Let us convert all "Sarkis" to "Brahmins"
bhesh bhandari
You might belong to upper caste in "Hindu" religion as you were better of
and could use this internet. Most probably you are living in a developed
country too. You might be offended with my point of view, because even if
you believe caste system is wrong, you still carry that caste
internally.
How do you feel if all the "Sarkis" are converted to "Brahmins" and all
the "Brahmins" are made "Sarkis"? If you are a Brahmin and imagine you have
been converted to "Sarki", do not you feel bad? Will it be much worse than
working in a white country where you say there is a racism (colour racism)?
All the lower caste people have been socially, morally, psychologically
supressed since their birth. An innocent child is untouchable. It is a sin.
Even I say Bratabandha ceremony is a sin in a relative term if it makes you
more
superior than "Sarkis". One genuine human will abandon this Bratabandha act
which descriminates between lower and upper caste and men and women. You
can still believe on Hindu God without this, even though you live somewhere
far from Himalaya where Hindu God used to live (after Himalaya was formed
due to the collision of two piece of land mass).
I am sorry if you are born in a Brahmin family, but you may not be a
Brahmin as
Brahmins were for conducting puja and conveying message from Gita. You do
not do
it anymore. So you are no more Brahmin.
How do you feel if I am a Sarki and ask you to be converted to Sarki
quitting your
Brahmin, Chettri or other immoral religious denomination? Feel yourself,
will you accept this? If not, you might be more racist than racist white
people.
Unfortunately, there will be no other lower caste person to read this
arguement. We will never hear voice from them, all are supressed.
Let us convert all the"Sarkis" to Brahmins. This will make Hindu religion
more equal.
Believe me I am really a "Sarki Bhandari".
Note: "Sarki" represents lower all the lower caste groups.
Dig Tamang
Bhandariji,
You better read manu's law, but I don't belief it, whatever written
in it.
DB
Ashutosh Tiwari
>How do you feel if all the "Sarkis" are converted to "Brahmins" and all
>the "Brahmins" are made "Sarkis"? If you are a Brahmin and imagine you have
>been converted to "Sarki", do not you feel bad? Will it be much worse than
>working in a white country where you say there is a racism (colour racism)?
First of all, there is no such category as "Sarkis" in the ORTHODOX
Hindu Varna system. Sarkis or cobblers, as craftsmen of rubber/skin
materials for stuff such as shoes, would be considered Vaiysa. That
they were/are considered 'untouchables' in parts of Nepal is due to
the fact that the sarkis make use of cow-hides and other "dead
animal ko chhalaa" to make shoes and stuff, and anyone dealing with
such "chhala" would be considered impure or untouchable in the
Hindu orthodoxy.
Note that hunters, who were often of 'noble' birth, are/were
not considered impure or untouchable. What's more, "mriga ko
chhhala" (deer hide) is considered quite holy, and are used
during many Hindu functions.
Now, who converts the Brahmins to sarkis and vice versa? No
one. Sarkis in Nepal have the option to convert to Christianity
or to Islam or to anything they want to convert to. With that
option open to them, why would they want to become Brahmins or
Chettris?
>Even I say Bratabandha ceremony is a sin in a relative term if it makes you
>more
>superior than "Sarkis". One genuine human will abandon this Bratabandha act
>which descriminates between lower and upper caste and men and women.
Bratabandha is a sort of a 'coming of age' or an initiation ceremony for
most Hindu boys and young men. Most groups all over the world have
some sort of initiation rites -- whether religious, physical or
cultural -- for their boys/young men. The Tamangs in
Nepal, for example, have similar 'coming of age'/initiation
ceremonies called "che-war", and so forth. The Jewish people
have their Bar-Mitzvah (sp?) and so forth.
The Bahuns deep in Rolpa and Rukum, and you can verify this if you
don't believe me, even SERVE jaand (home-fermented alcohol) during
their bratabandh
and wedding ceremonies, which they merrily share with their
neighboring Magars.
And for the past few years, Swami Prapanna Charya (a Kirati Hindu
Guru, if you can believe this!) in Kathmandu
has been conducting "mass bratabandha" in Ban Kali, Kathmandu, where
he gives out the gayatri mantra and janai (sacred thread) to Newars,
Magars, Rais, Bahuns, Gurungs, Limbus, Tharus, Damai, sarkis, kami
and so forth. And guess what, the Viswo Hindu Parishad, which
has its Nepal Chapter ko office right in Ban Kali has not even
gone around to protest against Swami Prapanna Charya's doing
such "brata.bandha".
So much for bratabanda being, as it were, SOLELY
'a ceremony for oppression', as Bhesh leads us to believe.
oohi
ashu
Rajpal J. Singh
Ashutosh Tiwari <tiw...@login4.fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>First of all, there is no such category as "Sarkis" in the ORTHODOX
>Hindu Varna system. Sarkis or cobblers, as craftsmen of rubber/skin
>materials for stuff such as shoes, would be considered Vaiysa.
Small correction: Manu smirti and 4 varna system puts the groups
mentioned above to the varna known as "Shudra" and not "Vaishya".
But keep moving the discussions......Its important and I'm enjoying
the kura_kani.
regards,
rjps
"One life to live but many lives to change!" -SK
Ashutosh Tiwari
> Small correction: Manu smirti and 4 varna system puts the groups
> mentioned above to the varna known as "Shudra" and not "Vaishya".
> But keep moving the discussions......Its important and I'm enjoying
> the kura_kani.
Thanks Rajpal for the clarification. Vaishyas are craftsmen
and traders and merchants. Sarkis are craftsmen and traders, as they make
and sell shoes, and hence they are lower-rung Vaishyas,
just like kamis and damais and kasai who are ironsmiths, 'village
musicians'/tailors and butcher respectively, and are lower-rung Vaishyas.
In theory, the sarkis get their supply of "chhaala" from the
Podays (who have an easy access to dead animal ko chaala in rivers)
and the Chyamays, who are sweepers, and the podays and chyamays are
the so-called Shudras. To a strictly orthodox Hindu Brahmin, all
Vaishyas and Sudras are untouchables anyway though they will buy
products made by the kamis, sarkis, damai and kasai.
Interestingly enough, in various parts of Nepal, a kami considers
a damai an untouchable for his jaat, and a damai considers the sarkis
untouchable for his jaat, and a kasai would never sit down and eat
with a damai. This being the unfortunate reality, the issue of
untouchability is a more complex than the simple 'Brahmin versus
the sarkis" configuration.
namaste
ashu
Motiraj Gurung
bhesh bhandari (b...@burger.uqg.edu.au) wrote:
: Dear all,
: You might belong to upper caste in "Hindu" religion as you were better of
: and could use this internet. Most probably you are living in a developed
: country too. You might be offended with my point of view, because even if
: you believe caste system is wrong, you still carry that caste
: internally.
: How do you feel if all the "Sarkis" are converted to "Brahmins" and all
: the "Brahmins" are made "Sarkis"? If you are a Brahmin and imagine you have
: been converted to "Sarki", do not you feel bad? Will it be much worse than
: working in a white country where you say there is a racism (colour racism)?
: All the lower caste people have been socially, morally, psychologically
: supressed since their birth. An innocent child is untouchable. It is a sin.
: Even I say Bratabandha ceremony is a sin in a relative term if it makes you
: more
: superior than "Sarkis". One genuine human will abandon this Bratabandha act
: which descriminates between lower and upper caste and men and women. You
: can still believe on Hindu God without this, even though you live somewhere
: far from Himalaya where Hindu God used to live (after Himalaya was formed
: due to the collision of two piece of land mass).
: I am sorry if you are born in a Brahmin family, but you may not be a
: Brahmin as
: Brahmins were for conducting puja and conveying message from Gita. You do
: not do
: it anymore. So you are no more Brahmin.
: How do you feel if I am a Sarki and ask you to be converted to Sarki
: quitting your
: Brahmin, Chettri or other immoral religious denomination? Feel yourself,
: will you accept this? If not, you might be more racist than racist white
: people.
: Unfortunately, there will be no other lower caste person to read this
: arguement. We will never hear voice from them, all are supressed.
: Let us convert all the"Sarkis" to Brahmins. This will make Hindu religion
: more equal.
: Believe me I am really a "Sarki Bhandari".
: Note: "Sarki" represents lower all the lower caste groups.
What's so great about being a baun? Do you know how the caste system
started? There was a group of people who were the guys in charge. They
proceeded to appoint a guy to do the praying ; he became a baun, a guy
to wash; he became a sarki(?); a guy to do the metalworks ;cami, etc etc
etc. These guys who did the appointing thus have no occupation
associated with their caste. These guys are the tamangs, rais,
gurungs,sherpas,subbas,thapas,etc. but eventually it was inevitable for
the gap between the god guy and the washer guy to widen. This theory
comes to you from Professor Gurung. Have fun ;-)
RDAHAL
>And for the past few years, Swami Prapanna Charya (a Kirati Hindu
>Guru, if you can believe this!) in Kathmandu
>has been conducting "mass bratabandha" in Ban Kali, Kathmandu, where
>he gives out the gayatri mantra and janai (sacred thread) to Newars,
>Magars, Rais, Bahuns, Gurungs, Limbus, Tharus, Damai, sarkis,
We need more people like Swamy Prapanna Charya to root out the caste system.
