definition of totem
David Dalton
which I call totemic someone. Also I want to know if any natives
consider their totems to be deities to them, which I do.
When I get a significant sign from a member of another species I say that
I have that species as a totem species and that the totemic someone of that
species, which (the totemic someone) I denote in capitals as Species
Name, is one of my totem deities. I sometimes say that Species Name
is the totem too. Human is also one of my deities but I don't
consider Human to be a totem deity since the human species is my
species and not another species.
I define the totemic someone of a species as the smallest (in mass,
or if there is a tie in mass, in volume) someone which contains
the species (including the bodies of species members as well as
their spirits or energy bodies).
For more discussion on this see the webpage
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html
which is a subpage of my Salmon on the Thorns web page
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
.
You may call me a new ager, but I have been strongly influenced by
native pagan beliefs and legends, and I think I am similar to
the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth who I would like to learn more about.
I would also like to know more about the originator(s) of
sundance traditions, since I have done my own naked sundance/sun stare/
thorn hill climb/glowing (at night) sky blue rose vision almost
eleven years (one sunspot cycle) ago and hope that I am nearing the
end of seven years of low/wilderness years.
But I am non-native and have had more celtic influences, and I guess
I could be called a new ager since I have invented some of my
belief system. But I intend to learn more of the traditions of
this land though unfortunately the Beothucks are gone from here.
But I hope to learn some from scholarly studies of the Beothuck
and from the Mi'qmaq (sp?) and from British Columbia natives,
especially the Musqueam who should own the land where I did my
naked thorn hill climb.
David
wolvbtch
what a bunch of new age garbage...
dal...@nfld.com (David Dalton) wrote in message news:<aauu9f$o9g$1...@hathaway.nfld.com>...
Jim Burnes
> You may call me a new ager, but I have been strongly influenced by
> native pagan beliefs and legends, and I think I am similar to
> the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth who I would like to learn more about.
> I would also like to know more about the originator(s) of
> sundance traditions, since I have done my own naked sundance/sun stare/
> thorn hill climb/glowing (at night) sky blue rose vision almost
> eleven years (one sunspot cycle) ago and hope that I am nearing the
> end of seven years of low/wilderness years.
> David
David,
Being that you have already done your own naked
sundance / sun stare / thorn hill climb / glowing (at night) sky blue
rose vision, I suggest you make a trek to one of the reservations in
South Dakota, report to the tribal council building and state that
your ready for their ceremony to begin.
Do this in May.
Jim Burnes
Mike
How Davie
Me have heap big totom errr totem. Have special pants just to hold me
totem. Me no worship it. It just alive by it self.
Jennifergiggle
(nose laugh)
Bright Thunder
wolvbtch wrote:
> oh my!!!!!!!
> what a bunch of new age garbage...
To be sure!!!!
JBT
Ellen Mill
Jim Burnes <turtl...@cs.com> wrote:
>
> David,
>
> Being that you have already done your own naked
>sundance / sun stare / thorn hill climb / glowing (at night) sky blue
>rose vision, I suggest you make a trek to one of the reservations in
>South Dakota, report to the tribal council building and state that
>your ready for their ceremony to begin.
>
> Do this in May.
>
> Jim Burnes
Hey, Jim ...
Now that's just not NICE. *chortle*
Ellen
Ellen Mill
Bright Thunder <clo...@softcom.net> wrote:
>
>
>wolvbtch wrote:
>
>> oh my!!!!!!!
>> what a bunch of new age garbage...
>
>To be sure!!!!
>
> JBT
You all are a lot more articulate than me; my first reaction was just
... "Wow". *grin*
Ellen
Morfydd
:-D
Mop
"Ellen Mill" <o...@efn.org> wrote in message
news:ab0qda$n...@garcia.efn.org...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 19/02/2002
Carmen
Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
Gee I'd really like to have a look at that some time Mike,
can you put up a pic on usenet so we can all examine it for authenticity ?
Carmen
wolvbtch
"Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab1k74$e4q$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > dal...@nfld.com (David Dalton) wrote in message
> news:<aauu9f$o9g$1...@hathaway.nfld.com>...
snipped
Mike
Hi Carmen
Can't find a cameria with big lens when I do I'll send ya one.
Mikey
and friend
Carmen
> > > totem. Me no worship it. It just alive by it self.
> >
> > Gee I'd really like to have a look at that some time Mike,
> > can you put up a pic on usenet so we can all examine it for authenticity
?
> >
> > Carmen
>
> Hi Carmen
>
> Can't find a cameria with big lens when I do I'll send ya >one.
Oh good I shall look forward to that
and treasure it
:)
But anyway on a serious note :-
I was reading the may/June edition of my favourite magazine this morning
go here for pic of last month's glossy cover:-
http://www.soil-health.org.nz/index.htm
Page 7 of this months edition is an article concerning
Wild Rice
'manoomin'
the article reads that 2 Claifornian companies currently have "patents on
hybrid strains and are working on male sterility in the wild
rice......irreversably alter the natural wild rice strains"
At the bottom of the article is a reference to
"White Earth Land recovery Project"
I stopped reading and stared off into space,
well actually, to tell the truth I stared off onto the wall at the other
side of the room, and I wondered to myself
"White Earth ? ..... that's Mike "
So just did a websearch and found this
http://www.welrp.org/index.html
So, it seems you guys are everywhere,
including my favourite magazine
Carmen
> Mikey
> and friend
Carmen
wolvbtch <wolv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:efb755ea.02050...@posting.google.com...
