This Nepali's views on India and China
ashu...@post.harvard.edu
I agree with your formulation that an equation that goes like:
Nepali nationalism equals anti-India sentiments equals somewhat
positive impressions of China is what that's been pretty
much in the "thopa thopa ragat" of every chest-thumping Nepali
since the heyday of the Panchayat.
My view, like yours, is staightforward:
Though I think a number of Indian government's policies towards Nepal
are unfair, bully-like and therefore can probably be challenged to
victory through sophisticated international legal instruments, the
Indian people -- from Kailash to Kanya Kumari -- nontheless
comprise a giant market for various Nepal-made quality goods and
services.
True, that there are markets in India for Nepal-made quality products
is easier said than done, but the sheer POTENTIAL that such markets
exist for us Nepalis should be very exciting. That is why, one
challenge before all market-friendly Nepali policy makers and diplomats
should be: how to make it easier for our people to do business in and
with India as much as they want.
I know that there are Nepalis who hate all things Indian due to some
visceral/limbic/physiological hatred or dislike that defies reason
and sensibility. Well, that's their choice, and, in a democracy liuke
ours, they are free to choose how they want to hate India as Nepalis.
But, in all fairness, there are also Nepalis, myself
included, who believe in preparing very well for and holding
tough negotiations, achored by internationally accepted
legal/political/regional instruments, with India, and
persuasively and diplomatically arguing for and obtaining
Nepal-friendly fair agreements on any given issue. Again,
I agree that saying this is easier said then done.
Likewise, a billion plus people live in China. And China's been
generally friendly to us. Now, there has to be a way for us to take
fair advantage of both (a)China's goodwill toward Nepal and (b) China's
huge markets for Nepalis to sell their goods and services there.
To twist some American Senator's words, "A billion people here,
and a billion people there, and you're soon talking about real
markets [that you take advantage of]"
oohi
ashu
In article ashu...@post.harvard.edu wrote:
> RKhanal wrote:
>
> > > To counter such threat economical growth is highly essential.
Ahsu-
What I have found common among some educated Nepalis is that
making comments against India is a National Pride, and favouring China
is another bonus pride. What they have missed is Nepal
should explore ways to utlize the big and densly populated
neighbor, by saying this, I am not saying we should allow
Indian Army or security force in Nepal. Only India can be
a easily accessible market to Nepal, not the China. Our
Relation with China is more like DEKHAUNE DAAT, as much as
we can negotiate (without compromising with Soverginity
of the country) and creating a friendly relation with India,
we will have better economy, better job opportunity, and
better life, but, by being Pro Chinese and kicking out
Indians will not benefit us nothing worth as we have seen
in Panchayat-Kal. Lets not forget, total benefit
we have until now from open border/free access to a
Nepali who enters India carrying POKA, not even a bag,
do not read and write, and gets job, at least a trust
is there to the people of that level. In the name of
nationalism, the so called intellectuals are supporting
Maobadi, while they forget, the total Nepalis lost lives
in Maobadi war is probably more than Nepalis abducted
by Police or died in Polic custody for last 50 years.
Maobadis are doing nothing better to the country,
neither to people of the class they have final (so
called )destnations. Stop supporting killer Maobadis,
if you have sympathy over the peoples dying for nothing,
imagine how they are killed. Last week, I saw
documentary on Mozambique, a whole village has more than
30% peoples whose both hand were amputed, and a boy
who chopped hundred of peoples hand, and finally,
his hand was also chopped when the ribels (so called)
broke into pieces, and now regrets for the sitaution.
In Nepal, the situation is simialar. The First step
towards solution to Maobadi problem is to STOP MORAL
or INFORMAL or OPEN SUPPORT by intellectual peoples
Bhesh Bhandari, and then, it should begin at public level.
As long as the people of your intellectual capacity,
influence, horizon continue to support, the Maobadis
will continue to operate, chop hands, ear, nose,
neck and what not. The Mozambique's one Police officer
whose both hands were also chopped, showed the wooden
block and explained the pose, how they chopped his
hands. He saw his both hands after chopping jumping,
flying, the blood, he was screaming, looking at his
blood draining out of body, nad hand slowly taking
rest. I can imagine, the situation, in Maobadi affected
areas, after hearing how Maobadis are trimming hands,
legs, nose, ear, neck chopping one by one and lasting
as long as they could, and they are doing all these
things in front of family, kids, and old peoples. Don't
we feel ashamed? Yes, I also don't support the way
police gets mad and take revenge on neighboring home.
