Origin of the word "Lumpia / Loempia"
Chris S.
Hiya,
I was looking through a Dutch phrasebook in the bookstore a couple of days
ago, and I found something that surprised me.
There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
(Spring Roll).
Now this surprised me since I (and many Filipinos) thought the Filipinos gave
it the name and that I found it in a Dutch phrase book! (I knew that they
somehow came from China).
The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia, since The Netherlands
and Indonesia had some things related to each other. But the thing is I have
never heard of Lumpia related to Indonesia. Neither does the word look
"Chinese" to me.
So does anyone know where the name "Lumpia" came from? Could the Filipinos
have invented it and the Indonesians borrowed it (or vice versa) ? Or maybe
it's disguised as Chinese "loom pi ya" (I don't speak Chinese, btw).... Or
could it be Spanish? Though I couldn't find it in my Spanish dictionary...
Any info regarding this would satsify my curiosity... and be appreciated ;)
Thanks...!
--Chris
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Moderator and Designer of Tele-Arena 97 on the Game-Master.
Modérateur et Dessinateur de Tele-Arena 97 sur le Maître de Jeu.
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Kalani M.
Interesting. But I highly doubt that word is spanish. But your Chinese origin
seems logical, although I really don't know what they call it there. But you
might be right, it might be of Chinese origin...the word I mean.
Kalani
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Kalani M. <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
>Oi Chris,
>
>Interesting. But I highly doubt that word is spanish. But your Chinese origin
>seems logical, although I really don't know what they call it there. But you
>might be right, it might be of Chinese origin...the word I mean.
Wow. Now that was a useful bit of musing.
>> There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
>> was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
>> (Spring Roll).
[snip]
My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
at home.
--
Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
(de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
/____\ gegen die Kunst!
Peter Manders
> The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia
I'd bet on China as the source for the Dutch word.
People from Indonesia only came here in larger numbers in the early
fifties. We've had more Chinese people since before then. Besides the
Chinese have had more influence on our eating culture.
Chinese lumpias are huge compared to Vietnamese or Filipino versions.
If you buy them in the supermarket you'll get the Chinese variant.
Vietnamese lumpias can be bought on every other street corner and
contain very little or no meat compared to the Filipino version I know
of.
The Filipino version I know is "Lumpia Shanghai" so I'm not sure if it's
Filipino by origin.
--
Peter Manders.
Please remove the 'u' to reply.
Mike Wright
>
> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> Kalani M. <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
> >Oi Chris,
> >> There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
> >> was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
> >> (Spring Roll).
> [snip]
>
> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> at home.
Good guess. Up to now, my guess had always been Holo/Hokkien <lun5-pia~2>
(/lun+p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <lun2bing3> "wheel biscuit"), thinking in terms of it
being rolled up.
However Douglas' 1873 Amoy dictionary has <lun7-pia~2> (/lun+q pia~+=s/ Mandarin
<nun4bing3> "delicate biscuit") which is defined as "thin tough cakes like
scones", which probably refers to the wrappers.
Taiwanese say <chhun1-pia~2> (/ts'un=p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <chun1bing3> "spring
biscuit"), but that may be a more modern name. Further interrogation of my wife
elicited <lun7-pia~2-phe5> (/lun+q pia~+=s p'e+p/ Mandarin <nun4bing3pi2>
"delicate biscuit skin") as a general name for such wrappers.
To me, the most likely possibility is that in the Philippines, the name for the
wrapper became the name for the wrapper-plus-filling. It's not unusual for
shifts like that to happen in emigrant communities. After all, the British and
the Americans don't mean the same thing by "biscuit". (If an American biscuit is
thin and crisp, something has gone terribly wrong.)
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
_____________________________________________________
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
-- Charles de Gaulle
Azrifel
koi...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:23:37 GMT, Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com>
>wrote:
>>So does anyone know where the name "Lumpia" came from? Could the Filipinos
>>have invented it and the Indonesians borrowed it (or vice versa) ?
>Vice versa. The word was probably introduced during the invasison by
>people from the Indonesian archipelago approx. 3000 (?) years ago.
My Indonesian cookbook defines "Loempia" as 'Chinese appetizer"
Azrifel (who hates oedang, ati and ikan)
--
"I am Azrifel of The 9th Dominion of The Damned.
I Can Find Anything - Even The Power to Talk to You.
That is My Power."
http://www.oochietoe.demon.nl/ <with Azrifel image>
Chris Borillo
>
> Oi Chris,
>
> Interesting. But I highly doubt that word is spanish. But your Chinese origin
> seems logical, although I really don't know what they call it there. But you
> might be right, it might be of Chinese origin...the word I mean.
Do you think it might be related etymologically to another Filipino
dish: **hopia**?
I'm guessing wildly here, but there's that last syllable "-pia", and it
does involve a dough wrapper of sorts, though thicker and cakier. And
hopia, with its mung bean filling, betrays its Chinese origins.
-- Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------
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For every moral absolute there's a qualification.
To reply by email, remove the 'd' from my address.
------------------------------------------------------------------
daniela leitner
component of Malay language, it is not surprising to
find lots of such similarities. What everyone knows
as 'Lumpia' in Indonesia and Philippines, is also
known as 'Popia' in Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, and
Southern Thailand.
Asking the origin of lumpia is like asking the origin
of 'Anak' which means child in all the regions above.
Anyway, if you find out the origin, I'd like to know
too.
*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
hch
http://www.goto.com/d/search/p/befree/?Promo=befree00003869940081559462&Keyw
ords=lumpia
hch
Chris S. wrote in message <7bdmai$24q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>
>Hiya,
>
>I was looking through a Dutch phrasebook in the bookstore a couple of days
>ago, and I found something that surprised me.
>
>There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it
there
>was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it
was
>(Spring Roll).
>
>Now this surprised me since I (and many Filipinos) thought the Filipinos
gave
>it the name and that I found it in a Dutch phrase book! (I knew that they
>somehow came from China).
>
>The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia, since The
Netherlands
>and Indonesia had some things related to each other. But the thing is I
have
>never heard of Lumpia related to Indonesia. Neither does the word look
>"Chinese" to me.
>
>So does anyone know where the name "Lumpia" came from? Could the Filipinos
Chris S.
de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> at home.
Hmm.... Interesting may have come from Hokkien.... I knew that Chinese settled
in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke.. Anyway
here is what I found:
From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese. ..."
Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the Filipinos
introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> No I do not know the origin, but since Tagalog is a
> component of Malay language,
What does "Tagalog is a component of Malay language" mean? They are two
languages in the same very large family.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Azrifel
France <3br...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>well.. i am not qualified to report on the origin of lumpia. but it is one of
>my very favorite dishes...
You really should try a kroket.
<8< 50 line quoot>
Apolinario Mabini
> What does "Tagalog is a component of Malay language" mean? They are two
> languages in the same very large family.
And what is the name of "the same very large family?" Inquiring minds
would like to know.
ApoMabini
Brian M. Scott
Austronesian, specifically the Malayo-Polynesian branch. (The other
three branches, Atayalic, Tsouic, and Paiwanic, are I believe confined
to Formosa.)
Brian M. Scott
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <F7x5n...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
>
>> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
>> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
>> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
>> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
>> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
>> at home.
>
>Hmm.... Interesting may have come from Hokkien.... I knew that Chinese settled
>in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke.. Anyway
>here is what I found:
>
>From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
>
>"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
>Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
>Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese. ..."
>
>Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the Filipinos
>introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
The bulk of Indonesian Chinese are of Hokkien ancestry (I think mainly
Hoklo, but I'm not sure), although Hakka, Teochiu, and other groups are
represented. The majority of Filipino Chinese are Hoklo (particularly
Quanzhouese).
George Torralba
Sheyt, here's the answer. Cebuanos coined that word. End of
disccusion, ahahahaha.
George
On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:50:46 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
Ben Zimmer
>
> In article <7bfgvc$ll2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >In article <F7x5n...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> > de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
> >> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> >
> >> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> >> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> >> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> >> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> >> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> >> at home.
In Kong Yuan Zhi's 1987 article, "Chinese Loanwoards in Malay-Indonesian
Languages" (Bijdragen tot de taal-, land-, en volkenkunde 143(4):
452-67), he lists "lumpiah" ("spring roll, a thin sheet of dough,
rolled, stuffed, and fried") as a South Fujian (Hokkien) loanword.
Other food terms from Hokkien include tauge (bean sprouts), lengkeng
(longan), kucai (Chinese chives), and tahu (bean-curd).
> >Hmm.... Interesting may have come from Hokkien.... I knew that Chinese settled
> >in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke.. Anyway
> >here is what I found:
> >
> >From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
> >
> >"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
> >Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
> >Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese. ..."
> >
> >Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the Filipinos
> >introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
>
> The bulk of Indonesian Chinese are of Hokkien ancestry (I think mainly
> Hoklo, but I'm not sure), although Hakka, Teochiu, and other groups are
> represented. The majority of Filipino Chinese are Hoklo (particularly
> Quanzhouese).
Kong gives some statistics on overseas Chinese in the Dutch East Indies
in 1935 (I doubt there are reliable stats on this since independence):
District of Origin # of Chinese Percentage
Fujian (Hokkian) 554,981 46.6%
Kejia (Hakka) 200,736 16.9%
Chaozhou (Tio-Tsyu) 87,812 7.4%
Guangzhou (Kwongfu) 136,130 11.4%
Others 210,355 17.7%
Total 1,190,014
(Most Hokkien Chinese settled on Java and Madura, while those from other
districts mostly settled on other islands.)
It's an open question how the Dutch collected these statistics, since
"peranakan" Chinese (Hokkien for the most part) had lived in the Indies
for generations and most had little or no connection to their district
of origin...
--Ben
Mike Wright
>
> In article <7bfgvc$ll2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >In article <F7x5n...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> > de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
> >> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> >
> >> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> >> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> >> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> >> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> >> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> >> at home.
> >
> >in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke.. Anyway
> >here is what I found:
> >
> >From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
> >
> >"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
> >Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
> >Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese. ..."
> >
> >Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the Filipinos
> >introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
Looking back over your (Chris') earlier posts, it looks like you are linking
lumpia to Indonesia just because a Dutch guidebook translated the word as
"spring roll". Did I miss something here, or did you leave out some details?
At any rate, lacking other evidence, I'd assume that such items, along with
their names, were carried all over Southeast Asia by Chinese immigrants, mostly
from the southern Fujian coast.
> The bulk of Indonesian Chinese are of Hokkien ancestry (I think mainly
> Hoklo, but I'm not sure), although Hakka, Teochiu, and other groups are
> represented. The majority of Filipino Chinese are Hoklo (particularly
> Quanzhouese).
The standard meaning of the term "Hokkien" in SEA Chinese communities (and the
Philippines, from what Chris Robato has said) seems to be limited to Holo/Hoklo
(that is, to folks who speak dialects closely related to that of Xiamen/Amoy),
even though it should logically refer to anyone from Fujian Province. This is
similar to the use of the term "Taiwanese" (<tai2wan1ren2>, <tai2wan1hua4>),
<tai2yu3> on Taiwan to refer only to Holo, even though there are other
ethnic/language groups who surely deserve the term as much as, or more than, the
Holo speakers. (They're as bad as the Americans, aren't they?--appropriating the
name of a larger entity for their own selfish use.)
Someone recently told me that about 70 percent of the people in Singapore are of
Hokkien descent, and I have met a number Hokkien speakers from Malaysia, but the
only Indonesian Chinese I have met were a couple of exchange students of
Chaozhou (Teochiu/Teochew) ancestry who knew very little of their ancestral
language, speaking only Bahasa Indonesia and English.
Some other posters a couple of years back, mentioned that the ethnic Chinese on
the island of Penang, Malaysia are mostly from Eng-chhun (Mandarin Yong3chhun1,
"Eternal Spring", about as far north of Quanzhou as Quanzhou is of Xiamen) in
Fujian Province. It's basically Hokkien/Holo, but they had a few examples of odd
vocabulary, including "ha-mi" (probably [ha mi~?]) for "what", contrasting with
Xiamem/Zhangzhou/Quanzhou <sim-mih>.
Kalani M.
Brian M. Scott wrote:
> Austronesian, specifically the Malayo-Polynesian branch. (The other
> three branches, Atayalic, Tsouic, and Paiwanic, are I believe confined
> to Formosa.)
>
Austronesian & Malayo-Polynesian are the same. But what's the other 3 branches?
Atayalic, Tsouic and Paiwanic? What areas and langs. do those consist of?
Kalani M.
Mike Wright wrote:
> "D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff" wrote:
> >
> > In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> > Kalani M. <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
> > >Oi Chris,
> [...]
> > >> There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
> > >> was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
> > >> (Spring Roll).
> > [snip]
> >
> > My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> > Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> > However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> > you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> > Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> > at home.
>
> Good guess. Up to now, my guess had always been Holo/Hokkien <lun5-pia~2>
> (/lun+p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <lun2bing3> "wheel biscuit"), thinking in terms of it
> being rolled up.
>
> However Douglas' 1873 Amoy dictionary has <lun7-pia~2> (/lun+q pia~+=s/ Mandarin
> <nun4bing3> "delicate biscuit") which is defined as "thin tough cakes like
> scones", which probably refers to the wrappers.
>
> Taiwanese say <chhun1-pia~2> (/ts'un=p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <chun1bing3> "spring
> biscuit"), but that may be a more modern name. Further interrogation of my wife
> elicited <lun7-pia~2-phe5> (/lun+q pia~+=s p'e+p/ Mandarin <nun4bing3pi2>
> "delicate biscuit skin") as a general name for such wrappers.
>
> To me, the most likely possibility is that in the Philippines, the name for the
> wrapper became the name for the wrapper-plus-filling. It's not unusual for
> shifts like that to happen in emigrant communities. After all, the British and
> the Americans don't mean the same thing by "biscuit". (If an American biscuit is
> thin and crisp, something has gone terribly wrong.)
>
Kalani M.
