The Origin of the Berbers.
Abdelhak Sabri
A few weeks ago some maghreban brothers were debating the origin if the
ancient inhabitants of the maghreb. Brother Chafiq wanted a clean cut answer
for that question. The more research I made the more controversial this issue
became. There is no one straight answer as we would like to see it.
At the turn of the century, there were two conflicting theories. The first
one linked the ancient inhabitant of the Maghrib with the populations of
Europe. This theory might have developed with the French as they were the
sol authority on the pre-islamic history of the Maghrib. And the second sought their origin from the middle east. Today, however, there is a tendency to
favor the idea that the population consists of a mixture stabilizedin the
Neolithic era, of an old paleo-Mediterranean stock with two Mediterranean
groups which both came from western Asia but entered the Maghrib by two
different routes. The first via Northeast, where it tended to grow whiter
and the other via Southeast, after a long detour through East Africa, where
it crossbred with blacks.
This is just one example of how difficult this subject is.
Any contribution is greatly appreciated.
Shokran sabri
asa...@group1.com
Chafiq Halli
> Assalamu alaykum,
> A few weeks ago some maghreban brothers were debating the origin if the
>
> ancient inhabitants of the maghreb. Brother Chafiq wanted a clean cut answer
> for that question. The more research I made the more controversial this issue
> became. There is no one straight answer as we would like to see it.
Greeting,
I don't recall been in search of a clear cut answers, my points
were rather to point out how unclear is the splitting of
the maghrebans into arabs and berbers, which I think is nonsense
and it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt that there wer non amazigh
speakers in the maghreb a long time before the arrival of islam
that's all I said , and this could be corroborated by what
the Roman historians wrote about the region since they said that
Romans had been fiercly fought by the Moors and the Numidians
while the berbers got agitated when the news of the roman defeat
reached them...
But as you said , it is a mess and it is indeed pointless to
try to make sense out of nonsense.
Chafiq.
Kamal Hadidi
Tu te fais vraiment un plaisir de differencier entre maure, berberes, imazighen et numides. Ce ne sont que differentes appellations et a differentes epoques d'un meme peuple. Comme tu dois le savoir, le mot berbere vient des grecs, maure vient de Mauretanie qui designait la partie occidentale de l'afrique du nord (Maroc et ouest algerien) et numides de numidie qui designait la partie orientale (est algerien et Tunisie). Le mot Imazighen est la seule vraie appellation du peuple du Maghreb. L'influence d'en
vahisseurs tels que les Vandales, les Pheniciens etc... est indeniable, mais fondamentalement, l'origine de ce peuple reste la meme.
Chafiq Halli
Greeting,
I am not so sure what do you mean by " avoir du plaisir "
I just reminded you of what was my position, but in anycase
it would be nice if you could provide some refererence to corroborate
your statement "l'origine de ce peuple reste la meme"
I am not so sure about that , and it doesn't look to be the case
from what I managed to read..
Chafiq.
LAR...@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
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>References: <1994Jun17....@duke.group1.COM> <2ttvtr$8...@umd5.umd.edu>,<2tvc7m$a...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
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In one of my earlier mails I did mention to you that Numidians and Berbers
are the same people. I really don't know where you fished that reference
of yours to supposedly corroborate your statement that Numidians are
different from Berbers.
I would suggest to you one of the latest works which compiled most of
the theories about the origins of Imazighen (if you wish: berbers,
Libyans, Lebous, Numidians). I think it is the most up to date and
the most "scientific". It really evaluates all the possibilities and
tries to support the arguments with the latest archeological data.
The book is written by Gabriel Camps: Berberes en marge de l'histoire
Editions du CNRS, Paris, 1980 (?)
Please read it, it really will help you understand, and maybe you will
believe some of the netters after that. You see you got this one referenc
and you think you got it all figured. It will not hurt you to have
a little more faith in what others say, plus here is a good reference
that I am sure you will apreciate. I am not biased about this, ie, I chos
the reference because it is the best one when it comes to this matter
If you need more references, just let me know, I will send you a whole
list.
Ar tufat,
Hsen.
Chafiq Halli
>It would seem that you did not manage to read that much...
>In one of my earlier mails I did mention to you that Numidians and Berbers
>are the same people. I really don't know where you fished that reference
>of yours to supposedly corroborate your statement that Numidians are
>different from Berbers.
It would seem to me you would need to learn a bit of how to be
able to talk without offending people first then maybe you would
want to go and read some history second.
I DID READ YOUR UNCORROBORATED STATEMENT and I don't see now as
I didn't see then any logical reasons to why you think you hold
the truth especially that the Roman historians of that era
stated clearly the existence of Numidians and that they were fighting
agianst the Moors then the fact that the Berber tribes
were no threat to them , but just got agitated and wanted a share
of the victory after a lot of Moors gave up their lives to kick
out the Romans and stopped them.
Now this is what I gathered by reading That much and I don't
need you to tell me what to believe, thanks God.
