Maronites are Syrians?
ATayeh
Is it true that Maron, who established the Maronites, was a Syrian from Aleppo?
WMmikhail
Atayeh wrote:
<Is it true that Maron, who established the Maronites, was a Syrian from
Aleppo?
>
william
ATayeh
(WMmikhail) wrote:
>St. Maron he was a Syriac not Syrian. It is a big difference.
>william
ya3ni beenatna harfeen bas Syria(c) wa Syria(n).
ya3ni mashiha baqa. mat koon 3aneed.
ATayeh
(Maten1234) wrote:
>he was assyrian not syrian
kaman ente benatna harfeen (as) Syrian wa Syrian
samehna behalharfeen yarohi
Hereiam
yes he was....and knowing that most of maronites come from syria !!
ATayeh wrote in message <19980213044...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Elie Karkar
Hereiam wrote in message <34e49...@news.total.net>...
St. Maron was a Christian Syrian, he is a follower of Our Lord Jesus
"Christ" of Nazareth, who was a Jew and child of a Jewish Mother Mary...
Christianity as a Whole was drived from Jews who believed in Christ a jew by
birth!
So what is Exactly your Point!
Basil Keilani
I do not know where exactly St Maro or Mar Maron was from exactly.
He was born in the Apamea area of modern Syria between Antioch and Homs.
An exact location I can not quite say. Mar Maron was not a Syriac.
Modern Syrians are largely descendants of these peoples whether they are
Muslim or Christian. So, if a Maronite says he hates all Syrians, he
really hates himself. All Lebanese and Syrians have a link to the Syriac
people and are blood brothers. I think that is what you are saying.
We can say, at least, Mar Maron was not born or ever lived in what is
Lebanon. He never saw it. St John is buried in Damascus area as well.
Heard of St John the Syrian? However, Syrian does not mean Arab if one
uses the old definition. If you were Syrian, you were Aramaic.
Prior to Islam, though, Syrians were a mixture of Arab and Aramaic.
I must say, though, Maronites do not like to face this fact really and
want to minimize as much as possible any connexions to the Syrian people.
When a Maronite says "F.... Syria they are speaking about the birthplace
of St Maron!"
Basil
Basil Keilani
Atayeh, the correct answer was he was Suryoyo. As they would say
in his language Mar Maron etaw wi Suryoyo. Maro Maron was Syriac.
A Syrian of today is related to the Suryoyo or Syriac people.
In reality, the Syrian people are Muslim Syriacs and Christian Syrians, if
you follow. In the same way, Egyptians are Muslim and Christian Copts.
Mar Maron was born in modern Syria and that is the important fact.
It was Mar Youhanna Al Maroni who went to Lebanon.
Mar Maron was not an Arab and Syrians call themselves Arab today.
That is one problem with correlating Mar Maron to
modern Syrians. Some Syrians deny their history. However, there are
changes in that view, for example the Syrian money has
Phoenician/Canaanite writing. Whether Syrians call themselves Arab and
nothing else, they are still sons of the Suryoyo and so are the Lebanese.
Thus, they are of a common blood line. Since, Syrian comes from Suryoyo,
you can see Mar Maron was Syrian. Notice the name Egypt and Copt.
Religion is the reason there is a denial of relation. That is not
a valid excuse. Some Syriac were not even Christian and were in Aramaic
cults. In Harran, for example, some worshipped the stars.
The SSNP, in a strange way, seems to have a parallel with the
Assyrians. What the Assyrians call Assyria in territory, is basically
what the SSNP calls in territory. We are referring to Ancient Syria and
putting it back together. So it depends on how you define Syrian.
We define it without using religious and linguistic divisions.
Basil
Basil Keilani
He did not mean to say Assyrian. According to the Greek
Historians they called the present day Syria, Syria and not Assyria.
If the whole area was once called Assyria, it at least lost the letter
Alef and was called Syria when Maron was born, so, in a sense, he was
Syrian.
Nineveh is speaking of when supposedly all was part of Assyria.
The Assyrians called themselves Atoraya. However, others called they
Ashuri. Supposedly the name Syria derives from Assyria per the Assyrian
claim. It may be correct. One can not say. However, it does not change
that Mar Maron was born in modern Syria and it was not known as Assyria at
that time. The Romans did not call it that and neither did the Greeks.
