kurdish friends you can ever meet..
> > Commenting about my country doesn't allow to use such strong words...
>
> Listen, apparently you choose your words carefully, but I aint buying
> this sh*t,
Well this is the WHOLE ISSUE I have been expecting you to realise..
Wording is exteremely important in the way you explain something
historical..
"unfairly treated kurds"="another genocide". Its enough to
> take a close look at what happens to kurds in Turkey to understand
> that "unfairly treated kurds" is NOT the definition which should be
> used. You might have kurdish friends, but that does not mean your
> country is not conducting a genocide (again). *what one has to do with
> another, I fail to see the connection.
And if you can establish the equality
"unfairly treated kurds"="another genocide",
then you either don't know what you are talking about, or you are
just another genocide cultivator..
Kurds in Turkey have been deprived from preserving their national
identity..This is not genocide..If it is, then what blacks suffered
in US till 1970s, what Turks suffered in Bulgaria in 1990s, what
muslims suffered in Yugoslavia, what Irish suffered in Britain
till 1916, what Gypsies suffered in all Europe are ALL GENOCIDES...
I can give tens of other examples, but I am tired..
Are you happy now ????
T C
kept up the facade as long as possible (to the victims, general
population, red cross, etc.). The "relocations" in 1915-16 had the same
freedom to emigrate (this is why the survivors were all ones who were
helped by locals after being "relocated" or ones saved from the
"relocations" by Turks of good will). Treblinka was in operation the
longest of the major death camps so I used that example. Before and
after this there were varying degrees of ability to emigrate but never
freely.
T C
villages WERE crimes against humanity and should be recognized as such,
unfortunately this issue is usually brought forward claiming they caused
the genocide which was already nearly over.
The definition of genocide includes what is often called cultural
genocide, although I agree with it being in the treaty on genocide
(otherwise such crimes are encouraged) I agree that different terms
should be used for the 2 offenses.
REAL
Guray Acar wrote:
> REAL, this is the same story..With all due respect, I am not gonna
> buy your story that WWII Turkey was supporting Nazi Germans just
> because they sold chromite to them ...
It's not "my story" as you say.
read below:
In October 1943 the Turkish Government concluded another agreement with Germany under which Turkey would
provide up to 135,000 tons of chromite in 1944. Allied observers estimated deliveries to Germany of Turkish
chromite amounted to nearly 44,000 tons in 1943 and more than 8,000 tons in January 1944 alone, despite the
Allied preclusive buying program. Allied diplomatic representatives protested to the Turkish Government.
("Preclusive Operations in the Neutral Countries in World War II," March 20, 1947, pp. 241-244, ibid., Office
of the Administrator, Records Analysis Division, Historical Monographs Prepared Outside the Division, Box 5.)
German Minister for Armaments and Munitions Albert Speer, who reported on the current German inventory of
alloy metals in a memorandum to Hitler on November 10, 1943, and concluded: "Hence the element in shortest
supply is chromium. This is
especially grave since chromium is indispensable to a highly developed armaments industry. Should supplies
from Turkey be cut off, the stockpile of chromium is sufficient only for 5.6 months. The manufacture of
planes, tanks, motor vehicles, tank shells, U-boats, and almost the entire gamut of artillery would have to
cease from one to three months after this deadline, since by then the reserves in the distributions channels
would be used up." In his memoirs, Speer explained further that the conclusion in his memorandum "meant no
more or less than that the war would be over approximately ten months after the loss of the Balkans." (Albert
Speer, Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs, translated by Richard and Clara Winston (New York and Toronto, 1970),
pp. 316-317.)
> Russian Armenians have had
> more contribution to German advances in Russia..Irish seamen had
> supported German boats against the English..So please, come up with
> something more credible..
Where do you base this on? The quotes provided are real and very credible, check out the site Adanali referred
to and you will see them. Now where is your information from, how credible are they?
As for Russian Armenians as you say, now how exactly were they contributing to German advances in Russia???