So if you still think Numidians are berbers why don't you present
some proofs any passage from any book from your so exhaustive
list of reference !
by the way , I don't give a damn if the muslims were
thieves or invaders that came to the maghreb
so no need for you to start from there on , dig a little bit harder
and read about the region before that epoch.
Aufeder sehen
Chafiq
LAR...@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
I wrote:
>It would seem that you did not manage to read that much...
>In one of my earlier mails I did mention to you that Numidians and Berbers
>are the same people. I really don't know where you fished that reference
>of yours to supposedly corroborate your statement that Numidians are
>different from Berbers.
:It would seem to me you would need to learn a bit of how to be
:able to talk without offending people first then maybe you would
:want to go and read some history second.
did not read enough (well about this subject, that is what I mean)
:I DID READ YOUR UNCORROBORATED STATEMENT and I don't see now as
Well, when it comes to the obvious (which you don't seem to agree with)
who needs to corroborate anything. The problem here is that you are
standing behind your statement supported by that "lonely" reference your
of yours, you refuse to consult a reference suggested to you. You'd
rather me prove you wrong. Well, I am not here to do that because
I have better things to do. Believe me I did not mean to offend you
I just assumed that the only thing you knew about the subject was that
reference you cited. Because most works do say that Numidians are Berbers
I didn't see then any logical reasons to why you think you hold
misinterpreted at least in part.
I find it hard to imagine that you never made the connection between
the fact that Massinissa was the king of Numidia and that Massinissa
(The famous Webster says: Masinissa, 240-148 BC, king of Numidia).
There is a Webster around somewhere right?)
Look it up, I am not lyi
is an Amazigh (Berber) king. What about Jugurtha, didn't you read
that he succeeded to Massinissa and was the fiercest enemy of Rome
Never anyone mentioned to you that Jugurtha was betrayed by Bocchus
the king of Mauretania (western Algeria) Bocchus was his
father-in-law. Jugurtha thought he'd build an alliance with the other
Berber kingdom, but the Romans managed to convince Bocchus to deliver
him to them. Just because your author mentions Moors (inhabitants of Maur
etania) and Numidians, does not mean that they are not both Berbers.
In that context the author means simply two different kingdoms (geographi
cally speaking).
It was in fact this rivalry between the two kingdoms (since the Phenician
domination (where the rivalry was between Syphax and Massinissa) that
prevented Imazighen from building a strong nation in order to kick out
the Romans. Berbers, Numidians and in the more ancient times Libyans
the inhabitants of North Africa are all Berbers, Imazighen!
It never surprised you that the toponomy is pretty much uniform
throughout North Africa. Until today the old place-names are all Amazigh
To give you a few examples:
Tamanrasset (deep south of Algeria, Tuareg territory), Wargren (in the
Algerian desert, region inhabited by Iggargren), Agadir, Taroudant, in
the Sous (Morocco), Tafilalt in the High Atlas, taghit (wetern Algeria
near the Grand erg), Tagurart, etc. In Tunisia. Tunes (orginally Tunest)
itself is an
Amazigh name. Aghir (Djerba, Tunisia), Tataouine (pl of tit= eye, spring)
in Tunisia near the Libyan border. I can name place-names anywhere
from Egypt all the way to Tin n rif (Tenerrife) in the Canary Islands.
Besides the names that changed as a result of colonisation/invasion
by other people (Romans/Carthaginians/Turcs/Arabs/french) which we all
know are not natives of North Africa, the rest of the toponymy is all
Amazigh.
Getting back to the references well, you are criticizing the fact
that I gave you only one reference. The truth of the matter is I have a
lot of references. I just went to my database and pulled most relevant
references to this subject. I did not want to send it to the group
because it is very long but I am going to email it to you.
Anyone would like a copy of the list just email me.
I will finish with this excerpt from Mouloud Gaid's Aguellids et Romains
en Berberie, Office des publcations universitaires, Alger, 1985 (I think)
Page 12 and 13 he says:
A la veille de la conquete romaine, les romains designaient en Berberie
trois royaumes: le royaume des Massyles a l'est; le royaume des
Massassyles a l'ouest et celui des Maures au centre; mais ce dernier se
confondit souvent avec l'un ou l'autre jusqu'a l'avenement de Juba II. Il
existait bien des Getules (My note: these are Berbers as well) au sud
mais a cette epoque on ne les connaissait pas, ils ne se manifesterent
qu'a la naissance des Mourabitine, plus d'un millier d'annees apres, avec
les Sanhadja aux lithams.
L'etendue de ce territoires et les populations qui y residaient devaient
etre considerables, puisque les aguellids connus, tels Syphax, Massinissa
, Jugurtha, Juba II, disposaient de troupes importantes allant de 15000
a 50000 cavaliers et fantassins.
La puissance des aguellids (in Tamazight, it means king) dependait
beaucoup de leurs alliance internes et externes. Plus la confederation
de tribus est plus large, plus ses forces sont grandes et la position
de son aguellid est plus prepoderante en Berberie.