Arya Samaj too has been active in this regard.
>And guess what, the Viswo Hindu Parishad, which
>has its Nepal Chapter ko office right in Ban Kali has not even
>gone around to protest against Swami Prapanna Charya's doing
>such "brata.bandha".
VHP is reformist(as far as the problems in Hinduism goes) in chacracter
therefore I see no reason why it should protest the Swamy's good work.
The Hindu religious leaders and the" Brahmin" community should apologize
collectively for the centuries of discrimination and oppression of the so
called "Shudras."This, I believe, will impart a healing touch and help to bring
about a genuine reform in the caste system and ultimately eliminate it.The
Hindus in the Carribians, Mauritius, Bali and Fiji do not have the repressive
system therefore we in Nepal too can do it.Tat Twam Asi.
RDahal
RDAHAL
> Bhandariji,
>
> You better read manu's law, but I don't belief it, whatever written
>in it.
>DB
If you read Manusmriti, do it as an academic exercise.Manu was a man and he was
not infallible.In this day and age, Manusmriti is dead and cremated and
rightfully so. Please don't harp on Manusmriti to make a point against the
Hindus.
RDahal
Dig Tamang
RDahalji.
Namaskar! First of all, I am not the one who brought this issue in
social culture. Mr. Bhesh Bhandari was the one who introduced this issue.
Secondly, you said Manusmriti had already been cremated? I wonder how
you cremated the Manusmriti? You probably must be very high Class
Brahmin therefore you do not care about manusmriti. However,in reality,
munusmriti still alive in the Indian Subcontinent.
Let me inform you that the Hindu caste system is created in accordance
with Manusmriti.Our present hierarchy social system was crated more thatn
3000 years ago when nomadic groups migrated to India from the Indus valley
(north) about 1500 BC, the priests law maker created our present caste
system in India.Brahmans head of caste next in order of rank were the
warrior, the Kshatriaya.Third came the Vaisyas, the farmers and merchants.
The fourth of the original castes was Sudra, the laborers, born to be
servants to the other three castes specially the Brahman. But now a dyas
Sudras are untouchables. The Sudras were the Dravidians, the oboriginal
inhabitants of India,to whose ranks from time to time were added the
pariahas or outcasts, people expelled for religous or social sins from the
classes into whihc they had been born, Thus crated by the priests, the
caste systme was made a part of Hindu religious law, rendered secure by
the claim of divine revelation.The caste systme has been perpetuated by
the Hidu ideas of samsara(reincarnation) and Karma.
I admire your idea but we still have to face the fact.
Jay Nepal
with regard
Dig B. Tamang
Ashutosh Tiwari
>If you read Manusmriti, do it as an academic exercise.Manu was a man and he was
>not infallible.In this day and age, Manusmriti is dead and cremated and
>rightfully so. Please don't harp on Manusmriti to make a point against the
>Hindus.
>RDahal
Unfortunately, or so I would think, the Nepali legal system, as it stands,
is an amalgam of mostly Hindu jurisprudence, animism, customary laws,
and bits of English common-law -- all thrown in an eight-year old cauldron
that's supposed to be the Westminster-style Parliamentary Democracy.
Our day-to-day kaam garne Civil Code, called the
Muluki Ain, though modified time and again, shows many, what would
now be considered, biases that have their origins in Manu Smriti.
To be sure, Nepal is not a LEGALLY Hindu country in the sense
that Afganistan with its Talibans now is a LEGALLY Islamic country.
Nontheless, since much of Hindu jurisprudence is alive in our
laws and regulations (for details, please see: "Muluki Ain: Ek
Tippani" by Gaiendra Bdr. Shrestha, Pairawi Prakashan), and since much
of that jurisprudence derives its legitimacy from Manu Smriti,
it's fair to say that Manu Smriti is not yet "dead" in Nepal.
namaste
ashu
tamang
Ashutosh Tiwari wrote:
> a10...@cs.niu.edu (Rajpal J. Singh) writes:
>
> > Small correction: Manu smirti and 4 varna system puts the groups
> > mentioned above to the varna known as "Shudra" and not "Vaishya".
>
> > But keep moving the discussions......Its important and I'm enjoying
> > the kura_kani.
>
> Thanks Rajpal for the clarification. Vaishyas are craftsmen
> and traders and merchants. Sarkis are craftsmen and traders, as they make
> and sell shoes, and hence they are lower-rung Vaishyas,
> just like kamis and damais and kasai who are ironsmiths, 'village
> musicians'/tailors and butcher respectively, and are lower-rung Vaishyas.
>
True, by trade Sarkis are Vaishayas but they still confined to the world of Sudras, the untouchable. The contribution of the so called untouchables are indispensable in our society yet they are hardly appreciated much less respected in the Hindu caste hierarchy.
tamang
Motiraj Gurung wrote:
> What's so great about being a baun? Do you know how the caste system
> started? There was a group of people who were the guys in charge. They
> proceeded to appoint a guy to do the praying ; he became a baun, a guy
> to wash; he became a sarki(?); a guy to do the metalworks ;cami, etc etc
> etc. These guys who did the appointing thus have no occupation
> associated with their caste. These guys are the tamangs, rais,
> gurungs,sherpas,subbas,thapas,etc. but eventually it was inevitable for
> the gap between the god guy and the washer guy to widen. This theory
> comes to you from Professor Gurung. Have fun ;-)
Your idea that Tamang, Rai, Gurugns ....had no occupation is not true, each ethnic group were busy working like Damai and Kamis and Bahuns.
Anil Tuladhar
: "bhesh bhandari" <b...@burger.uqg.edu.au> writes:
: Now, who converts the Brahmins to sarkis and vice versa? No
: one. Sarkis in Nepal have the option to convert to Christianity
: or to Islam or to anything they want to convert to. With that
: option open to them, why would they want to become Brahmins or
: Chettris?
Exactly true. But if I were in love with a brahmin lady and her parents
were kattar hindus, I would choose to convert to a brahman for that 'love'.
I think the idea is not that bad. Any 'samaj sudharak' or 'kanoon
sudharak' should note this point. There are more than hundreds of
suicides in Nepal and India every year just beacuse of 'Hindu jat-pat' and
love affairs. The Buddhists of Nepal are also NOT immune to this malady,
thanks to the tremendous effect of Hinduism.
Caste system is one of the most unwanted element in Hinduism. We are
better off without it so all the measures which removes or dilutes this
element are welcome.
: Bratabandha is a sort of a 'coming of age' or an initiation ceremony for
: most Hindu boys and young men. Most groups all over the world have
: some sort of initiation rites -- whether religious, physical or
: cultural -- for their boys/young men. The Tamangs in
: Nepal, for example, have similar 'coming of age'/initiation
: ceremonies called "che-war", and so forth. The Jewish people
: have their Bar-Mitzvah (sp?) and so forth.
The difference, however, is the discrimination towards the lower caste
people. I believe they can not do bratabandh or are not allowed to visit
the temple.
: The Bahuns deep in Rolpa and Rukum, and you can verify this if you
: don't believe me, even SERVE jaand (home-fermented alcohol) during
: their bratabandh
: and wedding ceremonies, which they merrily share with their
: neighboring Magars.
That might be the influence of Magars. Bahun le kahin Rakshi khanchha ra
bhanya? :)
: And for the past few years, Swami Prapanna Charya (a Kirati Hindu
: Guru, if you can believe this!) in Kathmandu
: has been conducting "mass bratabandha" in Ban Kali, Kathmandu, where
: he gives out the gayatri mantra and janai (sacred thread) to Newars,
: Magars, Rais, Bahuns, Gurungs, Limbus, Tharus, Damai, sarkis, kami
: and so forth. And guess what, the Viswo Hindu Parishad, which
: has its Nepal Chapter ko office right in Ban Kali has not even
: gone around to protest against Swami Prapanna Charya's doing
: such "brata.bandha".
Good to know this. This would have been better if he could do this
inside the Pashupatinath Temple. We need to remove all the existing
discriminations towards the lower caste people. We need laws to enforce
this forcefully.
And we need someone like this for Inter-caste marriage too. Can I marry
a Sarkini in Guheshwori (Pashupatinath) temple? (Impossible, because I am
already married. :))
:So much for bratabanda being, as it were, SOLELY
: 'a ceremony for oppression', as Bhesh leads us to believe.
bratabanda may not be a tool of oppression but the caste system IS. So
we need to do something soon to cremate it.
: oohi
: ashu
--
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Ashutosh Tiwari
>Caste system is one of the most unwanted element in Hinduism. We are
>better off without it so all the measures which removes or dilutes this
>element are welcome.
Well, the laws of Nepal do not recognize the caste-system now. Legally,
we are a caste-blind nation, where only your citizenship in the state of
Nepal matters. But, of course, this doesn't mean that there is no
discrimination -- overt or covert, based on one's caste hierarchies.
>The difference, however, is the discrimination towards the lower caste
>people. I believe they can not do bratabandh or are not allowed to visit
>the temple.