Mar Maron was born under Roman controlled Syria. He was a Suryoyo.
Syrians of today are related to him.
Also, stop using religion. Not all Aramaeans or Suryoyo were
Christian. Even the Christians of that time, you would not recognize.
They practiced astrology and had different theological views.
Harran was a famous Aramaic pagan centre, so not all were Christian.
So I do not want this to be overlooked. So the Christian and Muslim
Lebanese trace to the Pagan Aramean culture.
Basil
Maan M. Hamze
Elie Karkar wrote in message <#xMTH4LO9GA.217@upnetnews04>...
>
>
>St. Maron was a Christian Syrian, he is a follower of Our Lord Jesus
>"Christ" of Nazareth, who was a Jew and child of a Jewish Mother Mary...
>
>Christianity as a Whole was drived from Jews who believed in Christ a jew
by
>birth!
>
>
7akyak derived from the word Jew wa kill 3oumrak you'll remain derived from
a jew and the son of a jew!
Maan
PS: The Christ is/was NOT a Jew! Elie Karkar was/is a Jew!
nin...@wwa.com
>>Is it true that Maron, who established the Maronites, was a Syrian from
>Aleppo?
I think you meant to say Assyrian, not Syrian.
WMmikhail
Basil wrote
<When a Maronite says "F.... Syria they are speaking about the birthplace
of St Maron!" >
william
ATayeh
I asked a simple question about the origin of Mar Maron. I needed a scientific
fact with some references. I came now to find members of the group quarrelling
and insulting each other. What is going on.
ATayeh
The question is not wether Mar Maron was Suryoyo, Syriac, Syrian, Assyrian,
Lebanese, Allebanese, or from Mars.
The question is why somebody can easily stir a fight among Lebanese.
nin...@wwa.com
> He did not mean to say Assyrian. According to the Greek
>Historians they called the present day Syria, Syria and not Assyria.
>If the whole area was once called Assyria, it at least lost the letter
>Alef and was called Syria when Maron was born, so, in a sense, he was
>Syrian.
The dropping or adding of the initial Allap in a word is an extremely common phenomenon
in Assyrian (from Akkadian to neo-Syriac). Here are some examples
Classical Modern English
Assyrian Assyrian
(Syriac) (Eastern)
agareh gareh roof
aookama kooma black
atmal timal yesterday
akhib mekhib to love
akdayta ktayta hen
amma yimma mother
astona stona pillar
aseereh yekhseereh prisoners
askoopta sqopta threshold
aspera speera omelet
asara/isoora yisoora tie
areekha yareekha long
yawla/yoola aoola lawn/turf
yabeesha beesha dry
yalda adla/yadla give birth
ltakht altakht below
ma-a amma one hundred
roomanta armoonta pomegranate
rpapa arpapa one second
There is no question that 'syria' comes from Assyria. (see below for more)
> Nineveh is speaking of when supposedly all was part of Assyria.
>The Assyrians called themselves Atoraya. However, others called they
>Ashuri. Supposedly the name Syria derives from Assyria per the Assyrian
Atori=atoraya=ashuraya=athoraya=soraya (in soraya tha initial allap is again dropped).
>claim. It may be correct. One can not say. However, it does not change
>that Mar Maron was born in modern Syria and it was not known as Assyria at
>that time. The Romans did not call it that and neither did the Greeks.
>Mar Maron was born under Roman controlled Syria. He was a Suryoyo.
>Syrians of today are related to him.
Your facts are wrong here. The Romans DID call it Assyria, of this there is no question.
In any case, It does not matter what the territory was called, since I am saying that
almost all Syriac speaking Christians are of Assyria descent, since they shared the same
language, culture and heritage, they had to be the same people.
> Also, stop using religion. Not all Aramaeans or Suryoyo were
>Christian. Even the Christians of that time, you would not recognize.
What? Soraya (or Suryoyo) is BY DEFINITION Christian. Get your facts straight.
Basil Keilani
I am not sure, I would go with the standard of just placing Jesus
as a Jew. He could have been culturally a Jew, but he could have had some
Canaanite roots. We do not know for sure. We do know one of his
disciples was definitely Canaanite. Even if Jesus was a Jew, he was using
Hellenic or Greek philosophy in his ideas. The New Testament is similar
to Platonic and Socratic writing and we know that is older than the New
Testament. There was also something called non-Hellenized Jews and
Hellenized Jews. That means Jews of non-Greek culture and Jews of Greek
culture. I am quite certain, Jesus had to speak Greek to communicate with
the Romans.