George Torralba wrote:
> Sheyt, here's the answer. Cebuanos coined that word. End of
> disccusion, ahahahaha.
>
> George
>
> On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:50:46 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
> Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
>
> >In article <7bfgvc$ll2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> >Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >>In article <F7x5n...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> >> de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
> >>> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> >>
> >>> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> >>> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> >>> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> >>> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> >>> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> >>> at home.
> >>
> >>Hmm.... Interesting may have come from Hokkien.... I knew that Chinese settled
> >>in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke.. Anyway
> >>here is what I found:
> >>
> >>From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
> >>
> >>"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
> >>Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
> >>Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese. ..."
> >>
> >>Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the Filipinos
> >>introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
> >
Kalani M.
Iskandar Baharuddin wrote:
>
>
>
>
> In any even, Tagalog belongs in "rumpun bahasa Melayu", within the Austronesian
> group.
>
What are the other langs. in this group?
>
Kalani M.
Kalani M.
I doubt it we would find them similar. You're probably write, that because of the
Hokien they are similar.
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff wrote:
> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> Kalani M. <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
> >Oi Chris,
> >
> >Interesting. But I highly doubt that word is spanish. But your Chinese origin
> >seems logical, although I really don't know what they call it there. But you
> >might be right, it might be of Chinese origin...the word I mean.
>
> Wow. Now that was a useful bit of musing.
>
> >> There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
> >> was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
> >> (Spring Roll).
> [snip]
>
> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> at home.
>
Ben Zimmer
>
> "Brian M. Scott" wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:43:24 GMT, put...@hotmail.com (Apolinario
> > Mabini) wrote:
> >
> > >In article <36DBDE...@worldnet.att.net>, gram...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >
> > >> What does "Tagalog is a component of Malay language" mean? They are two
> > >> languages in the same very large family.
> >
> > >And what is the name of "the same very large family?" Inquiring minds
> > >would like to know.
> >
> > three branches, Atayalic, Tsouic, and Paiwanic, are I believe confined
> > to Formosa.)
> >
>
> That is the catch-all group.
>
> Tagalog is closely related to bahasa Melaya, and I have the impression that it is
> even closer to Batak.
>
> In any even, Tagalog belongs in "rumpun bahasa Melayu", within the Austronesian
> group.
This subdivision of Austronesian is usually called "Western
Malayo-Polynesian" (used to be called "Indonesian"). Malay and Batak
are both in the "Sundic" branch of WMP, while Tagalog is in the
"Meso-Philippine" branch.
Cladistically,
Ben
Mike Wright
>
> Mike Wright wrote:
>
> > [...] the
> > only Indonesian Chinese I have met were a couple of exchange students of
> > Chaozhou (Teochiu/Teochew) ancestry who knew very little of their ancestral
> > language, speaking only Bahasa Indonesia and English.
> You must have been unlucky. There is, or was in the 70s and 80s, a large
> Hokkien-speaking community. Semarang and the north shore of Central Java had many
> Hokkien speakers.
I guess I have been unlucky. Now that I have a bit more knowledge of the
language, I'd love to hear it spoken by someone other than Taiwanese.
> For market research in Medan in 1974 we needed to form a Hokkien-speaking team, along
> with Javanese and Batak teams. The Indonesian-only team didn't get very far.
>
> I worked for some time with a group of Chinese companies controlled by a Hokkienese
> family. It is now one of the major publicly listed companies.
>
> I found it fascinating to listen to the directors conducting a board meeting in
> Hokkien. At first I thought they were going to kill each other, but I was assured
> that they were just using a normal conversational tone - normal for them, that is.
Ho, ho! My first motivation to learn Hokkien was to be able to understand what
my wife and her brothers, sisters, and friends were always fighting about in the
kitchen. Once I began to learn it, I discovered that they were just gossiping
and joking. I couldn't believe it. I don't know what it is. I don't see the tone
contours as being any more abrupt than those of Mandarin. Maybe it's all those
syllable-final glottal stops combined with short tones.
Iskandar Baharuddin
> "D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff" wrote:
> >
> > In article <7bfgvc$ll2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > >In article <F7x5n...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> > > de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
> > >> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> > >
> > >> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> > >> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> > >> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> > >> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> > >> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> > >> at home.
> > >
> > >Hmm.... Interesting may have come from Hokkien.... I knew that Chinese settled
> > >in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke.. Anyway
> > >here is what I found:
> > >
> > >From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
> > >
> > >"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
> > >Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
> > >Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese. ..."
> > >
> > >Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the Filipinos
> > >introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
>
> Looking back over your (Chris') earlier posts, it looks like you are linking
> lumpia to Indonesia just because a Dutch guidebook translated the word as
> "spring roll". Did I miss something here, or did you leave out some details?
>
> At any rate, lacking other evidence, I'd assume that such items, along with
> their names, were carried all over Southeast Asia by Chinese immigrants, mostly
> from the southern Fujian coast.
>
> > The bulk of Indonesian Chinese are of Hokkien ancestry (I think mainly
> > Hoklo, but I'm not sure), although Hakka, Teochiu, and other groups are
> > represented. The majority of Filipino Chinese are Hoklo (particularly
> > Quanzhouese).
>
> The standard meaning of the term "Hokkien" in SEA Chinese communities (and the
> Philippines, from what Chris Robato has said) seems to be limited to Holo/Hoklo
> (that is, to folks who speak dialects closely related to that of Xiamen/Amoy),
> even though it should logically refer to anyone from Fujian Province. This is
> similar to the use of the term "Taiwanese" (<tai2wan1ren2>, <tai2wan1hua4>),
> <tai2yu3> on Taiwan to refer only to Holo, even though there are other
> ethnic/language groups who surely deserve the term as much as, or more than, the
> Holo speakers. (They're as bad as the Americans, aren't they?--appropriating the
> name of a larger entity for their own selfish use.)
>
> Someone recently told me that about 70 percent of the people in Singapore are of
> Hokkien descent, and I have met a number Hokkien speakers from Malaysia, but the
> only Indonesian Chinese I have met were a couple of exchange students of
> Chaozhou (Teochiu/Teochew) ancestry who knew very little of their ancestral
> language, speaking only Bahasa Indonesia and English.
>
> Some other posters a couple of years back, mentioned that the ethnic Chinese on
> the island of Penang, Malaysia are mostly from Eng-chhun (Mandarin Yong3chhun1,
> "Eternal Spring", about as far north of Quanzhou as Quanzhou is of Xiamen) in
> Fujian Province. It's basically Hokkien/Holo, but they had a few examples of odd
> vocabulary, including "ha-mi" (probably [ha mi~?]) for "what", contrasting with
> Xiamem/Zhangzhou/Quanzhou <sim-mih>.
>
> --
> Mike Wright
> http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
> _____________________________________________________
> "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
> -- Charles de Gaulle
You must have been unlucky. There is, or was in the 70s and 80s, a large
Hokkien-speaking community. Semarang and the north shore of Central Java had many
Hokkien speakers.
For market research in Medan in 1974 we needed to form a Hokkien-speaking team, along
with Javanese and Batak teams. The Indonesian-only team didn't get very far.
I worked for some time with a group of Chinese companies controlled by a Hokkienese
family. It is now one of the major publicly listed companies.
I found it fascinating to listen to the directors conducting a board meeting in
Hokkien. At first I thought they were going to kill each other, but I was assured
that they were just using a normal conversational tone - normal for them, that is.
--
Salaam & Shalom
Izzy
"So I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse..."
from "My Struggle", by Alfred E Neuman
Iskandar Baharuddin
> On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:43:24 GMT, put...@hotmail.com (Apolinario
> Mabini) wrote:
>
> >In article <36DBDE...@worldnet.att.net>, gram...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> >> What does "Tagalog is a component of Malay language" mean? They are two
> >> languages in the same very large family.
>
> >And what is the name of "the same very large family?" Inquiring minds
> >would like to know.
>
> Austronesian, specifically the Malayo-Polynesian branch. (The other
> three branches, Atayalic, Tsouic, and Paiwanic, are I believe confined
> to Formosa.)
>
> Brian M. Scott
That is the catch-all group.
Tagalog is closely related to bahasa Melaya, and I have the impression that it is
even closer to Batak.
In any even, Tagalog belongs in "rumpun bahasa Melayu", within the Austronesian
group.
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
<motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>
>> Austronesian, specifically the Malayo-Polynesian branch. (The other
>> three branches, Atayalic, Tsouic, and Paiwanic, are I believe confined
>> to Formosa.)
>
>Austronesian & Malayo-Polynesian are the same.
Yes, but M-P can also be used as a name for the non-Formosan AN
languages.
>But what's the other 3 branches?
>Atayalic, Tsouic and Paiwanic? What areas and langs. do those consist of?
According to Ruhlen's Classification:
Atayalic: Atayal, Sedeq
Tsouic: Rukai, Tsou, Kanakanabu, Saaroa
Paiwanic: Bunun, Paiwan, Puyuma, Saisiyat, Ami, Kavalan, Pazeh,
Thao, and the extinct Ketangalan, Basay, Taokas, Papora, Babuza,
Hoanya and Siraya. All these langauges are or were spoken on
Taiwan. All the other Austronesian languages, from Madagascar to
Easter Island, belong in the fourth group, Malayo-Polynesian.
==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal ~ ~
Amsterdam _____________ ~ ~
m...@wxs.nl |_____________|||
========================== Ce .sig n'est pas une .cig
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:41:42 -0800, "Kalani M."
> <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
>
> >Brian M. Scott wrote:
> >
> >> Austronesian, specifically the Malayo-Polynesian branch. (The other
> >> three branches, Atayalic, Tsouic, and Paiwanic, are I believe confined
> >> to Formosa.)
> >
> >Austronesian & Malayo-Polynesian are the same.
>
> Yes, but M-P can also be used as a name for the non-Formosan AN
> languages.
>
> >But what's the other 3 branches?
> >Atayalic, Tsouic and Paiwanic? What areas and langs. do those consist of?
>
> According to Ruhlen's Classification:
>
> Atayalic: Atayal, Sedeq
> Tsouic: Rukai, Tsou, Kanakanabu, Saaroa
> Paiwanic: Bunun, Paiwan, Puyuma, Saisiyat, Ami, Kavalan, Pazeh,
> Thao, and the extinct Ketangalan, Basay, Taokas, Papora, Babuza,
> Hoanya and Siraya. All these langauges are or were spoken on
> Taiwan. All the other Austronesian languages, from Madagascar to
> Easter Island, belong in the fourth group, Malayo-Polynesian.
Please don't cite Ruhlen as a reference for classification. A link to
the Ethnologue website would be helpful, or perhaps to the Britannica
(on-line you have to pay for, but the encyclopedia itself should be
available in virtually every English-community library in the world) or
the equivalent in other languages.
Chris S.
Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> wrote:
> Looking back over your (Chris') earlier posts, it looks like you are linking
> lumpia to Indonesia just because a Dutch guidebook translated the word as
> "spring roll". Did I miss something here, or did you leave out some details?
Actually I was linking the word to any possible country (Indonesia,
Netherlands, China, & Spain). I wrote the message because I was surprised in
finding the word in a Dutch phrasebook. As more people answered, I found out
Lumpia was a word of Chinese-origin. Someone mentioned some 3 types of
Chinese, and so I did a little research and found out that Hokkiens were
merchants in the Philippines.
:)
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Please don't cite Ruhlen as a reference for classification. A link to
>the Ethnologue website would be helpful, or perhaps to the Britannica
>(on-line you have to pay for, but the encyclopedia itself should be
>available in virtually every English-community library in the world) or
>the equivalent in other languages.
But Ruhlen's classification is superior to that of Ethnologue
(overspecified) and that of the Britannica (underspecified). The
classifications follow generally the most recent (as of 1987) and
mainstream works and views by specialists in the language
families involved (Austronesian classification based on "Blust
1978, Pawley 1972, and others"), and they can almost always be
cited without reservations.
Ruhlen is idiosyncratic only at the very highest level of
classification (for instance, he puts Austronesian in Austro-Tai,
and Austro-Tai together with Miao-Yao and Autroasiatic in
"Austric"). But we know that, and it's easy to filter that out.
54...@poboxes.com
>
> Wow, thanks for all of that info. Interesting.
>
>
> > "D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff" wrote:
> > >
> > > Kalani M. <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
> > > >Oi Chris,
> > > >> There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
> > > >> was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
> > > >> (Spring Roll).
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> > > However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> > > you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> > > Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> > > at home.
> >
> > (/lun+p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <lun2bing3> "wheel biscuit"), thinking in terms of it
> > being rolled up.
> >
> > However Douglas' 1873 Amoy dictionary has <lun7-pia~2> (/lun+q pia~+=s/ Mandarin
> > <nun4bing3> "delicate biscuit") which is defined as "thin tough cakes like
> > scones", which probably refers to the wrappers.
> >
> > Taiwanese say <chhun1-pia~2> (/ts'un=p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <chun1bing3> "spring
> > biscuit"), but that may be a more modern name. Further interrogation of my wife
> > elicited <lun7-pia~2-phe5> (/lun+q pia~+=s p'e+p/ Mandarin <nun4bing3pi2>
> > "delicate biscuit skin") as a general name for such wrappers.
> >
> > To me, the most likely possibility is that in the Philippines, the name for the
> > wrapper became the name for the wrapper-plus-filling. It's not unusual for
> > shifts like that to happen in emigrant communities. After all, the British and
> > the Americans don't mean the same thing by "biscuit". (If an American biscuit is
> > thin and crisp, something has gone terribly wrong.)
> >
Mike Wright
>
> Kalani M. wrote:
> >
> > Wow, thanks for all of that info. Interesting.
> >
> > Mike Wright wrote:
> > > Taiwanese say <chhun1-pia~2> (/ts'un=p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <chun1bing3> "spring
> > > biscuit"), but that may be a more modern name. Further interrogation of my wife
> > > elicited <lun7-pia~2-phe5> (/lun+q pia~+=s p'e+p/ Mandarin <nun4bing3pi2>
> > > "delicate biscuit skin") as a general name for such wrappers.