> yeah...we could put it up with the rest of those pictures sent around, eh?
Yeah we women can all comment on it
and titter among ourselves, eh?
Carmen
the website at the bottom of the afore mentioned article is here :-
www.grain.org
I depart this newsgroup
and find y'all are now infiltrating my magazines
LOL
Carmen
Carmen <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ab2a0n$jgh$1...@news.wave.co.nz...
Mike
Hi Carmen
White Earth is my wifes reservation. I do write for them sometimes,
and The White Earth Land Recovery Project is one of the best things
going up there right now.
Seems that if some have their way you won't be able to just gather
wild food anymore. I do love wild rice. And yes we are everywhere.
Mike
wolvbtch
i don't think mike is white earth...that was donna snyder's claim to fame...
but thanks for the link....
i have been looking for a good place for my maple products and wild rice....
they are some of the few things i miss since living here in the desert...
"Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab2a0n$jgh$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
wolvbtch
carmen!!!
you did give me a good laugh this morning...i needed it, thank you....
"Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab2a2j$jk5$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
Mike
> carmen..
> i don't think mike is white earth...that was donna snyder's claim to fame...
> but thanks for the link....
> i have been looking for a good place for my maple products and wild rice....
> they are some of the few things i miss since living here in the desert...
>
>
I'm from AZ, and an Apache.
Now those are two things I love. Well everyone knows I like to eat,
but maple candy homemade god I'm in heaven. It takes so much just to
make it, but well worth the time. Now wild rice is great fried,
stuffed, baked, and just about anyway you can cook it.
Mike
> "Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<ab2a0n$jgh$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> > Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
I snipped it to make room
Mike
> wolvbtch <wolv...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:efb755ea.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > yeah...we could put it up with the rest of those pictures sent around, eh?
>
> Yeah we women can all comment on it
> and titter among ourselves, eh?
>
I let my ass over run my mouth while trying to be funny, and no you
can't have a picture of that too. hehehe
Mike
John Blahna
> I'm from AZ, and an Apache.
> Now those are two things I love. Well everyone knows I like to eat,
> but maple candy homemade god I'm in heaven. It takes so much just to
> make it, but well worth the time.
it's pretty available up here.
>Now wild rice is great fried,
> stuffed, baked, and just about anyway you can cook it.
and that's the catch. folks up here are wondering how safe our natural crop
will be when the hybridized stuff comes out.
john
Mike
Hi John
I wish it was down here. Talked to my sister in law and she's going to
send me some. hard to wait.
I don't know much about rice like I do corn, but I think it would be
about the same. It's getting harder and harder to find our origional
corn. If any field is near by the wind blows the pollen to your field,
plus bee's ect..
Mike
Carmen
> Hi Carmen
>
> White Earth is my wifes reservation.
I recalled a connection to do with when you used to used singer sewing
machines there.
Been thinking of getting one of them lately
>I do write for them sometimes,
> and The White Earth Land Recovery Project is one of the best things
> going up there right now.
> Seems that if some have their way you won't be able to just gather
> wild food anymore. I do love wild rice.
Have never tried it, I think that is the big plan
so we the people wont be able to gather wild food,
a price on everything
>And yes we are everywhere.
I was walking past a library shelf the other day and as I breezed past, a
book stood out, something about a stone canoe by Harvey Ardin. Canoes are
good, so I got it out haven't started reading it yet but glossed thru it. I
left there and went to a shopping mall over the road, was hurrying past a
bookshop, there was a sales table outside which I glanced at, and there on
top of the huge pile of books was a book called "skins". I thought to
myself
"this is a sign !!!!"
:-D
Well I picked it up and flicked thru, it appeared to be an anthology of
writings by Native Americans, I didn't buy it.
I went and purchased my other fave magazine called "mana"
open it up and there is an article about Native American Art touring NZ and
a pic of a large cloak which is woven by a woman from the (um...spelling ?)
Clinghett people, her husband is a carver, had a picture of him.
Hey ! Maybe that is my purpose here, I finally have one.
I could be like your on the spot reporter, or something,
of NA activities throughout NZ, although likely you already got lots of 'em.
:-D
carmen
> Mike
Carmen
:)
Concerning Mike's Totem I was going to say we could
up-raise it and a-praise it
but though better not to, that would be taking it too far.
I'm pleased i didn't say that in the end
coz among other things,
it might have raised some eyebrows
:)
Carmen
Carmen
> carmen..
> i don't think mike is white earth...that was donna snyder's claim to
fame...
I saw that but didn't take a lot of notice, Donna is her own brand of wild
rice, very interesting and amusing but maybe just a little too wild for me
to keep up with
:)
> but thanks for the link....
> i have been looking for a good place for my maple products and wild
rice....
> they are some of the few things i miss since living here in the desert...
Maple syrup, pancakes and whipped cream !