Its better to stop support on both sides, rather,
criticize both sides. As long as we don't do it,
its not going to be solved. As Ashu said, this
kind of movement/support have triggered the Brain Drain
problem, "Pharka= U-turn" programs will not have any impact. These
days, looking at the support from Nepalis
so called intellectuals living a good life in
Australia, USA, EU, Japan, blindly, raises a
question on me, should I help the "U-TURN" programs,
or "Promote Left or Right turns whenever you confront
dead end on your (in extreme situation)".
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Before you buy.
nepali...@my-deja.com
ashu...@post.harvard.edu wrote:
> Dear GP-ji,
>
> I agree with your formulation that an equation that goes like:
>
> Nepali nationalism equals anti-India sentiments equals somewhat
> positive impressions of China is what that's been pretty
> much in the "thopa thopa ragat" of every chest-thumping Nepali
> since the heyday of the Panchayat.
Greetings,
I tend to disagree with this. Nepali nationalism is not based on NATURAL
anti-india or pro-china sentiments. India has done many things which
makes any Nepali think that we would be so much better off if there was
no India-- the policies of the Indian government alone is responsible for
this and not the 30 years of Panchayat or anything else.
For me, Nepali nationalism is based in creating an uniform language,
culture through "eutai-bhasa -eutai-bhesh" during the panchayat era. If
benedict Anderson is to be believed, and I don't see any reasaons for not
believing him, nations during their nation-building process, tend to make
their people believe that they are different, and which is very natural.
this lays the foundation of Nationalism. The leaders have to run their
imaginations pretty wild to create differences to make their people
really believe that they are the most priviliged ones to be living in
that nation. For example, in Turkey- They created a whole new script just
to differentiate themself from the other Arabic script using countries in
the neighborhood. In Nepal --Nepali was pushed as a National language-
Everyone who spoke Nepali was a Nepali. This is the basis of Nepali
Nationalism.
>
> My view, like yours, is staightforward:
My view is a little crroked though! I hope it still makes me eligible to
put forth my views.
> Though I think a number of Indian government's policies towards Nepal
> are unfair, bully-like and therefore can probably be challenged to
> victory through sophisticated international legal instruments, the
> Indian people -- from Kailash to Kanya Kumari -- nontheless
> comprise a giant market for various Nepal-made quality goods and
> services.
Exactly-- This is what creates an anti-Indian sentiment among "educated "
youths in Nepal. As I wrote above, People believe that we would be 10000
toime better off, if we were not sorrounded by India.
> True, that there are markets in India for Nepal-made quality products
> is easier said than done, but the sheer POTENTIAL that such markets
> exist for us Nepalis should be very exciting. That is why, one
> challenge before all market-friendly Nepali policy makers and diplomats
> should be: how to make it easier for our people to do business in and
> with India as much as they want.
This is funny. Nepal's economy is not an EXPORT ORIENTED one. What is
there to export? Indians being Indians, would not buy our handicrafts-
galicha, thangka or wai wai chow chow. Unless you are talking about
exp[orting PEOPLE and Indians consuming them, I have nothhing to say.
> I know that there are Nepalis who hate all things Indian due to some
> visceral/limbic/physiological hatred or dislike that defies reason
> and sensibility. Well, that's their choice, and, in a democracy liuke
> ours, they are free to choose how they want to hate India as Nepalis.
Its not because of any of those reasons. Its becauase of how the Indian
government treats Nepal and the actions of INDIANS in Nepal. So, we have
a legitimate reason to dislike Indians and I don't blame anyone who tends
to dislike INDIANS.
> But, in all fairness, there are also Nepalis, myself
> included, who believe in preparing very well for and holding
> tough negotiations, achored by internationally accepted
> legal/political/regional instruments, with India, and
> persuasively and diplomatically arguing for and obtaining
> Nepal-friendly fair agreements on any given issue. Again,
> I agree that saying this is easier said then done.
Exactly this is easier said than done--Negotiations won't work because as
long as India continues to treat Nepal as its STATE, nothing will work.
