Internet Censorship Report for The European Commission
Rich Graves
Minnesota white supremacist/Neo-Nazi spokesman, writes:
[Neo-Nazi propaganda, which starts somewhat reasonable, drones on, and
ends with a pointer to the Web site for The National Alliance, an open
white supremacist and Jew-hating organization based in West Virginia.]
And he wrote it a number of times, in a number of different groups,
separately, without cross-posting. If you see it elsewhere, please follow
up, and let me know.
The professional liar Milton Kleim is properly addressed in alt.revisionism
and other relevant groups not here. My direct reply to this article is:
Message-ID: <fucking-naz...@freenet.carleton.ca>
(yes, really, that's the article ID, and I've added it to the References
header) in alt.censorship and other groups, or on the Web at:
http://www.c2.org/~rich/Press/000NatlAlliancePropaganda.txt
Another good response to the liar Milton Kleim is:
Message-ID: <panza-n...@c2.org>
Which is saved at:
http://www.c2.org/~rich/Press/0Miltie_Flame.txt
Have a nice day, Milton. I hope to see you restricted to Stormfront-L, or
maybe posting under a new address, soon. While I admit many mistakes, I'm
proud of what I write, and make no attempts to hide my beliefs or my
agenda.
Who is censoring you? Please, speak out, as you do on Stormfront-L. Anyone
who wants to read how Miltie and his friends *really* feel about Jews and
minorities should join their mailing list.
-rich
Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism
http://36.190.0.210/~llurch/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/
"First, bring down Zundel's suffering in terms of numbers and
events, both real and imagined, to what it really was, not what
they say it was, what they exploit for their own political,
financial, and geopolitical purposes."
Milton Kleim
> Hydra Associates is a consutancy company based in London. We are preparing
> a report for the European Commission on 'The Protection of Minors and
> Human Dignity in the Information Society'
> This report will inform the drafting of a Green Paper on interactive
> point-to-point services (including internet, video-on-demand, etc.) to be
> published this year. This may in turn lead to a directive on the subject
> which may include content regulation. If it does this regulation will
> apply to all 15 member states of the European Union.
> I would be very interested to have information on any of the following
> subjects as it would help us a good deal in writing our report.
> 1. the plausibility of different forms of internet censorship (regulatory
> or technical) at a national level
Effective national level censorship of the Internet is impossible, as can
be seen with the Deutsche Telekom case. Liberty-minded persons outside of
the state which controls its citizens' access to information can easily
overcome "isolated" single-state-specific censorship efforts. Provided
international TELNET links and e-mail are possible from the country with
censorship, state censorship can not succeed. Persons who wish to obtain
"controversial" information can obtain it in another country which
cherishes freedom of conscience and expression.
There is, of course, the possibility of shutting down all links to the
"outside world," but the whole purpose of being connected to the Net is
then defeated. Should a modern and technologically advanced country like
Germany cut itself off from the rest of the Internet to achieve censorship
of alternative political and entertainment materials, deterimental effects
of _a severe nature_ would occur to the educational and cultural arenas in
the censoring country, since beneficial information would be denied to the
vast majority of those in that society.
> 2. their plausibility at an international level
Worldwide censorship would be difficult, though not impossible. No elec-
tronic censorship effort, even imposed planet-wide, would have total
effectiveness due to the technological implictions of this matter. The
Internet community reviles censorship, and has a powerful resilience
against any effort to restrict information flow over the Net.
There are hundreds of thousands of computer science experts, and millions
of non-technically-oriented individuals, who can and will make every
effort to subvert and circumvent censorship, wherever or however it
occurs. The best that could be achieved with a coordinated, worldwide
censorship policy would be to deny _convenient_ access to alternative
political and entertainment materials. Access could not and would not be
_totally_ denied, as thousands of people would covertly and stealthily
distribute the information through any and all available channels.
The costs and detrimental effects of worldwide censorship of the Net
greatly outweigh the real and alleged benefits to society or the censoring
agency, since millions of people would seek out such information _as a
direct result of it's statutory prohibition_, and the policy would
generate resentment against and disillusionment with the governmental
agencies imposing censorship. Persons who believe in alternative
political ideas or enjoy alternative entertainment -- the targets of a
censorship campaign -- would attain the status of "martyrs," increasing
their credibility in most cases, and their ideas would be unavoidably
given much wider distribution as a result of legal sanctions against them.
