***PROPOSED POLICY FOR SOC.CULTURE.LEBANON
richard joseph
I have participated in this newsgroup for about five years now. May I
propose the following policies for free speech and expression:
1. No one --not the Lebanese, Syrian, or Israeli Governments, the
Palestinian Authority, political parties, religious organizations, or their
agents-- should dominate discussion in this newsgroup.
2. No one --not the Lebanese, Syrian, or Israeli Governments, the
Palestinian Authority, political parties, religious organizations, or their
agents-- should, through mass postings or spamming, define the "agenda" for
this newsgroup.
3. Divergent views --whether pro-Lebanese, pro-Syrian, pro-Israeli,
pro-Palestinian --whether Kataebi, Shuyu'eyi, Ishtirakiyi,
Hezballah, --whether Maronite, Sunni, Shi'a, Druse, Orthodox-- should be
tolerated.
4. Personal attacks, profanity, insults, disrespectful conduct,
misinformation, government and party propaganda, and political manipulation
should NOT be tolerated.
This newsgroup should be as FREE as the Lebanese aspire to be. I hope that
others will join with me in reaching a consensus.
Richard
BM
I support your call.
One of the sources of problems is crossposts. Fortunately, I have a way to
filter out crossposts. I find that after I filter crossposts and selectively
filter volume posters, what's left is manageable to skim through to
pick interesting reads.
bassem
In article <9j81ub$m5l$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
ME
"richard joseph" <rjo...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:9j81ub$m5l$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
ME
block those out daily, I must say I am down from 70, to 25, after filtering
Hobeika's Spamming.
"BM" <m-e-d-...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9j8g99$f2s$1...@news.panix.com...
BM
In article <GxX57.755$Px1....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
ME <m...@gq.com> wrote:
>how many posts are you getting daily, I get about 25, half are Israelis, I
>block those out daily, I must say I am down from 70, to 25, after filtering
>Hobeika's Spamming.
About right.
bassem
WESTBEIRUT555
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I enjoy reading mesages and posting to SCL
and have done that for several years, albeit, under different names. The
aliases are necessary with the prevailing climate in our country and on SCL.
Even the author of the lovely cooking recipes has found it more prudent to post
anonymously.
Our countrymen have not reached a level of political maturity that allows us to
speak up our minds freely. Please notice that the majority of those involved
with SCL are from North America or Europe. Very seldom do you find someone
posting from Lebanon.
I believe that filtering out those we differ with is not a healthy attitude. We
are all entitled to our opinions and should be able to express them freely,
without having our mothers insulted for doing so.
On a personal note, I enjoy your well-thought postings. They reflect your
opinions and are never the run-of-the mill cut and paste.
richard joseph
WESTBEIRUT555 <westbe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010720201850...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> Our countrymen have not reached a level of political maturity that allows
us to
> speak up our minds freely. Please notice that the majority of those
involved
> with SCL are from North America or Europe. Very seldom do you find
someone
> posting from Lebanon.
WESTBEIRUT,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Its ashamed that the political
climate in Lebanon seems to discourage free speech and expression.
My philosophy is based on a combination of realism and idealism:
* Prevent others from speaking, and they will go underground.
* Forbid the expression of political views, and you will be ignorant
as to how to deal with those who espouse them.
* Personally attack someone who speaks freely, and he/she will no
longer contribute to your understanding.
* Encourage free speech and debate, and however emotionally
unsettling, you will have intellectual progress.
* Force people to tote the party line, and you will create a nation
of sheep.
Richard
Jason Nasr
"richard joseph" <rjo...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:9j81ub$m5l$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
>
>
I congratulate you for attempting to turn the slinging matches that SCL is,
into something useful and worthwhile.
Unfortunately, that is not going to happen.
You appear to see the political newsgroups as a forum for civility and
reasoned argument. They are not. They are a killing ground, where
intelligence and fairness are conspicuous in their absence.
In my opinion some correspondents here "need" to be addressed with street
language, and some "need" to be told that they are profoundly biased and
stupid.