(This goes to explain the fighting between Numidians or Massyles
and later united with the Massaessyles, against the Moors. Juba II
king of Mauretania at a time when the Massyles or Numidians were crushed
after the betrayal of Jugurtha by Bochus, became very powerful and
his kingdom extended all the way to Cherchel (the capital). He erected
a temple (called today: le tombeau de la chretienne probably because of
her father) for his queen Cleopatra (a wedding blessed by the Romans)
daughter of Cleopatra and Marc Antonio, at a site near Tipasa (Algeria)
Gaid says:
Le royaume central des Maures passa tour a tour de l'autorite de Syphax
et de ses successeurs a celle de Massinissa et de ses descendants
(Jugurtha etc.) pour disparaitre ensuite en grande partie apres avoir
connu une certaine prosperite sous Juba II (This is the Amazigh king
raised in Rome, he was part of the booty once - taken after the romans
defeated his father) et Ptolomee son fils, et renaitre ensuite et prendre
de l'ampleur sous Firmus (Iferman) (this was a small kingdom in Central
Algeria, precisely in today's Kabylia, if you consult Notes sur l'histoir
e des Kabylies by Francois Dessommes, Editions du FDB, reedited by
Tira, Tizi-Ouzou, 1992, you'll find the story of Firmus' revolt)
Just so that there is no confusion about the name of Mauretania (inhabite
d by the Moors, ie Imazighen), there were actually two Mauretanias
One, called by the Romans Mauretanie Tingitane, corresponds roughly to to
today's Morocco and Western Sahara, while the other one (mostly
Algeria) was called Mauretanie Cesarienne.
On page 24, Gaid presents a table titled:
ROIS DE NUMIDIE (is there a doubt here?)
ILES
ZELACEN
GAIA OUSALCES
Massiva Massinissa
If you follow this genealogic tree you'll find:
Miscipsa, Gulussa, Mastanabal, etc..
Massiva, Gauda, Jugurtha...
Juba 1er etc...
You see even this author talks about Numides and Berbers. He does when
he says (page 32):
L'aile droite fut constituee par la cavalerie italienne, l'aile gauche
par les cavaliers de Massinissa, Syphax et Asdrubal formerent leur
centre avec les Celtiberes,, leur aile gauche avec les Numides, leur aile
droite avec les Carthaginois devant Massinissa.
This may be confusing to you but here is what the author means:
The army of Syphax king of Mauretania was the Numids (which may
even include soldiers hired outside the kingdom, ie people not under
his authority who are Numids ie Berbers). Asdrubal is Carthaginian.
Massinissa was fighting at the side of the Romans against Carthage
supported by his "cousin" Syphax. Essentially there were 4 armies
2 that are berber (Syphax and Massinissa) Note that the army
of Syphax and Asdrubal included Celtibers (Ibero-celts), I can only say
that they are mercenaries in the seervice of Carthage.
:the truth especially that the Roman historians of that era
Speaking of Roman historians, try reading Sallust, it contains a wealth
of information that I am sure will clear up a lot of things.
:stated clearly the existence of Numidians and that they were fighting
:agianst the Moors then the fact that the Berber tribes
:were no threat to them , but just got agitated and wanted a share
:of the victory after a lot of Moors gave up their lives to kick
:out the Romans and stopped them.
:Now this is what I gathered by reading That much and I don't
:need you to tell me what to believe, thanks God.
:So if you still think Numidians are berbers why don't you present
:some proofs any passage from any book from your so exhaustive
:list of reference !
you will find it useful
:by the way , I don't give a damn if the muslims were
:thieves or invaders that came to the maghreb
:so no need for you to start from there on , dig a little bit harder
:and read about the region before that epoch.
:Aufeder sehen
:Chafiq
data and I even bothered giving you what I think is the latest and best
reference. Again, I really did not mean to offend you, and forgive me if
I did. I just found it strange that you did not bother to check your
reference.
Sincerely,
Hsen.
Chafiq Halli
>Who said anything about Muslims? I only suggested to you to refer to more
>data and I even bothered giving you what I think is the latest and best
>reference. Again, I really did not mean to offend you, and forgive me if
>I did. I just found it strange that you did not bother to check your
>reference.
>
>Sincerely,
>Hsen.
I am not gonna say that I am convinced that Numidians or Moors are
berbers, for as you pointed out yourself, the usage of the words
by some authors did hint that they are not quite the same people,
I am not gonna speculate on that , and I sure think it is worth
reading and pondering about the pro islamic history of our region.
I don't check my reference, because I am not a professional historian nor that
I am planning to write a book of history so I don't see nor really have
the time to invest in double checking every bit of word written about
the region HOWEVER I wouldn't swallow things that don't make sense.
Why would historians speak about Numidians, Moors and Berbers
if they were the same people ? I really would stop here and have a look
at some of the reference you mentioned before I could formulate my
arguments for or against the idea.
Chafiq.