> > >
> In Teo Ciu dialect : Chun Pia
Do you nasalize the vowels in "pia"?
John Westera
>On Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:23:37 GMT, Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com>
>wrote:
>
>>So does anyone know where the name "Lumpia" came from? Could the Filipinos
>>have invented it and the Indonesians borrowed it (or vice versa) ?
>
>Vice versa. The word was probably introduced during the invasison by
>people from the Indonesian archipelago approx. 3000 (?) years ago. The
>same is true for words like "atjar" in Tagalog, although atjar in the
>Philippines is very different from the Indonesian atjar.
My "van Dale" Etymologisch Woordenboek says:
Loempia [gevuld pannekoekje] (filled pancake)
< Maleis (Malay) lumpia [idem]
<Chinees (Chinese) chuan [voorjaar] (spring), chuan [rollen] (roll),
thus the Engl. word SpringRoll
John Westera
----
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once"
-John Archibald Wheeler-
----
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~westera>
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On 3 Mar 1999 13:06:04 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Please don't cite Ruhlen as a reference for classification. A link to
> >the Ethnologue website would be helpful, or perhaps to the Britannica
> >(on-line you have to pay for, but the encyclopedia itself should be
> >available in virtually every English-community library in the world) or
> >the equivalent in other languages.
>
> But Ruhlen's classification is superior to that of Ethnologue
> (overspecified) and that of the Britannica (underspecified). The
> classifications follow generally the most recent (as of 1987) and
> mainstream works and views by specialists in the language
> families involved (Austronesian classification based on "Blust
> 1978, Pawley 1972, and others"), and they can almost always be
> cited without reservations.
>
> Ruhlen is idiosyncratic only at the very highest level of
> classification (for instance, he puts Austronesian in Austro-Tai,
> and Austro-Tai together with Miao-Yao and Autroasiatic in
> "Austric"). But we know that, and it's easy to filter that out.
But his actual list of languages is bizarre. There's no way of
determining how or whether he decided to include or exclude a particular
one. Of course I turn to Semitic (p. 323), and the catalog is just
flabbergasting.
Robato Yao
>No I do not know the origin, but since Tagalog is a
>component of Malay language, it is not surprising to
>find lots of such similarities. What everyone knows
>as 'Lumpia' in Indonesia and Philippines, is also
>known as 'Popia' in Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, and
>Southern Thailand.
Both have a Chinese origin, since I also hear popia being used in
Hokkien as well as lumpia. Both are not exactly the same dish though.
Rgds,
Chris
>
>Asking the origin of lumpia is like asking the origin
>of 'Anak' which means child in all the regions above.
>Anyway, if you find out the origin, I'd like to know
>too.
>
>
>
>*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
(counting down from top 50 oxymorons...)
10. Tight slacks
9. Definite maybe
8. Pretty ugly
7. Twelve-ounce pound cake
6. Diet ice cream
5. Rap music
4. Working vacation
3. Exact estimate
2. Religious tolerance
And the NUMBER ONE top oxy-MORON
1. Microsoft Works
---From the Top 50 Oxymorons (thanks to Richard Kennedy)
Robato Yao
>In article <F7x5n...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
>
>> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
>> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
>> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
>> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
>> at home.
>
>in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke.. Anyway
>here is what I found:
>
>From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
>
>"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
>Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
>Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese. ..."
>
>Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the Filipinos
>introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
Hokkien (never "Hoklo") Chinese predominate also in Indonesia, Singapore
and Malaysia as well as in the Philippines. As a merchant and economic
elite, the combined spin a very powerful intra-Asian financial network
that has no equal even with other overseas Chinese groups. The
Hokkien---Chinese communities in Singapore, Philippines, Malaysia and
Indonesia---actually regard themselves independently of the Taiwan Hoklo
who speak the same dialect, and place their motherland loyalty to the
Fujien province, not to Taiwan. This is because overseas Hokkien
all descended directly from Fujien, not from Taiwan. As a matter of
fact, Taiwanese lump Hokkien/Fujienese in the same category as all the
other "gua-saeng".
Rgds,
Chris
Rgds,
Chris
>
>--Chris
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Mabuhay-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Moderator and Designer of Tele-Arena 97 on the Game-Master.
>Modérateur et Dessinateur de Tele-Arena 97 sur le Maître de Jeu.
>Visit us at / Rendez-nous visite à http://www.game-master.com
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Robato Yao
>Chris S. wrote:
>> The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia
>
>I'd bet on China as the source for the Dutch word.
>People from Indonesia only came here in larger numbers in the early
>fifties. We've had more Chinese people since before then. Besides the
>Chinese have had more influence on our eating culture.
>
>Chinese lumpias are huge compared to Vietnamese or Filipino versions.
>If you buy them in the supermarket you'll get the Chinese variant.
>Vietnamese lumpias can be bought on every other street corner and
>contain very little or no meat compared to the Filipino version I know
>of.
The Filipino lumpia is a direct copy of the Hokkien lumpia, and there is
no reason why they should diverge, since they learned it directly from
the Fil-Chi community (Filipino-Chinese).
Vietnamese lumpia is actually bigger than Hokkien lumpia, partly because
they use a lot of roots of mongo beans. Both are actually very similar.
(All their histories are still too closely linked.)
>The Filipino version I know is "Lumpia Shanghai" so I'm not sure if it's
>Filipino by origin.
Both are also Chinese. Lumpia Shanghai is better known to the rest of
the world as your typical fried spring rolls. It's not exactly a
"Filipino" version, just what the Filipino popularly call spring
rolls.
Rgds,
Chris
>
>--
>Peter Manders.
>
>Please remove the 'u' to reply.
Robato Yao
Mike, have you really ever eaten this thing? You don't sound like it.
Rgds,
Chris
In <36DACF6F...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
>"D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff" wrote:
>>
>> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
>> Kalani M. <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
>> >Oi Chris,
>[...]
>> >> There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
>> >> was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
>> >> (Spring Roll).
>> [snip]
>>
>> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
>> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
>> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
>> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
>> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
>> at home.
>
>Good guess. Up to now, my guess had always been Holo/Hokkien <lun5-pia~2>
>(/lun+p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <lun2bing3> "wheel biscuit"), thinking in terms of it
>being rolled up.
>
>However Douglas' 1873 Amoy dictionary has <lun7-pia~2> (/lun+q pia~+=s/ Mandarin
><nun4bing3> "delicate biscuit") which is defined as "thin tough cakes like
>scones", which probably refers to the wrappers.
>
>Taiwanese say <chhun1-pia~2> (/ts'un=p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <chun1bing3> "spring
>biscuit"), but that may be a more modern name. Further interrogation of my wife
>elicited <lun7-pia~2-phe5> (/lun+q pia~+=s p'e+p/ Mandarin <nun4bing3pi2>
>"delicate biscuit skin") as a general name for such wrappers.
>
>To me, the most likely possibility is that in the Philippines, the name for the
>wrapper became the name for the wrapper-plus-filling. It's not unusual for
>shifts like that to happen in emigrant communities. After all, the British and
>the Americans don't mean the same thing by "biscuit". (If an American biscuit is
>thin and crisp, something has gone terribly wrong.)
>
>--
>Mike Wright
>http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
>_____________________________________________________
>"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
>-- Charles de Gaulle
Robato Yao
>Kalani M. wrote:
>>
>> Oi Chris,
>>
>> Interesting. But I highly doubt that word is spanish. But your Chinese origin
>> seems logical, although I really don't know what they call it there. But you
>> might be right, it might be of Chinese origin...the word I mean.
>
>dish: **hopia**?
Hopia is not another Filipino dish. It's "mooncake" for Hokkien
Chinese. Every Chinese knows mooncake, just not what the Hokkien calls
it.
Another Filipino dish related to Chinese is tohu, which is better known
as tofu for the rest of you (but with a Hokkienized pronounciation.
The vendors carry it door to door on their shoulder or on a bike. It's
deeply mixed in molasses being the main distinction of the Philippine
version.
I look at other dishes. Paella and sorbetes is definitely Spanish, but
halo-halo (one of my favorites) seem distinctly austronesian and I
wonder if other island cultures have this.
>
>I'm guessing wildly here, but there's that last syllable "-pia", and it
>does involve a dough wrapper of sorts, though thicker and cakier. And
>hopia, with its mung bean filling, betrays its Chinese origins.
Yes. You got it right. Less popular is popia, which is based on a
white thick wrapper similar to the one used in siopao. Popia is done
like a Chinese Taco, but using pieces of a darkly sauced beef---very
similar to what the Filipinos would call "adobo" and what the Japanese
would call "gyuniku".
Rgds,
Chris
>
>
>-- Chris
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Discourage inbreeding. Outlaw country music.
>For every moral absolute there's a qualification.
>
>To reply by email, remove the 'd' from my address.
>------------------------------------------------------------------
Robato Yao
>
>--------------709B0380D0E65F24020481B1
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>well.. i am not qualified to report on the origin of lumpia. but it is one of
>my very favorite dishes... and will always be of philippine origin to me, in my
I always feel that lumpia is a very Chinese thing. To eat lumpia, you
cannot eat it *alone*. The amount of food required to prepare---the
thin white wrappers, the huge leaves of lettuce, the mixed chow
consisting of thinly sliced tohu+carrot+veggies+chicken+pork, requires
a few large bowls, and the preparation of the ingredients is a team
effort (except for the wrapper, which you buy at the store.)
To eat lumpia is a family event plus cousins and friends
Of course it leaves a mess. Eating it down to one third or one fourth,
it always somehow disintegrates in my hands, leaving a mess, and from
then on, I have to scoop the contents with a spoon.
It's not hard to prepare this, so long as you have the source for the
thin white wrappers.
>heart.. (my first favorite dish is chicken adobo... but i guess that's not
>counting the the bar-b-q monkey we used to eat.. marinated in soy, 7up, water,
I guess it's not as weird as the fruit bat delicacy in Guam.
Rgds,
Chris
>onion and garlic ((unfortunately THAT'S not a delicacy for the taking in the
>US)) i've tried it w/chicken, it's not quite the same).... basically, i have no
>help to offer. Just thought i'd offer my opinion of the dish!!
>
>hch wrote:
>
>> Misschien kun le hier iets vinden.
>>
>> http://www.goto.com/d/search/p/befree/?Promo=befree00003869940081559462&Keyw
>> ords=lumpia
>>
>> hch
>>
>> Chris S. wrote in message <7bdmai$24q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>> >
>> >
>> >Hiya,
>> >
>> >I was looking through a Dutch phrasebook in the bookstore a couple of days
>> >ago, and I found something that surprised me.
>> >
>> >There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it
>> there
>> >was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it
>> was
>> >(Spring Roll).
>> >
>> >Now this surprised me since I (and many Filipinos) thought the Filipinos
>> gave
>> >it the name and that I found it in a Dutch phrase book! (I knew that they
>> >somehow came from China).
>> >
>> >The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia, since The
>> Netherlands
>> >and Indonesia had some things related to each other. But the thing is I
>> have
>> >never heard of Lumpia related to Indonesia. Neither does the word look
>> >"Chinese" to me.
>> >
>> >So does anyone know where the name "Lumpia" came from? Could the Filipinos
>> >have invented it and the Indonesians borrowed it (or vice versa) ? Or
>> maybe
>> >it's disguised as Chinese "loom pi ya" (I don't speak Chinese, btw).... Or
>> >could it be Spanish? Though I couldn't find it in my Spanish dictionary...
>> >
>> >Any info regarding this would satsify my curiosity... and be appreciated ;)
>> >
>> >Thanks...!
>> >
>> >--Chris
>> >
>> >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Mabuhay-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>> >Moderator and Designer of Tele-Arena 97 on the Game-Master.
>> >Modérateur et Dessinateur de Tele-Arena 97 sur le Maître de Jeu.
>> >Visit us at / Rendez-nous visite à http://www.game-master.com
>> >
>> >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
>
>
>--------------709B0380D0E65F24020481B1
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><HTML>
>well.. i am not qualified to report on the origin of lumpia. but
>it is one of my very favorite dishes... and will always be of philippine
>origin to me, in my heart.. (my first favorite dish is chicken adobo...
>but i guess that's not counting the the bar-b-q monkey we used to eat..
>marinated in soy, 7up, water, onion and garlic ((unfortunately THAT'S not
>a delicacy for the taking in the US)) i've tried it w/chicken, it's not
>quite the same).... basically, i have no help to offer. Just thought
>i'd offer my opinion of the dish!!
>
><P>hch wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Misschien kun le hier iets vinden.
>
><P><A HREF="http://www.goto.com/d/search/p/befree/?Promo=befree00003869940081559462&Keyw">http://www.goto.com/d/search/p/befree/?Promo=befree00003869940081559462&Keyw</A>
><BR>ords=lumpia
>
><P>hch
>
><P>Chris S. wrote in message <7bdmai$24q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
><BR>>
><BR>>
><BR>>Hiya,
><BR>>
><BR>>I was looking through a Dutch phrasebook in the bookstore a couple
>of days
><BR>>ago, and I found something that surprised me.
><BR>>
><BR>>There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under
>it
><BR>there
><BR>>was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and
>what it
><BR>was
><BR>>(Spring Roll).
><BR>>
><BR>>Now this surprised me since I (and many Filipinos) thought the Filipinos
><BR>gave
><BR>>it the name and that I found it in a Dutch phrase book! (I knew that
>they
><BR>>somehow came from China).
><BR>>
><BR>>The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia, since The
><BR>Netherlands
><BR>>and Indonesia had some things related to each other. But the
>thing is I
><BR>have
><BR>>never heard of Lumpia related to Indonesia. Neither does the
>word look
><BR>>"Chinese" to me.
><BR>>
><BR>>So does anyone know where the name "Lumpia" came from? Could the Filipinos
><BR>>have invented it and the Indonesians borrowed it (or vice versa) ?
>Or
><BR>maybe
><BR>>it's disguised as Chinese "loom pi ya" (I don't speak Chinese, btw)....
