Syria and Lebanon
Oscar Zoghbi
Syria is responsible by law for the protection of the Lebanese citizens
either in its capacity as protector or invader. It has failed miserably
in doing that, and instead it is allowing our people to be massacred by
barbaric forces wihtout lifting its fingers and our country destroyed
yet again. Shame on them, shame on whoever support them and accept
their role in Lebanon. We should be asking the immediate withdrawal of
the syrian forces from Lebanon as of yesteday and our Lebanese guns
should be directed at all the intruders without exception, syrians
and israelis alike
Oscar Zoghbi
Azim Hamoud
: Where is Syria now? Where are the guns of Assad the mouse?
The Syrian AAA did fire at the Israelis fighters, a Syrian
army base was hit yesterday, one Syrian soldier died and 12
were wounded. Read or hear the news before you hit the send
key.
edwina farah
where they are should stand together on this one..It just breaks my heart
to see innocent children go through what we did years back. It should not be
allowed to happen, we are strong .We can fight it.
KAROUNI A
: Where is Syria now? Where are the guns of Assad the mouse?
: in doing that, and instead it is allowing our people to be massacred by
: barbaric forces wihtout lifting its fingers and our country destroyed
: yet again.
True.
: Shame on them, shame on whoever support them and accept
: their role in Lebanon. We should be asking the immediate withdrawal of
: the syrian forces from Lebanon as of yesteday
Insults..
: and our Lebanese guns
: should be directed at all the intruders without exception, syrians
: and israelis alike
nonsens..
Sorry for not having enough time for the hatred against Syria.
I understand your frustration and feeling, but you should know that Israel
objective IS to drag Syria into a war that destroys Syria's strenght at
the negociation table. No one argues the Israeli military supremacy.
But Syria's role in helping keeping the internal peace in Lebanon is
debatable under the issue of how much the lebanese can tryst each other.
The issue now is the WILL of Israel to destroy the peace process and the
power struggle inside Israel.
Ja@far
r.jo...@mail.utexas.edu
>Where is Syria now? Where are the guns of Assad the mouse?
>Syria is responsible by law for the protection of the Lebanese citizens
>either in its capacity as protector or invader. It has failed miserably
>in doing that, and instead it is allowing our people to be massacred by
>barbaric forces wihtout lifting its fingers and our country destroyed
>and israelis alike
>
Ya Khayyi,
As far as their political role in Lebanon is concerned, the Syrians are
not "patrons". They are manipulators. They manipulate the Lebanese for
their own domestic and foreign policy ends. They want Hizbollah to have
free reign in the South so that they can exert pressure on Israel for
their own advantage. They profess to be "brothers" only insofar as
Lebanon remains a paraplegic which they can control.
They should be asked to leave unconditionally.
Richard
Lord Khouri
I can only say one thing about this matter, and that is Lebanon once
again has to be the battle ground for a wasteful confrontation. Israel
under their paranoid attitude has retailiated in a manner that can only
be said as OVER KILL. I guess to the "enemy" there is no face, even
though it may be the face of innocent lebanese civilians. It seems to me
that the only way that Lebanon will know true peace, is that militant
organizations such as the Hizbolla disarm and leave. Syria and it's
30,000 soldier pack their bags and get off Lebanese soil, Isreal backs
off the 9 mile security zone in the south, and that the Lebanese people
themselves learn how to cooexist. Once this happens then maybe Lebanon
will know peace, but until then I don't know. With all these events
occuring now, with Isreal, Hezbolla attacks, and Syria's complacent
attitide. This must be an indication that enough is enough, and that
Lebanon must stand on its feet and fight all "non-Lebanese". Until then
all the reconstruction efforts and all the peace attempts will fail, and
that is an upsetting thought.
Salim Khouri
Oscar Zoghbi
>Oscar Zoghbi (sol...@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
>: Where is Syria now? Where are the guns of Assad the mouse?
>
>
>
> army base was hit yesterday, one Syrian soldier died and 12
> were wounded. Read or hear the news before you hit the send
> key.
>
attacking Israel itself, instead of sitting like lame ducks. Or is your
army good only at attacking and butchering innocent civilians in Lebanon
and Syria. You should blitz Israel like you did Lebanon.
More over, it is the Syrian responsiblity to defend Lebanon and its
people, but Assad the mouse has a different agenda.
Next time I hit the send key, I will be sending you back to your country.
Oscar Zoghbi
Oscar Zoghbi
>The issue now is the WILL of Israel to destroy the peace process and the
>power struggle inside Israel.
>
>Ja@far
>
This is an extraordinary statement to make!! you want to make peace at
the expense of these poor women and children? This is definitely a
strategy for the coward and the mice. Let me repeat, if you cannot defend
our people, then get out.
As to the Lebanese people trusting each other, this is our problem. I
believe that lots of us have learnt from this war which was imposed on us
by the likes of Syria. A dictator hiding behind his military machine, and
using it only on innocent civilians.
Oscar Zoghbi
Azim Hamoud
: ham...@crl.com (Azim Hamoud) wrote:
: >Oscar Zoghbi (sol...@dircon.co.uk) wrote:
: >: Where is Syria now? Where are the guns of Assad the mouse?
: >
: >
: >
: > The Syrian AAA did fire at the Israelis fighters, a Syrian
: > army base was hit yesterday, one Syrian soldier died and 12
: > were wounded. Read or hear the news before you hit the send
: > key.
: >
: Ya Azin inte, Where are your planes, and your big guns, why are you not
: attacking Israel itself, instead of sitting like lame ducks. Or is your
I7terna ma3ak!! first u said they didn't do a thing, no yu are
asking for the palnes and big guns !! That Syrian soldier who
died in Lebanon has a family, a mother and father just like the
rest who died because of this indiscriminate bombing. What
is at hand now is an agression by the Israelies, you both
are losing loved ones, you can either join in telling the
world about this agression, or you can go to the presidential
palace in Damascus and tell Assad what you think of him.
: army good only at attacking and butchering innocent civilians in Lebanon
: and Syria. You should blitz Israel like you did Lebanon.
you can talk all you want about Assad, what good will that do you
when your brothers are getting killed as we speak by the hands
of the Israelis? The Lebanese (the shi3as) are losing lives, the
Syrians are losing lives, go pick up your AK-47 and fight with them
instead of saff el 7aki taba3k :(
: More over, it is the Syrian responsiblity to defend Lebanon and its
: people, but Assad the mouse has a different agenda.
: Next time I hit the send key, I will be sending you back to your country.
I've never been to Lebanon, I don't think I will ever go there, where
do you want to send me , from where ? how ? what the hell are you
talking about, is this el marjala taba3ak ??
look Oscar, your pain is my pain, we are both losing lives, have
some respect to the dead even if they are Syrians. Believe me
the mother of that dead soldier will be as sad as the mothers of
those who died in the south, unfortunatly you have showed no
remorse for those who died for your land..min kizzb ao sa7ee7..
: Oscar Zoghbi
ya 7asrra :(
Michel Najem
>Where is Syria now? Where are the guns of Assad the mouse?
