Re: The "Holocaust Industry" - Quotes from Professor Norman Finkelstein
Pope About Town
(2000/2001)
Editor's Note: Raul Hilberg is the most distinguished historian on the Nazi
holocaust, best known for his classic three-volume study The Destruction of
the European Jews, and a member of the American Academy of Arts and
Sciences.
VALOR (Brazil), 4 August 2000
Raul Hilberg, author of the classic The Destruction of the European Jews, is
the world's leading authority on the Nazi holocaust. A Brazilian journalist,
Carlos Haag, questioned him about The Holocaust Industry. Below is Hilberg's
reply:
RH: "Today he is rather unpopular and his book will certainly not become a
best seller, but what it says is basically true even though incomplete. It
is more a journalistic account than an in depth study on the topic, which
would need to be much longer.
To say that the Holocaust has been used in order to secure Palestine for the
Jews is nothing new and we know how important it was in the creation of
Israel. Nevertheless it will be a bitter yet necessary reminder to the
community. He is also right when he argues that nobody talked about this
topic in the USA: in 1968 a well known local encyclopedia asked me to write
an article on the Holocaust and they only wanted me to talk about Dachau and
Buchenwald because they were not interested in Auschwitz; these topics were
censored. I agree with him that people overestimate the number of survivors
and that the concept itself is ill-defined - it includes not only the
victims of the camps - and it is true that there an exaggerated number of
compensation requests are made.
There is something radically wrong in this exploitation because it is an
issue that should not be used to make money and I must confess that I found
the whole affair with the Swiss banks disturbing. The Jewish-American
community is very prosperous and there is no reason for them to ask the
Swiss for money. That seems obscene to me."
Swiss National Radio (SBC-SSR) on 31 August 2000
by Roberto Antonini
Excerpts from the interview :
Q: Professor Hilberg, you are one of the most prominent historians on the
Holocaust. Your book, "The Destruction of the European Jews," is unanimously
considered a masterpiece. So it would be very important for our listeners to
have your comment on Professor Finkelstein零 book, since it is pretty
controversial.
Raul Hilberg: Well, to be honest I wish it were longer. It's a very small
book. It may not be apparent but one needs a background to understand what
it says. Consequently I think it is very useful but not very easy reading
for those who are not familiar with what he is writing about.
Q: Professor Hilberg, generally speaking would you agree with Professor
Finkelstein when he denounces the American Jewish organizations and some
class-action suit lawyers for "extorting" money from Europe in order to
let's say "make a killing"?
Raul Hilberg: I would in substance agree with what he says because I have
said much the same things myself and the methods of the World Jewish
Congress and some other organizations or people allied with it in his
campaign I feel are detestable. I don't subscribe to them. In sum and
substance I agree with what Finkelstein says.
Q: Don't you believe that this book could be dangerous, that it could be
used by some anti-Semitic extremists, by some neo-Nazi groups for
anti-Semitic purposes?
Raul Hilberg: Well, even if they do use it in that fashion, I雋 afraid that
when it comes to the truth, it has to be said openly, without regard to any
consequences that would be undesirable, embarrassing. The fact is that we
have now crossed a line, we have seen an action that I personally cannot
defend in terms of the tactics and also of the sums of money involved in the
claims against not only the Swiss Banks but now extensively in other matters
as well.
Berliner Zeitung , September 4, 2000
by Eva Schweitzer.
The text is translated from the German original.
The American professor of political science, Raul Hilberg, aged 74, is the
leading authority in Holocaust studies. He is the author of the three-volume
study, The Destruction of the European Jews . Hilberg had to flee Austria as
a child with his parents. Today, he lives in Vermont.
Q: Norman Finkelstein accuses US Jewish institutions - in particular, the
Jewish Claims Conference (JCC) - of extorting moneys in the name of "needy
Holocaust survivors." Is this criticism shared by others?
Raul Hilberg: Finkelstein criticizes the Jewish organizations as an
outsider. However, there are also conservative Jews who oppose the
reparation payments, and there is also criticism that money is not
distributed to survivors, for example, in Commentary , the periodical of the
American Jewish Committee. In the September 2000 issue, Gabriel Schoenfeld
called the present situation concerning reparations a "growing scandal".
Q: But Finkelstein himself is a non-person in the USA.
Raul Hilberg: Yes, because it is held against him that he compares the fate
of the Jews with the Palestinians, who were expelled by the Israelis.
American Jews can*t stand that. In addition, he wrote the book, A Nation on
Trial (together with Ruth Bettina Birn ), in which Daniel Goldhagen*s book,
Hitler*s Willing Executions , is criticized. Goldhagen is very popular in
the US, even though his scholarly standard is at the level of 1946. But
Goldhagen gave vent to a repressed anger of American Jews, which is aimed at
present against all sorts of states and organizations in Europe.