I don't think I would like the desert, I lived in the desert of australia,
it had red sand, lots of Aborigine people, spinifex grass, very tall ant
hills, snakes, red back spiders, the people were very tough.
Carmen
Carmen
news:<ab2a2j$jk5$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> > wolvbtch <wolv...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:efb755ea.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > > yeah...we could put it up with the rest of those pictures sent around,
eh?
> >
> > Yeah we women can all comment on it
> > and titter among ourselves, eh?
> >
> > Ok Carmen
>
> I let my ass over run my mouth while trying to be funny,
Don't worry, happens to me all the time
>and no you
> can't have a picture of that too. hehehe
Phew I'm relieved
Carmen
> Mike
>
Mike
> Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Hi Carmen
> >
> > White Earth is my wifes reservation.
>
> I recalled a connection to do with when you used to used singer sewing
> machines there.
> Been thinking of getting one of them lately
>
They are great if you get the old peddle type. That's what we were
talking about before.
> >I do write for them sometimes,
> > and The White Earth Land Recovery Project is one of the best things
> > going up there right now.
> > Seems that if some have their way you won't be able to just gather
> > wild food anymore. I do love wild rice.
>
> Have never tried it, I think that is the big plan
> so we the people wont be able to gather wild food,
> a price on everything
>
That's the whole idea.
> >And yes we are everywhere.
>
> I was walking past a library shelf the other day and as I breezed past, a
> book stood out, something about a stone canoe by Harvey Ardin. Canoes are
> good, so I got it out haven't started reading it yet but glossed thru it. I
> left there and went to a shopping mall over the road, was hurrying past a
> bookshop, there was a sales table outside which I glanced at, and there on
> top of the huge pile of books was a book called "skins". I thought to
> myself
> "this is a sign !!!!"
> :-D
> Well I picked it up and flicked thru, it appeared to be an anthology of
> writings by Native Americans, I didn't buy it.
>
> I went and purchased my other fave magazine called "mana"
> open it up and there is an article about Native American Art touring NZ and
> a pic of a large cloak which is woven by a woman from the (um...spelling ?)
> Clinghett people, her husband is a carver, had a picture of him.
>
Maybe something was trying to tell you to read up.
> Hey ! Maybe that is my purpose here, I finally have one.
> I could be like your on the spot reporter, or something,
> of NA activities throughout NZ, although likely you already got lots of 'em.
> :-D
> carmen
>
>
As our people are growing stronger being Indian is the in thing to do.
I know there is going to be a tour sometime next year in England and
then in Scottland. Who knows maybe they will have one in your neck of
the woods.
I'm too old for that kind of thing anymore I'd rather sit back with a
fishing rod and watch the birds, and waves.
Mike
Jennifergiggle
John Blahna wrote:
Hi John,
I would like to clarify that genetically engineered isn't hybridized.
Hybridized is from without of the plant and genetically engineered and altered
is from withing the DNA. DNA is inside the nucleus of the cell and is
protected naturally by a membrane. Generally the integrity is protected. One
of the unpleasant misfortunes regarding G.E. is that it intentionally and
freely invades the plasma membrane which contains the DNA and alters it. :(
Jen
p.s. hybriding doesn't change the DNA of a plant WITH other compounds that
nature would've prevented from crossing over that membrane.
wolvbtch
>
> I saw that but didn't take a lot of notice, Donna is her own brand of wild
> rice, very interesting and amusing but maybe just a little too wild for me
> to keep up with
> :)
eyah on that one!!! and excellent way of putting it...
> Maple syrup, pancakes and whipped cream !
>
> I don't think I would like the desert, I lived in the desert of australia,
> it had red sand, lots of Aborigine people, spinifex grass, very tall ant
> hills, snakes, red back spiders, the people were very tough.
>
> Carmen
we have rattlesnakes, sidewinders, green mohave snakes, cacti, black
widow spiders and brown recluse spiders...little water, lots of
sand...
we have red ants, "aborigine" people, lol...of which i am one, and
people have to be tough to even survive the heat...
however, we do not have high property taxes, drive by shootings,
overcrowding, road rage, gangs, (yet)...come to think of it, city
people must have to be very tough, too....
wolvbtch
i am in arizona, too...just up the way from you....
MikePu...@msn.com (Mike) wrote in message news:<5e0d76a8.0205...@posting.google.com>...
John Blahna
> I don't know much about rice like I do corn, but I think it would be
> about the same.
I have plenty of wild rice recipies if you have some idea of what you'd like
to make it into I may be able to help.
It's getting harder and harder to find our origional
> corn.
I can't say this definitively but I don't think our native wild rice is
going away. It just seems to be losing the race with paddy grown
versions...which are not the same.
John Blahna
"Jennifergiggle" <theg...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3CD69514...@bigfoot.com...
> I would like to clarify that genetically engineered isn't hybridized.
> Hybridized is from without of the plant and genetically engineered and
altered
> is from withing the DNA.
thank you for the clarification. I know I heard this was DNA modification
and I mistook it for hybridizing. I'm guessing the paddy grown rice from
California etc. is indeed hybridized...a cross between real wild rice and
some other sort. Do you know?
> One
> of the unpleasant misfortunes regarding G.E. is that it intentionally and
> freely invades the plasma membrane which contains the DNA and alters it.
