Nor Aishah Felicia Bokhari
john
I read the NST, The Star and The Sun, yet I didn't come across this story !
Is
there a plot among the media that certain stories should only be told in
certain languages ? Only the Malay language papers reported it (even as
front-page news !)
I find the same is true between the BM news on TV 1 and the News on TV 2.
Certain news is only reported in the BM news.
A.H. Gan
no point blow out of proportion! it is more on personal choice!!!!!!!!
john wrote in message <6aj3h2$k...@news2.jaring.my>...
mj...@pc.jaring.my
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 06:29:48 +0800, "john" <jo...@pc.jaring.my> wrote:
>I read the NST, The Star and The Sun, yet I didn't come across this story !
>so
>
>
>
So what is the story?????????
Don't keep me in suspense.
PoiNT BLaNk
the question is...
will moslems let this be a personal choice for Felicia Bokhari??
there are cases where they dont even let corpses go !
A.H. Gan wrote in message <6aj8he$2ke$1...@news.tm.net.my>...
abdi
Sesetengah orang tak faham langsung tentang sentimen Orang Melayu.
Kalau hendak hidup dengan aman dengan orang Melayu faham lah sikit
tentang adat dan sentimen Melayu. Bukan bangsa/kaum asing sahaja yang
betul. Kalau tak faham tentang sentimen Melayu, tak hairan lah kalau
orang Melayu masih menganggap bukan Melayu sebagai "asing". Didalam
cerita dan siri ini di diskusi hanya bertumpu kepada kebebasan tanpa
faham tentang kita semua ini hanya lah Hamba Allah. Banyak yang tidak
faham tentang konsep Ugama Allah.
Baca lah Koraan. Fahamilah kandunginya, buatlah is penyuluh.
Fahamilah Hadis. Buatlahnya sebagai susur.
Kita hanya didunia ini buat sementara, seumpama burung yang hinggap di
pohon yang tinggi dan rendang. Ingatlah pohon itu pun kepunyaan Allah.
Perjalanan masih jauh.
Juga tak guna menyuruk dengan alasan 'blowing the point out of
proportion'. Fahamlah dahulu detail tentang mengapa perkara ini
menyetuh ke senubari mendalam orang Melayu. Itulah fasalnya kalau dah
sampai di rantau ini terlambat sedikit, tak faham langsung tentang
adat resam rantau ini. Kalau kurang adat mungkin kurang ajar.
Ya Allah, selamatkan mereka yang telah sesat. Tunjukkanlah mereka
jalan yang lurus. Lindungilah mereka dan saya sendiri dari Syaitan
yang direjam.
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:16:38 -0000, "A.H. Gan" <ahga...@tm.net.my>
wrote:
Fearless
Come out a law totally ban the inter-marriage between races in Malaysia to
avoid all sorts of disputes.
abdi
One thing about Islam which you have to understand, once you are in it
you cannot get out of it. Its a faith (and a way of life) and not an
acting in the "stage" of life. You cannot play "now you see now you
don't". Those born into Islam they are already there. Itu adalah
Rahmat Allah. Choice? No. Do they practice it? That is between him/her
and Allah, man only advises. There are good Muslims and bad Muslims,
sinful Muslim and unrighteous Muslims, but they are Muslims.
Those not born a Muslim still have the choice.
I must tell you that there were Muslims who converted; even one of
Prophet Muhammads trusted faithfuls have converted into Chritianity,
and died a Christian. I have not read anywhere whether Muhammad was
angry or not but I presume he regreted that it ever happened. Is he in
Hell or in Heaven? I don't know, I have not read anywhere on that as
well. We will have to wait and see in the other life. But then again
in those days I presume the Ahlul Kitab (People of the Book) was still
applicable.
Cheers.
On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:42:16 GMT, myl...@pop.jaring.my (abdi) wrote:
>I think you miss the point here. Inter marriage yes, but between a
>Muslim and a non-Muslim, Syariah Laws has to apply. Islam is a way of
>life, it crosses borders and race but Syariah stands supreme.
Fearless
john wrote:
> I read the NST, The Star and The Sun, yet I didn't come across this story !
> Is
> there a plot among the media that certain stories should only be told in
> certain languages ? Only the Malay language papers reported it (even as
> front-page news !)
> I find the same is true between the BM news on TV 1 and the News on TV 2.
> Certain news is only reported in the BM news.
An excerpt from SCMP, Hong Kong.
Malaysia
Religious row over
lovesick Christian
convert
ASSOCIATED PRESS in Kuala Lumpur
A woman who renounced Islam to marry her
Chinese Christian boyfriend has touched off an
uproar in multi-ethnic Malaysia, where race
relations are often sensitive.
Nor'aishah Bokhari came to public attention after
she filed a 20-page complaint on January 16 in the
High Court, accusing her family of keeping her
captive for 41 days with the help of police to
prevent her from marrying her sweetheart, Joseph
Lee.
Ms Bokhari, a Malay Muslim, said she escaped on
December 30 and both she and Lee were now in
hiding despite appeals by her family to come out
and embrace Islam again.
"I love my family very much but how can I continue
loving them after what they have done to me and
my boyfriend . . . they are hunting us like deer," Ms
Bokhari, 25, wrote in her letter to the High Court.
The letter was signed, "yours in tears and pain".
It was submitted in court by her lawyer, who has
refused to say where the couple is.
In Malaysia, where Islam is the official religion,
inter-racial marriages are rare.
Still, none of this would have flared into controversy
had it not been for Ms Bokhari's public renunciation
of Islam, which is almost unheard of because of a
deep-rooted taboo against religious conversion,
even though it is legal.
Ms Bokhari, a former bank clerk, said she
converted to Catholicism in October of her own
free will.
"This issue is serious because it involves the dignity
of Islam," said Mahmud Mohamad, an official of
the ruling United Malays National Organisation in
charge of religious issues.
Ms Bokhari claims her brother and father helped
three unidentified men bundle her off in a car while
two policemen pinned down her boyfriend.
The incident occurred on November 20 in the foyer
of her lawyer's office block in Kuala Lumpur, she
said.
Police did not return calls seeking comment.
Since the race riots of 1969, Malaysian leaders
have been fearful that too open a debate on ethnic
issues could upset social harmony.
On Sunday, a minister in the Prime Minister's
Department, Abdul Hamid Othman, warned the
public against playing up the issue.
"If a woman desires to marry a non-Muslim, she
should urge the man to embrace Islam, and not
vice-versa," Mr Abdul Hamid was reported as
having said.
In her court complaint, Ms Bokhari claims she was
driven to her aunt's house in the southern state of
Johore, where the family made her listen to sermons
by Islamic teachers every day and forced her to
undergo rituals by witch doctors.
On December 30, she had snuck out of the house
and fled with Lee, who was waiting outside in a car.
Lee now faces kidnapping charges filed by Ms
Bokhari's family.
Fearless
abdi wrote:
> >>Come out a law totally ban the inter-marriage between races in Malaysia to
> >>avoid all sorts of disputes.
The big gapof opinion between muslim and non-muslim here is the right of freedom
to choose a religion. I used to work in Indonesia which has at least 170 million
muslims (85 % population) and their religion policy is allowing an individual to
choose own religion even she/her born in a moslem's family. Unless this country
can adopt same kind of policy, if not we better totally ban the intermarriage
between races (coincidentally are from different religions) to avoid such havoc
again. For the reactions shown so far, the religion issues always tied to racist
sentiments whenever an intermarriage is involved muslim and non-muslim.
Ken!!!
> "This issue is serious because it involves the dignity
> of Islam," said Mahmud Mohamad, an official of
> the ruling United Malays National Organisation in
> charge of religious issues.
>
this will probably get me flamed big time...
but funny how 'protecting dignity' can allow them to act like
kidnappers, and with total disrespect to the wishes of an
individual....
> "If a woman desires to marry a non-Muslim, she
> should urge the man to embrace Islam, and not
> vice-versa," Mr Abdul Hamid was reported as
> having said.
so, there is fascism... an individual cannot choose their own faith,
even tho' religion is a personal affair between the individual and her
chosen God....
> On December 30, she had snuck out of the house
> and fled with Lee, who was waiting outside in a car.
>
> Lee now faces kidnapping charges filed by Ms
> Bokhari's family.
i fail to see how a mature adult woman can be voluntarily kidnapped by
her fiance to escape the wrath of her family who did kidnap her....
sheesh!!
*************************************
remove SPAMMERSDIE for correspondence
*************************************
eon
Fearless wrote:
yeah....that's right man.....banned all that minor-minor things which malaysian
are too
worried in which they tend too forget the real problems are their very own economy
crisis!!!!
Fearless
eon wrote:
> yeah....that's right man.....banned all that minor-minor things which malaysian
> are too
> worried in which they tend too forget the real problems are their very own economy
> crisis!!!!
If someone plays the religion and race snesitive issue to gain the political
popularity. Hey...the consequences is minor minor if people try to kill each others.
Let forget about the economic development in an unstable and unrest country. The Sri
Lanka is bad mirror for all malaysians !
Most of people here take the racial harmony for granted and think it as a minor issue.
Go ask around any investors do they like to invest in an instable country and let me
know your answer.
xpdc
eon wrote:
> Fearless wrote:
>
> > abdi wrote:
> >
> > > >>Come out a law totally ban the inter-marriage between races in Malaysia to
> > > >>avoid all sorts of disputes.
> >
> > The big gapof opinion between muslim and non-muslim here is the right of freedom
> > to choose a religion. I used to work in Indonesia which has at least 170 million
> > muslims (85 % population) and their religion policy is allowing an individual to
> > choose own religion even she/her born in a moslem's family. Unless this country
> > can adopt same kind of policy, if not we better totally ban the intermarriage
> > between races (coincidentally are from different religions) to avoid such havoc
> > again. For the reactions shown so far, the religion issues always tied to racist
> > sentiments whenever an intermarriage is involved muslim and non-muslim.
>
> yeah....that's right man.....banned all that minor-minor things which malaysian
> are too
> worried in which they tend too forget the real problems are their very own economy
> crisis!!!!
Oooo i see...
All your life is about money, isn't it???
Or money is your god???
Charles (Joe) Stahelin
In article <6aqmob$o...@news2.jaring.my>, john <jo...@pc.jaring.my> writes
>For those english educated people who were not privileged to read the full
>story, here it is :
>
>
>
>[ A UUEncoded file (Nor Aishah - English.doc) was included here. ]
>
Thank you.
--
Charles (Joe) Stahelin
Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK
Politikus
Fearless wrote:
>
> abdi wrote:
>
> > >>Come out a law totally ban the inter-marriage between races in Malaysia to
> > >>avoid all sorts of disputes.
>
> The big gapof opinion between muslim and non-muslim here is the right of freedom
> to choose a religion. I used to work in Indonesia which has at least 170 million
> muslims (85 % population) and their religion policy is allowing an individual to
> choose own religion even she/her born in a moslem's family. Unless this country
> can adopt same kind of policy, if not we better totally ban the intermarriage
> between races (coincidentally are from different religions) to avoid such havoc
> again. For the reactions shown so far, the religion issues always tied to racist
> sentiments whenever an intermarriage is involved muslim and non-muslim.
What for? the current policy of having the non muslim
convert to Islam is good enough for me. As for interracial
marriages I have no problems with that.
___________________
I am always right. Anyone who disagrees
with me shall be put to death.
Politikus
>
> Ya Allah, selamatkan mereka yang telah sesat. Tunjukkanlah mereka
> jalan yang lurus. Lindungilah mereka dan saya sendiri dari Syaitan
> yang direjam.
>
Sokong 100%. Orang bukan islam kat sini memang tak faham
betapa sensitifnya kes ini.
Fearless
Politikus wrote:
> What for? the current policy of having the non muslim
> convert to Islam is good enough for me. As for interracial
> marriages I have no problems with that.
Satu anak dara kahwin sama orang beragama lain and beliau ingin memasuki agama dengan
pilihna sendiri, sudah riuh satu negara. Anak dara orang lain lari dari rumah tak apa,
tapi kamu punya anak dara hilang sudah mahu mengamok.
With that kind of inferior thinking in the Malay community and some more want the
sons / daughters other races to convert to Islam in any inter-marriage without
respecting the rights of religion freedom.. This is tantamount to a barbarian !
Ken!!!
what about the other way around? moslems convert to other religions?
if that is disallowed, isn't that fascism?
and i thought religion was personal... between the person and
his/her/its chosen God...
On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 17:59:42 -0800, Politikus <lub...@tikus.com>
wrote:
>What for? the current policy of having the non muslim
>convert to Islam is good enough for me. As for interracial
>marriages I have no problems with that.