>either in its capacity as protector or invader. It has failed miserably
>in doing that, and instead it is allowing our people to be massacred by
>barbaric forces wihtout lifting its fingers and our country destroyed
>yet again. Shame on them, shame on whoever support them and accept
>their role in Lebanon. We should be asking the immediate withdrawal of
>the syrian forces from Lebanon as of yesteday and our Lebanese guns
>should be directed at all the intruders without exception, syrians
>and israelis alike
>Oscar Zoghbi
we, I mean the Syrian installed government not me, a defense treaty with
the Syrians. Syria today and yesterday failed to meet its conditions. What is
then the use of such treaty?
The second thing I would like to add is where is the Arab world? It took them
four days to start talking and it only came from Saudi Arabia. Did they give
a green light to such operation?
The only solution for our country is that UN resolutions 425 and 520 should
be implemented. All Foreign forces(Israelies, Syrians,...) should be out.
Michel (This doesn't mean I hate but it is time to have peace with all of
our neighbors.)
Oscar Zoghbi
[...}
Azim, I do not wish to fight with you, but please do not antagonise me in
this difficult period we are going through.OK?
However, I would like you to understand one thing once and for all:
As an occupying army, based on International law, and based on the
intergovernmental agreements, Syria is obligated to defend Lebanon and
its people. Either they do that or they go back home. You cannot argue
with that. These are the facts.
You are cleverly asking me to go and talk to assad or carry a gun and
fight:
Well, ya Azim, if I had the opportunity to fight, then I would not need
you or anyone else to ask me to do that. But I can't. However, This SCL
is about debate between people, and not about wars. Either you are up to
this debate, or you can leave and go somewhere else. So please spare me
this naive talk of going to talk to assad the mouse and carry ak-47 and
fight.Capice?
>where do you want to send me , from where ? how ? what the hell are you
> talking about, is this el marjala taba3ak ??
Ya Azim, Ya Azim. I am not in a position to take you anywhere, nor do I
want to send you anywhere. You attacked me without understanding what I
was saying. Your sarcastic remark was uncalled for. So, my reply was
understandably sarcastic.But, please, if you cannot take it, do not dish
it out. Capice? I was attacking syria and your mouse. You should be able
to understand the sarcasm in my answer.It was not marjale or anything
else. This is not my style.
> look Oscar, your pain is my pain, we are both losing lives, have
> some respect to the dead even if they are Syrians. Believe me
> the mother of that dead soldier will be as sad as the mothers of
> those who died in the south, unfortunatly you have showed no
> remorse for those who died for your land..min kizzb ao sa7ee7..
I am very sorry, extremely sorry, that our people are losing their lives.
I am in great pain and anguish over that. So, YOU talk to your mouse, and
ask him to use his guns usefully at least for once.
Oscar Zoghbi
Pierre Abs
> Ya Azin inte, Where are your planes, and your big guns, why are you not
> attacking Israel itself, instead of sitting like lame ducks. Or is your
> army good only at attacking and butchering innocent civilians in Lebanon
> and Syria. You should blitz Israel like you did Lebanon.
> More over, it is the Syrian responsiblity to defend Lebanon and its
> people, but Assad the mouse has a different agenda.
> Next time I hit the send key, I will be sending you back to your country.
> Oscar Zoghbi
the saying "assadon fee lubnan, wa kalbun fil juulan" doesn't stand
anymore. ya3ni inta kameen ya oscar you're carrying on an argument about
this? i thought it couldn't get more ridiculous than the Lebanese army
shooting it's AAA's in the air, but the syrians too?? ya di3an all the
money assad spent on arming the country while his poor population
couldn't get milk to drink.
pierre
10453
Pierre Abs
> look Oscar, your pain is my pain, we are both losing lives, have
> some respect to the dead even if they are Syrians. Believe me
> the mother of that dead soldier will be as sad as the mothers of
> those who died in the south, unfortunatly you have showed no
> remorse for those who died for your land..min kizzb ao sa7ee7..
ya azim, my friend, i appreciate your openmindedness, although you are
syrian, but you see that poor syrian who died had absolutely no business
being on Lebanese soil in his uniform. it is the likes of that soldier
that perpetuate this state of affairs in our Lebanon. mind you, i am in
no way blaming the syrian soldiers, as they are not suppressing our
population and sucking our blood out of their own volition. soldiers
receive order and professionally carry them out. i have seen my country
fall from the top of the world to become a garbage dump for the world's
trash. maybe me and 3 millions of Lebanese are wrong, and syria's
presence in lebanon is for our benefit, but this weeks episodes didn't do
anything to enforce that. syrian presence in lebanon had a purpose to
help and protect the Lebanese, something that the Lebanese were
incapacitated of doing. i don't think firing a few AAA rounds at a
helicopter was sufficient, and believe me, they did it with no intent of
hitting the helicopters, because we saw the syrians in 1982 in the bekaa,
and all over Lebanon. shefneehon fo', wu shefneehon taHt. so please
spare us the propaganda, we get enough from syrian lovers on this
newsgroup... but we do appreciate the input ;)
pierre
10453
Azim Hamoud
: ham...@crl.com (Azim Hamoud) wrote:
: [...}
: Azim, I do not wish to fight with you, but please do not antagonise me in
: this difficult period we are going through.OK?
Who told you I want to fight with you ? You claimed
that the Syrians did not do anything, I corrected you.
I am not interested in a fight with you , it wont stop
the IDf from bombing Lebanon, it will only make the Israelies
who are reading this laugh at us.
: However, I would like you to understand one thing once and for all:
: As an occupying army, based on International law, and based on the
: intergovernmental agreements, Syria is obligated to defend Lebanon and
: its people. Either they do that or they go back home. You cannot argue
: with that. These are the facts.
The Syrians didn't lose a soldier because he was taking a sun bath
in Beirut.
: You are cleverly asking me to go and talk to assad or carry a gun and
: fight:
: Well, ya Azim, if I had the opportunity to fight, then I would not need
: you or anyone else to ask me to do that. But I can't. However, This SCL
: is about debate between people, and not about wars. Either you are up to
: this debate, or you can leave and go somewhere else. So please spare me
: this naive talk of going to talk to assad the mouse and carry ak-47 and
: fight.Capice?
NO. I am asking you to refrain from making sarcastic comments
about the Syrians in Lebanon, this is not the time to make
such comments. The Syrians are in a no-win position when it comes
to SCL, if they don't do a thing you ask why, if they do you
ask why not air planes, if they do that someone else will jump
and say why Syria is fighting its war over Lebanon. ya3ni
with you guys it is sayem mal3oun..miffter mal3oun
: >where do you want to send me , from where ? how ? what the hell are you
: > talking about, is this el marjala taba3ak ??
: Ya Azim, Ya Azim. I am not in a position to take you anywhere, nor do I
: want to send you anywhere. You attacked me without understanding what I
: was saying. Your sarcastic remark was uncalled for.
No. I didin't attack you, I asked you to listen to the news
before you start complaining about the syrians. Even the
syrian casualty didn't stop you from showing your hate. What
were you saying ? you were saying the Syrians didn't do anything,
I told you to check the news.
So, my reply was
: understandably sarcastic.But, please, if you cannot take it, do not dish
: it out. Capice? I was attacking syria and your mouse. You should be able
: to understand the sarcasm in my answer.It was not marjale or anything
: else. This is not my style.
