Buang masa..
Abdullah Omar
Apa faedah lu orang dapat dari perbicangan ini..luar negara berani cakap
pasal bangsa, cuba balik sini kita pakat bincang tengok siapa berani..
Andrew Tan
...cuba pakat bincang tanpa bangkangan kerajaan tengok sapa berani...cun tak?
Andrew Tan
In a previous article, af620@yfn (Andrew Tan) says:
>
>In a previous article, abdu...@ms.mimos.my (Abdullah Omar) says:
>
>...cuba pakat bincang tanpa bangkangan kerajaan tengok sapa \/ berani..cun tak?
^^^^^^^^^^ lagi
sokongan
Mr M. Akhtar
Some intelligent discussion on racism!! While we can see that all the
conflicts around us are due to racism, facism and intolerance - here we are
the so-called 'learned Malaysians' drumming up the issue over and over again.
It won't be long before our generation replaces the present leaders. I
shudder to think about it if you really feel about it from the way you write
(take note MIMOS). Also a big disgrace from those who are rude and sexist,
often resorting to the 'f---' word in trying to put their point across.
Please let's show more tolerance, understanding and mature discussion (in
polite words). As if we were not enough with our own problems, here comes
another ultra-nationalist (from Turkey??) forcing us to swallow his
Balkan sorrow. I symphatise with the present genocide, but they are not
angels either. Merry X-mas.
Suhaimi Mansor
>Pasal apa lu orang semua bangang sangat..tak dak benda lain nak bincang ke..
>Apa faedah lu orang dapat dari perbicangan ini..luar negara berani cakap
>pasal bangsa, cuba balik sini kita pakat bincang tengok siapa berani..
Assalamualaikum Brade,
Kita orang kat luar negeri ni tak bangang, dan banyak faedah yang
kami dapat dari perbincangan kat SCM. Banyak benda yang kami bincang, dan
banyak ilmu pengetahuan yang saya dapat dari perbincangan pasal bangsa.
Kami berbincang bukanlah nak tunjuk siapa berani, tapi untuk menonjolkan
masalah masalah yang timbul dalam masyarakat majmuk.
Please don't let you close-mindedness and prejudices hinder what is
known to be a free discussion zone. Banyak ke kerja kerja saudara kat
Mimos yang belum dilaksanakan? Kalau ya, eloklah saudara habiskan kerja
kerja saudara. Saya ni baru habis exam, jadi banyak jugak masa lapang.
Saiful Azuan Abdul Aziz
Suhaimi Mansor <5031...@cats.ucis.vill.edu> wrote:
>In article <2f3njb$4...@ms.mimos.my>, abdu...@ms.mimos.my (Abdullah Omar) writes...
>>Pasal apa lu orang semua bangang sangat..tak dak benda lain nak bincang ke..
>>Apa faedah lu orang dapat dari perbicangan ini..luar negara berani cakap
>>pasal bangsa, cuba balik sini kita pakat bincang tengok siapa berani..
>
Kenapa dalam perbincangan mesti ada siapa berani, siapa takut? Macam mana
fikiran nak berkembang. This is a disscussion group, not a war zone. So,
lagi banyak pendapat dan topic lagi bagus.
--
=============================================================================
SAIFUL AZUAN ABDUL AZIZ INTERNET:abd...@rpi.edu AOL:azrin USMAIL:1004 Peoples
Ave Troy New York 12180 VOICEMAIL:518-276-5564 PHONE:518-273-0549 RENSSELAER-
POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE DISCALIMER: What should I say over here? Any idea? ----
wan sabeng wan adini
>In article <2f3qn1$k...@news.ysu.edu>, af...@yfn.ysu.edu (Andrew Tan) writes:
>(take note MIMOS). Also a big disgrace from those who are rude and sexist,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Why it is always considered that any posting from MIMOS representing the
whole mimosians? Come-on, please grow up and do not generalize. We remind
others to be matured and irrational, but our articles show clearly how
unpractical we are.
have a nice day.
wan sabeng wan adini
>In article <2f3njb$4...@ms.mimos.my>, abdu...@ms.mimos.my (Abdullah Omar) writes...
>Mimos yang belum dilaksanakan? Kalau ya, eloklah saudara habiskan kerja
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>kerja saudara. Saya ni baru habis exam, jadi banyak jugak masa lapang.
This is another immatured statement (the other one is "any article from
MIMOS representing the whole mimosians). Eventhough I do not aggree with
Abdullah, but claiming that we are not doing our works just because we
send some postings to this newsgroup is very irrational.
Do you think that we don't know what we are doing? Do not tell us what to
do without knowing the real situation, even our boss do not complain this
and that, and suddenlly you who know nothing at all start giving us commands.
have a nice day.
wan sabeng wan adini
>Kenapa dalam perbincangan mesti ada siapa berani, siapa takut? Macam mana
this is better and I aggree with you, come on Dollah! relax la brother, I
really enjoy the discusssion because they really expand our mind and there
are many things we could learn from here.
have a nice day Dollah, can't wait to read your report from your trip to
Singapore.
Yapin
bts.
chong tean ong
I am not attempting to speak for Mr. M. Akhtar but I read what he
has written in a different light from you.
Firstly, the original posting by a MIMOSIAN was uncalled for. While
it is true that this is just one of many MIMOSIANs, it must also be
true that there are certain qualities that MIMOS hiring practices
would seek. I hope that apart from the obvious technical competence,
MIMOS would seek employees that are
1. mature in thought.
2. good team workers e.g. polite, tolerant and patient.
These qualities were sadly not only lacking in the content of the
original posting but on the contrary the opposite of these positive
qualities were demostrated in that original posting.
Secondly, one might argue that this particular poster from MIMOS slipped
through the cracks and is not representative of MIMOSIANs. That may be true
but no MIMOSIAN, until now, disagree with him publicly. In fact, I wonder if
the purpose of your postings in this thread is more to disagree with the other
posters than Mr. Abdullah Omar (i.e the MIMOSIAN in question). If you think
the content of the original posting is unacceptable, why wait till now?
It doesn't even have to be a lengthy reply, just a "I don't agree with
him" would suffice and would have prevented this perceived misconception
of MIMOS. Isn't that worth the 1 min effort?
Regards,
C. T. Ong.
chong tean ong
Regards,
C. T. Ong.
PS.
I apologise if multiple copies of this article are posted. Something got
screwed up.
wan sabeng wan adini
>In article <2f5ehg$8...@ms.mimos.my>, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) writes:
>MIMOS would seek employees that are
>
> 1. mature in thought.
> 2. good team workers e.g. polite, tolerant and patient.
Well, these are very subjective matters, some people are matured in some parts
but not in all parts. Some people are polite, tolerant and patient at certain
time, but due to imperfection of the environment, they will be changed
completely.
>but no MIMOSIAN, until now, disagree with him publicly. In fact, I wonder if
I can assure you that, out of 230 MIMOS staffs, only 3-5 percent spend
sometimes with this newsgruoup. I hope this will solve your puzzle.
>the purpose of your postings in this thread is more to disagree with the other
>posters than Mr. Abdullah Omar (i.e the MIMOSIAN in question). If you think
OK, I don't aggree with Abdullah, happy now? BUT, in the future I hope
nobody would ever think that any poster from MIMOS representing the whole
mimosians AND do not ask us to get back to our works just because
you see few postings from us, we know what we are doing.
have a nice day and peace be upon all muslims.
Ahmad F. Shaarani
In a previous article, abdu...@ms.mimos.my (Abdullah Omar) says:
My Christmas wish is for people like the person above will die out
everywhere in the world by the year 2025.
It is due to people like him that things like in what is happening in Bosnia
happens. "As long as we have the power to screw other people, let's do it".
I am sad that people with his view of race exist in Malaysia.
--
Ahmad Faisal Adham Shaazi | "You know what would make a good story?
Computer Engineering | A clown who has to be cheerful on the
Case Western Reserve University | outside but deep inside he's really sad
Cleveland Ohio USA | and has diarrhea." -- Anonymous
wan sabeng wan adini
>In a previous article, abdu...@ms.mimos.my (Abdullah Omar) says:
>>pasal bangsa, cuba balik sini kita pakat bincang tengok siapa berani..
>>
>My Christmas wish is for people like the person above will die out
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>everywhere in the world by the year 2025.
I do not like to comment any further concerning Abdullah's statement
because I already said I totally do not agree with him, meaning to say
that I agree with you too in this case. But what really make me sad is when
you said "my chritsmas wish ......". From your name I know that you are
muslim. But you sound like you are celebrating christmas.
>It is due to people like him that things like in what is happening in Bosnia
>happens. "As long as we have the power to screw other people, let's do it".
>I am sad that people with his view of race exist in Malaysia.
I belieive that what happen in Bosnia is because the muslims there has
forgotten completely their religion. And i beleive that, same thing will
happen in Malaysia if the muslims celebrating christmas, or follow the way
of life of non-muslims.
My final request, come back to Malaysia with knowledges because that is
what we need, but not American or kuffar in you.
CH...@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
>because I already said I totally do not agree with him, meaning to say
>that I agree with you too in this case. But what really make me sad is when
>you said "my chritsmas wish ......". From your name I know that you are
>muslim. But you sound like you are celebrating christmas.
>
>forgotten completely their religion. And i beleive that, same thing will
>happen in Malaysia if the muslims celebrating christmas, or follow the way
>of life of non-muslims.
>
>My final request, come back to Malaysia with knowledges because that is
>what we need, but not American or kuffar in you.
>
>peace be upon all muslims.