*************************************
Fearless
Politikus wrote:
> Sokong 100%. Orang bukan islam kat sini memang tak faham
> betapa sensitifnya kes ini.
Agama bukan orang Islam pun ada sensitifnya. Adakah orang lain menghina
agama Islam dalam kes ini ???
Kamu ini macam tingkahlaku Amerika, kepentingan sendiri sahaja diberi
keutamaan.
PoliTikus
> worried in which they tend too forget the real problems are their very own economy
> crisis!!!!
Waaah.. tbe economy takes precedence over the dignity of Islam?
*stunned silence*
_____________________________
I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
Those who disagree with me are idiots.
Doctor M
I don't care much for Nor Aishah. Obviously her family has done all they
can. Apparently her dad said she is eductaed enough to be an ustazah.
Well, if she wants to be a non-muslim, I have no control over that. Let it
be.
Zamani
Doctor M
That is what differentitates Islam and other religion. Islam is a way of
life. Christianity belongs in the church. When you do business, for a
muslim there is an Islamic way of doing things. But for others, religion
does not play any role in business. That is only one example.
Many people would like to see Islam relegated to being a "personal issue"
only. Just like christianity. Separation between the church and state.
That will not quite happen in Malaysia. Malaysia is not an Islamic
country. The govt. implement certain laws only.
Zamani
abdi
Zaman Kiai Hj. Salleh di Johore sudah berlalu. Sekarang apa orang
Melayu bolih buat. Sudah tertambat dan sudah terlambat. Mahu kejar
kekayaan, anak dara sendiri pun tergadai.
Biar putih mata jangan putih tulang.
Ken!!!
On Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:18 -0800, Doctor M <zza...@scudc.scu.edu>
wrote:
>That is what differentitates Islam and other religion. Islam is a way of
>life. Christianity belongs in the church. When you do business, for a
>muslim there is an Islamic way of doing things. But for others, religion
>does not play any role in business. That is only one example.
do you have any idea what you are talking about? if not, please
refrain from telling others things you have absolutely no idea
about...
>Many people would like to see Islam relegated to being a "personal issue"
>only. Just like christianity. Separation between the church and state.
>That will not quite happen in Malaysia. Malaysia is not an Islamic
>country. The govt. implement certain laws only.
well, isn't religion a personal issue? it is my soul.. the state does
not have one, and what i wanna do with my soul is not the affaits of
the state.... therefore it is a personal issue...
so why all this?
HITMAN
Politikus wrote:
>
> Fearless wrote:
> >
> > abdi wrote:
> >
> > > >>Come out a law totally ban the inter-marriage between races in Malaysia to
> > > >>avoid all sorts of disputes.
> >
> > The big gapof opinion between muslim and non-muslim here is the right of freedom
> > to choose a religion. I used to work in Indonesia which has at least 170 million
> > muslims (85 % population) and their religion policy is allowing an individual to
> > choose own religion even she/her born in a moslem's family. Unless this country
> > can adopt same kind of policy, if not we better totally ban the intermarriage
> > between races (coincidentally are from different religions) to avoid such havoc
> > again. For the reactions shown so far, the religion issues always tied to racist
> > sentiments whenever an intermarriage is involved muslim and non-muslim.
>
> convert to Islam is good enough for me. As for interracial
> marriages I have no problems with that.
>
What is all this biasness about?
The Tan Sri
Fearless wrote:
>
> Politikus wrote:
>
> > What for? the current policy of having the non muslim
> > convert to Islam is good enough for me. As for interracial
> > marriages I have no problems with that.
>
> pilihna sendiri, sudah riuh satu negara.
Itulah yang bagus! Kalau ini berlaku satu negara senyap ...
Itu lagi merisaukan.. sekurang kurangya masih ada yang
peduli kat malaysia ni....
dan mana mana gadis yang sama situasi dengan si aishah,
tengah terpikir nak murtad sebab nak bersama dengan boyfriend,
sah sah depa fikir dua kali dah sekarang :)
Lelaki kat Malaysia ni ada 10 juta. Tuhan itu Satu.
> Anak dara orang lain lari dari rumah tak apa,
> tapi kamu punya anak dara hilang sudah mahu mengamok.
>
Kalau anak _aku_ lari dari rumah sah sah la aku mengamok!!!!!
Kalau anak _kau_ lari dari rumah kau buat tak kisah la?
Kalau anak dara _orang_ lari dari rumah, aku tumpang sedih,
siapa kata aku buat dono???
> With that kind of inferior thinking in the Malay community
What inferior thinking? We are safeguarding our community.
If you think your mode of thinking is superior to ours ,
go have lunch win Nanyang Avenger and point blank, because YOU
are every bit as blindly racist as those two degenerates.
>and some more want the
> sons / daughters other races to convert to Islam in any inter-marriage without
> respecting the rights of religion freedom..
Religious freedom? You have a choice. You want to
marry, convert, don't want to convert, don't marry. Haven't
yet heard of a conversion at parang point :) . If I
fall in love with a christian girl and she don't want to
convert, sadly, I have to say goodbye. Of course, this is
a moot point because I am happy with Puan Sri :)
10 million women out there. Is it SO difficult to find
one of the same religion?
> This is tantamount to a barbarian !
This is tantamount to blind ignorance of our sensitivities.
_____________
Anyone disagreeing with me is an idiot.
PoliTikus
Doctor M wrote:
>
> I don't care much for Nor Aishah. Obviously her family has done all they
> can. Apparently her dad said she is eductaed enough to be an ustazah.
So if this person who has enough knowledge to be an
ustazah suddenly gets lonely and wants more of her kind,
and goes into christian missionary activities on (for example)
the malaysian students overseas,
she would be a damn effective weapon against Islam, know
what I mean??
I still say the best resolution is for her and her darling
boyfriend to be victims of a fatal road accident. Not that
I wish they will die, but that's the best way to handle
the controversy.
Ken!!!
On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 16:56:29 -0800, PoliTikus <lub...@tikus.com>
wrote:
>So if this person who has enough knowledge to be an
>ustazah suddenly gets lonely and wants more of her kind,
>and goes into christian missionary activities on (for example)
>the malaysian students overseas,
>she would be a damn effective weapon against Islam, know
>what I mean??
is there a worldwide conspiracy to use this woman as an 'effective'
weapon against islam?
is there actually a conspiracy to do islam in?
all i see is a bunch of idiots in the middle east trying to do the
jews in... and the israelis (not to be mistaken for the jews) really
do not give a shit about islam or arab unity or shit like that...
>I still say the best resolution is for her and her darling
>boyfriend to be victims of a fatal road accident. Not that
>I wish they will die, but that's the best way to handle
>the controversy.
that is one of the most sickening things i have ever heard uttered...
if you are representative of your religion, then you really need the
grace of god.... coz you are acting like and animal... actually less
than an animal....
pro...@nospam.shop
For goodness sake James, what is your purpose of crossposting this here,
in soc.culture.singapore????
Isn't it ethical to let it remain in SCM or, if you really must, to post
it to the relevant religious newsgroups??
Or do you relish at the prospect of starting a frivolous thread on
religious conversions in SCS !!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????
Or do you have some other motives, not quite apparent?
BTW, why don't you heed your own advice on that introspection bit before
you dispense with condescending prognoses for others.....and while you are
at it, pl see if you can spot anything amiss in your own statements.
James Lee wrote:
> But if Islam is right, and she is wrong, as Muslims believe her to be,
> there should be no fear for Islam. It will not be difficult to shoot
> her arguments down. But if Islam has never done much of introspection,
> then there will come a time when this will happen, and it may happen
> with a great deal of unexpectance.
>
> And why must you think that she may become a missionary because she is
> lonely? How about the many Muslim converts who are now doing dawah
> work? They are lonely? I guess not, but that they sincerely believe in
> what they are believing, and wanting others to know as well.
>
> There may be some unscrupulous ones, but I think most believe in their
> cause.
>
> May I suggest that this is a time of reflection for Malaysian Muslims
> to think about these issues, and make them clear to Muslims and
> non-Muslims, so that there will be no confusion in the future.
>
> Peace to you.
>
> --
> James
tukangkarut@feedme
> > What for? the current policy of having the non muslim
> > convert to Islam is good enough for me. As for interracial
> > marriages I have no problems with that.
> >
> What about a policy where the Muslim can convert to another religion?
I have MANY problems with that. Suffice to say
I will NOT let such a policy pass.
> What is all this biasness about?
Upholding the dignity of my religion.
___________________
> > I am always right. Anyone who disagrees
> > with me shall be put to death.
------------------------------------------------------------------
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HITMAN
tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
> > > What for? the current policy of having the non muslim
> > > convert to Islam is good enough for me. As for interracial
> > > marriages I have no problems with that.
> > >
> > What about a policy where the Muslim can convert to another religion?
>
> I have MANY problems with that. Suffice to say
> I will NOT let such a policy pass.
>
> > What is all this biasness about?
>
> Upholding the dignity of my religion.
>
Have you ever considered other religions' dignity as well?
Charles (Joe) Stahelin
In article <6bagga$s...@tweety.cs.utexas.edu>, James Lee
<le...@cs.utexas.edu> writes
> In a multi-religious society, I believe it is important
>that this comes out in the open, and if it is wrong, to show it. I
>hate it when other Chinese tell me that Malays (and so Muslims to a
>large extent) are lazy. Non-Muslims are asking questions about what
>will happen, what will the govt of Malaysia do, what do the ulamaks
>want, and do the Muslims in Singapore agree with Malaysia's. I have
>always asked these questions myself, but I have no answer, and I don't
>know clear-cut cases. But this case throws a lot out.
----------------------
Having lived and worked amongst Muslims in Southern Arabia,
India/Pakistan and Western Malaysia I can assure anyone who is
interested that each of these groups has its own characteristics and
personality. In multi-religious societies issues which affect more
than one of the religious groups should be dealt with the greatest
delicacy. Ultimately this matter will, if all concerned behave
themselves properly, be dealt with within the provisions of the law.
Both Malaysia and Singapore are secular states and have separate legal
codes: this issue is, therefore, of purely academic interest to those
living outside the jurisdiction of the appropriate Court - or in
places like Texas.
The Tan Sri
HITMAN wrote:
>
> tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
> >
> > > > What for? the current policy of having the non muslim
> > > > convert to Islam is good enough for me. As for interracial
> > > > marriages I have no problems with that.
> > > >
> > > What about a policy where the Muslim can convert to another religion?
> >
> > I have MANY problems with that. Suffice to say
> > I will NOT let such a policy pass.
> >
> Who are you to pass policies? You the government ah?
I am a registered voter and a Malaysian citizen.
> > > What is all this biasness about?
> >
> > Upholding the dignity of my religion.
> >
> Have you ever considered other religions' dignity as well?
>
And since when has this become a matter of other
religion's dignity?? This is a strictly malay,Muslim
matter.
______________________________
I am always right. Only idiots disagree with me.
loud
We are all Malaysian, regardless of race and religion. Anything that
threaten a life, freedom or safety of a Malaysian is our responsibility to
voice our opinion. We cannot correct the world but atleast we can start to
correct what is wrong in Malaysia.
If a life of a Malaysian is threaten, it reflects all Mlaysian.
--
Regards,
Loud
The Tan Sri <bl...@bounce.com> wrote in article
<34DE5A...@bounce.com>...
Ken!!!
it is the business of all religions when one get persecuted just
because he/she/it leaves one... this would show that the other
religions will be persecuted if one member of a community leaves one
religion and embraces another....
do you refuse to see this or is this too complex for you to see it?
it is by no means just a malay/moslem thing.....
On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:22:23 -0800, The Tan Sri <bl...@bounce.com>
wrote:
>> > > What is all this biasness about?
>> >
>> > Upholding the dignity of my religion.
>> >
>> Have you ever considered other religions' dignity as well?
>>
>
>And since when has this become a matter of other
>religion's dignity?? This is a strictly malay,Muslim
>matter.
>
*************************************
thet...@nospam-2157.hotmail.com
> it is the business of all religions when one get persecuted just
> because he/she/it leaves one... this would show that the other
> religions will be persecuted if one member of a community leaves one
> religion and embraces another....
be persecuted much in Malaysia. Or a Buddhist converting
to a Christian.
The debate is what to do with this girl, whether to
hope she comes back to her senses or give her up or
take action against her....
> do you refuse to see this or is this too complex for you to see it?
> it is by no means just a malay/moslem thing.....
should allow malays to leave the religion or not, whether
to follow the Constitution or Islamic law.....
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Democratic
True, everybody should be free to practice what their beleive. The muslim
should be free to practice the law of their religion without inference from
the others. It is the right of the muslims to practice the Islamic law.