>Or
><BR>>could it be Spanish? Though I couldn't find it in my Spanish
>dictionary...
><BR>>
><BR>>Any info regarding this would satsify my curiosity... and be appreciated
>;)
><BR>>
><BR>>Thanks...!
><BR>>
><BR>>--Chris
><BR>>
><BR>>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Mabuhay-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
><BR>>Moderator and Designer of Tele-Arena 97 on the Game-Master.
><BR>>Modérateur et Dessinateur de Tele-Arena 97 sur le Maître
>de Jeu.
><BR>>Visit us at / Rendez-nous visite à <A HREF="http://www.game-master.com">http://www.game-master.com</A>
><BR>>
><BR>>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
><BR>><A HREF="http://www.dejanews.com/">http://www.dejanews.com/</A>
>Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own</BLOCKQUOTE>
> </HTML>
>
>--------------709B0380D0E65F24020481B1--
Robato Yao
>Chris S. wrote:
>> The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia
>
>I'd bet on China as the source for the Dutch word.
>People from Indonesia only came here in larger numbers in the early
>fifties. We've had more Chinese people since before then. Besides the
>Chinese have had more influence on our eating culture.
>
>Chinese lumpias are huge compared to Vietnamese or Filipino versions.
>If you buy them in the supermarket you'll get the Chinese variant.
>Vietnamese lumpias can be bought on every other street corner and
>contain very little or no meat compared to the Filipino version I know
>of.
In addition to my other posted answer, I have a feeling you may be
refering to another form of lumpia, one that is much smaller and uses
bamboo shoots, often served with banana leaves and dipped in a sweet
sauce. That too is of Chinese origin.
Rgds,
Chris
>The Filipino version I know is "Lumpia Shanghai" so I'm not sure if it's
>Filipino by origin.
>
>--
>Peter Manders.
>
>Please remove the 'u' to reply.
>
>
Robato Yao
>Mike Wright wrote:
>>
>> Some other posters a couple of years back, mentioned that the ethnic Chinese on
>> the island of Penang, Malaysia are mostly from Eng-chhun (Mandarin Yong3chhun1,
>> "Eternal Spring", about as far north of Quanzhou as Quanzhou is of Xiamen) in
>> Fujian Province. It's basically Hokkien/Holo, but they had a few examples of odd
>> vocabulary, including "ha-mi" (probably [ha mi~?]) for "what", contrasting with
>> Xiamem/Zhangzhou/Quanzhou <sim-mih>.
>>
>> Mike Wright
>> http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
>> _____________________________________________________
>> "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
>> -- Charles de Gaulle
>
>Hokkien-speaking community. Semarang and the north shore of Central Java had many
>Hokkien speakers.
>
>For market research in Medan in 1974 we needed to form a Hokkien-speaking team, along
>with Javanese and Batak teams. The Indonesian-only team didn't get very far.
>
>I worked for some time with a group of Chinese companies controlled by a Hokkienese
>family. It is now one of the major publicly listed companies.
>
>I found it fascinating to listen to the directors conducting a board meeting in
>Hokkien. At first I thought they were going to kill each other, but I was assured
>that they were just using a normal conversational tone - normal for them, that is.
Excellent observation.
However, all Chinese, regardless of dialect, would discuss things like
they're screaming at each other.
Rgds,
Chris
>
>--
>Salaam & Shalom
>
>Izzy
>
>"So I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse..."
>
> from "My Struggle", by Alfred E Neuman
>
>
Robato Yao
>Chris S. wrote:
>> The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia
>Filipino by origin.
>
By the way, everyone needs to know that Lumpia Shanghai has nothing to
do with Shanghai or Shanghainese. Put it in the same category as that
other Filipino dish, Pancit Canton, which also has nothing with Canton.
Rgds,
Chris
Robato Yao
>In article <7bfgvc$ll2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>>> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
>>
>>> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
>>> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
>>> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
>>> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
>>> at home.
>>
>>in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke.. Anyway
>>here is what I found:
>>
>>From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
>>
>>"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
>>Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
>>Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese. ..."
>>
>>Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the Filipinos
>>introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
>
>Hoklo, but I'm not sure), although Hakka, Teochiu, and other groups are
>represented. The majority of Filipino Chinese are Hoklo (particularly
>Quanzhouese).
Not entirely Quanzhouese. Many are also from Amoy and ajoining areas.
I am particularly from Chinkang.
All of them are Hokkien, not Hoklo (Taiwanese variation).
Rgds,
Chris
>--
> Daniel "Da" von Brighoff /\ Dilettanten
> (de...@midway.uchicago.edu) /__\ erhebt Euch
> /____\ gegen die Kunst!
Peter T. Daniels
> Another Filipino dish related to Chinese is tohu, which is better known
> as tofu for the rest of you (but with a Hokkienized pronounciation.
> The vendors carry it door to door on their shoulder or on a bike. It's
> deeply mixed in molasses being the main distinction of the Philippine
> version.
Tofu in the US is taken to be Japanese, perhaps because we first
encountered it in "sukiyaki" (which is apparently the Japanese
equivalent of "chop suey" -- it's no longer offered at Japanese
restaurants).
Kalani M.
Robato Yao wrote:
>
>
> By the way, everyone needs to know that Lumpia Shanghai has nothing to
> do with Shanghai or Shanghainese. Put it in the same category as that
> other Filipino dish, Pancit Canton, which also has nothing with Canton.
>
Hmm, sounds like Hawaiian Pizza. Nothing to do with Hawaii. :-)
Chris S.
cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Robato Yao) wrote:
> Both have a Chinese origin, since I also hear popia being used in
> Hokkien as well as lumpia. Both are not exactly the same dish though.
Where is Hokkien anyway? Where in China, that is. :)
Mike Wright
>
> Mike, have you really ever eaten this thing? You don't sound like it.
I've eaten a Filipino version at a restaurants. (We have a large Fil-Am
community here.) I've eaten Taiwanese-style "spring rolls" cooked by my wife.
I've had "egg rolls" that sound like what Tak To describes as Shanghai style,
though the restaurant was supposedly Cantonese.
Which part of the description do you have a problem with?
> Rgds,
>
> Chris
>
> In <36DACF6F...@mbay.net>, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> writes:
> >"D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff" wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> >> Kalani M. <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
> >> >Oi Chris,
> >[...]
> >> >> There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
> >> >> was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
> >> >> (Spring Roll).
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> >> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those dialects.
> >> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> >> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu or
> >> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> >> at home.
> >
> >Good guess. Up to now, my guess had always been Holo/Hokkien <lun5-pia~2>
> >(/lun+p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <lun2bing3> "wheel biscuit"), thinking in terms of it
> >being rolled up.
> >
> >However Douglas' 1873 Amoy dictionary has <lun7-pia~2> (/lun+q pia~+=s/ Mandarin
> ><nun4bing3> "delicate biscuit") which is defined as "thin tough cakes like
> >scones", which probably refers to the wrappers.
> >
> >Taiwanese say <chhun1-pia~2> (/ts'un=p pia~+=s/ Mandarin <chun1bing3> "spring
> >biscuit"), but that may be a more modern name. Further interrogation of my wife
> >elicited <lun7-pia~2-phe5> (/lun+q pia~+=s p'e+p/ Mandarin <nun4bing3pi2>
> >"delicate biscuit skin") as a general name for such wrappers.
> >
> >To me, the most likely possibility is that in the Philippines, the name for the
> >wrapper became the name for the wrapper-plus-filling. It's not unusual for
> >shifts like that to happen in emigrant communities. After all, the British and
> >the Americans don't mean the same thing by "biscuit". (If an American biscuit is
> >thin and crisp, something has gone terribly wrong.)
> >
> >--
> >Mike Wright
> >http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
> >_____________________________________________________
> >"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
> >-- Charles de Gaulle
>
> (counting down from top 50 oxymorons...)
> 10. Tight slacks
> 9. Definite maybe
> 8. Pretty ugly
> 7. Twelve-ounce pound cake
> 6. Diet ice cream
> 5. Rap music
> 4. Working vacation
> 3. Exact estimate
> 2. Religious tolerance
> And the NUMBER ONE top oxy-MORON
> 1. Microsoft Works
> ---From the Top 50 Oxymorons (thanks to Richard Kennedy)
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <7bl42r$jl2$1...@brokaw.wa.com>,
> cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Robato Yao) wrote:
>
>> Both have a Chinese origin, since I also hear popia being used in
>> Hokkien as well as lumpia. Both are not exactly the same dish though.
>
>Where is Hokkien anyway? Where in China, that is. :)
Nowadays, maps say "Fujian". In earlier times, they said "Fukien". It's
basically the coast of China opposite Taiwan (which explains why most
Taiwanese speak a Hokkien dialect).
Mike Wright
>
> In article <7bl42r$jl2$1...@brokaw.wa.com>,
> cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Robato Yao) wrote:
>
> > Both have a Chinese origin, since I also hear popia being used in
> > Hokkien as well as lumpia. Both are not exactly the same dish though.
>
> Where is Hokkien anyway? Where in China, that is. :)
It's Fujian Province (formerly Fukien). It's on the southern coast, opposite
Taiwan. The dialects referred to as "Hokkien" are from Xiamen (formerly Amoy)
and the surrounding towns and villages. It doesn't include all the
languages/dialects of Fujian Province. Dialects of Hokkien are spoken on Taiwan,
where some folks refer to them as "Holo" or "Hoklo" (or "Holok", or "Haklo", or ...).
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/langauge.html
Robato Yao
If you are going to encounter the Filipino variation, you will find it
immersed on a sweet brownish sauce based on molasses. It is soft,
almost like liquid, and scooped with a Chinese style spoon. It could
have been originally a Hokkien variation, but it became quite popular
with Filipinos with their sweet tooth. The way it is also called by
Filipinos, "tohu", is also in the Hokkien style. Notice that Filipinos
also use the imported word "tofu" but it has become to mean the more
solid and usual variety of tofu, such that "tofu" and "tohu" become two
seperate meanings and foods.
Rgds,
Chris
Robato Yao
>Robato Yao wrote:
>
>> Another Filipino dish related to Chinese is tohu, which is better known
>> as tofu for the rest of you (but with a Hokkienized pronounciation.
>> The vendors carry it door to door on their shoulder or on a bike. It's
>> deeply mixed in molasses being the main distinction of the Philippine
>> version.
>
>Tofu in the US is taken to be Japanese, perhaps because we first
>encountered it in "sukiyaki" (which is apparently the Japanese
>equivalent of "chop suey" -- it's no longer offered at Japanese
>restaurants).
>--
>Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
I failed to mention that there is a deeply fried variation of tofu that
the Filipinos, probably also taken from the Hokkien community, a food
that they call to-qua.
Thus you have three variations:
tohu
tofu
toqua
Robato Yao
There is also what the Filipinos call Lutong Macao. But it's really not
a food, nor does it have anything to do with Macao. Rather, Lutong
Macao is a term for inventive "bullshit".
I forgot to mention that there is what may be a real Filipino style of
lumpia that is called Lumpia Ubod.
This is uncooked, with yellowish wrappers, and is about three to four
inches long and about 1 centimeter thick. It uses a sweet sauce and
it's got raw young juicy bamboo shoots in it.
Robato Yao
>Robato Yao wrote:
>>
>> Mike, have you really ever eaten this thing? You don't sound like it.
>
>I've eaten a Filipino version at a restaurants. (We have a large Fil-Am
Is it small and yellowish? That would be Lumpia Ubod.
>community here.) I've eaten Taiwanese-style "spring rolls" cooked by my wife.
There is also a Singapore variation that is a bit more sweet and has a
lot more stripped carrots and uses dried rice noodles. Quite influenced
by Malaysian style cuisine.
>I've had "egg rolls" that sound like what Tak To describes as Shanghai style,
>though the restaurant was supposedly Cantonese.
>
>Which part of the description do you have a problem with?
>
Did you roll the lumpia by your own hands?
Is it way too big that it's impossible to use a chopstick and that you
just hold the lumpia with *both* hands? One hand on the end, and the
other holding the body. About 2" wide in diameter and 6 to 7 inches in
length?
Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}
D> Nowadays, maps say "Fujian".
This is based on the Mandarin pronunciations of the 2 characters.
D> In earlier times, they said "Fukien".
This resembles the local pronunciation more closely, because the
second character (i.e. syllable) begins with the [k] sound. (Anyway,
the Fukien dialects lack the [f] sound. So, it doesn't really come
close to the local pronunciation.)
D> It's basically the coast of China opposite Taiwan
D> (which explains why most Taiwanese speak a Hokkien dialect).
This is not "why" most Taiwanese speak a Hokkien dialect. Most
Chinese descendants in SE Asia (Malaysia, Philipines, Indonesia) speak
Hokkien, too, but these places are no closer to Fujian than Hong Kong
and Macau.
The real reason is that most Han people in Taiwan are immigrants from
Fujian or their descendents. The Fujian people spread themselves out
in SE Asia in the past few centuries (perhaps because their sailing
skills were much better than other places in China, and Fujian had
some other problems that made the people leave their homes).
--
Lee Sau Dan �,X)wAV(Big5) ~{@nJX6X~}(HZ)
.----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| http://www.cs.hku.hk/~sdlee e-mail: sd...@cs.hku.hk |
`----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}
Mike> I've eaten a Filipino version at a restaurants. (We have a
Mike> large Fil-Am community here.) I've eaten Taiwanese-style
Mike> "spring rolls" cooked by my wife.
There are also Thai and Vietnamese versions of spring rolls.
Mike> I've had "egg rolls" that
Mike> sound like what Tak To describes as Shanghai style, though
Mike> the restaurant was supposedly Cantonese.
I'm not sure if all of you in this thread are confusing spring rolls
with egg rolls. In HK, these are completely different things (except
that both are edible... :P). Spring rolls <chun1juan3> are rolls
with a deep-fried, crisp outer layer (made from flour), and various
food warped inside. Egg need not be an ingredient. Egg rolls
<dan4juan3>, on the other hand, are roasted sheets of eggs rolled into
a cylindrical shape (without the top and bottom discs). They're
HOLLOW inside.