Why should anyone who comes here anonymously feel that he has to observe any
rules of fair play? If people refuse to stand behind their opinions, and
prefer to be anonymous poison-pen letter writers - as most do here - why do
you think that can be expected to behave fairly and decently?
If I come here as "haven't-been-wrong-since-1977", what do I have to lose by
stating any damned partisan foolishness that
comes into my head?
Almost "everything" that finds its way into SCL is immediately trivialized.
Try spending half an hour providing statistical evidence that Harriri is
wrong on some issue, and see whether any of your facts will be acknowledged.
Most regular posters come here with an enormous sense of rectitude. They
are right, and they want the world to know it!
Most of them are incapable of differentiating between their convictions and
the truth. They believe that if they have given
careful thought to a matter, they "cannot" have reached the wrong
conclusions.
Most of them are amazed and insulted, when you tell them that they cannot
know when their opinions are wrong - although that is true of every one of
us. Perspective is everything!
If you want objective discussion of substantive issues, I suggest that look
elsewhere for it. This is axe-grinding territory.
--Jason
Jason Nasr
>
> WESTBEIRUT555 <westbe...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010720201850...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
>
> > Our countrymen have not reached a level of political maturity that
allows
> us to
> > speak up our minds freely. Please notice that the majority of those
> involved
> > with SCL are from North America or Europe. Very seldom do you find
> someone
> > posting from Lebanon.
>
>
> WESTBEIRUT,
>
> Thank you for your thoughtful comments. Its ashamed that the political
> climate in Lebanon seems to discourage free speech and expression.
>
> My philosophy is based on a combination of realism and idealism:
>
> * Prevent others from speaking, and they will go underground.
>
It is easy to turn one's back, and say that the price of free speech is not
too high when it comes in the form of someone else's pain.
If I fail to identify with other groups in society, I may well be prepared
to tolerate all sorts of behavior that victimizes them. And I pave the way
for someone making my group the next target.
I repeat, it is easy to call for tolerance of those who mistreat particular
groups, so long as someone else is their victim.
--Jason
> Richard
>
Jason Nasr
>
> I agree with you wholeheartedly. I enjoy reading mesages and posting to
SCL
> and have done that for several years, albeit, under different names. The
> aliases are necessary with the prevailing climate in our country and on
SCL.
> Even the author of the lovely cooking recipes has found it more prudent to
post
> anonymously.
>
> Our countrymen have not reached a level of political maturity that allows
us to
> speak up our minds freely. Please notice that the majority of those
involved
> with SCL are from North America or Europe. Very seldom do you find
someone
> posting from Lebanon.
>
topic that he knows something about.
One can read the newsgroups for days without encountering this sort of
competence. Congratulations.
--Jason
BM
In article <Z6667.14341$Uu3.1...@typhoon.kc.rr.com>,
Jason Nasr <Jason...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>If you want objective discussion of substantive issues, I suggest that look
>elsewhere for it. This is axe-grinding territory.
Respectfully, I disagree.
If one comes to SCL to axe-grind then axe-grinding is all you will get.
I suggest coming forward with a more positive attitude:
a) there are probably many more lurkers on SCL than contributors (the silent
majority). This is the audience that you are most likely to be able to
reach even if you don't get any feedback.
b) Everybody has some valid point of view. There is no right and wrong in
the absolute.
c) Some people express their points of view better than others.
d) After ignoring the petty and the trivial, whatever is left is generally
readable.
c) SCL to some extent reflects Lebanon, not necessarily from a demographics
point of view but from the point of view of diversity of opinion.
e) if we are unable to find come ground on SCL then what chance do we have
finding comon ground in Lebanon?
f) Therefore we need to learn to tolerate and more importantly appreciate
diversity of opinion. In diversity is our strength.
bassem
>--Jason
BM
In article <20010720201850...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
WESTBEIRUT555 <westbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>I agree with you wholeheartedly. I enjoy reading mesages and posting to SCL
>and have done that for several years, albeit, under different names. The
>aliases are necessary with the prevailing climate in our country and on SCL.
I have never used an alias on SCL.. I don't see why I need to start using
one. There is a valid argument for using an alias when posting on
sensitive topics. Though the argument is weak because all sensitive topics
are being discussed in Lebanon and I doubt any one of us is so important
for the ISF or mokhabarat to go after.