:(
In this particular case there are lots of desireable characteristics of
natural wild rice (which is why for some it's sorta "free for the taking")
Do you know if the DNA alteration in this case will change any of those
characteristics?
johnmohdom (not mr. wizard 80)
Jennifergiggle
While I am not Mz. Wizard either there are some things I have learned about
GE. Inserting below
John Blahna wrote:
> "Jennifergiggle" <theg...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3CD69514...@bigfoot.com...
>
> > I would like to clarify that genetically engineered isn't hybridized.
> > Hybridized is from without of the plant and genetically engineered and
> altered
> > is from withing the DNA.
>
> thank you for the clarification. I know I heard this was DNA modification
> and I mistook it for hybridizing. I'm guessing the paddy grown rice from
> California etc. is indeed hybridized...a cross between real wild rice and
> some other sort. Do you know?
No I am not sure but, paddy grown hybrid or not, if its got GE it will indeed
hybrid itself along with non-GE in the future, (creating hybrids of GE and non
is indeed GE.)
>
>
> > One
> > of the unpleasant misfortunes regarding G.E. is that it intentionally and
> > freely invades the plasma membrane which contains the DNA and alters it.
> :(
>
> In this particular case there are lots of desireable characteristics of
> natural wild rice (which is why for some it's sorta "free for the taking")
> Do you know if the DNA alteration in this case will change any of those
> characteristics?
>
Thing that is the worst I think isn't the qualities that are chosen but, the
barrier crossing charicteristics and ability of the things that are used to
'host' those traits to grow. The chosen traits are 'grown and then harvested
from' viruses, bacteria, cancers and tumors. Those are chosen to be hosts
because they have rapid growth rate among other things. So, the host's traits
cross the barrier into the genetic traits which are then inserted into the DNA
of whatever may be. Sticky situation and if I wasn't so lazy I'd dig up some
records I have laying around where scientists warned against this with proof in
the 70's.
Jen
Mike
Hi John
The last time I was up at White Earth my Mother in law made some
stuffed bell pepers with wild rice, some kind of mushroom, and elk
meat. It was the best I ever had. I just never asked her how she
prepared the rice. I tried it with white rice, but it just didn't
taste the same. Do you fry it first or soak it what? We don't have
much rice where I'm from. Mostly corn and squash.
Mike
John Blahna
some soak it overnight. I prefer to simmer it for up to 45 minutes, then mix
it with whatever you want to before baking ( e.g. in stuffed pepper). the
key is to simmer it only until the kernels start to pop open. I almost
always simmer it in some sort of stock, especially chicken. If you are going
to use it as a side dish (no further cooking after the simmering) you may
want to go a bit longer, it can be crunchy if all of the kernels haven't
opened. ...leave it on longer and it can start to get mushy...fortunately I
have worked with it long enough to know when it's ready.
johnmohdom
John Blahna
> No I am not sure but, paddy grown hybrid or not, if its got GE it will
indeed
> hybrid itself along with non-GE in the future, (creating hybrids of GE and
non
> is indeed GE.)
doesn't that defeat the purpose of both GE and hybridizing? apparently a
key will be to keep the different types from crossing.
> Those are chosen to be hosts
> because they have rapid growth rate among other things.
so, a GE wild rice would have a different growth rate than natural? ...how
different than the natural annual cycle (and the ceremonies related).
johnmohdom
Jennifergiggle
John Blahna wrote:
John,
The traits that are desired from a non-rice are themselves brewed up and
harvested by being injected into the host, (example of a tumor for rapid
growth,) then extracted from the tumor host. The desired trait is injected into
the DNA of the rice. Its really is a guess as to which traits from the host
have crossed over into and with the desired DNA trait.
Jen
Carmen
Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> "Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<ab5lh6$eom$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> > Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > Hi Carmen
> > >
> > > White Earth is my wifes reservation.
> >
> > I recalled a connection to do with when you used to used singer sewing
> > machines there.
> > Been thinking of getting one of them lately
> >
> Hi Carmen
Hi Mikie
> They are great if you get the old peddle type. That's what we were
> talking about before.
They are still available here and sell for around $100 but the price is
going up steadily, because people are starting to collect them.
When electric sewing machines came out and the treadles became obsolete I
heard many of them were shipped to other pacific islands, like Samoa etc.
snip
> > I went and purchased my other fave magazine called "mana"
> > open it up and there is an article about Native American Art touring NZ
and
> > a pic of a large cloak which is woven by a woman from the (um...spelling
?)
> > Clinghett people, her husband is a carver, had a picture of him.
> >
> Maybe something was trying to tell you to read up.
:)
Actually some would be surprised what and how much I read.
Among other things I'm supposed to be reading up on beekeeping, organic
growing and Political principles and policy.
> > Hey ! Maybe that is my purpose here, I finally have one.
> > I could be like your on the spot reporter, or something,
> > of NA activities throughout NZ, although likely you already got lots of
'em.
> > :-D
> > carmen
> >
> >
> As our people are growing stronger being Indian is the in thing to do.
> I know there is going to be a tour sometime next year in England and
> then in Scottland. Who knows maybe they will have one in your neck of
> the woods.
Pomo Indians were out here recently at the local Marae, which is like a
Maori village. They did a little performance.