Basil
Basil Keilani
William, you mean they are speaking of Muslim Arabs. Is that what
you are saying? Of course, Syrian Christians are also against the
Maronite right wing, but not mainstream Maronites and this includes
Syrian Maronites. The commanding officer in the Bekaa valley is a Syrian
Maronite. I must add, they are against Christians who also side with
their countrymen against Israel rather than a narrow Maronite dream.
You know as well as I do, that the Suryoyo word for Arab is
Tayoyo. That emanates from the particular Arabic tribe called Tayy.
They existed in Syria prior to Islam. The same applies to Nabateans,
people of Bani Taghlib, Bani Ghassan.....
You have no problem, joining people who are said to have crucified
Jesus, who you guys claim to follow. The truth of the matter is the
Muslims and Syrian Christians fought side by side to rid themselves
of the Byzantines. Do you know the Syriac Jacobite army that fought side
by side with the Arab Muslims. Do not forget one of Mohammed (PBUH)'s
relatives was a Jacobite named Waraqa Ibn Nawfal.
Michel Aflaq was Syriac Orthodox in background. Yet, he was a
Syrian of modern Syria and connected to Syriac history. His ancestors wre
the ancestor of St Maron more than the Maronites of Lebanon.
William, you know as well as I do, that Lebanon has Nabataen
Arabic roots and Ghassanid roots and not just Syriac.
Our mothers taught us all to tell the truth, so tell it!
Basil
Basil Keilani
Nineveh, I am not interested in religion. I do not agree that
Suryoyo means 100% Christian. There are some pagan Syriac writings.
Pagan does not mean Christian, last time I remember. Unless, some day
someone will classify all our monotheistic religions as a pagan religion.
Also, many Suryoyo were into astrology and sometimes wrote strange
Christian things speaking of God in a motherly way. Perhaps, some
Aramoyo influence rather than an Aturi influence, since they emphasized
Assur originally.
I am certain that there were pagan Syriac writings. Most of the writings
we have today are Christian, but it does nto mean there were not pagan
Syriac writings. Also, you forget that in Harran many people were pagan.
One Aramoyo or Aramaic person called Thabet translated some works for
Muslims. He was not a Christian in faith. He followed the Aramoyo
religion. So, you must go through all your sources and ask an Aramaic
scholar. Many pagan groups still existed in Syria. I mean many pagan
groups. So, are you saying pagans were automatically non-Suryoyo
speaking? Well, you could be right or wrong. Some people still spoke
Western Aramaic. Did they in Harran? Also, Aramaic peoples were not
Assyrian. You are playing with terminologies to suit your criteria.
You know it does not work so nicely, right? Aramoyo is not Atoraya
exactly. Some Suryoyo were really Aramoyo.
In any case, Syria was called Syria during the Roman times.
There was an Assyria, but there was also a Syria. I am not wrong in this
regard. The Romans called a certain area Syria-Palestine and Syria
Phoenicia. So there is a problem with your naming and name changes are
important since we also are dealing with descendants of Suryoyo just
calling themselves Arab. If you read an Arabic Bible and an English
Bible, you will see a reference to a woman from Syria Phoenician and not
Assyria-Phoenicia area. I am going by what is said of the Roman sources
and the Biblical sources. What say you, now?
My conclusion is that Syrians are traced to an Aramaic culture.
This includes pure Aramean traces and Aramacizied Assyrians and later
Aramacized Arabs. Later, the Arabic label was added on top. This is more
a correct analysis of the situation. You are trying to give a black and
white analysis, Nineveh, and that is completely impossible. I could do
it, but I would be intellectually dishonest, if I do that. Syrians are
still Syrians and trace to the ancient culture.
Basil
According to a source I have, there are Suryoyo pagan writings.
So Suryoyo was initially not fully Christian. Do you want me to quote
it? I can quote the writer from England.
Maan M. Hamze
ATayeh wrote in message <19980214195...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>The question is not wether Mar Maron was Suryoyo, Syriac, Syrian, Assyrian,
>Lebanese, Allebanese, or from Mars.
>
>The question is why somebody can easily stir a fight among Lebanese.