Had NAZI forces even reached Armenia? Armenia was part of the Soviet Union, before during and after this time,
it was known as the Armenian SSR (Soviet Socialist Republic). The Soviet Union was at war with the NAZIS.
As for Irish seamen, they were just seamen, NOT a government actively assisting the NAZI war machine. I have
even heard from friends who study WW2 history that after the Battle of Britain, Hitler offered the Irish
government Northern Ireland if they would allow NAZI Germany to land their troops in Ireland and invade
England on two fronts. Ireland after some time stalling in their decision ultimately rejected it.
Now if Turkey was a true neutral, then why was it actively supplying the NAZI war industry with chromium which
even the NAZIS and ALLIES themselves say how vital it is. The Turkish government was neutral in the sense it
didn't fight as an ally of NAZI Germany but they were supplying NAZI Germany with a vital resource in their
means to wage war as their own minister for Armaments and Munitions says.
Why did the German Minister for Armaments and Munitions Albert Speer say "Should supplies from Turkey be cut
off, the stockpile of chromium is sufficient only for 5.6 months. The manufacture of planes, tanks, motor
vehicles, tank shells, U-boats, and almost the entire gamut of artillery would have to cease from one to three
months after this deadline, since by then the reserves in the distributions channels would be used up."
Who can calculate the cost of prolonged NAZI hold on occupied peoples? If The Turkish government supply of
such a vital resource to the NAZI war industry isn't support, then what is it? really what exactly is it?
Why did the allies protest to the Turkish government for this sale of Chromium? Why did the Allies highlight
its importance so much so that they created a preclusive purchasing program in response to Turkey's supply of
Chromium to NAZI Germany?
Chromite ore (from which is derived chromium, an element essential for the manufacture of stainless steel and
refractory brick) was evaluated by American experts as one of the few raw materials that were essential for
the German war industry and for which there were no fully adequate sources within German territory. (The U. S.
Army and Navy Munitions Board listed chromium as one of seven strategic metals needed for the war effort. The
others were antimony, manganese, mercury, nickel, tin, and tungsten. (Arthur Kemp, "Chromium: A Strategic
Metal," Harvard Business Review (Winter 1942), pp. 199-212)
At the outbreak of the war, Turkey mined approximately 190,000 tons of chromite, or about a fifth of the
world's total output, cited in Edward Weisband, Turkish Foreign Policy 1943-1945: Small State Diplomacy and
Great Power Politics (Princeton, N. J., 1973), p. 110) )
It says that Chromium was "one of the few raw materials that were essential for the German war industry and
for which there were no fully adequate sources within German territory"...... Now seriously, was the Turkish
government really behaving as a neutral?
> > And happy to have their war machine supported by the Turkish government as well:
> >
> > Adolf Hitler established the terms of Germany's observance of Turkish neutrality in a letter to
> > President Inonu in March 1941, at the time the Nazi forces invaded Yugoslavia and moved through Bulgaria
> > to crush Greece. The inviolability of Turkey's frontier would be guaranteed and German troops would be
> > allowed no closer than 20 miles from the Bulgarian-Turkish border. The German-Turkish Treaty of
> > Friendship of June 18, 1941, confirmed these guarantees of the integrity of the Turkish borders and
> > added the mutual undertaking to make no hostile action, directly or indirectly, against each other. (The
> > negotiation of
> > the agreement is described in Franz von Papen, Memoirs (London, 1952), pp. 471-473.)
> >
RM
> RM wrote:
> >
> > Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B2296BF...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > > RM wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B20BC90...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > > > > First correction...It started with 300 villages..Then it turned out
> > > > > to be 3000 villages in propaganda world..Now it is 30 000 villages
> > > > > thanks to your powerful imagination..
> > > >
> > > > Sorry about mistake. Killing 100 people is as worst as killing a 10000
> > > > for me.
> > >
> > > Forget about the mistake..
> > > Killing one person is bad enough..But 100 people is really different
> > > from 10000 ..
> >
> > How's that?
>
> The consequences in the international platform are different..