Malaysians should be tolerance and mature enough to stop critisizing the
practice of the other faiths including the faith of Islam. Every religion
has their right to practice their religious teaching including the muslims
In the issue of Aishah, the non muslims should learn to be tolerance to the
law of muslims. It is very undemocratic for some non muslim to impose their
value on the muslims. The muslims has their values and the non muslims also
has their own values. It is also very unfeeling for some non muslims to
expressed certain opinion which really hurts the feeling of many fellow
muslim. Lack of knowledge and understanding about the culture and teaching
of the muslims would probably be a reason. Although people should be free to
express their opinion, they should also practice some limitation in it.
Otherwise anybody could just verbally abused anybody, anybody could just
defamed anybody...
For the sake of the country, Malaysian citizen should make attempt to
understand each others and not just pertaining to cultures but religion and
beleive.
llim
Ken:
If she is still missing, this is probably what happened!
The Majlis Agama Islam kidnapped her so that they don't have to deal with
this embarrassing problem.
have you thought of that?
LL
Ken!!! <na...@pacific.net.SPAMMERSDIE.sg> wrote in article
<34df230...@news.pacific.net.sg>...
> it is the business of all religions when one get persecuted just
> because he/she/it leaves one... this would show that the other
> religions will be persecuted if one member of a community leaves one
> religion and embraces another....
>
> do you refuse to see this or is this too complex for you to see it?
>
> it is by no means just a malay/moslem thing.....
>
>
>
piper
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 01:49:58 -0000, "Democratic"
<democ...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
[snip]
>In the issue of Aishah, the non muslims should learn to be tolerance to the
>law of muslims. It is very undemocratic for some non muslim to impose their
>value on the muslims.
[snip]
I am not a Malaysian, and I will preface my remarks by saying that it
is up to Malaysians to decide what laws you want to live by.
Having said that, if a MAJORITY of Malaysians want to execute a person
for any reason, not allowing that person to be executed would be
anti-democratic. (Of course, it has not been established that a
majority of Malaysian citizens want Nor Aishah to be executed for
apostacy, and this probably will never be established in the future by
a vote.)
But even if a majority of Malaysian citizens (or even a majority of
Muslims - which would be a minority of Malaysians) wanted her dead,
there exists the question of what individual rights you might want to
protect from the "tyranny of the majority". We dealt with this
question in the U.S., and it resulted in our Bill of Rights, which
guarantees such rights as freedom of religion, free speech, freedom of
assembly, the right to a trial by jury of one's peers, etc.
Make no mistake about it: The Bill of Rights is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, since
it protects individual rights against the "tyranny of the majority"
which many U.S. "founding fathers" feared.
I freely acknowledge that, in a real sense, it is not my business
whether Malays kill another Malay, but I think it's highly problematic
for you to reason that non-Malays are being "undemocratic" and
"impos[ing] their values on the muslims" if they think Islamic law in
Malaysia should not extend to killing a person for apostacy. The
implication is that non-Muslims' opinions shouldn't have equal weight
in determining certain life-and-death matters in Malaysia.
Is _THAT_ "democratic"?
Michael
llim
I will agree with you only if it only affects one person. You should have
the right to practice on yourself but it is wrong to force your belief
onto others against their will.
That's not democratic but Hippocratic.
Just Talk.
Democratic <democ...@mailexcite.com> wrote in article
<6bnec3$fea$1...@news.tm.net.my>...
Panot
llim wrote:
>
> Ken:
>
> If she is still missing, this is probably what happened!
> The Majlis Agama Islam kidnapped her so that they don't have to deal with
> this embarrassing problem.
> have you thought of that?
>
> LL
>
Hey man!
Is this a joke or what !!!!!!!
Nak Tau
michael
In article <34dfc503...@news.interport.net> pi...@interport.net writes:
>
>On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 01:49:58 -0000, "Democratic"
><democ...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>In the issue of Aishah, the non muslims should learn to be tolerance to the
>>law of muslims. It is very undemocratic for some non muslim to impose their
>>value on the muslims.
>[snip]
>
>I am not a Malaysian, and I will preface my remarks by saying that it
>is up to Malaysians to decide what laws you want to live by.
>
>Having said that, if a MAJORITY of Malaysians want to execute a person
>for any reason, not allowing that person to be executed would be
>anti-democratic. (Of course, it has not been established that a
>majority of Malaysian citizens want Nor Aishah to be executed for
>apostacy, and this probably will never be established in the future by
>a vote.)
I think Gandhi once said something to the effect that in matters
of conscience, majority doesn't apply. :)
regards,
michael ... afn2...@afn.org
Ken!!!
On 9 Feb 1998 23:50:17 GMT, thet...@NoSPAM-2157.hotmail.com wrote:
>I don't think a Christian converting to a Hindu will
>be persecuted much in Malaysia. Or a Buddhist converting
>to a Christian.
but a moslem converting to another will? double standards? bias?
bigotry?
>The debate is what to do with this girl, whether to
>hope she comes back to her senses or give her up or
>take action against her....
it is her decision, and not for the community to 'give her up' or
'take action against her' for making a decision between herself and
her chosen God...
>Or are you trying to muddy the clear water ?
the water is so muddy i cannot do anything to worsen it... it is a
discussion about personal liberties.... it is not an attack on
anything religious... or you cannot see the difference?
>It IS a Malay, Muslim matter. This is about whether we
>should allow malays to leave the religion or not, whether
>to follow the Constitution or Islamic law.....
and those who are not moslems will have to face this law also? and
those who were moslems are made to face these laws?
no.. this is not a malay/moslem matter anymore... by extrapolating
this debate, anyone can incite religious riots by claiming their
enemies to have left the islamic faith (even if the poor sod was never
a moslem) and leave it to the mob....
tatak
..ahhh...words of wisdom..rare.. blows fresh..like the gentle mist of
evening rain upon parched earth...
tatak...
Democratic <democ...@mailexcite.com> wrote in article
<6bnec3$fea$1...@news.tm.net.my>...
> True, everybody should be free to practice what their beleive.
> Malaysians should be tolerance and mature
>
> In the issue of Aishah, the non muslims should learn to be tolerance to
the
> law of muslims.
>. It is also very unfeeling
selina
All this lady did was to switch camps. Why are muslims so upset about this?
The other gods any lesser? We don't hear anything when non-muslims convert
to Islam. So.. let her be..let her find her own way..
tukangkarut@feedme
> All this lady did was to switch camps.
There are other words to describe that.
Betrayal is one that comes to mind.
> Why are muslims so upset about this?
We still care enough for one another, when one
leaves the faith all of us are naturally concerned.
> The other gods any lesser?
Do you REALLY need to ask?
> We don't hear anything when non-muslims convert
> to Islam.
You will also hear
nothing from us when non muslims convert to other non
muslim religions.
> So.. let her be..let her find her own way..
>
When one is lost we guide him/her back.
That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
_______
Anyone disagreeing with me is automatically wrong.
Charles (Joe) Stahelin
In article <6bo4np$f19$1...@orthanc.reference.com>, thetansri@NoSPAM-
2157.hotmail.com writes
>It IS a Malay, Muslim matter. This is about whether we
>should allow malays to leave the religion or not, whether
>to follow the Constitution or Islamic law.....
Precise quotations from the Constitution and from Islamic Law would
enable everyone to understand what this is all about. I very much
doubt if many know the letter of the law - and, if this is so the
comments on this matter mean little but probably contain much that is
based on emotion or prejudice, or both.
Stone Cold Steve Austin
tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
>
> There are other words to describe that.
> Betrayal is one that comes to mind.
>
You mean betray the muslim faith? Was anyone hurt by this?
Eevryday, lots of people change their beliefs in religion, philosophy
etc. so is there any harm done? NO!!
> > Why are muslims so upset about this?
>
> We still care enough for one another, when one
> leaves the faith all of us are naturally concerned.
>
Nobody likes to hear people leaving the faith they believe in...
...however, there is a difference between allowing people to leave
and forcing them to stay.
> > The other gods any lesser?
>
> Do you REALLY need to ask?
>
I'm interested in your answer....yes or no??
> You will also hear
> nothing from us when non muslims convert to other non
> muslim religions.
>
There should be nothing heard from anybody should a person convert
from one religion to another.....regardless of what that religion is.
> When one is lost we guide him/her back.
> That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
>
Guiding back is not forcing back or conducting manhunts or doing it
with threats.
> _______
> Anyone disagreeing with me is automatically wrong.
>
In this case, YOU ARE WRONG!
COMDCTRL
HA ha ha , freedom of religion in malayisa is a joke. If you don't follow the
muslims way ( mind you NOT islams way ) death is the only answer. This is the
way mulsims all over the world pride themselves in....in thier ability to kill
in the name of Allah.
COMDCTRL
>
>
>I will agree with you only if it only affects one person. You should have
>the right to practice on yourself but it is wrong to force your belief
>onto others against their will.
>That's not democratic but Hippocratic.
whats 'hippocratic' ? some new hippo ?
COMDCTRL
ah yes the islamic way....for example planting bombs in childrens bus...right
?
owezrite@feedme
tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>When one is lost we guide him/her back.
>That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
HardyHOhorhorhor! ROTFLMFAO!
How DO you "guide" him/her back? Chop off his/her head!!?
Isn't your cry "Death to Apostates!"?
Like that you call 'brotherhood'?
Or did you mean Hood-Dude? (Hudud)
'Hood' yes. Brother? No-way!
Ken!!!
On 10 Feb 98 22:02:53 GMT, tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>> All this lady did was to switch camps.
>
>There are other words to describe that.
> Betrayal is one that comes to mind.
and you welcome others who convert to islam with open arms not wanting
to look at their 'betrayal'? hmmm... give me convienience or give me
death?
>> Why are muslims so upset about this?
>
>We still care enough for one another, when one
>leaves the faith all of us are naturally concerned.
be concerned and being violent and kidnapping a woman are totally
different things... so is showing concern and persecuting that which
you are concerned for... chalk and cheese....
>> The other gods any lesser?
>
>Do you REALLY need to ask?
yes!! in your eyes, you have only one God and that is Allah... but
that is your opinion... you may believe it to be right... but others
believe you to be wrong... and you have absolutely NO RIGHT to tell
them any different in this matter as it concerns PERSONAL FAITH...
note the word 'personal'.. it means 'butt out! this is MINE and mine
alone!!'
>> We don't hear anything when non-muslims convert
>> to Islam.
>
> You will also hear nothing from us when non muslims convert to other non
>muslim religions.
but when moslems convert? it is an incitement to riot? listen to
yourself and truthfully tell yourself that you are not the least bit
biased... you can believe what you like, but you will still be
wrong... it is still a personal matter and everyone who wants to make
a decision for the woman should butt out!!!
>> So.. let her be..let her find her own way..
>>
>
>When one is lost we guide him/her back.
>That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
the islamic way is to kidnap her and take away her freedom in order to
guide her back? strange ways...
and i disagree with you.... and i sure as hell am not wrong....
tukangkarut@feedme
> tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
> >When one is lost we guide him/her back.
> >That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
>
>
> How DO you "guide" him/her back?
be patient and gently guide her/him back.
>Chop off his/her head!!?
Why? so many other execution methods around.
And despite what your limited mind thinks,
putting someone to death is not really something
we would like to do.
> Isn't your cry "Death to Apostates!"?
Only as absolute last resort, after the apostate has refused
all calls to repent, the apostate poses a danger to
other Muslims and ONLY after a fair trial.
And did I ever say I want her executed??
> Like that you call 'brotherhood'?
> Or did you mean Hood-Dude? (Hudud)
> 'Hood' yes. Brother? No-way!
>
Bad pun. don't look for a career in comedy.
sub...@learningtree.com
In article <34e0c...@lightning.ica.net>,
tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
> > All this lady did was to switch camps.
>
> There are other words to describe that.
> Betrayal is one that comes to mind.
Is there a war, we the ignorami, missed ?
>
> > Why are muslims so upset about this?
>
> We still care enough for one another, when one
Donations are still being accepted for the Kurds, Algerians, the Sunnis,
the Shias, the Ahmadis, etc. being persecuted all over the world. Looking
down a the empty tin, we guess that caring rarely translates into dollar
or sense.
> leaves the faith all of us are naturally concerned.
>
> > The other gods any lesser?
>
> Do you REALLY need to ask?
Good point. Caught us completely flat-footed there. Of course, how could
we be so dumb as to ask if there is any One even close to being in the
same Class as the Big One.
>
> > We don't hear anything when non-muslims convert
> > to Islam.