>
Where are you from anyway? Which Arab country? Who gives you the right as
an Arab to come here and test to see what will happen. Was that your
intention? Really, where are u from? And what is exactly your point?
Maan
ATayeh
No. the aim is to aquire knowledge.
It strike me that people start insulting each other.
michel_najem
In article , ata...@aol.com says...
>
>No. the aim is to aquire knowledge.
>It strike me that people start insulting each other.
you shouldn't be surprised. Those airheads will never change. Imagine because
Mar maroun was born in a region called today Syria, all the maronites are
Syrian. Do you expect people with this level of intelligence to give you
knowledge?
nin...@wwa.com
> Nineveh, I am not interested in religion. I do not agree that
>Suryoyo means 100% Christian. There are some pagan Syriac writings.
You can choose to disagree, but the fact is that "soraya" was FIRST used by Mar
Aprim in the fourth century, and it meant Christian. That is why some Assyrians to this
day will ask if someone (a European) is a "Soraya" -- they mean is he a Christian?
> I am certain that there were pagan Syriac writings. Most of the writings
>we have today are Christian, but it does nto mean there were not pagan
>Syriac writings. Also, you forget that in Harran many people were pagan.
Before you gain your metaphysical certitude, you should research your facts better.
The Syriac language originated circa 50 A.D. -- That's Annu Dominum, the "Year
of our Lord"; I am aware of only a few non-Christian writings in Syriac (these are
steles of Ashur written in Syriac, which shows that although most Assyrians
converted to Christianity by 50 A.D., the original Assyrian religion survived
until 700 A.D.).
You must distinguish between Syriac and Aramaic. They are not necessarily the same.
>One Aramoyo or Aramaic person called Thabet translated some works for
>Muslims. He was not a Christian in faith. He followed the Aramoyo
>religion. So, you must go through all your sources and ask an Aramaic
>scholar. Many pagan groups still existed in Syria. I mean many pagan
>groups. So, are you saying pagans were automatically non-Suryoyo
>speaking? Well, you could be right or wrong. Some people still spoke
>Western Aramaic. Did they in Harran? Also, Aramaic peoples were not
>Assyrian. You are playing with terminologies to suit your criteria.
>You know it does not work so nicely, right? Aramoyo is not Atoraya
>exactly. Some Suryoyo were really Aramoyo.
Arameans are not Assyrians, however, they absorbed the Assyrian culture, since they
settled on the outskirts of the Assyrian heartland (now central Syria), and learned civilization
from Assyrians.
> My conclusion is that Syrians are traced to an Aramaic culture.
I think the western populations of Syria were Arameans. There have been many
archaeological discoveries recently in eastern Syria that show that this territory
was firmly in the Assyrian heartland (core).
ATayeh
>Maan M. Hamze wrote:
>Where are you from anyway?
I am not sure after this interesting discussions.
I could not have checked every tribesmen identity card before allowing them to
sleep with my grand-, grand-, .. and grandmothers.
It seems other clever people were able to check that.
Probably my blood is that of Sumerians, Accadean, Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman,
Greek, Persian, Arab, Saljuki, Turkish, Mamlouk, Kurdish, Armenian, Magol,
European (French and others). You name it.
But this word SURYOYO, it is great. It is very musical.
I will call my daughter SURYOYO.
abu el zoluf
In article <19980213044...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, ata...@aol.com
says...
>
>Is it true that Maron, who established the Maronites, was a Syrian from
Aleppo?
my friends YES WE MARONITE ARE PROUD TO BE ARAB WHO LEFT
IN SYRIAN AND WHO LIVE NOW IN LEBANON
Elie Karkar
who's we dude?
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abu el zoluf wrote in message <6c9aor$37jm$1...@www.univie.ac.at>...
Abu-Lshabab
Ah ya abu el Zuluf... AH... Kill el shabab bit7ibbak.
Basil Keilani
You are not Maronite. If you are, I will test you to see if you
are, in fact, Maronite. One, what does "Kadishat Hayanton Lo Mouto
Itraham Alayn" basically mean. We have many phony people in this world,
so I test out the various people to see if they are Jewish, Sunni,
Maronite. It does not matter what I am. I want to see if you are just
one of Golani's friends.
Anyway, the question is are Maronites Syrians and not are
Maronites Arabs or are Syrians Arabs? In any case, Mar Maron Hu Itaw Wo
Suryoyo. Itayn Suryoyeh. If you can understand that, that means Mar Maron
was Arab as you just said, because that is the way he used to speak.