Temples in Kathmandu post signs that say "Only Hindus are allowed".
Somebody I know, who's half-Russian and half-Nepali and who has brown hair
and blue eyes and who speaks fluent Nepali, says that whenever he goes to
Pashupatinath, he's often stopped at the Gate. Only when he starts to
shout/curse and give 'gali' in Nepali do the astonished guards, not
knowing what to do, allow him to enter.
Note that, in parctice, non-Nepalis and non-Hindus who sort of look like
Nepalis (you know, with short height, kalo kapal, and kalo eyes) can
easily enter Pashupati nath ko temple, without creating any stir. Ditto
for Sarkis, kamis and damais: since people's 'sarkiness' or damainess' is
not written up on their faces, it's very hard -- from the temple guards'
point of view -- NOT to let all who look like Nepalis and therefore are,
in the mind of the guards, presumably Hindus.
The issue of allowing one into the temple then amounts to: discrimination
based on the color of your skin or hair. If you are White, and have brown
hair, it's simply assumed that you must be a "gai khanay kuiray", and
stopped at the door . . .
>: The Bahuns deep in Rolpa and Rukum, and you can verify this if you
>: don't believe me, even SERVE jaand (home-fermented alcohol) during
>: their bratabandh
>: and wedding ceremonies, which they merrily share with their
>: neighboring Magars.
>That might be the influence of Magars. Bahun le kahin Rakshi khanchha ra
>bhanya? :)
Yes, this is the influence of the Magars. I was totally astonished
by this custom of tthe Rolpali bahuns who call this, "jaad foo.ka.u.nay
chalan". Maybe this is why Babu Ram chose Rolpa to start his Maoist
operations . . . OK, OK, don't shoot me. Just kidding!!
>inside the Pashupatinath Temple. We need to remove all the existing
>discriminations towards the lower caste people. We need laws to enforce
>this forcefully.
There are laws of course, but in a country where the majority of lawyers
and lawmakers themselves are dominantly Sanskrit-trained (thru Teen Dhara
Paakshala and Balmiki Bidyapeeth) pundit bahuns, don't expect them to use
the law as an instrument of social justice when it comes to eliminating
the effects of caste-system. Maintenance of status quo is more likely.
>And we need someone like this for Inter-caste marriage too. Can I marry
>a Sarkini in Guheshwori (Pashupatinath) temple? (Impossible, because I am
>already married. :))
Isn't it that once you fall in love, it's IRRELEVANT (at least to you, and
I use the pronoun you in its general sense) what the ethnicity or the
natiionality of your lover is? Or, should reformist bahuns or others of
so-called high castes deliberately search for so-called lower-caste women
to fall in love with and
eliminate the the bugaboo of the caste-system? :-)
>: oohi
>: ashu
pokh...@hotmail.com
My understanding is that Nepali Bahuns can change very fast with time
compared to indian brhamins. It can be observed through their eating
habit in foreign land. Most (99.99% My guess) of the Nepali bahuns
living in foreign land don't have JANAI, don't perform any Puja Path
and are not really Bahuns as Ved defines. They eat Pork, Beef which a Nepali
Brhamin should avoid (Indian Brhamins are usually vegetarain). The
educated Nepalis living in Kathmandu are enjoyig MOMO. When they return
to their Villages, they pretend as if pure Brhamin and don't touch SARKIS
or DAMAIS. Why? Its more an ego problem. i had seen Bahuns accepting
Khaini, Churot etc. from Untouchables and felt its changing slowly. It
can be accelerated if the so called untouchables be educated, be clean,
avoid eating dead animals. Then peoples will live together. But, the
current trend of marriage in Nepal which is all most 100% arranged marriage,
will not accept the girls from lower class caste. It will vanish only if
we have education for all and more importantly JOB/EMPLOYMENT for all.
If a young boy/girl feels safe/independent without parental property
only then we can hope intercaste marriages and collapse of current
caste hierarchy. Right now, i don't see any appreciable progress in
the independancy of the youngs from Parental influence. Without intercaste
marriages (its a bridge), the caste system will never collapse.
Until the end of 19th century, Japan also had the very similar caste
system and collapsed as peoples became educated, economically independent
from their parents and got the freedom to find their own bride-groom
by themselves. Thus, the caste system will collapse only when there is
freedom in intercaste marriages. Its only possible if there are enough
JOB with good salary. Even if Mr. Birendra Shah becomes Birendra Sarki
its not acceptable if Birendra Sarki is not economically independent.
If s/he is too strong economically, no one will avoid her/ him or his kids.
Changing name/surname will not affect much, if you don't change your
habit. Habit changes with your education and economic condition.
Shall we change our habits?
GP
>
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Anil Tuladhar
: tula...@unixg.ubc.ca (Anil Tuladhar) writes:
: Well, the laws of Nepal do not recognize the caste-system now. Legally,
: we are a caste-blind nation, where only your citizenship in the state of
: Nepal matters. But, of course, this doesn't mean that there is no
: discrimination -- overt or covert, based on one's caste hierarchies.
I have been a victim of this caste system so I know very well what I am
talking about.
: Temples in Kathmandu post signs that say "Only Hindus are allowed".
Should not that read 'Only Nepalis are allowed' if they are afraid with
Kuireys knowing our religious secrets? Can someone let us whether
'Hare-rama' group can enter Pashupatinath Temple?
:
: for Sarkis, kamis and damais: since people's 'sarkiness' or damainess' is
: not written up on their faces, it's very hard -- from the temple guards'
: point of view -- NOT to let all who look like Nepalis and therefore are,
: in the mind of the guards, presumably Hindus.
what if 'sarkiness or damainess' is written in their face? My question
is, will those guards in Pashupatinath Temple allow 'Shudras' if they know
that they are 'shrudras'?
Yet another question is 'how does 'Shudras' celebrate their religious
festivals?' Do they go to the temples? Have any body seen a 'chyame/pode'
offering flowers to Shiva lingam in the Pashupati nath? Is there any
'shudra' reading this to give us some first hand experience?
: There are laws of course, but in a country where the majority of lawyers
: and lawmakers themselves are dominantly Sanskrit-trained (thru Teen Dhara
: Paakshala and Balmiki Bidyapeeth) pundit bahuns, don't expect them to use
: the law as an instrument of social justice when it comes to eliminating
: the effects of caste-system. Maintenance of status quo is more likely.
That is what needs to be changed. I do not know how we can change this
but I feel we need to have a high level reforming body and not just
kanoons. We need more Prapanna Charyas who could reform a big chunk
of society. This will definitely help to raise the consciousness.
: Isn't it that once you fall in love, it's IRRELEVANT (at least to you, and
: I use the pronoun you in its general sense) what the ethnicity or the
: natiionality of your lover is? Or, should reformist bahuns or others of
: so-called high castes deliberately search for so-called lower-caste women
: to fall in love with and
: eliminate the the bugaboo of the caste-system? :-)
Yes, it's love which matters. But what if I love a Hindu girl and her
parents are against me only because my surname is not a Hindu one and they
marry her to someone of their own 'high' caste person breaking my heart.
In such a situation, the caste system definitely needs to be blamed and
I have gone through this so have a first hand experience. I am not
saying that we all should find someone from another caste for the sake
of removing this caste system. What I wanted is a social system which
accepts and encourages inter-caste marriage. Then we can convince those
suspicious parents more easily. Otherwise, the parents love their social
'Izzat' more than the choice (welfare) of their daughter. It is not
always the parents who are bad but the people (Samaaj) around them
create a big fuss. They threaten the parents to ostracize from the
society. The most powerful element which antagonize parents from
Inter-caste marriage is the long hold Hindu belief that if you marry
your daughter to some lower caste person, she is no more 'chokho' to do
the rituals after the death of the parents hence the parents will have to
suffer in hell (hungry) forever after the death. Who wants to go hungry
for eternity. haan? Nobody. So ... a big NO to inter-caste marriage.
: >: oohi
: >: ashu
More comments welcome.
Ashutosh Tiwari
>True, by trade Sarkis are Vaishayas but they still confined to the world
>of Sudras, the untouchable. The contribution of the so called
>untouchables
>are indispensable in our society yet they are hardly appreciated much
>less respected in the Hindu caste hierarchy.
The issue of untouchability operates on many levels in Nepal.
For example, Kathmandu's culturally rich Newars have their
own "paani chal.nay" and "paani na.chal.nay" jaat, their
own uccha jaat and tallo jaat. A friend of mine, Chitrakar
got married to a Bajracharya, and one of their families
never welcomed back the offending progeny. To an outsider,
their marriage might look like a Newar getting married to
Newar. But from the point of view of caste-hierarchies
WITHIN the Newar society, a Chitrakar is never "equal"
to Bajracharya.
We may like or dislike such fact; but it exists
nonetheless. My point is here is that I agree with Gyanesworji
in that Bahuns (at least, modern-day Kathmandu ka bahuns)
have cleverly shed their caste-rigidity to be your
upwardly-mobile 'westernized' secular professional.