> Likewise, a billion plus people live in China. And China's been
> generally friendly to us. Now, there has to be a way for us to take
> fair advantage of both (a)China's goodwill toward Nepal and (b) China's
> huge markets for Nepalis to sell their goods and services there.
Exactly- and this has to be done soon so that we can take advantage of
China's growing economy. Our leaders should refrain themselves from
making stupid remarks-- Nepal has to show its determination that it
believes in "Zhi You Yi Ge Zhong Guo"- ONLY ONE CHINA policy and try to
stop anti Chinese-FREE-TIBET activities in Nepal.
Another thing that can be done to start a new era of friendship between
the Chinese people and the Nepalis- is to waive the Visa fee for any
Chinese who wishes to come to Nepal.
And, there are many other things that will if implkemented will help
Nepal in the future.
Regards,
NepaliKancha
Bhesh Bhandari
sometime to understand that National pride comes from being Nepali not being
pro or anti-Indian. They have misunderstood that pro-nepalese dpoes not mean
anti-Indian! This comes in the mind when someone thinks that Nepal is a part
of India.
There are other reasons being anti-India. It should also be understood that
for Nepal's identity and existence India is the only threat and we have been
facing this threat every moment. However, it does not mean that we should
fight against India. But we should defend ourselves. This does not mean
physical fight. Physical question comes only when there will be a physical
attack to nepal. This will start happening when India deploys security
personnel in Nepalese airport. I suppose in many Neplaese mind it will be
unbearble and they may raise arms against it. I won't be surprised when it
happens. "Maobadis" will be useful that moment. If not Maobadis there will be
other armed group automatically formed to protect Nepal from Indian takeover.
One should understand that the economy and soveriegnty are two different
things. Asu and GP are taking these two together. It just comes from their
family or political background (probably from their childhood). They have not
been able to expand their analysis to the level of root cause. However, I
agree with Ashu that China is just psedo-neighbour. We do not have to
anything with that country, though indirectly it might be protecting us from
Indian hegemonism. But I should say that China won't do any thing to us even
if India poses a threat to our sovereignty. We should never believe China and
India both. I have discussions with many Chinese people. They do not have any
better attitude.
Ashu and GP needs to refine their thinking that pro-Nepal does not mean
anti-India or anti-China. These two strings should not come with pro-Nepal.
These two strings were created when Congress and Communist parties were
formed before the Panchayat kal. But one should also keep in mind that
Nepal's existence will come from how Nepalese defend their culture
(multiculture) against india. China is a dead tiger for Nepal. Neither it
will help to defend Nepal in the difficult moment nor it is a threat to
Nepal.
When Nepali was introduced in the School during Panchayat kal, it does not
mean that it was anti-indian action unless someone is brain drained who has
an impression that every step to promote Nepali language and culture is an
anti Indian activity. When Mahendra built Araniko highway, many though it was
an anti-Indian. There is no one born like Mahendra. We should admire him for
protecting Nepal from India.
My good wishes to all who says Jai-Nepal. Remember it does not mean
anti-India!
nepali...@my-deja.com
Excatly-- Mahendra was the one and only NATIONALIST/PATRIOT leader we
ever had after Prithvi Narayan Shah. If it hadn't been Mahendra's
policies, we would be singing "jana gana mana" instead of "shri man
gambhira nepali".
Its really unfortunate to see that Nepal has totally forgotten the
contributions of Mahendra maharajdhiraj.
Good points, Bhesh ji.
Regards,
Nepalikancha
Utaule
critisize
Asu and GP saying that they have not been able to expend their analysis to
the root cause, because of their family or political back ground since their
childhood. It is different if Mr. Bhandari knows them and their family and
political background since their childhood. Who knows? their views may be
their understanding of nationalism and they like to advocate in that way.
Asu might not care of sovereignty and nationalism if Nepal can get a
Nepal-friendly
trade agreements with India and nepalikancha might be happy of achiving
nationalism
if all Rai, Limbu, Newar, Sherpas forget their mother language.
In my view, Patriotism comes first. People might speak different language
but
no matter of language he or she can be patriotic. For the sake of patriotism
people who even don't speak Nepali can give his/her life.
In the same way, anti-India is not pro-China and not a nationalism but it is
an
issue as Nepal's sovereignty is in endanger from the Indian expansionism.