The name Syria comes from the Sirriani people who were not Arabic.
They were part of an Aramaic/Assyrian mixed heritage. They are more
Aramaic than the Assyrians of Iraq, but people loosely put them together.
Mar Maron did not leave Syria, by the way. He died there. It
was Mar Youhanna Al Maroni who came to Lebanon. So if you were Maronite,
you should know that, I would think, but even some Maronites make that
mistake. Both Syria and Lebanon have traces to Aramaic history.
Lebanon comes from the word meaning white, but in Arabic white is Abyad.
The Maronites are both Aramaic (Phoenician+Aram) and
Arabic in culture and blood.. An honest person should admit both.
However, we are not just Arabic peoples, because then we would be Saudi
Arabians and that does not describe Levantines. You could also add the
Indo-European heritage we have
(Hittite-Kurdish-Persian/Achaemian/Greek/Roman Armenians and Crusaders).
Basil
See
Fertile Cresent Homepage
Elie Karkar
Golani get the fuck out of here... Ya Zionisto
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Abu-Lshabab wrote in message <6ca33m$k...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
jasonp
Basil Keilani wrote in message ...
Armaic not Greek, but close enough. During that time Rome was already
sliding into decadeance and ruin, the upper classes spoke Greek as a way to
prove their cultural enlightenment or some crap like that
-jasonp
jasonp
Basil Keilani wrote in message ...
>
> I am not sure, I would go with the standard of just placing Jesus
>as a Jew. He could have been culturally a Jew, but he could have had some
>Canaanite roots. We do not know for sure. We do know one of his
>disciples was definitely Canaanite. Even if Jesus was a Jew, he was using
>Hellenic or Greek philosophy in his ideas. The New Testament is similar
>to Platonic and Socratic writing and we know that is older than the New
>Testament. There was also something called non-Hellenized Jews and
>Hellenized Jews. That means Jews of non-Greek culture and Jews of Greek
>culture. I am quite certain, Jesus had to speak Greek to communicate with
>the Romans.
>
>
>Basil
>
>
As a decendant of the house of David there is no doubt that Jesus was a Jew,
even if he was part canaanite it makes him or any other person of mixed
racial heritage no less a Jew
-jasonp
Basil Keilani
Jesus, spoke Aramaic and so did most people in the lands of the
Syrian region including Palestine that was under Edomite tutelage.
Jesus was not a Greek, but could have been Greek in philosophical thought.
The Platonic thought is more humane than the Old Testament if one compares
the works of Plato, Aristotle, and the others to the Old Testament. It
was philosophy that enlightened the world. Supposedly, St Paul had some
Epicurean influence, but not enough, in my opinion. The Jewish were more
of a superficial order following ceremonies and not speaking of equality
with other peoples. For example, many Greek philosophers spoke about
"being citizens of the Cosmos". Jesus espoused a similar idea when it was
later put in the Bible "There is neither Jew, nor Greek, free man or
slave, woman or man all are one in Christ...".
Whether one believes in something called Christianity or not, is
not the point. The point is the message of the Christ was more humane and
he sought benefit to the Jewish people, Romans, and Greeks. He was not
ethnocentric. Jesus was Palestine's Buddha in a way, if you want to see
it that way. He preached peace and love. There were others who did such
as Isaiah when he said "Peace is the fruit of Justice". I believe the
Jews strayed from their won teachings, for according to original Jewish
teachings, God created man in his own image, entailing a spiritual
similarity. We are like God in our spirit in a certain way and are
supposed to mirror that. That is what Christian teaching emphasizes and
Islamic Sufism. In the Jewish teachings, it does not say God created
Jews in his image. They began to deviate with their hearts.
Anyway, if I were a Jew at that time, I would have been one of the
Hellenized Jews and not one of the Pharisees. The Hellenic civilization
was more open and not ethnocentric on the same level. It was also
culturally more sophisticated than Jewish culture. Jewish scientists did
not have their Aristotles, Euclids at that time.
Basil
ATayeh
Probably some of you have been offended by the title of this posting "Maronites
are Syrian" as they believe this is an insult to them. We have not asked the
Syrian their views. Because we think we are superior to others, then we think
others will be honoured by the association.