The wisest course to follow regarding alternative politics and entertain-
ment materials is for governments and other entities to _ignore_
relatively benign "controversial" expression and information, and hence
deny it enhanced respectability and dissemination.
> 3. key barriers to any watertight forms of control
The very nature of electronic communications technologies makes it impos-
sible to achieve "water-tight" barriers against freedom of information
distribution. Only _legal_ means of electronic data/information distribu-
tion can be prohibited. Individuals who believe in absolute free expres-
sion and are technically-aware can and will subvert and circumvent censor-
ship efforts by the State through renegade, illicit means, including
forgery of data transmission commands and similar methods. One cannot
prohibit a person from making a phone call to another phone to which the
former is linked; similarly, one cannot prohibit data from being trans-
ferred across communication networks by issuing a law against it.
> 4. indicators of the amount of 'obscene' or other types of (potentially)
> 'unsuitable' material available on the Internet and other online
> services
How does one define "unsuitable" material? What is "obscene"? Do we use
secular standards? Christian standards? Islamic standards?
> 5. any published reports which tackle these issues
The ongoing worldwide censorship campaign by governmental, quasi-govern-
mental (such as the US-based _Anti-Defamation League_), and private
organizations, groups and individuals is fairly recent, and I am not aware
of any relevant reports analyzing the prohibition of freedom of expression
on the Internet.
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
Ken McVay OBC
bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) wrote:
[Interesting comments about the futility of censoring the
internet]
>Should a modern and technologically advanced country like
>Germany cut itself off from the rest of the Internet to achieve censorship
>of alternative political and entertainment materials, deterimental effects
>of _a severe nature_ would occur to the educational and cultural arenas in
>the censoring country, since beneficial information would be denied to the
>vast majority of those in that society.
Interesting that you recognize that reality, Mr. Kleim.
Perhaps, since you clearly do, you can explain how the
National Alliance's clear program of suppression of thoughts
and ideas it finds unacceptable in its coming "Aryan nation"
are reconciled with your apparent opposition to censorship.
The National Alliance WEB site clearly specifies the nature of
the censorship and suppression which could be expected under a
NA government:
http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/na2.html
"What we must have, however, is a thorough rooting out
of Semitic and other non-Aryan values and customs everywhere.
We must once again provide the sort of social and spiritual
environment in which our own nature can express itself in
music, in art and architecture, in literature, in philosophy
and scholarship, in the mass media, and in the life-styles
of the people."
In short, although you appear to present yourself as an
advocate of unfettered speech, you also promote a thoroughly
discredited political ideal which would openly and
aggressively censor every aspect of society.
"In specific terms, this means a society in which young men and
women gather to revel with polkas or waltzes, reels or jigs, or any
other White dances, but never to undulate or jerk to negroid jazz or
rock rhythms. It means pop music without Barry Manilow and art
galleries without Marc Chagall. It means films in which the appearance
of any non-White face on the screen is a sure sign that
what's being shown is either archival newsreel footage or a historical
drama about the bad, old days."
Music is to be censored and suppressed,
Dance is to be censored and suppressed,
Art is to be censored and suppressed,
Film is to be censored and suppressed.
Will the InterNet be left out of this equation, Mr. Kleim?
One is instantly reminded of the words of Josef Goebbles, who
said:
"We, the National Socialists, have never taken pride
in representing democratic beliefs, but we openly
declared that we used democratic means in order to
achieve power. After achieving this power, we would
ruthlessly deny all those means which had been granted
to us when we were in the opposition." (Harvey, Ian.
The Technique of Persuasion. London: The Falcon Press,
1951. p. 149)
--
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Anonymous ftp: ftp.almanac.bc.ca
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)
Kenneth McVay OBC. Home Page: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/~kmcvay/
Adam 3T
priority target
in the event of any civil unrest in the US. In plain language, if the
shit comes
down, the Alliance will be in for a shocking surprise if they think that
Jews will
remain unarmed and passively wait for others to decide their fate.
Adam
The Leo
Frank Brigade
"Gun control: Use both hands."