The Immediate threat is India so people are against the Indian government
policy. But if there are any kind of threat from china the patriotic
Nepalese
will certainly raise voice against this.
And finally I wonder how king Mahendra protected Nepal from India?
If he is great the son of the Nepal protecotr should also be great.
Bharatriya Prabuttwobadi Murdabad
A des bhakata Nepali
Bhesh Bhandari wrote in message <38CC61D4...@fst.uq.edu.au>...
ashu...@post.harvard.edu
> "Utaule" <ash...@japanglobe.net> wrote:
> Who knows? their views may be
> their understanding of nationalism and they like to advocate in that
way.
> Asu might not care of sovereignty and nationalism if Nepal can get a
> Nepal-friendly
> trade agreements with India
I think the phrase "Nepal-friendly" assumes that whatever is decided
between Nepal and India, that agreement is in the best interests of
Nepal. And those best interests would surely include NOT compromising
Nepal's sovereignty. As such, I fail to see how something could
be "Nepal-friendly" on one hand and yet somehow be against Nepal's
sovereignty/nationalism on the other. Perhaps we need to see what
nationalism could mean.
To me, Nepali nationalism is this. Be proud that you are from Nepal
no matter where you go (America, Japan, Australia . . .)
and no matter what you do (waitering at Indian restaurants in
Singapore, baby-sitting for extra money in Boston, or cutting deals
on Wall Street as an investment banker.)
To me, Nepali nationalism does NOT mean: "Our country is better
than your country" type of blanket chauvinism nor does it mean
constant "Our country is khattam, jhoor and
third-class . . . sabai jana chor" type of inward-looking
pessimism larded with sweeping complaints.
> In my view, Patriotism comes first. People might speak different
language
> but
> no matter of language he or she can be patriotic. For the sake of
patriotism
> people who even don't speak Nepali can give his/her life.
Patriotism is a fine sentiment. But patriotism alone does not
put dal-bhaat in your stomach. And the reality is that
many, many Nepalis have been, no matter how much they love Nepal and
their families in Nepal, leaving Nepal, for the last 10 years, for
employment/educational and permanent migration opportunities in other
countries. They have not left the country because of some perceived
threat of Indian expansionism and other such nonsense, nor too have
they been forced out of the country by the government. They have
left because they wanted to. And I don't beleive that those Nepalis
are being unpatriotic in any sense.
They are guided by their economic/professional needs, and who
can fault them?
The kind of patriotism that allegedly defined the warring
era of Bhimsen Thapa and Bal Bhadra Kunwar and which continues to cast
a strong psychological pull in many of our mind holds no relevance
in today's networked world where talents are hyper mobile across
national borders, skilled manpower is in demand everywhere, and
where you need to sit side by side with yesterday's enemies to
figure out what everyone's future is going to be like.
oohi
ashu
> In the same way, anti-India is not pro-China and not a nationalism
but it is
> an
> issue as Nepal's sovereignty is in endanger from the Indian
expansionism.
> The Immediate threat is India so people are against the Indian
government
> policy. But if there are any kind of threat from china the patriotic
> Nepalese
> will certainly raise voice against this.
> Bharatriya Prabuttwobadi Murdabad
> A des bhakata Nepali
nepali...@my-deja.com
"Utaule" <ash...@japanglobe.net> wrote:
> I agree with the views of Mr. Bhandari in general but he should not
> critisize
> Asu and GP saying that they have not been able to expend their analysis to
> the root cause, because of their family or political back ground since their
> childhood. It is different if Mr. Bhandari knows them and their family and
> political background since their childhood. Who knows? their views may be
> their understanding of nationalism and they like to advocate in that way.
> Asu might not care of sovereignty and nationalism if Nepal can get a
> Nepal-friendly
> trade agreements with India and nepalikancha might be happy of achiving
> nationalism
> if all Rai, Limbu, Newar, Sherpas forget their mother language.
NO---I wouldn't be happy if everyone starts speaking Nepali. MY point is,
a developing country like Nepal needs an uniform national identity for a
certain time till certain goals are achieved. Having an uniform language/
identity only accelerates the growth/development process. Once we reach
our target point, everything revives itself-- languages resurface, and at
that time no matter what people speak it won't pose any threat to the
Nation (in terms of invasion) or in its development efforts. I meant to
say that.