I am amused that in America, at least, our young
bahun professionals can talk eloquently, over steak
and raksi, about
the atrocities of the caste system with his liberal
White friends, while one day quietly going back
home to get married to a nice bahun woman that his
parents have selected for him. And guess what,
his wedding takes place with pukka, pure Hindu
rituals that last for 4 days. Ah, the bahuns,
more than any other ethnic groups in Nepal,
are clever when it comes to adaptng to both
the Nepal and to places outside Nepal.
mischievously
ashu
pokh...@hotmail.com
died due to natural causes, other than slaughtered/killed by human.
In article <6oec5n$v08$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
pokh...@hotmail.com
an anti-maobadi Nepali.
Ashutosh Tiwari
>: There are laws of course, but in a country where the majority of lawyers
>: and lawmakers themselves are dominantly Sanskrit-trained (thru Teen Dhara
>: Paakshala and Balmiki Bidyapeeth) pundit bahuns, don't expect them to use
>: the law as an instrument of social justice when it comes to eliminating
>: the effects of caste-system. Maintenance of status quo is more likely.
>That is what needs to be changed. I do not know how we can change this
>but I feel we need to have a high level reforming body and not just
>kanoons. We need more Prapanna Charyas who could reform a big chunk
>of society. This will definitely help to raise the consciousness.
Well, everyone seems to hate lawyers . . . whether in Nepal or in the US.
But the problem in Nepal is made all the more poignant due to the fact
that, by and large, our best and brightest high school and college
graduates do NOT think about becoming lawyers.
Going to the Nepal Law Campus, Nepal's premier law school, is usually for
the SLC second- to third- division holders, and even among them, Brahmins,
for better or worse, hold a disproportinately large number of every
entering class. Part of this is due to the dominance of Nepali bhasa in
our legal regime, and that bhasa, let's face it, is biased in favor of the
Bahuns, Chettris. Otherwise very qualified Rais, Gurungs, Tharus, Limbus
and so forth often barely pass their SLC ko compulsory Nepali paper to
even get the division grades to enter the Law Campus.
Though there are token Tharus, Gurungs and so forth among
its student body, the Law Campus seems not interested in
recruiting and admitting a cross-section of QUALIFIED
Nepalis from various jaat and varna.
It is interesting to note that the except for the tossing out the
"Panchayat ko textbook" , the course-syllabi of the Law Campus hasn't
changed much since the Jan Andolan. So, forget about new or relevant legal
thinking to ever emanate from Nepal . . . Nepali lawyers are only good at
reacting, often self-defensively, to changes forced upon them by the
changing times, and not good and understanding and intrepreting those
times.
namaste
ashu
bak...@my-dejanews.com
My dear Ashutosh and all other Nepali friends and foes,
I have been watching this thread very carefully. The accuser and the accused,
for once, are all Nepali citizens or the expatriates. This is what this and
other discussion groups were created for. Airing the opinions, not for
praising the country alone. You are doing a good job, all of you. My tribute
and two cent;s worth opinion. Never try to silence the voice you do not like.
The voices, like issues, don't go away. Face the truth, address it the best
you can and benefit from the exchange of ideas.
Sid Harth..."For once I am speechless."
http://www.comebackkid.com/views.html
RBADBX
do gods, centaurs, or ancestors say, ' This is right, that is wrong.'
Apsatmaba Dharma Sutra
To set up a law-book of the kind of Manu means to concede to a people the right
henceforth to become masterly, to become perfect-to be ambitious for the
highest art of living. To that end, the law must be made unconcious: this is
the purpose of every holy lie.
Nietzsche
The above quoted from:
The Laws of Manu:
Translated by Wendy Doniger
Penguin Books
Getting off topic:
Do not fly to Nepal on
Pakistani International Airways.
To summarize:
- Baggage did not arrive for a week
- No compensation in the mean time
- Baggage cut, an attempt at stealing
- To reconfirm the ticket on the way back, Nepalese nationals and others need
to provide three passport size photos, three copies of passport and other
documents such as green card etc. One for the PIA Office in Ktm, one at
Karachi to get the boarding pass, one before entering the aircraft. !!!
-- They ask you for your old passport!!
-- If they want to, they confisticate your passport and give it to you when you
land in the U.S( happened to two neplaese fellow travellers, a student and a
tourist, and other nationals). Don't ask any questions regarding the
confistication. The response will be a crude, rude, arrogant,, "Go, Go,". If
you insist, the head Immigrant huncho Officer will shout(at you), " Do you want
to go to the U.S. or stay in Pakistan".
-- Took over 50+ hours to get from Nepal to New York. Flight canceled in
Karachi after a waiting 15 hours. No apologies, take it or leave it. Most of
the announcement in Urdu only. So if you do not understand it, tough luck. If
only I had a nuclear bomb.
A living nightmare. Good and efficient security check is one thing but getting
to the point of absurdity is something else. Oh! what one has to go through
when one try's to save few hundred dollars. Not worth it. Will never do it
again, even for free. I advise the same to everyone else.
Nepal was great. Nobody cares about anything. Cest -la -vi, seems to be the
attitude. Given the conditions, I think a healthy one. Discussion's in the SCN
just seem meaningless and absurd for me right now, looking at it from the
view point of the average kancha-ek botal chang- kazi.
I see Sid Harth has become 'Bakula'
I hope he manages to fly away, maybe he hasn't earned his wings..
Rajeev, NY
pokh...@hotmail.com
on chemistry. There was a paragraph on Jammu - Kashmir route. Author wrote:
Peoples had to spend several extra hours because, the bus had
to climb to the top and down again to the toe of
the tall mountain between Kashmir and Jammu. Once
a tunnel ( I had also passed through this tunnel) was drilled
at a lower level, the time was reduced remarkably. The author
then wrote that catalytic agent is used to accelerate the
time to reach the goal, while keeping the ultimate result (Kashmir)
unchanged. Then, Malai catalytic agent ko meaning CHARLANGA BHAYO.
So, in our society also we need catalytic agents to accelerate
the process of changing untouchables to touchables equal to
brhamin. Not every one can be catalytic agent, depending on
the issue, catalytic agents vary. The communists were good catalytic
agent in china to control the corrupt society and while the
same Maobadi seems unsuccessful in Nepal.
In current Nepal, to bring such changes the person in Power should
or have will. If GPK goes to Pashupati Nath ko Temple with a well
known untouchable like Gayekkar Pariyar, then, only we can hope
over the night change. I am not sure whether its true or not, but,
Junga Bahadur Rana changed the pani-nachalne-a newari caste to
Pani chalne jaat (M.......) because the untouchable
helped Junge when he was spending time in a well(?).
It was accepted for forever. If UML really want changes, one of their
office secretary should be untouchable, and serve tea to all guests
by him. One bhari bokne Rame Pokharel marriage Sita Sarkini will not
matter in national scale, rather Rame Pokharel will be a victim.
The appropriate person should do such things.
(Kids shall not read the next paragraph: I extend my appology if
someone is offended)
I remember a short documnetary on a Great American Lady. She was
victim of sexual abuse (?) at the start of her career as a Hollywood
Actress. In order to protest such thing she never wore pantie(underwear)
in any movie, even when she died she did not have it. She slept with
top political leaders. She had made very good relation with President
Truman. She had one black (african american) servant, she liked her
(the servant) so much that she dared to take her to a party in White house
where America's leading White Political leaders, stars have gathered.
When she entered the whitehouse everybody looked her suspiciously,
but, no one could raise finger. The black lady became the
first black person to enter the white house and African Americans
admire the white lady for her great work, she is still adimirred
for her work. So, we also need such great wo/man who is publicly
influential and noteworty. We need such catalytic agents, if we
expect real changes in a short time. Otherwise, the current drama
will continue few more generations.
GP
One of the tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem
before it becomes emergency--- Arnold Glasow
In article <6oepcv$djq$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
tiw...@login2.fas.harvard.edu (Ashutosh Tiwari) wrote:
> The issue of untouchability operates on many levels in Nepal.
<deleted>
>
> Bahuns (at least, modern-day Kathmandu ka bahuns)
> have cleverly shed their caste-rigidity to be your
> upwardly-mobile 'westernized' secular professional.
>
> I am amused that in America, at least, our young
> bahun professionals can talk eloquently, over steak
> and raksi, about
> the atrocities of the caste system with his liberal
> White friends, while one day quietly going back
> home to get married to a nice bahun woman that his
> parents have selected for him. And guess what,
> his wedding takes place with pukka, pure Hindu
> rituals that last for 4 days. Ah, the bahuns,
> more than any other ethnic groups in Nepal,
> are clever when it comes to adaptng to both
> the Nepal and to places outside Nepal.
>
> mischievously
> ashu
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Dahmoines
>warrior, the Kshatriaya.Third came the Vaisyas, the farmers and merchants.
>The fourth of the original castes was Sudra, the laborers, born to be
>servants to the other three castes specially the Brahman. But n
Mr. Tamang,
Since you seem to know a lot about Manusmriti
could you enlighten us on the following.
Shouldn't Kshatriyas being Kings and rulers,
and Vaisyas, being merchants( present day Donald Trumps in the american
context) be ranked higher than the Brahmins.