I wonder whether many of the writings, songs, poetry etc that are around
these days being written in the NA languages or is it mainly all english ?
> I'm too old for that kind of thing anymore I'd rather sit back with a
> fishing rod and watch the birds, and waves.
:)
Carmen
Carmen
According to the article as it is printed
"Two Californian companies now have patents on hybrid strains
and are working on male sterility in wild rice"
If the article is correct then it seems the aim is to
cause the male plant to be sterile,
then it will not be able to pollinate the female plant and no
longer set seed.
Well that is my understanding of what is printed,
I guess it depends how accurate their source of information is. I have been
searching the web to see whether there are any other sources which also
confirm the story but haven't found anything specific yet.
According to this website
http://www.css.orst.edu/crops/cereals/grains/wildrice.htm
wild rice cross pollinates quite readily in which case, it would likely be
susceptible to cross pollinating with hybrids and GE'd strains.
Carmen
Mike
> Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > "Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<ab5lh6$eom$1...@news.wave.co.nz>...
> > > Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > > news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > >
>
> Hi Mikie
>
> > They are great if you get the old peddle type. That's what we were
> > talking about before.
>
> They are still available here and sell for around $100 but the price is
> going up steadily, because people are starting to collect them.
>
> When electric sewing machines came out and the treadles became obsolete I
> heard many of them were shipped to other pacific islands, like Samoa etc.
Many of our reservations have them. My brother converted one from our
Aunt to use a saw blade so he could use it like a jig saw. They still
have all the parts so they can put it back together if they wanted to.
> snip
> > > I went and purchased my other fave magazine called "mana"
> > > open it up and there is an article about Native American Art touring NZ
> and
> > > a pic of a large cloak which is woven by a woman from the (um...spelling
> ?)
> > > Clinghett people, her husband is a carver, had a picture of him.
> > >
> > Maybe something was trying to tell you to read up.
>
> :)
> Actually some would be surprised what and how much I read.
>
> Among other things I'm supposed to be reading up on beekeeping, organic
> growing and Political principles and policy.
I read mostly history or bio's.
>
> > > Hey ! Maybe that is my purpose here, I finally have one.
> > > I could be like your on the spot reporter, or something,
> > > of NA activities throughout NZ, although likely you already got lots of
> 'em.
> > > :-D
> > > carmen
> > >
> > >
> > As our people are growing stronger being Indian is the in thing to do.
> > I know there is going to be a tour sometime next year in England and
> > then in Scottland. Who knows maybe they will have one in your neck of
> > the woods.
>
> Pomo Indians were out here recently at the local Marae, which is like a
> Maori village. They did a little performance.
>
> I wonder whether many of the writings, songs, poetry etc that are around
> these days being written in the NA languages or is it mainly all english ?
Yes they are still around, and going strong. I know many Nations are
teaching the languages now. It wasn't that long ago we couldn't speak
it anywhere but at home.
Mike
Carmen
> > Among other things I'm supposed to be reading up on beekeeping, organic
> > growing and Political principles and policy.
>
> I read mostly history or bio's.
bio's I assume to be biographys ?
From what I have seen on the web,
people in the US seem to be big on biographys
and especially writing their biographys.
I guess because over there to speak about oneself is encouraged and people
maybe
enjoy talking and writing about
themselves, achievements, hardships,
fame, good/bad fortunes,
brightest moments and darkest hours.
Generally Kiwis aren't big on biographys,
well not on writing them anyway.
Historically people here haven't been encouraged to talk
about themselves.
It's called a "tall Poppy" syndrome.
snip
> > > As our people are growing stronger being Indian is the in thing to do.
> > > I know there is going to be a tour sometime next year in England and
> > > then in Scottland. Who knows maybe they will have one in your neck of
> > > the woods.
> >
> > Pomo Indians were out here recently at the local Marae, which is like a
> > Maori village. They did a little performance.
> >
> > I wonder whether many of the writings, songs, poetry etc that are around
> > these days being written in the NA languages or is it mainly all english
?
>
> Yes they are still around, and going strong. I know many Nations are
> teaching the languages now. It wasn't that long ago we couldn't speak
> it anywhere but at home.
Similar with English being the main language here,
imaginative writing, song, poetry etc.,
*grows* any language.
I'll commit your interest in Bio's to memory
If I ever get around to writing one up,
I'll put you on top of my list for emailing.
Carmen
ggull
>
> bio's I assume to be biographys ?
> From what I have seen on the web,
> people in the US seem to be big on biographys
> and especially writing their biographys.
>
> I guess because over there to speak about oneself is encouraged and people
> maybe
> enjoy talking and writing about
> themselves, achievements, hardships,
> fame, good/bad fortunes,
> brightest moments and darkest hours.
>
> Generally Kiwis aren't big on biographys,
> well not on writing them anyway.
> Historically people here haven't been encouraged to talk
> about themselves.
Maybe because there's not much for a Kiwi to talk about :-) ? Not that that
ever seems to stop self-promoters.