Take what wlo ????? if you don't what is going on, don't jump
the gun !!!!!
: > look Oscar, your pain is my pain, we are both losing lives, have
: > some respect to the dead even if they are Syrians. Believe me
: > the mother of that dead soldier will be as sad as the mothers of
: > those who died in the south, unfortunatly you have showed no
: > remorse for those who died for your land..min kizzb ao sa7ee7..
:
: I am very sorry, extremely sorry, that our people are losing their lives.
: I am in great pain and anguish over that. So, YOU talk to your mouse, and
: ask him to use his guns usefully at least for once.
It is amusing how you turn from being sorry to insulting..
again, this not the time , nor the place to show our dirty
laundary ya Oscar, I'll be happy to tell what I think of you
or your likes ya Oscar..bass ma badna nDha77ik el 3ida 3alyna..
: Oscar Zoghbi
Oscar Zoghbi
>
>: I am very sorry, extremely sorry, that our people are losing their lives.
>: I am in great pain and anguish over that. So, YOU talk to your mouse, and
>: ask him to use his guns usefully at least for once.
>
> It is amusing how you turn from being sorry to insulting.
> again,
When I say I am sorry, I mean it, otherwise I would not say it.But at
least I managed to amuse somebody. And BTW why are you so insulted?
But it is true La verite blesse.
> this not the time , nor the place to show our dirty
> laundary ya Oscar
When is the time to ask Syria to intervene? What should we wait for?
> I'll be happy to tell what I think of you
> or your likes ya Oscar..bass ma badna nDha77ik el 3ida 3alyna..
Lah ya Azim, nazahta! Where did I go wrong? What is wrong with the likes
of me? Because I care? Please advise me, so I can take corrective action.
I am always one for learning.
Oscar Zoghbi
BILLY
On 13 Apr 1996, Oscar Zoghbi wrote:
> Where is Syria now? Where are the guns of Assad the mouse?
> Syria is responsible by law for the protection of the Lebanese citizens
> either in its capacity as protector or invader. It has failed miserably
> in doing that, and instead it is allowing our people to be massacred by
> barbaric forces wihtout lifting its fingers and our country destroyed
> yet again. Shame on them, shame on whoever support them and accept
> their role in Lebanon. We should be asking the immediate withdrawal of
> the syrian forces from Lebanon as of yesteday and our Lebanese guns
> should be directed at all the intruders without exception, syrians
> and israelis alike
> Oscar Zoghbi
>
>
Well, we did hear that the Syrians were hit.. However, we did not
hear that they hit back... Oscar the Syrians are not interested in
protecting Hezbollah. Israel just hit a power plant, Syrians, but they
mostly hit Shiites. The other few non-Shiite targets were to tell Syria
and Hariri to hit Hezbollah. However, knowing Syria and Hariri they will
not do anything. Also, there is nothing the Lebanese army can do, because
under Taef they are more or less under Syrian power..... So, even if the
Lebanese army wanted to control Hezbollah and deal with Israel army to
army. Lebanon is not being allowed by Syria to deal with her neighbour as
soveriegn country to sovereign country.... It is a shame that Syria can
beat up Lebanon but can not guarantee the safety.. Faranjiya brought the
Syrians around 1976 so they could help him guarantee the safety of the
people and stop the PLO. Now, the year is 1996 and Syria has failed to
remove the PLO and let Israel enter to do their job.... Now, Syria is
doing the same thing not regulating Hezbollah and now Israel is coming
again to do the same thing that Syria is supposed to do, because Lebanon
is powerless to do anything.....
Some people might say you should not regulate Hezbollah. Well
there name means party of God that is a religious term. If they were just
hizb il mukawama that would be another story. Many Shiites from the south
are upset not only with Israel but also with Hezbollah...
I bet you Hafez and Peres are sitting on the phone planning
whatever they want. Like Sir Walter Raleigh once said "the world is a
stage and we are all actors..." Syria and Israel are playing with
Hezbollah. I have never seen Syria fight Israel. I thought they are still
technically in a state of war with Israel. Why are they not on the front
line proving themselves with Hezbollah. At least, we know Hezbollah is
not as hypocritical as Hafez's regime.... They are defending their land...
Syria is trying to be the protectorate of Lebanon and it has failed in
this regard.... If Syria really wants to help Lebanon as they claim then
they should do something.... Either make a peace with your neighbour and
stop bringing Lebanon into your conflict or help them free the south...
Do not just watch...
This post is not to condemn the Syrian population or whatever
because the people are not the government and after all,
10000 Sunnites were killed in Hamah by Hafez and that is sad...
Michel Najem
>: >: Where is Syria now? Where are the guns of Assad the mouse?
>: >
>: >
>: > The Syrian AAA did fire at the Israelis fighters, a Syrian
>: > army base was hit yesterday, one Syrian soldier died and 12
>: > were wounded. Read or hear the news before you hit the send
>: > key.
>: >
>: attacking Israel itself, instead of sitting like lame ducks. Or is your
> asking for the palnes and big guns !! That Syrian soldier who
> died in Lebanon has a family, a mother and father just like the
> rest who died because of this indiscriminate bombing. What
> is at hand now is an agression by the Israelies, you both
> are losing loved ones, you can either join in telling the
> world about this agression, or you can go to the presidential
> palace in Damascus and tell Assad what you think of him.
died he shouldn't be in Lebanon in the first place. His place is with
mother and father. We don't need him. The Lebanese proved that they can
stand up and fight while the Syrian soldiers are hitting the deck.
>: army good only at attacking and butchering innocent civilians in Lebanon
>: and Syria. You should blitz Israel like you did Lebanon.
> when your brothers are getting killed as we speak by the hands
> of the Israelis? The Lebanese (the shi3as) are losing lives, the
> Syrians are losing lives, go pick up your AK-47 and fight with them
> instead of saff el 7aki taba3k :(
We had our share in fighting my friends enough is enough. It is time for
your soldiers as well as the Israelies to go home mashkurin for sure.
We want to live in peace. SO again I tell you we didn't the desicion
to fight Israel someone else took it and you want us to join them?
Azim your President is playing with the souls of the Lebanese. Whenever he
wants something from Israel or vice versa Lebanese people die. Ya khaye
why the front in the Golan Heights is calm? Why south Lebanon is in war?
>: More over, it is the Syrian responsiblity to defend Lebanon and its
>: people, but Assad the mouse has a different agenda.
>: Next time I hit the send key, I will be sending you back to your country.
> do you want to send me , from where ? how ? what the hell are you
> talking about, is this el marjala taba3ak ??
join me? Trust we will have fun.
> look Oscar, your pain is my pain, we are both losing lives, have
> some respect to the dead even if they are Syrians. Believe me
> the mother of that dead soldier will be as sad as the mothers of
> those who died in the south, unfortunatly you have showed no
> remorse for those who died for your land..min kizzb ao sa7ee7..
not be in Lebanon in the first place. All syrian soldiers should go back
to their families it is time.
>: Oscar Zoghbi
> ya 7asrra :(
madaniye wi akid mish ra7 insa hiziballah.