-AL
p/s: BTW, I don't think you know anything about Bosnia. So keep your
Allahdamned mouth shut or I will kick your ass. Go back to work
and stop screwing our taxpayers' pockets. Just a suggestion.
wan sabeng wan adini
I do not like to waste my time with you cheng, say whatever you want, I do
not lost any shoes.
Nor Aishah Osman
>p/s: BTW, I don't think you know anything about Bosnia. So keep your
> Allahdamned mouth shut or I will kick your ass. Go back to work
> and stop screwing our taxpayers' pockets. Just a suggestion.
cheng...cheng ...cheng....cheng .... are you holy man descending from holy
mountain.
BTW, Sabeng, ignore this guy.
Keith K Wong
>But what really make me sad is when
>you said "my chritsmas wish ......". From your name I know that you are
>muslim. But you sound like you are celebrating christmas.
You are living in a multi-racial society. I am sure that most (if not
all) scm'ers would be sad to read your comments.
Please, exercise some tolerance. Would you think twice before inviting a
non-muslim to your house to celebrate Hari Raya?
>I belieive that what happen in Bosnia is because the muslims there has
>forgotten completely their religion. And i beleive that, same thing will
>happen in Malaysia if the muslims celebrating christmas, or follow the way
>of life of non-muslims.
On the contrary. I think that chaos will result if people of all
religions started becoming more fundamentalist.
Come on, Sabeng. You have taken a rather extreme point of view here. I
suppose it could be worse - you might advocate blowing up airliners or
sentencing authors to death (as some of your brothers and sisters are
prone to doing), but this attitude is dangerous enough. You might like
to reconsider your position...?
>My final request, come back to Malaysia with knowledges because that is
>what we need, but not American or kuffar in you.
Also don't forget to come back with tolerance. We need this also.
--
o_o o_o O_o o_O O_O O_O @_@
( - ) ( o ) ( o ) ( o ) ( o ) ( O ) ( O )
( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | )
KEITH KUM-TUCK WONG, Medicine 4, University of Western Australia.
"Scriptures: The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished
from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are
based." [Ambrose Bierce]
Hiok-Tiaq Ng
wan sabeng wan adini <sab...@ms.mimos.my> wrote:
>In article <2fadld$b...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> af...@po.CWRU.Edu (Ahmad F. Shaarani) writes:
>>In a previous article, abdu...@ms.mimos.my (Abdullah Omar) says:
>
>>>pasal bangsa, cuba balik sini kita pakat bincang tengok siapa berani..
>>>
>>My Christmas wish is for people like the person above will die out
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>everywhere in the world by the year 2025.
>
>I do not like to comment any further concerning Abdullah's statement
>because I already said I totally do not agree with him, meaning to say
>that I agree with you too in this case. But what really make me sad is when
>you said "my chritsmas wish ......". From your name I know that you are
>muslim. But you sound like you are celebrating christmas.
I am not Christian, and neither are a lot of Americans, but here in the US,
when someone partakes in the Christmas cheer, it just means that they are in
a joyful mood, trying to share whatever goodwill that is left in them with
others less fortunate. Does not mean that they need to be Christians, to have
a Christmas wish. So, you are portraying Muslims to be intolerant of joyous
occasions that was meant for everyone to share in. If you don't like it, then
don't have anything to do with it. Don't impose your intepretation of Islam
upon others. In this time and age, you need not be Christian to participate
in the festivities.
>I belieive that what happen in Bosnia is because the muslims there has
>forgotten completely their religion. And i beleive that, same thing will
>happen in Malaysia if the muslims celebrating christmas, or follow the way
>of life of non-muslims.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Here you have once again showed how close-minded you are by
equating Islam = Good and Non-Islam != Good. Say, did you not take
Civics classes? You know, in Standard 3 or 4 or 5? Where they show
the spirit of 'muhibbah' when the Malays celebrate Hari Raya, the
Chinese and Indians pay their Muslim neighbours a visit and all
that?
>My final request, come back to Malaysia with knowledges because that is
>what we need, but not American or kuffar in you.
> ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
>peace be upon all muslims.
There you go again. You seem to have been brainwashed that all Americans
are bad and everything that America does is bad, except of course, the
quality of education, the technical know how and their large market for
Malaysian goods that Malaysians get fat off from etc etc. Get the drift?
So, why are Muslim Malaysians doing business with Americans and Kaffirs?
Oh yeah, peace be upon EVERYONE, muslims and non.
chong tean ong
>
[stuff deleted]
> Well, these are very subjective matters, some people are matured in some parts
> but not in all parts. Some people are polite, tolerant and patient at certain
> time, but due to imperfection of the environment, they will be changed
> completely.
>
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think that Abdullah was provoked
into making those statements.
[stuff deleted]
> OK, I don't aggree with Abdullah, happy now?
It was not only a question of me being happy about it or not. But more
importantly, are you happy that you are doing the right thing. When we do not
respond to such drivels, we are actually condoning them esp. then the source is
from within your own organization.
Regards,
C. T. Ong.
Beng Teck Here...
Hey Abdullah, saya ni pengecut lah... nanti ISA Kamunting habislah ku...
Pekara Yang benar tentang bangsa pun tak boleh cakap... sigh...
apa nak jadi... sampai sekarang tak kahwin lagi...
Zon Kamariah Mohomed Wahie
Sorry for barging in.. But please be informed that whatever opinions
expressed by any mimosian in scm or anywhere else on earth does not
reflect the opinions of the organization.
If you want to argue about anything at all.. please don't drag the
organization into it..hmm talk about being professional.
No flame intended :).
zon kamariah - the above statement is strictly mine, none others but mine.
ok, you'll have a joyous Xmas, you hear >:-|
Black...@mts.rpi.edu
|> I can assure you that, out of 230 MIMOS staffs, only 3-5 percent spend
|> sometimes with this newsgruoup. I hope this will solve your puzzle.
..
|> nobody would ever think that any poster from MIMOS representing the whole
|> mimosians AND do not ask us to get back to our works just because
|> you see few postings from us, we know what we are doing.
we have something statistically representative.
|> OK, I don't aggree with Abdullah, happy now? BUT, in the future I hope
|> have a nice day and peace be upon all muslims.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Despite all your rantings above, you are really not that
different from Abdullah. That probably explains why the
muslims world is at odd with the rest.
Peace be with all regardless of race, ethnic origin or believe.
Black Swan
us...@msuvx2.memst.edu
> I am not Christian, and neither are a lot of Americans, but here in the US,
> when someone partakes in the Christmas cheer, it just means that they are in
> a joyful mood, trying to share whatever goodwill that is left in them with
> others less fortunate. Does not mean that they need to be Christians, to have
> a Christmas wish. So, you are portraying Muslims to be intolerant of joyous
> occasions that was meant for everyone to share in. If you don't like it, then
> don't have anything to do with it. Don't impose your intepretation of Islam
> upon others. In this time and age, you need not be Christian to participate
> in the festivities.
You know... it was reported in the local papers (NST or Star or
the caring paper) that the Japanese celebrates Christmas in Japan, in a
big way, even though only a small percentage of the population is
Christian. The reason? Because Christmas sales is good for business, and
everyone likes the idea of giving and receiving gifts...
Makes you think, doesn't it? *grin*
-Tai {]======----------- (EVERYTHING DISCLAIMED!!) )(*&^%$#@!><":}[{]'|;`.~,/?
|Most Active SCM Netter (1993)|Feel free to disagree with anything I say. |
|Conferred by |______________________________________________|
|CH...@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu |Opinions for sale. Cheap. Volume discounts. |
|_____________________________|______________________________________________|
|NET |***Your .plan can make you money. Finger me to find out how.***|SURFER|
psi...@engr.uvic.ca
But I need to know your opinions, as Malaysians residing abroad, on the level of tourism development in Malaysia. The following are some questions that are burning to be asked within me:
- Do you think Malaysia is developing its tourism industry at too large a scale?
- Has it or will it have a negative impact on the people of Malaysia? This is with regards to the bad western values and morals that come with tourism. (I am not saying all western values and morals are bad!!)
- Are the various tourist spots being destroyed by tourism development?
The reason I say this is because I see a lot of negative impacts caused by tourism. A very good example is Pulau Langkawi. The first time I visited Langkawi was in Feb. 1990. I loved it!!!! The "downtown" was pleasant, the beaches were gorgeous, especially Pelangi Beach, and there were not too many people, especially tourists, on Lagkawi. I went back there two years later, and I was not impressed. The town had traffic, and the beaches were too crowded. Some of the natural attractions like the hot wa
ter springs was developed into a concrete structure. The reason people visited Langkawi in the first place is for its naturalness. Now to attract more people development has taken place.
Penang has the same problem. I am sure a number of you who are from Penang, as I am, will agree with me that the development of the beaches on the island has affected the beauty of the beaches. Komtar was a very bad idea as well. As far as I know some of the floors are still vacant. ( Correct me if I am wrong). I find it very funny when Komtar is used as a place of interest and when it is portrayed in brochures depicting Penang. A number of people have also found as a place to "hang out" - Relak sajal
ah!!
Negative impact or what!!!!
How many of you remember the big tree in front of Dewan Sri Pinang. Well, its gone, if you do not know yet!!! A concrete floor has taken its place - for the sake of tourism. That place has lost its appeal.
My friend was kind enough to let me use his account as I am not logged into the internet system yet. However, I can be reached at this Pegasus email address:
gwy...@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg
[deleted]
> I belieive that what happen in Bosnia is because the muslims there has
> forgotten completely their religion. And i beleive that, same thing will
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
interesting observation. From all reports that I have read what's
happening in Bosnia is due to ethnic conflicts, hence "ethnic cleansing".