But really, I think Mike is not talking about the "starlet tells all"
AUTObiographies (well, probably ghostwritten) or "I'm an ex-president,
ex-CEO, etc and want to cash in" autobios that appear on the best seller
lists, but biographies (whether auto or not) of genuine historical figures
or those otherwise of more than tawdry interest. For example, the recent
(bestseller) bio of John Adams, one of the US's "Founding Fathers", Mari
Sandoz's bio of Crazy Horse, or "Mankiller", about WIlma[?] Mankiller, a
Cherokee leader.
Basically, the kind of bios I imagine Mike is talking about can be used as
another way to history or socio/anthropological understanding of a culture.
To really tell a person's life, you must explicate the society and times in
which they live, and the historical events in which they are involved if
they are that kind of figure. There are plenty of biographies, I can think
of few autobios, of Native Americans, some of them historical figures and
some seemingly told more to tell about the culture through an intersting and
individualized tale (I have seen a book of short bios of NA elders, for
instance). There is a trend in historical research and writing these past
several decades of looking not just at the grand progressions of the
generals and leaders and armies, but the lives of the everyday people, and
such bios can be seen as part of that trend.
However self-serving, autobios of major recent political figures are
valuable historical documents when read with a grain of salt -- think Nixon,
Kissinger, MacNamara. [To be honest I find these ones bore me to tears, and
cannot get through them.]
Or who knows, maybe Mike does dote on Heidi Fleiss tell-alls :-).
Mike
> Mike <MikePu...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:5e0d76a8.02050...@posting.google.com...
> > "Carmen" <Carm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message snip
>
> > > Among other things I'm supposed to be reading up on beekeeping, organic
> > > growing and Political principles and policy.
> >
> > I read mostly history or bio's.
>
> bio's I assume to be biographys ?
> From what I have seen on the web,
> people in the US seem to be big on biographys
> and especially writing their biographys.
>
Hi Carmen
Most of the biographys or bios I read are of people that died long
ago, and dictated or wrote themselfs before they died. Right now it's
one by a Salish man from about 1828. Many of these books or sometimes
just pages. Most can be found with a search at a university. I have
never seen any bio writen by an Native person sold in a book store,
I'm not say there are none just never seen any and I have asked many
of them. Many are very rare one dictated by Lozen was destroyed by the
Church. There are no copies. This happened to most of them and esp..
if it was a woman.
Mike
Carmen
ggull <ggul...@SPAMrcn.com> wrote in message
news:abgk62$ld$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...snip
> > Generally Kiwis aren't big on biographys,
> > well not on writing them anyway.
> > Historically people here haven't been encouraged to talk
> > about themselves.
>
> Maybe because there's not much for a Kiwi to talk about :-) ?
More like Kiwis just don't know how to brag
and we sometimes laugh and look at each other when we see other people doing
it.
> Not that that
> ever seems to stop self-promoters.
yep
> But really, I think Mike is not talking about the "starlet tells all"
> AUTObiographies (well, probably ghostwritten) or "I'm an ex-president,
> ex-CEO, etc and want to cash in" autobios that appear on the best seller
> lists, but biographies (whether auto or not) of genuine historical figures
> or those otherwise of more than tawdry interest. For example, the recent
> (bestseller) bio of John Adams, one of the US's "Founding Fathers", Mari
> Sandoz's bio of Crazy Horse, or "Mankiller", about WIlma[?] Mankiller, a
> Cherokee leader.
Thanks for your explanation.
I daresay some of those references will come my way at some stage.
I looked up "Heidi Fleiss" to see who/what she is
apparently a "Hollywood Madam", never heard of her.
I'm shooting thru for at least a few days.
Got some things to do etc.
Noho ora mai,
Naku noa
Carmen
Carmen
> > From what I have seen on the web,
> > people in the US seem to be big on biographys
> > and especially writing their biographys.
> >
>
> Hi Carmen
>
> Most of the biographys or bios I read are of people that died long
> ago, and dictated or wrote themselfs before they died. Right now it's
> one by a Salish man from about 1828. Many of these books or sometimes
> just pages. Most can be found with a search at a university. I have
> never seen any bio writen by an Native person sold in a book store,
> I'm not say there are none just never seen any and I have asked many
> of them. Many are very rare one dictated by Lozen was destroyed by the
> Church. There are no copies. This happened to most of them and esp..
> if it was a woman.
>
> Mike
>
Thanks for your explanation Mike.
Those type are good "bios".
I read Russell Means bio
just happened to notice it on a bookshelf recently,
that was a good one, he is a captivating writer.
That's where I first saw Carter Camp's 70's photo
and discovered he is a famous person.
Well I'm shooting thru for a while.
Got some things stacking up so ng's in general aren't
as captivating at the moment.
ggull
> > > Generally Kiwis aren't big on biographys,
> > > well not on writing them anyway.
> > > Historically people here haven't been encouraged to talk
> > > about themselves.
> >
> > Maybe because there's not much for a Kiwi to talk about :-) ?
>
> More like Kiwis just don't know how to brag
> and we sometimes laugh and look at each other when we see other people
doing
> it.
Semi-seriously, I was thinking that New Zealand is less on the center stage
of world history (personally, I'd find that refreshing if I lived there),
and your politics is probably less contentious simply because there are
fewer ethnic groups and major industries, etc. And maybe y'all are nicer
folks. <enter tweak mode> Also, how much can there be to say about sheep?