In my view, Patriotism comes first. People might speak different
language
> but
> no matter of language he or she can be patriotic. For the sake of patriotism
> people who even don't speak Nepali can give his/her life.
> In the same way, anti-India is not pro-China and not a nationalism but it is
> an
> issue as Nepal's sovereignty is in endanger from the Indian expansionism.
> The Immediate threat is India so people are against the Indian government
> policy. But if there are any kind of threat from china the patriotic
> Nepalese
> will certainly raise voice against this.
>
> And finally I wonder how king Mahendra protected Nepal from India?
> If he is great the son of the Nepal protecotr should also be great.
This is how--
BY introducing Panchayat.
By introducing Panchayat
By Introducing Panchayat
> Bharatriya Prabuttwobadi Murdabad
> A des bhakata Nepali
Ma paani deshbhakta "rajbhakta " nepali nai ho!
Rajan
How can we sing "Jana mana etc.." when we have better " Hati hoina Datin
Ladne...". Do u think our history is so fickle that we would abide by India?
Nationalism can not be created in a day and destroyed in a day. It is
created from our culture, tradition and lifestyle. Do u think becuase some
people say "Jai Nepal" ( u mean congress , of course) that their natinalism
in any way is less than who say "lal salam"? To me both of them are equally
proud of being Nepalese.
Certainly India views Nepal with suspicion. This has agin been proven by
India's insistence on Indian security force in the airport. I'm no supporter
of India for any matter. But lets be realistic. Don't talk about if we were
not surrounded by India. Reality is we are surrounded by India. I don't
know whether it would have been 100 times better or worse.
<nepali...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ai396$8dq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <38CC61D4...@fst.uq.edu.au>,
> Bhesh Bhandari <b...@burger.uqg.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> Greetings,
> Excatly-- Mahendra was the one and only NATIONALIST/PATRIOT leader we
> ever had after Prithvi Narayan Shah. If it hadn't been Mahendra's
> policies, we would be singing "jana gana mana" instead of "shri man
> gambhira nepali".
> Its really unfortunate to see that Nepal has totally forgotten the
> contributions of Mahendra maharajdhiraj.
> Good points, Bhesh ji.
>
> Regards,
> Nepalikancha
>
>
nepali...@my-deja.com
"Rajan" <rbhat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> People
>
> How can we sing "Jana mana etc.." when we have better " Hati hoina Datin
> Ladne...". Do u think our history is so fickle that we would abide by India?
Coersoion-Coersion will make us sing anything. If India takes over Nepal,
we will be left with no choice-we have to abide by the Indian rules and
regulations and it includes singing Jana Gana mana instead of Shriman
Gambhira Nepali, no matter how much we take pride in telling others our
Bir Balbhadra's Bahaduri.
Nationalism can not be created in a day and destroyed in a day. It is
> created from our culture, tradition and lifestyle. Do u think becuase some
> people say "Jai Nepal" ( u mean congress , of course) that their natinalism
> in any way is less than who say "lal salam"? To me both of them are equally
> proud of being Nepalese.
nationalism can not be created or destroyed in a day--I agree--Its a slow
process but it can be restricted in case of foreign invasion or change in
the form of government.
> Certainly India views Nepal with suspicion. This has agin been proven by
> India's insistence on Indian security force in the airport. I'm no supporter
> of India for any matter. But lets be realistic. Don't talk about if we were
> not surrounded by India. Reality is we are surrounded by India. I don't
> know whether it would have been 100 times better or worse.
You goit that right. India always views nepal with suspicion. All i meant
to say by saying we would be better off without India was-We would be
better off if India stops interfaring in our internal affairs(it didn't
have anything to do with the Physical Location of INDIA).
Regards,
NepaliKancha
<nepali...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8ai396$8dq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <38CC61D4...@fst.uq.edu.au>,
> > Bhesh Bhandari <b...@burger.uqg.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> > Greetings,
> > Excatly-- Mahendra was the one and only NATIONALIST/PATRIOT leader we
> > ever had after Prithvi Narayan Shah. If it hadn't been Mahendra's
> > policies, we would be singing "jana gana mana" instead of "shri man
> > gambhira nepali".
> > Its really unfortunate to see that Nepal has totally forgotten the
> > contributions of Mahendra maharajdhiraj.
> > Good points, Bhesh ji.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nepalikancha
> >
> >