>
> You will also hear
> nothing from us when non muslims convert to other non
> muslim religions.
>
> > So.. let her be..let her find her own way..
> >
>
> When one is lost we guide him/her back.
> That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
Translation:
When one is lost *TO US*, we *MUST* guide him or her back *TO US*
Sure, we KNOW what it is ALL about, no one is to jump ship.
Subir De.on another ship
>
> _______
> Anyone disagreeing with me is automatically wrong.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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thet...@nospam-2157.hotmail.com
(snip)
> Well, it's interesting to see you on the liberal side this time,
> Aduru, and I salute you for it.
That is the FALSE aduru. The original one uses @pl.jaring.my
and is most likely in ISA detention judging by the silence
on the whole murtad issue :)
>But there's one big difference between
> Judaism and Islam on this issue: Jewish legal scholars decided many
> centuries ago to eliminate the application of such barbaric laws (and,
> as far as I know, even the most extreme extremists aren't suggesting
> that they be reinstated), while, as you know, many Muslims want to
> kill apostates today.
>
> Note that I'm not, and never have claimed that Jews are exemplary. But
> the fact that these things are in the Bible and are now effectively
> dead letters says something about the capacity of Jewish law to change
> through time.
>
>
Yes, but it seems you are ignoring the Word of God
(unless you say the old testament is NOT the Torah)
While the Bible comamnds the laws be executed, the
scholars today are now AGAINST these passages.
Any Muslim scholar who advocates NOT enforcing Islamic
Law is going against the Quran, and is known as
Ulama' Suk (evil ulama) and will be ignored at the very
least.
I use OT because I can't read Hebrew :)
-------------
I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
Anyone disagreeing with me shall die.
thet...@nospam-2157.hotmail.com
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:29:32 GMT, na...@pacific.net.SPAMMERSDIE.sg (Ken!!!) wrote:
> On 10 Feb 98 22:02:53 GMT, tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
> >> All this lady did was to switch camps.
> >
> >There are other words to describe that.
> > Betrayal is one that comes to mind.
>
> to look at their 'betrayal'? hmmm... give me convienience or give me
> death?
anymore, but mine still does.
> >> Why are muslims so upset about this?
> >
> >We still care enough for one another, when one
>
> different things... so is showing concern and persecuting that which
> you are concerned for... chalk and cheese....
>
> >
> >Do you REALLY need to ask?
>
fine. Any other gods are not only lesser,
but DO NOT EXIST.Their followers are misguided fools,
and some of them are even dangerous....
>>in your eyes, you have only one God and that is Allah... but
> that is your opinion... you may believe it to be right... but others
> believe you to be wrong...
> and you have absolutely NO RIGHT to tell
> them any different in this matter as it concerns PERSONAL FAITH...
point out to the unbelievers of the error of their
ways.. but I choose not to.
> note the word 'personal'.. it means 'butt out! this is MINE and mine
> alone!!'
people of other religions but I am a member of the
islamic community and as such I look out for my brothers
and sisters and they look out for me. So if one strays,
the others have to get him back.....
> >> We don't hear anything when non-muslims convert
> >> to Islam.
> >
> > You will also hear nothing from us when non muslims convert to other non
> >muslim religions.
>
> yourself and truthfully tell yourself that you are not the least bit
> biased...
> you can believe what you like, but you will still be
> wrong...
> it is still a personal matter and everyone who wants to make
> a decision for the woman should butt out!!!
changing it for her.
> >> So.. let her be..let her find her own way..
> >>
> >
> >When one is lost we guide him/her back.
> >That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
>
> guide her back? strange ways...
without her at least having gone through a trial
and the customary 3 chances to repent?
Besides when someone commits a crime that person
is arrested and their freedom taken away.....
> and i disagree with you.... and i sure as hell am not wrong....
Tan Sri Datuk Dr.
sub...@learningtree.com wrote:
>
> In article <34e0c...@lightning.ica.net>,
> tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
> >
> > > All this lady did was to switch camps.
> >
> > There are other words to describe that.
> > Betrayal is one that comes to mind.
>
You missed it??! Don't you get CNN back there??! :)
> > > Why are muslims so upset about this?
> >
> > We still care enough for one another, when one
>
> Donations are still being accepted for the Kurds, Algerians, the Sunnis,
> the Shias, the Ahmadis, etc. being persecuted all over the world. Looking
> down a the empty tin, we guess that caring rarely translates into dollar
> or sense.
Caring is NOT merely about money.
> > leaves the faith all of us are naturally concerned.
> >
> > > The other gods any lesser?
> >
> > Do you REALLY need to ask?
>
> Good point. Caught us completely flat-footed there. Of course, how could
> we be so dumb as to ask if there is any One even close to being in the
> same Class as the Big One.
The Big One is all there is... the rest are Zeroes.. :)
> > > We don't hear anything when non-muslims convert
> > > to Islam.
> >
> > You will also hear
> > nothing from us when non muslims convert to other non
> > muslim religions.
> >
> > > So.. let her be..let her find her own way..
> > >
> >
> > When one is lost we guide him/her back.
> > That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
>
> Translation:
>
> When one is lost *TO US*, we *MUST* guide him or her back *TO US*
>
> Sure, we KNOW what it is ALL about, no one is to jump ship.
>
> Subir De.on another ship
Jump ship? jumping ship is practically suicide.
didn't you see Titanic???? We're the Jack dawsons
trying to stop the Roses from jumping into the Atlantic :)
Tan Sri Datuk Dr.
No no Hipppocratic as in Hippocrates, who I think
was a medical ethics pioneer... new doctors all swear
the hippocratic oath "do no harm" ...
Tan Sri Datuk Dr.
James Lee wrote:
>
> tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
> : Only as absolute last resort, after the apostate has refused
> : all calls to repent, the apostate poses a danger to
> : other Muslims and ONLY after a fair trial.
>
> : And did I ever say I want her executed??
>
> In one breath you said execution as a last resort. In another you
> question others if you had said you want her executed.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
Execution as last resort yes,after given a
fair trial, and her chances to reppent and she
still does not want to come back, then sadly
the prescribed sentence must be carried out.
but I personally
do NOT want her to be executed. It's like having a
family member on trial for murder.. I mught still
be FOR the death penalty but on the other hand
you bet your rear I will be knocking on the Pardons
Board asking for them to spare his life....
thet...@nospam-2157.hotmail.com
On 12 Feb 1998 18:49:19 -0600, le...@cs.utexas.edu (James Lee) wrote:
> Tan Sri Datuk Dr. (bl...@bounce.com) wrote:
>
> : Execution as last resort yes,after given a
> : still does not want to come back, then sadly
> : the prescribed sentence must be carried out.
>
>
> : but I personally
> : do NOT want her to be executed. It's like having a
> : family member on trial for murder.. I mught still
> : be FOR the death penalty but on the other hand
> : you bet your rear I will be knocking on the Pardons
> : Board asking for them to spare his life....
>
> salvation.
>
Since you live in Texas... same thing about that
Tucker woman, to paraphrase Pat Robertson (I watch 700
club for comedic value) ,"... she has to serve her
temporal punishment... "
so shall it be here as well..
-------------
I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
Anyone disagreeing with me shall die.
Ken!!!
off topic but i wonder if Dr. Kevorkian took the same oath?
On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:13:05 -0800, "Tan Sri Datuk Dr."
<bl...@bounce.com> wrote:
>
>No no Hipppocratic as in Hippocrates, who I think
>was a medical ethics pioneer... new doctors all swear
>the hippocratic oath "do no harm" ...
>
>
*************************************
Ken!!!
On 12 Feb 1998 23:48:31 GMT, thet...@NoSPAM-2157.hotmail.com wrote:
>> and you welcome others who convert to islam with open arms not wanting
>> to look at their 'betrayal'? hmmm... give me convienience or give me
>> death?
>Apparently other religions don't seem to view it that way
>anymore, but mine still does.
give me convenievce or give me death?
if it was the former bit, your numbers in your faith are castles made
of sand... (fall into the sea.... eventually)
what is to be made about a person who changes his faith?
firstly, he has none...
secondly, it is only a tool to use for his earthly things which will
be nothing in the eyes of God.. any God...
>> yes!!
>
>fine. Any other gods are not only lesser,
>but DO NOT EXIST.Their followers are misguided fools,
>and some of them are even dangerous....
that remains to be seen... anyway, please do not talk like that coz
you come across as an arrogant bastard (which i think you are one) who
will not allow another to practice their own faith even tho' it is a
personal matter.... which makes you a fascist...
>>>in your eyes, you have only one God and that is Allah... but
>> that is your opinion... you may believe it to be right... but others
>> believe you to be wrong...
>
>Then they are in error of course.
in matters of faith, you believe them to be wrong, that is your right,
just as i believe you to be wrong... but then, who really knows? i
remain steadfast in my own faith, you in yours, and let Nor Aishah
alone with hers whatever the hell it is... it is no concern of ours...
>> and you have absolutely NO RIGHT to tell
>> them any different in this matter as it concerns PERSONAL FAITH...
>
>Actually I do have a right, (some say a duty) to
>point out to the unbelievers of the error of their
>ways.. but I choose not to.
strange, you seem to be advocating that Nor Aishah's relations did the
right thing by kidnapping and false imprisonment....
>> note the word 'personal'.. it means 'butt out! this is MINE and mine
>> alone!!'
>
>Your religion maybe. And that is how i treat
>people of other religions but I am a member of the
>islamic community and as such I look out for my brothers
>and sisters and they look out for me. So if one strays,
>the others have to get him back.....
you DO NOT bring one back by kidnapping.... that is physical...
spiritually, by doing all this shit, Nor Aishah is probably lost to
your faith forever.... and this cannot be blamed on her boyfriend, but
on the demented actions of her family... now if they had treated her
well and gave her constant love throughout this episode, a seed of
doubt would have been planted in her heard and this seed would
probably grow into something that will maybe bring her back to her
relation's faith... this time for good... but now, i doubt it will
ever happen...
>> but when moslems convert? it is an incitement to riot? listen to
>> yourself and truthfully tell yourself that you are not the least bit
>> biased...
>You can call it whatever you want.
i can call it the truth coz it is... malaysia has a very biased,
bigoted and fascist side when it comes to things religious...
>> you can believe what you like, but you will still be
>> wrong...
>
>We shall see.
hopefully we will NOT....
>> it is still a personal matter and everyone who wants to make
>> a decision for the woman should butt out!!!
>
>Fine, we persuade her to change her mind instead of
>changing it for her.
exactly!!! coz persuasion is not kidnapping or false imprisonment.
>> the islamic way is to kidnap her and take away her freedom in order to
>> guide her back? strange ways...
>Would you prefer her being killed by a lynch mob
>without her at least having gone through a trial
>and the customary 3 chances to repent?
>Besides when someone commits a crime that person
>is arrested and their freedom taken away.....
what crime is committed here that she has to by lynched? if she
rejects the 3 chances to repent, what right have you to lynch her?
religion is a matter for the individual, not for the mob, not for the
community, not for the state...
>> and i disagree with you.... and i sure as hell am not wrong....
>And I sure as hell am not wrong either.
you are dead wrong when you advocate the forcing of someone you do not
even have a clue about into a religion she does not want to be in.....
>I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
>Anyone disagreeing with me shall die.
kill me then.... then you will prove to be what caused the shame and
vilification of the peaceful religion of Islam...
if you do not, you are a barefaced liar...
either way, you are an inconsequential piece of crap who will lie and
cheat and use religion as a tool for your own demented agenda...
goodbye....
selina
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Quran (Chapter 2 verse 256) :
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth
distinct from error. And he who reject false dieties and believe in Allah
has grasp a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer,
Knower.
Quran (2:100):
And if Allah willed, all who are on earth would have believed together.
Wouldst thou (Mohammed) compel men untill they are believers ?
Quran ( 18:30):
Say : The Truth is from your Lord. Then whosoever will, let him believe,
and whosoever will, let him disbelieve.....
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The above statements : is true of false?
If it is true, leave her alone.
If it is false, then the Prophet is a liar or you are totally lost.
thet...@NoSPAM-2157.hotmail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:29:32 GMT, na...@pacific.net.SPAMMERSDIE.sg (Ken!!!) wrote:
>
> > On 10 Feb 98 22:02:53 GMT, tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
>
> > >> All this lady did was to switch camps.
>
> > >
>
> > >There are other words to describe that.
>
> > > Betrayal is one that comes to mind.
>
>
> > and you welcome others who convert to islam with open arms not wanting
>
> > to look at their 'betrayal'? hmmm... give me convienience or give me
>
>
> > death?