Aside from being priests, after all the brahmins
very livlihood depended on donations and charity from Kshatriyas and Vaisyas,
or else they probably would have starved to death.
Thank you.
DS
Raghu Seshadri
: Mr. Tamang,
:
: Since you seem to know a lot about Manusmriti
: could you enlighten us on the following.
: Shouldn't Kshatriyas being Kings and rulers,
: and Vaisyas, being merchants( present day Donald Trumps in the american
: context) be ranked higher than the Brahmins.
: Aside from being priests, after all the brahmins
: very livlihood depended on donations and charity from Kshatriyas and Vaisyas,
: or else they probably would have starved to death.
This would be true in a materialistic society
such as our modern ones, but the ancients had
different value systems. The brahmins were the
learned ones, both in the earthly knowledge
such as mathematics and linguistics, and
spiritual knowledge. Hence their status and
prestige. As nothing other than money and
power is worshipped today, if we were to
organize a caste system today, you are right,
your scheme would be the one that would win.
But such was not the case in ancient India
or Nepal.
In a few places, even in the modern society,
men of knowledge are honored, even though
they will starve to death if the university
does not pay them. So even modern society is
not completely materialistic.
RS
tamang
pokh...@hotmail.com wrote:
This is a good issue in the forth coming election. UML can try it.My understanding is that Nepali Bahuns can change very fast with time
compared to indian brhamins. It can be observed through their eating
habit in foreign land. Most (99.99% My guess) of the Nepali bahuns
living in foreign land don't have JANAI, don't perform any Puja Path
and are not really Bahuns as Ved defines. They eat Pork, Beef which a Nepali
Brhamin should avoid (Indian Brhamins are usually vegetarain). The
educated Nepalis living in Kathmandu are enjoyig MOMO. When they return
to their Villages, they pretend as if pure Brhamin and don't touch SARKIS
or DAMAIS. Why? Its more an ego problem. i had seen Bahuns accepting
Khaini, Churot etc. from Untouchables and felt its changing slowly. It
can be accelerated if the so called untouchables be educated, be clean,
avoid eating dead animals.
...........text sniped....I think Mr. Bhandari is right that old habits are hard to get rid because of an ego, social pressure, lack of conviction, education or whatever... The racism based on the accident of birth is appalling especially when most educated segment of our countyr continues suppress the untouchable with an archaic ideologies of religious purity. Educational advancement of the untouchables is the way to go, but I wonder how many incarnations a cow have to go through before a Sharki be allowed not only to walk with Bahuns but call each other samadhe(in laws ?)? Education is promising but cleanliness is what I am most concern with. Does one become impure, pervert, immoral, unclean on what he/she consumes? I don't know what Kuran or or Buddhi Samma ( noble eightfold path) says, but the Bible says, it is not what one eats that defiles him, but what comes out of the mouth; pure and simple. Shariki consume animals that have not only died of natural causes but also animals that have been killed by other animals or have died of an accidents such as falling off the cliff. Due to the lack of viable resources and alienation by the other castes, they have no choice but to eat the dead animals or animals that have died. They should be liberated and society should allow them to eat live animals as well, don't you think?
I love your idea of inter cast marages to bring the holier than thou
and the untouchables in the "table of brotherhood," it would be wonderful,
but I have been unlucky, my Bahunee maya had to leave me because
her family did not approve for she happen tobe from a higher religious
order and I was not, I was simply a Bhotya. But I still believe only
love can heal the broken wounds and pulldown the racial and
cast divides may it be maya priti ko or jati bhati ko,
for there is no wall that enough love can not bring down, for there
is no gulf that enough love can not bridge, for there is no ocean that
enough love can cross.
tamang
Anil Tuladhar wrote:
> I have been a victim of this caste system so I know very well what I am
> talking about.
>
> : Temples in Kathmandu post signs that say "Only Hindus are allowed".
>
> Should not that read 'Only Nepalis are allowed' if they are afraid with
> Kuireys knowing our religious secrets? Can someone let us whether
> 'Hare-rama' group can enter Pashupatinath Temple?
>
To say only Nepali would be unfair to Indian Hindus after all highpriest is an India, not a Nepali. I asked once Hare Rama hare Krishna
follower about this, but I did not get the straight answer, but this is what he
told me: Rama and Krishan they follow not Pashupati. so it doesn't matter even
if we are not permitted. But I think they will not be allowed because
tobe a Hindu you have tobe born into it. Ideally, it would nice if the sign read:
Every is one Welcome. ..
I don't think the guard checks everyone. I know many cases where Japanese,
Malaysian even some asian looking Kuireys have passed through guards at Pashupati.
I have mistakenly gone there with Chhala ko peti (leather belt) which was not allowed. so
I don't think only Hindu policy is strictly enforced. What is surprising that Depak Gyawali
wrote a piece in Himal in 1996 that a Bahun was stoppedat the gate because he had lighter
skin, and he was taller than average Nepali. But when he showed his janai the guard didn't
believe him and told him that anyone can buy janai now days and about the language the
guard told him that Peace corps volunteer can speaks better Nepali than most Nepali.
Can you imagine that you feel if you live only 10 minutes from the temple or
or you have traveled days to come to pay homage to pashupati and told you can not go.
I think Sarkis will make great priest for they have so much humility, and they have no guile in their hearts.
tamang
Ashutosh Tiwari wrote:
tamang <tam...@pacbell.net> writes:
>True, by trade Sarkis are Vaishayas but they still confined to the world
>of Sudras, the untouchable. The contribution of the so called
>untouchables
>are indispensable in our society yet they are hardly appreciated much
>less respected in the Hindu caste hierarchy.
The issue of untouchability operates on many levels in Nepal.
For example, Kathmandu's culturally rich Newars have their
own "paani chal.nay" and "paani na.chal.nay" jaat, their
own uccha jaat and tallo jaat. A friend of mine, Chitrakar
got married to a Bajracharya, and one of their families
never welcomed back the offending progeny. To an outsider,
their marriage might look like a Newar getting married to
Newar. But from the point of view of caste-hierarchies
WITHIN the Newar society, a Chitrakar is never "equal"
to Bajracharya.
Ture, Tamangs, too have loosly defined thars that consider higher than other thars. For example Younjon, Waiba or Moktan are said to be alli thulo..
We may like or dislike such fact; but it exists
nonetheless. My point is here is that I agree with Gyanesworji
in that Bahuns (at least, modern-day Kathmandu ka bahuns)
have cleverly shed their caste-rigidity to be your
upwardly-mobile 'westernized' secular professional.
I am amused that in America, at least, our young
bahun professionals can talk eloquently, over steak
and raksi, about
the atrocities of the caste system with his liberal
White friends, while one day quietly going back
home to get married to a nice bahun woman that his
parents have selected for him. And guess what,
his wedding takes place with pukka, pure Hindu
rituals that last for 4 days. Ah, the bahuns,
more than any other ethnic groups in Nepal,
are clever when it comes to adaptng to both
the Nepal and to places outside Nepal.
Very true, recently my Bahun friend who had renounced everything of bahunism went backand quitly got married to a girl whom his parents have arranged. External pressure of the society is still stonger than internal demands. What is surprising is that educated Bahuns
are speaking againt the pervesive cast system. The following Depak Gyawali wrote:
- If religion is about morality and justice, they are told, how is it
that you have the inequality of a cast system that is exclusive to the
point of having bred itself practically into recist segregration? How is
it that you adhere to a social order which preordains second even sun-human
third class status to a vast majority of our brethern? How is it that you
do not allow anyone to convert into your faith? If you are the repository
of the universal truth and correct lifestyle, why do you not invite me
to partake of it?
RDAHAL
> Namaskar! First of all, I am not the one who brought this issue in
>social culture. Mr. Bhesh Bhandari was the one who introduced this issue.
>Secondly, you said Manusmriti had already been cremated? I wonder how
> you cremated the Manusmriti? You probably must be very high Class
>Brahmin therefore you do not care about manusmriti. However,in reality,
>munusmriti still alive in the Indian Subcontinent.
>
>Let me inform you that the Hindu caste system is created in accordance
>with Manusmriti.Our present hierarchy social system was crated
>more thatn
>3000 years ago when nomadic groups migrated to India from the Indus valley
>(north) about 1500 BC, the priests law maker created our present caste
>system in India.Brahmans head of caste next in order of rank were the
>warrior, the Kshatriaya.Third came the Vaisyas, the farmers and
>merchants.
>The fourth of the original castes was Sudra, the laborers, born to be
>servants to the other three castes specially the Brahman. But now a dyas
>Sudras are untouchables. The Sudras were the Dravidians, the oboriginal
>inhabitants of India,to whose ranks from time to time were added the
>pariahas or outcasts, people expelled for religous or social sins from the
>classes into whihc they had been born, Thus crated by the priests, the
>caste systme was made a part of Hindu religious law, rendered secure by
>the claim of divine revelation.The caste systme has been perpetuat
>by
>the Hidu ideas of samsara(reincarnation) and Karma.
>
>I admire your idea but we still have to face the fact.
>Jay Nepal
>with regard
>Dig B. Tamang
Tamangji namaste,
I agree with your assessment of the creation of the varna system except on some
minor points.