> If I assume your logic, then I have the right to blame Armenians for
> having massacred some Turkish villages in Northeastern Anatolia
> with THE SAME INTENSITY as you blame the Ottoman government for
> having killed 1 million Armenians...With you logic they are both
> GENOCIDEs....
What is the definition of genocide? And can someone who tries to
defend his life and the life of his loved ones and therefore kills the
agreessor be called a murderer?
I do not condone in anyway ANY murder, but the facts clearly state
that there was a DELIBERATE attempt to exterminate armenians in
Ottoman Empire for various reasons (none of which justify the
killing). There are documents which noone can deny. I am glad to say
some of the victims did not let be slaughtered as a sheep and took
arms to defend their lifes, died with dignity or escaped the knife.
The violence against armenians was not spontaneous, it was well
prepared and organized (with help of germans). So the fact is:
Armenians were to perish while there was NO attempt to deliberately
exterminate Ottomans on the part of Armenians.
> > > > > > Second correction..Kurds are not dogs for us
> > > >
> > > > You are a hypocrit. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. you are treating them
> > > > like dogs, that says it all.
> > >
> > > Tell me about unfairly treated Kurds, I understand it..Yet, by
> > > no means you have the right to use the word "dogs" for a minority
> > > in my country..I had way more Kurdish friends you can ever meet..
> > > Commenting about my country doesn't allow to use such strong words...
> >
> > Listen, apparently you choose your words carefully, but I aint buying
> > this sh*t,
>
> Well this is the WHOLE ISSUE I have been expecting you to realise..
> Wording is exteremely important in the way you explain something
> historical..
I apologize if I insulted your intelligence. Tell me, do you approve
of Turkey' policy toward its own citizens of other origin? And how
would you define it?
> "unfairly treated kurds"="another genocide". Its enough to
> > take a close look at what happens to kurds in Turkey to understand
> > that "unfairly treated kurds" is NOT the definition which should be
> > used. You might have kurdish friends, but that does not mean your
> > country is not conducting a genocide (again). *what one has to do with
> > another, I fail to see the connection.
>
>
> And if you can establish the equality
> "unfairly treated kurds"="another genocide",
> then you either don't know what you are talking about, or you are
> just another genocide cultivator..
> Kurds in Turkey have been deprived from preserving their national
> identity..This is not genocide..If it is, then what blacks suffered
> in US till 1970s, what Turks suffered in Bulgaria in 1990s, what
> muslims suffered in Yugoslavia, what Irish suffered in Britain
> till 1916, what Gypsies suffered in all Europe are ALL GENOCIDES...
>
> I can give tens of other examples, but I am tired..
>
> Are you happy now ????
First you take their language, their identity, when they try to resist
you shoot/jail them (along with all those who try to protest). How do
you want world to define this? Yes, blacks suffered, and gypsies
suffered, kurds suffer now, armenians were labeled "terrorists",
exiled and killed and now they chock up because of such "friendly"
neighbours. So basicly it all boils down to : GOOD against BAD ,
loyalty against intolerance.
Which side are you on, Guray?
PS. To those who speak about "armenian agressors": Karabach war is a
liberation war. That land was always Armenian and was given to Azeris
by bolsheviks. Probably we would go on living quietly if Azeris were
not to start a cultural genocide (forbid armenian to be studied in
schools, etc), but since armenians learned their lesson and know that
cultural genocide (at turkish hands) is followed by physical
extermination- war began to protect armenians from extinction. We won
that war because it was about our existance in Karabach, while azeris
were fighting on "naked entusiasm + money".
Tolerate and you shall be tolerated yourself. Violate and you'll get
back nothing but violence.
vasif@fisav
country and business is business.
who are you trying to fool with your stupid idiotic postings?
--
vasif@fisav
**************
REAL <traprea...@SPAMTRAPPEDHotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B25E6F8...@SPAMTRAPPEDHotmail.com...