>
> Apparently other religions don't seem to view it that way
>
> anymore, but mine still does.
> > >> Why are muslims so upset about this?
> > >
>
> > >We still care enough for one another, when one
>
> > >leaves the faith all of us are naturally concerned.
>
> >
>
> > be concerned and being violent and kidnapping a woman are totally
>
> > different things... so is showing concern and persecuting that which
>
> > you are concerned for... chalk and cheese....
> > >> The other gods any lesser?
>
> > >
>
> > >Do you REALLY need to ask?
>
> >
>
> > yes!!
>
> fine. Any other gods are not only lesser,
>
> but DO NOT EXIST.Their followers are misguided fools,
>
> and some of them are even dangerous....
>
> >>in your eyes, you have only one God and that is Allah... but
>
> > that is your opinion... you may believe it to be right... but others
>
> > believe you to be wrong...
>
> Then they are in error of course.
>
> > and you have absolutely NO RIGHT to tell
>
> > them any different in this matter as it concerns PERSONAL FAITH...
>
> Actually I do have a right, (some say a duty) to
>
> point out to the unbelievers of the error of their
>
> ways.. but I choose not to.
>
> > note the word 'personal'.. it means 'butt out! this is MINE and mine
>
> > alone!!'
>
> Your religion maybe. And that is how i treat
>
> people of other religions but I am a member of the
>
> islamic community and as such I look out for my brothers
>
> and sisters and they look out for me. So if one strays,
>
> the others have to get him back.....
>
> > >> We don't hear anything when non-muslims convert
>
> > >> to Islam.
>
>
> > > You will also hear nothing from us when non muslims convert to other non
>
> > >muslim religions.
>
> >
>
> > but when moslems convert? it is an incitement to riot? listen to
>
> > yourself and truthfully tell yourself that you are not the least bit
>
> > biased...
>
> You can call it whatever you want.
>
> > you can believe what you like, but you will still be
>
> > wrong...
>
> We shall see.
>
> > it is still a personal matter and everyone who wants to make
>
> > a decision for the woman should butt out!!!
>
> Fine, we persuade her to change her mind instead of
>
> changing it for her.
>
>
>
> > >> So.. let her be..let her find her own way..
>
> > >>
>
> > >
>
> > >When one is lost we guide him/her back.
>
> > >That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
>
> >
>
> > the islamic way is to kidnap her and take away her freedom in order to
>
> > guide her back? strange ways...
>
> Would you prefer her being killed by a lynch mob
>
> without her at least having gone through a trial
>
> and the customary 3 chances to repent?
>
>
>
> Besides when someone commits a crime that person
>
> is arrested and their freedom taken away.....
>
> > and i disagree with you.... and i sure as hell am not wrong....
>
> And I sure as hell am not wrong either.
>
> -------------
>
> I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
>
> Anyone disagreeing with me shall die.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted using Reference.COM http://WWW.Reference.COM
> FREE Usenet and Mailing list archive, directory and clipping service
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
1
=================================================
==================================================
=================
==================
===============
tukangkarut@feedme
> >> to look at their 'betrayal'? hmmm... give me convienience or give me
> >> death?
>
> >anymore, but mine still does.
>
> give me convenievce or give me death?
> if it was the former bit, your numbers in your faith are castles made
> of sand... (fall into the sea.... eventually)
>
Interestingly the Prophet said the same thing about his
people in the end days. But then for every religion there
are those of very little faith...
> what is to be made about a person who changes his faith?
> firstly, he has none...
> secondly, it is only a tool to use for his earthly things which will
> be nothing in the eyes of God.. any God...
>
>
> >> yes!!
> >
> >fine. Any other gods are not only lesser,
> >but DO NOT EXIST.Their followers are misguided fools,
> >and some of them are even dangerous....
>
> that remains to be seen... anyway, please do not talk like that coz
> you come across as an arrogant bastard (which i think you are one)
what you think is irrelevant.
who
> will not allow another to practice their own faith even tho' it is a
> personal matter.... which makes you a fascist...
YOU think it is a private matter.
WE (I am not the only one contrary to what you may think) think
otherwise. And we have years of legal tradition to back it up.
>
> >>>in your eyes, you have only one God and that is Allah... but
> >> that is your opinion... you may believe it to be right... but others
> >> believe you to be wrong...
> >
> >Then they are in error of course.
>
> in matters of faith, you believe them to be wrong, that is your right,
> just as i believe you to be wrong... but then, who really knows? i
> remain steadfast in my own faith, you in yours, and let Nor Aishah
> alone with hers whatever the hell it is... it is no concern of ours...
Correction. No concern of YOURS. It is a concern to the Muslims.
in another forum, some one said something to the effect that
"in the fight to implement Islamic Law and enforce it, we
should not listen too much for the unbelievers. Let us to ours
and we will leave them to theirs."
> >> and you have absolutely NO RIGHT to tell
> >> them any different in this matter as it concerns PERSONAL FAITH...
> >
> >Actually I do have a right, (some say a duty) to
> >point out to the unbelievers of the error of their
> >ways.. but I choose not to.
>
> strange, you seem to be advocating that Nor Aishah's relations did the
> right thing by kidnapping and false imprisonment....
By _human_ law in Malaysia they did the wrong thing.
Well if the parents are found guilty what can I do?
Even though you bet your last penny that I will sign
any petition to the Yang di Pertuan Agong and the
Home Minister to ask for pardons for them.
> >> note the word 'personal'.. it means 'butt out! this is MINE and mine
> >> alone!!'
> >
> >Your religion maybe. And that is how i treat
> >people of other religions but I am a member of the
> >islamic community and as such I look out for my brothers
> >and sisters and they look out for me. So if one strays,
> >the others have to get him back.....
>
> you DO NOT bring one back by kidnapping.... that is physical...
> spiritually, by doing all this shit, Nor Aishah is probably lost to
> your faith forever.... and this cannot be blamed on her boyfriend, but
> on the demented actions of her family... now if they had treated her
> well and gave her constant love throughout this episode, a seed of
If they do that she might consider it a nod of parental
approval on her parent's part and go on her merry ways.
PLUS the commnity will not be as forgiving... there are
those who want to avoid tragedy.. like me..
> doubt would have been planted in her heard and this seed would
> probably grow into something that will maybe bring her back to her
> relation's faith... this time for good... but now, i doubt it will
> ever happen...
>
>
> >> but when moslems convert? it is an incitement to riot? listen to
> >> yourself and truthfully tell yourself that you are not the least bit
> >> biased...
>
> >You can call it whatever you want.
>
> i can call it the truth coz it is... malaysia has a very biased,
> bigoted and fascist side when it comes to things religious...
Like I said below, call it truth if you want to but
you will still be wrong.
>
> >> you can believe what you like, but you will still be
> >> wrong...
> >
> >We shall see.
>
> hopefully we will NOT....
We shall see about THAT too.
> >> it is still a personal matter and everyone who wants to make
> >> a decision for the woman should butt out!!!
> >
> >Fine, we persuade her to change her mind instead of
> >changing it for her.
>
>
> exactly!!! coz persuasion is not kidnapping or false imprisonment.
and how to persuade her when she's hiding out at
her boyfriend's home???? How can the parents know
she's not being brainwashed?
> >> the islamic way is to kidnap her and take away her freedom in order to
> >> guide her back? strange ways...
>
>
> >Would you prefer her being killed by a lynch mob
> >without her at least having gone through a trial
> >and the customary 3 chances to repent?
>
> >Besides when someone commits a crime that person
> >is arrested and their freedom taken away.....
>
>
> what crime is committed here that she has to by lynched? if she
> rejects the 3 chances to repent, what right have you to lynch her?
none, but if she rejects, and unless I am very much mistaken
we have the right to execute her.
> religion is a matter for the individual, not for the mob, not for the
> community, not for the state...
That may be true for your religion but not mine.
Religion is a matter of the individual, the community and
even the state.
> >> and i disagree with you.... and i sure as hell am not wrong....
>
> >And I sure as hell am not wrong either.
>
>
> you are dead wrong when you advocate the forcing of someone you do not
> even have a clue about into a religion she does not want to be in.....
The law says apostates will be executed. Unless someone
can come up with an Islamic reasoning to NOT execute apostates,
that is the ruling and that is what I shall stand by.
> >I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
> >Anyone disagreeing with me shall die.
>
> kill me then.... then you will prove to be what caused the shame and
> vilification of the peaceful religion of Islam...
Killing is not necessary, time is my executioner.
> if you do not, you are a barefaced liar...
Note the signature, anyone disagreeing with me shall
DIE. Nothing mentioned about being killed. I could
be talking about old age for all you know.
> either way, you are an inconsequential piece of crap who will lie and
> cheat and use religion as a tool for your own demented agenda...
And WHAT is my "demented agenda"??? I do not use
religion as a tool, rather I am a tool of the religion.
Your inconsquential views are of no relevance in this matter.
> goodbye....
>
Good riddance.
________
I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
------------------------------------------------------------------
piper
On 13 Feb 1998 01:48:33 GMT, thet...@NoSPAM-2157.hotmail.com wrote:
>Since you live in Texas... same thing about that
>Tucker woman, to paraphrase Pat Robertson (I watch 700
>club for comedic value) ,"... she has to serve her
>temporal punishment... "
>
>so shall it be here as well..
Excuse me, but her punishment was for MURDER, not APOSTACY! I don't
believe in "a life for a life", but that's a lot different from
killing someone for deciding to leave a faith. Catholicism has
progressed past the time of the Inquisition, but apparently Islam has
not yet put that behind. Burn her at the stake, why don't you?
Michael
Panot
selina wrote:
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Quran (Chapter 2 verse 256) :
>
> There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth
> distinct from error. And he who reject false dieties and believe in Allah
> has grasp a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer,
> Knower.
>
> Quran (2:100):
>
> And if Allah willed, all who are on earth would have believed together.
> Wouldst thou (Mohammed) compel men untill they are believers ?
>
> Quran ( 18:30):
> Say : The Truth is from your Lord. Then whosoever will, let him believe,
> and whosoever will, let him disbelieve.....
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> The above statements : is true of false?
> If it is true, leave her alone.
> If it is false, then the Prophet is a liar or you are totally lost.
eheeemm...kalau nak menafsir Al Quran, kena belajo baca AlQuran...
Ayat Al Baqarah : 256 tu betul tapi kena le paham maksudnya...tak paksa
orang ugama lain (kafir) supaya masuk Islam, kau ugama kau aku ugama
aku..Tapi kalau kau dah masuk Islam (as Muslim), kena le ikut undang2
Islam, tak kan le nak ikut undang2 kafir...tak le logik....
Contoh: Selina masuk askar, kena le selina kawad tengah panas...aku tak
masuk askar, tak kan pulak tuan sarjan suruh aku kawad juga...tak aci
le..mana adil..Lepas tu aku pulak komplen,,mana boleh selina kawad
tengah panas...kesian le dia..dia dah dewasa,matang, bl.a.bla..bla, biar
le dia pilih cara dia..jadi askar tapi tak nak kawad.??
Cuma nak ingatkan selina...kalau kau Christian..kau tak boleh kenakan
undang2 kau kat aku, sebab...aku Islam, Aku pun tak boleh suruh kau
puasa, sebab kau bukan Islam...
Al Baqarah (2:100) MANA KAU DAPAT AYAT NI?????unreliable resources...
the correct(InsyaAllah):
Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party
among them throw it aside? Nay! the truth is most of them believe not.
Al-Kafh (18:30) again ..MANA KAU DAPAT AYAT NI????
the correct (InsyaAllah):
Verily! As for those who believe and do righteous deeds, certainly! We
shall not suffer to be lost the reward of anyone who does his
(righteous) deeds in the most perfect manner.
unfair to critise/judge someone without 'knowing' the person..
unfair to critise/judge Islam without 'knowing' the religion..
m i getting personal???
NAK TAU
Stone Cold Steve Austin
tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
> none, but if she rejects, and unless I am very much mistaken
> we have the right to execute her.
>
And you pass yourself off as a peaceful person as you mentioned in an
earlier posting?
Islam teaches you to be a hypocrite, eh?
> ________
> I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
>
You're wrong here though.
Ken!!!
On 13 Feb 98 21:45:42 GMT, tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>> give me convenievce or give me death?
>> if it was the former bit, your numbers in your faith are castles made
>> of sand... (fall into the sea.... eventually)
>>
>
>Interestingly the Prophet said the same thing about his
>people in the end days. But then for every religion there
>are those of very little faith...
especially those who use it to marry one of the Islamic faith?
>> what is to be made about a person who changes his faith?
>> firstly, he has none...