>Even the author of the lovely cooking recipes has found it more prudent to post
>anonymously.
Unecessarily.. unless they are copyrighted and are being dessiminated
without respect of copyright.
>Our countrymen have not reached a level of political maturity that allows us to
>speak up our minds freely.
All our countrymen? Yourself included? I am Lebanese, I humbly qualify as a
counter example to your rule.
>Please notice that the majority of those involved
>with SCL are from North America or Europe. Very seldom do you find someone
>posting from Lebanon.
More reason why anonymity is unwarranted.
>I believe that filtering out those we differ with is not a healthy attitude.
When you go to a public library, do you read all the books in the library?
When you browse a magazine shelf, do you buy all the magazines on the
shelf? We live in a world of limited means and resources. We have to
scale our desires to our means. Filtering is one way to achieve a balance
beteween conflicting desires and means.
>We
>are all entitled to our opinions and should be able to express them freely,
>without having our mothers insulted for doing so.
Agreed.
>On a personal note, I enjoy your well-thought postings. They reflect your
>opinions and are never the run-of-the mill cut and paste.
Agreed.
bassem
richard joseph
Jason Nasr <Jason...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Wc667.14344$Uu3.1...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
> I repeat, it is easy to call for tolerance of those who mistreat
particular
> groups, so long as someone else is their victim.
Jason,
I am not calling for tolerance of mistreatment, victimization, abuse,
insults, rudeness, misconduct, or injustice. I am calling for tolerance of
divergent views expressed intelligently, honestly, civilly, and
respectfully. In my discourse with you, you have expressed your views in
the latter manner. So you have everything to gain from such a policy.
Richard
WESTBEIRUT555
>>>>>>>
I beg to differ! We all have relatives and ties back home and as you well
know, arbitrary arrests and revenge have not exactly disappeared because the
minister of justice ordered so.
>I believe that filtering out those we differ with is not a healthy attitude.
When you go to a public library, do you read all the books in the library?
When you browse a magazine shelf, do you buy all the magazines on the
shelf? We live in a world of limited means and resources. We have to
scale our desires to our means. Filtering is one way to achieve a balance
beteween conflicting desires and means.
>>>>>>>
Filtering is like hiding the books from you and you are only left with what
remains on the shelves. How can you read a book if it is hidden?
BM
In article <20010721142947...@ng-mv1.aol.com>,
WESTBEIRUT555 <westbe...@aol.com> wrote:
>I beg to differ! We all have relatives and ties back home and as you well
>know, arbitrary arrests and revenge have not exactly disappeared because the
>minister of justice ordered so.
I have relatives too.. it does not stop me.. we're small fish.
>Filtering is like hiding the books from you and you are only left with what
>remains on the shelves. How can you read a book if it is hidden?
When you ignore the books that you don't want to read, they are not hidden.
They are still on the shelves. You can read them anytime you wish.
bassem
Fuad Abiad
* It is has got to do with the fact that a person using his/her own real name
can be vilified by an anonymous idiot and that such vilification is forever
archived on deja.com.
You start on SCL as a young student (confident and using your own name),then
end-up in a responsible position that is totally unrelated to Lebanese politics.
Anonymous idiots could destroy your career.
* Also, one thing you gain from participating on SCL is the ability to
refine your beliefs through heated arguments with generaly smart people. This
also means that you are bound to make mistakes and that you might enter SCL
with very naive ideals. These mistakes could cost you your future career in say
politics. But they could stick with you forever. So for example during the Qana
events many of us were very angry and said things that could basicaly exclude us
from holding a political office in the US.
I think that a person would be mad participating on SCl using his or her real
name. You never know if your future employer will search on deja.com;
Many old timers on SCL have left because of harassment by anonymous morons
with psychiatric problems.
ya3ni the best advice that I have for the shabab of SCl
is DON'T USE YOUR OWN NAME if you plan a career in the US
outside of ME advocacy.
If we want inteligent young people to participate on SCL, then we must make sure
that they do so anonymousely so that in the future they can move from SCL to
advocacy roles in the real world with the ideas developed on SCL and not with
the bagage accumilated forming these ideas on SCL.