Guray Acar
RM wrote:
>
> Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B254D9E...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > RM wrote:
> > >
> > > Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B2296BF...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > > > RM wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Guray Acar <ac...@ecn.purdue.edu> wrote in message news:<3B20BC90...@ecn.purdue.edu>...
> > > > > > First correction...It started with 300 villages..Then it turned out
> > > > > > to be 3000 villages in propaganda world..Now it is 30 000 villages
> > > > > > thanks to your powerful imagination..
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry about mistake. Killing 100 people is as worst as killing a 10000
> > > > > for me.
> > > >
> > > > Forget about the mistake..
> > > > Killing one person is bad enough..But 100 people is really different
> > > > from 10000 ..
> > >
> > > How's that?
> >
> > The consequences in the international platform are different..
> > If I assume your logic, then I have the right to blame Armenians for
> > having massacred some Turkish villages in Northeastern Anatolia
> > with THE SAME INTENSITY as you blame the Ottoman government for
> > having killed 1 million Armenians...With you logic they are both
> > GENOCIDEs....
>
> What is the definition of genocide? And can someone who tries to
> defend his life and the life of his loved ones and therefore kills the
> agreessor be called a murderer?
Honestly I don't know the exact definition of Genocide..I am just
using the Jewish Genocide as the reference point, because that is
the only one that has been recognized as "Genocide" by all countries..
No..A person who kills in defense of his beloved ones cannot be
a killer..However, it is tricky to specify if you actually defend or
attack..
>
> I do not condone in anyway ANY murder, but the facts clearly state
> that there was a DELIBERATE attempt to exterminate armenians in
> Ottoman Empire for various reasons (none of which justify the
> killing). There are documents which noone can deny. I am glad to say
> some of the victims did not let be slaughtered as a sheep and took
> arms to defend their lifes, died with dignity or escaped the knife.
>
> The violence against armenians was not spontaneous, it was well
> prepared and organized (with help of germans). So the fact is:
> Armenians were to perish while there was NO attempt to deliberately
> exterminate Ottomans on the part of Armenians.
This issue has been discussed many times..I am afraid I haven't
seen such "documents that noone can deny" yet..Both sides are coming
up with documents..I have no reason to absolutely believe in one side..
>
> > > > > > > Second correction..Kurds are not dogs for us
> > > > >
> > > > > You are a hypocrit. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. you are treating them
> > > > > like dogs, that says it all.
> > > >
> > > > Tell me about unfairly treated Kurds, I understand it..Yet, by
> > > > no means you have the right to use the word "dogs" for a minority
> > > > in my country..I had way more Kurdish friends you can ever meet..
> > > > Commenting about my country doesn't allow to use such strong words...
> > >
> > > Listen, apparently you choose your words carefully, but I aint buying
> > > this sh*t,
> >
> > Well this is the WHOLE ISSUE I have been expecting you to realise..
> > Wording is exteremely important in the way you explain something
> > historical..
>
> I apologize if I insulted your intelligence. Tell me, do you approve
> of Turkey' policy toward its own citizens of other origin? And how
> would you define it?
I have confessed here that Kurds have been deprived some of their
most natural rights..I did this several times..The problem is slowly
getting closer to solution..In my view, the government's recent
regulation which demotes Turkish to merely "the official language
of the country" is an important step..Expecting any improvement
faster than this is a bit unrealistic in my opinion..There are
thousands of people who have lost their beloved ones just a few
years ago..Sometimes you need to wait so that everybody can come
to term with his/her pain..
Few Turks would really deny the human-rights problems of Turkey
provided that they are asked properly..But if one comes to the NG
and makes statements associating human-rights problems to the
Turkish culture, then it is very likely that many members will
have a negative attitude..
Minority rights is something relatively new in whole world
with at most a few decades of history..I hope things will get better
in my country, too..
>
> > "unfairly treated kurds"="another genocide". Its enough to
> > > take a close look at what happens to kurds in Turkey to understand
> > > that "unfairly treated kurds" is NOT the definition which should be
> > > used. You might have kurdish friends, but that does not mean your
> > > country is not conducting a genocide (again). *what one has to do with
> > > another, I fail to see the connection.