>> secondly, it is only a tool to use for his earthly things which will
>> be nothing in the eyes of God.. any God...
>>
>> that remains to be seen... anyway, please do not talk like that coz
>> you come across as an arrogant bastard (which i think you are one)
>
>what you think is irrelevant.
but am i right? what i think may be irrelevant to you, but it does not
change the truth does it?
>who
>> will not allow another to practice their own faith even tho' it is a
>> personal matter.... which makes you a fascist...
>
>YOU think it is a private matter.
>WE (I am not the only one contrary to what you may think) think
>otherwise. And we have years of legal tradition to back it up.
no i do not THINK it is a private matter... screw legal tradition...
tradition is an excuse for those who are too unimaginative to have
their own principles.... religion IS a private matter.. do not try and
tell me that your religion is not a matter between you and your God,
but you were told that this is the religion you have to take or you
will be stoned to death or some shit like that.... and if you believe
that, you are more pathetic than i take you for...
>> in matters of faith, you believe them to be wrong, that is your right,
>> just as i believe you to be wrong... but then, who really knows? i
>> remain steadfast in my own faith, you in yours, and let Nor Aishah
>> alone with hers whatever the hell it is... it is no concern of ours...
>
>Correction. No concern of YOURS. It is a concern to the Muslims.
>
>in another forum, some one said something to the effect that
>"in the fight to implement Islamic Law and enforce it, we
>should not listen too much for the unbelievers. Let us to ours
>and we will leave them to theirs."
in your own words you contradict yourself... 'leave us to ours and we
will leave them to theirs'? bullshit!!! implementation of Islamic laws
is to enforce these laws on moslems... that is your right... but to
implement these laws on those who reject Islam, are non-moslems is NOT
your right... that becomes fascism and bigotry in the name of
religion... then you are no more than the idiot christian crusaders of
old you seek to condemn
>> strange, you seem to be advocating that Nor Aishah's relations did the
>> right thing by kidnapping and false imprisonment....
>
>By _human_ law in Malaysia they did the wrong thing.
>
>Well if the parents are found guilty what can I do?
>Even though you bet your last penny that I will sign
>any petition to the Yang di Pertuan Agong and the
>Home Minister to ask for pardons for them.
go do that... in malaysia, anyone can receive a pardon as long as it
is convenient for the powers who abuse the hell out of it.... remember
the sultan of johor or some royalty beat a man to death and was
pardoned by his dad?
you would sully the good name of Islam by seeking that these criminals
be pardoned? well, go ahead... it is your own country to breed fear
and loathing for your state religion, where it becomes okay to kidnap
and imprison adults just coz 'it was for their own good'...
well, i hope you start to think like a logical person and not let your
emotions run away with you....
coz i bet, if a christian converted to islam and was kidnapped and
imprisoned by her relatives, there will be riots in the street... such
is the oversensitivity in malaysia due to the special privileges (note
the word privileges) that have morphed into rights for an ethnic group
and a religious group....
>> you DO NOT bring one back by kidnapping.... that is physical...
>> spiritually, by doing all this shit, Nor Aishah is probably lost to
>> your faith forever.... and this cannot be blamed on her boyfriend, but
>> on the demented actions of her family... now if they had treated her
>> well and gave her constant love throughout this episode, a seed of
>
>If they do that she might consider it a nod of parental
>approval on her parent's part and go on her merry ways.
>PLUS the commnity will not be as forgiving... there are
>those who want to avoid tragedy.. like me..
what tragedy? by kidnapping her? sometimes the needs of the one is
more important than the needs of the community... are there no such
things as individual rights in malaysia? the hell with the
community... these are basic rights of a human being... the freedom to
practice their chosen religion without persecution, and the freedom to
pursue happiness... is that too much to ask?
>> doubt would have been planted in her heard and this seed would
>> probably grow into something that will maybe bring her back to her
>> relation's faith... this time for good... but now, i doubt it will
>> ever happen...
>>
>> i can call it the truth coz it is... malaysia has a very biased,
>> bigoted and fascist side when it comes to things religious...
>
>Like I said below, call it truth if you want to but
>you will still be wrong.
no man... all your time spent in another country still has not opened
your eyes to the stupidity of forcing another to do what one does not
want to do.... it is the truth, and if you still want to deny it, you
can... but it will be painful for you....
>>
>> hopefully we will NOT....
>
>We shall see about THAT too.
what!!! you want a racial conflict?!? what kind of sick shit are you?
>>
>> exactly!!! coz persuasion is not kidnapping or false imprisonment.
>
>and how to persuade her when she's hiding out at
>her boyfriend's home???? How can the parents know
>she's not being brainwashed?
by loving her...
>> what crime is committed here that she has to by lynched? if she
>> rejects the 3 chances to repent, what right have you to lynch her?
>
>none, but if she rejects, and unless I am very much mistaken
>we have the right to execute her.
no you DO NOT have the right to execute anyone for switching
religions.... if so, you MUST go execute everyone who has converted to
Islam too.... but then you are an advocate of double standards, aren't
you?
>> religion is a matter for the individual, not for the mob, not for the
>> community, not for the state...
>
>That may be true for your religion but not mine.
>Religion is a matter of the individual, the community and
>even the state.
NO!! even in malaysia where the state religion is Islam, i know it is
the constitutional right of any person to practice whatever religion
he/she/it wants.... if not, mussolini would be smiling in hell....
>> you are dead wrong when you advocate the forcing of someone you do not
>> even have a clue about into a religion she does not want to be in.....
>
>The law says apostates will be executed. Unless someone
>can come up with an Islamic reasoning to NOT execute apostates,
>that is the ruling and that is what I shall stand by.
okay then... go postal and start killing... then the whole of malaysia
would be plunged into a climate of fear and loathing of which i do not
think it will ever recover... i pity you.... and you pathetically
small little ways....
>> >I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
>> >Anyone disagreeing with me shall die.
>>
>> kill me then.... then you will prove to be what caused the shame and
>> vilification of the peaceful religion of Islam...
>Killing is not necessary, time is my executioner.
everyone dies.... just make sure you die the straw death or die for a
good cause.... 'sides... i know of many things i would give my life
for... but i do not know of any cause that i will kill for....
>> if you do not, you are a barefaced liar...
>
>Note the signature, anyone disagreeing with me shall
>DIE. Nothing mentioned about being killed. I could
>be talking about old age for all you know.
hey!! you are so anal aren't you?
anyone agreeing with you will also die then,
and anyone who does not give a shit will also die....
anyway, if you are wrong, and God is not agreeable with your
statements, aren't you blaspheming?
>> either way, you are an inconsequential piece of crap who will lie and
>> cheat and use religion as a tool for your own demented agenda...
>
>And WHAT is my "demented agenda"??? I do not use
>religion as a tool, rather I am a tool of the religion.
>
>Your inconsquential views are of no relevance in this matter.
yah!! i hope your sick and demented views are of no consequences
too... coz the consequences of your views are too bloody and violent
for the good of humanity
>
>> goodbye....
>>
>
>Good riddance.
>
okay.... but then, if you type in shit again, i reserve the right to
yell at your posts...
selina
Instead of trying to force religion on a person who has lost faith in it,
you should fix prevailing problems within the muslim community. Muslims who
dump babies in surau and in garbage bins. Stop talking and using religion to
as an excuse to kill and maim people. Enough is enough. You acts are further
going to alienate more people from Islam. Remember you can bring a horse to
the water but you cannot make it drink. You nor any religion has any right
to take life. Any religion that demands death is no religion.
I am sick of hearing people claim that "the Prophet said this or Buddha said
that or Christ meant this or whoever said whatever" as a means to justify
stupidy. Where is compassion? forgiveness? and most importantly humanity?
Ken!!! wrote:
>
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J.S.Thomas
Panot wrote in message <34E4F2...@mailexite.com>...
>aku..Tapi kalau kau dah masuk Islam (as Muslim), kena le ikut undang2
>Islam, tak kan le nak ikut undang2 kafir...tak le logik....
Saya dapat tahu, pengikut Islam boleh relah murtad dalam keadaan dahrurat.
that is.... I understand a muslim can commit apostacy if his life is in
danger because he is a muslim. Is this true ?
John S. Thomas
Tax Problems ? See : http://www.jb-online.com.my/wizards/tomtax/index.htm
My Church : http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/8162
Joseph D'Cruz
Panot <mrp...@mailexite.com> wrote in article
<34E4F2...@mailexite.com>...
> selina wrote:
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Quran (Chapter 2 verse 256) :
> >
> > There is no compulsion in religion.
[...]
> > Quran (2:100):
> >
> > And if Allah willed, all who are on earth would have believed
together.
> > Wouldst thou (Mohammed) compel men untill they are believers ?
> >
> > Quran ( 18:30):
It's actually 18:29, but the quotation is accurate.
> eheeemm...kalau nak menafsir Al Quran, kena belajo baca AlQuran...
>
> Ayat Al Baqarah : 256 tu betul tapi kena le paham maksudnya...tak paksa
> orang ugama lain (kafir) supaya masuk Islam, kau ugama kau aku ugama
> aku..Tapi kalau kau dah masuk Islam (as Muslim), kena le ikut undang2
> Islam, tak kan le nak ikut undang2 kafir...tak le logik....
Memanglah, tapi Aishah Bokhari ini tak *masuk* Islam, kan? Dia dilahirkan
Islam, sekarang mahu masuk Kristian. Jadi *pilihan* nya untuk masuk
Kristian. Jadi logiknya betul, tetapi terbalik. Kalau dia dah masuk
Kristian, takkan dia nak ikut undang2 Islam pulak?... tak le logik...
> Contoh: Selina masuk askar, kena le selina kawad tengah panas...aku tak
> masuk askar, tak kan pulak tuan sarjan suruh aku kawad juga...tak aci
> le..mana adil..Lepas tu aku pulak komplen,,mana boleh selina kawad
> tengah panas...kesian le dia..dia dah dewasa,matang, bl.a.bla..bla, biar
> le dia pilih cara dia..jadi askar tapi tak nak kawad.??
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ialah, kan Aishah Bokhari dah pilih cara dia? Kenapa kita nak paksa dia
lagi
[...]
> Al Baqarah (2:100) MANA KAU DAPAT AYAT NI?????unreliable resources...
[...]
> Al-Kafh (18:30) again ..MANA KAU DAPAT AYAT NI????
[...]
see above, I think selina means 18:29. Yang 2:100 'tu I tak sure, tapi
quotation tu sounds familiar; mungkin wrong citation?
regards: joseph
mob...@tm.net.my
In article <34E3AB...@bounce.com>,
> > >
> > > > All this lady did was to switch camps.
> > >
> > > There are other words to describe that.
> > > Betrayal is one that comes to mind.
> >
>
> You missed it??! Don't you get CNN back there??! :)
>
> > >
> > > We still care enough for one another, when one
> >
> > the Shias, the Ahmadis, etc. being persecuted all over the world. Looking
> > down a the empty tin, we guess that caring rarely translates into dollar
> > or sense.
>
> Caring is NOT merely about money.
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Do you REALLY need to ask?
> >
> > we be so dumb as to ask if there is any One even close to being in the
> > same Class as the Big One.
>
> The Big One is all there is... the rest are Zeroes.. :)
>
> > > > to Islam.
> > >
> > > You will also hear
> > > nothing from us when non muslims convert to other non
> > > muslim religions.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > When one is lost we guide him/her back.
> > > That is what Islamic Brotherhood is all about.
> >
> >
> > When one is lost *TO US*, we *MUST* guide him or her back *TO US*
> >
> > Sure, we KNOW what it is ALL about, no one is to jump ship.
> >
> > Subir De.on another ship
>
> Jump ship? jumping ship is practically suicide.
> didn't you see Titanic???? We're the Jack dawsons
> trying to stop the Roses from jumping into the Atlantic :)
>
> -------------
>
you should fix prevailing problems within the muslim community. Muslims who
dump babies in surau and in garbage bins. Stop talking and using religion to
as an excuse to kill and maim people. Enough is enough. You acts are further
going to alienate more people from Islam. Remember you can bring a horse to
the water but you cannot make it drink. You nor any religion has any right
to take life. Any religion that demands death is no religion.
I am sick of hearing people claim that "the Prophet said this or Buddha said
that or Christ meant this or whoever said whatever" as a means to justify
stupidy. Where is compassion? forgiveness? and most importantly humanity?
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
mob...@tm.net.my
In article <34d86d0...@news.pacific.net.sg>,
na...@pacific.SPAMMERSDIE.net.sg wrote:
>
> On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 16:56:29 -0800, PoliTikus <lub...@tikus.com>
> wrote:
>
> >So if this person who has enough knowledge to be an
> >ustazah suddenly gets lonely and wants more of her kind,
> >and goes into christian missionary activities on (for example)
> >the malaysian students overseas,
> >she would be a damn effective weapon against Islam, know
> >what I mean??