What defines those different ethnicity, i.e. croatian, serbian,
muslim bosnian, are largely religions. I mean there is practically no
physical differences among them. If the muslim bosnians have lost their
religion, as what you have said, there is nothing seperating them, hence
nothing to fight about. The conflict has now become also somewhat a
religious one with a couple of muslim countries sending troops or volunteers.
Maybe you would like to comment further on your observation.
Regards,
Chee
Robert Knowles
>FROM: us...@msuvx2.memst.edu
>
>In article <2fch71$r...@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>, ht...@aries.ece.cmu.edu (Hiok-Tiaq Ng) writes:
>
>> I am not Christian, and neither are a lot of Americans, but here in the US,
>> when someone partakes in the Christmas cheer, it just means that they are in
>> a joyful mood, trying to share whatever goodwill that is left in them with
>> others less fortunate.
To a large degree, Christmas has been secularized in the U.S. And oddly
enough, when Christians try to "recapture" the season for religious
purposes, it often backfires simply because Christmas is really just
a much older pagan religious celebration which was borrowed by the
Christians. Some very fundamentalist Christians do not really celebrate
Christmas to the same degree as others because they are aware of the
old pagan origin of Christmas and know that it is nowhere near the real
birth date of Jesus. [It is no coincidence that Christmas falls very
near the Winter Solstice (usually around Dec 22-23). Also, the old
Roman celebration Saturnalia was also begun around this date.]
>
> You know... it was reported in the local papers (NST or Star or
>the caring paper) that the Japanese celebrates Christmas in Japan, in a
>big way, even though only a small percentage of the population is
>Christian. The reason? Because Christmas sales is good for business, and
>everyone likes the idea of giving and receiving gifts...
> Makes you think, doesn't it? *grin*
>
Just from looking at the frenzied shopping I see around me during this time
of the year, I think the U.S. economy would collapse if people didn't buy
so much during this time of the year. Pretty odd, isn't it?
Josef Widjaja
|
....
|I do not like to comment any further concerning Abdullah's statement
|because I already said I totally do not agree with him, meaning to say
|that I agree with you too in this case. But what really make me sad is when
|you said "my chritsmas wish ......". From your name I know that you are
|muslim. But you sound like you are celebrating christmas.
A lot of Australians are not Christians (ie atheist), yet they still
celebrate Christmas and send Christmas cards. In many western countries,
Christmas is losing its religious meaning. I have even seen some Buddhists
celebrate Christmas by putting up Christmas tree at home and buying presents
for children. Of course, it has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Just an
excuse to have fun.
--
__________Josef Widjaja___________
| jwid...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au | Don't you worry about that
| Macquarie University, Australia | Mark my words
|__________________________________| - Joh Bjelke-Petersen
kkw...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> Pasal apa lu orang semua bangang sangat..
Apa khabar Encik Abdullah.Omar.The.Last.Great.Bangsat.from.Malaysia? Pasal
apa you menyibuk? Tak de kerja nak buat?
tak dak benda lain nak bincang ke..
Ini terletaklah kepada netter-netter lain, kalau mereka nak bincang isu-isu
sensitif, biarkan-lah. Kalau nak bincang pasal makanan pun boleh, nak bincang
pasal seks pun boleh, pendek kata apa-apa pun boleh, you "phafam" apa itu
"free speech", kalau tak "phafam" cuba cari dalam kamus.
> Apa faedah lu orang dapat dari perbicangan ini..luar negara berani cakap
> pasal bangsa, cuba balik sini kita pakat bincang tengok siabincang/goncang/
hisap...tentang apa-apa mereka suka.
You ni macam budak-budak, kalau you nak masuk campur, masuk saje janganlah
cakap netter-netter lain tak berani, ok gua cabar you masuk dalam perbincangan
ini, ada cun?
Kkwong
Sleepless in Kansas
Gua sudah cakap, ada faedah ke atau tidak siapa-siapa boleh
wan sabeng wan adini
>In article <2fas66$b...@ms.mimos.my>, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) writes:
>> I belieive that what happen in Bosnia is because the muslims there has
>> forgotten completely their religion. And i beleive that, same thing will
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>interesting observation. From all reports that I have read what's
>happening in Bosnia is due to ethnic conflicts, hence "ethnic cleansing".
>What defines those different ethnicity, i.e. croatian, serbian,
>muslim bosnian, are largely religions. I mean there is practically no
>physical differences among them. If the muslim bosnians have lost their
>religion, as what you have said, there is nothing seperating them, hence
>nothing to fight about. The conflict has now become also somewhat a
>religious one with a couple of muslim countries sending troops or volunteers.
Surely I like to make further comments on this since you have disagree in
a very profesional way.
I like to give my comments from my point of view as a muslim, I might not
be too knowlegable about what is really going on in Bosnia as some of you
claim, but one thing for sure, I know my religion better than you (I mean
the chinese), my comments are not based on what I see or heard, but based
on what I understand from Allah's words, ie Quran. It is mentioned in many
ayats that anything happen to the muslims are due to their own deeds. If
they commit adultery, earth-quake will come, if they don't pay zakat,
Allah will stop the rain, and if sins are commited openly and none of them
even the pious one are going to prevent it, Allah will send them a group of
people who will not respect their elders, their woman and they will be
slaughtered like animals.
Why Allah send all these calamities? This is to remind them so that not to
forget Allah.
This is what I read from our holy book Quran and I belief anything in it
is very true, no doubt about it.
You see in Bosnia, the muslim dress like non-muslims, they do not even
have muslim name, they do not preserve their muslim identity. I like to
compare them with muslims in China who are also under communist government.
This muslim chinese preseve their muslim identity and the communist
government respect them.
I remember last time when I was doing my degree in London University, I
visited few European Countries and I was very sad when I found many
muslims do not know anything about Islam and they behave like westeners.
This thing also has happened in Malaysia, where the muslims start to
forget their identity and worst, some of them celebrated chrismast like
christians. If this is continue going on and nobody going to stop it,
sooner or later, all the malay will be salughtered by the chinese and
indians, not because they want to do it, but because Allah has ordered
them to do it because there is no use to keep these muslim alive.
Yapin
bts
Andrew Tan
In a previous article, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) says:
[...]
>Why Allah send all these calamities? This is to remind them so that not to
>forget Allah.
>
>This is what I read from our holy book Quran and I belief anything in it
>is very true, no doubt about it.
[...]
>This thing also has happened in Malaysia, where the muslims start to
>forget their identity and worst, some of them celebrated chrismast like
>christians. If this is continue going on and nobody going to stop it,
>sooner or later, all the malay will be salughtered by the chinese and
*******************************
>indians, not because they want to do it, but because Allah has ordered
********
>them to do it because there is no use to keep these muslim alive.
Ummm...can you PLEASE (politely) cite me the references in your holy
book Quran which states that "...all the malay will be [slaughtered}
by the chinese and indians, not because they want to do it, but because
Allah has ordered them to do it..."??
Did the book specifically refer to the "chinese and indians" being
responsible or is that your (mis)interpretation? Please clarify.
ATAN
>Yapin
>bts
>
CH...@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
presented below by Sabeng]
London University whose only purpose was to leave his brain behind? It's
great that you went home to serve our country, but don't you think you
should have also brought your brain back home too? You are such an idiot,
Sabeng! Bodoh, very bodoh.
-AL, who has been living in peace, despite such a non-muslim that he is.
wan sabeng wan adini
>-AL, who has been living in peace, despite such a non-muslim that he is.
malas gua nak layan mat sekor ni. lantak la apa lu nak cakap, wasting my time.
Andrew Tan
Tuan Sabeng:
Diharap yang tuan jangan melepaskan peluang melayan saya pulak, okie?
Seperti yang dijemput tadi, sila beri "citation/references" dimana kitab Quran
tu terdapat ayat-ayat yang apabila diterjemaah membunyi seperti, "Adalah
kehendak Allah yang orang-orang Cina dan India disuruh membunuh orang
kaum Melayu" (lebih korang-lah, ya?).
=============================================================================
Mr Sabeng:
I'm waiting to see your references/citation in the Quran about
Allah ordering the Chinese and Indians to kill the Muslims. This is
my second request and I hope you will not dissapoint me. You see, I
do not think your statements are true and will thus refrain from
engaging in full-battle gear (yet).
I'm doing this just in case the Quran DOES indeed contain
those verses...I don't wanna look stooopid, know what I mean?
Kinda covering my butt. So...indulge me and let's see your references, ya? :)
Would other netters like to share some comments too?
ATAN
p.s. In the spirit of combat-gear preparations, I suggest future MIMOS postings
to include the standard disclaimers. :)
wan sabeng wan adini
>In a previous article, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) says:
>Tuan Sabeng:
>
> Diharap yang tuan jangan melepaskan peluang melayan saya pulak, okie?
>Seperti yang dijemput tadi, sila beri "citation/references" dimana kitab Quran
>tu terdapat ayat-ayat yang apabila diterjemaah membunyi seperti, "Adalah
>kehendak Allah yang orang-orang Cina dan India disuruh membunuh orang
>kaum Melayu" (lebih korang-lah, ya?).
I think you do not understand my points when I said " Allah will order the
chinese and indians to slaughter the malay if they forget their islamic
identities. What I am trying to say here is that if muslims (any muslim
nations) take things other than Islam as their guidence, Allah will use
His creation (non-muslims, water, wind, land, fire) to destroy these muslims.
Have you heard the stories of prophets before prophet Mohammaad and
prophet Isa? If you like, I will quote few stories about them in the future.
>Mr Sabeng:
>
> I'm waiting to see your references/citation in the Quran about
>Allah ordering the Chinese and Indians to kill the Muslims. This is
Allah does not mention which race kill which race because in the eyes of
Allah, no race is superior or better than the other race, but what does
make different in the eyes of Allah is our heart, whether we are believer
or disbeliever. In the Quran Allah use the term believer or disbeliever.