Bill Vaughan
<motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
>
>
>Robato Yao wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> By the way, everyone needs to know that Lumpia Shanghai has nothing to
>> do with Shanghai or Shanghainese. Put it in the same category as that
>> other Filipino dish, Pancit Canton, which also has nothing with Canton.
>>
>
>Hmm, sounds like Hawaiian Pizza. Nothing to do with Hawaii. :-)
>
Nothing to do with pizza either. :P~~~~~~~
Tak To
> I'm not sure if all of you in this thread are confusing spring
> rolls with egg rolls. In HK, these are completely different
> things (except that both are edible... :P). Spring rolls
> <chun1juan3> are rolls with a deep-fried, crisp outer layer
> (made from flour), and various food warped inside. Egg need
> not be an ingredient. Egg rolls <dan4juan3>, on the other
> hand, are roasted sheets of eggs rolled into a cylindrical shape
> (without the top and bottom discs). They're HOLLOW inside.
I don't think there is any confusion here, since the kind of
<dan4juan3> that you mention is virtually unknown outside of
the Chinese community.
Notes on the styles and names found in the US.
-- Before the mid-70's, most Chinese restaurants in the US were
Chinese-American (Cantonese-American) restaurants that had a
somewhat standardized menu known (and rediculed) by most
Chinese food aficionados of that era. The dishes had little
resemblance with those of the same name in China. E.g.,
"chow mein" is a dish with soggy non-descript shredded
vegetable and meat in a thick corn starch sauce. There
were no noodles; instead, chrunchy pretzel sticks were
sprinkled on top of this mess. (Americans still love
this and one can buy American-Chinese food of this
style in a can in the supermarket.)
Well, "egg roll" of that era was essentially what Peter has
described: cylindrical and thick (about 1" to 1.5" in
diameter) and the main filler was shredded cabbage. It was
deep fried but the wrapper somehow turned soggy very quickly,
probably due to the moisture from the cabbage. (I am
somewhat biased on this matter, so it might sound worse than
it was.)
I have no idea why they were called "egg rolls" since egg
was not an ingredient. It could be from the homophonic "spring"
-"egg" connection in Cantonese, but I cannot see why the first
translator would choose "egg" instead of "spring". Perhaps
he did not know Chinese at all, and whoever hired him could
not explain what "spring" was.
-- Along came the wave of Szechuan-Hunan restaurant and their hot
and spicy dishes in the late 70's and early 80's. Eager to
distinguish themselves from their -- shall we say, blander --
brethens, they served "spring rolls" instead of "egg rolls".
The item was basically of the Shanghai style: cylindrical,
about .5" to .75" in diameter, with rather thin wrappers.
The filler was also different; and the wrapper stayed crunchy
longer.
This is probably the style that is most widely available in
the US nowadays. Even the (Chinese-run) pseudo-Japanese
fast food joints in shopping malls have them, sometimes under
the name "maki roll".
-- True Cantonese spring rolls have always been available within
Chinatown but they have become more common since only the mid-
80's. True Cantonese spring rolls have a *squashed* cylindrical
shape, and are longer and wider than the Shanghai style.
The wrapper is thicker, darker in color, and slightly crunchier
as well. Unlike the above two, which are treated as appetizers
in a Western style meal; true Cantonese spring rolls are served
almost only as dimsum (<dian3xin1>) in a traditional Cantonese
"morning tea" type meal. Probably due to confusion with the
other two styles, I have rarely seen Americans interested in
them. True Cantonese style spring rolls should be cut when
served, and topped with Worcestershire sauce.
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.edu.-
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the .- to get my real email addr
Ben Zimmer
>
> On 4 Mar 1999 23:52:28 GMT, cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Robato Yao) wrote:
>
> # In <36DE7E...@worldnet.att.net>, "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> # >Robato Yao wrote:
> # >
> # >> Another Filipino dish related to Chinese is tohu, which is better known
> # >> as tofu for the rest of you (but with a Hokkienized pronounciation.
> # >> The vendors carry it door to door on their shoulder or on a bike. It's
> # >> deeply mixed in molasses being the main distinction of the Philippine
> # >> version.
> # >
> # >Tofu in the US is taken to be Japanese, perhaps because we first
> # >encountered it in "sukiyaki" (which is apparently the Japanese
> # >equivalent of "chop suey" -- it's no longer offered at Japanese
> # >restaurants).
> # >--
> # >Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
> #
> #
> # I failed to mention that there is a deeply fried variation of tofu that
> # the Filipinos, probably also taken from the Hokkien community, a food
> # that they call to-qua.
> #
> # Thus you have three variations:
> #
> # tohu
> # tofu
> # toqua
> #
> # Rgds,
> #
>
> Tagalog Mandarin Fujien
> -------------------------------------------------
> Tahu Tou-Fu Tau-hu
> Toqua Tou-Kan Tau-qua
> Taho Tou-Hua Tau-huei
Indonesian has "tahu" but no "taho." And "takua" is "a kind of firm
spiced tofu" according to Echols & Shadily.
Then there's tauge (bean sprouts) and tauci/tauco (fermented bean
paste)...
--Ben
Peter T. Daniels
> Notes on the styles and names found in the US.
>
> -- Before the mid-70's, most Chinese restaurants in the US were
> Chinese-American (Cantonese-American) restaurants that had a
> somewhat standardized menu known (and rediculed) by most
> Chinese food aficionados of that era. The dishes had little
> resemblance with those of the same name in China. E.g.,
> "chow mein" is a dish with soggy non-descript shredded
> vegetable and meat in a thick corn starch sauce. There
> were no noodles; instead, chrunchy pretzel sticks were
> sprinkled on top of this mess. (Americans still love
> this and one can buy American-Chinese food of this
> style in a can in the supermarket.)
Chow mein fried noodles are nothing like pretzels! (Except they're both
crunchy.) (Well, maybe the La Choy canned ones are pretzel-like in being
rods rather than ribbons.)
> Well, "egg roll" of that era was essentially what Peter has
> described: cylindrical and thick (about 1" to 1.5" in
> diameter) and the main filler was shredded cabbage. It was
> deep fried but the wrapper somehow turned soggy very quickly,
> probably due to the moisture from the cabbage. (I am
> somewhat biased on this matter, so it might sound worse than
> it was.)
So why did you leave them sitting around long enough to get soggy? Is
that also what you do with tacos?
> -- True Cantonese spring rolls have always been available within
> Chinatown but they have become more common since only the mid-
> 80's. True Cantonese spring rolls have a *squashed* cylindrical
> shape, and are longer and wider than the Shanghai style.
> The wrapper is thicker, darker in color, and slightly crunchier
> as well. Unlike the above two, which are treated as appetizers
> in a Western style meal; true Cantonese spring rolls are served
> almost only as dimsum (<dian3xin1>) in a traditional Cantonese
> "morning tea" type meal. Probably due to confusion with the
> other two styles, I have rarely seen Americans interested in
> them. True Cantonese style spring rolls should be cut when
> served, and topped with Worcestershire sauce.
Chicago has lots of acclaimed dim sum places (mostly for Sunday brunch)
and I never encountered spring rolls among the offerings. (I guess there
must be some in NY, too; any suggestions?)
But then Cantonese restaurants were pretty much driven out by the
sophisticates, and didn't do dim sum anyway.
tulisan
deal"... as in: i lost in the elections because it was lutong macao from the
start.
tulisan
ykyplus356
>
> The Fujien dialect spoken by the Chinese in Philippines and Singapore (I don't
> know about Indonesia and Malaysia) are Fuchow, the Fujien Fujien dialect are no
> longer spoken by the last few Chinese generation in Philippines and Singapore.
>
I have doubts on this. The FuJian dialect spoken in Malaysia and
Singapore and called FuJian Hua is also known as Min Nan Hua, which is
quite different from FuZhou Hua. The FuJian Hua spoken in Malaysia and
Singapore are slightly different in accent. It's different enough for a
Singaporean to tell who is from Malaysia.
> I had heard my father and my uncle speak in the actual Fujien dialect, we
> couldn't understand one single word. And since most of the Filipino Chinese are
> from Fujien and what they spoke are dialect from Fujien, it was then taken as
> their spoken dialect are Fujien dialect.
>
What is "actual Fujien dialect"? There are so many dialects spoken in
FuJian. Some said each village has its own dialect. FuZhou and FuQing
are only 40 miles apart and the languages spoken there are not quite the
same. A friend of mine, a Hakka, when going back to his parents' home
towns in southern Min, could only understand about 10% of what his
father's villagers were saying though he had no problem understood his
mother's. Yet both are Hakka.
> Here in Taiwan, the southern (Tainan) local dialect are much more similar to the
> Fuchow or Fujien dialect spoken by the Filipino Chinese, but the norther people
> speak with a heavier accent, which are also direct desendant from Fujien.
People in Tainan speak QuanZhou Hua because Zheng ChengGong and his
subordinates were QuanZhou folks. People in Taipei speak ZhangZhou Hua.
Both belong to Min Nan Hua. Yet people can tell the difference.
Patrick Chew
D> Nowadays, maps say "Fujian".
"Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}" wrote:
> This is based on the Mandarin pronunciations of the 2 characters.
> D> In earlier times, they said "Fukien".
"Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}" wrote:
> This resembles the local pronunciation more closely, because the
> second character (i.e. syllable) begins with the [k] sound. (Anyway,
> the Fukien dialects lack the [f] sound. So, it doesn't really come
> close to the local pronunciation.)
Actually some Fukien dialects *do* have /f/ [f]. It's only the dialects
which self designate themselves as Hokkian/Holo that don't.. that is,
the dialects we classify as Minnan. Mindong (formerly Minbei) dialects
like Fuzhou, have [f].
The choice of using Fukien is analogous to Peking... it's based on an
earlier version of Mandarin or Cantonese, rather than local
pronunciation.
cheers,
-Patrick
Mike Wright
>
> On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:52:20 -0700, Mike Wright <dar...@mbay.net> wrote:
>
> # "Chris S." wrote:
> # >
> # > In article <7bl42r$jl2$1...@brokaw.wa.com>,> # > > Both have a Chinese origin, since I also hear popia being used in
> # > > Hokkien as well as lumpia. Both are not exactly the same dish though.
> # >
> # > Where is Hokkien anyway? Where in China, that is. :)
> #
> # It's Fujian Province (formerly Fukien). It's on the southern coast, opposite
> # Taiwan. The dialects referred to as "Hokkien" are from Xiamen (formerly Amoy)
> # and the surrounding towns and villages. It doesn't include all the
> # languages/dialects of Fujian Province. Dialects of Hokkien are spoken on Taiwan,
> # where some folks refer to them as "Holo" or "Hoklo" (or "Holok", or "Haklo", or ...).
>
> The Fujien dialect spoken by the Chinese in Philippines and Singapore (I don't
> know about Indonesia and Malaysia) are Fuchow, the Fujien Fujien dialect are no
> longer spoken by the last few Chinese generation in Philippines and Singapore.
Don't tell Chris Robato that. (I'm sure he'll come in on this soon.)
> I had heard my father and my uncle speak in the actual Fujien dialect, we
> couldn't understand one single word. And since most of the Filipino Chinese are
> from Fujien and what they spoke are dialect from Fujien, it was then taken as
> their spoken dialect are Fujien dialect.
>
> Here in Taiwan, the southern (Tainan) local dialect are much more similar to the
> Fuchow or Fujien dialect spoken by the Filipino Chinese, but the norther people
> speak with a heavier accent, which are also direct desendant from Fujien.
Funny. My wife (from Taipei) says that the people of Taichung, Kaohsiung, and
Tainan speak with heavy accents.
Fuzhou is a Northern Min dialect. It is quite different from the Southern Min
dialects of the Xiamen area and Taiwan. I doubt that they are mutually
intelligible at all. The sound systems are quite different. For example, Fuzhou
has no final [-p], [-t], [-m], or [-n]. It also lacks the denasalized voiced
initials [b-] and [g-], as well as all the nasalized vowels. Finally, it *does*
have consonant sandhi, where the initial consonants of non-initial syllables in
compounds change into other consonants. The vocabularies differ somewhat, too,
so where a Xiamen speaker says /ts'ua33-11 bO51/ or /ts'ua33-11 laN24/ for "to
take a wife", a Fuzhou speaker says /t'O31 ziN44/ (where the /z/ of /ziN44/ is
derived by consonant sandhi from /ts'/.) The tone contours are also different,
though the tone categories are the same.
--
Mike Wright
http://www.mbay.net/~darwin/language.html
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
>spook wrote:o", or ...).
>>
>> The Fujien dialect spoken by the Chinese in Philippines and Singapore (I don't
>> know about Indonesia and Malaysia) are Fuchow, the Fujien Fujien dialect are no
>> longer spoken by the last few Chinese generation in Philippines and Singapore.
>>
>Singapore and called FuJian Hua is also known as Min Nan Hua, which is
>quite different from FuZhou Hua. The FuJian Hua spoken in Malaysia and
>Singapore are slightly different in accent. It's different enough for a
>Singaporean to tell who is from Malaysia.
>
>> couldn't understand one single word. And since most of the Filipino Chinese are
>> from Fujien and what they spoke are dialect from Fujien, it was then taken as
>> their spoken dialect are Fujien dialect.
>>
>FuJian. Some said each village has its own dialect.
The saying in Datian xian (west-central Fujian) is "people separated by a
blade of grass cannot understand each other". In the 70's, government of-
ficials estimated that three major and 10+ minor dialects were spoken
there. Reportedly, fluent speakers of both Fuzhou/Hokchiu and Amoy/Hok-
kien/ Holo still can't make head or tails of any of them.
Mike Wright
>
> spook wrote:o", or ...).
> > Here in Taiwan, the southern (Tainan) local dialect are much more similar to the
> > Fuchow or Fujien dialect spoken by the Filipino Chinese, but the norther people
> > speak with a heavier accent, which are also direct desendant from Fujien.