>
> is there a worldwide conspiracy to use this woman as an 'effective'
> weapon against islam?
>
> is there actually a conspiracy to do islam in?
>
> all i see is a bunch of idiots in the middle east trying to do the
> jews in... and the israelis (not to be mistaken for the jews) really
> do not give a shit about islam or arab unity or shit like that...
>
> >I still say the best resolution is for her and her darling
> >boyfriend to be victims of a fatal road accident. Not that
> >I wish they will die, but that's the best way to handle
> >the controversy.
Now I see WHY people feel this way about Islam. An excerpt:
...while Pornon Koran which is posted here is perverted
junk, Koran itself is dangerous cult style ideology... I
read enough in the Koran until I couldn't stand it:
biggotry against jews and christians, polygamy, degradation
of women, to mention but little, and this is suposed to be
stuff dictated by God to Mohammad? complete non-sense.
Mohammad was a pretentious liar like all perverted cult
leaders... his father was a christian priest by the name of
"Rahib Al-Buhaira" meaning "the priest of the lake"... Ole'
Mo twisted the holy christian doctrine with his own
convicitons, create the Koran, built an Islamic kinkdom for
himself in the name of Allah, and fooled a bunch of stupid
bedouin followers, who used the sword to force others
through military conquests to convert to Islam...
Mohammad married several women, the last of which Aa'isha
was nine when he was in his fifties!! if Mohammad lived
today, they'd throw his ass in jail and throw away the key.
Muslims today are bent on hatred toward all non-muslims, and
are intent on making themselves ennemies of all other
religions: judaism, christianity, hinduism,... there are
wars everywhere there are muslims from Asia to Europe to
Africa.
Non-muslims: OPEN YOUR EYES...
End Quote..........
>
> that is one of the most sickening things i have ever heard uttered...
> if you are representative of your religion, then you really need the
> grace of god.... coz you are acting like and animal... actually less
> than an animal....
>
> *************************************
> remove SPAMMERSDIE for correspondence
> *************************************
>
hazri
mob...@tm.net.my wrote:
> ...while Pornon Koran which is posted here is perverted
> junk, Koran itself is dangerous cult style ideology... I
> read enough in the Koran until I couldn't stand it:
you showing your true nature here, again. This is the same
kind of crap that you spewed when you first appeared here.
I thought you were smart enough to stick to news posting,
and continue to build your reputation through news contribution
after been chasticed for your one-sided remarks.
> biggotry against jews and christians, polygamy, degradation
> of women, to mention but little, and this is suposed to be
> stuff dictated by God to Mohammad? complete non-sense.
bigotry is anywhere regardless of religion. True polygamy when
appropriately practiced is protection for women. Read
up on the requirements demanded on the man.
Hey, if you believed in King Solomon, you know he had hundreds of
consorts. Was he a bad guy then?
> Mohammad was a pretentious liar like all perverted cult
> leaders... his father was a christian priest by the name of
> "Rahib Al-Buhaira" meaning "the priest of the lake"... Ole'
Really? whats your source. Even so, its a common fact,
that Muhammad was an orphan. His father died before he was
born. His father by profession was a trader, and not a priest.
Ask any muslim you can get hold on
> Mo twisted the holy christian doctrine with his own
> convicitons, create the Koran, built an Islamic kinkdom for
> himself in the name of Allah, and fooled a bunch of stupid
> bedouin followers, who used the sword to force others
> through military conquests to convert to Islam...
Finally, I see that you are a christian. (your usage
of "holy" for christian doctrine") Why are there seems to be
a lot of Christians here that attack Islam and Muhammad. You
enjoyed your faith and yet you degrade and deny others
of the same priviledge to have faith in their own belief.
> Mohammad married several women, the last of which Aa'isha
> was nine when he was in his fifties!! if Mohammad lived
> today, they'd throw his ass in jail and throw away the key.
Woman and man matures more quickly in those days than in the
present. They didn't have school or college or television in
those days. As soon as you were able, you would be put to work.
No life little pleasures, that you seemed to be taking for granted
now. Again, people matured quickly, thats just logic.
In japan, nowsday, the legal age is 12. Same as Virginia which was also
12 years, 20 years ago. Now let me put it to you in another way,
how would you determine, scientifically and rationally whats the
universal legal age should be and based on what premise.
In Islam, a girl is legal as soon as she's ovaluting, and abled to
perpetuate the society/tribes. Therefore for each girl the time is
determined by her own biological clock.
> Muslims today are bent on hatred toward all non-muslims, and
> are intent on making themselves ennemies of all other
> religions: judaism, christianity, hinduism,... there are
> wars everywhere there are muslims from Asia to Europe to
> Africa.
Christian was spread through massacre from South America, Europe
and Asia. Mass slavery of africans, destruction of language
and cultural identity of South American and Phillipines. Heck, all
of South America spoke Spanish and sport a Spanish name (jose, emberto
etc) now. Read the opium treaty of China, and the events led to it.
Christian was forced into china. Do you know Adolf Hitler?
He's a christian too. Need I go on?
Thats not to say, Christianity is evil. Some followers are.
Don't you see know how wrong to judge Islam based on *just* some
of its followers.
> Non-muslims: OPEN YOUR EYES...
or close them...if they follow your advices.
Akulah Tan Sri
Why burn her at the stake? Is that STILL the law in Massachusetts??
Anyway, if the State of Texas has laws that say murderes
have to be executed, then any murderers in Texas will be
executed.
The Islamic laws say that apostates have to be executed.
And as a law upholding muslim I stand by that law.
I don't think abandoning our laws would be called "progress".
Societal standards change frequently. I see people more willing
to put up with things which were widely condemned as wrong
less than 20 years ago. Heck, there's even a marijuana legalization
movement here! Religious laws are eternal and they set standards
that can not be changed to suit society's whims and fancies.
It can be fashionable or permissible by society to tolerate
homosexuality for example, but religiously it is STILL wrong.
Oh and by the time of the Inquisition, the Catholic church
is hopelessly corrupt. I don't think my religion is corrupt yet.
angus
> I am sick of hearing people claim that "the Prophet said this or Buddha said
> that or Christ meant this or whoever said whatever" as a means to justify
> stupidy. Where is compassion? forgiveness? and most importantly humanity?
Well said.
It appears our founding fathers were wise to make Malaya a secular
nation at the time of independence.
As we are at the cross-roads of all the major religions,
religious/racial harmony can only be maintained if all religious leaders
have respect for all other religions.
This includes sensitive areas where love transcends religious
boundaries. This is why the secular law permits the individual to
practise freedom of religion.
It is a strange argument to have that one love-sick individual can
threaten the whole fabric of society.
H J Angus
tukangkarut@feedme
> tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
> > none, but if she rejects, and unless I am very much mistaken
> > we have the right to execute her.
> >
>
> earlier posting?
YES, I AM A PEACEFUL PERSON. However I also support the
enforcement of the LAW and when the LAW says someone has to
be executed, after a fair and free trial with all the evidence
considered, I will stand by the decision..
> Islam teaches you to be a hypocrite, eh?
Were you taught to be so thick or is this natural???
How does my upholding of the law cancel out my
being a peaceful person ? Use your head not your irrational
hatred when you post.
> > ________
> > I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
> >
> You're wrong here though.
Uh uh.. you are.
----------
I am the Tan Sri. Your opinions do not matter.
Anyone who disagrees with me shall die.
Stone Cold Steve Austin
tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
>
> >
> > > none, but if she rejects, and unless I am very much mistaken
> > > we have the right to execute her.
> > And you pass yourself off as a peaceful person as you mentioned in an
> > earlier posting?
>
> YES, I AM A PEACEFUL PERSON. However I also support the
> enforcement of the LAW and when the LAW says someone has to
> be executed, after a fair and free trial with all the evidence
> considered, I will stand by the decision..
>
Funny...there's no law in the Constitution that says a person
will be executed for switching religious camps...dadah got, religion
tadak. Until now, I haven't heard of anyone being tried and executed
because of religion in Malaysia. So don't spout your bullshit around
here stating that you are a "peaceful" person yet at the same time
supporting some so-called religious law that demands the death of
the poor young lady.
> > Islam teaches you to be a hypocrite, eh?
>
> Were you taught to be so thick or is this natural???
> How does my upholding of the law cancel out my
> being a peaceful person ? Use your head not your irrational
> hatred when you post.
>
What law are you talking about? Constitutional or religious fanaticism?
Go read the constitution!!
> > > ________
> > > I am the Tan Sri. I am always right.
> > You're wrong here though.
> Uh uh.. you are.
>
Religious fanaticism is not to be agreed with.
> ----------
Hell Angel
Allah Says:
These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other
about their Lord; then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire
will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their
heads.
Al-Quran 22:19
AZHAR/ ISAAC AJ
On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Stone Cold Steve Austin wrote:
> Funny...there's no law in the Constitution that says a person
> will be executed for switching religious camps...dadah got, religion
> tadak. Until now, I haven't heard of anyone being tried and executed
there is a statute in syariah law itself, in relevant parts;
"hukuman bunuh bagi orang2 yang murtad ...
diberi tempoh untuk bertaubat selama 3 hari .. "
this just only applies to a moslem convert to another religion.
as i said earlier in my previous thread, this is still yet to be imposed
in malaysia.
but I wonder there still no one has answered my previous thread...??
_\\|//_
///|\\\
----------------------------oOO--(_)---OOo----------------------------
AZHAR AJ
UNIVERSITY OF NEWCASTLE
WEB : www.geocities.com/Baja/7178/
Ken!!!
it's islamic law but is it law?
On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:10:02 +1100, AZHAR/ ISAAC AJ
<c952...@alinga.newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
>
>there is a statute in syariah law itself, in relevant parts;
> "hukuman bunuh bagi orang2 yang murtad ...
> diberi tempoh untuk bertaubat selama 3 hari .. "
>this just only applies to a moslem convert to another religion.
>as i said earlier in my previous thread, this is still yet to be imposed
>in malaysia.
>but I wonder there still no one has answered my previous thread...??
>
*************************************
Stone Cold Steve Austin
AZHAR/ ISAAC AJ wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Stone Cold Steve Austin wrote:
>
> > Funny...there's no law in the Constitution that says a person
> > will be executed for switching religious camps...dadah got, religion
> > tadak. Until now, I haven't heard of anyone being tried and executed
>
> "hukuman bunuh bagi orang2 yang murtad ...
> diberi tempoh untuk bertaubat selama 3 hari .. "
> this just only applies to a moslem convert to another religion.
> as i said earlier in my previous thread, this is still yet to be imposed
> in malaysia.
> but I wonder there still no one has answered my previous thread...??
>
To me, killing anyone for switching religious camps is sheer barbarism.
Stone Cold Steve Austin
Akulah Tan Sri wrote:
>
> Oh and by the time of the Inquisition, the Catholic church
> is hopelessly corrupt. I don't think my religion is corrupt yet.
Not corrupt but demented!!
michael
In article <34E7A5...@blank.bounce.add> tan...@blank.bounce.add writes:
>
>piper wrote:
>>
>> On 13 Feb 1998 01:48:33 GMT, thet...@NoSPAM-2157.hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >Since you live in Texas... same thing about that
>>
>> >Tucker woman, to paraphrase Pat Robertson (I watch 700
>>
>> >club for comedic value) ,"... she has to serve her
>>
>> >temporal punishment... "
>>
>> >
>>
>> >so shall it be here as well..
>>
>> Excuse me, but her punishment was for MURDER, not APOSTACY! I don't
>> believe in "a life for a life", but that's a lot different from
>> killing someone for deciding to leave a faith. Catholicism has
>> progressed past the time of the Inquisition, but apparently Islam has
>> not yet put that behind. Burn her at the stake, why don't you?
>
>Why burn her at the stake? Is that STILL the law in Massachusetts??
>
>Anyway, if the State of Texas has laws that say murderes
>have to be executed, then any murderers in Texas will be
>executed.
>
>The Islamic laws say that apostates have to be executed.
>And as a law upholding muslim I stand by that law.
Does the spirit of the law say the same too ? I wonder. :)
>I don't think abandoning our laws would be called "progress".
>Societal standards change frequently. I see people more willing
>to put up with things which were widely condemned as wrong
>less than 20 years ago. Heck, there's even a marijuana legalization
>movement here! Religious laws are eternal and they set standards
>that can not be changed to suit society's whims and fancies.