Pierre Abs
> The Syrians didn't lose a soldier because he was taking a sun bath
> in Beirut.
i was reading an interview with one of the top israeli guys (i forget
which one, i read through so much shit the last 2-3 days)(ooops, please
forgive the bad word), and when asked about the syrian and Lebanese
soldier that were killed, he said the Lebanese soldier happened to be
there, but the syrians, they're everywhere. tell me ya azim, if he
wasn't taking a sunbath, what the %$#@! was he doing in Lebanon??
> NO. I am asking you to refrain from making sarcastic comments
> about the Syrians in Lebanon, this is not the time to make
> such comments. The Syrians are in a no-win position when it comes
> to SCL, if they don't do a thing you ask why, if they do you
> ask why not air planes, if they do that someone else will jump
> and say why Syria is fighting its war over Lebanon. ya3ni
> with you guys it is sayem mal3oun..miffter mal3oun
tayyeb 3azeem ya azim. it is not time for sarcasm, but i find it odd
when you say the syrians are in a no-win position. you see they won 90%
of Lebanon. what else do you want?
it's simple, the syrian army occupies Lebanon under the pretext that
Lebanon needs syria's protection, yet syria doesn't budge in a time of
need. it's like hiring a bodyguard who flees at the slightest danger.
ya3ni as the old saying goes, el kalb yalli baddak 'tjorro 3al sayd,
balee wu bala saydeeto. i don't see a purpose for your army to stay, and
anyone (like you ya ja@far) who used to should be convinced that we were
tricked. yes my brothers (and sisters), it was all a big fat lie!
they're not really there for our protection. surprise!
pierre
10453
Pierre Abs
> I understand your frustration and feeling, but you should know that Israel
> objective IS to drag Syria into a war that destroys Syria's strenght at
> the negociation table. No one argues the Israeli military supremacy.
> But Syria's role in helping keeping the internal peace in Lebanon is
> debatable under the issue of how much the lebanese can tryst each other.
please explain to us syria's role in Lebanon, and why they stood and
watched for 5 days now while a militia they are pushing provoked an enemy
to bombard a country they swore to protect...
still waiting...
> The issue now is the WILL of Israel to destroy the peace process and the
> power struggle inside Israel.
> Ja@far
ya 3ayni, israel has the most to gain from a peace process in the long
run.. why would they want to destroy it??
sometimes your logic escapes me.
pierre
Maan M. Hamze
>On 14 Apr 1996, Azim Hamoud wrote:
>> The Syrians didn't lose a soldier because he was taking a sun bath
>> in Beirut.
>i was reading an interview with one of the top israeli guys (i forget
>which one, i read through so much shit the last 2-3 days)(ooops, please
>forgive the bad word), and when asked about the syrian and Lebanese
>soldier that were killed, he said the Lebanese soldier happened to be
>there, but the syrians, they're everywhere. tell me ya azim, if he
>wasn't taking a sunbath, what the %$#@! was he doing in Lebanon??
Maybe whipping your ass, because that is what you need! Excuse my
words ya3nee ya Pierre ya 7abebee inta ya3nee, but your shit is
everywhere maybe you should be somewhere else like ya3nee being the
Jerusalem Post or Yidiot AHronot correspondent, the pay is good, and
you'll have the chance to get a sunbath: that is what's on your mind,
but be careful, too much of it may make your brain mushy mush!
Maan M. Hamze
http://leb.net/~mmhamze
mmh...@mail.utexas.edu
Azim Hamoud
:
: I7teramete for you and for the Syrian army. Bas this Syrian soldier who
: died he shouldn't be in Lebanon in the first place. His place is with
: mother and father. We don't need him. The Lebanese proved that they can
: stand up and fight while the Syrian soldiers are hitting the deck.
To question whether he should have been in Lebanon or not is
not the issue, this is a long and old subject that goes back
20 years. What is at hand now is the daily bombing of Lebanon
which you should be condeming, not why the syrian was there in the
first place.
:
: > you can talk all you want about Assad, what good will that do you
: > when your brothers are getting killed as we speak by the hands
: > of the Israelis? The Lebanese (the shi3as) are losing lives, the
: > Syrians are losing lives, go pick up your AK-47 and fight with them
: > instead of saff el 7aki taba3k :(
:
: Azim we didn't pick up the fight with Israel. It was Heziballah who did.
: We had our share in fighting my friends enough is enough. It is time for
Michel, your statement is very disturbing. For once forget the
us and them issue...what do you mean by WE didn't pick up the
fight, it was Hezbollah ? are you more Lebanese than them ?
You still think of it as us and them. The Israelies are sparing
no one, they hit a power plant in al Mittn, was there Hizbollah
fighters hiding there ? as long as you think of this attack as
an attack on them , not us or you of the whole problem as they
started the problem with Israelies not us..as long as you think
that way nothing will be achieved.
: your soldiers as well as the Israelies to go home mashkurin for sure.
: We want to live in peace. SO again I tell you we didn't the desicion
: to fight Israel someone else took it and you want us to join them?
: Azim your President is playing with the souls of the Lebanese. Whenever he
: wants something from Israel or vice versa Lebanese people die. Ya khaye
: why the front in the Golan Heights is calm? Why south Lebanon is in war?
At this moment I wish if our army is out of there, I
don't think one Syrian loss is worth the constant unappreciative
Lebanese feeling about us. So yes we should leave and let you
guys do what you wish to yourselves.
:
: > I've never been to Lebanon, I don't think I will ever go there, where
: > do you want to send me , from where ? how ? what the hell are you
: > talking about, is this el marjala taba3ak ??
:
: Mni7 khaye Azim you never been there, I am going this summer do you like to
: join me? Trust we will have fun.
NO. you might think of me as an occupying tourist.
Azim
Talal Arslan
sooner or later. Syrian civil war is overdue. Once the foot of your
current dictator is removed from your necks, you will fall into chaos.
Why, because Syrians are barbarians. They live by occupying a
neighbouring country, bombarding its civilian population, and
pillaging its resources.
The Syrian trash will be cleaned soon. Assad frie in hell, those are
the prayers of millions of your victims.
Michel Najem
Azim Hamoud wrote:
>Michel Najem (X4...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU) wrote:
>:
>: I7teramete for you and for the Syrian army. Bas this Syrian soldier who
>: died he shouldn't be in Lebanon in the first place. His place is with
>: mother and father. We don't need him. The Lebanese proved that they can
>: stand up and fight while the Syrian soldiers are hitting the deck.
> To question whether he should have been in Lebanon or not is
> not the issue, this is a long and old subject that goes back
> 20 years. What is at hand now is the daily bombing of Lebanon
> which you should be condeming, not why the syrian was there in the
> first place.
in Lebanon any time I want. I sure denounce the Israelies daily bombing
but I sure refuse that the souls of the Lebanese who live in the South
to be a card in Assad's hand on the table of peace negotiations.
Syria and israel are using my people to get what they want and this is
not acceptable anymore. You want your Golan hieghts back butgo and liberate
it and stop killing Lebanese to get what you want.
>:
>: > you can talk all you want about Assad, what good will that do you
>: > when your brothers are getting killed as we speak by the hands
>: > of the Israelis? The Lebanese (the shi3as) are losing lives, the
>: > Syrians are losing lives, go pick up your AK-47 and fight with them
>: > instead of saff el 7aki taba3k :(
>:
>: Azim we didn't pick up the fight with Israel. It was Heziballah who did.