In article <9jdnn3$42t$1...@news.panix.com>, m-e-d-...@panix.com says...>>>In
article <20010721142947...@ng-mv1.aol.com>,
joseph hobeika
or scrupulous understanding of events. You all say the same things and regurgitate
endless parodies ; without ever researching what you say or "claim "to know.
I have news for you ALL ; you know nothing at all ; & realities on the ground
and during the war are so different from the daily rhetoric which is spewed
here on scl ; that it makes you wonder about the intellectual honesty of each
and every one of you .
Only cowards & faces in the crowd hide behind aliases & that's a fact , pure & simple .
The only People who have shown decency & clear thinking & conviction in their
beliefs are the following :
All the supporters of the I. Lebanese Resistance of south Lebanon come first &
foremost .... even if we disagree with the Political agenda of Hizbullah.
Then:
Richard joseph ; Joseph Mouhanna , Pentium , Ghassan Haddad , R.Stephan ,
Nahla Osseiran , rani , Xeno , Walid & Rod .
& this is evident after following this NG for several years .
Bassem has a tendency to argue for the sake of argument &
wobbles all over the place , but basically ; he is a good person.
The skunks of the LF of ga'ga' the thug & criminal & the blind followers of
the goumayell family of liars & cronies are the worst creeps this world has ever
known; their names or aliases are not even worth mentioning at all .
BM
In article <9jdqs...@drn.newsguy.com>,
Fuad Abiad <fua...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The basic problem is not with the mukhabarat back home. That's just bullshit.
That's indeed a problem.. May way around it is to remove the association
between my first name and last name in my usenet header. Check the
header of my message. It is camouflaged from the Deja drones but any
intelligent human being can figure it out.
It used to be people where afraid from the CIA and FBI as well. Now they
are afraid from Deja. Those who want to be afraid or have reason to be
afraid will always find a ghoul to scare them.
>* It is has got to do with the fact that a person using his/her own real name
>can be vilified by an anonymous idiot and that such vilification is forever
>archived on deja.com.
Right, but there can be more than one Fuad Abiad in the world.. there is no
identity test known to exist that says that the person being vilified is really
you.
>You start on SCL as a young student (confident and using your own name),then
>end-up in a responsible position that is totally unrelated to Lebanese politics.
>Anonymous idiots could destroy your career.
Not really.. most employers tend to be business suites who think that the
internet and the web are the same thing, they are clueless about usenet and
can not be relied upon to decode a usenet message header to save their
lives.
Also Deja archives starts from 1995 so your pre-1995 secrets are safe :-)
I am also counting on Deja to go out of business soon. :-)
>* Also, one thing you gain from participating on SCL is the ability to
>refine your beliefs through heated arguments with generaly smart people. This
>also means that you are bound to make mistakes and that you might enter SCL
>with very naive ideals. These mistakes could cost you your future career in say
>politics. But they could stick with you forever. So for example during the Qana
>events many of us were very angry and said things that could basicaly exclude us
>from holding a political office in the US.
That's a good point. I counter that one should participate with balance,
say what one believes in, take reasonable precautions, and everything else
is defensible.
Now.. if you are really looking to become a prominent politician then your
whole life will be under scrutiny and not just your Deja usenet archived
messaged. Ask Condit.
>I think that a person would be mad participating on SCl using his or her real
>name. You never know if your future employer will search on deja.com;
See above. It is not an all or nothing proposition.
You can make the header of the message anonymous but the body containing
information about your real identity.
>Many old timers on SCL have left because of harassment by anonymous morons
>with psychiatric problems.
True. Reality though is that they leave because their priorities change.
>ya3ni the best advice that I have for the shabab of SCl
>is DON'T USE YOUR OWN NAME if you plan a career in the US
>outside of ME advocacy.
From all the aforementioned, that's an extreme position..
>If we want inteligent young people to participate on SCL, then we must make sure
>that they do so anonymousely so that in the future they can move from SCL to
>advocacy roles in the real world with the ideas developed on SCL and not with
>the bagage accumilated forming these ideas on SCL.