>
>It can be fashionable or permissible by society to tolerate
>homosexuality for example, but religiously it is STILL wrong.
>
>Oh and by the time of the Inquisition, the Catholic church
>is hopelessly corrupt. I don't think my religion is corrupt yet.
Reformation saved the Christian movement.
A reformation may do the same to Islam too ... who knows. :)
regards,
michael ... afn2...@afn.org
Panot
Joseph D'Cruz wrote:
> Ialah, kan Aishah Bokhari dah pilih cara dia? Kenapa kita nak paksa dia
> lagi
eheeemm...the problem is...dia dah Islam, undang2 Islam tak benarkan
Muslim menjadi murtad. kalau murtad, kena le pujuk dan nasihat kan dia,
kalau tak boleh jugak..baru le hukum dia. Ini bukan soal paksa atau
tidak..ini soal hukum...Sama juga dengan puasa,solat, zakat etc. U pun
tau Muslim kena solat dan puasa...sebab itu undang2 Islam, tapi kenapa
non-Muslim tak pertikaikan hukum yang menyuruh dan memaksa Muslim
solat???
Bila Muslim yang tak puasa masa bulan Ramadhan kena tangkap, kenapa
non-Muslim senyap aje??? kenapa tak ada non-muslim yang kata 'dia nak
makan dia punye pasal le.??? pasall...itu undang2 Islam. Muslim tak
tegur undang2 non-Muslim tapi kenapa ramai non-Muslim yg tegur undang2
Islam??????
>
>
> Memanglah, tapi Aishah Bokhari ini tak *masuk* Islam, kan? Dia dilahirkan
Islam, sekarang mahu masuk Kristian. Jadi *pilihan* nya untuk masuk
Kristian. Jadi logiknya betul, tetapi terbalik. Kalau dia dah masuk
Kristian, takkan dia nak ikut undang2 Islam pulak?... tak le logik..
> [...]
>
eheeemm...selama 15 tahun dia solat,puasa, bayar zakat tu semua untuk
agama apa??? Borang dia masuk ITM dulu dia tulis agama dia
Islam...kenapa dia tak tulis "belum masuk agama"??????
I dilahirkan Islam dan I practised Islam untuk selama 25 tahun, so apa
perlu I buat untuk I masuk Islam???
Kalau parents U Christian, U pun dilahirkan sbg Christian dan U
practised Christian as your religion until youre 30 years old, in that
period, what is your religion??????Christian kan???? atau belum masuk
Christian??????
NAK TAU
J.S.Thomas
Akulah Tan Sri wrote in message <34E7A5...@blank.bounce.add>...
>The Islamic laws say that apostates have to be executed.
>And as a law upholding muslim I stand by that law.
The right to one own religion is a fundamental human right. You do not put a
person to death for excercising that right. As I 've said in other forums
regarding Nor Aishah, she has NOT changed her God or become an atheist ! She
just changed 'Nabi' (Prophet) - accepted a different revelation of the same
Supreme One God. The question of apostacy therefore does NOT arise !
J.S.Thomas
loud
If any punishment of law which involved permanant disability of a person,
like chopping off hands or legs in Malaysia, or killing someone due to
non-capital crime, I will always against it.
What kind of punishment does one get if they do not puasa? It is totally
different issue when permanant disabilty or dead is imposed.
--
Regards,
Loud
Panot <mrp...@mailexite.com> wrote in article
> Joseph D'Cruz wrote:
>
> eheeemm...the problem is...dia dah Islam, undang2 Islam tak benarkan
> Muslim menjadi murtad. kalau murtad, kena le pujuk dan nasihat kan dia,
> kalau tak boleh jugak..baru le hukum dia. Ini bukan soal paksa atau
> tidak..ini soal hukum...Sama juga dengan puasa,solat, zakat etc. U pun
> tau Muslim kena solat dan puasa...sebab itu undang2 Islam, tapi kenapa
> non-Muslim tak pertikaikan hukum yang menyuruh dan memaksa Muslim
> solat???
>
> Bila Muslim yang tak puasa masa bulan Ramadhan kena tangkap, kenapa
> non-Muslim senyap aje??? kenapa tak ada non-muslim yang kata 'dia nak
> makan dia punye pasal le.??? pasall...itu undang2 Islam. Muslim tak
> tegur undang2 non-Muslim tapi kenapa ramai non-Muslim yg tegur undang2
> Islam??????
J.S.Thomas
J.S.Thomas
Hell Angel wrote in message <34E79AB...@coldmail.com>...
>
>
>Allah Says:
>
>These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other
>about their Lord; then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire
>will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their
>heads.
For your info, Aishah did NOT become an UNBELIEVER in Allah ! She only
'tukar Nabi' ! She accepted a different revelation of the SAME Supreme God.
J.S.Thomas
Hell Angel wrote in message <34E79AB...@coldmail.com>...
>Allah Says:
>These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other
>about their Lord; then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire
>will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their
>heads.
For your info, Aishah did NOT become an UNBELIEVER in Allah ! She only
'tukar Nabi' ! She accepted a different revelation of the SAME Supreme God.
!
Joseph D'Cruz
Panot <mrp...@mailexite.com> wrote in article
<34E809...@mailexite.com>...
[...]
> Sama juga dengan puasa,solat, zakat etc. U pun
> tau Muslim kena solat dan puasa...sebab itu undang2 Islam, tapi kenapa
> non-Muslim tak pertikaikan hukum yang menyuruh dan memaksa Muslim
> solat???
Kerana mereka itu masih menganuti agama Islam. Kalau mereka kata mereka
tak nak menganuti Islam lagi, dan mereka masih dipaksa solat, akan kita
pertikaikan juga. Tapi I setuju, kalau mereka masih Islam, kena ikut
undang2 Islam. Soalnya sekarang seorang yang *tidak* mahu menganuti Islam
lagi. Lain, kan?
> Bila Muslim yang tak puasa masa bulan Ramadhan kena tangkap, kenapa
> non-Muslim senyap aje??? kenapa tak ada non-muslim yang kata 'dia nak
> makan dia punye pasal le.???
Sama yang diatas - dia masih menganuti Islam. Kalau nak menganuti agama
kenalah ikut undang2 nya. Tapi kalau seorang *tak mahu* menganuti agama
itu, tak kan kita boleh paksa dia mengikut undang2 nya lagi.
> Muslim tak tegur undang2 non-Muslim tapi kenapa ramai non-Muslim yg tegur
undang2
> Islam??????
Kalau ada mana-mana agama bukan Islam yang cuba memaksa penganutnya tetap
masuk agama itu bila mereka tak mahu, tentulah kita akan tegur. I'm sure
orang Islam akan tegur juga! Cuba bayangkan kalau ada seorang Kristian nak
masuk agama Hinda, dan orang Kristian lain cuba memaksanya menganut
Kristian. Surely kita semua akan tegur, kan?
> > Memanglah, tapi Aishah Bokhari ini tak *masuk* Islam, kan? Dia
dilahirkan
> Islam, sekarang mahu masuk Kristian. Jadi *pilihan* nya untuk masuk
> Kristian. Jadi logiknya betul, tetapi terbalik. Kalau dia dah masuk
> Kristian, takkan dia nak ikut undang2 Islam pulak?... tak le logik..
> > [...]
>
> eheeemm...selama 15 tahun dia solat,puasa, bayar zakat tu semua untuk
> agama apa??? Borang dia masuk ITM dulu dia tulis agama dia
> Islam...kenapa dia tak tulis "belum masuk agama"??????
Jadi bila kita nak buat pilihan, masa kita masih bayi lagi? Kan pilihan
macam ini patut dibuat masa orang dah dewasa?
> I dilahirkan Islam dan I practised Islam untuk selama 25 tahun, so apa
> perlu I buat untuk I masuk Islam???
>
> Kalau parents U Christian, U pun dilahirkan sbg Christian dan U
> practised Christian as your religion until youre 30 years old, in that
> period, what is your religion??????Christian kan???? atau belum masuk
> Christian??????
Christian, tentunya. Tapi kalau saya pilih nak masuk agama lain, (pada
pendapat saya) orang lain tak patut memaksa saya masih menganuti Christian.
Kalau hati saya tak percaya, memaksa tubuh badan saya bersembah Tuhan
Christian itu tak bermakna, kan? Kan agama itu soal kepercayaan?
rha
The highest law of the earth is the religion law. No law created by human
can superseed the law of god. If someone break the law or your religion but
not the law of your constitutions, which one would you uphold. Unless you
don't have a religion, I believe you too would uphold the law of God rather
than law of the Human. If you are a christian and someone piss on jesus,
what do you do? Do you pat him on the back and say "Thank you for doing so.
I love it and please do it again" Whould you say that?
Stone Cold Steve Austin <Ston...@whoopass.com> wrote in article
<34E86F...@whoopass.com>...
> tukangkarut@feedME wrote:
> Funny...there's no law in the Constitution that says a person
> will be executed for switching religious camps...dadah got, religion
> tadak. Until now, I haven't heard of anyone being tried and executed
loud
To me , I believe in human life is precious. If you believe in
god or allah, during the final judgement day, he/she or them who are sinful
will be punish by god or allah.
At his moment, while we are on the earth, where there are different in
religious believe and different races, Let the law created by human control
and govern the land. I believe in peace.
Why must we resolve all our difference with
violent? WHy can we sit down and talk? Are we animal? Are we still
following the animal instinct within us?
If everyone just think about killing, when will there be peace in this
world?
--
Regards,
Loud
rha <r...@tm.net.my> wrote in article
<01bd3ae9$81ae0ba0$802ebcca@zer-melawati>...
tukangkarut@feedme
>
> Akulah Tan Sri wrote in message <34E7A5...@blank.bounce.add>...
>
> >The Islamic laws say that apostates have to be executed.
> >And as a law upholding muslim I stand by that law.
>
> The right to one own religion is a fundamental human right. You do not put a
> person to death for excercising that right.
I believe in Islamic laws as supreme and above and
beyond your definition of "human rights" So unless someone
can convince me that executing apostates is NOT a
part of Islamic Law, the law stands as it is and I support
it as a matter of faith.
> As I 've said in other forums
> regarding Nor Aishah, she has NOT changed her God or become an atheist ! She
> just changed 'Nabi' (Prophet) - accepted a different revelation of the same
> Supreme One God. The question of apostacy therefore does NOT arise !
Nice attempt to weasel out, BUT:
The Muslim concept of God is One Inseperable God,
a God that begets no children (Surah Al Ikhlas)
The Christian concept of God is a Trinity of a tripartite
God composed of Father, Son and Holy Ghost, each is God and
a part of God. Correct??
Any concept of God as being other than One is NOT
Islamic. So we can safely say she has changed her God,
not just her prophet.
And in addition the definition of apostasy is renouncing
the Islamic faith which she has done in a signed affidavit.
PLUS she renounced the faith on a phone conversation with
her father, and her father confirms this in an article I posted earlier.
I do not think she was threatened with her life at the
time she signed it so yes, she is an apostate unless
new evidence comes up.
----------
I am the Tan Sri. Your opinions do not matter.
Anyone who disagrees with me shall die.
------------------------------------------------------------------
tukangkarut@feedme
> >The Islamic laws say that apostates have to be executed.
> >And as a law upholding muslim I stand by that law.
>
> Does the spirit of the law say the same too ? I wonder. :)
>
I'm not a jurist so I can't comment on that.BUT,
I do not want to see "following the spirit of the law"
taken to the extremes that Paul did with the old Testament
laws. :)
>
> Reformation saved the Christian movement.
> A reformation may do the same to Islam too ... who knows. :)
>
Reformation caused a Church split.
I don't want to see the ummah split any more than it already is.
civilr...@hotmail.com
It is rather sad that a country that is at the verge of breaking out of it's
3rd world image has to be propelled back into the dark ages by such an
incident. Racial, as well as religious, tolerance is a virtue and should not
be regarded as the plague. In my humble opinion, a religion that has to enact
laws and rules to prevent people from leaving it must have something
intrinsically wrong with it and is afraid that it's followers might discover
that flaw and freely ex-communicate themselves. If this flaw did not exist,
the aforementioned religion would not need such drastic measures to maintain a
pseudo-loyal congregation. On the other hand, I do believe that people who
denounce their faith once are capable of doing that again. This might prove
that this particular person has no faith in the first. Nonetheless, this
person has the right do so in a democratic society. If this fundamental right
is stripped from the people... well then... the society plunges into the realm
of the fascists, Nazis, and the KKK... This is only my opinion. I am a true
believer of one's freedom to speak and believe as they wish... so long they do
not infringe upon another's freedom to do the same...
civilrights8