>
> subordinates were QuanZhou folks. People in Taipei speak ZhangZhou Hua.
> Both belong to Min Nan Hua. Yet people can tell the difference.
On paper, my wife's Taipei dialect seems closest to Xiamen dialect, but she
insists that Xiamenese have easily detectable accents. On the other hand,
speaking of a young man who had moved from somewhere in Malaysia to Taipei, she
said that he could already speak "Taiwanese" when he arrived, which I took to
mean that he didn't seem to have much of an accent to her. Her mother had a
neighbor who was from Fuzhou, who had come in the big KMT exodus as a young man
(it was in about 1964-65 that I met him). He had learned the local Hokkien
dialect, but according to my wife, he spoke with a terrible accent. When she
wants to insult my Hokkien speech, she says that I sound like a Fuzhouren.
BTW, I suspect that the various dialect areas of Taiwan no longer quite match
their ancestral dialect areas on the mainland. They've had at least as long to
diverge as American and British English have.
ykyplus356
>
> with egg rolls. In HK, these are completely different things (except
> that both are edible... :P). Spring rolls <chun1juan3> are rolls
> with a deep-fried, crisp outer layer (made from flour), and various
> food warped inside. Egg need not be an ingredient. Egg rolls
> <dan4juan3>, on the other hand, are roasted sheets of eggs rolled into
> a cylindrical shape (without the top and bottom discs). They're
> HOLLOW inside.
>
I'm not sure if all of you in this thread are confusing spring rolls
with fried spring rolls. If spring rolls are deep fried, what is a
"fried spring roll" (Zha Chun Juan)? Has anyone ever had one that is not
fried? What is it called?
The lumpia I had was fairly big, twice as long as the egg rolls served
in Chinese restaurants. It was longer than a pencil or ball pen. It was
not fried and needed to be held by two hands. I think what I had and
what Robato Yao described are one of a kind. The wrapper was made the
way Tak To described, "rubbing a ball of dough against a hot skillet".
It only took a few seconds to make one
Tak To
PD> Chow mein fried noodles are nothing like pretzels! (Except
PD> they're both crunchy.) (Well, maybe the La Choy canned ones
PD> are pretzel-like in being rods rather than ribbons.)
Ribbon like chow mein noodles? That must be a Chicago specialty.
The ones that I have seen are all rod like, and they invariably
come from a big box marked "Chow Mein Noodles" made in some
Chinatown factory. However, you are right in saying that their
texture is not like pretzels, but more like, well, fried noodles.
TT> Well, "egg roll" of that era was essentially what Peter has
TT> described: cylindrical and thick (about 1" to 1.5" in
TT> diameter) and the main filler was shredded cabbage. It was
TT> deep fried but the wrapper somehow turned soggy very quickly,
TT> probably due to the moisture from the cabbage. (I am
TT> somewhat biased on this matter, so it might sound worse than
TT> it was.)
PD> So why did you leave them sitting around long enough to get
PD> soggy? Is that also what you do with tacos?
As I have said, I am biased. :-) However, I don't like lettuce
in my tacos the same reason I don't like shredded cabbage in
American-Cantonese egg rolls. You see, shredded cabbage is not
a good ingredient in this regard because it gives off excessive
moisture. A key filler ingredient in any other varieties of fried
spring rolls is <fen3si1> (b5:粉絲), aka "foon see" etc, the thin
translucent noodle made from green beans. It has the ability to
absorb moisture from the other ingredients and keeps the shell
crunchy longer. American-Cantonese egg rolls don't use them, but
check for them in other varieties.
PD> Chicago has lots of acclaimed dim sum places (mostly for
PD> Sunday brunch) and I never encountered spring rolls among
PD> the offerings. (I guess there must be some in NY, too;
PD> any suggestions?)
I am surprised. In a place where the dimsum's are carted around,
they are usually grouped with other deep fried food such as
fried taro "cakes" (those with a fuzzy shell). In NYC almost
all dimsum places have them.
PD> But then Cantonese restaurants were pretty much driven out
PD> by the sophisticates, and didn't do dim sum anyway.
Yup, American-Cantonese restaurants are on their way out in
the larger cities. True Cantonese cuisine, however, is thriving
more than ever, albeit only in cities with a sufficiently large
HK/Cantonese emmigrant population: hence Vancouver, Toronto,
San Francisco, NYC. Chicago may not be the foremost place in this
regard. True Cantonese cuisine has always had a limited following
among the Americans, probably because of all those weird
ingredients.
Mike Wright
>
> Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~} wrote:
> > I'm not sure if all of you in this thread are confusing spring
> > rolls with egg rolls. In HK, these are completely different
> > things (except that both are edible... :P). Spring rolls
> > <chun1juan3> are rolls with a deep-fried, crisp outer layer
> > (made from flour), and various food warped inside. Egg need
> > not be an ingredient. Egg rolls <dan4juan3>, on the other
> > hand, are roasted sheets of eggs rolled into a cylindrical shape
> > (without the top and bottom discs). They're HOLLOW inside.
>
> <dan4juan3> that you mention is virtually unknown outside of
> the Chinese community.
I think I had some once at a Chinese restaurant in San Jose, but there were so
many dishes that they all kind of run together in my mind. My wife never cooks
anything quite like this, though she does make several egg dishes.
> Notes on the styles and names found in the US.
[more great stuff snipped]
> This is probably the style that is most widely available in
> the US nowadays. Even the (Chinese-run) pseudo-Japanese
> fast food joints in shopping malls have them, sometimes under
> the name "maki roll".
That's hilarious, since "maki" means "roll" (it's the same character as used in
Chinese for "Spring roll"). In Japan I ran into "haru maki", which is the native
Japanese pronunciation (kun-yomi) for Chinese <chun1 juan3>.
> -- True Cantonese spring rolls have always been available within
> Chinatown but they have become more common since only the mid-
> 80's. True Cantonese spring rolls have a *squashed* cylindrical
> shape, and are longer and wider than the Shanghai style.
> The wrapper is thicker, darker in color, and slightly crunchier
> as well. Unlike the above two, which are treated as appetizers
> in a Western style meal; true Cantonese spring rolls are served
> almost only as dimsum (<dian3xin1>) in a traditional Cantonese
> "morning tea" type meal. Probably due to confusion with the
> other two styles, I have rarely seen Americans interested in
> them. True Cantonese style spring rolls should be cut when
> served, and topped with Worcestershire sauce.
?!?!?! What did they use before the British showed up? At home we normally use a
mixture of soy sauce and hot sesame-seed oil.
Actually, these sound quite a bit like the ones my wife began making while we
were in North Carolina and couldn't easily find the proper wrappers. She began
using wheat-flour tortillas. Although the main ingredient by volume is shredded
cabbage, they never become soggy. This has become our favorite style. I imagine
that a similar need to improvise has contributed to the creation of the variety
of styles that Tak To has discussed so well.
I guess we should name our variation something like <tho'=p pia~> (<tho'> for
"tortilla"). But <tho'=p> sounds too much like <tho'+p>, meaning "dirt", so the
taboo kicks in and we have to rename them <thi~=p pia~+=s>, "heavenly rolls".
Now it's well past lunch time, and I'm starving...
ykyplus356
>
> Tak To wrote:
>
> > -- True Cantonese spring rolls have always been available within
> > Chinatown but they have become more common since only the mid-
> > 80's. True Cantonese spring rolls have a *squashed* cylindrical
> > shape, and are longer and wider than the Shanghai style.
> > The wrapper is thicker, darker in color, and slightly crunchier
> > as well. Unlike the above two, which are treated as appetizers
> > in a Western style meal; true Cantonese spring rolls are served
> > almost only as dimsum (<dian3xin1>) in a traditional Cantonese
> > "morning tea" type meal. Probably due to confusion with the
> > other two styles, I have rarely seen Americans interested in
> > them. True Cantonese style spring rolls should be cut when
> > served, and topped with Worcestershire sauce.
>
> and I never encountered spring rolls among the offerings. (I guess there
> must be some in NY, too; any suggestions?)
>
Try Three Happiness. The spring rolls I had there were just like what
Tak To described except the wrapper was thin.
H Andrew Chuang
Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote:
>spook wrote:
>
>Btw, in Beijing, the pancakes such as those served with Peking
>ducks are colloquially called <lao1bing3>. I am not sure if
>there is a character for the first syllable.
It's <lao4bing3>, (radical on the left is fire, on the right is <ge4>
as in "each").
BTW, this thread has degenerated into a discussion of food, yet no
sci.lang regulars have complained about it? I often see people who
cross-post being chided for discussions inappropriate for sci.lang.
It seems there is a double standard, doesn't it? ;-)
P.S. I skimmed through this thread quickly. I noticed Mr. Wright
mentioned <nun4bing3>. I think it should be <run4bing3> (<run4>
means moist, fresh).
Mike Wright
>
> In article <36E07FC1...@alum.mit.edu.->,
> Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.edu.-> wrote:
> >spook wrote:
> >
> >Btw, in Beijing, the pancakes such as those served with Peking
> >ducks are colloquially called <lao1bing3>. I am not sure if
> >there is a character for the first syllable.
>
> It's <lao4bing3>, (radical on the left is fire, on the right is <ge4>
> as in "each").
Yes. I actually found <lao4bing3> in Mathews.
> BTW, this thread has degenerated into a discussion of food, yet no
> sci.lang regulars have complained about it? I often see people who
> cross-post being chided for discussions inappropriate for sci.lang.
> It seems there is a double standard, doesn't it? ;-)
>
> P.S. I skimmed through this thread quickly. I noticed Mr. Wright
> mentioned <nun4bing3>. I think it should be <run4bing3> (<run4>
> means moist, fresh).
(The standard Mandarin pronunciation is <nen4>, not <nun4>, which I got from
Mathews, though I should have known better, since <nun> is not a possible
syllable in standard Mandarin.)
Who's this "Mr. Wright" character? Anyhow, all I have to go on is Douglas' 1873
dictionary, presumably compiled with lots of input from native speakers, and my
own instinct that "tender, delicate" sounds more appetizing than "moist, damp",
vs. the instincts some modern Chinese--and both <nen4> and <run4> are <lun7> in
Hokkien. I can't find either version in any of my other dictionaries.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> PD> Chow mein fried noodles are nothing like pretzels! (Except
> PD> they're both crunchy.) (Well, maybe the La Choy canned ones
> PD> are pretzel-like in being rods rather than ribbons.)
>
> Ribbon like chow mein noodles? That must be a Chicago specialty.
> The ones that I have seen are all rod like, and they invariably
> come from a big box marked "Chow Mein Noodles" made in some
> Chinatown factory. However, you are right in saying that their
> texture is not like pretzels, but more like, well, fried noodles.
I never ordered such a thing in 25 years in Chicago. Back in NY, the
local takeout gives you a waxed-paper bag of fried noodles (just like
the noodles of my youth) with every soup. They're still flat and narrow
-- the width of fettucine, say, but much thinnner -- and the crispiness
is interrupted by bubbles.
> PD> Chicago has lots of acclaimed dim sum places (mostly for
> PD> Sunday brunch) and I never encountered spring rolls among
> PD> the offerings. (I guess there must be some in NY, too;
> PD> any suggestions?)
>
> I am surprised. In a place where the dimsum's are carted around,
> they are usually grouped with other deep fried food such as
> fried taro "cakes" (those with a fuzzy shell). In NYC almost
> all dimsum places have them.
I liked taro balls! But most of the others didn't, so we didn't usually
get enough. So where should I go in NY?
> PD> But then Cantonese restaurants were pretty much driven out
> PD> by the sophisticates, and didn't do dim sum anyway.
>
> Yup, American-Cantonese restaurants are on their way out in
> the larger cities. True Cantonese cuisine, however, is thriving
> more than ever, albeit only in cities with a sufficiently large
> HK/Cantonese emmigrant population: hence Vancouver, Toronto,
> San Francisco, NYC. Chicago may not be the foremost place in this
> regard. True Cantonese cuisine has always had a limited following
> among the Americans, probably because of all those weird
> ingredients.
On the local shopping street here in Riverdale there are no less then
three restaurants with "Hunan" in the name in two blocks. (Their menus
are indistinguishable from those of any other neighborhood Chinese
restaurant.)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
There's a Three Happiness in Chicago, which was the most famous, but I
liked Hong Min (right on Cermak) better.
I suppose the name is common enough that there's one in NY too; do you
have an address?
Tak To
Le> spring rolls with egg rolls. In HK, [...] egg rolls
Le> <dan4juan3>, are roasted sheets of eggs rolled into a
Le> cylindrical shape (without the top and bottom discs).
Le> They're HOLLOW inside.
Mike Wright wrote:
MW> I think I had some once at a Chinese restaurant in San Jose,
MW> but there were so many dishes that they all kind of run
MW> together in my mind. My wife never cooks anything quite like
MW> this, though she does make several egg dishes.
In a restaurants? It is probably not the same thing. <dan4juan3>'s
are sweet and crumbly and are eaten as cookies. One can buy them
in tin cans from Chinese grocery stores. I have two empty cans
at home (my daughters devour them in a rather alarming rate),
one from HK, the other from Taiwan. Both are labelled as "cookie
rolls".
Tak To wrote:
TT> [...] the (Chinese-run) pseudo-Japanese fast food joints
TT> in shopping malls have [Shanghai style spring rolls],
TT> sometimes under the name "maki roll.
MW> That's hilarious, since "maki" means "roll" (it's the same
MW> character as used in Chinese for "Spring roll").
Yes, I had a good laugh when I first saw it. They also
have "soba noodles" with no trace of buckwheat.
TT> [...] True Cantonese style spring rolls should be cut when
TT> served, and topped with Worcestershire sauce.
MW> ?!?!?! What did they use before the British showed up? At
MW> home we normally use a mixture of soy sauce and hot
MW> sesame-seed oil.
Not sure, but the use of Worcestershire sauce dated back to
at least the 30's. Dimsum is by and large an urban tradition.