Q: But the situation of American Jews today can*t be compared to the past
situation of Jews in Europe.
Raul Hilberg: This is correct. The American Jewish community is the
wealthiest and most successful in the world. Already ten years ago there
were 18 Jewish billionaires, now there are many more. One of them is Edgar
Bronfman, president of the World Jewish Congress (WJC) and one of the main
shareholders of Seagrams. These people could put an end to poverty among
Holocaust survivors within one week.
Q: What is the importance of the Holocaust in the US today?
Raul Hilberg: Many intellectuals in the US use the Holocaust to get
positions at universities or museums. The German Studies Association - an
association of American scholars specializing in German culture - has been
around for decades. But students were not interested in post-war Germany.
Only when the Holocaust was discovered as a topic - this happened 15, 20
years ago - did the association begin to blossom. Today there are hundreds
of courses on the Holocaust in the US. And when scholars want to get a
teaching position or publish a book, it works best if the topic is the
Holocaust. The same is true for newspapers. If I am listening to "Deutsche
Welle" [a German radio program], I experience a totally different Germany
than when I am reading the New York Times .
Q: The campaign against the Swiss banks was also aimed at shoveling money
into US coffers, Finkelstein says.
Raul Hilberg: The WJC*s move against the Swiss banks was essentially a clash
between American and European culture. In Europe, class-action lawsuits of
the type used against the Swiss are unknown. In the US they are common, for
instance, against the tobacco industry. The WJC and the lawyers told the
Swiss banks: You won*t be able to do business in the US if you don*t pay $20
billion. In the US one knows that this is only an initial threat, but the
Swiss were shocked.
Q: But there were dormant accounts which belonged to Holocaust victims.
Raul Hilberg: But not worth $20 billion. In the 1930s, Jews were poor. My
family belonged to the middle class, but we did not have a bank account in
Austria, let alone in Switzerland. In most of the dormant accounts only a
few thousands francs were left. The really rich Jews could escape abroad or
their heirs have long since claimed the moneys.
Q: Weren*t these the findings of the Volcker committee, which was supposed
to clarify matters?
Raul Hilberg: The current value of the moneys in the dormant Jewish accounts
is far less than the $1.25 billion paid by the Swiss. And the investigation
itself cost at least 250 millions - lawyers and accountants made a lot of
money. But after the Volcker report was published, it would have been
embarrassing for the Swiss to say: We paid too much. At that time, I told
three newspapers - Weltwoche (Switzerland), Forum (Austria), and Haaretz
(Israel) - that this was blackmail. The coalition of claimants did not try
to silence me. These people were presumably afraid to lose such a fight.
Q: But Finkelstein*s main allegation is that the money - half of which the
Swiss bankers have already paid out - doesn*t go to the account owners.
Raul Hilberg: It takes a long time until a judge can come to a decision
about the distribution of moneys. One part of the moneys should go to
account holders or their heirs; one part to forced laborers employed by
companies which had accounts in Switzerland or companies which had invested
in Switzerland; and one part to refugees who were refused entry at the
border. It is difficult to clarify the details.
Q: And what remains for the organizations?
Raul Hilberg: According to the agreement with the banks nothing should go to
Jewish organizations and their own projects, but they are already queuing up
to get money for educational purposes and memorials.
Q: Why weren*t similar measures taken against American banks, where moneys
from Holocaust victims were also deposited?
Raul Hilberg: This is just starting. There are also suits against Israeli
banks. But presumably the net result will be that there are as small sums to
be found as in the Swiss accounts.
Q: Why are these demands, as well as the demands to compensate forced
labors, being made at such a late date?
Raul Hilberg: During the Cold War the US had to show consideration for its
allies. For this reason, no questions concerning Turkish collaboration with
the Nazis are raised to this day - because Turkey is an important ally of
the US and Israel. But in Europe Jewish organizations can nowadays collect
money without jeopardizing the security of the US. I personally would like
to know why the WJC has hardly put any pressure on Austria, even as leading
Nazis and SS leaders were Austrians, Hitler included.
Q: What do you think is the reason?
Raul Hilberg: Immediately after the war, the US wanted to make the Russians
withdraw from Austria, and the Russians wanted to keep Austria neutral,
therefore there was a common interest to grant Austria victim status. And
later Austria could cry poor - though its per capita income is as high as
Germany*s. And, most importantly, the Austrian PR machinery works better.
Austria has the opera ball, the imperial castle, Mozartkugeln [a chocolate].