It is great to know history and to analyse history in unbiased manner. We
should not be selective in reading and understanding history. Basil gave an
example of reasonable illustration of our history. Some try to twist history to
suit a group and to create divisions.
I would like to ask: What is the difference between a tribesman with a dagger
attached to his belt and a distinguished university professor (who has 350
papers in his name, as he claim), as both asking for the same objective:
loyalty to a tiny tribe and not to a modern state.
If we want to build Lebanon we should use the history to our advantage .... as
we have great history ... to unite us and not to divide us.
Elie Karkar
marah nikhlass min Souriya il koubra il yom, lak zihitna inta wa hal
Chouhoud yahwa analogies...
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Basil Keilani wrote in message ...
>
ernestg...@hotmail.com
As Elie said... Who is we??? Please use I.
In article <OGU5wp8...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>,
"Elie Karkar" <kar...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> Golani get the fuck out of here... Ya Zionisto
>
> --
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> Abu-Lshabab wrote in message <6ca33m$k...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
> >Ah ya abu el Zuluf... AH... Kill el shabab bit7ibbak.
> >
> >abu el zoluf wrote:
> >
> >> In article <19980213044...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
> ata...@aol.com
> >> says...
> >> >
> >> >Is it true that Maron, who established the Maronites, was a Syrian from
> >> Aleppo?
> >> yes he was an arab he was a syrian that what he was
> >> my friends YES WE MARONITE ARE PROUD TO BE ARAB WHO LEFT
> >> IN SYRIAN AND WHO LIVE NOW IN LEBANON
> >
> >
> >
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Basil Keilani
Nineveh, you said most Assyrians converted to Christianity, but
it can not be said that all did. Why? Many Aramaic cults survived in
Syria up to late Christian periods and existed at the time of the Islamic
conquest. Not all Arameans were Christian in Syria and not all Syrians
spoke the Syriac language. There were many people who spoke Western
Aramaic. Even today, in Syria, you have people in Ma'aloula who speak
Western Aramaic as their first language.
It is hard to say who absorbed what culture. Since, it was
Assyrians who absorbed the Aramaic language, one could say they absorbed
Aramaic culture. Since we know that Aramaic survived in Syria it does not
mean all Syrians were Syriac. Syria was synonymous with Aram and many of
its speakers spoke Western Syriac rather than Eastern Syriac.
It can not be necessarily said that Syriac speakers were Assyrian since
they were sons of Arameans.
It can only be said there was a theological and linguistic union
between Iraq and Syria. That does not mean being one ethnic group.
For sure, the Syrians and Iraqis were not exactly the same.
The Syrians were not of an Akkadian based culture, rather an Aramaic based
one, but all the region became Aramaic, but not by religious conquests as
was the case with Arabic spreading.
Basil
nin...@wwa.com
> Nineveh, you said most Assyrians converted to Christianity, but
> it can not be said that all did. Why? Many Aramaic cults survived in
First, when I say most Assyrians converted to Christianity, I do not mean
they all did so simultaneously. But it is clear that the majority had
converted by 50 A.D., and by 800 A.D. ALL had converted.
Second, I am not discussing Arameans. Arameans are not Assyrians.
> It is hard to say who absorbed what culture. Since, it was
> Assyrians who absorbed the Aramaic language, one could say they absorbed
> Aramaic culture. Since we know that Aramaic survived in Syria it does not
> mean all Syrians were Syriac. Syria was synonymous with Aram and many of
> its speakers spoke Western Syriac rather than Eastern Syriac.
The eastern half of Syria, as it is known now, from Habur eastward, was
the core of Assyria, and the people living here were Assyrians. It is into
this territory the Arameans began their invasions. Syria was NOT synonymous
with Aram, as is evidenced from the writings of the Assyrians themselves.
When Arameans moved into the Habur region, Assyrians characterized the invasion
as an intrusion into the heartland.
> It can not be necessarily said that Syriac speakers were Assyrian since
> they were sons of Arameans.
Do not confuse language with identity. Syriac is the language that Assyrians
spoke circa 100 A.D. and after. Syriac certainly derives from Aramaic, but
the people who speak it are not Arameans, they are Assyrians.
> It can only be said there was a theological and linguistic union
> between Iraq and Syria. That does not mean being one ethnic group.
There was much more than that. A theological and linguistic union implies
that there was already a cohesive unity -- a common Assyrian ethnicity.