Prophet Mohammad s.a.w said, "if the believers indulge themselves in
sinful manner openly and none of them advice others to stop it, Allah will
send them suffer and torture before they are taken from this world"
Yapin
bts.
gwy...@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg
> Surely I like to make further comments on this since you have disagree in
> a very profesional way.
>
> I like to give my comments from my point of view as a muslim, I might not
> be too knowlegable about what is really going on in Bosnia as some of you
> claim, but one thing for sure, I know my religion better than you (I mean
> the chinese), my comments are not based on what I see or heard, but based
> on what I understand from Allah's words, ie Quran. It is mentioned in many
> ayats that anything happen to the muslims are due to their own deeds. If
> they commit adultery, earth-quake will come, if they don't pay zakat,
> Allah will stop the rain, and if sins are commited openly and none of them
> even the pious one are going to prevent it, Allah will send them a group of
> people who will not respect their elders, their woman and they will be
> slaughtered like animals.
>
I am seriously trying to understand what you wrote and not being
disrespectful to your religion and beliefs. Further questions:
What great sins have the people in the African Horn nations (eg.
Sudan, Ethopia), which I believe are largely muslims, done to
deserve the worst calamities that can befallen them, eg. war,
desertification, diseases, hunger and death?
And if I may bring the whole issues closer to home, what great
sins have the people in the east coast of west Malaysia
(largely muslims) done to deserve the worst flooding in
many many decades (30 years?) ?
And if these are the wishes of the God, should the people in
the rest of the world, muslim or non-muslim, help them?
Regards,
Chee
wan sabeng wan adini
>In article <2fo5cv$o...@ms.mimos.my>, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) writes:
>> people who will not respect their elders, their woman and they will be
>> slaughtered like animals.
>I am seriously trying to understand what you wrote and not being
>disrespectful to your religion and beliefs. Further questions:
>
>What great sins have the people in the African Horn nations (eg.
>Sudan, Ethopia), which I believe are largely muslims, done to
>deserve the worst calamities that can befallen them, eg. war,
>desertification, diseases, hunger and death?
>And if I may bring the whole issues closer to home, what great
>sins have the people in the east coast of west Malaysia
>(largely muslims) done to deserve the worst flooding in
>many many decades (30 years?) ?
answers to both questions are the same, go and visit any mosque in this world,
you will find that it is empty, where do the muslims go then? Pub, discos,
casinos, shopping places, chow kit road etc.
How many percent muslims from these countries perform their prayer regularly,
I am from east cost of Malaysia, Sarawak and near Sibu, let take that as
our sample, you could predict the situation of the whole muslim population
from the sample.
In the town where I live, there are three mosques, one is closed and we
are left we two. One big mosque is always empty even during Friday prayer.
Another one which is smaller, only visited by very old people who are going
to die 2 3 years. Whereas you can find the younsters at snooker club,
cinema and discos.
Islam has gone away from the muslims hearts nowdayas and they take other
things ar their guidence.
This is the reason why Allah send them the calamities.
I am only talking about muslims leaving their five time daily prayer, what
about other Allah's commandments?
Yapin
bts
Keith K Wong
: Islam has gone away from the muslims hearts nowdayas and they take other
: things ar their guidence.
: This is the reason why Allah send them the calamities.
I invite you to do a study on `world calamities'. I want you to show
that there is an correlation between disasters and non-belief in Allah
by the local population. Do a second study and show that believers in
Allah are protected from such disasters. Use your hypothesis to explain
why a bridge collapsed in Mecca during the Haj a few years back, killing
many good Muslims.
I think you will find what I (and most rational people) have known all
along - these disasters strike randomly and in no particular order.
Also, here is a gem of a quote that I found for you:
"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H.Sapiens is that the
Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the
saccharine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their
prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery."
[Robert A. Heinlein]
Zon Kamariah Mohomed Wahie
>> on what I understand from Allah's words, ie Quran. It is mentioned in many
>> ayats that anything happen to the muslims are due to their own deeds. If
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> they commit adultery, earth-quake will come, if they don't pay zakat,
>> Allah will stop the rain, and if sins are commited openly and none of them
>> even the pious one are going to prevent it, Allah will send them a group of
>> people who will not respect their elders, their woman and they will be
>> slaughtered like animals.
>
>I am seriously trying to understand what you wrote and not being
>disrespectful to your religion and beliefs. Further questions:
>
>What great sins have the people in the African Horn nations (eg.
>Sudan, Ethopia), which I believe are largely muslims, done to
>deserve the worst calamities that can befallen them, eg. war,
>desertification, diseases, hunger and death?
Although your questions are directed to the original poster I can't help
but felt compelled to respond to the best of my knowledge and understanding.
I am not surprise that you failed to understand Islam and its belief as
sure as I am sitting here before my pc that many a muslim does not
understand Islam as a way life. If you refer to the Holy Quran, Surah
Al-Ankabut (Chapter 29:the Spider) verse 1-2 ALlah says, translated:
~Do Men think that they will be left alone when they say
`We Believe", and they will not Be tested? (with afflictions)~
~We did test those before them, and God will Certainly Know those
who are true from those who are false~
islamic belief is tested by trial in life practical conduct and mere lip
profession of Faith in Islam simply isn't sufficient. To be tried and
tested in the real turmoil in life in all kinds of circumstances be it in
relation to environment around us (the recent landslide that moved the
foundation of the condominium disaster in Ulu Klang, floods in
practically all states are good examples), individual life,
much pain, sorrow and self sacrifice is necessary. This is one way for
the muslims to purify themselves. God will not test you with something
you can't endure. And in the case of the Kelantan state, with no backing from
the fed govt. they are trying to uphold hudud law and slowly they are
turning into an Islamic state. The patience shown by the Kelantanese
leader paid off despite the little fund and floods and all other tests,
insyaAllah.
There is no middle path for a muslim to choose, it is either the
truth or false (haq or bathil, good or evil). Being a true muslim does
not make him a fundamentalist or worse, a muslim extremist. The lob-sided
way the world mdeia controled by the zionist puts muslims in bad picture.
I believe if all muslims leaders in the world are united and do away with
secularism and worldly gains the glorious Islam era will back, insyaAllah.
I think I've gone overboard with what I have originally wanted to say.
Wassalamualaikumusliminawallmuslimat..
zonk
wan sabeng wan adini
>wan sabeng wan adini (sab...@ms.mimos.my) wrote:
>I think you will find what I (and most rational people) have known all
>along - these disasters strike randomly and in no particular order.
here is another question, in fact I recieved so many questions regarding what
I have written in s.c.m.
Once, the companions of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w) asked him, if Allah send
His calamities to certain group of people, what will happen to the pious one
who are also in that group. The answer is, the pious one will not be
excluded, meaning that they will also receive the calamities BUT in the
life hereafter, they will be separated from the bad one.
have a nice day.
Mariah Abdul Rahim
>In article <2fol7c$r...@news.ysu.edu> af...@yfn.ysu.edu (Andrew Tan) writes:
>>In a previous article, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) says:
>
>identities. What I am trying to say here is that if muslims (any muslim
>nations) take things other than Islam as their guidence, Allah will use
>His creation (non-muslims, water, wind, land, fire) to destroy these muslims.
>Have you heard the stories of prophets before prophet Mohammaad and
>prophet Isa? If you like, I will quote few stories about them in the future.
>
Yeah, let me quote a few stories about them from the Al-Qur'an (Surah
Al-A'raaf verses 59-93: 7th Surah in the AL-Qur'an) with reference to the
Bible and books written about them.
1) Noah's warning was rejected by his generation and they were destroyed in
the flood.
2) The 'Ad people with their prophet Hud occupied a large tract of country in
the Southern Arabia, extending from Umman at the mouth of Persian Gulf to
Hadhramaut and Yemen at the southern end of the Red Sea. They forsook the
true God, and oppressed their people. A three years famine visited them,
but yet they took no warning. At length a terrible blast of wind
destroyed them and their land. The tomb of the Prophet Hud is still
traditionally shown in Hadhramaut. There are ruins and incriptions in the
neighbourhood. (see Hadhramaut, Some of its Mysteries Unveiled by D.van
der Meulen and H. von Wissmann Leyden, 1932).
3) With the advance of material civilization, the Thamud people became
godless and arrogant and were destroyed by a dreadful earthquake, which
threw them prone on the ground and buried with them their houses and fine
buildings.
4) The story of the destruction of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah belonging
to prophet Lut (Lot in the English Bible) is told in the Al-Quran as
well as in the 19th Chapter of Genesis. The inhabitants of S&G practices
unnatural crime (i.e. homosexuality) and God rained upon S&G brimstones
and fire, and God overthrew those cities, all the plain, inhabitants
and that which grew upon the ground.
Some of the stories which have been related should give warning to present
and future generation which have inherited the land, power and experiences
of the past. We should know that if we fall into the same sins, we will
meet with the same fate.
--mar--
Tehseen . Raza
>Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the
>saccharine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their
>prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery."
>[Robert A. Heinlein]
From Quran 35:15 - 17
O ye men! It is ye that have need of Allah: but Allah is The One
Free of all wants, worthy of all praise.
If He so pleased, He could blot you out and bring in a New
Creation
Nor is that (at all) difficult for Allah.
Mr M. Akhtar
>
> I think you will find what I (and most rational people) have known all
> along - these disasters strike randomly and in no particular order.
>
> here is another question, in fact I recieved so many questions regarding what
> I have written in s.c.m.