>: We had our share in fighting my friends enough is enough. It is time for
> Michel, your statement is very disturbing. For once forget the
> us and them issue...what do you mean by WE didn't pick up the
> fight, it was Hezbollah ? are you more Lebanese than them ?
> You still think of it as us and them. The Israelies are sparing
> no one, they hit a power plant in al Mittn, was there Hizbollah
> fighters hiding there ? as long as you think of this attack as
> an attack on them , not us or you of the whole problem as they
> started the problem with Israelies not us..as long as you think
> that way nothing will be achieved.
Those didn't pick up the fight with Israel. Those didn't ask Hiziballah
to fire a katyushya on Northern Israel. I went to the South 2 years ago
and met with some people, they said allah yi3an al muqawame badna n3ish ba'a.
People want to leave, they don't want war anymore.
>: your soldiers as well as the Israelies to go home mashkurin for sure.
>: We want to live in peace. SO again I tell you we didn't the desicion
>: to fight Israel someone else took it and you want us to join them?
>: Azim your President is playing with the souls of the Lebanese. Whenever he
>: wants something from Israel or vice versa Lebanese people die. Ya khaye
>: why the front in the Golan Heights is calm? Why south Lebanon is in war?
> At this moment I wish if our army is out of there, I
> don't think one Syrian loss is worth the constant unappreciative
> Lebanese feeling about us. So yes we should leave and let you
> guys do what you wish to yourselves.
South and see how Lebanese get together. You pull out and leave us alone.
yalla go and demonstrate in Syria for the pull out the Syrian army from
Lebanon. Are you allowed to do that?
>: > I've never been to Lebanon, I don't think I will ever go there, wher e
>: > do you want to send me , from where ? how ? what the hell are you
>: > talking about, is this el marjala taba3ak ??
>:
>: Mni7 khaye Azim you never been there, I am going this summer do you like to
>: join me? Trust we will have fun.
> NO. you might think of me as an occupying tourist.
you are not. Yalla let us go I will give you a tour in South lebanon and I
will show you what throwing some katyushya can do to my country.
Azim again and again I say we (and by we i mean all lebanese) had enough.
We want to live in peace. We don't want to play neither Assad game nor Peres
game. We don't want to be a card in anybody's hand. We want to be free. We
want all Foreign forces out of lebanon. In few months your Assad and our
government will shake hands with Peres and people will forget about those
who died. It is not right that my people die and be forgotten at the end.
My people is paying the price of the South and the Golan heights and you
should be ashamed of that to let other people die for your land. If you
are a man go and tell your president Assad let us fight Israel from our
land, let us die for the Golan. Stop killing my people in the name of peace.
Sadat took Sina without firing a single bullet, why can't we? Why our
children should die while the rest in Syria, egypt and Jordan are alive?
Why we should die for you? We now how to ge back our land, let your
president Assad let go of us, let him give us the freedom to sit and negotiate
peace with Israel alone. Let him go and fight Israel from Syria not
from Lebanon. We want peace got it Azim we want to leave in peace with all
the countries that surround us (Syria and Israel). Rkibto 3ala da7rna
into wil isra'iliye ktir sar lezim tfiko 3an sama 7al sha3eb ba'a.
> Azim
Michel
149316
the first place - in times of need, then out please.
Martin
Maan M. Hamze
>If Syria is not willing to defend Lebanon - the excuse it is there in
>the first place - in times of need, then out please.
Defending should not be equated as: drawing someone into a fight!
Also, the Syrians are not there in the first place as an excuse to
defend anyone. They are there to be a positive participant in the
attempts at reconstructing the country at a time of a non-existing
national consensus on how to do things and the lack of institutions.
The Syrian army and the Lebanese army are being asked now to take
defensive positions and to avoid any wide scale escalation at any
cost. Draw the Israelis in.....they did the mistake before, and they
may do it now! Avoid any conventional confrontations! The Israelis
are behaving exactly from the position of someone who can apply
pressure by the mere use of power military tools. This will take them
nowhere! We have to avoid thinking that the use of the military can
resolve anything. So, why should the Syrians believe so.
Rani Geha
(Maan M. Hamze) wrote:
> Defending should not be equated as: drawing someone into a fight!
Reallyyyyyyy? How insightful!
How can you defend against a military attack without drawing yourself into
a fight?
It's one of those nonsense statements that you may not catch the first
time, but the more you read it the more the nonsense becomes apparent.
Go ahead. Try it.
Rani.
Maan M. Hamze
>In article <4l32lc$5...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, mmh...@mail.utexas.edu
>(Maan M. Hamze) wrote:
>
>> Defending should not be equated as: drawing someone into a fight!
>Reallyyyyyyy? How insightful!
Yes, exactly, how insightful! If you cannot see how insightful it is
then I do feel sorry for you! Wars are not waged by merely throwing
an army in a battle field when an army may be faced by a high-tech
Israeli army. The lesson to be learned from the gulf war is that it
is not enough to have a huge numerical superiority, when your enemy
can defeat you without commiting any troops on the front line (Iraqi
army and Americans respectively). The Hi-Tech element should be taken
into account. Thus, in any conventional confrontation this can be
suicide.
We do not want to be suicidal, do we? We cannot afford to be simply
emotional and commit thousands of Syrian and Lebanese troops into a
battle that will end up being a massacre!
The answer to someone like Israel will have to be found coolly and
quietly in a process of thinking and reflection.
Please note that the Vietnamese NEVER, except for the Tet offensive,
commited themselves into a direct confrontation with the Americans.
Why, they knew that the huge sacrifices in their fight and defeat of
the French at Dien Pien Fou will not work with the Americans due to
changing technical and Tactical considerations.
The question is: What do YOU want from a confrontation? The answer
will be presented as YOUR political positioning concerning this issue!
Ho Chi Minh wanted the Americans out, but did not face them face to
face. He emerged as the winner! It took years of work!
He and his comrades KNEW what they wanted! so, it follows
that.....................
>How can you defend against a military attack without drawing yourself into
>a fight?
..................a fight is not essentially to draw someone into a
wide scale confrontation. Khalid Ibn Al-Walid and Hannibal would not
have achieved anything if they have followed your line of thinking.
Now, the most interesting fights in the history of wars are those
that.......never took place. Meaning: fighting is not simply about
commiting a huge number of troops into the frontline just to make the
point that this is war after all. This is archaic at best!
Notice the examples of..............
>It's one of those nonsense statements that you may not catch the first
>time, but the more you read it the more the nonsense becomes apparent.
.......the Russians drawing in the Germans into Moscow. Or the
Prophets of Guerilla warfare, the Vietnamese and the Cubans, avoiding
any confrontation, because the war as far as they were concerned acted
as an extension of the political vision.
Thus, as I noticed in another posting, that the Egyptians lost a once
in a life chance when in 1973 they allowed the 101 km talks to take
place instead of opening the highway to Cairo in front of the
Israelis! I assure you that had the Egyptians done that, the Israelis
would have surrendered to the Arabs within a couple of years!
But, the political vision is what is clearly lacking in the Arab
World, and now in Lebanon!
We ask again: what is it that YOU want?