I said Manu smriti is dead and cremated and it is true and this is why.If you
read the Manusmriti you would realize that more than 95% of what he wrote is
either inapplicable or not practiced in this day and age in Nepal.
For example in chapter one he writes about the creation of the universe, time,
ages, social classes and the importance of the priest class.
In chapter two he goes on to desire, rituals, name giving,vedic study, student
life, chants,respect and genarally about student life.
let me quote"Acting out of desire is not approvedof, but here on earth there is
no such thing as no desire....Dersire is the very root of the conception of a
definite intention..."
"The transformative rituals for the bodies of the Dvija, beginning with the
rite of the infusion(of semen) which purify them here on earth and after death,
should be performed with excellent Vedic rites." These rites include
rites for making love, birth, hair cutting after one year,, study of vedas,
vows, fire offering ,
sacrifices.Tell me how many people do these rites?
Quote"The names of womyn should be easy to pronounce,not harsh,of patent
meaning...end in a vowel, and contain a word for blessing."
Quote"Chaste student of the Veda should wear skin of a black antelope,
gazelle,and male goat, and hemp, linen and wool in descending order of
preference."
Quote"A priest's staff should be made of wood-apple: a ruler's, of banyan and
acacia and a commoner's, of palm leaf and fig."
Quote"Janai of a priest should be of cotton; a ruler's,of hemp and a commoner,
of wool."
Quote"A priest should wash with the root of the thumb or root of the little
finger or tips of the fingers."
Quote"A Dvija(bahun, chhetri and vaisa)who has been initiated should put fuel
on the fire, go begging, and sleep on the ground and do what is good for the
guru until his home coming"
He also goes on about how to greet others about seniority.
Quote" A person who has faithmay receive good learning even from a man who is
lower, the ultimate law even from a amn of the lowest varna."
Quote"Name of a servant should be connected with service and should breed
disgust, name of a commoner should have a word for property, of a ruler
strength and of a priest auspiciousness."
Chapter 3
Quote"A man avoid marrying into a family that has abandoned rites, does not
have male children, does not chant Veda, family with hairy bodies, piles, TB,
weak digestion, epilepsy, leprosy."
Quote'A man should not marry a girl with redhead or has an extra limb or has no
body hair or has too much body hair or talks too much or is sallow(complexion,
or is named after constellation, a tree,a river or has a low caste name,or
named after a mountain, a bird, asnake,or has a menial and frightening name."
Quote"Only a servant woman can be a wife of a servant,servant womwn and one of
his own class can be the wife of a commoner,a servant woman and a commoner
woman and one of his own class can be the wife of a ruler; and these three and
one of his own class for a priest."
He goes on to describe the 8 types of marriages.
Quote"No learned father should take a bride-price for his daughter(seems there
was reverse dowry system at that time)."
Then he goes on to how to treat guests.
At ceremony for the dead he forbids to feed a student, a ascetic with matted
hair, a weakling, a gambler, doctors, priests who attend on idols, people who
sell meat, meniall servant, a usurer, anyone with with mangled fingernails or
discolored teeth,Tb patient, a herdsman, a bard, one-eyed man,a man whose
wife's lover stays in his house,a man who teaches the Veda for pay,son of an
adulterous woman,one who has shed semen in violation of his vow,husband of a
servant woman,a mad man,a false witness, anyone who argues with his father,a
house builder, a messanger, a falconer,a trainer of elephants, oxen, horses, or
camels, an astrologer, a breeder of birds,tree-planter,a man who keeps sporting
dogs, rapists, an impotent man,a man who keeps sheep or buffaloes,a man who
carries dead bodies, a deceiver , a seller of spices, an oil vendor,a drunk,a
man who makes bow and arrow,a man who marries his brother,s widow,a man who
makes a living of servants etc
Chapter 4 deals with householder's duties.
Chapter 5 deals withpollution and purification including meat eating.
Chapter 6 deals with sanyas.
chapter 7 deals with duties of a king
Chapter 8 deals with law of the kingdom and punishments.
Chapter 9 deals with womyn and further on punishment.
Chapter 10 deals with the social classes.
Quote" The Dvijas should study the Vedas but among them only the priestand not
the other two, should proclaim it."
Quote"The priest is the lord of the other classes because he is pre-eminent,
because he best by nature, he maintains the restraints, and because of the
pre-eminence of his transformative rituals."
Quote"The priest, the ruler, the commoner are the three Djivas(twice born)bit
the fourth, the servant, has only one birth, and there is no fifth."
Quote" there is to be no recitation in a village in which there is a corpse, in
the vicinity of a servant(Shudra), when there is wailing, or in a crowd of
people.'
I am tired but will quote more from Manusmriti to show that the times are
different that Manu is dead and cremated.
Namaste
RDahal
All the quotes are from the book " Laws of Manu" translated by Wendy Doniger
O'Flaherty.She actually uses the word servant.
>Sudras are untouchables. The Sudras were the Dravidians, the oboriginal
>inhabitants of India,to whose ra
I disagree. Shudras are not untouchables."Untouchables" are those who fall
beyond the caste system.Reddys and Kammas of Andhra pradesh,India are"
shudras", likewise Yadavs of Bihar and UP are "shudras"
Namaste
RDahal.
"
RDAHAL
>Our day-to-day kaam garne Civil Code, called the
>Muluki Ain, though modified time and again, shows many, what would
>now be considered, biases that have their origins in Manu Smriti.
>
>To be sure, Nepal is not a LEGALLY Hindu country in the sense
>that Afganistan with its Talibans
>now is a LEGALLY Islamic country.
>Nontheless, since much of Hindu jurisprudence is alive in our
>laws and regulations (for details, please see: "Muluki Ain: Ek
>Tippani" by Gaiendra Bdr. Shrestha, Pairawi Prakashan), and since much
>of that jurisprudence derives its legitimacy from Manu Smriti,
>it's fair to say that Manu Smriti is not yet "dead" in Nepal.
>
>namaste
>ashu
>
>
>
>
>
>
Namaste,
Your point is well taken.But when caste discrimination is made illegal the
central concept of Manussmriti (that is superiority of the priestly class over
others)becomes mute and non-applicable in the Nepalese legal system.If you read
the whole Manusmriti, you would realize how little is incorporated in the
Mulki-ain notwithstanding Mr. Shrestha's commentary on the subject.
Of course, on the society as a whole there is still a vestigial influence of
the Manusmriti but that too is dying.
I have to take issue with your comment in another posting about the
"cleverness" of the bahuns when they change or become westernized.I believe
that you used the word" clever" in a derogatory way which is not
justifiable.Which society is not changing?Aren't the Newars, Gurungs, Sherpas
and others changing?Why are Bahuns only the clever ones?Is the change
bad?Bahuns are criticized when they remains orthodox and they are 'clever' when
they change.When others change it is called being progressive but when Bahuns
change, it is because of some malicious vested interest!! Or is it because
Bahun bashing is politically correct?
My thoughts.
Namaste
Rdahal
RDAHAL
>and Vaisyas, being merchants( present day Donald Trumps in the american
>: context) be ranked higher than the Brahmins.
>: Aside from being priests, after all the brahmins
>: very livlihood depended on donations and charity from Kshatriyas and
>Vaisyas,
>: or else they probably would have
There is also caste system among nations.When a low-caste countries like India
and pakistan explode nuclear weapons, high caste countries like US and others
get mad.Just wait to see the reaction of the high caste countries when
"untouchable" countries like Iran and Iraq explode theirs!!!!!!!!
In a lighter vein.
RDahal
Ashutosh Tiwari
>Namaste,
>Your point is well taken.But when caste discrimination is made illegal the
>central concept of Manussmriti (that is superiority of the priestly class over
>others)becomes mute and non-applicable in the Nepalese legal system.If you read
>the whole Manusmriti, you would realize how little is incorporated in the
>Mulki-ain notwithstanding Mr. Shrestha's commentary on the subject.
>Of course, on the society as a whole there is still a vestigial influence of
>the Manusmriti but that too is dying.
Dahalji, you seem to have read ONLY Manu Smriti and NOT the
Muluki ain and its attandant commentaries. Besides, for a text
you declare "dead", it's interesting that you have to actually
read it, thereby make it come 'alive' for you, and make
your further points. :-)
On one level, you are right, of course; Nepali Hindus don't sit
around, reading Manu Smriti in their free time, and modifying
their conduct according to it. In this
sense, of course, Manu Smriti might still "carry a vestigial
influence" as you say.
But your assertion is bolder than that. You say that MS "is dead
and cremated". Well, may be for you, but not for many others
in Nepal who have to live by the Muluki Ain which has its
ORIGINS in part to Manu Smriti. If anyone is to understand
how Nepali CUSTOMARY laws got to be how and what they are today,
that person can't afford NOT to read Manu Smriti. There is a
CONTINUUM in Nepali legal history, whereby we can trace
the origins of many of our CUSTOMARY laws in their present
forms to Manu Smriti.