>
> Once, the companions of Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w) asked him, if Allah send
> His calamities to certain group of people, what will happen to the pious one
> who are also in that group. The answer is, the pious one will not be
> excluded, meaning that they will also receive the calamities BUT in the
> life hereafter, they will be separated from the bad one.
>
> have a nice day.
Hi friends,
Let me add to the argument about the calamities, with a limited knowledge that
I may have. The Muslims cannot pass judgement as to whether a virtuous deed
has been accepted by God - all one can do is to try his/her best. They also
cannot determine when their virtues will be rewarded or when they have to pay
for their sins (now, 1994 or hereafter ??). So to say that the Bosnians are
being punished now for their 'unIslamic-like' conduct is not true. So, Mr.
Wan, you cannot say that the East Coast Malaysians are being punished now
for the '...empty mosques..' etc., neither can the Muslims pass judgement
on the Somalians, the Arabs, the Pakistanis etc. (in fact how sure are you
that the calamities are not God's way of testing the people's faith and
resilience?).
Why don't we leave the rewarding and punishing to God, and look at the
calamities from the racial and socio-economic point of view. I still
don't see a satisfactory answer to Mr. Timothy's queries including - do the
Bosnians have to dress like an Arab in their cold climate etc.
My last point is whatever your belief or inclination, do it for the good
of mankind, and do your preaching by setting a good example through clean
living, responsible behaviour and CLEAN LANGUAGE. MAN.
Keith K Wong
: 1) Noah's warning was rejected by his generation and they were destroyed in
: the flood.
There is no evidence to suggest that a global flood as described in the
Bible and the Koran occured. In fact, the evidence points the other way:
1) The present level of genetic diversity in all forms of life would
be impossible to attain given only a pair of each animal on
the ark.
2) The food pyramid would have been topsy turvy immediately after the
flood. Explain how the food pyramid re-established itself before all
the animals died out.
3) Explain what the carnivores ate on the ark, given that eating a
single other animal would wipe out an entire species.
4) Explain how freshwater fish and saltwater fish survived the flood,
given that the new environment would have a different osmotic
pressure.
5) Assuming no continental drift (too short time frame), how did the
koalas and the kangaroos get to Australia from Mt. Ararat? Why are
they exclusive to Australia?
6) Account for the existence of trees (some as old as 4000 years)
showing no evidence for a flood. Also, polar ice caps (some as
old as 12,000 years, I believe) showing no evidence of a flood either.
7) Account for the existence of recorded Chinese culture, which dates
back 6000 years and has no history of a flood as described in the
Bible. Incidentally, the Egyptian and the Mesopotamian civilizations
did not record a global flood either. Gee, you would think that these
people would notice getting wiped out. I guess the Chinese are not
that smart after all... :-)
8) Where did all the water come from, and where did it go?
9) Explain why nobody on Earth has ever come up with a single verifiable
observation supporting the flood hypothesis. Also explain why people
still believe in the flood despite this.
I am sorry, but this Noah's ark story is just that... another story. It
would be nice if your Allah had left us some evidence to prove what he
did, but for some reason, he made us all look the other way. Maybe he
has a perverse sense of humour or something?
I really laugh whenever I see grown adults repeating this fairy tale with
all the earnestness of a child believing in Santa.
This happens to be another reason why I cannot trust either the Bible or
the Koran. If these books cannot be trusted to get the basic facts
right, how then, do we trust the unverifiable claims?
wan sabeng wan adini
>Mariah Abdul Rahim (mar...@ms.mimos.my) wrote:
>There is no evidence to suggest that a global flood as described in the
>Bible and the Koran occured. In fact, the evidence points the other way:
I do not about the Bible, but I as a muslim believe strongly whatever
written in the Quran is true eventhough there is no evidence or the
evidence is the other way. Our senses are very limited, your eyes cannot
see what is behind the wall, you cannot hear what is said by somebody who
is at 1 kilometer away, even your scientific equipments cannot predict
what will happen tomorrow. So Allah send 124 000 Prophets (from Adam to
the last one Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w)) to tell the human being what they
cannot see, what they cannot think and the life hereafter is exist.
Do you know how does cow turn grass into milk? Take this grass in any
factory in this world and ask them to change the grass into milk to see
how limited the capability oh human being are.
Thanks a lot Mariah.
peace be upon all muslims and have anice day to non-muslims.
Fong Whye Koon
How wonderful, guess I need not tolerate people like you in the life hereafter.
Now that you have say that calamities affect everybody, both pious and not,
how can you claim that calamities are an effect of not being a pious muslim!
What about the big Muslim disaster that happen to thousands of pious muslims
pilgrims that were crushed to death in a stampede in S.Arabia not too long ago.
I guess that you will attribute that to there being a majority of impious
muslims from Bosnia and Malaysia among the victims.
I suggest that you follow Keith's advice and go do a statistical correlation
of calamities to impious Muslims. Evidence of your findings will be a boon
for the Muslim world and you can definitely gain more devout converts as well
as lead those astray Muslims back into the correct path. But if there is no
correlation at all, please cancel all your postings on this subject, as it
is misleading and shows no respect to the Muslim victims of the calamities by
saying that they died because they were not a good muslim-who are you to
judge them!
Tehseen . Raza
>
>There is no evidence to suggest that a global flood as described in the
>Bible and the Koran occured. In fact, the evidence points the other way:
Can you cite from the Qur'an a verse that described there was a global
flood ?
From Qur'an 17:15-16
Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who
goeth astray doth so to his own loss: no bearer of burdens
can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our
Wrath until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).
When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a
definite order to those among them who are given the good
things of this life and yet transgress: so that the word is
proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly.
Zon Kamariah Mohomed Wahie
>
>for the Muslim world and you can definitely gain more devout converts as well
>as lead those astray Muslims back into the correct path. But if there is no
>correlation at all, please cancel all your postings on this subject, as it
>is misleading and shows no respect to the Muslim victims of the calamities by
>saying that they died because they were not a good muslim-who are you to
>judge them!
Looks like the more we talk about this subject the more confusion
it caused amongst the non-muslim netters. I honestly believe sabeng
was NOT trying to pass judgement on the good muslims who had died as matyrs
(am referring to the pilgrims who died in Mecca a few years back). As
I've said earlier in my last article the calamities that had befallen
the muslims (good or bad ones) are either warnings/reminders or mere tests
from God to the other muslims.
Lets end this thread amicably and if any of the non-muslim netters
would care to know more about Islam and its fatwa, please feel free to
refer your queries to the `ulamas', what we've given so far is the very
elementary stage of Islam.
May Allah show us all the righteous part, ameen.
zon kamariah
mimos
ps: btw, please take not note that mimosians do not share similar
opinions, but everyday in every way, most of us try to be better
muslims :).
wan sabeng wan adini
>How wonderful, guess I need not tolerate people like you in the life hereafter.
What I need, is tolerance from Allah, not you mike.
>Now that you have say that calamities affect everybody, both pious and not,
>how can you claim that calamities are an effect of not being a pious muslim!
When a group of muslims comitted evil deeds, and the pious muslims just
stand there without doing something about it, Allah will send calamities
to all of them, because the pious muslims who are supposed to stop the
evil deeds are not doing their jobs. But still Allah is fair because they
are only punished in this world for not doing their jobs, but in the life
hereafter, they will be excluded.
>I suggest that you follow Keith's advice and go do a statistical correlation
>of calamities to impious Muslims. Evidence of your findings will be a boon
hah! satistical analysis heh!!!, you see, whatever told in the Quran or
Hadist (Prophet s.a.w sayings) are very certain and true, not need for me
to collect data, make estimation from the sample or do hyphotetical
ananlysis on it.
I am not trying to make any judgement here, but all the stories about
people who disobey Allah's commandments are told in the Quran and also
Bible.
I like to advice you to read your Bible because as Timmy said, muslims
and Christians have a lot in common.
I will stop discuss about subject until tomorrow, since I also have a job
to do here at MIMOS, can't spend too much time on this. But that does not
mean I am giving up, at least I want do something for myself, to increase
my faith in Allah, may Allah make it easy for me to put whatever I have
said into practice.
wassalam.
gwy...@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg
>
> answers to both questions are the same, go and visit any mosque in this world,
> you will find that it is empty, where do the muslims go then? Pub, discos,
> casinos, shopping places, chow kit road etc.
On the African Horn nations, I seriously doubt there is any pub, discos,
casinos in those rural areas. I can't say anything about their mosque
attendance. No offence here but do you have any figures on their
mosque attendance. Otherwise I find it a bit harsh that you have dismissed
those entire nations, children, men, women, as unfaithful muslims just
because they are muslims and have the worst calamities in the world.
By the way, you did not answer the last of my previous questions?
Here it is again. If you think that calamities are a form of punishment
from God, do you help those victims, as helping them would negate
the punishment? would you lend a helping hand to those suffering in
Ethopia, Somalia, flood victims in Kelantan, Trengganu whom according
to you they have low mosque attendances.
Not trying to put you in any kind of position. Just trying to have
a meaningful discussion.
Zon Kamariah and Akhtar have provided non-judgemental and alternative
explanation of calamities being a test of ones faith and resilience.
This I find very agreeable.
May all netters be in peace with yourself and with others,
Chee
Keith K Wong
: I do not about the Bible, but I as a muslim believe strongly whatever
: written in the Quran is true eventhough there is no evidence or the
: evidence is the other way.
I find this sentence very memorable. Thanks, I have saved it.
: Do you know how does cow turn grass into milk?
As a matter of fact, I do. Would you like me to post? We do have the
technology to synthesize the proteins in milk, but it cannot be done as
cheaply as simply feeding cows and getting them to do it for us.