A just peace? fine! we all want that! Then give the Israelis all
the security zone that they want and all the buffer areas that they
can get in this present situation. These are all states of the mind!
Never commit to a wide confrontation! Ask them to leave and withdraw
without succumbing to their conditions, and hit them whenever you can
within these zones. Attack and retreat as fast as you can!
If they would not withdraw? fine! let them have it their way. Power
that exists on mere solutions in the military realm ends up
demoralizing itself sooner or later, but by all means:
LET THE BORDERS BURN!
Rani Geha
But Syria IS required to defend Lebanon under the Taef agreement and
the agreement of cooperation it made when it crushed freedom, entered the
country and installed a puppet government in Lebanon (A WORD OF CAUTION:
If you choose to openly disagree with the "puppet government" expression,
you will be throwing away any credibility you have down the drain. If you
don't believe me, just look at what the newspapers say when they mention
Lebanon. It is always followed with a statement saying that it is ruled by
Syria and does not a voice of its own. It is everybody's opinion. It is a
fact. Don't deny it).
The agreement of military cooperation obviously means defending againt
Israel and not Cyprus! Assad knew what it meant when he signed it, and I
was illustrating the point of how he never intended to honor it, but to
simply use it to dominate Lebanon, and plunder its recources.
You are right, Israel is very powerful militarily. And your point would
be a good point to use against PROVOKING Israel into a conflict. But the
situation right now is that Israel is ALREADY in a conflict massacring our
civilians. If it is not the duty of the military to defend against an
attack against its civilians, THEN I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO EXPLAIN TO ME
WHAT IS ITS DUTY.
Of course, it is wise not to spit in the face of a bodybuilder, because
he's gonna beat you up. But is it wise not to fight back when he is
ALREADY beating you up????To just sit there and take it until he's
finished?
You have ended with the statement LET THE BORDERS BURN. I have a
question for you regarding that. You believe that it is wrong of Israel to
kill civilians in the south because they are not the ones shelling Israel,
and I am 100% in agreement with you on that point.
The Big Question: Do you believe it is wrong for Hizballah to kill
civilians in northern Israel because they are not the ones shelling
Lebanon?
(I would appreciate it if you begin your response with a Yes or No, and
don't forget to elaborate on "LET THE BORDERS BURN")
Rani.
Thabet Birro
: But Syria IS required to defend Lebanon under the Taef agreement and
Required or not, fulfilled its role or not, this does not in any way
annul the duty of of the country's own military (weak or not) to do
their job. If you are going to start listing excuses (legitimate
as they maybe), then you will surly find out why your logic is
faulty about the Syrian inetrvention.
Thabet
Rani Geha
Thabet, you have COMPLETELY misunderstood the point I was making. Of
course, the country's own military is required to respond. I you read the
previous thread, I was trying to convince Maan of that same point. He's
the one saying that Syrian and Lebanese troops should do nothing to Israel
because they are too strong. In the sentence that you just cited, I was
trying to show Maan that Syria is not abiding by the deal, which he is
denying.
So, we are on the same side of the issue.
Rani.
Maan M. Hamze
>In article <4l918b$r...@cc.iu.net>, tbi...@bb.iu.net (Thabet Birro) wrote:
>> Rani Geha (ge...@hsc.usc.edu) wrote:
>>
>>
>> : But Syria IS required to defend Lebanon under the Taef agreement and
>>
>> Required or not, fulfilled its role or not, this does not in any way
>> annul the duty of of the country's own military (weak or not) to do
>> their job. If you are going to start listing excuses (legitimate
>> as they maybe), then you will surly find out why your logic is
>> faulty about the Syrian inetrvention.
>>
>> Thabet
>>
>Thabet, you have COMPLETELY misunderstood the point I was making. Of
>course, the country's own military is required to respond. I you read the
>previous thread, I was trying to convince Maan of that same point. He's
>the one saying that Syrian and Lebanese troops should do nothing to Israel
>because they are too strong.
What??? how did you get this? go back to my post and see what I am
saying! I said that numerical superiority is not enough. Have you
read my words? do I have to repeat my posting? Do I have to type
everything a million times!
>In the sentence that you just cited, I was
>trying to show Maan that Syria is not abiding by the deal, which he is
>denying.
Before I answer you later! did I say that war is an extension of
politics? yes I did! So, what are you talking about! You seem to
be defining a war in a very archaic way.
Why should the Lebanese and Syrian armies participate in a war that is
an extension of an Israeli political game? Is not that the same as
succumbing into a political game that is imposed by the Israelis? A
war that is not dictated by you in its terms of politics?
Would we accept the Syrian and Lebanese armies to enter a war in a
wide scale escalation that may not be to their liking - that may be
suicidal! is not it true? The answer is that we should not call for
the Syrians and Lebanese to widen the scale along *conventional terms*
Right? right! Have you read my words? why should I repeat this?
Did I say that fighting Israel must follow along different lines, and
I explained what these lines are? Yes, I did! so why do not you read
my lines!
So, to you the point is that not abiding by the treaty makes the
treaty null! The main event now! The main point! Who told you that
the Syrians are not fighting the war?
I said in my past posting that the most interesting fights are the
fights that never happen? Why do not you reflect on this one here?
Also, to whose advantage is the widening of the scope of hostilities
at this time? You answer this one!
Now, Peres wants a way out! He knows he had failed! The Israelis
want to save face!
Meanwhile, operations against the Israelis will continue til a full
unconditional withdrawal from the South!
BILLY
On Sat, 20 Apr 1996, Maan M. Hamze wrote:
> ge...@hsc.usc.edu (Rani Geha) wrote:
>
> >In article <4l918b$r...@cc.iu.net>, tbi...@bb.iu.net (Thabet Birro) wrote:
>
> >> Rani Geha (ge...@hsc.usc.edu) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> : But Syria IS required to defend Lebanon under the Taef agreement and
> >>
> >> Required or not, fulfilled its role or not, this does not in any way
> >> annul the duty of of the country's own military (weak or not) to do
> >> their job. If you are going to start listing excuses (legitimate
> >> as they maybe), then you will surly find out why your logic is
> >> faulty about the Syrian inetrvention.
> >>
> >> Thabet
> >>
>
>
Laik Maan I have to polemicize here....You should know better
then to say what you did. I expect more from you after all the books you
read. Habibi this is not simply an extension of Israel's ideological
motives. If you think so, then think again. You are giving Hafez Assad
the slip. He is most probably involved in this indirectly.. Why? Habibi
look if Perez does not get elected, Netanyahu will become president from
the Likud party and he does not want to give Golan. Let me give you a
parallel... When King Hussein of Jordan signed their deal with Rabin he
was already talking to Rabin secretly for months. What makes you think
Hafez is not using the same tactic.... I was expecting this conflict to
take place and many of you seem surprised by it all.... I was saying to a
Syrian friend Israel is going to go after hisiballah soon... That was
about a month ago.... Now, they are there.... Damascus and Tel Aviv are
planning this whole thing and the Truce and soon to be signed agreements
are the motives...
And Thabet Syria by the Taef agreement that it had Lebanon sign
was committed to protect the sovereignty of Lebanon. If they are not
there to protect Lebanon, then they are obviously there for the explicit
reason to dominate them politically and militarily... Hariri can give the
orders to send the army, but he will just join Rene Muawad for going
against Damascus... No one can go against Damascus in Lebanon at this moment.