> For sure, the Syrians and Iraqis were not exactly the same.
> The Syrians were not of an Akkadian based culture, rather an Aramaic based
> one, but all the region became Aramaic, but not by religious conquests as
> was the case with Arabic spreading.
Again, I am not discussing Arameans. I am talking about Assyrians, whose
heartland was not not only in North Iraq, but also East Syria.
Basil Keilani
On 22 Feb 1998 nin...@wwa.com wrote:
>
> First, when I say most Assyrians converted to Christianity, I do not mean
> they all did so simultaneously. But it is clear that the majority had
> converted by 50 A.D., and by 800 A.D. ALL had converted.
[Basil] You stated 800 AD, which is after the Islamic period by 100 years.
That does raise some questions to just say all Syriac speakers were
necessarily Christian and there were no pagan beliefs. It is not to say,
that the majority were not Christian. Today, as we understand it,
Syriac speaker means automatically a Christian. However, how was it
viewed in AD 600 is another question.
>
> Second, I am not discussing Arameans. Arameans are not Assyrians.
[Basil] Syriac speakers existed in various parts of Syria. Mar Maron was
not located in what was Eastern Syria or in Iraq. He lived in closer to
the Western parts of Syria towards the Coast. He could have been
a Syriac speaker of Aramaic descent. Assyrians of Iraq could be certainly
descendants of Assyrians, but not necessarily the Syriac speakers
of Mar Maron's entourage. Mar Maron's area was definitely historically
Aramaic. You basically say that when you point to the Eastern part of
Syria, where he was not from.
>
> The eastern half of Syria, as it is known now, from Habur eastward, was
> the core of Assyria, and the people living here were Assyrians. It is into
> this territory the Arameans began their invasions. Syria was NOT synonymous
> with Aram, as is evidenced from the writings of the Assyrians themselves.
> When Arameans moved into the Habur region, Assyrians characterized the invasion
> as an intrusion into the heartland.
>
[Basil] You are using an Assyrian account. What is the Aramoyo version.
Perhaps, the Arameans were settled in that area prior to Assyrians but
lost it in battles. There were battles where Assyrians sacked Aramaic
areas. According to the American heritage dictionary, Syria is synonymous
with ancient Aram. At what period it became Aram is another story.
The Assyrians were originally inhabiting the northern parts of Iraq along
with the Sumerians. They were Akkadians. There were some Arameans in
Iraq as well, I believe. How do you draw your boundaries and for what
political purposes? I am not saying you are incorrect, but do you know for
sure Akkadians were the first settlers in Eastern Syria.
> > It can not be necessarily said that Syriac speakers were Assyrian since
> > they were sons of Arameans.
>
> Do not confuse language with identity. Syriac is the language that Assyrians
> spoke circa 100 A.D. and after. Syriac certainly derives from Aramaic, but
> the people who speak it are not Arameans, they are Assyrians.
[Basil] The majority of people in Syria spoke Syriac more than Aramaic,
but Syria was known for its Aramaic heritage more than Syriac heritage.
You are assuming that Syriac speakers of Syria have not Aramaic descent
just because they adopted Syriac, which is an Aramaic language.
Why could not an Aramean make that dialectical transition?
> > It can only be said there was a theological and linguistic union
> > between Iraq and Syria. That does not mean being one ethnic group.
>
> There was much more than that. A theological and linguistic union implies
> that there was already a cohesive unity -- a common Assyrian ethnicity.
[Basil] It does not mean that Aramaic tribes were in reality Syriac
speakers that you are including under your Assyrian umbrella, which you
could get away with as saying they were one Syriac ethnic group.
Can you for certain say Mar Maron had not Aramaic descent.
For me, a Syriac is an Aramean and an Assyrian, and they both have
a heritage in Syria. I take a more complex way at looking at this, rather
than just boil it down to a black and white analysis, which is what you
are doing.
[Basil] Two Questions. Do you consider that Harran was Assyrian land
though there were Western Aramaic speakers there?
2) How can you believe an Assyrian homeland is possible now that the Kurds
effectively have an autonomous area in Iraq and may possibly have the
power to secede from Iraq, though many Arabs are not aware of their power
and the weak hold of Iraq's government?