My advice to intelligent young people to participate on SCL is to be true
to yourself. Use moderate language. Address the SCL community like you
would address your own mother. You are entitled to your own views, all
your views. If people harasses you, ignore them. Keep your head above
the water and don't sink into meaningless diatribes.
If you do want to engage in senseless diatribes then please take your
usenet message to another newsgroup.
Thanks for your input.
bassem
ME
my ISF relative told me, If you have no strong Backing, you are dead.
There is joke about this:
At AUB Students were protesting high Fees, the ISF started arresting
Students.
ISF: inta ma3 miin...
Student: ana Amal,
ISF: trakou
ISF: inta ma3 miin...
Student: ana Hizbullah
ISF: trakou
ISF: inta ma3 miin...
Student: ana Ishtiraki Amal,
ISF: trakou
ISF: inta ma3 miin...
Student: ana ma bit3ata siyassi
ISF: kmichou tal3ou 3al Camion
"BM" <m-e-d-...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9jdnn3$42t$1...@news.panix.com...
BM
In article <4fD67.5158$Px1.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
ME <m...@gq.com> wrote:
>Bassem can you guarrantee that my Name will be safe from Moukhabarat? Like
>my ISF relative told me, If you have no strong Backing, you are dead.
How can you be sure that your file is not already with Mokhabarat? :-)
bassem
ME
The point is, friends of mine have been tortured in the Defense Ministry and
warned to stay off political activities.
BM
In article <f%E67.5423$Px1.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
ME <m...@gq.com> wrote:
>The point is, friends of mine have been tortured in the Defense Ministry and
>warned to stay off political activities.
Point well taken however it has little to do with anonymity on SCL.
Were they SCL contributors? Was their contribution to SCL the reason for
their arrest and torture?
One thing is to be voicing your opinion on a public platform. Another
is to actively engage in political activism. If you let the government
illegal actions push you into hiding on SCL then you are letting the
government run your life. The government (Syria) wins, plain and simple.
bassem
ME
Well until we have a free speech in Lebanon, I will not take any chances.
Lets not forget that we live in a Country where 200,000 lost their lives due
to Unnatural events.
Jason Nasr
dealing with here.
You present them with a fact, and expect an acknowledgment from them.
What you need to appreciate is that they have no interest in facts.
Once they take a position, no matter how preposterous - such as stating that
Dr. Geagea was associated with the church bombing in Jouneih - they will
stick to it stubbornly for as long as you are willing to carry on the
discussion.
When you present them with irrefutable facts, they ignore them, and
typically don't take the trouble to edit them, but simply send them back to
you with an insult or an inanity tacked on.
If they have discovered that your politics differ from their own, they will
point out to their fellow lame-brains here that your position is typical
foolishness from "everyone" on your part of the political spectrum. (This
happens whether you are discussing basketball, volcanoes, submarines, or
anything else. They see a political motive behind all of your opinions.)
Tell them that seas are saltier than lakes, and they will first disagree
with you - because they must disagree with "every" statement you make. Then
they will prattle on about how members of certain political parties are
brainless when it comes to hydrography.
Pointing out a solid fact to such people, as you have done, is a waste of
time. It is not so much that they are incapable of reason, as it is that
their purpose in being here has nothing to do with reason.
Instead they have a compulsion to advertise their politics wherever they can
find a forum. That explains their need to associate politics with any and
every topic under the sun.
Test them. Say something about sunflowers. You'll be informed by several
of them that you know "nothing" about sunflowers, and even less about
gardening in general, and that your ignorance is characteristic of "all"
people at your end of the political spectrum.
That is when it will be confirmed for you that you are dealing with morons.
--Jason
> bassem
>
> >--Jason
>
Jason Nasr
--Jason
Jason Nasr
"joseph hobeika" <hob...@attglobal.net>
> Bassem has a tendency to argue for the sake of argument &
> wobbles all over the place , but basically ; he is a good person.
> The skunks of the LF of ga'ga' the thug & criminal & the blind followers
of
> the goumayell family of liars & cronies are the worst creeps this world
has ever
> known; their names or aliases are not even worth mentioning at all .