New year wishes to everyone on this planet. Errr... to everyone who
celebrates it at least :-)
wan sabeng wan adini
>In article <2fqtrc$d...@ms.mimos.my>, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) writes:
>On the African Horn nations, I seriously doubt there is any pub, discos,
>casinos in those rural areas. I can't say anything about their mosque
>attendance. No offence here but do you have any figures on their
Yes, there are two ways to answer this particular question :
1. I have taken muslims in the town where I live as a sample, and from
that I could make estimation or prediction of the whole muslims population.
There are approximately 10 thousands muslims in the town where I live, and
you can only see 50 of them come regularly to the mosques, most of them
are very old.
2. secondly, you can gamble without casinos, you can drink without bar,
you can dance without any discos, you can commit adultery without proper
places.
>the punishment? would you lend a helping hand to those suffering in
>Ethopia, Somalia, flood victims in Kelantan, Trengganu whom according
>to you they have low mosque attendances.
The best way to help them is come to them and remind them about death,
about life here after and let them come back to life as a proper muslim.
By giving them money, food and sending army there are also helps, but
until when? When you help them by asking them to comeback to Islam,it is like
giving a fisherman a fishing rod instead of giving him fish.
>Zon Kamariah and Akhtar have provided non-judgemental and alternative
>explanation of calamities being a test of ones faith and resilience.
>This I find very agreeable.
Well I agree with them too in this case, Allah send calamities to people
for many reasons. But Allah is very fair, He test us within our capability.
Meaning, He will not give form five examination paper to form one student.
Tomorrow I will conclude my discussion. But my effort to become a true
muslim will be going on...Insya'Allah.
Yapin
bts
Fong Whye Koon
>In article <2fsgc5$6...@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> tfr...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Keith K Wong) writes:
>>Mariah Abdul Rahim (mar...@ms.mimos.my) wrote:
>
>>There is no evidence to suggest that a global flood as described in the
>>Bible and the Koran occured. In fact, the evidence points the other way:
>
>I do not about the Bible, but I as a muslim believe strongly whatever
>written in the Quran is true eventhough there is no evidence or the
>evidence is the other way. Our senses are very limited, your eyes cannot
>see what is behind the wall, you cannot hear what is said by somebody who
>is at 1 kilometer away, even your scientific equipments cannot predict
>what will happen tomorrow. So Allah send 124 000 Prophets (from Adam to
>the last one Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w)) to tell the human being what they
>cannot see, what they cannot think and the life hereafter is exist.
>
A faithful servant will believe anything the master says...white is black
black is white...it's something called blind faith.
>Do you know how does cow turn grass into milk? Take this grass in any
>factory in this world and ask them to change the grass into milk to see
>how limited the capability oh human being are.
>
That's strange, why do humans want to emulate cows? I'm sure if there's
a good reason or market for human-made-milk-from-grass, many companies
and universities will put money into research on this topic. Anyway,
human breast milk are readily available, and the females that produce
them need not chew cud to get milk. In fact milk is generated by the
mammary glands of all mammals and only a fraction of mammals are cud-eater.
You should ask how mammals turn food into milk, and I'm sure you can find
the answer in any medical book about the mammary glands and their functions.
wan sabeng wan adini
>That's strange, why do humans want to emulate cows? I'm sure if there's
>a good reason or market for human-made-milk-from-grass, many companies
I do not mean to change the discussion into more commercial one, but what I am
trying to say is that, human senses and capability are very limited,
imagine you lost both of your thumbs, imagine what can you do without
having thumbs.
imagine your teeth keep growing like your hair or your fingernails?
yapin
bts.
Mr S. Mohd Zain
Saudara yapin,
Keimanan seseorang muslim hanya boleh dilihat oleh seorang manusia melalui
perbuatannya.Apa yang ada didalam hati mereka hanya Allah sahaja yang
mengetahui.Saya faham argumen saudara Yapin mengenai orang orang islam yang
sudah lupa kepada ugama islam tetapi bukanlah menjadi hak kita untuk
mengadili keimanan mereka. Jikalau Allah menjatuhkan bala pada orang-orang itu
hikmatnya hanya Allah yang mengetahui.Firman Allah didalam Al-Quran mengenai
hukuman didunia keatas orang-orang yang mendurhakai Allah patut diperhatikan.
Janganlah kita di Malaysia pulak yang dijatuhkan bala...tetapi apa yang berlaku
di Bosnia dan banyak lagi negara Islam...bala dan sebagainya...tidaklah menjadi
hak kita untuk point out bahawa mereka ini kurang atau tiada iman.Jikalau kita
kaji keadaan umat Islam sekarang ini...kita akan tahu kita semua
bertanggungjawab atas apa yang berlaku.Mari kita kaji:-
1.Islam sebagai satu sistem yang menyeluruh tidak ujud didunia ini sedangkan
Allah telahpun berfirman maksudnya...sesiapa yang tidak berhakim kepada hukum
hukum Allah adalah fsik/zalim/kafir.
2.Sunnah Rasullulah dalam kenegaraan (Kekhalifahan) islam sudah kita lupakan.
3.Perjuangan kita umat islam dimalaysia dan diseluruh dunia banyak yang
bermotifkan nasionalisma,materialisma dll selain keredhaan Allah.
3.Banyak lagi....
Kita tidak boleh blame keimanan seseorang kerana itu hak Allah tetapi kita
kenalah blame diri kita sendiri yang sudah lupa kehendak-kehendak Allah.
Sekian Wassalam
smz
Black...@mts.rpi.edu
|> I will stop discuss about subject until tomorrow, since I also have a job
|> to do here at MIMOS, can't spend too much time on this. But that does not
|> mean I am giving up, at least I want do something for myself, to increase
Black Swan
wan sabeng wan adini
>sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) wrote:
>Ah a confession on how you are pouring tax payers' $$$ down the drain huh.
I am also a tax payer. What are you talking about?
wan sabeng wan adini
>Saudara yapin,
>Keimanan seseorang muslim hanya boleh dilihat oleh seorang manusia melalui
>perbuatannya.Apa yang ada didalam hati mereka hanya Allah sahaja yang
>mengetahui.Saya faham argumen saudara Yapin mengenai orang orang islam yang
>sudah lupa kepada ugama islam tetapi bukanlah menjadi hak kita untuk
>mengadili keimanan mereka. Jikalau Allah menjatuhkan bala pada orang-orang itu
Terima kaseh banyak-banyak kepada saudara S. Mohd Zain kerana penggunaan
bahasa yang boleh menyejukkan hati saya.
Walaumacamanapun, kita perlu juga patut belajar dari cerita-cerita dalam
Quran tentang umat-umat yang menderhakai Allah dan rasul-rasul mereka dan
macamana Allah membalas nya. Seperti kata saudara mungkin kita tidak boleh
membuat cocslusion seterusnya belajar atau mengambil iktibar dari apa yang
berlaku di dunia sekarang ini, tapi yang pastinya cerita-cerita dalam Quran
itu kita perlu ambil ikhtibar sebelum apa yang menimpa mereka akan menimpa
kita jugak sebagai umat akhir zaman.
Semoga Allah memberi taufik dan hidayat kepada kita semua.
wassalam.
Zon Kamariah Mohomed Wahie
>1.Islam sebagai satu sistem yang menyeluruh tidak ujud didunia ini sedangkan
>Allah telahpun berfirman maksudnya...sesiapa yang tidak berhakim kepada hukum
>hukum Allah adalah fsik/zalim/kafir.
>
>2.Sunnah Rasullulah dalam kenegaraan (Kekhalifahan) islam sudah kita lupakan.
>3.Perjuangan kita umat islam dimalaysia dan diseluruh dunia banyak yang
>bermotifkan nasionalisma,materialisma dll selain keredhaan Allah.
>
>3.Banyak lagi....
>
>Kita tidak boleh blame keimanan seseorang kerana itu hak Allah tetapi kita
>kenalah blame diri kita sendiri yang sudah lupa kehendak-kehendak Allah.
Sdr S Mohd Zain,
Izinkan saya mencelah.. tidak kah faktor-faktor di atas sudah cukup
mencerminkan kelemahan `iman' dan `taqwa' kita ummat Muhamad s.a.w.,
dalam menepati kehendak-kehendak Allah dalam kehidupan kita seharian.
Which means kenyataan sdr sebenarnya tidak jauh juga bezanya dengan apa
yang cuba di `highlite'kan oleh sdr. Sabeng, the difference in only on the
way he puts it. Akan tetapi ini tidak bermakna saya menyangkal kenyataan
sdr, malah saya sebenarnya menyokong kuat kenyataan sdr dan juga sdr
Sabeng sebelum ini.
Looks like we're back to square one ;)
atau mungkin saya yang `confused'?
-zonk
kkw...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> In article <2fol7c$r...@news.ysu.edu> af...@yfn.ysu.edu (Andrew Tan) writes:
>>In a previous article, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) says:
>
>>Tuan Sabeng:
>>
>> Diharap yang tuan jangan melepaskan peluang melayan saya pulak, okie?
>>Seperti yang dijemput tadi, sila beri "citation/references" dimana kitab Quran
>>tu terdapat ayat-ayat yang apabila diterjemaah membunyi seperti, "Adalah
>>kehendak Allah yang orang-orang Cina dan India disuruh membunuh orang
>>kaum Melayu" (lebih korang-lah, ya?).
>
> I think you do not understand my points when I said " Allah will order the
> chinese and indians to slaughter the malay if they forget their islamic
> identities. What I am trying to say here is that if muslims (any muslim
> nations) take things other than Islam as their guidence, Allah will use
> His creation (non-muslims, water, wind, land, fire) to destroy these muslims.