Sylvie Charbonneau
>
> Interesting that you recognize that reality, Mr. Kleim.
> Perhaps, since you clearly do, you can explain how the
> National Alliance's clear program of suppression of thoughts
> and ideas it finds unacceptable in its coming "Aryan nation"
> are reconciled with your apparent opposition to censorship.
To find out more about the National Alliance, call the National Alliance
answering service.
Main office: (304) 653-4600
California: (818) 725-3430
Florida: (407) 275-6815
Illinois: (708) 818-4045
Maryland: (410) 813-4105
Mississippi: (601) 373-6290
Nevada: (702) 434-1994
New Jersey: (201) 697-1011
New York: (212) 388-2655
North Carolina: (919) 742-2438
Ohio: (216) 846-1045
Ottawa, Canada (613) 834-7960
Virginia: (703) 715-6050 or (804) 673-7350
or check out the Web page at: http://www.natvan.com
Kari Yli-Kuha
: To find out more about the National Alliance, call the National Alliance
: answering service.
[...]
: or check out the Web page at: http://www.natvan.com
Which I did:
<quote of NA goals>
White Living Space
In spiritually healthier times our ancestors took as theirs those parts
of the world suited by climate
and terrain to our race: in particular, all of Europe and the temperate
zones of the Americas, not to
mention Australia and the southern tip of Africa. This was our living
area and our breeding area, and
it must be so again. After the sickness of "multiculturalism," which is
destroying America, Britain, and
every other Aryan nation in which it is being promoted, has been swept
away, we must again have a
racially clean area of the earth for the further development of our
people. We must have White
schools, White residential neighborhoods and recreation areas, White
workplaces, White farms and
countryside. We must have no non-Whites in our living space, and we must
have open space around
us for expansion.
</quote of NA goals>
Thanks, but no thanks, Sylvie.
Even as a joke it shows a bad taste. Especially the mention on South Africa,
"Long live Apartheid!", right?
disgustedly,
--
_ , Kari Yli-Kuha (male, btw.)
' ) / SQ Consulting, Tampere, Finland
/-< __. __ o e-mail: yli-...@cs.tut.fi
/ ) (_/|_/ (_<_ phone: +358 31 3165 200 fax: +358 31 3165 201
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guhkkin davvin Da'vgga'id vuolde sabma' suolggai Sa'mieatnan
--
_ , Kari Yli-Kuha (male, btw.)
' ) / SQ Consulting, Tampere, Finland
/-< __. __ o mailto:yli...@sqc.fi http://www.sqc.fi/~ylikuka
/ ) (_/|_/ (_<_ voice: +358 31 3165 200 fax: +358 31 3165 201
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guhkkin davvin Da'vgga'id vuolde sabma' suolggai Sa'mieatnan
Henry Ayre
magnet cannot have only a north pole or only a south pole, but must
instead have both--or none, so the xenophobia of a white monoculture is
balanced by the well-known xenophobia of Israel which is a very racist
state where censorship abounds. The greatest difference between these two
poles might be that the former is better equipped psychologically to
exist on its own than the latter. And some people might choose
Beethoven's 9th Symphony over Seinfeld's humor. H. Ayre.
Joel Rosenberg
Err... Henry, you shouldn't have been swallowing that stuff -- those were
suppositories . . .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg | jo...@winternet.com | http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I marvel at the resilience of the Jewish people.
Their best characteristic is their desire to remember.
No other people has such an obsession with memory.
-- Elie Wiesel
Rich Graves
>And some people might choose Beethoven's 9th Symphony over Seinfeld's
>humor. H. Ayre.
Henry, I think there are plenty of people who enjoy both.
You can enjoy both in Israel and the United States of America. You would
not be able to enjoy both under a National Alliance regime.
That is the political choice.
The personal choice is, well, personal. You're entitled to hate whomever
you want, but believe me, you're missing out.
Die Luft der Freiheit weht.
Les Griswold
> Henry Ayre <he...@alaska.net> writes:
>>And some people might choose Beethoven's 9th Symphony over Seinfeld's
>>humor. H. Ayre.
>
> Henry, I think there are plenty of people who enjoy both.
>
> You can enjoy both in Israel and the United States of America. You would
> not be able to enjoy both under a National Alliance regime.