Basil
nin...@wwa.com
>
>
>On 22 Feb 1998 nin...@wwa.com wrote:
>
>>
>> First, when I say most Assyrians converted to Christianity, I do not mean
>> they all did so simultaneously. But it is clear that the majority had
>> converted by 50 A.D., and by 800 A.D. ALL had converted.
>
>[Basil] You stated 800 AD, which is after the Islamic period by 100 years.
>That does raise some questions to just say all Syriac speakers were
>necessarily Christian and there were no pagan beliefs. It is not to say,
>that the majority were not Christian. Today, as we understand it,
>Syriac speaker means automatically a Christian. However, how was it
>viewed in AD 600 is another question.
My statement about Ashur worshipping Assyrians circa 800 A.D. is based on recent
discoveries of steles for Ashur (the original religion of the Assyrians) dating from the 8th
century A.D. The fact remains, however, that the overwhelming majority (99%) of Syriac
speakers were indeed Christians by about 400 A.D. at the latest.
>> Second, I am not discussing Arameans. Arameans are not Assyrians.
>
>[Basil] Syriac speakers existed in various parts of Syria. Mar Maron was
>not located in what was Eastern Syria or in Iraq. He lived in closer to
>the Western parts of Syria towards the Coast. He could have been
>a Syriac speaker of Aramaic descent. Assyrians of Iraq could be certainly
>descendants of Assyrians, but not necessarily the Syriac speakers
>of Mar Maron's entourage. Mar Maron's area was definitely historically
>Aramaic. You basically say that when you point to the Eastern part of
>Syria, where he was not from.
There is correspondence between Mar Aprim (an Assyrian) and Mar Maron which clearly
shows the ethic sameness of the two. Mar Aprim addresses Mar Maron as "my brother"
and instructs him to keep the land in the hands of the "sorayeh". Such patriotic advice
can only come from a shared sense of ethnicity.
>> The eastern half of Syria, as it is known now, from Habur eastward, was
>> the core of Assyria, and the people living here were Assyrians. It is into
>> this territory the Arameans began their invasions. Syria was NOT synonymous
>> with Aram, as is evidenced from the writings of the Assyrians themselves.
>> When Arameans moved into the Habur region, Assyrians characterized the invasion
>> as an intrusion into the heartland.
>>
>[Basil] You are using an Assyrian account. What is the Aramoyo version.
What does it matter what the Arameans say? The Assyrians said that eastern
Syria was their core, and they built palaces and lived there (two palaces were
discovered in the last two years).
>Perhaps, the Arameans were settled in that area prior to Assyrians but
>lost it in battles. There were battles where Assyrians sacked Aramaic
The Aramean migrations are well documented. You are speculating without basis.
>areas. According to the American heritage dictionary, Syria is synonymous
>with ancient Aram. At what period it became Aram is another story.
This is a very bad point, as it mixes terms used from different periods, and which
had different meanings at different times.
>The Assyrians were originally inhabiting the northern parts of Iraq along
>with the Sumerians. They were Akkadians. There were some Arameans in
Assyrians were not Akkadians. Assyrians were (and are) Assyrians. They said so themselves
in their clay tablets.
>Iraq as well, I believe. How do you draw your boundaries and for what
>political purposes? I am not saying you are incorrect, but do you know for
>sure Akkadians were the first settlers in Eastern Syria.
There is not evidence of Akkadians settling Eastern Syria.
>> > It can not be necessarily said that Syriac speakers were Assyrian since
>> > they were sons of Arameans.
>>
>> Do not confuse language with identity. Syriac is the language that Assyrians
>> spoke circa 100 A.D. and after. Syriac certainly derives from Aramaic, but
>> the people who speak it are not Arameans, they are Assyrians.
>
>[Basil] The majority of people in Syria spoke Syriac more than Aramaic,
Because Syriac became the lingua franca of ALL the Middle East.
>[Basil] Two Questions. Do you consider that Harran was Assyrian land
>though there were Western Aramaic speakers there?
Harran was the last place the Assyrian royalty retreated to after the fall of Assyria.
It is definitely Assyrian.
>2) How can you believe an Assyrian homeland is possible now that the Kurds
>effectively have an autonomous area in Iraq and may possibly have the
>power to secede from Iraq, though many Arabs are not aware of their power
>and the weak hold of Iraq's government?
This is a different question. My belief is that the Kurds will never be allowed to establish
a state. Assyrians, on the other hand, will reestablish their state - it is God's prophecy.