After all, this is not Switzerland where the European countries let her
disagree with the EU and respectfully allow disagreement.... I am not
saying this is the fault of the whole Syrian populace, but what is the
role of the 35,000 soldiers... I am not saying I want them or the
Lebanese army to fight, because it is not part of the game conceived in
Tel Aviv and Damascus....
----------------------------------------------------------Basil
100-200 Lebanese civilians dead in Lebanon
and 10s of Israeli civilians
civilians always pay the price.....
Alain Chammas
(KAROUNI A) wrote:
> But Syria's role in helping keeping the internal peace in Lebanon is
> debatable under the issue of how much the lebanese can tryst each other.
Ya Ja@far,
Since Syria had a role in fueling the internal divisions to begin with, no
credit can be given to it for stopping what they helped ignite, threy
shouldn't have meddled in our internal affairs to begin with.
Further, and as you know from several civilized e-maIl exchanges that we
have had, if you would spread the word around you that there are other
lebanese out there willing to build a nation with you, instead of
supporting the designs of foreign entities and agendas, and if I would do
the same, we could eventually build the trust that is lacking today and
hopefully soon build a nation together. All we have to do is start in
earnest, with our strongest convictions, and nobody, not Syria, not
Israel, not Iran, not France nor the US
should be able to derail us.
Illi, aymat men ballesh?
> Ja@far
--
Alain Chammas
Alain Chammas
(Maan M. Hamze) wrote:
> .......the Russians drawing in the Germans into Moscow....
During WWII, the Soviet Union lost about 15% of it's population, partly
due to german attacks, partly due to repression (silencing the voices of
opposition and minorities). Scaled to our own country, that would
translate to more than 500,000 dead. Are you really committed to have
500,000 lebanese civilians dead just to prove your point?
> Maan M. Hamze
> http://leb.net/~mmhamze
> mmh...@mail.utexas.edu
--
Alain Chammas
Rani Geha
(Maan M. Hamze) wrote:
> Before I answer you later! did I say that war is an extension of
> politics? yes I did! So, what are you talking about! You seem to
> be defining a war in a very archaic way.
shu hallak, you are going to redefine the word "War" so you can say that
Syria is now fighting Israel? Johnny Cochrane ma emela.
Here's the situation:
FACT 1: Syria is required to defend Lebanon militarily in case of an attack.
PERSONNAL OPINION: Syria never intends to abide by the agreement, but to
just use it to stay in Lebanon.
FACT 2: Israel attacks Lebanon.
FACT 3: Syria does defend Lebanon.
RESULT : PERSONNAL OPINION is now upgraded into a FACT.
> Why should the Lebanese and Syrian armies participate in a war that is
> an extension of an Israeli political game? Is not that the same as
> succumbing into a political game that is imposed by the Israelis? A
> war that is not dictated by you in its terms of politics?
It is the DUTY of the military to defend the population, PERIOD.
> So, to you the point is that not abiding by the treaty makes the
> treaty null! The main event now! The main point! Who told you that
> the Syrians are not fighting the war?
THE NEWS.
> I said in my past posting that the most interesting fights are the
> fights that never happen? Why do not you reflect on this one here?
Really? Is the bombardment of the civilians of the South happening or not
happening?
Maan, you have lost the argument, why don't you just admit it.
Syria did break the agreement, and there is nothing you can do to defend
that. I suggest you move on to a more deffensible Syrian violation.
Rani.
Maan M. Hamze
>In article <4la6ms$9...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, mmh...@mail.utexas.edu
>(Maan M. Hamze) wrote:
>
>> Before I answer you later! did I say that war is an extension of
>> politics? yes I did! So, what are you talking about! You seem to
>> be defining a war in a very archaic way.
>shu hallak, you are going to redefine the word "War" so you can say that
>Syria is now fighting Israel? Johnny Cochrane ma emela.
Then you are advised to brush up on your history. The Israeli war is
an extension of a political effort. To participate in it right now in
the logic of a confrontation is to fall into the Israeli scheme of
operasting things. Think man! You are not thinking!
>Here's the situation:
>FACT 1: Syria is required to defend Lebanon militarily in case of an attack.
The war against Israel has proven to be a failure if viewed in these
terms. Also, you are worse than the Israelis when you parrot these
things. The situation does not allow for such a thing, and the
Syrians and the Lebanese know that! Quit behaving like a bully with a
one track mind!
>PERSONNAL OPINION: Syria never intends to abide by the agreement, but to
>just use it to stay in Lebanon.
>FACT 2: Israel attacks Lebanon.
>FACT 3: Syria does defend Lebanon.
>RESULT : PERSONNAL OPINION is now upgraded into a FACT.
Your logic has enough holes in it to suck into it a whole galaxy.
>> Why should the Lebanese and Syrian armies participate in a war that is
>> an extension of an Israeli political game? Is not that the same as
>> succumbing into a political game that is imposed by the Israelis? A
>> war that is not dictated by you in its terms of politics?
>It is the DUTY of the military to defend the population, PERIOD.
Not essentially! I can give you enough examples to the contrary! To
show you that the greatest battles have taken place by avoiding what
you are talking about. Want to guess? no I would not mention Russia
and Vietanm and Cuba! Just ask and I can go on to show that your idea
of a war is a reactionary archaic idea.
>> I said in my past posting that the most interesting fights are the
>> fights that never happen? Why do not you reflect on this one here?
>Really? Is the bombardment of the civilians of the South happening or not
>happening?
The resistance have done an excellent work at facing the Israelis, and
any participation from the Syrians and the Lebanese army will make the
situation only worse without acheiving anything but defeat to both
armies.
>Maan, you have lost the argument, why don't you just admit it.
>Syria did break the agreement, and there is nothing you can do to defend
>that. I suggest you move on to a more deffensible Syrian violation.
You have actually chosen a defeatist political side. In addition you
do not have any vision that the situation demands.....I thought you
were against the Syrian presense in Lebanon, so how come you are
calling at the Syrians to participate. No one is asking them to
participate, and the true participation should arise through the ranks
of a Lebanese Resistance Movement.
In addition, you insist on a suicidal confrontation that can actually
turn the tables to the Israeli advantage through your archaic thinking
of what a war is about! And certainly you have not gone beyond your
talk of what a military should and should not do: suicidal action is
not one of the responsibilities of any military force in the world!
Also, you talk about it as though the resistance in the South is not
enough at a time when this resistance is showing its effectiveness!
Actually, you are a defeatist who likes to hide behind armies and go
for bullying tactics that go nowhere!
I certainly care more about the Syrian people and the Lebanese people
when I insist that their armies stay on the sides.
Finally, the war is already there and the resistance is already there:
beyond issues of your armies........All power to the Lebanese
Resistance til the complete and unconditional withdrawal of the
Israleis from the South!
Rani Geha
(Maan M. Hamze) wrote:
> The war against Israel has proven to be a failure if viewed in these
> terms. Also, you are worse than the Israelis when you parrot these
> things. The situation does not allow for such a thing, and the
> Syrians and the Lebanese know that! Quit behaving like a bully with a
> one track mind!