<exit tweak mode>
And yes, self-promotion or self-puffery or assertiveness does seem to be a
characteristic of the majoritarian culture here in the US. I won't get into
historical roots, etc., but it's also a problem for the cultures and
individuals who are not that way.
> I looked up "Heidi Fleiss" to see who/what she is
> apparently a "Hollywood Madam", never heard of her.
Hard to avoid on this side of the big puddle. Ran a very expensive
call-girl ring (thousands of dollars a shot) with some very famous clients.
Classic scandal material.
ggull
John Blahna <johnm...@mindspring.com> wrote i
> > No I am not sure but, paddy grown hybrid or not, if its got GE it will
> indeed
> > hybrid itself along with non-GE in the future, (creating hybrids of GE
and
> non
> > is indeed GE.)
>
> doesn't that defeat the purpose of both GE and hybridizing? apparently a
> key will be to keep the different types from crossing.
I am not making this up, though I cannot vouch for its accuracy, but I have
heard of cases where GE crops have "forcefully hybridized" with neighboring
crops, effectively polluting them ... but the GE manufacturer has somehow
found out and claimed that the farmer trying to be natural has "stolen"
those genes and owes them money for them! Sounds bizarre enough to be
true.
John Blahna
"ggull" <ggul...@SPAMrcn.com> wrote in message
.. but the GE manufacturer has somehow
> found out and claimed that the farmer trying to be natural has "stolen"
> those genes and owes them money for them! Sounds bizarre enough to be
> true.
bizarre perhaps, but nothing is unexpected to me when money enters the
equasion in this country!
johnmohdom
Suzan
(pronounced nez purse) at a do up at Fort Vancouver, Washington two
weeks ago. I had just finished his bio "A Little Bit of Wisdom"on the
urging of my basketweaving teacher, Pat Coutney Gold, who teaches
Wasco Sally Bag Making. Mr. Axtell is commemorating places of Nez
Pierce battles and has recently added Fort Vancouver to the trail he
travels every year.
After Chief Joseph was defeated some of the people who were trying to
avoid the war by going on a buffalo hunt got caught by the US Army
soldiers and marched cruelly across Oregon on foot. They (about 35
people all ages) were kept in the fort for a year. A little boy died
and the memorial was to tell about and pray for the little one and the
circumstances and all. Part of the event had two lads on good-looking
horses circle around the spectators. Those Appaloosa were killed off
by the army but maybe some were spared. It was heart breaking to think
of all that went on not too many years ago.
Mike Cleven
> I'm interested in knowing native definitions of totem and totemic spirit,
> which I call totemic someone. Also I want to know if any natives
> consider their totems to be deities to them, which I do.
>
> When I get a significant sign from a member of another species I say that
> I have that species as a totem species and that the totemic someone of that
> species, which (the totemic someone) I denote in capitals as Species
> Name, is one of my totem deities. I sometimes say that Species Name
> is the totem too. Human is also one of my deities but I don't
> consider Human to be a totem deity since the human species is my
> species and not another species.
>
> I define the totemic someone of a species as the smallest (in mass,
> or if there is a tie in mass, in volume) someone which contains
> the species (including the bodies of species members as well as
> their spirits or energy bodies).
>
> For more discussion on this see the webpage
> http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html
> which is a subpage of my Salmon on the Thorns web page
> http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
All of which is more evidence that they _do_ grow good weed in
Newfoundland....
> .
>
> You may call me a new ager, but I have been strongly influenced by
> native pagan beliefs and legends, and I think I am similar to
> the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth who I would like to learn more about.
> I would also like to know more about the originator(s) of
> sundance traditions, since I have done my own naked sundance/sun stare/
> thorn hill climb/glowing (at night) sky blue rose vision almost
> eleven years (one sunspot cycle) ago and hope that I am nearing the
> end of seven years of low/wilderness years.
>
> But I am non-native and have had more celtic influences, and I guess
> I could be called a new ager since I have invented some of my
> belief system. But I intend to learn more of the traditions of
> this land though unfortunately the Beothucks are gone from here.
> But I hope to learn some from scholarly studies of the Beothuck
> and from the Mi'qmaq (sp?) and from British Columbia natives,
> especially the Musqueam who should own the land where I did my
> naked thorn hill climb.
Had to jump in here. "Naked thorn hill climb" in Musqueam territory.
What? - you climbed up from Wreck Beach via the blackberry bramble and
want to brag about it? What in heaven's name were you thinking of.
Where exactly was this - how do you know you were on Musqueam territory,
and not Kwantlen, Katzie, Kwekwetlem, Squamish or Tsawwassen? Musqueam
are pretty private about their traditions, by the way, despite being
encroached on all sides by the City of Vancouver; if you go spewing like
you are to one of their elders asking for spiritual enlightenment you're
likely to get chuckled out of the room.....
As for "totems" in BC, you're not going to find the kind of answers you
want to find. If you want to research totem _poles_ from BC, the best
place to start is a Nat'l Museum of Canada publication called "Totem
Poles" by Marius Barbeau which is a good starting-point. Otherwise look
for "Chiefly Feasts: the Enduring Kwakiutl Potlatch" from the American
Museum of Natural History....