You tak tahu ke ade jugak orang Cina dan India beragama Islam di M'sia? Kenapa
pulak orang Cina dan India yang akan bunuh orang Melayu? Orang putih tak boleh
ke?
> Have you heard the stories of prophets before prophet Mohammaad and
> prophet Isa? If you like, I will quote few stories about them in the future.
These stories are about the same as those in the old testament.
>
>>Mr Sabeng:
>>
>> I'm waiting to see your references/citation in the Quran about
>>Allah ordering the Chinese and Indians to kill the Muslims. This is
>
> Allah does not mention which race kill which race because in the eyes of
> Allah, no race is superior or better than the other race, but what does
> make different in the eyes of Allah is our heart, whether we are believer
> or disbeliever. In the Quran Allah use the term believer or disbeliever.
Fine, why then you said the Chinese/Indians will be used by Allah, since Allah
Himself didn't say so???? A Malay could also be a disbeliever and thus Allah
could use him to kill his own people? Wouldn't this be better? So, the Malays
won't come at the Chinese for revenge?
>
> Prophet Mohammad s.a.w said, "if the believers indulge themselves in
> sinful manner openly and none of them advice others to stop it, Allah will
> send them suffer and torture before they are taken from this world"
Why then all the ministers are still having a good time back home? I'm
waiting...:)
Kkwong-who believes stupidity does not discriminate.
wan sabeng wan adini
>In article <2foo4c$1...@ms.mimos.my>, sab...@ms.mimos.my (wan sabeng wan adini) writes:
>could use him to kill his own people? Wouldn't this be better? So, the Malays
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>won't come at the Chinese for revenge?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Soooooo...is this the reason why are you so scared with my statement.
Anyway, I do not like to comment any further on this because because you
people have changed it into racial issue.
>> sinful manner openly and none of them advice others to stop it, Allah will
>> send them suffer and torture before they are taken from this world"
>
>Why then all the ministers are still having a good time back home? I'm
>waiting...:)
Because in Malaysia there are many group of muslims who do the job Allah
has ordered them, because they know realize how imporatant the job is.
Yapin
"A" mimosian.
Mr S. Mohd Zain
Memang saya bersetuju bahawa kisah-kisah didalam Al-Quran patut diambil
sebagai contoh agar kita tidak mengulangi kesilapan-kesilapan yang dilakukan
oleh manusia sebelum kita...tetapi bukankah kita sekarang sedang melakukan
kesilapan-kesilapan itu? Apa yang perlu kita lakukan sekarang ialah
memahami Islam dengan mendalam dan mencegah kemungkaran disekeliling kita
dan menggalakkan ma'ruf.
S Mohd Zain
Imperial College
Mr S. Mohd Zain
Assalamualaikum..
Saudari Zon,
Rasulullah pernah didatangi oleh Jibrail yang menanyakan mengenai
Iman dan Rasulullah menjawab bahawa Iman adalh kepercayaan sepenuh hati
kepada 6 rukun iman.Ketaqwaan kepada Allah adalah merupakan 'an Islamic
culture' as opposed to 'islamic knowledge'.Seorang yang bertaqwa kepada Allah
faham akan kehendakNya dan inginkan keredaanNya.Dia juga takut kepada
hukumanNya. Dan ketaqwaan merupakan manifestasi keimanan.Saya tidak menyangkal
bahaw apa yang saudari Zon katakan itu benar. Masaalhnya sekarang ialah ramai
orang yang terus menyalahkan 'keimanan' seseorang apabila timbul kecelakaan.
Contohnya seperti di Bosnia...keimanan orang-orang Bosnia dipersoalkan.
Apabila saya menyarankan beberapa perkara sebagai contoh keengkaran umat
Islam di dunia sekarang, saya cuma cuba hendak menonjolkan antara 2 masaalah
terbesar di dunia sekarang..memang benar ia berkaitan kuat dengan ketakwaan
kita..tetapi ramai diantara kita yang lupa dua perkara yang saya katakan tadi.
Sekarang terdapat ramai yang mengatakan kata-kata seperti..'bertaqwalah
kepada Allah' ...atau 'kuatkanlah iman kamu' etc.Apakah erti semua perkataan-
perkataan ini? Bila orang berkata 'itulah...ramai orang bosnia tak beriman..
patutnya diorang kenalah kuatkan iman...barulah tak jadi perang..'.
Apakah maksud mereka?Menyalahkan iman orang-orang Bosnia???
Ramai orang yang confuse apabila dikatakan kepada mereka..'bertaqwalah kepada
Allah.."...apa kena sembahyang banyak?Puasa tiap-tiap hari?Hafal 99 nama Allah?
Baca Quran tiap-tiap hari?
Ye kot??
Tak taulah..
Kenapa cuma mempersoalkan ibadah individu?mana hukum Allah yang wajib
dijalankan?Mana Khalifah yang wajib ada?
Sebab saya menyarankan dua contoh itu adalh supaya umat Islam sedar bahawa
dua sebab itu merupakan kemungkaran terbesar yang kita sama sama ada tanggung
jawab. Ketaqwaan kita tidak sempurna jika kedua-dua perkara itu tidak kita
laksanakan....itu merupakan dua perkara terbesar diantara banyak lagi
yang membawa pengertian taqwa..
Imam Shafie mengatakan bahawa Kekhalifahan merupakan 'ummul Faraid'..ibu
segala yang Fard...mana dia?
Wassalam
SMZ
Zul Abubakar
>I remember last time when I was doing my degree in London University, I
>visited few European Countries and I was very sad when I found many
>muslims do not know anything about Islam and they behave like westeners.
I'll have to agree with this statement. As a student in the States I've
had my share of encounters with students from around the world, and among
them were quite a few Muslims. I'm trying to refrain from generalizing,
but I can't help telling. I have met so many Turkish students who have
strayed far from the ways of Islam. They do not practice what is
preached, even once by themselves, and the y do not reflect at all the
qualities of a good Muslim. It is sad to think that Turkey, that was once
the upholder of the Islamic flag, triumphant against forces of other
religion trying to bring the world to their ways, is now a producer of
such ignorant Muslims who couldn't care less about their religion. I'm
afraid I think that now they have the name "Islam" only as a
historical complement to their image. A couple of Muslim sisters
that I was talking to was even amazed at the fact that I pray regularly.
That should NOT be the case. Praying is the pillar of Islam. That is the
antidote to the poisons of the world. The reminder to all Muslims that
they are indeed under the reign of Allah, not some extraneanous excercise
that we should marvel at when done! It is sad indeed to see these
happenings take place in such a modern and knowledgable time.
I apologize if this post offends anyone, and I know I have somewhat
disregarded the title of this newsgroup, but I think a small misplaced
seed in many flagrant flowers is not totally uncalled for. Thank you for
reading.
Zul
wan sabeng wan adini
>In article <2fvv28$b...@ms.mimos.my> zo...@ms.mimos.my (Zon Kamariah Mohomed Wahie) writes:
>Saudari Zon,
> Rasulullah pernah didatangi oleh Jibrail yang menanyakan mengenai
>Iman dan Rasulullah menjawab bahawa Iman adalh kepercayaan sepenuh hati
>kepada 6 rukun iman.Ketaqwaan kepada Allah adalah merupakan 'an Islamic
Bila kita membincangkan Islam, Iman, Takwa, bagi saya ia adalah satu tajuk
yang subjektif sekali. Kalau kita baca sepuluh buku, akan ada sepuluh
definasi Iman. Kalau kita tanya sepuluh orang ustaz, akan ada sepuluh
definasi takwa. Kerana apa? Pemahaman yang berbeza. Walaumacamanapun
definasi kita, tapi yang menunjukkan kita faham akan sebenarnya maksud
Iman, Islam dan Takwa ialah amalan kita. Orang yang beramal adalah orang
yang paling faham, tapi bukannya orang yang memberi definasi yang terbaik.
>Kenapa cuma mempersoalkan ibadah individu?mana hukum Allah yang wajib
>dijalankan?Mana Khalifah yang wajib ada?
Walaupun saya tidak mempersoalkan masalah individu setakat ini kerana saya
pun rasa, ini persoalan mereka dengan Allah. Tapi bagi saya tidak akan lahir
satu jemaah atau masyarakat yang betul jika individu dalam masyarakat itu
tidak betul. Saudara telah menarik perbincangan ini diperingkat khalifah.
Maksudnya saudara cuba bercakap tentang negara Islam. Bagi saya semuanya
berpunca dari amal manusia. Amal manusia bergantung kepada hati. Bila hati
manusia telah betul, maka akan wujudlah amalan-amalan yang baik.
Sebaliknya jika hati telah rosak, maka wujudlah manusia yang akan
merosakkan permukaan bumi ini. Bila amalan manusia telah betul, barulah
Allah hantar seseorang untuk jadi khalifah tanpa kita minta-minta. Jadi
maksudnya disini, khalifah bukan nya boleh diwujudkan dengan cara yang
kita buat sekarang, tapi cuma boleh diwujudkan melalui amalan. Tidak ada
sesuatu senjata dan kaedah penyelesaian melainkan dengan amalan.
Sebab itu lah kalau saudara mendengar cerita macamana Allah cuba memberi
tugas kekalifhahan kepada langit, sungai dsb, mereka tidak sanggup memikul
tugas ini. Tapi Allah telah cipta manusia dan beri tugas ini kepada mereka
bukan kerana manusia ini ada otak dan bijak, tetapi amalan yang mereka buat.
Jadi jika saudara ingin mengujudkan seorang khalifah, saudara perlu buat
usaha atas hati manusia, bukan dengan cara berkempen parti politik sana-sini.