Americans like that. And Austrians invest and export relatively little to
the US, therefore they are less vulnerable to blackmail. In the meantime,
they set up a commission in Austria to clarify what happened to Jewish
property. Victor Klima, the former chancellor, has asked me to join. My
father fought for Austria in the First World War and in 1939 he was kicked
out of Austria. After the war they offered him ten dollars per month as
compensation. For this reason I told Klima, no thank you, this makes me
sick.
Q: Another issue is the number of Holocaust survivors because this is used
as a basis for allocating compensation.
Raul Hilberg: First of all, it is difficult to define who counts as a
Holocaust survivor. Somebody who was in Auschwitz or hiding in the woods
counts. But somebody who was living undetected in a Paris apartment or was
married to a non-Jew? Or somebody who could emigrate to the US? I would not
think so.
Q: During the last round of negotiations, the Jewish slave-laborers were
the main issue. The JCC spoke of 400,000 Jewish slave-laborers surviving in
concentration camps and 300,000 in camps in Eastern Europe. Reference was
made to your book.
Raul Hilberg: I never presented such figures. In 1945 many Jews were
transferred from one camp to another. There were different camps, like
Bergen-Belsen and Mauthausen, or small sub-camps, for instance Grindlitz,
where Oskar Schindler kept his Jews. Therefore, it is irresponsible to
present exact figures to the media.
Q: You once said that quality control is missing in Holocaust studies.
Raul Hilberg: That is correct, in particular, in respect to several of the
elite universities. This is the only reason why Goldhagen could obtain a PhD
in political science at Harvard. There was nobody on the faculty who could
have checked his work.
Q: Salomon Korn, a representative of the Jewish community in Germany and a
member of the JCC, sees the problem not in Finkelstein's theses but in the
German debate of them.
Raul Hilberg: There is one taboo in Germany: Germans must not attack Jews.
That is the reason why such coverage is given to a Jew attacking another
Jew. But only when this taboo is broken will Germany be really emancipated.
Raul Hilberg: A New Interview in Le Monde, 15 February 2001
[English Translation]
Raul Hilberg, historian
"A BOOK GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION"
In 2000, when Norman Finkelstein's short book, The Holocaust Industry, came
out in the United States, I immediately understood that he was touching a
grave and disturbing subject. Finkelstein effectively asks: What have
American Jews made of the Holocaust? And he answers: a systematically bad
usage, as much on the part of Jewish organizations as Jewish intellectuals.
He qualifies as sterile the argument on the "uniqueness" of the Holocaust,
and implicitly rejects the idea that Israel and the Jewish community at
large can count on the Holocaust to serve such and such privilege, such and
such function.
Of course, let us not forget that the creation of Israel and the mindset of
Jews generally are inseparable from the traumatic experience of Nazism. If
non-Jews can be sickened by paranoia, for Jews it is a remedy. The conflicts
that tore Europe apart were carried out thanks to airplanes and tanks, in
between threat and revenge. Today these weapons are the safeguard of
Israel's independence. Such are the lessons learned by those who survived
the Holocaust or that observed it as potential victims.
The political power finally obtained by the Jews can create a delicate
situation. The non-Jewish world is poorly equipped to counter Jewish demands
for reparations. And facing pressure, it makes concessions beyond the limits
of justice. For example, let us note the grossness of the offensive
undertaken by American Jews against the Swiss banks - among other European
economic targets. The self-appointed commander-in-chief of this Holocaust
industry operation is Edgar Bronfman of Seagram, the empire of alcoholic
drinks. He designated himself leader of the Jewish world, including the
Jewish dead, who can't voice their opinion. He openly declared that the
Swiss banks lacked integrity, and mobilized the U.S. Congress and other
high-ranking officials to attain his goals.
The Swiss banks agreed to pay $1.25 billion, that is, $125 million at the
1945 rate. Did the banks really owe this colossal sum of money? Was world
Jewry so rich at the end of the Depression for such an amount of money to be
left sitting in Swiss bank accounts? Hard to believe.
Moreover, close to $900 million will be paid by German funds for former
Jewish slave-laborers. Each recipient will receive around $7,500. This would
mean that 125,000 former Jewish slave-laborers, about half of those who
survived, would still be alive. Is this a realistic calculation? Is it even
a calculation? Could 240,000 Jews have actually survived the brutality of
the German camps? Probably not. Nonetheless such amounts of money are today
being extorted by a Jewish leadership that is as furious as it is ignorant.
Finkelstein opened the discussion on this sad chapter. He is going in the
right direction, and it is clear that other texts on this topic will come
out. Perhaps even from Dr. Finkelstein himself.
--Translated from French by Andrew J. Warren (Hunter College student)
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=202