--
Mike Cleven
http://www.cayoosh.net (Bridge River Lillooet history)
http://www.hiyu.net (Chinook Jargon phrasebook/history)
Wayne George
and your words are true...
The Smiling Crow :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Mike Cleven" <iro...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:3CDF36A6...@bigfoot.com...
Mike
Suzan
Many of our people died in far off places some were able to pass on
their history or just their last words. I have a book thats just been
copied from the words of Three Eagles of the Nez Perces. " I went to
the mountain to fast. I built a small fire and watched the sun go
down. It was a dark and lonely night with the song of the wolfe as I
sat listening to the heart of the earth." he was speaking of his quest
of tiwatitmas. Many of these bios are still around but very hard to
find. The U of AZ has some as well as tapes of people speaking, and
even a few movies. We have to save and pass on all we know so the ones
that come next can pass on also.
MIke
David Dalton
>David Dalton wrote:
>> I'm interested in knowing native definitions of totem and totemic spirit,
>> which I call totemic someone. Also I want to know if any natives
>> consider their totems to be deities to them, which I do.
>>
>> When I get a significant sign from a member of another species I say that
>> I have that species as a totem species and that the totemic someone of that
>> species, which (the totemic someone) I denote in capitals as Species
>> Name, is one of my totem deities. I sometimes say that Species Name
>> is the totem too. Human is also one of my deities but I don't
>> consider Human to be a totem deity since the human species is my
>> species and not another species.
I also now say that the significant sign from another species
could have occurred in the past to one of someone's ancestors, such
that the totem is a totem to the entire tribe. I don't have
any totems of that type though since my family does not have
a tradition of totems, at least in recent centuries. I
have yet to add this addition to my definition of totem
to my web page but will add it at next edit.
But I know you don't care about my definition of totem but
I would still like to know your definitions of totem. That
is so, if your definitions and mine are different, I should
stop using the term totem and use a different term.
I did get some advice on the definition of totem on
alt.religion.shamanism and soc.religion.paganism
and I have yet to check soc.religion.shamanism (I
have to check that via google).
>>
>> I define the totemic someone of a species as the smallest (in mass,
>> or if there is a tie in mass, in volume) someone which contains
>> the species (including the bodies of species members as well as
>> their spirits or energy bodies).
>>
>> For more discussion on this see the webpage
>> http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/deities.html
>> which is a subpage of my Salmon on the Thorns web page
>> http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
>All of which is more evidence that they _do_ grow good weed in
>Newfoundland....
Ha! Yes, I hear they do but I don't touch the stuff since a
full joint on Wreck Beach in May of 1992 triggered a bad
psychotic episode and in fact extended it past full moon
which wasn't the case for my other three waxing gibbous
moon trial periods, which ended at or before full moon
and which were followed 5.5 lunar months later by a
waning crecent high.
I was on my way to Wreck Beach but had stripped naked a few hundred
metres east of the first tower (going west) so I was west of Spanish
Banks and I guess I was on Tower Beach. I did a naked sundance and
sun stare, blacked out and fell into the water where I was standing
and then came to and left the beach and began climbing the steep
hillside. It got gradually thornier and thornier until it was
a mass of tangled thorny vines which I think were either blackberry
or similar to blackberry. I stopped and slept partway up in
a small clay hollow and otherwise
my entire weight, feet and hands were on the thorns and it was
sheer agony to move a foot or hand from one set of thorns to another
set of thorns. Near the top I had a vision of a glowing sky blue
rose, and that was about 4 a.m. two days before new moon. At the
top I had to do a "salmon leap" over a clump of thorns to avoid
catching my genitals on the thorns. Unusually I didn't bleed
much since the thorns were somewhat blunt, but it was painful.
This is described in more detail on my web page
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
particularly on its subpage
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/sundance.html
I guess the thorns took the place of the pain in the sundance ceremony
I'm pretty sure that area of Pacific Spirit Park is land that the
Musqueam should own although they don't yet (but they probably did
in the past). And I don't plan to go spewing to any elders
but would welcome information from them or you on past native historical,
living or mythological figures (such as the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth)
who had experiences similar to mine. I plan to do more reading
of native folklore. I would then put such figures on a par with
those such as Taliesin, Jesus, Krishna and the Buddha. Myself,
I am not on a par with them yet if ever, that will be determined
by my work (I plan to do some poetry when the highs resume,
hopefully later this year or early in 2003).
>As for "totems" in BC, you're not going to find the kind of answers you
>want to find. If you want to research totem _poles_ from BC, the best
>place to start is a Nat'l Museum of Canada publication called "Totem
>Poles" by Marius Barbeau which is a good starting-point. Otherwise look
>for "Chiefly Feasts: the Enduring Kwakiutl Potlatch" from the American
>Museum of Natural History....
Thanks Mike for those references and for your other comments.
David
ggull
David Dalton <dal...@nfld.com> wrote in message
> You may call me a new ager, but I have been strongly influenced by
> native pagan beliefs and legends, and I think I am similar to
> the Iowa Lakota Salmon youth who I would like to learn more about.
Does this confuse anyone else? Salmon in Iowa? Lakota -- maybe this is
channelling the movie Smoke Signals, "Dances with salmon"?