>
> That is the political choice.
>
> The personal choice is, well, personal. You're entitled to hate whomever
> you want, but believe me, you're missing out.
"Missing out" on what? The scatological "humour" of a throwback like
Jerry Sienfeld? Some loss.
Les
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today. Out of all the racialist
organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance, has the potential to bring us to victory!" -- Bob Mathews
Hiski Haapoja
or s.c.belgium would be interested in your National Alliance, and its
phone numbers in Virginia or Mississippi? Go away.
--
# Tässä puhuu raaka pakana, barbaari ja väkivaltaihminen, joka vain
vaivoin kurissa pidettynä asui Lutherin sielun pohjalla. #
(Egon Friedell: "Uuden ajan kulttuurihistoria")
ncrccjc
>"Missing out" on what? The scatological "humour" of a throwback like
>Jerry Sienfeld? Some loss.
>
>Les
ncrccjc responds:
Proof positive, Lester has no sense of humour!!!!
Kees van den Doel
Steven Proffitt <pro...@pulsar.wku.edu> wrote:
> [] the second ammendment. [] put their [sic] so as to provide the
> citizens the power to take down any government which no longer serves
> the people except in tyrany.
> If a solder is allowed to have a particular weapon, and being that the
> solder came from the stock of citizens available, and being as the solder
> serves those same citizens, and being as those citizens also run the
> government which those solders serve under, what's the difference? Their
> is none and citizens should be able to have any weapon that a solder might
> have of the same time.
I strongly oppose arming my solder.
Next time, when some wire is loose, and I approach my roll of solder
with my soldering iron, with the intent of repairing the malfunction, I
will run the risk of being shot.
This is not what solder is for, and would seriously impair electronic
repairs.
Stereo components have rights too, you know.
Kees
Steven Proffitt
: Be advised that the National Alliance was long ago designated as a
I do get so damn tired of the old argument "I'm not going to kill you,
so why won't you give me your guns." As far as I'm concerned, "If your
not going to kill me, why would you need my guns?"
I can't understand why people ignore the true meaning of the second
ammendment. It was put their for one reason and one reason only. It
was put their so as to provide the citizens the power to take down any
government which no longer serves the people except in tyrany.
It was also intended by our forefathers that each citizen should have
the right to own and posses any weapon that a typical solder might have
within the same time frame. Jefferson said just this in just as many
words.
If a solder is allowed to have a particular weapon, and being that the
solder came from the stock of citizens available, and being as the solder
serves those same citizens, and being as those citizens also run the
government which those solders serve under, what's the difference? Their
is none and citizens should be able to have any weapon that a solder might
have of the same time.
Besides, if the citizen doesn't have the same equilivant weapons, how
is it to be expected of them to be able to throw down a government in
tyrany as it was so prescribed in the Constitution? It can't be and
don't fool yourself. That's exactly what their trying to do is to
disable us to such a point that we can no longer take them out by force
when it becomes necessary. And, it will become necessary if they
continue in the same way they've been going.
Rob Barends
>> citizens the power to take down any government which no longer serves
>> the people except in tyrany.
>
>> solder came from the stock of citizens available, and being as the solder
>> serves those same citizens, and being as those citizens also run the
>> government which those solders serve under, what's the difference? Their
>> is none and citizens should be able to have any weapon that a solder might
>> have of the same time.
>
>
>Next time, when some wire is loose, and I approach my roll of solder
>with my soldering iron, with the intent of repairing the malfunction, I
>will run the risk of being shot.
>
>This is not what solder is for, and would seriously impair electronic
>repairs.
>
>Stereo components have rights too, you know.
So their !
>Kees
Rob
-
> I can't understand why people ignore the true meaning of the second
> ammendment. It was put their for one reason and one reason only. It
> was put their so as to provide the citizens the power to take down any
> government which no longer serves the people except in tyrany.
They cannot deal with the concept that it might mean "this" government,
"now", and consequently a threat to themselves. The fact that the revolution
has not already begun alarms me, because we will have missed the opportunity
ten years from now.
In other words, it is already too late for prevention. Reaction is only possible
with limited hope for success. Most political alignment in America consists of
apathy.
-james-