>
that they didn't see to it that you became a social being.
I won't comment further on your lack of civility, since that is something
that your parents are no doubt responsible for.
Try to get some discursive content into your posts to us. Your insults just
waste everyone's time. Have something to "say".
--Jason
Jason Nasr
"ME" <m...@gq.com> wrote in message
news:4fD67.5158$Px1.6...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> There is joke about this:
>
> At AUB Students were protesting high Fees, the ISF started arresting
> Students.
>
> ISF: inta ma3 miin...
>
> Student: ana Amal,
>
> ISF: trakou
>
> ISF: inta ma3 miin...
>
> Student: ana Hizbullah
>
> ISF: trakou
>
> ISF: inta ma3 miin...
>
> Student: ana Ishtiraki Amal,
>
> ISF: trakou
>
> ISF: inta ma3 miin...
>
> Student: ana ma bit3ata siyassi
>
> ISF: kmichou tal3ou 3al Camion
>
--Jason
Omri Schwarz
> In article <9jdqs...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Fuad Abiad <fua...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >The basic problem is not with the mukhabarat back home. That's just bullshit.
>
> That's indeed a problem.. May way around it is to remove the association
> between my first name and last name in my usenet header. Check the
> header of my message. It is camouflaged from the Deja drones but any
> intelligent human being can figure it out.
>
> It used to be people where afraid from the CIA and FBI as well. Now they
> are afraid from Deja. Those who want to be afraid or have reason to be
> afraid will always find a ghoul to scare them.
>
> >* It is has got to do with the fact that a person using his/her own real name
> >can be vilified by an anonymous idiot and that such vilification is forever
> >archived on deja.com.
>
> Right, but there can be more than one Fuad Abiad in the world.. there is no
> identity test known to exist that says that the person being vilified is really
> you.
And besides, ever since the Usenet was opened to outside
academia (1991 or so), and especially since the Neverending September,
anonymous kooks have tried hurling libel at people, from accusations
of prejudice, to accusations of pedophila, to no avail.
Nobody ever lost anything to anonymous accusations.
--
Omri Schwarz --- ocs...@mit.edu ('h' before war)
Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering: "Noise is principally
due to the presence of the patient." -- R.F. Farr
BM
In article <AMH67.5797$Px1.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
ME <m...@gq.com> wrote:
>Well until we have a free speech in Lebanon, I will not take any chances.
>Lets not forget that we live in a Country where 200,000 lost their lives due
>to Unnatural events.
This can go on for the duration of your natural life. Will you then go on
hiding?
I am not waiting for free speech in Lebanon, I am exercising it now and
here. I am taking a chance that the mokhabarat types are too busy rounding
people and beating them to get to me. I think I am low on their priority
list, assuming they notice me at all.
bassem
richard joseph
>
> The point is, friends of mine have been tortured in the Defense Ministry
and
> warned to stay off political activities.
My feeling about anonymous postings is this: they are justified where
retaliation against one's person, family, or property is a real possibility
(however remote). The poster, not others, is the best judge of this
possibility.
On the other hand, they are not justified where they render the poster
unaccountable for his/her abusive words and deeds. Anonymity should not
shield the poster from public rebuke for personal attacks and irresponsible
statements.
In the latter case, let the anonymous come forward and accept responsibility
for their deeds.
Richard
ME
> Once they take a position, no matter how preposterous - such as stating
that
> Dr. Geagea was associated with the church bombing in Jouneih - they will
> stick to it stubbornly for as long as you are willing to carry on the
> discussion.
>
> When you present them with irrefutable facts, they ignore them, and
> typically don't take the trouble to edit them, but simply send them back
to
> you with an insult or an inanity tacked on.
Yet no one seems to mention that Geagea was found innocent in the Church
Bombing by the Courts, the very case that was used to Exclude him from the
Amnesty Law. It was left as a way out, in case Syria wants him out of
jail, they will say OOPS the other charges fall under the Amnesty, and since
the Church bombing was not his doing, They will re-instate the Amnesty on
him, then and only then, Geagea is free to walk out, a Get out of Jail
(card).
SO the Muppet show goes on.