Sure, the Muluki Ain of today is much more progressive on the
whole than the one promulgated in 1910 Bikram Sambat LARGELY
on the basis of Manu Smriti, just like, to
draw an analogy, today's "Laws of War" (what with The Hague
Convention and the Geneva Conventions) are more progressive
than the medieval codes of chivalry employed when Henry the
Fifth fought the Battle of Agincourt.
But as any student of war knows, just because we have the Hague
Conventions, Geneva
Conventions and the International Committee of Red Cross
today, that does NOT mean medieval codes of chivalry
are irrelevant and dead and cremated in any absolute forms.
>I have to take issue with your comment in another posting about the
>"cleverness" of the bahuns when they change or become westernized.I believe
>that you used the word" clever" in a derogatory way which is not
>justifiable.
Derogatory? More like ironic self-mocking and self-deprecation.
After all, don't forget that I too am a pukka bahun, or so
my grandfather tells me.
I have no problem doing my shtick, and making fun of myself
in front of others . . . because, hey, we bahuns need not take
ourselves seriously. In fact, the more we revel in our collective
contradictions and inconsistencies and STILL maintain our sense of
humor about them, the more human we shall be. That's all.
>Which society is not changing?Aren't the Newars, Gurungs, Sherpas
>and others changing?Why are Bahuns only the clever ones?Is the change
>bad?Bahuns are criticized when they remains orthodox and they are 'clever' when
>they change.When others change it is called being progressive but when Bahuns
>change, it is because of some malicious vested interest!! Or is it because
>Bahun bashing is politically correct?
You are blowing things way out of proportions. See above.
oohi
ashu
Dig Tamang
>>Brahmans head of caste next in order of rank were the
>>warrior, the Kshatriaya.Third came the Vaisyas, the farmers and merchants.
>>The fourth of the original castes was Sudra, the laborers, born to be
>>servants to the other three castes specially the Brahman. But n
>
>
>Since you seem to know a lot about Manusmriti
>could you enlighten us on the following.
>Shouldn't Kshatriyas being Kings and rulers,
>context) be ranked higher than the Brahmins.
>Aside from being priests, after all the brahmins
>very livlihood depended on donations and charity from Kshatriyas and Vaisyas,
>
>Thank you.
>
>DS
Mr. DS, whoever,
I am not a pundit of Manusmriti. These documents or Hindu rule of
law was created by the Priests more than 3000 years ago in the Indian
subcontinent which still exist. If you're talking about the Kingship in
those days,the king was inferior than the priest. The king had to take
advice from the priest, but according to Hindu doctrine or Christian
doctrine, the kings had divine right to rule its subjects.
Divine right to kings ancient doctrine that sovereigns are representative
of God derive their duty to rule directly from the God.
If Donald Trump were born in the Manusmriti world, he would not be Donald
Trump. People can accomplish whatever they want to only in a free country
like United States of America. As long as you earn your fortune
adequately you got nothing to be afraid of.
Dig Tamang
tamang
Dahmoines wrote:
> Mr. Tamang,
>
> Since you seem to know a lot about Manusmriti
> could you enlighten us on the following.
> Shouldn't Kshatriyas being Kings and rulers,
> and Vaisyas, being merchants( present day Donald Trumps in the american
> context) be ranked higher than the Brahmins.
Donald Trumps is a Sharki as far as I am concern.
> Aside from being priests, after all the brahmins
> very livlihood depended on donations and charity from Kshatriyas and Vaisyas,
> or else they probably would have starved to death.
>
> Thank you.
>
> DS
I think its the other way around, Bahuns never starve to death, its the Vaishyas and Sudras who do.
"Bless are the meek for they shall inherit the kingdom of god."
Ashutosh Tiwari
>I think its the other way around, Bahuns never starve to death,
>its the Vaishyas and Sudras who do.
Not true at all. Famines, alas, are NOT caste-sensitive at all.
nuk...@geocities.com
don`t miss this
Dahmoines
>: and Vaisyas, being merchants( present day Donald Trumps in the american
>: context) be ranked higher than the Brahmins.
>: very livlihood depended on donations and charity from Kshatriyas and
>Vaisyas,
>: or else they probably would have starved to death.
seshadri replied:
>This would be true in a materialistic society
>such as our modern ones, but the ancients had
>different value systems. The brahmins were the
>learned ones, both in the earthly knowledge
>such as mathematics and linguistics, and
>spiritual knowledge. Hence their status and
>prestige. As nothing other than money and
>power is worshipped today, if we were to
>organize a caste system today, you are right,
>your scheme would be the one that would win.
>But such was not the case in ancient India
>or Nepal.
>
>In a few places, even in the modern society,
>men of knowledge are honored, even though
>they will starve to death if the university
>does not pay them. So even modern society is
>not completely materialistic.
It is certainly a noble thought to be learned, respected but poor. But what
good is your knowledge, prestige if you can't support yourself and your family
and have to beg for charity. Why is it wrong to take up a profession to support
yourself and your family, instead of relying on others' good-will and charity.
Even in the modern era , I guess all great poets, artists have been poor. But
how many of them do you think have been famous and honored while they were
living. Usually the value of their" masterpieces" is only "recognised" years
after their death. After all, people would not be paying obscene amounts of
money for works of an artist, for example like Van Gogh, if he were alive and
churning out more of his "masterpieces" on a daily basis, and hawking them on
the streets to eek out a living.
It certainly would have damaged and blown apart the image of the "noble"
artist.
In the same tone, the" nobleness" of the brahmins pathway could have been
realised only by death and extinction of their kind, not while they are alive
and kicking and practicing every ruse in the books, for charitable donations
from others in order to survive.
By asking mere mortals to live the life of a saint and by ignoring the"
materialistic" nature of human society, the manusmriti was a prescription for
social hypocrisy, and failure.
Whatever else its shortcomings, the modern "materialistic" society has done
away with this doulble-standard.
Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
DS
Raghu Seshadri
:
:It is certainly a noble thought to be learned, respected but poor. But what
:good is your knowledge, prestige if you can't support yourself and your family
:and have to beg for charity. Why is it wrong to take up a profession to support
:yourself and your family, instead of relying on others' good-will and charity.
I didn't say there was anything wrong. I was only
explaining how it was different in those days.
The old idea was that money corrupts, that love
of money is a never-ending thing. Therefore the
brahmins were asked to be poor and high-minded,
to concentrate on study; in return society
was obligated to give them minimum sustenance,
and honor. As long as the system worked, the
remuneration that the brahmin received, though
slim, was not that different from a professional
income in kind.
Think of it as division of power. The kings had
state power, but had to give due respect to the
brahmin. The brahmin had prestige and honor but
no money power. The vaishya had money power, and
attendant power and prestige, but no state or
military power.
: Even in the modern era , I guess all great poets, artists have been poor. But
: how many of them do you think have been famous and honored while they were
: living. Usually the value of their" masterpieces" is only "recognised" years
: after their death. After all, people would not be paying obscene amounts of
: money for works of an artist, for example like Van Gogh, if he were alive and
: churning out more of his "masterpieces" on a daily basis, and hawking them on
: the streets to eek out a living.
: It certainly would have damaged and blown apart the image of the "noble"
: artist.
All true, but you are discussing something
else here.
: In the same tone, the" nobleness" of the brahmins pathway could have been
: realised only by death and extinction of their kind, not while they are alive
: and kicking and practicing every ruse in the books, for charitable donations
: from others in order to survive.
I don't get it. Why should the brahmin have to die
for people to realize their nobility ? There is
no indication that such was the case. Indeed, there is
plenty of evidence that in general they got all the
prestige and honor that they wanted.
You are right that many of them had to
depend on the charitable donations of reluctant
patrons, and that must have been humiliating.
But in general, the system worked, however
creakily.
: By asking mere mortals to live the life of a saint and by ignoring the"
: materialistic" nature of human society, the manusmriti was a prescription for
: social hypocrisy, and failure.
If durability is any indication of success,
Manu's system lasted far longer than any other
that I know of - not exactly a failure.
Manu didn't ignore the materialistic side,
there is plenty of reference to money and
remuneration and payment and fines in his rulebook -
but your charge can be laid at any idealistic notion.
If you read the history of Luther's criticism
of the medieval Church, you see how much
money corrupts priesthood, and how much a limit
to their greed has to be set if you want a
healthy religion.
: Whatever else its shortcomings, the modern "materialistic" society has done
: away with this doulble-standard.
And it has plenty of other evils that I could list.
RS
: Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
:
: DS
Dahmoines
> I am not a pundit of Manusmriti. These documents or Hindu rule of
>law was created by the Priests more than 3000 years ago in the Indian
>subcontinent which still exist. If you're talking about the Kingship in
>those days,the king was inferior than the priest. The king had to take
>advice from the priest, but according to Hindu doctrine or Christian
>doctrine, the kings had divine right to rule its subjects.
>Divine right to kings ancient doctrine that sovereigns are representative
>of God derive their duty to rule directly from the God.
>
>If Donald Trump were born in the Manusmriti world, he would not be Donald
>Trump. People can accomplish whatever they want to only in a free country
>like United States of America. As long as you earn your fortune
>adequately you got nothing to be afraid of.
>
>Dig Tamang
>
Thank you Mr. Tamang for your reply.