> >
> >
> > And if you can establish the equality
> > "unfairly treated kurds"="another genocide",
> > then you either don't know what you are talking about, or you are
> > just another genocide cultivator..
> > Kurds in Turkey have been deprived from preserving their national
> > identity..This is not genocide..If it is, then what blacks suffered
> > in US till 1970s, what Turks suffered in Bulgaria in 1990s, what
> > muslims suffered in Yugoslavia, what Irish suffered in Britain
> > till 1916, what Gypsies suffered in all Europe are ALL GENOCIDES...
> >
> > I can give tens of other examples, but I am tired..
> >
> > Are you happy now ????
>
> First you take their language, their identity, when they try to resist
> you shoot/jail them (along with all those who try to protest). How do
> you want world to define this? Yes, blacks suffered, and gypsies
> suffered, kurds suffer now, armenians were labeled "terrorists",
> exiled and killed and now they chock up because of such "friendly"
> neighbours.
Call it "violation of minority rights", call it "assimilation",
call it "oppression" etc..Yet, "Genocide" means we are trying to
exterminate Kurds..I don't know man..Think about it again..
You can come up with a lot of genocides if this is how you define the
word....
> So basicly it all boils down to : GOOD against BAD ,
> loyalty against intolerance.
>
> Which side are you on, Guray?
I am afraid I do not agree with you..Or maybe my view will be a minor
addition to yours..
In my view, the struggle has been rarely between GOOD and BAD in
history..I believe it has mostly been between "WEAK" and "STRONG" ..
Looking at sociological and historical events from a "GOOD against
BAD" point of view really doesn't help....From the "WEAK" and "STRONG"
point of view, I want to be on the STRONG side, helping the WEAK side..
In other words, I am against struggle unless it is inevitable..
>
> PS. To those who speak about "armenian agressors": Karabach war is a
> liberation war. That land was always Armenian and was given to Azeris
> by bolsheviks. Probably we would go on living quietly if Azeris were
> not to start a cultural genocide (forbid armenian to be studied in
> schools, etc), but since armenians learned their lesson and know that
> cultural genocide (at turkish hands) is followed by physical
> extermination- war began to protect armenians from extinction. We won
> that war because it was about our existance in Karabach, while azeris
> were fighting on "naked entusiasm + money".
I am sorry but these are just excuses..You guys got Karabag
because you COULD .. Not because you were right to do so..
With the same token should Azeris attack Iran to get the Azeri part
of the country ??..Who decided that Karabag was actually Armenian ??
How come you guys accepted living under Russian rule for decades ??
Once again, "GOOD AGAINST BAD" doesn't work....
T C
with (either factually or conceptually) but they stimulate thought and
discussion.
I believe there are more than enough documents to prove a genocide
against the Armenians yet I have to agree that access to such source
materials is deplorably inadequate. Viewed rationally the Turkish
government would gain bu hiding such materials so a more neutral forum
is needed to terminate the disagreement.
Your argument about the scope of the term genocide may well be one of
the most important (long term) issues you raise. I would like to suggest
that the term "cultural genocide" be applied where appropriate until a
better term is substituted. I say this with full knowledge that, if the
allegations I believe are true, the action against Armenians was pure
genocide (not cultural) while taking into account that the use of a
single term for both issues doesn't promote understanding.
The holocaust is no longer the sole recognized genocide
internationally, we can all thank the world court for this. Having said
that the source material on the definition of genocide should show that
at least the author of the term considered the action against Armenians
to be genocide and showed this in his description.
On one point I must be blunt, if meeting the egotistical and
nationalistic needs of any people is required for them to face the truth
they have displayed their failure to fit in with the community of
nations, it's too much like having to agree with a rapist when he says
"but she was asking for it".
The era of realpolitik where a nation can defy all internationally
accepted norms because of some geopolitical advantage is quickly drawing
to an end, the sooner all accept this the better off we will all be.