Btw, Worcestershire sauce is called /kip=r5 ts@p=r5/ in
Cantonese. The second character is <zhi1>, big5:<ツ> - "juice";
but there is no character for the first syllable. It looks
like Worcestershire sauce and ketchup have the same origin.
Tak To
> If I am not mistaken, Hopia came from the Mandarin word
> Hao-Ping, translated in Fujien dialect as Ho-pia.
Which "hao" character is this? Or do you mean <kao3>,
big5:<ŻN>, meaning "to bake"?
Btw, in Beijing, the pancakes such as those served with Peking
ducks are colloquially called <lao1bing3>. I am not sure if
there is a character for the first syllable.
Bill Vaughan
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Tak To wrote:
>> -- True Cantonese spring rolls have always been available within
>> Chinatown but they have become more common since only the mid-
>> 80's. True Cantonese spring rolls have a *squashed* cylindrical
>> shape, and are longer and wider than the Shanghai style.
>> The wrapper is thicker, darker in color, and slightly crunchier
>> as well. Unlike the above two, which are treated as appetizers
>> in a Western style meal; true Cantonese spring rolls are served
>> almost only as dimsum (<dian3xin1>) in a traditional Cantonese
>> "morning tea" type meal. Probably due to confusion with the
>> other two styles, I have rarely seen Americans interested in
>> them. True Cantonese style spring rolls should be cut when
>> served, and topped with Worcestershire sauce.
>
>Chicago has lots of acclaimed dim sum places (mostly for Sunday brunch)
>and I never encountered spring rolls among the offerings. (I guess there
>must be some in NY, too; any suggestions?)
>
Dunno about NYC, Peter, but if you are ever in the Bay area, you
should try my favorite dim sum place: Tin's Tea Room in Oakland
Chinatown. (Can't miss it, it's orange.) Very cantonese, kind of
down-scale, wonderful food, good prices, and yes, they have spring
rolls.
--Bill
Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}
ykyplus356> What is "actual Fujien dialect"?
Linguists have to divide Fujian dialects into different groups.
Minnan (i.e. northen Fujian) vs. Minbei (i.e. southern Fujian) is the
most common, but a bit old, classification. Some linguists add a
Mindong (i.e. eastern Fujian) class.
For Minnan, Amoyese is often considered the "standard", while for
Minbei, the Fuzhou dialect has a sort of standard status.
ykyplus356> There are so many
ykyplus356> dialects spoken in FuJian. Some said each village has
ykyplus356> its own dialect.
Theoretically, you can say that every speaker is speaking his own
accent/dialect.
ykyplus356> FuZhou and FuQing are only 40 miles
ykyplus356> apart and the languages spoken there are not quite the
ykyplus356> same.
For Cantonese, Guang3zhou1 and Fo2shan1 are about that distance apart
(I'm not sure on the exact distance), but these 2 dialects are
different enough for the native speakers to tell which is which. Hong
Kong is around 180 km from Guang3zhou1, but these two dialects are
almost identical. Almost all native speakers cannot confidently
distinguishing the HK accent from the GZ one.
Distance is not a major factor here.
Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}
Patrick> Actually some Fukien dialects *do* have /f/ [f]. It's
Patrick> only the dialects which self designate themselves as
Patrick> Hokkian/Holo that don't.. that is, the dialects we
Patrick> classify as Minnan. Mindong (formerly Minbei) dialects
Patrick> like Fuzhou, have [f].
I have a friend who is a native speaker of the Zhang1zhou1 (Minnan)
dialect. He told me that he has the /f/ sound in this dialect. Could
anyone please tell me whether his is correct? Or is he mistaking
/hu-/ as /f/?
Patrick> The choice of using Fukien is
Patrick> analogous to Peking... it's based on an earlier version
Patrick> of Mandarin or Cantonese, rather than local
Patrick> pronunciation.
"Peking" may be based on Southern Mandarin dialects, where the /ki-/
(Middle Chinese) --> /ji/ (modern Nothern Mandarin) shifted hadn't
taken place.
Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}
Tak> Btw, Worcestershire sauce is called /kip=r5 ts@p=r5/ in
Tak> Cantonese. The second character is <zhi1>, big5:<�(e> -
Tak> "juice"; but there is no character for the first syllable.
In HK, we write "�&H3+" (as one character) as the character for the
first syllable of this term.
Tak> It looks like Worcestershire sauce and ketchup have the same
Tak> origin.
Really?
BTW, anyone knows why ketchup is "ketchup"? I was told that this was
from Cantonese ("ketchup" = Cantonese /k'E=s35 ts@p=r5/), but these
information sources are not very reliable. Who invented ketchup?
Tak To
Mike Wright wrote:
MW> Ah. I know what that is. I was thinking of something more
MW> like a rolled omlette. I think Sau Dan's "roasted" must have
MW> thrown me off. The one's you're talking about are baked,
MW> aren't they?
They are cooked more or less like the way pancakes are cooked.
Ladle some mixture on a hot flat surface, cook a bit, roll/fold
while soft and warm, then cool off. When I was a kid, I used to
watch a guy making it at a street side stall. He used a small
electric hot plate that did not look very hot. Fortune cookies
are made that way as well. In the factory everything is probably
automated.
Re Worcestershire sauce:
MW> It appears that both Cantonese /kip=r5 ts@p=r5/ and modern
MW> Hokkien (at least in Singapore) /kiat=r32-5 chiap=r32/ may
MW> both be re-interpretations of the original Hokkien /ke+p24-33
MW> chiap32=r/ via Malay and English, accidentally getting the
MW> second character right, but having lost track of the
MW> original first character (which I believe is the fish radical
MW> on the left, and one earth radical above another on the
MW> right, and which I have not been able to find in the Big5
MW> character set on my Mac--is it <hai1>?).
You mean big5:<ĀD>? It is pronuonced as <gui1> in Mandarin
and means salmon. The Japanese uses the same kanji for salmon
as well (onyomi = kai, kei; kunyomi = sake). I doubt if
salmon is native to Fujian, or even China. This translation
could be first used by the Japanese.
ykyplus356
>
> There's a Three Happiness in Chicago, which was the most famous, but I
> liked Hong Min (right on Cermak) better.
>
That's the one I'm talking about, right across the parking lot. What do
you mean "was the most famous"? What *is* the most famous now? I haven't
been there for ten years.
H Andrew Chuang
>H Andrew Chuang wrote:
>>
>> P.S. I skimmed through this thread quickly. I noticed Mr. Wright
>> mentioned <nun4bing3>. I think it should be <run4bing3> (<run4>
>> means moist, fresh).
>
>(The standard Mandarin pronunciation is <nen4>, not <nun4>, which I got from
>Mathews, though I should have known better, since <nun> is not a possible
>syllable in standard Mandarin.)
>
>Who's this "Mr. Wright" character?
Sorry, I can't help it. I grew up in a culture in which it is considered
inpolite to address a non-acquaintant by his or her given name. ;-)
>Anyhow, all I have to go on is Douglas' 1873
>dictionary, presumably compiled with lots of input from native speakers, and my
>own instinct that "tender, delicate" sounds more appetizing than "moist, damp",
>vs. the instincts some modern Chinese--and both <nen4> and <run4> are <lun7> in
>Hokkien. I can't find either version in any of my other dictionaries.
>
Well, in this case, a cook book is probably a better source than a
dictionary. ;-) I have a bi-lingual cook book in which <run4bing3> is
translated as Taiwanese egg rolls. The first time I had <run4bing3>, I
was told it's <fu2zhou1 chun1juan3>.
Ben Zimmer
>
>
> Tak> Btw, Worcestershire sauce is called /kip=r5 ts@p=r5/ in
> Tak> "juice"; but there is no character for the first syllable.
>
> first syllable of this term.
>
> Tak> It looks like Worcestershire sauce and ketchup have the same
> Tak> origin.
>
> Really?
>
> BTW, anyone knows why ketchup is "ketchup"? I was told that this was
> from Cantonese ("ketchup" = Cantonese /k'E=s35 ts@p=r5/), but these
> information sources are not very reliable. Who invented ketchup?
Depends what you call "ketchup." I think the derivation goes like this:
English _ketchup_ (that tomatoey stuff) <
Malay _kecap_ (soy sauce) <
Amoy _kôechiap_/_kê-tsiap_ {brine of pickled fish or shell-fish)
--Ben
Mike Wright
>
> Re <duan4juan3>:
>
> Mike Wright wrote:
> MW> Ah. I know what that is. I was thinking of something more
> MW> like a rolled omlette. I think Sau Dan's "roasted" must have
> MW> thrown me off. The one's you're talking about are baked,
> MW> aren't they?
>
> They are cooked more or less like the way pancakes are cooked.
> Ladle some mixture on a hot flat surface, cook a bit, roll/fold
> while soft and warm, then cool off. When I was a kid, I used to
> watch a guy making it at a street side stall. He used a small
> electric hot plate that did not look very hot. Fortune cookies
> are made that way as well. In the factory everything is probably
> automated.
That sounds like pizzelli (Italian, I assume). There are special irons for them,
sort of like little hand-held waffle irons, that have little vine or floral
patterns on them. I can see the resemblance. I've cooked pizzelli on a tortilla
iron. I found a recipe at http://www.cimorelli.com/pie/mangia/PIZZELLI.HTM .
> Re Worcestershire sauce:
>
> MW> It appears that both Cantonese /kip=r5 ts@p=r5/ and modern
> MW> Hokkien (at least in Singapore) /kiat=r32-5 chiap=r32/ may
> MW> both be re-interpretations of the original Hokkien /ke+p24-33
> MW> chiap32=r/ via Malay and English, accidentally getting the
> MW> second character right, but having lost track of the
> MW> original first character (which I believe is the fish radical
> MW> on the left, and one earth radical above another on the
> MW> right, and which I have not been able to find in the Big5
> MW> character set on my Mac--is it <hai1>?).
>
> You mean big5:<嘬>? It is pronuonced as <gui1> in Mandarin
> and means salmon. The Japanese uses the same kanji for salmon
> as well (onyomi = kai, kei; kunyomi = sake). I doubt if
> salmon is native to Fujian, or even China. This translation
> could be first used by the Japanese.
That's the one. The Japanese often use pre-existing characters with modified
meanings. This seems to happen a lot with ocean life.
(That character doesn't look right to me. I see <kou3> ("mouth") on the left and
<zui4> ("most"). I think something funny's going on.)
Mike Wright
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > There's a Three Happiness in Chicago, which was the most famous, but I
> > liked Hong Min (right on Cermak) better.
> >
>
> That's the one I'm talking about, right across the parking lot. What do
> you mean "was the most famous"? What *is* the most famous now? I haven't
> been there for ten years.
I haven't been there in two years.
> > I suppose the name is common enough that there's one in NY too; do you
> > have an address?
Still waiting for suggestions!
D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff
Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~} <sd...@faith.csis.hku.hk> wrote:
>>>>>> "ykyplus356" == ykyplus356 <ykypl...@emn.com> writes:
>
> ykyplus356> What is "actual Fujien dialect"?
>
>Linguists have to divide Fujian dialects into different groups.
>Minnan (i.e. northen Fujian) vs. Minbei (i.e. southern Fujian) is the
>most common, but a bit old, classification.
I'm afraid you've inadvertently switched these two, A-Dan!
[for the benefit of non-Chinese-speakers]
"Min" is an alternate name for "Fujian". "Minbei" (cf. Beijing "Northern
Capitol") is the northern half of Fujian Province and "Minnan" (cf. Nan-
jing) is the southern half.
>Some linguists add a
>Mindong (i.e. eastern Fujian) class.
dong "east"
>For Minnan, Amoyese is often considered the "standard", while for
>Minbei, the Fuzhou dialect has a sort of standard status.
>
> ykyplus356> There are so many
> ykyplus356> dialects spoken in FuJian. Some said each village has
> ykyplus356> its own dialect.
>
>Theoretically, you can say that every speaker is speaking his own
>accent/dialect.
The standard term in linguistics for an individual's personal dialect is
"idiolect".
[snip]
Lee Sau Dan ~{@nJX6X~}
>> Linguists have to divide Fujian dialects into different
>> groups. Minnan (i.e. northen Fujian) vs. Minbei
>> (i.e. southern Fujian) is the most common, but a bit old,
>> classification.
D> I'm afraid you've inadvertently switched these two, A-Dan!
Oops! Typo... :P
dava...@my-dejanews.com
Who cares where it originated. It's our food. But you seem to forget that
Filipinos didn't just blossom in those islands. We descended from the
Malays, Indonesians, and Spaniards, and some Chinese, but maybe late
immigrants. That's why many Filipinos have round eyes instead of that Chinese
look. But Lumpia is a Filipino food and we don't care if the damn Dutch
pronounces it the same way. Besides, I think the Americans already gave the
credit to the Chinese because they cook it all the time along with sesame
chicken and some fried rice. I feel kind of hungry.
In article <7bdmai$24q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hiya,
>
> I was looking through a Dutch phrasebook in the bookstore a couple of days
> ago, and I found something that surprised me.
>
> There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under it there
> was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and what it was
> (Spring Roll).
>
> Now this surprised me since I (and many Filipinos) thought the Filipinos gave
> it the name and that I found it in a Dutch phrase book! (I knew that they
> somehow came from China).
>
> The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia, since The Netherlands
> and Indonesia had some things related to each other. But the thing is I have
> never heard of Lumpia related to Indonesia. Neither does the word look
> "Chinese" to me.
>
> So does anyone know where the name "Lumpia" came from? Could the
Filipinos
> have invented it and the Indonesians borrowed it (or vice versa) ? Or maybe
> it's disguised as Chinese "loom pi ya" (I don't speak Chinese, btw).... Or
> could it be Spanish? Though I couldn't find it in my Spanish dictionary...
>
> Any info regarding this would satsify my curiosity... and be appreciated ;)
>
> Thanks...!
>
> --Chris
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Mabuhay-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Moderator and Designer of Tele-Arena 97 on the Game-Master.