My question still stands. What is the RATIONALE for ranking the Khastriyas and
Vaisyas after the Brahmins?
Regardless of whether you are living now or in the days of Manusmriti, would
you prefer to be a king , a millionaire or a priest.
We are talking about human aspirations, and
I do not think democracy has anything to do with it.
DS
Dahmoines
>of money is a never-ending thing. Therefore the
>brahmins were asked to be poor and high-minded,
>to concentrate on study; in return society
>was obligated to give them minimum sustenance,
>and honor. As long as the system worked, the
>remuneration that the brahmin received, though
>slim, was not that different from a professional
>income in kind.
>
>Think of it as division of power. The kings had
>state power, but had to give due respect to the
>brahmin. The brahmin had prestige and honor but
>no money power. The vaishya had money power, and
>attendant power and prestige, but no state or
>military power.
I think it is hypocritical to argue that money corrupts. Being poor is not any
more" noble" than being rich. One can even make an argument that poverty
corrupts even more. Desire for a better living standard is an universal
aspiration of peoples of all times including the brahmins. And their pursuit
of social prestige, and power derived from it, is no less materialistic than
pursuit of money. The artificial delineation of castes does not get rid of this
very human characterisitic.
>: Even in the modern era , I guess all great poets, artists have been poor.
>But
>: how many of them do you think have been famous and honored while they were
>: living. Usually the value of their" masterpieces" is only "recognised"
>years
>: after their death. After all, people would not be paying obscene amounts of
>: money for works of an artist, for example like Van Gogh, if he were alive
>and
>: churning out more of his "masterpieces" on a daily basis, and hawking them
>on
>: the streets to eek out a living.
>: It certainly would have damaged and blown apart the image of the "noble"
>: artist.
>
>All true, but you are discussing something
>else here.
>
>: In the same tone, the" nobleness" of the brahmins pathway could have been
>: realised only by death and extinction of their kind, not while they are
>alive
>: and kicking and practicing every ruse in the books, for charitable
>donations
>: from others in order to survive.
>
>I don't get it. Why should the brahmin have to die
>for people to realize their nobility ?
This was ,of course, written in a lighter vein. My point is the " ideal noble
Brahmin"
of the manusmriti does not exist in real life. In real life, Brahmins are no
different than others in wanting to improve their spiritual as well as
"material" lives.
There is
>no indication that such was the case. Indeed, there is
>plenty of evidence that in general they got all the
>prestige and honor that they wanted.
>You are right that many of them had to
>depend on the charitable donations of reluctant
>patrons, and that must have been humiliating.
>But in general, the system worked, however
>creakily.
>: By asking mere mortals to live the life of a saint and by ignoring the"
>: materialistic" nature of human society, the manusmriti was a prescription
>for
>: social hypocrisy, and failure.
>
>If durability is any indication of success,
>Manu's system lasted far longer than any other
>that I know of - not exactly a failure.
But at what cost to the society as a whole?
>Manu didn't ignore the materialistic side,
>there is plenty of reference to money and
>remuneration and payment and fines in his rulebook -
>but your charge can be laid at any idealistic notion.
I agree, all idealistic notions of society are doomed to fail, unless its
materialistic nature,
is taken into account.
>If you read the history of Luther's criticism
>of the medieval Church, you see how much
>money corrupts priesthood, and how much a limit
>to their greed has to be set if you want a
>healthy religion.
>: Whatever else its shortcomings, the modern "materialistic" society has done
>: away with this doulble-standard.
>
>And it has plenty of other evils that I could list.
Agreed.
>: Just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
>:
>: DS
></PRE></HTML>
Dig Tamang
Mr. Ds,
I thank you so very much for your reply.
As a matter of fact I am poorest among the poor, but I wish I were a
scholar with no apartheid idea. My grand father and father could not even
serve for their own country (Nepali Army) for being a Tamang(Vaisyas). My
father was forced to serve in the British Army because he resented the
position of a porter offered by the Nepalese army. After his retirement he
came to Nepal and fought with Nepali Congress against Ranarchy. He never
claimed his share of power and nobody bothered to give him any credit for
what he did in the year 2007. I dont't care what you think, but no one
can hide the fact what Manusmriti did in the Indian subcontinet where
millions of people are suffering by the cause of Manusmriti. We are human
beings and everyone should be treated equally and each individuals should
be allowed to live with dignity. There should not be any social
restrictions on any one based on their enthnic background.
Dig B. Tamang
RDAHAL
>"Bless are the meek for they shall inherit the kingdom of god."
namaste,
Do you mean to say that the people shoud be meek and be oppressed and
suppressed so that they can benifit the fruits of afterlife?Should the people
remain poor to inherit the kingdom of god?wouldn't the american dream be just
the opposite of the veiwpoint that you are quoting?Didn't St.Paul
in one of his epistles ask the slaves to obey their masters thus justifying
slavery and aparthied?There are Manus in every religion
and culture.Didn't the Europian womyn in their marriage vows say "obey and
honour the
husbands."
"Oh lord, may all mankind be happy; may all of mankind be healthy; may all of
mankind experience prosperity; may none suffer.Peace, peace. peace.
My thoughts
RDahal
Raghu Seshadri
: >The old idea was that money corrupts, that love
: >of money is a never-ending thing. Therefore the
: >brahmins were asked to be poor and high-minded,
: >to concentrate on study; in return society
: >was obligated to give them minimum sustenance,
: >and honor. As long as the system worked, the
: >remuneration that the brahmin received, though
: >slim, was not that different from a professional
: >income in kind.
: >
: >Think of it as division of power. The kings had
: >state power, but had to give due respect to the
: >brahmin. The brahmin had prestige and honor but
: >no money power. The vaishya had money power, and
: >attendant power and prestige, but no state or
: >military power.
:
: I think it is hypocritical to argue that money corrupts. Being poor is not any
: more" noble" than being rich. One can even make an argument that poverty
: corrupts even more. Desire for a better living standard is an universal
: aspiration of peoples of all times including the brahmins. And their pursuit
: of social prestige, and power derived from it, is no less materialistic than
:pursuit of money. The artificial delineation of castes does not get rid of this
: very human characterisitic.
You seem to be under the impression that
I support Manu and agree with him in everything
he did. Not so :-)
I am only explaining his rationale to you.
If you have arguments with that, you should take
it up with him.
You started off by asking why the money men and
the weapons men had to defer to the priests
and the scholars in old India. I explained why.
If you think money and guns should always
rule over priesthood or knowledge or philosophy,
feel free to argue with Manu.
RS
Dig Tamang
Mr. R Dahal,
Please don't use personal matter when we discuss about social culture,
I never say, that power shoud be given to someone else for ruling.I just
mentioned whatever were written in the manusmriti, if your idea is so good
why dont't you just write simple letter to Bishwa Hindu Sang of Nepal
and ask to teach Gayaytri to all of the citizens, at least they
will know what is good thing in their life.
Om Bhuvarba Swaha!
Jay Nepal.
Dig B. Tamang
RDAHAL
>Mr. R Dahal,
>
> Please don't use personal matter when we discuss about social culture,
>I never say, that power shoud be given to someone else for ruling.I just
>mentioned whatever were written in the manusmriti, if your idea is so good
>why dont't you just write simple letter to Bishwa Hindu Sang of Nepal
>and ask to teach Gayaytri to all of the citizens, at least they
>will know what is good thing in their life.
>
>Om Bhuvarba Swaha!
>Jay Nepal.
>Dig B. Tamang
>
Tamangji namaste,
I don't think there was anything personal in my posting.I was just arguing the
validity of the message that you quoted.I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
I am sure there are thoughtful people in Nepal and Biswa Hindu Parishad to know
what is good for the society and the country and to do what is right.I am also
sure that there are in BHP who are very orthodox and would resist any change.
Time is the best healer and reformer and I believe, it will be sooner rather
than later.
Sure, let them teach the Gayatri mantra and all the mantras to all, do
bratamanda for all, let everyone go the the temples. Let them enforce strict
punishment to anyone who indulges in caste discrimination.
"Do unto to others, what you would want others to do unto you."
Namaste
RDahal
Dahmoines
Mr. Tamang wrote:
> I dont't care what you think, but no one
>can hide the fact what Manusmriti did in the Indian subcontinet where
>millions of people are suffering by the cause of Manusmriti. We are human
>beings and everyone should be treated equally and each individuals should
>be allowed to live with dignity. There should not be any social
>restrictions on any one based on their enthnic background.
I agree with you, and I do not believe in the manusmriti.
It is easy to blame one document, i.e. the manusmriti, for all the society's
ills. I wish it were that simple; then having got rid of the manusmriti, we
would have solved all our social ills. But the root of the problem lies not in
a text or document but goes deeper than that, and lies in the unwillingness of
people to recognize the rights of fellow human beings,and discriminate against
others,on the basis of caste, ethnicities, nationalities,gender, and religion.
Unfortunately, this has historically been a problem, and in many cases still
is, not only in South Asia but in other parts of the world including Europe,
Africa and America. Only with better education for all, can we hope to
eradicate this problem.
With regards,
DS