RM
You specify it very simple. An armed gang is at your door to rape your
wife, kill you and your children. What do you do? What do you do?
> > I do not condone in anyway ANY murder, but the facts clearly state
> > that there was a DELIBERATE attempt to exterminate armenians in
> > Ottoman Empire for various reasons (none of which justify the
> > killing). There are documents which noone can deny. I am glad to say
> > some of the victims did not let be slaughtered as a sheep and took
> > arms to defend their lifes, died with dignity or escaped the knife.
> >
> > The violence against armenians was not spontaneous, it was well
> > prepared and organized (with help of germans). So the fact is:
> > Armenians were to perish while there was NO attempt to deliberately
> > exterminate Ottomans on the part of Armenians.
>
> This issue has been discussed many times..I am afraid I haven't
> seen such "documents that noone can deny" yet..Both sides are coming
> up with documents..I have no reason to absolutely believe in one side..
http://www.genocide.ru/photos.html
Please show me documents that proof otherwise.
I hope so too. Just the hope is vague, after decades of oppression and
wrong doing, I find little hope that Turkey can be a democratic
country.
Guray, you dont need to COME UP with genocides. The definition of
genocide is clearly defined in UN. Killing part of the etnic group, or
the whole.........
> > So basicly it all boils down to : GOOD against BAD ,
> > loyalty against intolerance.
> >
> > Which side are you on, Guray?
>
> I am afraid I do not agree with you..Or maybe my view will be a minor
> addition to yours..
> In my view, the struggle has been rarely between GOOD and BAD in
> history..I believe it has mostly been between "WEAK" and "STRONG" ..
> Looking at sociological and historical events from a "GOOD against
> BAD" point of view really doesn't help....From the "WEAK" and "STRONG"
> point of view, I want to be on the STRONG side, helping the WEAK side..
> In other words, I am against struggle unless it is inevitable..
How do you define "weak" and "strong" ? And dont you think that that
"strenght" comes from "not being punished for oppression and murder"
therefore producing more "evil"? Was it so necessary to wipe out all
christian population of Asia Minor, which was there before Ottomans
appeared? I am sure Turkey is much less pleasant place to live these
days (read Kurt Vonnegut's "Bluebeard", its very interesting how he
explains what happened to armenians in Ottoman Empire).
> > PS. To those who speak about "armenian agressors": Karabach war is a
> > liberation war. That land was always Armenian and was given to Azeris
> > by bolsheviks. Probably we would go on living quietly if Azeris were
> > not to start a cultural genocide (forbid armenian to be studied in
> > schools, etc), but since armenians learned their lesson and know that
> > cultural genocide (at turkish hands) is followed by physical
> > extermination- war began to protect armenians from extinction. We won
> > that war because it was about our existance in Karabach, while azeris
> > were fighting on "naked entusiasm + money".
>
> I am sorry but these are just excuses..You guys got Karabag
> because you COULD .. Not because you were right to do so..
Guray, dont make me laugh.
> With the same token should Azeris attack Iran to get the Azeri part
> of the country ??
If Iran is conducting a cultural genocide the oppressed party has the
legitimacy NOT to submit to autority. And as I said before, cultural
genocide is followed by physical extermination. Sumgait genocide was
the example of what is awaiting Karabach. We did not take the chances.
> Who decided that Karabag was actually Armenian ??
Is a cathedral dating early 1200 good enough proof that that land is
christian/armenian? All accounts of history state Karabach as armenian
land. Show me ONE which doesnt. (an autentic one, no MIT "facts"
please)
> How come you guys accepted living under Russian rule for decades ??
This shows you have little knowledge of history. Read about how USSR
was established and what choice did Karabach armenians have.
> Once again, "GOOD AGAINST BAD" doesn't work....
It does now. De Facto. And soon De Jure too.
vedat
hey tc,
nothing important,
it's just that...when I was walking on a foot-path yesterday,
I stepped on a dog shit.
'thought you might like to know!