> Modérateur et Dessinateur de Tele-Arena 97 sur le Maître de Jeu.
> Visit us at / Rendez-nous visite à http://www.game-master.com
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
dava...@my-dejanews.com
the Indonesians, Malays, and the evil Spaniards, and some Chinese,
Vietnamese, and Japanese, but the majority of us descended from Malaysians,
Indonesians, and Spaniards. The Chinese introduced the roll to us and the
Cebuanos named it Lumpia. Hehehehe. You want some Turon and Durian too?
In article <36DCA34D...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
"Kalani M." <motu...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
> *LMAO*
>
> George Torralba wrote:
>
> > Sheyt, here's the answer. Cebuanos coined that word. End of
> > disccusion, ahahahaha.
> >
> > George
> >
> > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:50:46 GMT, de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward
> > Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
> >
> > >In article <7bfgvc$ll2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> > >Chris S. <van...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > >>In article <F7x5n...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> > >> de...@midway.uchicago.edu (D. Edward Gund v. Brighoff) wrote:
> > >>> In article <36DA8903...@earthlink.NOSPAMnet>,
> > >>
> > >>> My Indonesian dictionary (Echols & Shadily) marks it as "Chinese". In
> > >>> Indonesian, that usually means "Hokkien" and I don't know those
dialects.
> > >>> However, speakers of them did settle the Philippines as well, so I think
> > >>> you have your common source. Now all we need is for a helpful Hokchiu
or
> > >>> Holo or Teochiu speaker to tell us what she calls "egg rolls" when she's
> > >>> at home.
> > >>
> > >>Hmm.... Interesting may have come from Hokkien.... I knew that Chinese
settled
> > >>in the Philippines but I wasn't sure what language/dialect they spoke..
Anyway
> > >>here is what I found:
> > >>
> > >>From Carl Rubino's Book, "Ilocano Phrasebook and Dictionary":
> > >>
> > >>"...All the languages of the archipelago are Western Austronesian of the
> > >>Philippine type except the languages left behind by colonization: English,
> > >>Spanish, and the language of a powerful merchant class, Hokkien Chinese.
..."
> > >>
> > >>Did the Hokkien Chinese happen to live in Indonesia too? Or did the
Filipinos
> > >>introduce lumpia to Indonesia?
> > >
> > >The bulk of Indonesian Chinese are of Hokkien ancestry (I think mainly
> > >Hoklo, but I'm not sure), although Hakka, Teochiu, and other groups are
> > >represented. The majority of Filipino Chinese are Hoklo (particularly
> > >Quanzhouese).
dava...@my-dejanews.com
You like chicken adobo? Pork is better. I'm not the best fans of tagalogs,
but I gotta say those guys can cook. Will someone prepare palabok for me? A
million ok? Hehehe. Other favorites are pansit, lechon kawali, barbeque
Filipino style, krispy pata, halu halu, turon, suman, kalamay, lechon,
dinugu-an, sinugbang bangus, kinilaw(fish), bulad, tangkong, frogs, birds,
and dogs. Just kidding, but I've tasted a frog and a dog. Just a bite. Frog
tasted like chicken and dog, I don't remember and I don't want to remember.
In article <7bl67e$lgp$1...@brokaw.wa.com>,
cro...@kuentos.guam.net (Robato Yao) wrote:
> In <36DB5DC6...@bellsouth.net>, Michele France <3br...@bellsouth.net>
writes:
> >
> >--------------709B0380D0E65F24020481B1
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >
> >well.. i am not qualified to report on the origin of lumpia. but it is one
of
> >my very favorite dishes... and will always be of philippine origin to me, in
my
>
> I always feel that lumpia is a very Chinese thing. To eat lumpia, you
> cannot eat it *alone*. The amount of food required to prepare---the
> thin white wrappers, the huge leaves of lettuce, the mixed chow
> consisting of thinly sliced tohu+carrot+veggies+chicken+pork, requires
> a few large bowls, and the preparation of the ingredients is a team
> effort (except for the wrapper, which you buy at the store.)
>
> To eat lumpia is a family event plus cousins and friends
>
> Of course it leaves a mess. Eating it down to one third or one fourth,
> it always somehow disintegrates in my hands, leaving a mess, and from
> then on, I have to scoop the contents with a spoon.
>
> It's not hard to prepare this, so long as you have the source for the
> thin white wrappers.
>
> >heart.. (my first favorite dish is chicken adobo... but i guess that's not
> >counting the the bar-b-q monkey we used to eat.. marinated in soy, 7up,
water,
>
> I guess it's not as weird as the fruit bat delicacy in Guam.
>
> Rgds,
>
> Chris
>
> >onion and garlic ((unfortunately THAT'S not a delicacy for the taking in the
> >US)) i've tried it w/chicken, it's not quite the same).... basically, i have
no
> >help to offer. Just thought i'd offer my opinion of the dish!!
> >
> >hch wrote:
> >
> >> Misschien kun le hier iets vinden.
> >>
> >>
http://www.goto.com/d/search/p/befree/?Promo=befree00003869940081559462&Keyw
> >> ords=lumpia
> >>
> >> hch
> >>
> >> Chris S. wrote in message <7bdmai$24q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >> >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> >> >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >
> >
> >
> >--------------709B0380D0E65F24020481B1
> >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> ><HTML>
> >well.. i am not qualified to report on the origin of lumpia. but
> >it is one of my very favorite dishes... and will always be of philippine
> >origin to me, in my heart.. (my first favorite dish is chicken adobo...
> >but i guess that's not counting the the bar-b-q monkey we used to eat..
> >marinated in soy, 7up, water, onion and garlic ((unfortunately THAT'S not
> >a delicacy for the taking in the US)) i've tried it w/chicken, it's not
> >quite the same).... basically, i have no help to offer. Just thought
> >i'd offer my opinion of the dish!!
> >
> ><P>hch wrote:
> ><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Misschien kun le hier iets vinden.
> >
> ><P><A
HREF="http://www.goto.com/d/search/p/befree/?Promo=befree00003869940081559462&Ke
yw">http://www.goto.com/d/search/p/befree/?Promo=befree00003869940081559462&
Keyw</A>
> ><BR>ords=lumpia
> >
> ><P>hch
> >
> ><P>Chris S. wrote in message <7bdmai$24q$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>Hiya,
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>I was looking through a Dutch phrasebook in the bookstore a couple
> >of days
> ><BR>>ago, and I found something that surprised me.
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>There was an entry for "Snacks" in the "Eating Out" section... Under
> >it
> ><BR>there
> ><BR>>was the word "Loempia" and how to pronounce it (LOOM-pee-yaa) and
> >what it
> ><BR>was
> ><BR>>(Spring Roll).
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>Now this surprised me since I (and many Filipinos) thought the Filipinos
> ><BR>gave
> ><BR>>it the name and that I found it in a Dutch phrase book! (I knew that
> >they
> ><BR>>somehow came from China).
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>The logical explanation is that it came from Indonesia, since The
> ><BR>Netherlands
> ><BR>>and Indonesia had some things related to each other. But the
> >thing is I
> ><BR>have
> ><BR>>never heard of Lumpia related to Indonesia. Neither does the
> >word look
> ><BR>>"Chinese" to me.
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>So does anyone know where the name "Lumpia" came from? Could the
Filipinos
> ><BR>>have invented it and the Indonesians borrowed it (or vice versa) ?
> >Or
> ><BR>maybe
> ><BR>>it's disguised as Chinese "loom pi ya" (I don't speak Chinese, btw)....
> >Or
> ><BR>>could it be Spanish? Though I couldn't find it in my Spanish
> >dictionary...
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>Any info regarding this would satsify my curiosity... and be appreciated
> >;)
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>Thanks...!
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>--Chris
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Mabuhay-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> ><BR>>Moderator and Designer of Tele-Arena 97 on the Game-Master.
> ><BR>>Modérateur et Dessinateur de Tele-Arena 97 sur le Maître
> >de Jeu.
> ><BR>>Visit us at / Rendez-nous visite à <A
HREF="http://www.game-master.com">http://www.game-master.com</A>
> ><BR>>
> ><BR>>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> ><BR>><A
HREF="http://www.dejanews.com/">http://www.dejanews.com/</A> &n
bsp;
> >Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own</BLOCKQUOTE>
> > </HTML>
> >
> >--------------709B0380D0E65F24020481B1--
> >
>
> (counting down from top 50 oxymorons...)
> 10. Tight slacks
> 9. Definite maybe
> 8. Pretty ugly
> 7. Twelve-ounce pound cake
> 6. Diet ice cream
> 5. Rap music
> 4. Working vacation
> 3. Exact estimate
> 2. Religious tolerance
> And the NUMBER ONE top oxy-MORON
> 1. Microsoft Works
> ---From the Top 50 Oxymorons (thanks to Richard Kennedy)
MEHDULLA OBLONGATA
>
> RESPONSE:
>
> Who cares where it originated. It's our food. But you seem to forget that
> Filipinos didn't just blossom in those islands. We descended from the
> Malays, Indonesians, and Spaniards, and some Chinese, but maybe late
> immigrants. That's why many Filipinos have round eyes instead of that Chinese
> look. But Lumpia is a Filipino food and we don't care if the damn Dutch
> pronounces it the same way. Besides, I think the Americans already gave the
> credit to the Chinese because they cook it all the time along with sesame
> chicken and some fried rice. I feel kind of hungry.
>
that, this series of articles you are refering to
has nothing to do with your pride. In fact I kinda
like the responses and am surprised to hear it's
also called lumpia in Indonesia.
Now, does it matter? The words is Filipino now,
but not originally. Big deal! But isn't it
interesting?
fpj
party. it really doesn't matter where lumpia came from (ineteresting
etymology though). our history is like the borg - we assimilate the best. i
don't think the chinese's egg roll was exactly the same as our lumpia. just
like a true pinoy, we made it better, and adapted the food to our taste. my
american friends credit us for the food, anyway.
MEHDULLA OBLONGATA wrote in message <36FBB1C0...@linkonline.net>...
Taal
<dava...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:7dfnvp$drj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> No. I think Indonesia existed first before the Filipinos. We descended
from
> the Indonesians, Malays, and the evil Spaniards, and some Chinese,
> Vietnamese, and Japanese, but the majority of us descended from
Malaysians,
> Indonesians, and Spaniards. The Chinese introduced the roll to us and the
> Cebuanos named it Lumpia. Hehehehe. You want some Turon and Durian too?
>
If you read the July 1991 issue of _Scientific American_, there's an
interesting article entitled "The Austronesian Dispersal and the Origin of
Languages." It describes that the home of the Malayo-Polynesians (the
Austronesians) was the South-East Asian mainland. They hopped onto Taiwan
in 4000 B.C., then to the Philippines in 3000 B.C., then to Indonesia in
2500 B.C., then to Madagascar and western Polynesia in 1200 B.C., then to
central Polynesia in 200 B.C., then to eastern Polynesia in 300-400 A.D.,
and then finally to New Zealand in 800 A.D. So the Austronesians colonized
the Philippines earlier than Indonesia.
Taal
MEHDULLA OBLONGATA
>
> lumpia - my caucasian friends keep bugging to bring everytime we have a
> party. it really doesn't matter where lumpia came from (ineteresting
> etymology though). our history is like the borg - we assimilate the best. i
> don't think the chinese's egg roll was exactly the same as our lumpia. just
> like a true pinoy, we made it better, and adapted the food to our taste. my
> american friends credit us for the food, anyway.
>
It is Filipinized, try eating the Chinese version
and you'll see the difference. Just like 'luglug'
and other pancit variants. This is interesting,
just like the origin of the word<BTW, linguists
did their professional bit on the word if anyone
followed that thread...it is great! I love it!
Norman G. Owen
>
> <dava...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
> news:7dfnvp$drj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com...
> > No. I think Indonesia existed first before the Filipinos. We descended
> from
> > the Indonesians, Malays, and the evil Spaniards, and some Chinese,
> > Vietnamese, and Japanese, but the majority of us descended from
> Malaysians,
> > Indonesians, and Spaniards.
The view that most Filipinos were descended from "Indonesian" and
"Malay" (sometimes "Proto-Malay" and "Deutero-Malay") immigrants
originated with the American anthropologist H. Otley Beyer in the early
part of this century. It has been largely discarded by scholars as
lacking in solid evidence (Beyer made some rather large assumptions
about racial "types" and the evolution of cultures), but it persisted
long afterwards in textbooks and therefore (alas) in the memory of
Filipinos who were exposed to these books ...
The Chinese introduced the roll to us and the
> > Cebuanos named it Lumpia. Hehehehe. You want some Turon and Durian too?
>
> If you read the July 1991 issue of _Scientific American_, there's an
> interesting article entitled "The Austronesian Dispersal and the Origin of
> Languages." It describes that the home of the Malayo-Polynesians (the
> Austronesians) was the South-East Asian mainland. They hopped onto Taiwan
> in 4000 B.C., then to the Philippines in 3000 B.C., then to Indonesia in
> 2500 B.C., then to Madagascar and western Polynesia in 1200 B.C., then to
> central Polynesia in 200 B.C., then to eastern Polynesia in 300-400 A.D.,
> and then finally to New Zealand in 800 A.D. So the Austronesians colonized
> the Philippines earlier than Indonesia.
>
> Taal
One word of warning. This is indeed a commonly accepted view of
Austronesian dispersal, but it is not the only one, even among serious
scholars. Some suggest that the evidence is that Austronesians first
emerged not on the mainland (South China or northern Indochina?), but in
the island world (Taiwan/Philippines/Eastern Indonesia?).
Fascinating topic, on which I do not expect to hear the "final" word in
my lifetime. (I'm professionally a historian, which means I deal with
what happened after written records appear; I read "pre-history," but
don't practice it myself.) It's fun, and perhaps useful, to know the
inter-relationships among the peoples of this part of the world (I'm
writing from Hong Kong), but if anyone ever thinks he or she has got THE
definitive story of exactly how and when they were first connected, it's
probably over-optimistic.
Norman Owen
ngo...@hku.hk