You like to label me as a bully with a one track mind, but what I am
actually doing is desperately trying not to allow you to divert from the
issue, take a look at your title. I think this is the only way your
arguments can be destroyed, by focusing one point and one point only. My
SOLE purpose for my postings in this thread, is to make you admit that
Assad is not abiding by the Taef aggreement. An agreement that I suspected
he never intended to abide by and that you are trying to defend by
resorting to all sorts of outlandish tactics. You even went as far as
redefining the word "War", and started claiming that Syria is actually at
war with Israel. Come on, lets keep it clean.
> You have actually chosen a defeatist political side. In addition you
> do not have any vision that the situation demands.....I thought you
> were against the Syrian presense in Lebanon, so how come you are
> calling at the Syrians to participate. No one is asking them to
> participate, and the true participation should arise through the ranks
> of a Lebanese Resistance Movement.
I am not calling at the Syrians to participate, I know they are never
going to participate. After all they are not their to defend the country
but to rob it. What I am doing is pointing out their violation of Taef,
where they did promised to partcipate.
Come on, admit it. THEY DID VIOLATE TAEF. And let's move on.
Rani.
cas...@sonetis.com
>ge...@hsc.usc.edu (Rani Geha) wrote:
>>In article <4l918b$r...@cc.iu.net>, tbi...@bb.iu.net (Thabet Birro) wrote:
>>> Rani Geha (ge...@hsc.usc.edu) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> : But Syria IS required to defend Lebanon under the Taef agreement and
>>>
>>> Required or not, fulfilled its role or not, this does not in any way
>>> annul the duty of of the country's own military (weak or not) to do
>>> their job. If you are going to start listing excuses (legitimate
>>> as they maybe), then you will surly find out why your logic is
>>> faulty about the Syrian inetrvention.
>>>
>>> Thabet
>>>
>>Thabet, you have COMPLETELY misunderstood the point I was making. Of
>>course, the country's own military is required to respond. I you read the
>>previous thread, I was trying to convince Maan of that same point. He's
>>the one saying that Syrian and Lebanese troops should do nothing to Israel
>>because they are too strong.
>What??? how did you get this? go back to my post and see what I am
>saying! I said that numerical superiority is not enough. Have you
>read my words? do I have to repeat my posting? Do I have to type
>everything a million times!
>>In the sentence that you just cited, I was
>>trying to show Maan that Syria is not abiding by the deal, which he is
>>denying.
>Before I answer you later! did I say that war is an extension of
>politics? yes I did! So, what are you talking about! You seem to
>be defining a war in a very archaic way.
>Why should the Lebanese and Syrian armies participate in a war that is
>an extension of an Israeli political game? Is not that the same as
>succumbing into a political game that is imposed by the Israelis? A
>war that is not dictated by you in its terms of politics?
>Would we accept the Syrian and Lebanese armies to enter a war in a
>wide scale escalation that may not be to their liking - that may be
>suicidal! is not it true? The answer is that we should not call for
>the Syrians and Lebanese to widen the scale along *conventional terms*
>Right? right! Have you read my words? why should I repeat this?
>Did I say that fighting Israel must follow along different lines, and
>I explained what these lines are? Yes, I did! so why do not you read
>my lines!
>So, to you the point is that not abiding by the treaty makes the
>treaty null! The main event now! The main point! Who told you that
>the Syrians are not fighting the war?
>I said in my past posting that the most interesting fights are the
>fights that never happen? Why do not you reflect on this one here?
>Also, to whose advantage is the widening of the scope of hostilities
>at this time? You answer this one!
>Now, Peres wants a way out! He knows he had failed! The Israelis
>want to save face!
>Meanwhile, operations against the Israelis will continue til a full
>unconditional withdrawal from the South!
>Maan M. Hamze
>http://leb.net/~mmhamze
>mmh...@mail.utexas.edu
All your analyses is right. Syria and Lebanon have been sharing the
same trench since the demise of Bashir Jemayyel. The political war is
the "Real" one and, both parties are fighting well. The Israelis on
the other hand cannot win a political war. They've been bankrupt
politically for a long time. So, they resort to the military might
they posess to exert political pressure. Sad reality!
Additionally, the only time Syria and Lebanon will respond militarily
is if and when IRAN moves against ISRAEL militarily under the
justification of "protecting the Shiites of Southern Lebanon". Morally
this is acceptable, politically it is not.
This is why Syria and Lebanon are reluctant to engage Israel
militarily. It would be suicide at this time. I applaude both
government's stance and self restrained rationalism. Anti-Israel
emotions will not disappear but will be cashed-in one day. Consider
these emotions as an investment in the future, compliments of the
Israeli military and its horrific deeds.
In my hometown we have a saying: "Ya Thalem Elak Yome". I believe so..
Christopher Assad.
Nizar Dahbar
On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, Maan M. Hamze wrote:
mmhamze>>Yes, exactly, how insightful! If you cannot see how insightful it is
mmhamze>>then I do feel sorry for you! Wars are not waged by merely throwing
mmhamze>>an army in a battle field when an army may be faced by a high-tech
mmhamze>>Israeli army. The lesson to be learned from the gulf war is that it
mmhamze>>is not enough to have a huge numerical superiority, when your enemy
mmhamze>>can defeat you without commiting any troops on the front line (Iraqi
mmhamze>>army and Americans respectively). The Hi-Tech element should be taken
mmhamze>>into account. Thus, in any conventional confrontation this can be
mmhamze>>suicide.
mmhamze>>We do not want to be suicidal, do we? We cannot afford to be simply
mmhamze>>emotional and commit thousands of Syrian and Lebanese troops into a
mmhamze>>battle that will end up being a massacre!
mmhamze>>The answer to someone like Israel will have to be found coolly and
mmhamze>>quietly in a process of thinking and reflection.
mmhamze>>Please note that the Vietnamese NEVER, except for the Tet offensive,
mmhamze>>commited themselves into a direct confrontation with the Americans.
mmhamze>>Why, they knew that the huge sacrifices in their fight and defeat of
mmhamze>>the French at Dien Pien Fou will not work with the Americans due to
mmhamze>>changing technical and Tactical considerations.
mmhamze>>The question is: What do YOU want from a confrontation? The answer
mmhamze>>will be presented as YOUR political positioning concerning this issue!
mmhamze>>Ho Chi Minh wanted the Americans out, but did not face them face to
mmhamze>>face. He emerged as the winner! It took years of work!
mmhamze>>He and his comrades KNEW what they wanted! so, it follows
mmhamze>>that.....................
Maan, you simply can't compare the Vietnam War with the Gulf War
and this Lebanese/Israeli conflict now. You see, it wasn't the about
numbers and weaponry during Vietnam; To say the Americans underestimated
the mentality of the V.C. and their will to hold on to what they wanted to
have is like saying you dipped your finger into molten lead,
underestimating the heat. So many of the American army's plans and
tactics failed in the end because they had no idea how the V.C.
functioned, mentally and spiritually. Yes, close to 1 million of them
died, but that isn't surprising when you find out how the battles were
fought. The V.C. were committed to their cause, and their guerilla
tactics were only a fractional piece of evidence of what they had in mind.
They annhilated the Americans in the "mind game" during that war, which
led to them winning the war and having all too many US officials knealing
down in shame.
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