Rasuulullah s.a.w buat pengorbanan sampai jatuh miskin dan tak makan beberapa
hari kerana buat usaha atas hati manusia. Rasullullah tak pernah kata, to
start, we should establish the khalifah first. Tapi apa yang Rsaullulah buat,
ialah uasaha atas hati manusia agar yakin dengan kebesaran Allah, bila
hati manusia telah betul, maka turunlah perintah Allah satu persatu untuk
wujudkan amalan. Bila amalan telah betul...baruuu lah datang kekhalifahan.
DAN..amalan cuma boleh diwujudkan bila hati manusia telah betul. Sekarang
ini masalah yang melanda umat Islam ialah masalah hati yang telah jauh
dari menyintai Allah dan Rasul Nya.
Saya bukan nak kata orang lain, saya sendiri dari bangun pagi sampai tidur
balik pada malamnya
Tentang apa yang berlaku di Bosnia, some muslims they learn from it and
some they don't. Ini bergantung kepada apa yang ada dalam hati. Kalau kita
tengok ustaz-ustaz di Malaysia, even masa tragedi kondominium Higland
Towers runtuh pun mereka dapat belajar sesuatu daridapanya. Ini kerana
kebesaran Allah yang ada dalam hati mereka. Allah hantar bala sikitpun
mereka anggap itu amaran dari Allah taala. Tapi kita yang mana hati telah
gelap dengan dosa dan noda...Allah hantar malapetaka besar mana pun kita
takkan ambil iktibar. Kita takut kalau Allah hantar malpetaka yang lebih
besar dari apa yang berlaku di Bosnia, kita akan maseh anggap itu cuma
scientific reasons.
Dengan ini saya ingin menutup perbinangan berkenaan dengan tajuk ini dan
saya tidak akan pergu lebih lanjut.
Terpulang kepada individu untuk menilai. Afterall we all are educated.
Wassalam.
Yapin
bts.
kkw...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> In article <2fsgc5$6...@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> tfr...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Keith K Wong) writes:
>>Mariah Abdul Rahim (mar...@ms.mimos.my) wrote:
>
>>There is no evidence to suggest that a global flood as described in the
>>Bible and the Koran occured. In fact, the evidence points the other way:
>
> I do not about the Bible, but I as a muslim believe strongly whatever
> written in the Quran is true eventhough there is no evidence or the
> evidence is the other way.
I totally agreed with this statement. In fact this is true for Christians too,
you have to believe in God in order to understand it and it can't go the other
way round. One Christian philosopher(St.Anselm) gave an example, before a
sculptor do anything, he has a very vague idea of what he's going to do or how
his sculpture is going to look like, but after he finished his work, he'll see
everything in perfect form.
Keith K Wong
:you have to believe in God in order to understand it and it can't go the other
:way round.
I just got off a rather long thread discussing precisely this issue in
another newsgroup. This problem is also known as `understanding follows
faith'.
The first problem is, which god? Explain why Jehovah deserves more
attention than the multitudes of other gods whom others claim to exist
or have existed.
Another problem with this, which manifests itself in so many religions, is
that the follower, once having made the initial step in believing,
*ignores* all evidence to the contrary. This is a bizzare formula that
can lead the follower to believe anything.
If you present a superior argument to a scientist, he will think and
say: "hmmm... never thought of that before. You could be right...".
However, if you gave it to a religious fundie, he would screw up his
eyes, stick his fingers in his ears, and shout "NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo
NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo!!!!" (as put by
another netter, whose name I have forgotten).
In fact, it says in several places in the bible that you need to make
yourself like a baby and lower your wisdom before you can enter the
kingdom of god (Matt 18:3, Luke 10:21, I Cor 1:26-29). To me, this is
perverse and unnecessary.
Your god has a real sense of humour if he gives us all this intellect
and expects us to rid ourselves of it before he will accept us.
After all, didn't Martin Luther (the founder of the Protestant church)
say: "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the
aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles
against the divine Word, treating with contempt all things that emanate
from God"?
PS: A message to anyone thinking of protesting. I don't see why I should
tolerate religious postings to s.c.m any more than you should tolerate my
replies. After all, if you don't like them, ignore them, right?
Zon Kamariah Mohomed Wahie
>kkw...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
>
-----interesting discussions deleted --->
>PS: A message to anyone thinking of protesting. I don't see why I should
>tolerate religious postings to s.c.m any more than you should tolerate my
>replies. After all, if you don't like them, ignore them, right?
Keith, I for one has no objection to the religious postings to scm..
if you look at the subject matter without our realizing it we at times tend to
make a detour from our original destination. I mean let us change the
above (sensitive) subject to something more relevant to the current
discussions you are having.
Thanx.
zonk - `zonked'
Alexander T Patrick
>
> :you have to believe in God in order to understand it and it can't go
the other
> :way round.
>
> I just got off a rather long thread discussing precisely this issue in
> another newsgroup. This problem is also known as `understanding follows
> faith'.
conversion mentioned in the bible that are based on evidence or fact. For
instance, Thomas in the gospel of John, refused to believe that Jesus rose
from the dead unless he see and feel with his own fingers the nail wounds
in Jesus' hands. ( This occured when Jesus met with his disciple after his
resurrection ).
> The first problem is, which god? Explain why Jehovah deserves more
> attention than the multitudes of other gods whom others claim to exist
> or have existed.
Simply because Jehovah or Yahweh is the God mentioned in the Bible.
> Another problem with this, which manifests itself in so many religions,
is
> that the follower, once having made the initial step in believing,
> *ignores* all evidence to the contrary. This is a bizzare formula that
> can lead the follower to believe anything.
That is very, very true. But I am definitely not one of them. In fact for
the last few years I've been looking at this issue seriously. Guess what?
I found that it takes more faith to believe what the
evolutionists,agnostics,and atheists say than what the Bible tell us on
so called controvesial issues. BTW, please repost the questions that you
asked on the flood subject and other Bible difficulties. I promise that I
look at those issues carefully. And you know what? You only discover a
very little portion of the Bible that seems contradict each other. Here
are some other examples :
a) Where did Cain get his wife?
b) How could the red sea parting possible?
c) How could Jonah survive in the belly of a whale?
> If you present a superior argument to a scientist, he will think and
> say: "hmmm... never thought of that before. You could be right...".
> However, if you gave it to a religious fundie, he would screw up his
> eyes, stick his fingers in his ears, and shout "NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo
> NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo!!!!" (as put by
> another netter, whose name I have forgotten).
This is true of many believers but bear in mind there ones like me who
is open minded.
> In fact, it says in several places in the bible that you need to make
> yourself like a baby and lower your wisdom before you can enter the
> kingdom of god (Matt 18:3, Luke 10:21, I Cor 1:26-29). To me, this is
> perverse and unnecessary.
Here, you took the scripture out of context. What Jesus meant was you must
have a little child type of faith to enter the kingdom of God.
> Your god has a real sense of humour if he gives us all this intellect
> and expects us to rid ourselves of it before he will accept us.
Yes, God does has a sense of humor in fact in the book of Psalm it says
that God laughs when His enemies try confront Him.
> After all, didn't Martin Luther (the founder of the Protestant church)
> say: "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the
> aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles
> against the divine Word, treating with contempt all things that emanate
> from God"?
He may be true to some extent but he does not represent the view of all
christians. Take what the Bible says if you want criticise christianity.
BTW, here are list of books that explained the Bible difficulties :
1) Evidence that demand verdict by Josh McDowell.(vol.1 & 2)
2) Answers by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart.
3) Reasons why skeptics should consider christianity by Josh McDowell and
Don Stewart.
There are more but I don't have the list with me.There are really worth
reading because these authors took into account all the scientific and
historical evidence.
> PS: A message to anyone thinking of protesting. I don't see why I should
> tolerate religious postings to s.c.m any more than you should tolerate
my
> replies. After all, if you don't like them, ignore them, right?
Please continue to post and so that so called religious quack will
finally silent.
> --
> o_o o_o O_o o_O O_O O_O @_@
> ( - ) ( o ) ( o ) ( o ) ( o ) ( O ) ( O )
> ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | ) ( | | )
>
> KEITH KUM-TUCK WONG, Medicine 4, University of Western Australia.
> "Scriptures: The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished
> from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are
> based." [Ambrose Bierce]
Good talking to you Keith . BTW, this is not the best place to discuss
religious beliefs.
Fong Whye Koon
Please have the courtesy of cross-posting this article to soc.culture.turkey
so that your Muslim sisters and brothers can give you some form of explanation
for such impiety. It's very sneaky of someone to talk bad (and pass judgement)
of other race/nationality behind their back. Just hate the attitude that some
Muslims are holier than other Muslims (is that the cause for the division
between Sunni and Shite muslims?). You have got to realise that religions
are assimiliated into different cultures, and thus each have their own
distinct flavour. Look at Kelantan now, recent newspaper reports say that
the state govt. have banned their former cultural heritages like wayang kulit
and some traditional theatre because they are a form of idolatry etc. Is this
a loss or a gain?
Faruq abd ul-Rafi
But if people plan to continue this discussion of the nature of religious
belief, a more appropriate subject line is in order. Lately, the thread
has had little or nothing to do with Malays, Indians, or Chinese killing one
another.
>Good talking to you Keith . BTW, this is not the best place to discuss
>religious beliefs.
As important as religion is in Malaysian culture, it is amazing that very few
people seem to be able to discuss it in that context. Why do we see so much
GENERAL religious discussion in soc.culture.malaysia but so little discussion
of the role of various religions IN MALAYSIA?
_____
Faruq abd ul-Rafi (R. A. Nelson)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Department of Philosophy
E-mail: fa...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu