The SSNP - sectarian?!
Zawbaa
original texts have been copied below.
______________________
Hello Joseph,
I hope you've been well. As before, I am here to face the charges. The theme
dominating your posts recently is not rooted in reality. I'm sure you know
that. The Orthodox, through the SSNP, were not at war with the Maronites. The
SSNP membership is not overwhelmingly Orthodox, as you have indicated several
times. The charge that the movement became a tribal expression of that sect
couldn't hold water since all SSNP members uniformly declare themselves to have
surrendered to the will of God through the Bible, the Koran or wisdom. The top
leadership today is definitely not dominated by the Orthodox from Dhour
E-Shoueir.
The party is not an expression of a certain sect, as is almost every other
political and social organization in Lebanon. It is rather the expression of
people who don't find themselves naturally or easily forced to join the group
that claims to be the defender of their sect and faith. Perhaps that is why
there are many Orthodox in the party. But we also have many more from other
religious backgrounds. They could be people like me: I come from a mixed
marriage. One parent is Moslem and the other is Christian (not Orthodox). I
didn't "naturally" follow a certain group. I was given the opportunity to put
some thought behind the philosophy I wanted to adopt. I have never felt as an
outsider in any gathering of party members.
Taking into consideration the general theme of your other posts, I will tell
you what I understood you saying with your four point argument from 5/26 (parts
have been copied below):
At least 50% of SSNP members come from Christian backgrounds, probably
making-up a majority. Maronites couldn't and wouldn't vote for an SSNP
candidate, so all the Christians must be Orthodox. That makes the SSNP a
sectarian party like any other. They fought alongside certain factions that
killed people of a certain religion. The Orthodox SSNP was on the same side as
the PSP and others who killed Maronites. The party spearheaded some battles, so
it must be held responsible for all atrocities committed by other parties.
The idea that a mostly Orthodox SSNP wouldn't mind having a few less Maronites
around is preposterous, Joseph. Just because the Orthodox don't have a known
representative militant organization, and the SSNP doesn't represent a sect, we
can't just connect the dots.
I do need to thank you for pointing out that about 50% of the people who voted
for SSNP election candidates were Christians. Since you would agree that
Lebanon's population is about 50% Christian and 50% Moslem, it makes the SSNP a
true representative of the Lebanese, across the board.
I am also glad to see that all the guilt you attribute to the SSNP is by
association. We went down to the sewer to fix it and we got associated with
the rats that live down there. We stopped massacres when we were able to. Most
of the time we risked getting ourselves thrown in the pot too. At Sodeco and
downtown when the SSNP fighters advanced, the Mourabetoon came right behind,
took pictures of themselves and aimed a few shots at us before leaving. That
made for a good day for them.
You assign guilt to the SSNP because you don't recall it condemning a massacre
at Bmariam that you personally know to have been committed by the PSP. The SSNP
condemned all sectarian bloodshed. A condemnation of that particular incident
was not necessary. I'm not familiar with what happened but if there was
bloodshed of civilians, the SSNP condemned it. You should rightfully expect a
high sense of accountability and responsibility from the SSNP because it is an
honorable organization. I would like to see you do the same with other
political and social entities. Did you do anything to stop your friends, the LF
crew from Madfoon, from committing atrocities? Were they honorable fighters?
When I had a dialogue with you six months ago, I had no idea you were
associated with LF militiamen. I have to tell you that receiving criticism from
an associate of that vision first brings me anger, then laughter and then
sadness. My first encounter with the mind that drummed up that vision was in
1975. It would become known as Black Saturday. But I have learned a long time
ago that you don't present your case by discrediting the other side, or by
saying that it didn't matter what you did since the other side was far dirtier.
In this case it would have been very easy for me to point a finger at those
responsible for the overwhelming number of deaths by slaughter.
I have never had any trouble standing for anything the SSNP has done. I know
for a fact that the party members have the highest of ethics. If you observed
our positions from the earlier days of the war, you would have known that we
initially decided not get into the fighting because it simply wasn't our fight.
When we got in, it was reluctantly and to stop the grand separatist design. Our
ferocity demonstrated our determination to never allow a repeat of the purges
that happened in the late 40's and early 50's. Our members' doors were kicked
down and they were shot where they sat. We saw that coming, and we had to move.
You caught a childhood friend trying to smuggle a booby trapped car into your
area. He told you that those wlad al quawmiye gave it to him, and somehow his
treason and guilt went away. I bet you found some local component to the story
when you looked into it. The guy was unemployed and down on his luck, as you
indicated. He may have wanted to hurt someone. That's why crazed people
knowingly drive car bombs. It is probable that some SSNP members may have been
caught in inter-village and inter-clan rivalries, but the SSNP does not booby
trap cars. You make it sound like the SSNP specializes in car bombs - No, that
is not "common knowledge." If we had the evil intention, the deed could be
accomplished easier and cheaper with flying shells. There would be no need for
an idiot to drive the car.
We don't send bombs indiscriminately into areas our relatives live in. The SSNP
never shelled a civilian area over and over again so residents would vacate
their homes. I am not claiming that every act of every SSNP member was
chivalrous and honorable. I do know however that the SSNP fielded the most
restrained and disciplined troops.
As far as some members traveling in North America with the aim of "blowing up"
other SSNP members, I doubt that very seriously. There was a division in the
party but the deep rooted animosity that would accompany a criminal act has
never existed among members. They all act more like fraternity and sorority
brothers and sisters. That is well known. Perhaps some people wanted to disrupt
a meeting - I can buy that. Suggesting that they wanted to commit an act of
terrorism in the US is preposterous.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like you can get stuck seeing our
homeland through a sectarian lens. Even the outline for a secular society that
you posted on 5/24 contained formulas with percentages aimed at guaranteeing
the small sects equal representation. One person - one vote should be the
formula, period. Blocks and caucuses will develop naturally along social lines.
In a real democracy a block of 1% might have the deciding votes. The Mutran and
the Mufti should never be able to deny the state the right to grant citizens
marriage licenses.
Let's keep talking.
Best regards,
TaHya Sourya
YaHya Loubnan
Ghassan
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Subject: Re: What's left and what's right?
From: jose...@hotmail.com
Date: 5/25/99 Message-id: <7iea2t$rm9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
It's guilt by association, and I agree with that. The SSNP in the
mountains, either stood by in the mountains in 1983 and watched the
sectarian massacres, or members who were from a certain religion
participated in it. As for Jumblat's socialist party, it was sectarian
all they way. As far as the North was concerned (Koura and Batroun),
the SSNP did not participate in the sectarian pre-attack activities,
but they played a major part in the attack and joined arms with those
who did the killings on sectarian basis. The fact that the local SSNP
people defended the residents against random violence (and as much as
it is appreciated), it remains an after the fact thing. Party
philosophy does not make one of difference when you're looking at the
aftemath of an attack where hundreds of people were raped and massacred
based only on their religious identity. This alliance with the
attackers remained long after that attack and remains until today.
Then there's the issue of car bombs. The SSNP, or at least some of its
elements (who could not have been operating without the protection of
the party and its protector in the North at the time), was preparing
car bombs and sending them to East Beirut and other places. These bombs
were prepared in Koura in one of the SSNP strongholds. In one very well
known incident, the SSNP recruited a guy from Batroun, with no job and
no financial prospects. He was someone who used to cross the Madfoun
every day, and was well known and liked by the Madfoun LF crew (we all
knew each other very well as kids before the war). His car was booby-
trapped in Koura and he was asked to drive it to East Beirut in return
for cash. Once at the Madfoun crossing, he had an attack of consience
and turned himself in. Bombs like these kill randomly, and mostly
people from one sect (based on their placement). How about the actions
of the SSNP of North America? does anyone remember an incident, a few
years back when some SSNP members were caught crossing from Canada into
the US, with the intent of blowing up an SSNP meeting (rival faction)?
the SSNP needs to take full responsibility. I know that the purists
always like to think the best of the parties they ideolize, but as far
as the Lebanese war is concerned, a reality check is needed.
--Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Subject: Re: What's left and what's right?
From: jose...@hotmail.com
Date: 5/26/99 Message-id: <7ifsuo$23p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Here are the facts:
1. At least 50% of the SSNP membership is from a single religion. This
is based on the electoral base of the villages controlled by the SSNP
(Koura and Maten). They are Christian, so it would be strange to think
of these SSNP members working against other Christians who do not
happen to be SSNP.
2. The SSNP allied itself, and fought alongside groups who were
sectarian to the core and killed along sectarian lines. In some cases
(Koura and Batroun), the SSNP was in the lead. At least in the case of
Batroun, there were hundreds of innocent victims as a result of the
invasion of 1976. These are verifiable facts.
3. Given #2 above, and partially #1, and given the sects of the people
who were killed, not in battle, but along sectarian lines, by
association, the SSNP is a sectarian organization. Look at the results.
No matter what the party line is, results speak for themselves. The
SSNP had the choice of sitting on the sidelines, when things turned
ugly in Lebanon, but they did not. This is a deliberate act on their
own. More guilt by association.
4. The SSNP designed and set up booby trapped cars in Christian areas,
heavily populated by a certain sect. This is common knowledge, although
personally, I am aware only of a single case that can be verified,
having known the guy who was supposed to drive the booby-trapped car.
The other cars carried the same signature. These were not smart bombs
designed to take out military targets, but rather weapons of revenge
against innocent civilians, who happen to belong to a certain sect.
Knowing all this, how do you classify the SSNP? why didn't they make
any serious attempts at resolving these paradoxes?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Subject: Re: What's left and what's right?
From: jose...@hotmail.com
Date: 5/26/99 Message-id: <7igop4$krg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
The attackers were mainly PSP. This was September 1983. SSNP members
though were not beyond participating in these massacres. The sectarian
flames engulfed them just as it did everyone else. The zawba'a all over
the place came later and I don't recall ever seeing the SSNP condemning
it. Yes, I know, this came after the Israeli withdrawal, and the
supposed abuse at the hands of a certain group, but a sectarian
massacre, with every living breathing soul killed, is still a sectarian
massacre. I don't know why anyone thinks that a particular group in
Lebanon is beyond sectarian violence, simply based on their published
party line. Actions speak louder than words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
__________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: A daring Arab
From: jose...@hotmail.com
Date: 5/27/99 5:02 message-id: <7ikbtn$9ii$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
OK, we'll cover this, since you insist. Doesn't it strike you as an odd
coincidence that the majority of SSNP membership is from a single sect,
and that this sect happens to be that of the founder? Is this exemplary
of non-sectarian parties. In this case though, I believe that what
started as sectarian ended up closer to tribal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
________________________________________
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Subject: Re: Secularism in Lebanon (was Nonsensical subject removed)
From: jose...@hotmail.com
Date: 5/24/99 1:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <7ic338$9tf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
Right on. In order for an secular system to be established and
transcend governments, people and politics, a couple of things must be
in place:
1. A democratic sytem of government, where the people elect the chief
executive of the country.
2. Iron clad constitution guaranteeing the rights of individuals, and
giving equal treatement under criminal and civil laws to all citizens.
#1 will remove any obstacles preventing anyone in Lebanon from
occupying higher office. Democracy has a way of taking care of
individual issues, even in areas where represenation from one or more
sects is weak. It's all about votes. Here's an example:
- Area X has a 90% ratio of sect A, 5% of sect B and 5% of sect C
- There will be multiple candidates from sect A for the office
- Even if no one from sect B or C are elected, they can turn their to
any of the candidates from sect A in return for having their agenda
represented. In a strange way, this sort of open democracy gives even
more power to minorities (see how Israeli religious minorities always
end up with agendas very well represented, by playing their small
number of candidates in this game).
Of course, the absolute minimum is a clear and unobstructed democracy.
#2 is a pre-requisite for #1. The constitution will guarantee that no
matter what the form of government might be, it will ALWAYS be secular
and certain things will not be allowed, no matter who controls the
government.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
____________________________________________
jose...@hotmail.com
conclusions that you made, and way off the mark on others. I will
respond to your post in length at a later time (lots of reports to
prepate this morning).
--
The opinions expressed here are those of the author
and do not reflect the opinions of my employer
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
jose...@hotmail.com
zaw...@aol.com (Zawbaa) wrote:
Ghassan writes:
=============
This is a response to a few recent articles Joseph posted. Some of his
original texts have been copied below.
______________________
Hello Joseph,
I hope you've been well. As before, I am here to face the charges. The
theme dominating your posts recently is not rooted in reality. I'm sure
you know that. The Orthodox, through the SSNP, were not at war with the
Maronites. The SSNP membership is not overwhelmingly Orthodox, as you
have indicated several times. The charge that the movement became a
tribal expression of that sect couldn't hold water since all SSNP
members uniformly declare themselves to have surrendered to the will of
God through the Bible, the Koran or wisdom. The top leadership today is
definitely not dominated by the Orthodox from Dhour E-Shoueir.
Joseph Responds:
==============
Hope everything is going well for you. It took me a couple of days to
rspond, as I've been extremely busy. Here it goes:
1. I did not say that the Orthodox were at war with the Maronites
through the SSNP. The SSNP though, was at war with the Maronite
leadership during the war years, and politically prior to that. This
was true even for those Maronite factions that fought against the LF
(of course in here I'm talking about the Marada, who had a regional
quarrel with the SSNP). The SSNP, I believe, did that in support of the
agenda of the National Movement.
2. You're splitting hairs here. What you're saying is the following:
the SSNP is not overwhelmingly Orthodox, because by definition, an SSNP
member rejects traditional religions and adopts a more universal God,
therefore they no longer are Orthodox. You may be right, but at least
my SSNP friends attend church on regular basis. I said that the
majority of membership in the SSNP came from a group of people who
originally were listed as Orthodox in Lebanon (and Orthodox background
in the Diaspora). I know that I am correct on this one.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
The party is not an expression of a certain sect, as is almost every
other political and social organization in Lebanon. It is rather the
expression of people who don't find themselves naturally or easily
forced to join the group that claims to be the defender of their sect
and faith. Perhaps that is why there are many Orthodox in the party.
But we also have many more from other religious backgrounds. They could
be people like me: I come from a mixed marriage. One parent is Moslem
and the other is Christian (not Orthodox). I didn't "naturally" follow
a certain group. I was given the opportunity to put some thought behind
the philosophy I wanted to adopt. I have never felt as an outsider in
any gathering of party members.
Joseph Responds:
==============
The SSNP is one of the few parties in Lebanon that accepts people from
all religions among its ranks. It is not unique in that sense, and
there are a number of other non-sectarian parties in Lebanon (although
the war has pushed things to an extreme). The SSNP though is not free
of religious discrimination. Here's a quote from the SSNP web site:
"From the conquest of Jericho more than 3000 years ago, to the ongoing
atrocities in our southern territories (Lebanon & Palestine),
The 'Jewish Dream' turned out to be our nightmare.
Torturing innocent people, terrorizing nations and justifying the
killing of all Goyem (Non-Jews) are characteristics that are deeply
rooted in their religion, ideology and beliefs.
In the following pages we will try to expose the Zionist atrocities,
massacres and their continuous onslaught on humanity."
The SSNP was doing well in here, until it said "rooted in their
religion". From that point on, it does not matter how you position
Zionist versus non-Zionist, the damage is already done. I believe that
I've mentioned this to you in the past, and you tried telling me that
the SSNP makes a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. If that
is the case, then the web site needs to reflect it.
I do visit the SSNP web site occasionally, and I noticed that in the
past couple of weeks, you've made some major modifications. The art
work is impressive (and I'm sure was real time consuming). I'll re-
visit when you fill in the areas that are under construction.
Ghassan Says:
============
Taking into consideration the general theme of your other posts, I will
tell you what I understood you saying with your four point argument
from 5/26 (parts have been copied below):
At least 50% of SSNP members come from Christian backgrounds, probably
making-up a majority.
Joseph Responds:
==============
I'm specifically talking about an Orthodox majority. See my earlier
response.
Ghassan Says:
============
Maronites couldn't and wouldn't vote for an SSNP candidate, so all the
Christians must be Orthodox.
Joseph Responds:
===============
Huh?!? I don't see how you got here from my posts. I know some Maronite
SSNP members who would vote anytime for an SSNP candidate. They
probably cannot, since they live in districts that do not have any SSNP
candidates (Batroun). This is very different for Koura, an area that
can support an SSNP candidate, and has an Orthodox majority.
I am pointing out this simple paradox (one of many) that seems to guide
politics in Lebanon. The Orthodox are a minority in Lebanon, yet they
are a majority in the SSNP. Could this have something to do with the
tribal politics of Lebanon? I say tribal, because I know that the
majority of Orthodox in Lebanon is not SSNP, so it is not sect-based
and sect does not equate tribe.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
That makes the SSNP a sectarian party like any other. They fought
alongside certain factions that killed people of a certain religion.
The Orthodox SSNP was on the same side as the PSP and others who killed
Maronites. The party spearheaded some battles, so it must be held
responsible for all atrocities committed by other parties.
Joseph Responds:
==============
These are plain facts. The SSNP fought alongside people who were
killing on sectarian basis. The fact that this was not the SSNP's
intention, does not change that, and does not change the fact that if
it was not for the SSNP (who helped win some of the battles, not matter
what the SSNP thought it was fighting for), those killings may not have
occurred. In some cases, the SSNP stopped murders, but only AFTER the
area was occupied thanks to their help. This is another paradox that
you should think about. It does not matter what the intent was, what
matters is results. Example: you get in a car, drive with a couple of
people to a liquor store. Along the way, you discuss robbing the store.
Once you get there, the two other people get out, you wait in the car.
Inside the store, something goes wrong, and a customer gets killed. If
the three get caught, who will be convicted of murder? Hint: all three
of them. The law is clear on guilt by association, so why shouldn't I?
Ghassan Writes:
=============
The idea that a mostly Orthodox SSNP wouldn't mind having a few less
Maronites around is preposterous, Joseph. Just because the Orthodox
don't have a known representative militant organization, and the SSNP
doesn't represent a sect, we can't just connect the dots.
Joseph Responds:
==============
What's preposterous is that you're suggesting that I said that. There
is no animosity between Orthodox and Maronite. There is some between
SSNP and Maronite leadership along the lines I detailed earlier and
along political party lines. What I did say though (read again), is
that in Bmariam, some of the SSNP boys participated in the blood bath
that was led by the PSP. Those SSNP folks were local (not Orthodox).
Once they were done, they remembered that they were SSNP, and painted
the Zawbaaa all over the place. Is this something the party sanctioned?
No, but it's what actually happened.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
I do need to thank you for pointing out that about 50% of the people
who voted for SSNP election candidates were Christians. Since you would
agree that Lebanon's population is about 50% Christian and 50% Moslem,
it makes the SSNP a true representative of the Lebanese, across the
board.
Joseph Responds:
==============
Christian as in Orthodox Christian. The Orthodox do not make up more
than 50% of the Lebanese. The SSNP membership, no matter how you want
to spin it, is still overwhelmingly Orthodox. If things have changed
since the late 80's, then please educate me (but please don't tell me
that they changed religions to become party members). This algorithm
that you present above does not compute.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
I am also glad to see that all the guilt you attribute to the SSNP is
by association. We went down to the sewer to fix it and we got
associated with the rats that live down there. We stopped massacres
when we were able to. Most of the time we risked getting ourselves
thrown in the pot too. At Sodeco and downtown when the SSNP fighters
advanced, the Mourabetoon came right behind, took pictures of
themselves and aimed a few shots at us before leaving. That made for a
good day for them.
Joseph Responds:
==============
I am not familiar with the Sodeco front, but I know that in the North,
the SSNP got shot at from both directions.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
You assign guilt to the SSNP because you don't recall it condemning a
massacre at Bmariam that you personally know to have been committed by
the PSP. The SSNP condemned all sectarian bloodshed. A condemnation of
that particular incident was not necessary. I'm not familiar with what
happened but if there was bloodshed of civilians, the SSNP condemned
it. You should rightfully expect a high sense of accountability and
responsibility from the SSNP because it is an honorable organization.
Joseph Responds:
==============
There have not been any instances of Christian SSNP members committing
any sectarian violence. Simply put, they would not get the opportunity
fighting alongside the groups they allied themselves with. There has
been instances of other SSNP members letting nature take its path, and
committing sectarian violence. This is what happened in Bmariam. The
SSNP was too embarrassed to acknowledge that, but the Zawbaa's left
behind tell the whole story.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
I would like to see you do the same with other political and social
entities. Did you do anything to stop your friends, the LF crew from
Madfoon, from committing atrocities? Were they honorable fighters?
Joseph Responds:
==============
I was not living in Lebanon when the LF that you know through the war
was formed. So to answer your question, no I did not do anything to
stop atrocities, and I do know that some were committed. All the people
I still call friends from the LF fought very honorably, and a couple of
them paid with their lives for that. Are they guilty by association of
some of the crimes committed by thugs? Probably, using my definition.
This is the way it was in Lebanon, and there's no use denying that.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
When I had a dialogue with you six months ago, I had no idea you were
associated with LF militiamen. I have to tell you that receiving
criticism from an associate of that vision first brings me anger, then
laughter and then sadness. My first encounter with the mind that
drummed up that vision was in 1975. It would become known as Black
Saturday. But I have learned a long time ago that you don't present
your case by discrediting the other side, or by saying that it didn't
matter what you did since the other side was far dirtier. In this case
it would have been very easy for me to point a finger at those
responsible for the overwhelming number of deaths by slaughter.
Joseph Responds:
==============
Yes, I have a number of friends who served in the LF. They've all been
disconnected from the LF since the mid 1980's. I am the product of my
environment, and that is a predominantly Maronite area, that voted for
non-sectarian candidates throughout its history, stayed out of the way
until June 1976, and for the most part was anti-Kataeb. This all
changed in June of 1976 when the National Front attacked. It was led by
the SSNP on one side (again, people from an SSNP village above Batroun,
which happens to be almost exclusively Orthodox, but who represented
only a minority in the village), and the PLO coming in from Beirut and
landing on the beach. This was a very well coordinated attack. It was
expected, and the people of Batroun were mostly neutral on it (they
associated more with the non-sectarian promises of the other side).
Once the SSNP and the PLO opened the door, the sectarian crowds rolled
in, killed, raped, stole, and burned. They did not even spare their
SSNP comrades-in-arms (killed some of them as well). As the battle
raged, Church bells rang in Mount Lebanon, and people who were
civilians, minding their own business before the war, poured into
Batroun to help. They stopped the massacre, and drove the attackers
back beyond Tripoli, and in the process, they overran Koura and all the
SSNP positions. It took less than 3 days to complete that. Guess what
the public sentiment in Batroun was after that? We were duped, and if
we had not gotten help, we would all be dead. Silly us for believing
those who said that this is about politics. You tell me that you do not
want to point fingers, but you're also quick to mention "those
responsible for the overwhelming number of deaths by slaughter". I
wonder who that might be.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
I have never had any trouble standing for anything the SSNP has done. I
know for a fact that the party members have the highest of ethics. If
you observed our positions from the earlier days of the war, you would
have known that we initially decided not get into the fighting because
it simply wasn't our fight. When we got in, it was reluctantly and to
stop the grand separatist design. Our ferocity demonstrated our
determination to never allow a repeat of the purges that happened in
the late 40's and early 50's. Our members' doors were kicked down and
they were shot where they sat. We saw that coming, and we had to move.
Joseph Responds:
==============
The evidence in Lebanon does not support a planned action against the
left, on the part of the right. More like the other way around, given
the progress of the war during those first few months. The SSNP was
part of that planning, and the Koura front opened up on day 1.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
You caught a childhood friend trying to smuggle a booby trapped car
into your area. He told you that those wlad al quawmiye gave it to him,
and somehow his treason and guilt went away. I bet you found some local
component to the story when you looked into it. The guy was unemployed
and down on his luck, as you indicated. He may have wanted to hurt
someone. That's why crazed people knowingly drive car bombs. It is
probable that some SSNP members may have been caught in inter-village
and inter-clan rivalries, but the SSNP does not booby trap cars. You
make it sound like the SSNP specializes in car bombs - No, that is
not "common knowledge." If we had the evil intention, the deed could be
accomplished easier and cheaper with flying shells. There would be no
need for an idiot to drive the car.
Joseph Responds:
==============
I did not catch anyone. The guy turned himself in. He was not
political, and he was lured in with the promise of money. He would have
been the perfect delivery man. Non-suspicious, and knows some of the
people at Madfoun. I did not claim that his guilt went away. There is
no doubt though where the car was booby-trapped at. I am giving you the
facts here. As for this being the work of rogue elements, that's
possible given the number of SSNP factions at the time (is the party
united today?). FYI: many parties used car bombs, despite having access
to artillery. Some even their own areas.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
We don't send bombs indiscriminately into areas our relatives live in.
The SSNP never shelled a civilian area over and over again so residents
would vacate their homes. I am not claiming that every act of every
SSNP member was chivalrous and honorable. I do know however that the
SSNP fielded the most restrained and disciplined troops.
Joseph Responds:
==============
True.
Ghassan Writes:
=============
As far as some members traveling in North America with the aim
of "blowing up" other SSNP members, I doubt that very seriously. There
was a division in the party but the deep rooted animosity that would
accompany a criminal act has never existed among members. They all act
more like fraternity and sorority brothers and sisters. That is well
known. Perhaps some people wanted to disrupt a meeting - I can buy
that. Suggesting that they wanted to commit an act of terrorism in the
US is preposterous.
Joseph Responds:
==============
I did not say that they traveled to North America. I said that they
were living in North America. They traveled from Canada to bomb a rival
group's gathering in the Boston area. I read about it in a US newspaper
(reported as a news item). I don't recall the exact date, but it must
have been in the late 80's. You should check with your sources within
the SSNP, and I will bet you a buck that they will confirm what I'm
telling you. Check with the Boston folks (they will probably know me).
Ghassan Writes:
=============
Please correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like you can get stuck seeing
our homeland through a sectarian lens. Even the outline for a secular
society that you posted on 5/24 contained formulas with percentages
aimed at guaranteeing the small sects equal representation. One person -
one vote should be the formula, period. Blocks and caucuses will
develop naturally along social lines. In a real democracy a block of 1%
might have the deciding votes. The Mutran and the Mufti should never be
able to deny the state the right to grant citizens marriage licenses.
Joseph Responds:
===============
Yes, one can get lost looking at Lebanon through a sectarian lens. The
best guarantee against the recurrence of sectarian violence is to have
constitutional protection against religious dominance (that's what I
said by the way, and not guaranteeing small sects equal
representation). One person, one vote is what I'm advocating, but not
at the expense of minorities. Permanent peace will only come when
people stop fearing and misunderstanding each other. I don't want this
post (or the others) to be misunderstood as an attack on the Orthodox,
as it is not. It is about the weirdness of Lebanese politics and how a
non-secular party, can end up with a majority, coming from a Lebanese
minority. The SSNP membership does not represent the Orthodox, and the
majority of Orthodox are not SSNP. This is the way it is in Lebanon.
When someone like you, who otherwise presents and factual posts, writes
that I am associated with the LF, it's Lebanese politics as usual. The
fact is that you don't know what my political affiliation is, and just
because I defended the LF's right to defend itself, and pointed the
facts should not paint me politically in a particular color. What ever
happened to telling it exactly like it is?
--Joseph
--Joseph
--
Abou Zouz
BRAVO...excellent responce and very well put. The battle was won due
to the free willed and patriot spirit of Batroun and its region. Your answer
below is correct. Batroun district did not plan or anticipate entering the
war untill it came to them, brought by those who planned on scoring a quick
victory. To help, some people came down with whatever they had, some with
double barrel shotguns, others quickly arranged for and gathered few guns,
placed on the hills by Ibreen above Batroun to respond to the shelling
coming in from Koura. It was because we beleived in ourselves, our land and
our freedom, we won that battle. It was a quick mini war representing
Lebanon's long draged out war, which we fought due to our beleive in
ourselves, country and freedom, a beleive that remains within us forever, as
free willed Lebanese.
<jose...@hotmail.com> wrote in message :
--
+++ Loubnan, La youkhar wala youfna +++
*
*******
*****************
***
******
<jose...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:7jhu6d$84t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Nahla Osseiran
Joseph,
Forgive me for intruding into what seems to me a private discussion, but I
have some remarks to this part of your reply below:
>The SSNP is one of the few parties in Lebanon that accepts people from
>all religions among its ranks. It is not unique in that sense, and
>there are a number of other non-sectarian parties in Lebanon (although
>the war has pushed things to an extreme).
The SSNP is the only party that accepts people from other religions who are
believers. If you mean the communits (both parties in Lebanon), then you
also have to point out that they are non-belivers(if I may use the
expression).
>The SSNP though is not free of religious discrimination. Here's a quote
from >the SSNP web site:
>"From the conquest of Jericho more than 3000 years ago, to the ongoing
>atrocities in our southern territories (Lebanon & Palestine),
>The 'Jewish Dream' turned out to be our nightmare.
>Torturing innocent people, terrorizing nations and justifying the
>killing of all Goyem (Non-Jews) are characteristics that are deeply
>rooted in their religion, ideology and beliefs.
>In the following pages we will try to expose the Zionist atrocities,
>massacres and their continuous onslaught on humanity."
Looking back at history, has the above statement been proven wrong? You
might want to answer this question, before implying the 'secterianism' of
the SSNP.
>The SSNP was doing well in here, until it said "rooted in their
>religion". From that point on, it does not matter how you position
>Zionist versus non-Zionist, the damage is already done. I believe that
>I've mentioned this to you in the past, and you tried telling me that
>the SSNP makes a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. If that
>is the case, then the web site needs to reflect it.
Zionism as a movement [ as you may know], is the product of this century.
Whereas the Jewish Dream is thousands of years old. So, as a result, you may
regard Zionism as a tool for 'fullfilling' the Jewish Dream, and in this
case, I do not see any distinction between the two.
Nahla
jose...@hotmail.com
"Nahla Osseiran" <noss...@standardmail.at> wrote:
>
> <jose...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7jhu6d$84t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Forgive me for intruding into what seems to me a private discussion,
but I
> have some remarks to this part of your reply below:
This is SCL, and no conversation here is private. Some of us have come
here with certain beliefs, but are flexible enough to learn and expand
our horizon.
> >The SSNP is one of the few parties in Lebanon that accepts people
from
> >all religions among its ranks. It is not unique in that sense, and
> >there are a number of other non-sectarian parties in Lebanon
(although
> >the war has pushed things to an extreme).
>
> The SSNP is the only party that accepts people from other religions
who are
> believers. If you mean the communits (both parties in Lebanon), then
you
> also have to point out that they are non-belivers(if I may use the
> expression).
Nahla, you're limiting your vision here to the leftist parties. There
are other center or right-of-center parties that heavily recruit from
all sects. The Ahrar had a mixed parliamentary representation. The
National Block (Eddeh) had a large following among all sects. Even on
the leftist side, the PSP claimed to be open to all (but was controlled
by Jumblat), the Akkar/North block had deupties from all religions.
They all accepted people who were and remain believers. You're limiting
your scope in here, and while Hawi was born Christian, he is a
communist, meaning that he does not believe in religion. I was
respoding to Zawabaa who implied (at least I believe that he did), that
by becoming an SSNP member, one is assumed to have abandoned his/her
traditional religious beliefs.
> >The SSNP though is not free of religious discrimination. Here's a
quote
> from >the SSNP web site:
> >"From the conquest of Jericho more than 3000 years ago, to the
ongoing
> >atrocities in our southern territories (Lebanon & Palestine),
> >The 'Jewish Dream' turned out to be our nightmare.
> >Torturing innocent people, terrorizing nations and justifying the
> >killing of all Goyem (Non-Jews) are characteristics that are deeply
> >rooted in their religion, ideology and beliefs.
> >In the following pages we will try to expose the Zionist atrocities,
> >massacres and their continuous onslaught on humanity."
>
> Looking back at history, has the above statement been proven wrong?
You
> might want to answer this question, before implying
the 'secterianism' of
> the SSNP.
Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English
Language, sectarianism as an adjective is:
1.Of, relating to, or characteristic of a sect.
2.Adhering or confined to the dogmatic limits of a sect or
denomination; partisan.
3.Narrow-minded; parochial.
or as a noun:
1. A member of a sect.
2. One characterized by bigoted adherence to a
It is the exlcusion of everything that seems to be "Jewish" which
allows me to imply the sectarianism of the SSNP. I've gone over this
point many times in the past with SSNP members, but to no avail. The
usual argument is that it's about Zionim and not Judaism. If that's
what the SSNP means, then that's what the SSNP should put on its web
site, instead of the "Jewish dream". If the SSNP is not inclusive of
all sects, then by definition, it is sectarian. See the "rooted in
their religion" quote. It's on http://www.ssnp.com
> >The SSNP was doing well in here, until it said "rooted in their
> >religion". From that point on, it does not matter how you position
> >Zionist versus non-Zionist, the damage is already done. I believe
that
> >I've mentioned this to you in the past, and you tried telling me that
> >the SSNP makes a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. If
that
> >is the case, then the web site needs to reflect it.
>
> Zionism as a movement [ as you may know], is the product of this
century.
Actually Zionism was born in 19th century Europe. It had very little
support among the Jewish populations who lived in Europe. It got its
biggest boost as a result of European anti-Judaism. This is not a
license to steal land from the Palestinians though.
> Whereas the Jewish Dream is thousands of years old. So, as a result,
you may
> regard Zionism as a tool for 'fullfilling' the Jewish Dream, and in
this
> case, I do not see any distinction between the two.
Getting stuck in the past will not help resolve the problems of the
present. The present situation is simple (but solutions are very
complex): Post world war II, Palestinians were kicked out of their
homes by European Jews, Israel was formed, since then, Israel has been
at war with the Arabs (all or some), and Israel still occupies Arab
land, there's a Palestinian refugees problem that needs to be dealt
with, retributions made, etc., there's been a war in Lebanon (this is
far too comples to pin on a single event), Lebanon has had part of its
land occupied by Isreal (and the other part by Syria). No one wil ever
arrive at a solution unless the slate is wiped clean. It's good to know
the area's history and past, but not to the detriment of the future
generations. How many generations of poor and uneducated Palestinians
do we want to see grow up in refugee camps? how many more lives should
be lost just to prove a point?
--Joseph
> Nahla
Aris2chat
hand unintentionally. Oh, what a tangled web Lebanon is. Our historical
chronology and political tree needs cliff notes to read the abbriviated
version. Every community and group has a different version in each and every
subdivision of Lebanon. No two are the alike.
We are each of us unique, just like everyone else.
(\ ~ /) Liz "Duchess"
( \O/ ) Aris...@aol.com
/ " \
/ \"Angels take themselves lightly
~~~~~ That's why they have wing"
Basil Keilani
It is true that the state of Israel was a fulfillment for
many a Jew, a Jewish dream. That is not a sectarian statement, that is a
mischaracterization on your part Joseph. Many Zionists tell you that it
is true and confirm it. My problem with some SSNP members is the
overplaying of the Jewish religion, a problem of political analyses, not
sectarianism. I do not agree and many do not agree with some party
members analyses of what it is to be Jewish, and what is Zionism.
I know members who are good at making the distinction and those who are
not. I do know the late Ina'am Raad was an open-minded fellow and
certainly not sectarian and said the statement "Harb Wujood la Hudud".
He clearly was stating he did not have this animosity towards
Jews, he hated the ideologies that divided the lands, including
Zionism and so do I.
Basil
Basil Keilani
Joseph, I agree that the term Zionist dream is preferrable to the
Jewish dream, however it was a Jewish dream to return to what they called
"Zion". However, I do not want to enter into a debate on Jewish theology.
Give me the exact quote. Technically saying the Jewish dream is not
incorrect, but more of a replacement of Jewish with Zionist is rather
politically correct. I do not accept prejudice against Jews or anyone.
You are right, when in the SSNP you are expected to abandon your
traditional religious belief, but not in the sense you might be thinking.
The backward views that existed prior to Vatican II, or not adopting a
more reformist way of looking at spirituality and the freedom of people to
worship as they please and it being a private matter, is not acceptable.
That means, in plain English, religion will be more of the personal realm,
but not completely. Before there was no separation at all. The SSNP is
expecting some separation, but is not asking for a full separation,
and asking for spiritual tolerance. It is not for the old religious views
that had people interfere into the private lives of the citizenry and
they do advocate civil marriage. In that sense you are accurate, but it
does not attack spirituality, worshipping, and accepts religious members.
You must make that distinction. You have heard of "Islam through the two
messages". This is religious inclusion, rather than exclusion and
spiritual tolerance.
Basil
Ramzi Stephan
it is not difficult to understand the simple logic . The Jewish Dream is a
danger to our existence nowadys as well since it is being backed by Zionism
. According to the Zionist doctrine, our country lies within the borders of
their dream which " includes all the Jewish people from any part of the
world " . In other words , they ( the Zionists ) do not make a distinction;
so why should I or you make? . No way before they change the definitions.
My existence is at stake ; I prefer to be misunderstood rather than a
hypocrite .
Nahla Osseiran wrote in message <7jnl6l$k88$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>...
>
><jose...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:7jhu6d$84t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> In article <19990602232702...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
>> zaw...@aol.com (Zawbaa) wrote:
>
>Joseph,
>
>Forgive me for intruding into what seems to me a private discussion, but I
>have some remarks to this part of your reply below:
>
>>The SSNP is one of the few parties in Lebanon that accepts people from
>>all religions among its ranks. It is not unique in that sense, and
>>there are a number of other non-sectarian parties in Lebanon (although
>>the war has pushed things to an extreme).
>
>The SSNP is the only party that accepts people from other religions who are
>believers. If you mean the communits (both parties in Lebanon), then you
>also have to point out that they are non-belivers(if I may use the
>expression).
>
>>The SSNP though is not free of religious discrimination. Here's a quote
>from >the SSNP web site:
>>"From the conquest of Jericho more than 3000 years ago, to the ongoing
>>atrocities in our southern territories (Lebanon & Palestine),
>>The 'Jewish Dream' turned out to be our nightmare.
>>Torturing innocent people, terrorizing nations and justifying the
>>killing of all Goyem (Non-Jews) are characteristics that are deeply
>>rooted in their religion, ideology and beliefs.
>>In the following pages we will try to expose the Zionist atrocities,
>>massacres and their continuous onslaught on humanity."
>
>Looking back at history, has the above statement been proven wrong? You
>might want to answer this question, before implying the 'secterianism' of
>the SSNP.
>
>>The SSNP was doing well in here, until it said "rooted in their
>>religion". From that point on, it does not matter how you position
>>Zionist versus non-Zionist, the damage is already done. I believe that
>>I've mentioned this to you in the past, and you tried telling me that
>>the SSNP makes a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. If that
>>is the case, then the web site needs to reflect it.
>
>Zionism as a movement [ as you may know], is the product of this century.
>Whereas the Jewish Dream is thousands of years old. So, as a result, you
may
>regard Zionism as a tool for 'fullfilling' the Jewish Dream, and in this
>case, I do not see any distinction between the two.
>
>Nahla
>
>
Basil Keilani
Actually, it is not quite accurate to put the SSNP with the other
Leftist parties in any direct fashion. The SSNP is not oppose to
capitalism, except the Neo-Liberal Economic Capitalism of the United
States just as they are opposed to the Communist-Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist
models and many Leftists who are more on the extreme Left are moving in
that direction. That would make them, perhaps, Left Centre.
As far as recruiting from different sects, this is more
representative of the SSNP than any party in the Lebanon.
As Zawba'a said, the membership is 50% Christian. That means it has a
large component that is Muslim. No other party comes close to that kind
of inclusiveness, I beg your pardon. I have been impressed by the
diversity. Also, in the leadership you hear from the names that they come
from many different backgrounds. The PSP used to have more diverse
membership when Kamal Jumblatt was alive.
Basil
Zawbaa
Thank you for your response. I enjoyed reading it and I have a few comments. I
hope that through dialogue we can find common ground so we can erode the
mistrust that seems to continue gripping our people.
On 6/7/99, In message <7jhu6d$84t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>Subject: Re: The SSNP -
sectarian?!
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<1. I did not say that the Orthodox were at war with the Maronites
through the SSNP. The SSNP though, was at war with the Maronite leadership
during the war years, and politically prior to that. This was true even for
those Maronite factions that fought against the LF (of course in here I'm
talking about the Marada, who had a regional
quarrel with the SSNP). The SSNP, I believe, did that in support of the
agenda of the National Movement.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comments:
You didn't explicitly say that the Orthodox were at war with Maronites. You did
say repeatedly that the SSNP is mostly made up of members coming from the faith
of its main founder. You made an effort to identify the party with the
Christian Orthodox Sect. You seemed to have the intention of vilifying the
party, even going as far as saying: "I believe that what started as sectarian
ended up closer to tribal." Well using your yardstick, if the SSNP that you are
presenting went to war with the LF, then an Orthodox tribe went to war with the
Maronite defenders. No?
_____________________
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<<2. You're splitting hairs here. What you're saying is the following:
the SSNP is not overwhelmingly Orthodox, because by definition, an SSNP member
rejects traditional religions and adopts a more universal God, therefore they
no longer are Orthodox. You may be right, but at least my SSNP friends attend
church on regular basis. I said that the majority of membership in the SSNP
came from a group of people who originally were listed as Orthodox in Lebanon
(and Orthodox background in the Diaspora). I know that I am correct on this
one.>>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comments:
My point here was that when a person embraces the SSNP principles, he or she
stops identifying himself or herself as a member of a certain sect. That would
be contrary to the practice of joining an organization for the purpose of being
among, or with, one's own sect members. SSNP members do not have to change
their religious practices, they simply do not base their identity on them.
______________________
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<< The SSNP is one of the few parties in Lebanon that accepts people
from all religions among its ranks. It is not unique in that sense, and there
are a number of other non-sectarian parties in Lebanon (although the war has
pushed things to an extreme). The SSNP though is not free of religious
discrimination. Here's a quote from the SSNP web site:
"From the conquest of Jericho more than 3000 years ago, to the ongoing
atrocities in our southern territories (Lebanon & Palestine),
The 'Jewish Dream' turned out to be our nightmare. Torturing innocent people,
terrorizing nations and justifying the killing of all Goyem (Non-Jews) are
characteristics that are deeply rooted in their religion, ideology and beliefs.
In the following pages we will try to expose the Zionist atrocities, massacres
and their continuous onslaught on humanity."
The SSNP was doing well in here, until it said "rooted in their religion". From
that point on, it does not matter how you position
Zionist versus non-Zionist, the damage is already done. I believe that
I've mentioned this to you in the past, and you tried telling me that
the SSNP makes a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. If that is the
case, then the web site needs to reflect it.
I do visit the SSNP web site occasionally, and I noticed that in the
past couple of weeks, you've made some major modifications. The art
work is impressive (and I'm sure was real time consuming). I'll re-visit when
you fill in the areas that are under construction.>>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comments:
Thank you for the compliment. Although I have nothing to do with the upkeep of
the web site, I will relay your comments to the members who work hard at
constructing it. They appreciate comments and suggestions. You should directly
send them yours when you visit again.
We recognize Judaism as an indigenous religion in which both Christianity and
Islam found inspiration. Our quarrel is mainly with Zionism and its plan to
reestablish Eretz Yisrael at the expense of our people and our nation. The
Zionists use their religion to justify the misery they have caused. They
believe that a divine duty calls on them to conquer and confiscate the property
of others. It could be that the Jewish religion actually compels them to ignore
and discount our misery; Or it could be that evil men are interpreting a noble
religion to serve their needs. I would like to think that it is the latter.
However, one cannot dismiss the fact that Judaism became the science of
interpreting the Old Testament which is seen as the history of the Jewish
people, not the history of the early believers. It is "their" book. Anyway you
look at it, it boils down to whether one considers the Chosen People to be the
early believers in the biblical prophets' teachings, or literally the 12 tribes
of Israel and their descendants. Is this a current problem that is rooted in
religion? Obviously so. Do the people who claim to be the descendants of the
Chosen People, most of whom are born citizens of distant countries, have the
right to displace other people for the purpose of fulfilling a religious dream?
Anyway, when you say "discriminate", you are implying that we would have a
problem with the practice of a certain religion, or that we would interfere
with it. That is definitely not so. We advocate a very high degree of religious
tolerance. A group of people can choose to worship red monkeys, even if their
subjects are an unruly crowd and messy eaters. We wouldn't have a problem with
that as long as they are not infringing on anybody else's rights. We have
nothing against the Jewish people who abide by the noble message of the book
and are not trying to make "biblical history" at the expense of others.
___________________________
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<<<Ghassan Says:
============
Maronites couldn't and wouldn't vote for an SSNP candidate, so all the
Christians must be Orthodox.
Joseph Responds:
===============
Huh?!? I don't see how you got here from my posts. I know some Maronite SSNP
members who would vote anytime for an SSNP candidate. They probably cannot,
since they live in districts that do not have any SSNP candidates (Batroun).
This is very different for Koura, an area that can support an SSNP candidate,
and has an Orthodox majority.
I am pointing out this simple paradox (one of many) that seems to guide
politics in Lebanon. The Orthodox are a minority in Lebanon, yet they are a
majority in the SSNP. Could this have something to do with the tribal politics
of Lebanon? I say tribal, because I know that the majority of Orthodox in
Lebanon is not SSNP, so it is not sect-based and sect does not equate
tribe.>>>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comments:
You used the Koura constituency to support your argument. I just did the math.
You claim that the majority of the SSNP membership and support base is
Christian Orthodox. Then you say that 50% of the people who voted for SSNP
candidates are Christians. One would have to deduce that those Christian voters
would have to be almost all Orthodox to support your claim.
______________________
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<<< These are plain facts. The SSNP fought alongside people who were
killing on sectarian basis. The fact that this was not the SSNP's intention,
does not change that, and does not change the fact that if it was not for the
SSNP (who helped win some of the battles, not matter what the SSNP thought it
was fighting for), those killings may not have occurred. In some cases, the
SSNP stopped murders, but only AFTER the area was occupied thanks to their
help. This is another paradox that you should think about. It does not matter
what the intent was, what matters is results. Example: you get in a car, drive
with a couple of people to a liquor store. Along the way, you discuss robbing
the store.
Once you get there, the two other people get out, you wait in the car.
Inside the store, something goes wrong, and a customer gets killed. If
the three get caught, who will be convicted of murder? Hint: all three
of them. The law is clear on guilt by association, so why shouldn't
I?>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comments:
This example does not apply to our discussion. If before getting to the liquor
store there was an agreement to rob it, then at that point all three people
become guilty of conspiracy to commit a crime. Consequently the person who
stays in the car becomes an accessory to murder, which resulted from a crime he
conspired to commit. The intention to commit a crime was established before the
tragedy occurred. That's what the law is clear about.
In the case of a battlefield, you make alliances with the objective of winning
a military battle. Had the SSNP been in complete control of a civilian area
before letting savages in, you could say that they were guilty of the massacres
as if they did the killing themselves. The Israelis were in complete military
control of the camps before they let the bloodthirsty trolls in. They were
guilty of the massacre they caused. The SSNP has never done anything close to
that.
_________________________
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<< What's preposterous is that you're suggesting that I said that.
There is no animosity between Orthodox and Maronite. There is some between SSNP
and Maronite leadership along the lines I detailed earlier and along political
party lines. What I did say though (read again), is that in Bmariam, some of
the SSNP boys participated in the blood bath that was led by the PSP. Those
SSNP folks were local (not Orthodox).
Once they were done, they remembered that they were SSNP, and painted the
Zawbaaa all over the place. Is this something the party sanctioned? No, but
it's what actually happened.>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comments:
You say that the SSNP is mostly made up of Christian Orthodox. Then you say
that in many instances they stood around while others allied to them killed and
raped people in Christian areas. One would have to think that you are implying
those SSNP members simply didn't mind what they saw happening because the
people being killed must have not been Orthodox..
It would help if we started calling the spade a spade. Why don't you say that
members of the SSNP who come from Druze families got caught up in a tribal
massacre. Considering the madness that gripped the country, I can see how that
can happen and I wouldn't argue with it. I don't know if their conscience would
kick in afterwards, and if they would paint the Zawbaa all over the place to
associate their party with a shameful blood bath. Anyway, one enthusiastic
supporter or member can spray dozens of Zawabi' in one evening. It doesn't
necessarily reflect the neighborhood's support for the party.
_______________________
___________
My comments:
The accusatory finger would not point at the SSNP.
You can remember history the way you want. But, at the end of May and the
beginning of June 1976, it wasn't a bunch of ragtag citizens carrying shovels
and shotguns that sliced through the SSNP and the National Movement lines.
Tanks with the insignia of the Syrian Arab Republic did.
_________________________
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<<
Ghassan Writes:
=============
I have never had any trouble standing for anything the SSNP has done. I know
for a fact that the party members have the highest of ethics. If you observed
our positions from the earlier days of the war, you would have known that we
initially decided not get into the fighting because it simply wasn't our fight.
When we got in, it was reluctantly and to stop the grand separatist design. Our
ferocity demonstrated our determination to never allow a repeat of the purges
that happened in the late 40's and early 50's. Our members' doors were kicked
down and they were shot where they sat. We saw that coming, and we had to move.
Joseph Responds:
==============
The evidence in Lebanon does not support a planned action against the left, on
the part of the right. More like the other way around, given
the progress of the war during those first few months. The SSNP was
part of that planning, and the Koura front opened up on day 1.>>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comments:
There was evidence of a separatist plan and a desire to consolidate the
Christian areas under the Kataeb flag. The Ahrar missed the signs and got
decimated. Can you imagine what would have happened to the SSNP had it decided
not to act?
___________________________
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<<<
I did not catch anyone. The guy turned himself in. He was not
political, and he was lured in with the promise of money. He would have been
the perfect delivery man. Non-suspicious, and knows some of the people at
Madfoun. I did not claim that his guilt went away. There is no doubt though
where the car was booby-trapped at. I am giving you the facts here. As for this
being the work of rogue elements, that's possible given the number of SSNP
factions at the time (is the party united today?). FYI: many parties used car
bombs, despite having access to artillery. Some even their own areas.>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comment:
The party has been unified. The only splinter group that remains is that of Mr.
AbdulMassih.
____________________________
You write:
<<<<<<<<<<<< Yes, one can get lost looking at Lebanon through a sectarian lens.
The best guarantee against the recurrence of sectarian violence is to have
constitutional protection against religious dominance (that's what I said by
the way, and not guaranteeing small sects equal representation). One person,
one vote is what I'm advocating, but not at the expense of minorities.
Permanent peace will only come when people stop fearing and misunderstanding
each other. I don't want this post (or the others) to be misunderstood as an
attack on the Orthodox, as it is not. It is about the weirdness of Lebanese
politics and how a non-secular party, can end up with a majority, coming from a
Lebanese minority. The SSNP membership does not represent the Orthodox, and the
majority of Orthodox are not SSNP. This is the way it is in Lebanon. When
someone like you, who otherwise presents and factual posts, writes that I am
associated with the LF, it's Lebanese politics as usual. The fact is that you
don't know what my political affiliation is, and just because I defended the
LF's right to defend itself, and pointed the facts should not paint me
politically in a particular color. What ever happened to telling it exactly
like it is?>>>>>>>>>>>>
___________
My comments:
I'm all for that Joseph. Let's tell it like it is.
No, I don't know if you have any affiliation to any political entity. Unlike
me, you haven't identified yourself as a member or supporter of any known
organization. You certainly don't have to. You did tell me however that you
consider yourself on the "other side." On 12/24, with your very nice Christmas
wish, you wrote: " You will also be pleasently surprised that some of us on the
other side are well qualified to contribute as well. :-)" You also said that
you grew up with those who manned LF position in Batroun. Given that and after
reading some of the many posts you wrote in the past year or so, I can say that
I have an idea about what you believe is worth defending. I still hope that
soon we can say that we are on the same side. I think that you have respect for
the SSNP, but you resent the moral high ground that its members try to take
when discussing issues. I'm here to tell you that we are as human as anybody
else.
jose...@hotmail.com
inclusion of everyone, religion or not. If a party claims to be
secular, it cannot be selective. This is a very simple concept. I'm
also calling for re-adjusting for the 21st century.
In article <Pine.OSF.4.10.9906101501000.31067-
100...@alcor.concordia.ca>,
Basil Keilani <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
> Joseph, I agree that the term Zionist dream is preferrable to
the
> Jewish dream, however it was a Jewish dream to return to what they
called
--
Golani M Golani
Aris2chat wrote:
> Very nicely put.
How about spending a night with him Liza, his wife kicked him out yesterday..this
explain his long time on the net.
Basil Keilani
Ghassan, actually I am in touch with the local SSNP, they are
quite diverse. Some come from Beirut, some from the South, some from the
Koura area. So many of, Mount Lebanon, and the leadership is quite
diverse, i.e., coming from different backgrounds. Times have changed.
Koura has a strong support for the SSNP, but it is not the only area, and
the only part of the population. Joseph said Hrawi was a communist, yes,
we know there were Maronite Communists, like Nassif Al Matani, who was
rumoured to have been killed in 1958. We know the Communists have a
diverse membership, but the religious and the spiritual are not welcome
among them, but they are welcome among the SSNP, and the bourgeoisie are
expected to repudiated themselves in a certain sense.
There is the desire to make the SSNP appear sectarian and having
the majority come from one group, which actually fits the right wing and
some Left wing parties, but not the SSNP in 1999, for sure. Actually, the
SSNP speaks to those Arabs in the region who believe in religious
tolerance, religious pluralism, economic fairness, the family, and
cherishing our collective history. They are not for pitting brother
against brother in this region. They want cooperation, people working
together. We should not be having religious and class divisions, but
rather religious and class cooperation.
Basil
Basil Keilani
Correction, Nassif Al Matani was alleged to have been killed by
the Chamoun government. In the 1958 fighting, the SSNP as I know it
fought with the Chamoun government against the Nasserists, and this has
not been brought up. It did not view itself synonymous with the Marxist
and Nasserist groups. It was also falsely said that the majority come
from the sect of the founder. This might have been true in the Lebanon at
one point (not sure about that) but not in Syria, and it is certainly far
from true today.
We know that the members in Syria were quite diverse, it was a popular
party. Hafez Al Assad's wife's relatives did not want her to marry him
initially, they were Qawmi, and he was Ba'ath. This post is not to
antagonize those who have had relatives who served in the "right wing" or
Joseph Mouhanna, just a friendly exchange. One can have a difference of
opinion. You do know that Ali Qanso, Hafez's wife are quite notable
examples where your idea of the membership does not fit. I am pleased
they are no longer banned in the Syrian Arab Republic. That means they
can function in Lebanon and Syria. I think they are legal in Jordan as
well. They had a conference some years ago in Jordan. I don't know their
status there exactly. The party is not simply the sum of its Lebanese
members, we must remind people.
Respectfuly Yours,
Basil
Michel Najem
>
>
> Actually, it is not quite accurate to put the SSNP with the other
>Leftist parties in any direct fashion. The SSNP is not oppose to
>capitalism, except the Neo-Liberal Economic Capitalism of the United
>States just as they are opposed to the Communist-Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist
>models and many Leftists who are more on the extreme Left are moving in
>that direction. That would make them, perhaps, Left Centre.
Tell me what were they when they took money from Britian ? What ar they when
they
take money form a dictatorship these days?
> As far as recruiting from different sects, this is more
>representative of the SSNP than any party in the Lebanon.
That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why they joined
Hizballah
a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet rabkum.
>As Zawba'a said, the membership is 50% Christian. That means it has a
>large component that is Muslim. No other party comes close to that kind
>of inclusiveness, I beg your pardon.
Woww we have statistics on SCL, we have percentages and numbers, amazing fi
tatawur. Can anyone prove this 50% number iza ma fi iz3aj ya3ne.
> I have been impressed by the
>diversity. Also, in the leadership you hear from the names that they come
>from many different backgrounds. The PSP used to have more diverse
>membership when Kamal Jumblatt was alive.
EH maybe that is why with the diversity you are talking about they were able
to kill people from all sides. SSNP killed Maronite in the north and all over
Lebanon.
SSNP killed sunni Muslims in Tripoli and Shiaa in Beirut,...
As for PSP shu bado yi7ki la yi7ki el wa7ad.
Diversity in killings and they say they are above everybody. If some people
forget
or other try to paint a nice picture about SSNP, be aware we don't forget
killers.
>Basil
Michel
"LEBANON IS FOR LEBANESE"
Nahla Osseiran
You are right, but the post was addressed to you.
>Some of us have come here with certain beliefs, but are flexible enough to
>learn and expand our horizon.
Hopefully! :)
>Nahla, you're limiting your vision here to the leftist parties.
I was actually trying to limit my argument to parties with Trans-national
ideologies , not my vision. :)
> There are other center or right-of-center parties that heavily recruit
from
>all sects. The Ahrar had a mixed parliamentary representation. The
>National Block (Eddeh) had a large following among all sects. Even on
>the leftist side, the PSP claimed to be open to all (but was controlled
>by Jumblat), the Akkar/North block had deupties from all religions.
You are talking here about local Lebanese politics, and I am sure that you
are aware of the fact that those local parties' "ideologies" change with the
"tides".
>They all accepted people who were and remain believers. You're limiting
>your scope in here, and while Hawi was born Christian, he is a
>communist, meaning that he does not believe in religion.
Again see the above for my limited scope. By saying that George Hawi, (born
Christian) does not believe in neither God nor religion, because he is a
communist and is in the communist party, you are proving my point that this
party cannot be sectarian.
> I was respoding to Zawabaa who implied (at least I believe that he did),
that
>by becoming an SSNP member, one is assumed to have abandoned his/her
>traditional religious beliefs.
What I understood from Ghassan's 'implication', is that when one joins the
party the 'spoon-fed' fanaticism or prejudices or prejudgments, call it
what you want, should be left behind, not the religious belief itself. Of
course, interpretations of certain things are apt to be subjective.
>> Looking back at history, has the above statement been proven wrong?You
>> might want to answer this question, before implying the 'sectarianism of
>> the SSNP.
>It is the exclusion of everything that seems to be "Jewish" which
>allows me to imply the sectarianism of the SSNP.
Let us try and look at it from a different angle. You as a non-Jew, would
you be 'included' by the Jews? I think it is as simple as that.
So please, don't tell me that the SSNP is sectarian, for you cannot be
open-minded and open-hearted towards people who look down on you because
they believe that they are "the chosen people". You cannot 'include' people
who 'exclude' you.
>I've gone over this point many times in the past with SSNP members, but to
>no avail. The usual argument is that it's about Zionism and not Judaism.
I don't see any difference, though. You cannot be a Zionist if you are not a
Jew. Very simple.
>If that's what the SSNP means, then that's what the SSNP should put on its
>web site, instead of the "Jewish dream". If the SSNP is not inclusive of
>all sects, then by definition, it is sectarian.
Wrong again. See the above. This is not a logical equation:
Anything that walks on 4 legs is a dog (false premise)
A cat walks on 4 legs
Hence, a cat is a dog. (logical conclusion but not valid )
The conclusion is logical but not valid, and so is your conclusion.
>See the "rooted in their religion" quote. It's on http://www.ssnp.com
Just like you, I do visit this site. But thank you anyway:)
>The SSNP was doing well in here, until it said "rooted in their
>religion". From that point on, it does not matter how you position
>Zionist versus non-Zionist, the damage is already done.
Damage to whom?
> I believe that I've mentioned this to you in the past, and you tried
telling me >that the SSNP makes a clear distinction between Judaism and
Zionism. If that >is the case, then the web site needs to reflect it.
I don't recall having had such a discussion with anyone on SCL. This is my
Premiere :) regarding the SSNP.
>Actually Zionism was born in 19th century Europe. It had very little
>support among the Jewish populations who lived in Europe. It got its
>biggest boost as a result of European anti-Judaism. This is not a
>license to steal land from the Palestinians though.
Agreed!
>Getting stuck in the past will not help resolve the problems of the
>present.
Joseph, I like your 'getting stuck in the past' statement. Which past? Are
you trying to say that our 'dispute' with the Zionist is past.
> The present situation is simple
Pardon my naďveté, but I don't see where the simplicity lies. Please
enlighten me.
>(but solutions are verycomplex): Post world war II, Palestinians were
kicked >out of their homes by European Jews, Israel was formed, since then,
Israel >has been at war with the Arabs (all or some),
[..................]
>far too comples to pin on a single event), Lebanon has had part of its
>land occupied by Isreal (and the other part by Syria). No one will ever
>arrive at a solution unless the slate is wiped clean.
>It's good to know the area's history and past, but not to the detriment of
the >future generations. How many generations of poor and uneducated
>Palestinians do we want to see grow up in refugee camps? how many more
>lives should be lost just to prove a point?
We, and I mean Lebanon and the Lebanese, are still in the *present* where
this *situation* is concerned, ya Joseph. Don't talk to me about history and
the *past* when more that half of the South is still under Israeli
occupation. And to those who want to add their salt and pepper, this
discussion here is about Israel and Zionism !
Nahla
Nahla Osseiran
You are right, but the post was addressed to you.
>Some of us have come here with certain beliefs, but are flexible enough to
>learn and expand our horizon.
Hopefully! :)
>Nahla, you're limiting your vision here to the leftist parties.
I was actually trying to limit my argument to parties with Trans-national
ideologies , not my vision. :)
> There are other center or right-of-center parties that heavily recruit
from
>all sects. The Ahrar had a mixed parliamentary representation. The
>National Block (Eddeh) had a large following among all sects. Even on
>the leftist side, the PSP claimed to be open to all (but was controlled
>by Jumblat), the Akkar/North block had deupties from all religions.
You are talking here about local Lebanese politics, and I am sure that you
are aware of the fact that those local parties' "ideologies" change with the
"tides".
>They all accepted people who were and remain believers. You're limiting
>your scope in here, and while Hawi was born Christian, he is a
>communist, meaning that he does not believe in religion.
Again see the above for my limited scope. By saying that George Hawi, (born
Christian) does not believe in neither God nor religion, because he is a
communist and is in the communist party, you are proving my point that this
party cannot be sectarian.
> I was respoding to Zawabaa who implied (at least I believe that he did),
that
>by becoming an SSNP member, one is assumed to have abandoned his/her
>traditional religious beliefs.
What I understood from Ghassan's 'implication', is that when one joins the
party the 'spoon-fed' fanaticism or prejudices or prejudgments, call it
what you want, should be left behind, not the religious belief itself. Of
course, interpretations of certain things are apt to be subjective.
>> Looking back at history, has the above statement been proven wrong?You
>> might want to answer this question, before implying the 'sectarianism of
>> the SSNP.
>It is the exclusion of everything that seems to be "Jewish" which
>allows me to imply the sectarianism of the SSNP.
Let us try and look at it from a different angle. You as a non-Jew, would
you be 'included' by the Jews? I think it is as simple as that.
So please, don't tell me that the SSNP is sectarian, for you cannot be
open-minded and open-hearted towards people who look down on you because
they believe that they are "the chosen people". You cannot 'include' people
who 'exclude' you.
>I've gone over this point many times in the past with SSNP members, but to
>no avail. The usual argument is that it's about Zionism and not Judaism.
I don't see any difference, though. You cannot be a Zionist if you are not a
Jew. Very simple.
>If that's what the SSNP means, then that's what the SSNP should put on its
>web site, instead of the "Jewish dream". If the SSNP is not inclusive of
>all sects, then by definition, it is sectarian.
Wrong again. See the above. This is not a logical equation:
Anything that walks on 4 legs is a dog (false premise)
A cat walks on 4 legs
Hence, a cat is a dog. (logical conclusion but not valid )
The conclusion is logical but not valid, and so is your conclusion.
>See the "rooted in their religion" quote. It's on http://www.ssnp.com
Just like you, I do visit this site. But thank you anyway:)
>The SSNP was doing well in here, until it said "rooted in their
>religion". From that point on, it does not matter how you position
>Zionist versus non-Zionist, the damage is already done.
Damage to whom?
> I believe that I've mentioned this to you in the past, and you tried
telling me >that the SSNP makes a clear distinction between Judaism and
Zionism. If that >is the case, then the web site needs to reflect it.
I don't recall having had such a discussion with anyone on SCL. This is my
Premiere :) regarding the SSNP.
>Actually Zionism was born in 19th century Europe. It had very little
>support among the Jewish populations who lived in Europe. It got its
>biggest boost as a result of European anti-Judaism. This is not a
>license to steal land from the Palestinians though.
Agreed!
>Getting stuck in the past will not help resolve the problems of the
>present.
Joseph, I like your 'getting stuck in the past' statement. Which past? Are
you trying to say that our 'dispute' with the Zionist is past.
> The present situation is simple
Pardon my naďveté, but I don't see where the simplicity lies. Please
enlighten me.
>(but solutions are verycomplex): Post world war II, Palestinians were
kicked >out of their homes by European Jews, Israel was formed, since then,
Israel >has been at war with the Arabs (all or some),
[..................]
>far too comples to pin on a single event), Lebanon has had part of its
>land occupied by Isreal (and the other part by Syria). No one will ever
>arrive at a solution unless the slate is wiped clean.
>It's good to know the area's history and past, but not to the detriment of
the >future generations. How many generations of poor and uneducated
>Palestinians do we want to see grow up in refugee camps? how many more
>lives should be lost just to prove a point?
We, and I mean Lebanon and the Lebanese, are still in the *present* where
Maan M. Hamze
Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>"On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article , Basil stated:"
>
>That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why they
joined
>Hizballah
>a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet rabkum.
>
Comparing Al-Marada to Party of Gos is like comparing ornages to apples.
Party of God has strong leanings to a Lebanese Democracy and it is NOT a one
sect party as you state. When you understand that Islamic culture is not a
secterian culture you'll see the difference between the brigands of
Al-Marada and the constituency of the Party of God.
>>As Zawba'a said, the membership is 50% Christian. That means it has a
>>large component that is Muslim. No other party comes close to that kind
>>of inclusiveness, I beg your pardon.
>
>Woww we have statistics on SCL, we have percentages and numbers, amazing fi
>tatawur. Can anyone prove this 50% number iza ma fi iz3aj ya3ne.
>
SSNP is a non-secterian entity any way you look at it. It has Christians
and Moslems and its ideology oposes the secterian exclusivism of that bunch
of losers called the Lebanese Forces and Co.
>> I have been impressed by the
>>diversity. Also, in the leadership you hear from the names that they come
>>from many different backgrounds. The PSP used to have more diverse
>>membership when Kamal Jumblatt was alive.
>
>
>EH maybe that is why with the diversity you are talking about they were
able
>to kill people from all sides. SSNP killed Maronite in the north and all
over
>Lebanon.
>SSNP killed sunni Muslims in Tripoli and Shiaa in Beirut,...
>As for PSP shu bado yi7ki la yi7ki el wa7ad.
>Diversity in killings and they say they are above everybody. If some people
>forget
>or other try to paint a nice picture about SSNP, be aware we don't forget
>killers.
Secterian mentality such as yours only breed Secterian thinking. You only
see the Secterian side of things. You only label things from a secterian
side. The only killers in Lebanon are those who started the war and whose
legacy today are represented by the brigands of Lebanese Forces and Co.
Their heritage of secterian misery has been defeated once and for all and
their leaders are either suspect or are in jail. The choice in Lebanon is
whether you want to go beyond that bankrupt politics of yours and
participate in the making of Lebanon or to simply alienate yourself and
spread that secterian non-sense of yours on SCL. From all appearances you
have elected the former case.
>
>>Basil
>
>
>Michel
>
>"LEBANON IS FOR LEBANESE"
>
Exactly, and the Lebanese are against that secterian politics of misery
propounded by LF and Co. Follow your own advice and practice that Lebanese
for Lebanese slogan of yours.
Maan
Arz
Maan M. Hamze
idiots.
Maan
Arz wrote in message ...
Michel Najem
"Maan stated:"
>
>
>Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>>"On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article , Basil stated:"
>
>>
>>That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why they
>joined
>>Hizballah
>>a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet rabkum.
>>
Akid if you decide to look at it as Maronite party and Shiaa party. For sure
there is a difference.
>Party of God has strong leanings to a Lebanese Democracy and it is NOT a one
>sect party as you state.
NOT a one sect party?? Ouf since when Maronites , Sunni, Greeck Orthodox,
ATHEIST,... joined Party fo God. Ya Maan, maybe you should inform how the Party
that is 100% Shiaa tunred to a "NOT a one sect part" ?
When you understand that Islamic culture is not a
>secterian culture you'll see the difference between the brigands of
>Al-Marada and the constituency of the Party of God.
>
I am not here to talk about Islamic religion and its secterian or non sectrerian
culture. I can debate you hundred years ont his one. The point that I was trying
to make is SSNP is no better than any so called secterian party.
>>>As Zawba'a said, the membership is 50% Christian. That means it has a
>>>large component that is Muslim. No other party comes close to that kind
>>>of inclusiveness, I beg your pardon.
>>
>>Woww we have statistics on SCL, we have percentages and numbers, amazing fi
>>tatawur. Can anyone prove this 50% number iza ma fi iz3aj ya3ne.
>>
>SSNP is a non-secterian entity any way you look at it. It has Christians
>and Moslems and its ideology oposes the secterian exclusivism of that bunch
>of losers called the Lebanese Forces and Co.
>
It is to note Mr. Maan that Muslims were members of the LEbanese Forces and I
can guarantee you that. The problem is a bunch of losers are trying to portray
the SSNP as an angel party.
>>> I have been impressed by the
>>>diversity. Also, in the leadership you hear from the names that they come
>>>from many different backgrounds. The PSP used to have more diverse
>>>membership when Kamal Jumblatt was alive.
>>
>>
>>EH maybe that is why with the diversity you are talking about they were
>able
>>to kill people from all sides. SSNP killed Maronite in the north and all
>over
>>Lebanon.
>>SSNP killed sunni Muslims in Tripoli and Shiaa in Beirut,...
>>As for PSP shu bado yi7ki la yi7ki el wa7ad.
>>Diversity in killings and they say they are above everybody. If some people
>>forget
>>or other try to paint a nice picture about SSNP, be aware we don't forget
>>killers.
>
>Secterian mentality such as yours only breed Secterian thinking. You only
>see the Secterian side of things. You only label things from a secterian
>side.
I don't see from one side, I am only stating facts.
>The only killers in Lebanon are those who started the war and whose
>legacy today are represented by the brigands of Lebanese Forces and Co.
We know exactly who started the war. By the way, for your own information,
Lebanese Forces didn't exist in 75.
>Their heritage of secterian misery has been defeated once and for all and
>their leaders are either suspect or are in jail.
Only the free are in jails these days, the rest are puppets.
> The choice in Lebanon is
>whether you want to go beyond that bankrupt politics of yours and
>participate in the making of Lebanon or to simply alienate yourself and
>spread that secterian non-sense of yours on SCL. From all appearances you
>have elected the former case.
Again, I have to point out for you that without the LF you wouldn't have a Taef
accord. It was the LF who gave the chance to rebulid Lebanon. The problem is
your likes who never want to step out from the war mentality. It is your likes
who put a knife in the back of fellow Lebanese in peace time.
>>>Basil
>>
>>
>>Michel
>>
>>"LEBANON IS FOR LEBANESE"
>>
>Exactly, and the Lebanese are against that secterian politics of misery
>propounded by LF and Co. Follow your own advice and practice that Lebanese
>for Lebanese slogan of yours.
LF never had a secterian policy.
>Maan
Nahla Osseiran
> Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> "On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article
> That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why they
> joined Hizballah a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet rabkum.
Can anyone explain who the 'marada' are? Is it a political party? If yes,
what is their ideology? I am interested to add it to my study on local
Lebanese parties.
Thank you,
Nahla
Ramzi Stephan
when
>they
>take money form a dictatorship these days?
FYI it was not Britain ; it was FORMOSA .
And if you doubt this information, you may check with Antoine Azouri ( alias
Abu Ahmad ) .
>>>
>Woww we have statistics on SCL, we have percentages and numbers, amazing fi
>tatawur. Can anyone prove this 50% number iza ma fi iz3aj ya3ne.
You are amazed ? Really amazing is your amazement. Once you accuse the SSNP
of being predominantly of one sect ( Orthodox ) . If this is true, then the
ratio approaches the 100 %, not only 50% ! Unless you do not consider the
Orthodox to be under the Christian umbrella .
Basil Keilani
Michel, if you do not mind, without getting you upset, for my
eyes, can you keep it to paragraphs, and do not get so excited, habibi.
We can have a difference of opinion. And I am not allowed to be rude to
you:) So give me some humour, though it may be hard.
You throw the label of killers at the SSNP. I wish to remind you
plenty of Lebanese Christians aim that at the LF, they represents only one
of the voices of the various Christian-dominated parties. It specifically
caters to Christians, thus it is more exclusive, and mostly a specific
Christian group.
The SSNP does not cater to one sect. It caters to all groups who
belong to the fertile crescent. Ali Qanso is not from the Koura.
There are many members from Bkfaya and you admitted that before. That is
not the Koura. Is Bkfaya's population mostly Orthodox? No. Hafez Al
Assad's wife's relatives were in the SSNP, and that is not the Koura area.
I have met so many SSNP Muslims. Many also come from Beirut.
I have not seen even one LF Muslim. Why? But don't you say Lebanon for
the Lebanese? I see only the Christians in the LF, and for that matter one
group. A friend from Tripoli said of all the parties he respects, it is
the SSNP. He is a Lebanese Muslim. He does not respect the other groups
as much. He feels they welcome all. How welcome are Muslism in the LF?
Basil
Golani M Golani
Basil Keilani wrote:
> Michel, if you do not mind, without getting you upset,
be careful do not make him upset because he will kick you out of his Maronite
church.
Basil Keilani
On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 jose...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I am not after political correctness here. Secularism is about
> inclusion of everyone, religion or not. If a party claims to be
> secular, it cannot be selective. This is a very simple concept. I'm
> also calling for re-adjusting for the 21st century.
>
>
I may argue, also certain religious views, entail including all
the human beings, though there may be disagreements. For example, the
idea of Christ helping the Canaanite woman of Tyre, or Mohammed helping
the Jewish woman who was ill. But I know your point.
I do feel that many secular groups have not been quite inclusive
of the religious, and undemocratic in some ways. Certain parents want to
educate their children in ethics, Christianity or Islam. Most secular
regimes have not made room for that, in the public school system.
As far as being inclusive, the SSNP is very inclusive. It
includes those who are not religious at all, and those who are religious
and spiritual. A person who is spiritual has a place and those who are
not. It does care for the mental needs of the people, for it is a Social
Party, Communitarian Party and believes in ethics and values, though, of
course, some went astray.
Joseph, a question for you. How in place will a person who is
religious or spiritual feel in the Lebanese Communist Party? Very out of
place. It may take people born from all sects by birth, but not the
spiritual ones. The sectarian right wing, takes both, but cater heavily
to the Christians, which is their weakness. The SSNP does not have the
weakness of the Communists or the Right Wing, in that aspect. The SSNP
also does have a clear view on religion, the Right Wing is divided on
that. That is another strength of the SSNP. Does it require a lot of
work? Yes.
Basil
Basil Keilani
Abou Zouz, Hezbollah, primarily does have Shia in their grouping,
but the SSNP does not agree with their ideological religious views, but
they do agree with them fighting the Israeli occupation. Most Lebanese
think so. The Lebanese, for the most part, are behind Hezbollah fighting
occupation, though they may not agree with their ideology, and this
applies to Lebanese of all backgrounds, you have noticed. Also, Hezbollah
has called on people of all backgrounds and groups in Lebanon to join them
in the struggle, the Marada did not, as I understand it. That is the
difference.
Basil
Please Ma'an, mon frere, do not call anyone an idiot.....
A3ssabak:) You have to be a bit more civil:) We don't want
to go back SCL world war II:)
Rabih Jabbour
mistake :)
Rabih
Rabih Jabbour
>
> > Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > "On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article
>
> > That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why they
> > joined Hizballah a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet rabkum.
>
> Can anyone explain who the 'marada' are? Is it a political party? If yes,
> what is their ideology? I am interested to add it to my study on local
> Lebanese parties.
Al Marda, are a militia that was formed by the late Tony S. Frangieh in
Zgharta. It was the military protector of the caza Zgharta. It consist of
member s manily from Zgharta and its municiplities( Zgharta Alzawyeh or al
mizare3 as ythey used to them). They use to be with the Lebanese front
before the confrontation between late S. Frangieh and other member of the
Lebanese fronts which resulted in assination of Tony frangieh and an
alienation of most of the maronites of zgharta from the Lebanese front
controlled areas. Al marda power monuted during the early eighties when
the relation between late Sulieman Frangieh and Hafez Assad was at its
best. Their control reached from Zgahtra to Albatroun except most parts of
Alkoura. Their fail attempt to invade the rest of Alkoura in 1985 is
considered, IMO, as the loosing grip of power in other parts of
Alkoura.After taef agreement and dimilitrization of all militia, Sulieman
Frangieh Junior started to building them as a politcal party. I do not if
they still have arms of not, all i know that they were feared by a lot of
people in the north becuase of their promptness for fighting.
I hope this may help
Rabih
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nahla
>
>
>
>
Arz
you resort to name-calling. That's ok, I understand. I'm an idiot and so
are the millions of Lebanese that think like me. You and your 10 friends
are not idiots. Boy, what kind of world do you live in, dude?
Maan M. Hamze <mmh...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:#AAmpPDt#GA.310@cpmsnbbsa05...
> I do not write for you! You are simply an idiot and I do not write for
> idiots.
> Maan
>
> Arz wrote in message ...
> >Please elaborate for all those who don't understand.
> >
> >
> >> Comparing Al-Marada to Party of Gos is like comparing ornages to
apples.
> >> Party of God has strong leanings to a Lebanese Democracy and it is NOT
a
> >one
> >> sect party as you state. When you understand that Islamic culture is
Arz
support Hizballah? Is this a propoganda ploy or something? You answered
the question yourself. The Marada and others did not join them because they
don't support them. You want to talk about the South? My uncle is from
Jezzine village and I know what Hizballah does on the ground there and the
extent of their support. Their sole purpose is to carry out Syria and
Iran's agenda. Lebanese? Hardly. They don't even own a Lebanese flag.
Basil Keilani <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.10.990611...@alcor.concordia.ca...
Arz
They have been pro-Syrian most of their existence.
Nahla Osseiran <noss...@standardmail.at> wrote in message
news:7jrrb3$qlb$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net...
>
> > Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > "On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article
>
> > That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why they
> > joined Hizballah a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet rabkum.
>
> Can anyone explain who the 'marada' are? Is it a political party? If yes,
> what is their ideology? I am interested to add it to my study on local
> Lebanese parties.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nahla
>
>
Arz
is. Politics and the war, of course, changed many alliances and this also
happened to them. Mostly, it was the assasination of Tony Franjieh that
made them totally tilt towards Syria. But do not misunderstand that the
politics of their rank and file are for a free and independent Lebanese
nation although their leadership aligns itself with Syria, perhaps to
protect the Zgharta enclave. This is to note the Zgharta enclave hardly had
any foreign military presence all throughout their history. Is it pro-Arab?
As I said previously, the rank and file are not pro-Arab however the
leadership may be politically pro-Arab depending on which way the wind
blows.
Nahla Osseiran <noss...@standardmail.at> wrote in message
news:7js4pe$1v5$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net...
> Thank you Arz! When you say that they have been pro-Syrian, do you mean
that
> their policy is pro-Arab?
>
> Nahla
>
>
> Arz <Arz_l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ayg83.9$lk3...@news.megsinet.net...
Rabih Jabbour
> Thank you very much Rabih :). This information is actually very helpful. In
> other words they were(?) not a political party, but just a militia trained
> to fight (whom?). Can you tell me that, too, please ? :)
As far as i know, they were made to protect certain area, i.e:Zgarta. As
far as specific rivals that evolve as did for the rest of the militias in
Lebanon. They start to protect Zgharta from Palstinias attacking from
tripole and its vacinity. then they drove most of the Lebanese front
members and sympathics awya from their area of control,and things chaneg
with time. It all depended on the political affiliation of the Late
Sulieman frangieh.
Rabih
>
> Regards,
> Nahla
>
> Rabih Jabbour <g...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in message
> news:Pine.HPX.4.10.99061...@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU...
> > On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Nahla Osseiran wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > "On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article
> > >
> > > > That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why
> they
> > > > joined Hizballah a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet
> rabkum.
> > >
> > > Can anyone explain who the 'marada' are? Is it a political party? If
> yes,
> > > what is their ideology? I am interested to add it to my study on local
> > > Lebanese parties.
> >
Rabih Jabbour
> They are a party that was headed by former President Sulaymen Franjieh.
> They have been pro-Syrian most of their existence.
Ya Arz, they were not pro-Syrian all the time. When AOun was in Power
Al-marda were divided inton pro-syrian and con-syrian in other words,
Sulieman Junior had pro-syrian rally for him and Robert his uncle has
the
p prooun
standing for him.At that clashes used to occur everyday and
it
was the final decision whihc was made in Syria for Robert Frangieh to
be
out of the political game and to save Zgharat from real and great
danger.
Rabih
>
>
> Nahla Osseiran <noss...@standardmail.at> wrote in message
> news:7jrrb3$qlb$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net...
> >
> > > Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > "On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article
> >
> > > That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why they
> > > joined Hizballah a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet rabkum.
> >
> > Can anyone explain who the 'marada' are? Is it a political party? If yes,
> > what is their ideology? I am interested to add it to my study on local
> > Lebanese parties.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Nahla
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Arz
another post, if you'd like, in this same thread.
Rabih Jabbour <g...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.HPX.4.10.990611...@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU...
Arz
Arz <Arz_l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Fgk83.60$lk3...@news.megsinet.net...
charlie
war.
But the doctrines:
1. Some of Turkey .. ( A war against a NATO ally)
2. Some of Iran.. (Another 8 years of bloodshed)
3. Irak ( i don't think Saddam or his son will be happy about it )
4. Syria and Lebanon.. Thats easy now. I wonder why don't you just go ahead
and do it.
This way Syria is not an occupier anymore. But we shall fight that very
severly. A civil war again!
5. Jordan. (another kuwait for Ameirca)
6. Even Cyprus is divided.
7. Israel.. My God in a thousand years based on your past skills.
Man how can you unify all these countries. Wake up man!
Zawbaa <zaw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990602232702...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> This is a response to a few recent articles Joseph posted. Some of his
> original texts have been copied below.
> ______________________
Nahla Osseiran
other words they were(?) not a political party, but just a militia trained
to fight (whom?). Can you tell me that, too, please ? :)
Regards,
Nahla
Rabih Jabbour <g...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.HPX.4.10.99061...@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU...
> On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Nahla Osseiran wrote:
>
> >
> > > Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > "On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article
> >
> > > That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why
they
> > > joined Hizballah a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet
rabkum.
> >
> > Can anyone explain who the 'marada' are? Is it a political party? If
yes,
> > what is their ideology? I am interested to add it to my study on local
> > Lebanese parties.
>
Nahla Osseiran
their policy is pro-Arab?
Nahla
Arz <Arz_l...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ayg83.9$lk3...@news.megsinet.net...
> They are a party that was headed by former President Sulaymen Franjieh.
> They have been pro-Syrian most of their existence.
>
>
> Nahla Osseiran <noss...@standardmail.at> wrote in message
> news:7jrrb3$qlb$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net...
> >
> > > Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > "On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article
> >
> > > That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is why
they
> > > joined Hizballah a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet
rabkum.
> >
> > Can anyone explain who the 'marada' are? Is it a political party? If
yes,
> > what is their ideology? I am interested to add it to my study on local
> > Lebanese parties.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Nahla
> >
> >
>
>
Abou Zouz
established themselves in the mountains of North Lebanon for deffence
purposes thru out the Ottoman empire's blokade of their area up to recent
past. They were [mutamarad] therefore the word Marada, and they cover more
than just Zghorta although it's their capital today...
--
+++ Loubnan, La youkhar wala youfna +++
Rabih Jabbour <g...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.HPX.4.10.990611...@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU...
> On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Nahla Osseiran wrote:
>
> > Thank you very much Rabih :). This information is actually very helpful.
In
> > other words they were(?) not a political party, but just a militia
trained
> > to fight (whom?). Can you tell me that, too, please ? :)
>
> As far as i know, they were made to protect certain area, i.e:Zgarta. As
> far as specific rivals that evolve as did for the rest of the militias in
> Lebanon. They start to protect Zgharta from Palstinias attacking from
> tripole and its vacinity. then they drove most of the Lebanese front
> members and sympathics awya from their area of control,and things chaneg
> with time. It all depended on the political affiliation of the Late
> Sulieman frangieh.
> Rabih
>
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nahla
> >
> > Rabih Jabbour <g...@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.HPX.4.10.99061...@pavo.U.Arizona.EDU...
> > > On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Nahla Osseiran wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Michel Najem wrote in message <7jqhbq$2n...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > > > > "On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:46:14 -0400, in article
> > > >
> > > > > That is why they attacked the marada, a one sect party. That is
why
> > they
> > > > > joined Hizballah a one sect party,... wlik stop the joke bihyet
> > rabkum.
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone explain who the 'marada' are? Is it a political party? If
> > yes,
> > > > what is their ideology? I am interested to add it to my study on
local
> > > > Lebanese parties.
> > >
Golani M Golani
Arz wrote:
> My uncle is from
> Jezzine village
I hope they will execute him..
> and I know what Hizballah does on the ground there and the
> extent of their support. Their sole purpose is to carry out Syria and
> Iran's agenda. Lebanese? Hardly. They don't even own a Lebanese flag.
>
tfuh 3alaik ya kalb, these heroes were dying for Lebanon's liberty and her dog
like you doubt their intention?? you are sub lebanese Christian and will never
understand the word "patriotism"
Michel Najem
"Ramzi stated:">>Tell me what were they when they took money from Britian ? What ar they
>when
>>they
>>take money form a dictatorship these days?
>
>FYI it was not Britain ; it was FORMOSA .
>And if you doubt this information, you may check with Antoine Azouri ( alias
>Abu Ahmad ) .
It was Britain go and check SSNP and you will find out.
>>>>
>>Woww we have statistics on SCL, we have percentages and numbers, amazing fi
>>tatawur. Can anyone prove this 50% number iza ma fi iz3aj ya3ne.
>
>You are amazed ? Really amazing is your amazement. Once you accuse the SSNP
>of being predominantly of one sect ( Orthodox ) . If this is true, then the
>ratio approaches the 100 %, not only 50% ! Unless you do not consider the
>Orthodox to be under the Christian umbrella .
Accusing something and putting down numbers is something else. Anyway, I wasn't
accusing at all.
Michel Najem
<Pine.OSF.4.10.99061...@alcor.concordia.ca>, Basil stated:"
>
>
> Michel, if you do not mind, without getting you upset, for my
>eyes, can you keep it to paragraphs, and do not get so excited, habibi.
>We can have a difference of opinion. And I am not allowed to be rude to
>you:) So give me some humour, though it may be hard.
Give you humor for what? I am not here to please you or make your life easy.
When you post something wrong, I will reply to it the way I want to, with or
without humor.
> You throw the label of killers at the SSNP. I wish to remind you
>plenty of Lebanese Christians aim that at the LF, they represents only one
>of the voices of the various Christian-dominated parties. It specifically
>caters to Christians, thus it is more exclusive, and mostly a specific
>Christian group.
I am not throwing the labels of killers on SNP, they are. How about if you go
back and dig for one example what happened in koura on August 12-13 1984 , it
was a thursday. I will give you the outcome of those 2 days, 15 dead and 70
wounded. It is to note, during the battles between the SSNP and Marada, the SSNP
members dismantle and stole the equipment of the broadcasting TV Station in
Fay3. It is to not that Minister of Media at that time, Joseph Skaf declared:"
Those equipment are for teh government and must be returned." They never
returned them.
The LF is one of the major party that represents the Christians with a LEbanese
agenda, what is wrong with that? And who told you that we deny the fact that the
majority of the LF members are Christians. When you are attacked because of your
religion, for sure you will have a party that the majority of its members belong
to that religion.
> The SSNP does not cater to one sect. It caters to all groups who
>belong to the fertile crescent. Ali Qanso is not from the Koura.
>There are many members from Bkfaya and you admitted that before. That is
>not the Koura.
Ya khaye, I wasn't arguing the fact that SSNP cater to one sect or not. I was
saying that the SSNP party is sectarian and worst than that, it killed Sunnis in
Tripoli, Chrisitans in Koura, Shiaa in Beirut,... they have united the Lebanese
by killing them all. What I am arguing is stop portraying them as Saints, we
know their criminal records.
>Is Bkfaya's population mostly Orthodox? No. Hafez Al
>Assad's wife's relatives were in the SSNP, and that is not the Koura area.
Tell me why they don't have an office in Syria then? Why the SSNP is not allowed
to open offices in Syria and be politcaly active?
>I have met so many SSNP Muslims. Many also come from Beirut.
I have met so many LF Muslims. Many of them came from Beirut, Tripoli, Bekaa and
the South.
>I have not seen even one LF Muslim. Why? But don't you say Lebanon for
>the Lebanese?
Have you ever been in Lebanon during the war? HAve you ever visited an LF office
in Lebanon? Have you ever looked at the names of LF members?
>I see only the Christians in the LF, and for that matter one
>group.
The majority is Christians, I never denied that. As I said before, look at why
the LF was formed and then you will see why the makority of its members are
Christians.
>A friend from Tripoli said of all the parties he respects, it is
>the SSNP. He is a Lebanese Muslim. He does not respect the other groups
>as much. He feels they welcome all. How welcome are Muslism in the LF?
That is a funny statement, I know a Muslim friend and he is a well known figure
in Lebanon and outside and he says He only respect the LF party. Any person,
from any religion is welcomed in the LF if he believe that Lebanon is a free,
independent, and sovereign country. Any Lebanese who believe in the 10452 square
km as Lebanese Republic for all its citizen. Any person that believes that
Lebanon must and should remain free is welcomed in the LF. Any person who
believes that Lebanon shouldn't be part of any other country is welcomed in teh
LF.
>
>
>Basil
Basil Keilani
On 12 Jun 1999, Michel Najem wrote:
> "On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:54:55 -0400, in article
> <Pine.OSF.4.10.99061...@alcor.concordia.ca>, Basil stated:"
> >
> >
>
> Give you humor for what? I am not here to please you or make your life easy.
> When you post something wrong, I will reply to it the way I want to, with or
> without humor.
[ Because I like your humour when I see it:) Isn't that a good
enough reason. Gee, your no crowd pleaser:)
> > You throw the label of killers at the SSNP. I wish to remind you
> >plenty of Lebanese Christians aim that at the LF, they represents only one
> >of the voices of the various Christian-dominated parties. It specifically
> >caters to Christians, thus it is more exclusive, and mostly a specific
> >Christian group.
>
> I am not throwing the labels of killers on SNP, they are. How about if you go
> back and dig for one example what happened in koura on August 12-13 1984 , it
> was a thursday. I will give you the outcome of those 2 days, 15 dead and 70
> wounded. It is to note, during the battles between the SSNP and Marada, the SSNP
> members dismantle and stole the equipment of the broadcasting TV Station in
> Fay3. It is to not that Minister of Media at that time, Joseph Skaf declared:"
> Those equipment are for teh government and must be returned." They never
> returned them.
And how much has the LF stolen from Lebanon and LF men did pollute
Lebanon's environment, n'est-ce pas? Isn't that a great way to make
Lebanon beautiful, polluting the environment? If something was
stolen by some guys, it is wrong.
> The LF is one of the major party that represents the Christians with a LEbanese
> agenda, what is wrong with that? And who told you that we deny the fact that the
> majority of the LF members are Christians. When you are attacked because of your
> religion, for sure you will have a party that the majority of its members belong
> to that religion.
>
Well, ya habibi, when you say Lebanese for the Lebanese, and
long live Lebanon, you can not ignore that the majority are not
Christian in Lebanon, or they might be 50/50 if that makes you happy,
your party is not geared to the masses, it is geared mainly
to Christian Maronites, just as the Mourabitoun was geared to
Sunni Muslims with a sectarian agenda and both groups claim
to be on the defensive. One defending the values of Islam and the other
defending their minority rights. There are other ways to bring about
values and other ways to maintain a minority's rights.
> > The SSNP does not cater to one sect. It caters to all groups who
> >belong to the fertile crescent. Ali Qanso is not from the Koura.
> >There are many members from Bkfaya and you admitted that before. That is
> >not the Koura.
>
> Ya khaye, I wasn't arguing the fact that SSNP cater to one sect or not. I was
> saying that the SSNP party is sectarian and worst than that, it killed Sunnis in
> Tripoli, Chrisitans in Koura, Shiaa in Beirut,... they have united the Lebanese
> by killing them all. What I am arguing is stop portraying them as Saints, we
> know their criminal records.
>
[ Actually, how does that make it sectarian? And, did not the LF
kill people of all backgrounds as well. In war, people kill, Michel,
they do not give out flowers, if they are a militia. The point
is the ideology, was it self-defense, what was at stake etc...
> >Is Bkfaya's population mostly Orthodox? No. Hafez Al
> >Assad's wife's relatives were in the SSNP, and that is not the Koura area.
>
> Tell me why they don't have an office in Syria then? Why the SSNP is not allowed
> to open offices in Syria and be politcaly active?
>
Actually, they are becoming more politically active in Syria, but that
takes time. They were allowed to elect a member of the Syrian parliament
a few years ago. Anyway, this does not mean they do not have activity in
Syria and members. They do. In Jordan, they do have activities there as
well. They do not have the closed borders.
> >I have met so many SSNP Muslims. Many also come from Beirut.
>
> I have met so many LF Muslims. Many of them came from Beirut, Tripoli, Bekaa and
> the South.
>
An LF Muslim? Never seen even one. Do not give me that they were born
Muslim. Please give me a break. An LF Muslim? What self-respecting Muslim
would join the LF, after they killed so many Muslims?
> >I have not seen even one LF Muslim. Why? But don't you say Lebanon for
> >the Lebanese?
>
> Have you ever been in Lebanon during the war? HAve you ever visited an LF office
> in Lebanon? Have you ever looked at the names of LF members?
>
[Names of Kataeb, not LF. The names were all Christian on that list.
> >I see only the Christians in the LF, and for that matter one
> >group.
>
> The majority is Christians, I never denied that. As I said before, look at why
> the LF was formed and then you will see why the makority of its members are
> Christians.
>
Well, how does that respond to a collective identity for Lebanese.
It is a sectarian party. We have nothing to talk about, then, except that
you want the SSNP to also fit into a sectarian party mold.
> >A friend from Tripoli said of all the parties he respects, it is
> >the SSNP. He is a Lebanese Muslim. He does not respect the other groups
> >as much. He feels they welcome all. How welcome are Muslism in the LF?
>
> That is a funny statement, I know a Muslim friend and he is a well known figure
> in Lebanon and outside and he says He only respect the LF party. Any person,
> from any religion is welcomed in the LF if he believe that Lebanon is a free,
> independent, and sovereign country. Any Lebanese who believe in the 10452 square
> km as Lebanese Republic for all its citizen. Any person that believes that
> Lebanon must and should remain free is welcomed in the LF. Any person who
> believes that Lebanon shouldn't be part of any other country is welcomed in teh
> LF.
>
What percentage are they? 2%? Why can you not speak of a Free
Lebanon without appealing to Christian elements exclusively?
Your appeal is almost exclusively Christian-Maronite. That is not
representative of most Lebanese, now is it?
Nahla Osseiran
news:7ju4p4$2j...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >FYI it was not Britain ; it was FORMOSA .
> >And if you doubt this information, you may check with Antoine Azouri
alias
> >Abu Ahmad ) .
>
> It was Britain go and check SSNP and you will find out.
If Ramzi is telling you it is FORMOSA, then it IS FORMOSA! He ought to know.
Go and check with Antoine Azouri(alias Abou Ahmad). He presented this piece
of important information to his superiors.
Nahla
Bassem Medawar
Basil Keilani <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
> Well, ya habibi, when you say Lebanese for the Lebanese, and
>long live Lebanon, you can not ignore that the majority are not
>Christian in Lebanon, or they might be 50/50 if that makes you happy,
>your party is not geared to the masses, it is geared mainly
>to Christian Maronites, just as the Mourabitoun was geared to
>Sunni Muslims with a sectarian agenda and both groups claim
>to be on the defensive. One defending the values of Islam and the other
>defending their minority rights. There are other ways to bring about
>values and other ways to maintain a minority's rights.
Dunno about the LF.. but, having lived very close to the Murabitoon
hub of activity, I can tell you my observation that the Mourabitoun
were not about Islam. They claimed to be Nasserites with implication of
Arab Nationalism. Nasseriism is not a religious movement. The MP Najah
Wakim is or was Nasserite. To be sure, Murabiton errected a mosque and
named it after Nasser. The mosque doubled as their propagnada HQ with
a TV broadcast antena figuring prominently on the mosque building.
Their leader's claim to fame are picture with the Egyptian leader Abdel
Nasser. As one of many opportunist militia that sprang to life in the
civil war they hardly represented anything fundamental but their self
interest and filling the power vacumm created after absence of institutions
of state.
bassem
jose...@hotmail.com
was actually the one who used the 50% number, and not Zawbaa. Basil of
course misquoted it and made it sound as if Zawbaa had said that 50% of
the SSNP is Christian. Was I was saying was that the SSNP is MORE than
50% from a single Christian sect (read: the majority). While I
presonally do not believe that religion is not part of the SSNP agenda,
and that the SSNP do NOT represent the Orthodox, I think that this
particular paradox is particular to Lebanese politics.
--
The opinions expressed here are those of the author
and do not reflect the opinions of my employer
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
jose...@hotmail.com
"Nahla Osseiran" <noss...@standardmail.at> wrote:
[......................]
> You are talking here about local Lebanese politics, and I am sure
that you
> are aware of the fact that those local parties' "ideologies" change
with the
> "tides".
Some do, and some don't. This includes the SSNP. When the Marada was
advancing on the SSNP, they were more than happy to accept Assad's help.
[...................]
> Again see the above for my limited scope. By saying that George Hawi,
(born
> Christian) does not believe in neither God nor religion, because he
is a
> communist and is in the communist party, you are proving my point
that this
> party cannot be sectarian.
I am not following. You said that the SSNP is unique for being secular,
while at the same time accpeting believers, and I said, no they are
hardly unique, and listed the names of a few parties (not including the
communist party).
[.....................]
> What I understood from Ghassan's 'implication', is that when one
joins the
> party the 'spoon-fed' fanaticism or prejudices or prejudgments, call
it
> what you want, should be left behind, not the religious belief
itself. Of
> course, interpretations of certain things are apt to be subjective.
No, actually, he confirmed what I mentioned. The belief here is that
SSNP members subscribe to a higher religous understanding.
[.......................]
> Let us try and look at it from a different angle. You as a non-Jew,
would
> you be 'included' by the Jews? I think it is as simple as that.
You're doing notning more than prove the prejudices. Jewish does not
equate Zinoist and Jewish does not euqate Israeli, and Israeli does not
mean criminal. I am included on regular basis in the activities of some
Jewish families. Some have done orders of magnitude more for the cause
of Lebanon and Palestinians that most of the so-called Arab activists
(you know the empty talk kind). Some volunteer their time and money to
build clinics and schools in the West Bank. I will not judge a person
based on their religion, and you seem to be telling is that you (and
the SSNP) will not judge a person based on their religion, as long as
they are Chrisitian or Muslim. This is plain sectarian.
> So please, don't tell me that the SSNP is sectarian, for you cannot be
> open-minded and open-hearted towards people who look down on you
because
> they believe that they are "the chosen people". You cannot 'include'
people
> who 'exclude' you.
These are not acceptable generalizations.
[...................]
> I don't see any difference, though. You cannot be a Zionist if you
are not a
> Jew. Very simple.
There is a huge difference, because the reverse is not true. Even much
simpler.
> >If that's what the SSNP means, then that's what the SSNP should put
on its
> >web site, instead of the "Jewish dream". If the SSNP is not
inclusive of
> >all sects, then by definition, it is sectarian.
>
> Wrong again. See the above. This is not a logical equation:
>
> Anything that walks on 4 legs is a dog (false premise)
> A cat walks on 4 legs
> Hence, a cat is a dog. (logical conclusion but not valid )
You're off topic here. There is no way that this applies to the
argument I am making. There is no other way to put it: non-sectarian
means acceptance of all religions and non-religions. Excluding even a
single religion puts one under the sectarian label. You are wrong again
on this one.
> The conclusion is logical but not valid, and so is your conclusion.
My conclusion is both logical and valid, and there is no running away
from it, no matter how hard the SSNP tries. Antoun Saade's anti-Jewish
rhetoric is much older than Israel itself. Chew on this little fact for
a while.
> >See the "rooted in their religion" quote. It's on http://www.ssnp.com
>
> Just like you, I do visit this site. But thank you anyway:)
>
> >The SSNP was doing well in here, until it said "rooted in their
> >religion". From that point on, it does not matter how you position
> >Zionist versus non-Zionist, the damage is already done.
>
> Damage to whom?
To the SSNP's claim of secularism.
[.........................]
> Joseph, I like your 'getting stuck in the past' statement. Which
past? Are
> you trying to say that our 'dispute' with the Zionist is past.
The dispute today is with the State of Israel, not with Zionism. This
is the present that I'm talking about. Israel is a mostly secular
country. Only Jerusalem closes down on Friday nights and Saturday, and
even there, they found loopholes to keep the moview theatres open. Tel
Aviv comes alive after dark on Friday's and it's party time until
Sunday. In time, everyone will have to learn how to be inclusive. In
the meantime, my concern is for Lebanon, and what the best peaceful way
might be to free it from both occupiers, and allow it to remain free
and independent, not an Arab instrument like some want it to be, or an
Israeli province like some others want.
> Pardon my naďveté, but I don't see where the simplicity lies. Please
> enlighten me.
It is very simple: hate breds hate, and exclusionism breeds same.
[.......................]
> We, and I mean Lebanon and the Lebanese, are still in the *present*
where
> this *situation* is concerned, ya Joseph. Don't talk to me about
history and
> the *past* when more that half of the South is still under Israeli
> occupation. And to those who want to add their salt and pepper, this
> discussion here is about Israel and Zionism !
No it's not, and you are not naive. It's about Syria, Israel and the
Palestinians and the events of the past 75 years. Israel occupies a
portion of the South (not half), and Assad occupies the rest of the
country, and we're talking about exclusion of Jews as the first step
toward the salvation of Lebanon?
> Nahla
Nishee
Nahla the "secular" Greater Syrianist :
>> Let us try and look at it from a different angle. You as a non-Jew,
>would
>> you be 'included' by the Jews? I think it is as simple as that.
Joseph the all too reasonable and logical free thinker :
>You're doing notning more than prove the prejudices. Jewish does not
>equate Zinoist and Jewish does not euqate Israeli, and Israeli does not
>mean criminal. I am included on regular basis in the activities of some
>Jewish families. Some have done orders of magnitude more for the cause
>of Lebanon and Palestinians that most of the so-called Arab activists
>(you know the empty talk kind). Some volunteer their time and money to
>build clinics and schools in the West Bank. I will not judge a person
>based on their religion, and you seem to be telling is that you (and
>the SSNP) will not judge a person based on their religion, as long as
>they are Chrisitian or Muslim. This is plain sectarian.
>
>
Joseph, this is what it all boils down too. Those that often claim to be
secularists or to belong to secular ideologies often turn out to be in fact
sectarian. This includes Nahla Osseiran who claimed to be "secular to the
bone". Oh well, one must then assume that her bone marrow is sectarian.
Nishee
>> So please, don't tell me that the SSNP is sectarian, for you cannot be
>> open-minded and open-hearted towards people who look down on you
>because
>> they believe that they are "the chosen people".
Nahla, Islam teaches that Arabs and Moslems are favored by the Arabian deity
Allah above other peoples. You mean too tell me your Moslem upbring was so
secular that it didn't teach you that? Your hypocrisy is horrendous.
Nahla the "secularist" :
>You cannot 'include'
>people
>> who 'exclude' you.
Have you never met a Jew in all your years in Austria that was an atheist? an
agnostic? or a secular Jew? How about a member of the Reformed Synagogue that
is very popular among western Jews and teaches that the Jewish scriptures
teachings about the "Jews being God's chosen people" is obviously exclusive,
antiquated and not conducive to healthy spiritual thinking? Nahla you were
raised in too Islamist of a background or too Arabist of a background to know
any better so you shouldn't be blamed that much. Yet after living in Austria
for as long as you have you should know better by now.
And before you start with "how do you know I was raised in an Islamist or
Arabist atmosphere" questions, just trust me when I tell you I know.
Nahla the "secularist to the bone lady" :
>> I don't see any difference, though. You cannot be a Zionist if you
>are not a
>> Jew. Very simple.
Are you out of your mind? Do you know how many Christian groups in the west
advocate Zionism ! Did you every watch Pat Ronertson's the "700 club"?? It airs
in Europe. I saw it in Switzerland and France many times. Check it out. You
will learn something about "jews being Zionists".
But what am I saying, Nahla? You didn't even know what the Marada was/is in
Lebanon. Nahla, you need to learn alot about politics and society in the West
and in the Middle East not too mention Lebanon.
>Antoun Saade's anti-Jewish
>rhetoric is much older than Israel itself. Chew on this little fact for
>a while.
Antoun Saade was a crafty and cunning Lebanese Christians who knew that one of
the fastest ways to sell "Greater Syrianism" to the Arabs and Moslems of the
Fertile Crescent was too jump on the "hate the Jews band wagon". Anti-Judaism
in the Moslem world dates from the days personal days of Mohamad and then into
the Arab Moslem Caliphate
era of Jewish Dhimitude and then into the 19th and 20th centuries conflict with
world Jewry and its Zionism.
Antoine Saad knew that if you could point to the Jews and demonize them then
you would have a greater chance of having the large Moslem population of the
Fertile Crescent listen to his personally created ideology of a "Secular"
Greater Syria that excludes Jews.
Nishee
Nishee
>> Let us try and look at it from a different angle. You as a non-Jew,
>would
>> you be 'included' by the Jews? I think it is as simple as that.
>
Would he even want to be included? I wouldn't. Nahla, you hypocrite. Joseph is
too good to even answer you. For months you have been asked to address the
discriminatory and exclusive ideologies socio-political ideologies of Islam and
you have NEVER EVER EVER addressed them . To the country you ran away from them
and in the end "filtered them out of your world* which was all the better
because it showed your true colors and where you were coming from. You who were
supposed to be "secular to the bone". Guess what ya Nahla? Your bone marrow is
sectarian.
Joseph who is too well read for Nahla who is not too up on details of life and
relgion in the Middle East :
>The dispute today is with the State of Israel, not with Zionism. This
>is the present that I'm talking about. Israel is a mostly secular
>country. >Only Jerusalem closes down on Friday nights and Saturday, and
>even there, they found loopholes to keep the moview theatres open.
>Tel>Aviv comes alive after dark on Friday's and it's party time until
>Sunday.
Nahla is clueless. You couldn't get the Palestinians in Israel to leave Israel
and live in any Arab country if you pried them out. They are living more
freedoms and equalities then the average resident in the Arab world could ever
dream of. Nahla wouldn't know about that. Oh well Nahla now I know you are not
a Druze from Lebanon. The Druze all know this.
Joseph :
>In\>the meantime, my concern is for Lebanon, and what the best peaceful way
>might be to free it from both occupiers,
As long as you keep in mind that Nahla's ultimate goal is to melt Lebanon into
Syria-Iraq-Cyprus-Palestine and Jordan than things are ok.
Joseph :
> and allow it to remain free
>and independent, not an Arab instrument like some want it to be, or an
>Israeli province like some others want.
Cantonization would establish an Arab Moslem canton in Lebanon and a non-Arab
canton in Lebanon (probably with a Shiite one and a Sunni one). This way if the
Arabs in Lebanon decide they want war with Israel then let them war from their
canton and if Tripoli, West Beirut and Sidon are leveled to the ground by
Israeli gunboats and the Bekaa and south Lebanon are mowed over then the
non-Arab Christians of Mt Lebanon will not have to pay the price for the
Arabo-Israeli-Islamist international conflict and the Arabists and Islamists in
Lebanon can have their dreams of confrontation come true. This way all parties
are satisfied.
Nahla the "secularist to the bone sectarian" :
>We, and I mean Lebanon and the Lebanese, are still in the *present*
>where
>> this *situation* is concerned, ya Joseph.
Lady, you don't even believe in Lebanon ya sit. Let's remember that you are a
Greater Syrianist here.
>Don't talk to me about
>history and
>> the *past* when more that half of the South is still under Israeli
>> occupation.
You are out of your mind or ignorant. Learn some Lebanese geography ya sit. The
Israel occupation zone is not even 1/4 of south Lebanon let alone over half.
Are you sure you are not mentally impaired or ill?
>And to those who want to add their salt and pepper, this
>> discussion here is about Israel and Zionism !
It is about Islam and Arabism's hatred towards Jews. That is the root of this
problem. It started when the Arab Moslem Prophet, started fiercley warring,
conflicting and then hating the Arab Jews of Arabia. It is about the Arab
Moslem Empire wanting to imperialize any and ALL lands from el maghreb to EL
MESHRIQ [from the Atlantic to the Persian Gulf] and all peoples in between.
Take that too the bank ya sit Nahla. Does Austria have anti-racist laws? if it
does then someone in Austria needs to take Ms Nahla Osseiran statements to the
attention of Austiran authorities.
Joseph :
>No it's not, and you are not naive.
She is smart when she wants to be and naive when she wants to be just like she
is a "secularist to the bone" when she wants to be and her sectarian to the
bone marrow when she wants to be.
>It's about Syria, Israel and the
>Palestinians and the events of the past 75 years.
It is about Arabism, Islamism, 14 centuries of native Phoenician Christian
Resistance, it is about Zionism and geopolitics, it is about how Christian,
Jewish and Islamic texts and teaching effect society and politics, it is about
how these 3 have evolved or devolved. It is about a whole lot.
Jo :
> Israel occupies a
>portion of the South (not half)
Glad you caught that too. I don't know who Nahla thinks she is talking too.
> and Assad occupies the rest of the
>country,
God keep his Alawite self in office just a little bit longer. He has some more
"surgery" to do on the Sunni Islamists in the region. Nahla would you like
that or no?
Nishee
God keep the Alawites in power long enough to realize that which needs to be
realized.
Ghassan Haddad
Perhaps the SSNP should say that as long as you arrive at wisdom, it doesn't
matter if you do it through your strong belief in the Koran or the Bible, or a
study of the great philosophers. We leave the door open to all philosophies.
Devout Christians and Moslems as well as agnostics equally believe in the SSNP
principles. We do have a problem with the "chosen people" coming into our
nation to confiscate land. The Jewish people you know have obviously adopted
the message of the Bible and the Torah rather than the literal meaning. They
share their lives with you and show benevolence towards the disadvantaged of
Palestine because they are displaying goodness and an appreciation of what they
have. It doesn't matter to us if you arrive at that goodness through one of the
books, through self examination and meditation or any method that does not
subject other people to hardship. We have never excluded any religion.
You said on Mon, 14 June Message-id: <7k256a$gi8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>:
<<<<<My conclusion is both logical and valid, and there is no running away from
it, no matter how hard the SSNP tries. Antoun Saade's anti-Jewish rhetoric is
much older than Israel itself. Chew on this little fact for a while.>>>>>
I have been chewing on this most of my life. How can a visionary like Saade
show us all the warning signs that a calamity was about to inflict our nation
and we didn't prevent it? Why is it that a global organization can conspire to
implant non-indigenous people among us at the expense of our people and we
didn't feel alarmed about it until it actually happened?
Anyway you look at it, the idea of Eretz Yisrael is older than the SSNP and
Saade, and is the motivation behind the establishment of the modern day Jewish
state.
Can you imagine what Saade must have been thinking? In his lifetime he warned
of the dangers he saw in the encouragement of Jewish immigration into Palestine
to reclaim the 'Promised Land." That was before the brutal attempt of the
Germans to obliterate part of their population. After that he saw Palestine
become the land where the wounds of WWII would heal at the expense of our
people. Today you tell me that Saade's "rhetoric" was simply anti Jewish
propaganda. Are you saying that he used that rhetoric as a rallying cry? Or are
you saying that the SSNP, by instructions of the founder, simply hate Jews,
thus discriminating against a religious sect?
If I come up with an organized effort to acquire land in Batroun for a sect
that believes that their ancestors left them a holy book telling them to go
live there, would you feel alarmed? If you learn that the sect has the
political and financial power to dislodge the people of Batroon, would you show
any bad feelings towards their beliefs? Would you consider yourself sectarian
or discriminatory if you express that you feel the sect's beliefs are
threatening you? If the sect succeeds in expelling some people out of Batroun
and replacing them with people from Florida, how would you feel if I told you
that you can't complain about their beliefs because they are established and
you were hateful to them way before they took your land?
You can label our principles and our founder as hateful to the Jews. Because
the party was able to predict the calamity, I would say our founder was a
visionary.
You also say:
<<<<<<No it's not, and you are not naive. It's about Syria, Israel and the
Palestinians and the events of the past 75 years. Israel occupies a portion of
the South (not half), and Assad occupies the rest of the country, and we're
talking about exclusion of Jews as the first step toward the salvation of
Lebanon?>>>>>>
Indeed most of our problems occurred in the past 75 years or so. The events
that affected all the countries you name above are interconnected. Obviously we
believe they occurred in one nation. But if we include or accept the Jews (you
didn't say Israelis), we would have a clear shot at the salvation of Lebanon?
Can you please explain how all our problem would be solved if we just extended
a goodwill hand to the Jews. How would that solve the problems we have among
ourselves (you know: the clan, the sect, etc..)? Recognizing Jews as indigenous
people is not a long shot, it's a given. A Dirzi child becoming president or
Prime Minister, that's a long shot. Opening the door and saying to all the Jews
in the world that they are welcome to come take our land, that's madness. Pay
money to see it, I like that. A Lebanese Jew from Wadi Abou Jmil would be an
indigenous person to our land, religion and all. When you cross the line and
recognize Judaism as a nationality, then we will have a problem. That's
Zionism. Nationality implies a birthright to a nation. If all of a sudden you
live in Russia and you remember that your maternal grandmother was Jewish, you
shouldn't have a birthright to come and confiscate land and property in
Palestine because it is your "Promised Land."
TaHya Sourya
YaHya Loubnan
Ghassan
rachid
Why it is hard to accept the defeat of the Palestinians organizations
and their Lebanese allies in 1976? As most of us remember the Lebanese
resistance defeated those groups in Karantina, Tel Al-Zaatar, Jisr
El-Basha, Dbayeh, Nabaah, El-Koura, Upper Matn, Part of Alyeh, Jezyne.
Yes, the Lebanese resistance faced a tough onslaught at the beginning of
1976 but after the Karantena battle it started the drive to liberate
Lebanon.
How can you justify that the Syrian tanks and army crushed the
Palestinians and the (leftists?! SSNP, Mourabetoun, Jind Allah, Ekhwaan
are leftists?)? Can you verify that the Syrians liberated Tel El-Zaatar,
El-Koura, etc? Or was it the other way around? If the Syrians were
helping the Lebanese why they did not stop the massacres in Damour,
Akkar, Bekaa, Chekka? Those massacres took place before the spring of
1976.
Do you remember the famous speech of President Assad of 1976? Did not he
say that the Syrians armed the Palestinians and the their Lebanese
collaborators with arms and fighters but to no avail? Did not he say
that they came to him asking for more support but he decided to use the
Syrian Army to intervene and stop the successful liberation drive by the
Lebanese resistance (Kataeb, Ahrar, etc.)?
Do you remember also the famous speech of Mr. Kamal Jumblat, head of the
National Movement, in the winter of 1975 that three (3) Fedayeens
(Palestinians) in three (3) days will defeat the Kataeb and terminate
the Christians share of power in the system? Why three Palestinians? Why
defeating the Kataeb and not the Lebanese army? Why terminating the
Christians share of the power? Was there any other group to replace
them?
Do you agree by now that the Syrian army was present in Lebanon during
the early stage of the war on Lebanon? Do you agree that the United
States with the consensus of Israel (Rabeen) and the Soviet Unions
prepared the legalization of the Syrian presence in Lebanon as a
deterrent force (Quwat Al-Raddaah) to complete the execution of its
policy? Do you agree that in the fall of 1976 the Arab League mandated
the Syrians and few troops from other Arab States as the deterrent
force? Do you agree that the mandate for that force was to help the
Lebanese legality led by President Sarkis recover the sovereignty and
subject the Palestinians to its authority under the Cairo agreement? Why
the Syrians did not execute their mandate and mission? Why they did not
disarm the Palestinians organizations? Why the Syrians changed their
intention and attacked the liberated and free area?
Did not Yasser Arafat himself announced from Gaza that he was a part of
a design of controlling all of Lebanon but was defeated by the
unexpected resistance of the Lebanese led by the Kataeb? Do you agree
that Lebanon have been used as a ground to solve the Palestinian
problem? The main goal was to transfer it into a Palestinian led state
and now to settle and naturalize the Palestinians refugees. What can you
tell about the ongoing problem in Sida and lately the killing of four
judges?
How can the used to be called the National Movement still justify their
participation in the war? Are not they ashamed? Can they apologize? Will
they accept the honorable resistance of the Lebanese led by the Kataeb?
Will they concur that due to that resistance there is things today
called Lebanon, Lebanese Army, Lebanese Legality, Lebanon's right? Let
us add and affirm that sacrifices of the resistance in the South is
helping in regaining the sovereignty and the continuity of Lebanon as a
free and independent country.
Finally, we keep hearing that the SSNP participated honorably in the war
on Lebanon. They participated just to protect themselves from the
Kataeb. Poor SSNP. Why in 1958 they fought on side of the Kataeb and
President Chamoun? They participated to prevent the Kataeb from
partitioning Lebanon. Pity on the SSNP. Who are they fooling? Did not
they see the Palestinians onslaught? Will they have the courage to
accept their involvement in liquidating Lebanon? Thank God. None of them
succeeded. Lebanon will regain its sovereignty and independence. All
foreign troops will leave, history dictate that, all of them left
Lebanon defeated. What the SSNP got to offer the Lebanese? An
organization of the past modeled after the nationalist movements of
Europe in Twenties and the Thirties will have nothing to offer and
nothing to survive on in our current world.
In article <19990610170537...@ng-ff1.aol.com>,
zaw...@aol.com (Zawbaa) wrote:
> Hello Joseph,
>
> You write:
> <<<<<<<<<<<< Yes, I have a number of friends who served in the LF.
They've all
> been disconnected from the LF since the mid 1980's. I am the product
of my
> environment, and that is a predominantly Maronite area, that voted for
> non-sectarian candidates throughout its history, stayed out of the way
until
> June 1976, and for the most part was anti-Kataeb. This all changed in
June of
> 1976 when the National Front attacked. It was led by the SSNP on one
side
> (again, people from an SSNP village above Batroun, which happens to be
almost
> exclusively Orthodox, but who represented only a minority in the
village), and
> the PLO coming in from Beirut and landing on the beach. This was a
very well
> coordinated attack. It was expected, and the people of Batroun were
mostly
> neutral on it (they associated more with the non-sectarian promises of
the
> other side).
> Once the SSNP and the PLO opened the door, the sectarian crowds rolled
in,
> killed, raped, stole, and burned. They did not even spare their SSNP
> comrades-in-arms (killed some of them as well). As the battle raged,
Church
> bells rang in Mount Lebanon, and people who were civilians, minding
their own
> business before the war, poured into
> Batroun to help. They stopped the massacre, and drove the attackers
> back beyond Tripoli, and in the process, they overran Koura and all
the SSNP
> positions. It took less than 3 days to complete that. Guess what the
public
> sentiment in Batroun was after that? We were duped, and if we had not
gotten
> help, we would all be dead. Silly us for believing those who said that
this is
> about politics. You tell me that you do not want to point fingers, but
you're
> also quick to mention "those responsible for the overwhelming number
of deaths
> by slaughter". I wonder who that might be.>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> ___________
> My comments:
> The accusatory finger would not point at the SSNP.
>
> You can remember history the way you want. But, at the end of May and
the
> beginning of June 1976, it wasn't a bunch of ragtag citizens carrying
shovels
> and shotguns that sliced through the SSNP and the National Movement
lines.
> Tanks with the insignia of the Syrian Arab Republic did.
>
> TaHya Sourya
> YaHya Loubnan
> Ghassan
>
>
Michel Najem
<7k007b$puu$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net>, "Nahla stated:"
Is Ramzi God ? How about if you go and do your own research and find out who
gave them money. In my research about the SSNP, I found out how the British gave
them money and used them. How about if you listen to abdel massih, have you ever
heard of him? Ask Ramzi about him, because only Ramzi knows.
>Nahla
Michel Najem
<Pine.OSF.4.10.99061...@alcor.concordia.ca>, Basil stated:"
[...]
>>
>> I am not throwing the labels of killers on SNP, they are. How about if you go
>> back and dig for one example what happened in koura on August 12-13 1984 , it
>> was a thursday. I will give you the outcome of those 2 days, 15 dead and 70
>>wounded. It is to note, during the battles between the SSNP and Marada, the SSNP
>> members dismantle and stole the equipment of the broadcasting TV Station in
>>Fay3. It is to not that Minister of Media at that time, Joseph Skaf declared:"
>> Those equipment are for teh government and must be returned." They never
>> returned them.
>
> And how much has the LF stolen from Lebanon and LF men did pollute
>Lebanon's environment, n'est-ce pas? Isn't that a great way to make
>Lebanon beautiful, polluting the environment? If something was
>stolen by some guys, it is wrong.
>
>
I talk to you about X you reply about Y. As for the environment stuff, the LF
never polluted the environment. How many times I have to explain and state the
facts for you? I told you before and I say it again, once the LF command found
out about the toxic waste in Lebanon it did it best to ship it out. Why you
always manage to ignore the fact that toxic waste kept entering Lebanon long
after the LF was dissolved.
> Well, ya habibi, when you say Lebanese for the Lebanese, and
>long live Lebanon, you can not ignore that the majority are not
>Christian in Lebanon, or they might be 50/50 if that makes you happy,
>your party is not geared to the masses, it is geared mainly
>to Christian Maronites, just as the Mourabitoun was geared to
>Sunni Muslims with a sectarian agenda and both groups claim
>to be on the defensive.
Again and again teh same story with you. Either you don't understand what people
write or you love to create lies. Who told you or where did you read that I
ignore the people in Lebanon and their status. I don't know aboutt eh majority
issue, but hey when you displace and force people to leave their country you
might have a majority but still I doubt it. Anyway, I careless who is a majority
or who is a minority, I believe in equality for all. We are all Lebanese. You
sound more secterian day after day ya Basil. AS for the LF is wasn't geared
mainly towards Maronites Christians, how many time I have to tell you teh sects
of its political council, or the sects of their staff at that time. If you have
a problem with your memory you must check a doctor.
>One defending the values of Islam and the other
>defending their minority rights. There are other ways to bring about
>values and other ways to maintain a minority's rights.
Wrong, when war started, nobody attacked the values of Islam and the other side
wasn't a minority either. Your informations are wrong.
>> Ya khaye, I wasn't arguing the fact that SSNP cater to one sect or not. I was
>>saying that the SSNP party is sectarian and worst than that, it killed Sunnis in
>>Tripoli, Chrisitans in Koura, Shiaa in Beirut,... they have united the Lebanese
>> by killing them all. What I am arguing is stop portraying them as Saints, we
>> know their criminal records.
>>
>
>[ Actually, how does that make it sectarian? And, did not the LF
>kill people of all backgrounds as well. In war, people kill, Michel,
>they do not give out flowers, if they are a militia. The point
>is the ideology, was it self-defense, what was at stake etc...
At the end you came back and you used my own words, you are amazing. Every time
I told you this is war and people die in war. And here you are today defending
the SSNP killings with my words. It is funny when ever I point to you the
killings and the wrong doing of the SSNP you reply by pointing the finger to the
LF.
By the way, armies or militias to your own knowledge both don't give flowers
during the war.
As for the SSNP ideology, it is an ideology based on an illusion, an ideology
that its own founder fell in his own words. An ideology that was launched
against secterianism proved it is more secterian than others when it took the
jews as enemies. Anyway, during the war we saw their secularism behavior, kill
Christians as much as you can.
>>Tell me why they don't have an office in Syria then? Why the SSNP is not allowed
>> to open offices in Syria and be politcaly active?
>>
> Actually, they are becoming more politically active in Syria, but that
>takes time.
Yeah it will take time and they will never ever be politically active in Syria.
The Baath party will crush them if they decide to be active. When baath time is
over, the Islamic groups wil take over and again SSNP will be crushed if they
try to become active.
>They were allowed to elect a member of the Syrian parliament
>a few years ago. Anyway, this does not mean they do not have activity in
>Syria and members. They do. In Jordan, they do have activities there as
>well. They do not have the closed borders.
Assad plays you very well, give them a member today and let them be happy. One
member against hundreds, it is fun to play with you. In Jordan too :) can you
pass me their office address? Or as usual the SSNP activities are under the
table and they plan to overthrow the regime by force when they ahve the chance
to do so.
> An LF Muslim? Never seen even one. Do not give me that they were born
>Muslim. Please give me a break. An LF Muslim? What self-respecting Muslim
>would join the LF, after they killed so many Muslims?
>
Never seen one because you are blind and you don't want to see it. I will not
give you any break because you spread lies and on teh top of that you ahve no
clue about what is going on in Lebanon. The Muslims that join the LF are more
respectable than you are. At least they care about Lebanon and they want it to
be free from all foreign forces. Those are the one who believe in Lebanon as a
free independent Lebanon. Those are the one who refused all the ideology thrown
on them in the name of brotherhood and Arabism, they are the one who decided to
believe in Lebanon only. They are the pefect example that hte LF didn't kill
Muslims just because they are Msulims. The LF fought against all of those who
don't believe in Lebanon as a free, sovereign and independent state.
>>Have you ever been in Lebanon during the war? HAve you ever visited an LF office
>> in Lebanon? Have you ever looked at the names of LF members?
>>
>[Names of Kataeb, not LF. The names were all Christian on that list.
Are we talking about the Kataeb now???? You went to the Kataeb main office in
Jemmeyzeh and you looked at the records?? When?
>
>> >I see only the Christians in the LF, and for that matter one
>> >group.
>>
>>The majority is Christians, I never denied that. As I said before, look at why
>> the LF was formed and then you will see why the makority of its members are
>> Christians.
>>
> Well, how does that respond to a collective identity for Lebanese.
>It is a sectarian party. We have nothing to talk about, then, except that
>you want the SSNP to also fit into a sectarian party mold.
>
Christians are part ofthat community either you like it or not. People are free
to form any kind of party tehy like, either they like it or not. Akdi we have
nothing to talk about, because I believe in a party that believes in Lebanon as
a final state for all its citizen being Muslim or Christian and you believe in a
party that doesn't believe in Lebanon as a final state. I believe in sovreignty
and independence of Lebanon and you don't. The most important part is, I am
Lebanese and you are not. I am the one who ahs the right to decide for Lebanon
and you are not. Arafat time is over haboub.
>> >A friend from Tripoli said of all the parties he respects, it is
>> >the SSNP. He is a Lebanese Muslim. He does not respect the other groups
>> >as much. He feels they welcome all. How welcome are Muslism in the LF?
>>
>>That is a funny statement, I know a Muslim friend and he is a well known figure
>> in Lebanon and outside and he says He only respect the LF party. Any person,
>> from any religion is welcomed in the LF if he believe that Lebanon is a free,
>>independent, and sovereign country. Any Lebanese who believe in the 10452 square
>> km as Lebanese Republic for all its citizen. Any person that believes that
>> Lebanon must and should remain free is welcomed in the LF. Any person who
>>believes that Lebanon shouldn't be part of any other country is welcomed in teh
>> LF.
>>
> What percentage are they? 2%? Why can you not speak of a Free
>Lebanon without appealing to Christian elements exclusively?
>Your appeal is almost exclusively Christian-Maronite. That is not
>representative of most Lebanese, now is it?
Who said the LF are representatives of all LEbanese? I am not, on the other
hand, you are the one who is saying SSNP represents the majority of Lebanese,
and if you really look at their numbers they can't even match the LF today,
eventhough the LF is banned. If SSNP is a majority how come the LF, in its
situation today, managed to win in the ehartland of the SSNP in the municpal
elections?
In addition, the LF represents the majority of the Christians in Lebanon and
they are Lebanese by the way.
Anita
Bassem Medawar <med...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:7k0lc0$sc4$1...@panix3.panix.com...
> In article <Pine.OSF.4.10.99061...@alcor.concordia.ca>,
> Basil Keilani <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
> >long live Lebanon, you can not ignore that the majority are not
> >Christian in Lebanon, or they might be 50/50 if that makes you happy,
> >your party is not geared to the masses, it is geared mainly
> >to Christian Maronites, just as the Mourabitoun was geared to
> >Sunni Muslims with a sectarian agenda and both groups claim
> >to be on the defensive. One defending the values of Islam and the other
> >defending their minority rights. There are other ways to bring about
> >values and other ways to maintain a minority's rights.
>
> hub of activity, I can tell you my observation that the Mourabitoun
> were not about Islam. They claimed to be Nasserites with implication of
Oh yeah! I cant count the times I heard their Radio Station (Sawt Lobnan al
3arabi) calling "Khayber Khayber ya Maroun Jayshou Mouhamad sawfa ya3oud!"
Amro ALKAIR
> Mr. Zawbaa and others.
>
> Why it is hard to accept the defeat of the Palestinians organizations
> and their Lebanese allies in 1976? [...]Syrian Army to intervene and stop
> the successful liberation drive by the
> Lebanese resistance (Kataeb, Ahrar, etc.)?
And these facts are confirmed by a witness who was captured by a warship of
StarFleet
on Jupiter. Up to this moment, Dark Vador did not comment these news but a
dépêche
of the Agence France Press (AFP) indicates that the Ewoks with the Commander
Luke
SkyWalker are working with the KGB to use the Enterprise of Commander Data
to find
out the origin of the Syrian-Rumulan conspiracy....
Have nice dreams.
--
Amro
Nahla Osseiran
> I told you before and I say it again, once the LF command >found out about
>the toxic waste in Lebanon it did it best to ship it out. Why >you always
>manage to ignore the fact that toxic waste kept entering Lebanon >long
>after the LF was dissolved.
Now, why should Basil take YOUR word for it and you won't take RAMZI'S
word for FORMOSA?
Asking if Ramzi is God, in my opinion, borders on blasphemy! So, kindly
refrain from using such expressions.
Regards,
Nahla
Michel Najem <Mic...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:7k311b$2v...@drn.newsguy.com...
Anita
at home in Austria...
Nahla Osseiran <noss...@standardmail.at> wrote in message
news:7k3jf6$j4g$1...@fleetstreet.Austria.EU.net...
Arz
Amro ALKAIR <am...@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:376538FB...@club-internet.fr...
> rachid wrote:
>
> > Mr. Zawbaa and others.
> >
> > Why it is hard to accept the defeat of the Palestinians organizations
> > and their Lebanese allies in 1976? [...]Syrian Army to intervene and
stop
> > the successful liberation drive by the
> > Lebanese resistance (Kataeb, Ahrar, etc.)?
>
Michel Najem
>
>This is part of a reply of yours to Basil on June 12, 1999:
>
>> I told you before and I say it again, once the LF command >found out about
>>the toxic waste in Lebanon it did it best to ship it out. Why >you always
>>manage to ignore the fact that toxic waste kept entering Lebanon >long
>>after the LF was dissolved.
>
>Now, why should Basil take YOUR word for it and you won't take RAMZI'S
>word for FORMOSA?
I didn't say Formosa didn't give the SSNP money, I said Britian gave them money.
Basil shouldn't take my words at all, he should look for the truth on his own.
The newspapers articles are out there. The problem with Basil is he take a small
part of the story and he buils a movie on it based on a small tiny part of teh
truth.
>Asking if Ramzi is God, in my opinion, borders on blasphemy! So, kindly
>refrain from using such expressions.
Each one of us is GOD, this is the way I see it. Is it blasphemy now to use a
lebanese
expression? Since when you became so religious, i thought you are on the secular
side, or is it that you use secularism as a tool to reach something else ?
>Regards,
Nahla Osseiran
Michel Najem
>
>Cheap!
>
Sure it is, it is your truth uncovered.
>Nahla
>
Michel
"LEBANON IS FOR LEBANESE"
Basil Keilani
Bassem, I did not hear the Radio Show "Anita" is talking about,
but a friend of mine in Tripoli told me they got fanatical, and this is
what some from Tripoli say and the Syrians really lost their cool with the
Mourabitoun, they did take religion in the wrong way. I forget the name
of that Sheik so influential with the Mourabitoun, but, anyway, they are
not representative of your average person, they were a sectarian group as
I see it.
Basil
jose...@hotmail.com
Yes, the idea of Eretz Israel is older than the SSNP, but you don't
want to see here is that pure adherence to a set of religous principles
is not what drove the creation of modern Israel. Israel today is a
secular society (as secular as any society can be, when only two sects
have full citizenship rights). I will go back to an earlier message of
yours (this thread is getting to be way too taxing on my time), and say
that no one can claim the high moral ground. SSNP members did things
that you are not proud of, and even allied itself politically at time
with parties that you don't want to acknowledge, but these are the
facts, like them or not. I am pointing those out to you. Oeverall, the
SSNP proved to be one of the cleanest parties around throughout the
Lebanese conflict, but this does not absolve from the bad things that
were committed in its name. This sort of stuff comes with the
territory. If I did not believe in that, I would not be able to sit at
the same table with SSNP members. One of the things that I always
remind my SSNP friends of, is that they still cannot take the high
moral ground, as long as they do not clear the issue of anti-Judaism.
They dismiss the topic as non-important, but I think that what they're
telling me is that this is a taboo'ed topic, given the current
alliances they have in Lebanon today.
> Can you imagine what Saade must have been thinking? In his lifetime
he warned
> of the dangers he saw in the encouragement of Jewish immigration into
Palestine
> to reclaim the 'Promised Land." That was before the brutal attempt of
the
> Germans to obliterate part of their population. After that he saw
Palestine
> become the land where the wounds of WWII would heal at the expense of
our
> people. Today you tell me that Saade's "rhetoric" was simply anti
Jewish
> propaganda. Are you saying that he used that rhetoric as a rallying
cry? Or are
> you saying that the SSNP, by instructions of the founder, simply hate
Jews,
> thus discriminating against a religious sect?
You are defending party line. You're also holding Saade above all
reproach. No one should be above criticizm. What would you say about a
party whose Za'eem is presented as infallible? I do not have a party
allegiance, so I can say that, who knows, I may be defending my party
no matter what if I had partisan inclinations.
> If I come up with an organized effort to acquire land in Batroun for
a sect
> that believes that their ancestors left them a holy book telling them
to go
> live there, would you feel alarmed? If you learn that the sect has the
> political and financial power to dislodge the people of Batroon,
would you show
> any bad feelings towards their beliefs? Would you consider yourself
sectarian
> or discriminatory if you express that you feel the sect's beliefs are
> threatening you? If the sect succeeds in expelling some people out of
Batroun
> and replacing them with people from Florida, how would you feel if I
told you
> that you can't complain about their beliefs because they are
established and
> you were hateful to them way before they took your land?
Separate the sect from the sectarians who are doing the harm. Some of
my best friends are Jewish, and some are doing great work for
Palestinian refugees. Should I blame them for what some of the people
who are part of their religion are doing? Just as in Christianity and
Islam, you will find many interpretations of Judaism. Given the
population of Israel, and the number of Jews who call home somewhere
else, even though there is a law in Israel that gives them citizenship
rights, the only logical conclusion I can make is that the majority of
Jews does not believe that Israel is their home as prescribed by the
religion.
> You can label our principles and our founder as hateful to the Jews.
Because
> the party was able to predict the calamity, I would say our founder
was a
> visionary.
I am not labeling anyone anything. I am pointing to his writings, and
to the SSNP web site which point to the religion as the main problem.
You should work on changing that to change the perception.
> You also say:
> <<<<<<No it's not, and you are not naive. It's about Syria, Israel
and the
> Palestinians and the events of the past 75 years. Israel occupies a
portion of
> the South (not half), and Assad occupies the rest of the country, and
we're
> talking about exclusion of Jews as the first step toward the
salvation of
> Lebanon?>>>>>>
>
> Indeed most of our problems occurred in the past 75 years or so. The
events
> that affected all the countries you name above are interconnected.
Obviously we
> believe they occurred in one nation. But if we include or accept the
Jews (you
> didn't say Israelis), we would have a clear shot at the salvation of
Lebanon?
> Can you please explain how all our problem would be solved if we just
extended
> a goodwill hand to the Jews. How would that solve the problems we
have among
> ourselves (you know: the clan, the sect, etc..)?
I don't mean Jews in general, I mean Israelis. Inclusion would help
solve our problems. If the areas military problems are worked out, then
there would be very little reason for all the dictators who have been
sucking the blood of the people for more than 50 years to continue to
exist. Israel is the best thing that ever happened to them.
Sectarianism in Lebanon would have been eradicated a long time ago, if
the issue of Israel and the Palestinians was not used to polarize the
people around religious axis.
I don't resent the SSNP, but I do question your right to treat it, and
its members as if they were above reproach. I also don't understand
this mentality (not yours, but certainly that of every single SSNP
supporter on SCL), who automatically throws the "attacking" label, when
the discussion is not one-sided on the side of the SSNP. Isn't there
any room left for discussion? does the SSNP walk on water? does anyone?
> Recognizing Jews as indigenous
> people is not a long shot, it's a given. A Dirzi child becoming
president or
> Prime Minister, that's a long shot. Opening the door and saying to
all the Jews
> in the world that they are welcome to come take our land, that's
madness. Pay
> money to see it, I like that. A Lebanese Jew from Wadi Abou Jmil
would be an
> indigenous person to our land, religion and all. When you cross the
line and
> recognize Judaism as a nationality, then we will have a problem.
That's
> Zionism. Nationality implies a birthright to a nation. If all of a
sudden you
> live in Russia and you remember that your maternal grandmother was
Jewish, you
> shouldn't have a birthright to come and confiscate land and property
in
> Palestine because it is your "Promised Land."
See above. BTW, one last comment here on this myth that the Assad tanks
were what defeated the SSNP in the summer of 1976 in Batroun and Koura.
This is myth my friend. We were on the receiving end of the National
Movement's attack (whih resulted in the deaths of a few fighters, and
the slaughter of hundreds of civilians), and it WAS ordinary people
from Mount Lebanon, Batroun, Zgharta, and Koura who came out to defend
the region and drive the attackers back. You can trust me on that one.
> TaHya Souria
> YaHya Loubnan
> Ghassan
Bassem Medawar
Basil Keilani <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote:
>
Basil, I have no clue what "Anita" is and what radio it is talking about.
Perhaps because I am filtering the "anita" type noise out of my daily
dose of entertainment :-)
Basil, see what you want to see about the Mourabitoon or anyone else.
It is ok with me. I may see things differently. It's part of what makes us
who we are the way we see things, what and who we elect to believe :-)
bassem
>
>
>Basil
>
>
Nahla Osseiran
Nahla
Michel Najem <Mic...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:7k51lu$1b...@drn.newsguy.com...
Michel Najem
<Pine.OSF.4.10.99061...@alcor.concordia.ca>, Basil stated:"
>
>
> Bassem, I did not hear the Radio Show "Anita" is talking about,
>but a friend of mine in Tripoli told me they got fanatical, and this is
>what some from Tripoli say and the Syrians really lost their cool with the
>Mourabitoun, they did take religion in the wrong way. I forget the name
>of that Sheik so influential with the Mourabitoun, but, anyway, they are
>not representative of your average person, they were a sectarian group as
>I see it.
>
He has no clue about Lebanon and he wants to speak about it. Ya walad, there was
no Mourabitoun in Tripoli. Those you are talking about are Jama3it el Taw7id and
the sheikh is Sha3ban, who passed away not too long ago. To your own knowledge,
when the Syrian bombed them and invaded their areas, 250 of their men went to
the region controled by the LF. Now can you explain how the LF allows 250
fanatic muslims with their weapons in their areas? How come they gave them
shelter and food??
Maan M. Hamze
Michel Najem wrote in message <7k8er9$2f...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>"On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:34:22 -0400, in article
><Pine.OSF.4.10.99061...@alcor.concordia.ca>, Basil
stated:"
>>
>>
>> Bassem, I did not hear the Radio Show "Anita" is talking about,
>>but a friend of mine in Tripoli told me they got fanatical, and this is
>>what some from Tripoli say and the Syrians really lost their cool with the
>>Mourabitoun, they did take religion in the wrong way. I forget the name
>>of that Sheik so influential with the Mourabitoun, but, anyway, they are
>>not representative of your average person, they were a sectarian group as
>>I see it.
>>
>
>He has no clue about Lebanon and he wants to speak about it. Ya walad,
there was
>no Mourabitoun in Tripoli. Those you are talking about are Jama3it el
Taw7id and
>the sheikh is Sha3ban, who passed away not too long ago. To your own
knowledge,
>when the Syrian bombed them and invaded their areas, 250 of their men went
to
>the region controled by the LF. Now can you explain how the LF allows 250
>fanatic muslims with their weapons in their areas? How come they gave them
>shelter and food??
>
This is an easy one. In the Amal-PLO war, the best kept secret was that
Amal was armed by PLO to wage war against PLO and the PLO was waging war
against Amal to get money from Amal. The answer to your question is money.
Sha3ban paid the LF lots of money. Also, they are both (the LF and
al-Taw7eed) a bunch of fanatics, so they speak the same language of
fanaticism. Sha3ban went to them and told them about the coffers. The eyes
of the LF guys glittered with the gleam of opportunity. You know,
oppurtunities like that knock only once. The rest is history and more money
in some secret bank account.
Maan
Anita
Michel Najem <Michel...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:7k8er9$2f...@drn.newsguy.com...
> "On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:34:22 -0400, in article
> <Pine.OSF.4.10.99061...@alcor.concordia.ca>, Basil
stated:"
> >
> >
> > Bassem, I did not hear the Radio Show "Anita" is talking about,
> >but a friend of mine in Tripoli told me they got fanatical, and this is
> >what some from Tripoli say and the Syrians really lost their cool with
the
> >Mourabitoun, they did take religion in the wrong way. I forget the name
> >of that Sheik so influential with the Mourabitoun, but, anyway, they are
> >not representative of your average person, they were a sectarian group as
> >I see it.
> >
>
> He has no clue about Lebanon and he wants to speak about it. Ya walad,
there was
> no Mourabitoun in Tripoli. Those you are talking about are Jama3it el
Taw7id and
Thank Michel I missed the Tripoli Part! Mourabitoun in TRIPOLI? He must be
getting his sources from Canal+.
> the sheikh is Sha3ban, who passed away not too long ago. To your own
knowledge,
> when the Syrian bombed them and invaded their areas, 250 of their men went
to
> the region controled by the LF. Now can you explain how the LF allows 250
> fanatic muslims with their weapons in their areas? How come they gave them
> shelter and food??
>
> >
Anita
Michel Najem <Mic...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:7k4fa5$f...@drn.newsguy.com...
> "On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:02:20 +0200, in article , "Nahla stated:"
> >
> >This is part of a reply of yours to Basil on June 12, 1999:
> >
> >> I told you before and I say it again, once the LF command >found out
about
> >>the toxic waste in Lebanon it did it best to ship it out. Why >you
always
> >>manage to ignore the fact that toxic waste kept entering Lebanon >long
> >>after the LF was dissolved.
> >
> >Now, why should Basil take YOUR word for it and you won't take RAMZI'S
> >word for FORMOSA?
>
> I didn't say Formosa didn't give the SSNP money, I said Britian gave them
money.
> Basil shouldn't take my words at all, he should look for the truth on his
own.
> The newspapers articles are out there. The problem with Basil is he take a
small
> part of the story and he buils a movie on it based on a small tiny part of
teh
> truth.
>
> >Asking if Ramzi is God, in my opinion, borders on blasphemy! So, kindly
> >refrain from using such expressions.
>
> Each one of us is GOD, this is the way I see it. Is it blasphemy now to
use a
> lebanese
> expression? Since when you became so religious, i thought you are on the
secular
> side, or is it that you use secularism as a tool to reach something else ?
>
> >Regards,
> >Nahla
Golani M Golani
Basil Keilani wrote:
> And how much has the LF stolen from Lebanon
Not too much, Aun alone left Lebanon with $10 mill in his bag, not including whathe
had in his secret European account.
Golani M Golani
Anita wrote:
> Mniha ya Machel!
>
> Michel Najem <Mic...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> news:7k4fa5$f...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > "On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:02:20 +0200, in article , "Nahla stated:"
What about spending one quick night with him in Atlanta, Ga. matkhafi, his dudu
is small and mannuo mttahhar.
Basil Keilani
Bassem, vivre et laisse le vivre, ouais? Anita can yell as much as
she wants, of course. She reminds me of that old poster Rita the Assyrian
Lionness:) With all due respect to my Assyrian friends and confreres, who
are in the main good people and hard workers.
Basil
rachid
Why it is hard to accept the defeat of the Palestinians organizations
and their Lebanese allies in 1976? As most of us remember the Lebanese
resistance defeated those groups in Karantina, Tel Al-Zaatar, Jisr
El-Basha, Dbayeh, Nabaah, El-Koura, Upper Matn, Part of Alyeh, Jezyne.
Yes, the Lebanese resistance faced a tough onslaught at the beginning of
1976 but after the Karantena battle it started the drive to liberate
Lebanon.
How can you justify that the Syrian tanks and army crushed the
Palestinians and the (leftists?! SSNP, Mourabetoun, Jind Allah, Ekhwaan
are leftists?)? Can you verify that the Syrians liberated Tel El-Zaatar,
El-Koura, etc? Or was it the other way around? If the Syrians were
helping the Lebanese why they did not stop the massacres in Damour,
Akkar, Bekaa, Chekka? Those massacres took place before the spring of
1976.
Do you remember the famous speech of President Assad of 1976? Did not he
say that the Syrians armed the Palestinians and the their Lebanese
collaborators with arms and fighters but to no avail? Did not he say
that they came to him asking for more support but he decided to use the
Syrian Army to intervene and stop the successful liberation drive by the
Lebanese resistance (Kataeb, Ahrar, etc.)?
Do you remember also the famous speech of Mr. Kamal Jumblat, head of the
Anita
Basil Keilani <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.10.990616...@alcor.concordia.ca...
>
> Bassem, vivre et laisse le vivre, ouais? Anita can yell as much as
Actually I never yell, I speak very softly, and have a sexy voice I am told!
Anita
Golani M Golani <Aljo...@Syria.arab> wrote in message
news:3767DA47...@Syria.arab...
As amatter of fact Michel is an excellent love maker, and his Manhood is
vrey big, the only thing that is bigger is your Lssan il mijwi!
Golani M Golani
join the gays club of Canada, he will help you to get 1/2 price for 2. The
problem b=is both Basil Kailania nd Michel Najem are passive gays, ya3ni
maf3oul bihi.
Golani M Golani
Anita wrote:
> Basil Keilani <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote in message
> news:Pine.OSF.4.10.990616...@alcor.concordia.ca...
> >
> > Bassem, vivre et laisse le vivre, ouais? Anita can yell as much as
>
> Actually I never yell, I speak very softly, and have a sexy voice I am told!
A passive male motherfucker??? you knowin the mE we do not like homosexuals.
Anita
Golani M Golani <Aljo...@Syria.arab> wrote in message
>
>
> Anita wrote:
>
> > Basil Keilani <b_k...@alcor.concordia.ca> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.OSF.4.10.990616...@alcor.concordia.ca...
> > >
> > > Bassem, vivre et laisse le vivre, ouais? Anita can yell as much as
> >
> > Actually I never yell, I speak very softly, and have a sexy voice I am
told!
>
>
>
> A passive male motherfucker??? you knowin the mE we do not like
homosexuals.
Then why do you telling guys on SCL "F**k you", doesnt that make a homo too.
If I was a guy, why did you offer to F me in a previuos post!
Golani M Golani
Anita wrote:
>
> Then why do you telling guys on SCL "F**k you", doesnt that make a homo too.
> If I was a guy, why did you offer to F me in a previuos post!
>
It was a mater of cursing you asshole, who would put his dick on an ugly
creature like you. Of course except Michel Najem since you admitted his a good
love maker.
Ghassan Haddad
- Before today, I had never used the word "zaīm" on this newsgroup, nor do I
think that the founder and all members of the SSNP are infallible. The party is
not a personality cult. I was a subscriber to the philosophy before 1975. At
the end of the horrifying war that made everyone act like a savage at one point
or another, I am still very proud of the party - all things considered. I will
discuss any issue and nothing about the party is taboo.
- In a truly secular state all sects would have the opportunity to be equally
represented in state institutions, such the parliament and the executive
branch. The GSS (those nice guys who run such institutions as the Khiam turture
center) declared yesterday that they would not oppose a Palestinian MK, Mr.
Tibi, sitting on the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. That was in
the Jerusalem Post. On their web site you can vote on whether Mr. Barak should
take steps to bring Arab legislators into the government coalition, or not. At
best this is sectarianism, and at worst it is outright racism. A secular state
does not award building permits to a sect and denies them to others. It does
not require one sect to serve in the military and not another. It does not have
a special force made out of yeshiva students. A secular state would not be
Internationally known as the "Jewish State." A secular sate does get motivated
to negotiate peace because they don't want to have a certain sect's population
reach parity with another.
- I have always seen the distinction between the belief and those who interpret
its scriptures. I know very well the difference between a devout Jew, Christian
or Moslem and a militant fanatic.
- The is no myth about the state of the Syrian Arab Republic attacking the
National Movement to prevent a radical leftist state from possibly taking shape
next door to it. At the end of May 1976 the Kataeb and their allies were doing
very poorly, their survival was in question.
- I chose to have a dialogue with you because in your moderate and articulate
way of supporting one side, you give legitimacy to some of those who post
hateful messages on this board. They have made uncompromising hateful
statements regarding the SSNP. You haven't. I look forward to seeing more
people like you on SCL.
TaHya Sourya
YaHya Loubnan
Ghassan
____________________________________
Subject: Re: The SSNP - sectarian?!
jose...@hotmail.com Wrote on 15 June 1999 Message-id:
<7k6hqs$2rn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
<<<<<<Yes, the idea of Eretz Israel is older than the SSNP, but you don't want
to see here is that pure adherence to a set of religous principles is not what
drove the creation of modern Israel. Israel today is a secular society (as
secular as any society can be, when only two sects have full citizenship
rights). I will go back to an earlier message of yours (this thread is getting
to be way too taxing on my time), and say that no one can claim the high moral
ground. SSNP members did things that you are not proud of, and even allied
itself politically at time with parties that you don't want to acknowledge, but
these are the facts, like them or not. I am pointing those out to you.
Oeverall, the SSNP proved to be one of the cleanest parties around throughout
the Lebanese conflict, but this does not absolve from the bad things that were
committed in its name. This sort of stuff comes with the
territory. If I did not believe in that, I would not be able to sit at
the same table with SSNP members. One of the things that I always
remind my SSNP friends of, is that they still cannot take the high
moral ground, as long as they do not clear the issue of anti-Judaism.
They dismiss the topic as non-important, but I think that what they're
telling me is that this is a taboo'ed topic, given the current
alliances they have in Lebanon today.>>>>>>>
<<<<<<You are defending party line. You're also holding Saade above all
reproach. No one should be above criticizm. What would you say about a party
whose Za'eem is presented as infallible? I do not have a party allegiance, so I
can say that, who knows, I may be defending my party no matter what if I had
partisan inclinations.>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<Separate the sect from the sectarians who are doing the harm. Some of
my best friends are Jewish, and some are doing great work for Palestinian
refugees. Should I blame them for what some of the people who are part of their
religion are doing? Just as in Christianity and Islam, you will find many
interpretations of Judaism. Given the population of Israel, and the number of
Jews who call home somewhere else, even though there is a law in Israel that
gives them citizenship rights, the only logical conclusion I can make is that
the majority of Jews does not believe that Israel is their home as prescribed
by the religion.>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<I am not labeling anyone anything. I am pointing to his writings, and
to the SSNP web site which point to the religion as the main problem. You
should work on changing that to change the perception.>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<I don't mean Jews in general, I mean Israelis. Inclusion would help
solve our problems. If the areas military problems are worked out, then there
would be very little reason for all the dictators who have been sucking the
blood of the people for more than 50 years to continue to exist. Israel is the
best thing that ever happened to them. Sectarianism in Lebanon would have been
eradicated a long time ago, if the issue of Israel and the Palestinians was not
used to polarize the people around religious axis.>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<I don't resent the SSNP, but I do question your right to treat it, and
its members as if they were above reproach. I also don't understand this
mentality (not yours, but certainly that of every single SSNP supporter on
SCL), who automatically throws the "attacking" label, when the discussion is
not one-sided on the side of the SSNP. Isn't there any room left for
discussion? does the SSNP walk on water? does anyone?>>>>>>>>
<<<<<<<<See above. BTW, one last comment here on this myth that the Assad tanks
Michel Najem
"Maan stated:"
>><Pine.OSF.4.10.99061...@alcor.concordia.ca>, Basil
>stated:"
>>>
>>>
>>> Bassem, I did not hear the Radio Show "Anita" is talking about,
>>>but a friend of mine in Tripoli told me they got fanatical, and this is
>>>what some from Tripoli say and the Syrians really lost their cool with the
>>>Mourabitoun, they did take religion in the wrong way. I forget the name
>>>of that Sheik so influential with the Mourabitoun, but, anyway, they are
>>>not representative of your average person, they were a sectarian group as
>>>I see it.
>>>
>>
>>He has no clue about Lebanon and he wants to speak about it. Ya walad,
>there was
>>no Mourabitoun in Tripoli. Those you are talking about are Jama3it el
>Taw7id and
>knowledge,
>>when the Syrian bombed them and invaded their areas, 250 of their men went
>to
>>the region controled by the LF. Now can you explain how the LF allows 250
>>fanatic muslims with their weapons in their areas? How come they gave them
>>shelter and food??
>>
>This is an easy one. In the Amal-PLO war, the best kept secret was that
>Amal was armed by PLO to wage war against PLO and the PLO was waging war
>against Amal to get money from Amal.
That wasn't a secret at all, Amal was taking money from the PLO since it was
created.
> The answer to your question is money.
Wrong it is not money. It is the Syrian occupation.
>Sha3ban paid the LF lots of money.
Prove it and stop being Lebanese spreading rumors and lies left and right.
> Also, they are both (the LF and
>al-Taw7eed) a bunch of fanatics, so they speak the same language of
>fanaticism.
Wow you are amazing, day after day your critical analyses is falling apart.
Taw7ed called for an Islamic Republic and the LF called for equality for all.
> Sha3ban went to them and told them about the coffers. The eyes
>of the LF guys glittered with the gleam of opportunity. You know,
>oppurtunities like that knock only once. The rest is history and more money
>in some secret bank account.
Yeah right, prove it one more time. Sha3ban didn't go to them. How about you and
Basil look at what really went there before you talk. Sha3ban was taken to
Syria. His guys fled to the LF area, they were given shelter, food and money.
>Maan
jose...@hotmail.com
zaw...@aol.com (Ghassan Haddad) wrote:
> Joseph,
>
> - Before today, I had never used the word "zaīm" on this newsgroup,
nor do I
> think that the founder and all members of the SSNP are infallible.
The party is
> not a personality cult. I was a subscriber to the philosophy before
1975. At
> the end of the horrifying war that made everyone act like a savage at
one point
> or another, I am still very proud of the party - all things
considered. I will
> discuss any issue and nothing about the party is taboo.
I am not saying that you did, I am stating some of what I've heard in
the past (and present on SCL). Yes, the war made everyone act like a
savage at one point or another. You seem to be in the minority though
on SCL. When someone (not you), says something to the effect of: 'the
SSNP is above them all', it leaves very little room for discussion, or
acknowledging the things that did go wrong. I don't believe in the
SSNP's unification ideology, but I believe that as long as that part is
toned down, there's room for the SSNP in the Lebanese political system.
If you want to lobby for the eventual unification of the people of the
fertile crescent, go for it, just do it in a peaceful manner. Most of
the rest of your secular agenda is wonderful. Violence is not
acceptable.
I am not saying anything different. Strangely enough, a state can be
secular and sectarian at the same time. It can remove religion as a
basis of government (and civil laws), hence the secular part, but at
the same time discriminate in the form of restricting citizenship,
army, etc., hence the sectarian label. For instance, if the fertile
crescent is united, and religion is removed as a basis for government,
it would make it secular, but if citizenship, army service, special
taxes, etc. are restricted to certain sects, that would make sectarian.
> - I have always seen the distinction between the belief and those who
interpret
> its scriptures. I know very well the difference between a devout Jew,
Christian
> or Moslem and a militant fanatic.
Good.
> - The is no myth about the state of the Syrian Arab Republic
attacking the
> National Movement to prevent a radical leftist state from possibly
taking shape
> next door to it. At the end of May 1976 the Kataeb and their allies
were doing
> very poorly, their survival was in question.
Yes, at the end of May 1976, the Lebanese Front, was not doing very
well. The future was not certain, and up to that point, Assad was still
supporting the National Movement. Jumblatt decided to speed things up,
knowing very well that Assad was not going to agree with him, but he
wanted to have a bigger piece of the pie when negotiations start. He
launched the campaign in the North, to divide up the National
Movement's limited military resources. At that point, the flow of arms
and ammunition from Assad to the National Movement stopped. This is all
detailed in a series of speeches by Assad and Khaddam (reference:
AnNahar archives, which I would glady send you, but it's my only copy,
and I inherited that one). There was no single Syrian tank on the side
of the defenders of the North (and I am very confident in the use of
the term DEFENDER, because that's what it was like: defending a neutral
area against an attack). There wasn't a single Syrian tank on the side
of the Lebanese Front when the defenders gained the upper hand, and
turned defense into attack against the retreating National Movement.
The Assad direct involvement did not come until later in the summer,
through joint operations against the PLO, and the National Movement.
> - I chose to have a dialogue with you because in your moderate and
articulate
> way of supporting one side, you give legitimacy to some of those who
post
> hateful messages on this board. They have made uncompromising hateful
> statements regarding the SSNP. You haven't. I look forward to seeing
more
> people like you on SCL.
I am not attempting to put legitimacy on the face of hate, on the
contrary. I try to expose hate for what it is, no matter what political
party it belongs to. I don't belong to the LF, but at the same time, I
am not going to deny the LF's right to defend the Lebanese way of life
(and we can argue what that means). That does not give the LF a license
to commit murder in Sabra and Shatila, and in Amchit, and in Jounieh,
but there was insanity in Lebanon, and one can claim that rogue
elements in the LF were responsible for these acts (and in most cases
they were). Most of the LF people I know are honorable fighters, who
would never cause harm to anyone on sectarian basis. Some of them have
given their life, not whle robbing and killing, but defending Lebanon's
integrity. You will also find that most of those who are still alive,
would not hesitate for one second to be part of a political system that
advocates throwing out the sectarian formula. No matter how much you
talk me into the purity of the SSNP, the fact is that the SSNP would
have been powerless to stop the savages from killing me and my family,
had they broken through the line into Batroun (as proven by the
hundreds, who included some SSNP members, that they massacred on
sectarian basis in Chekka and Koura). As I write these words, I cannot
be but grateful for those individuals who helped prevent a disaster,
and I would be an SOB if I did not defend the right to defend our area
against genocide. Someone else may have a similar story for their area
as well (and this time it might involve the LF as the bad guys), and
they would be right, because the good guys were never able to control
the bad guys on the battlfield, and I measure that by the results,
which is what counts at the end of the day (as opposed to nice party
slogans).
--Joseph
> TaHya Sourya
> YaHya Loubnan
> Ghassan
--
Rabih Jabbour
> I am not throwing the labels of killers on SNP, they are. How about if you go
> back and dig for one example what happened in koura on August 12-13 1984 , it
> was a thursday. I will give you the outcome of those 2 days, 15 dead and 70
> wounded. It is to note, during the battles between the SSNP and Marada, the SSNP
> members dismantle and stole the equipment of the broadcasting TV Station in
> Fay3. It is to not that Minister of Media at that time, Joseph Skaf declared:"
> Those equipment are for teh government and must be returned." They never
> returned them.
Hello Michel,
Eventhough i don;t adhere to the SSNP ideology, one has to really state
some facts here. Frist of all, The station in Fey3 was controlled by the
Marda until the august attack of 1984, eventhough the village itself was
controlled by the SSNP as you well know. No equipment were moved out the
Fey3 station, but it was used by the SSNp afterthen. So basically no
equipments were stoled, but rather some of them were moved before the
attack on alkoura to `ayto station in Zgharta.
AS for the dead people, it is really interesting to see how this attack
was building up. Michel i saw it in my own eyes everyday till it
started.Here is my share on that incident. In around June of 1984 the
Syrian check points in the area controlled by SSNP in Alkoura were
withdrwan, except for a check point in 3aba. All the sudden their presence
was less obivous than usual is. Al marda in Bsarma, dahr al-ain, Kousba
start to having check points all over the place and instigation against
SSNP members were mounting. August came and everyone was waiting for the
ticking bomb to explode and it did with the attacks on kfer 3aka, bettram
and 3aba. SSNP were out numbered by al marda, though they held their
position strongly for a week. We were trapped in my hometown all this
time and we knew who are outside controlling the area, it was the
SSNP.ironically, al marda bombarded churches in three villages at least.
they anticipated that the attack will not take more than four days as was
stated by Robert Frangieh back then, read al nahra archive. But it took
them more than the planned time with the Syrian watching from behind and
siding with al marda. This was obvious when the logistic support for the
SSNP were held at Syrain chekc point in tripole, al abrad camp and akkar.
Once the Syrain knew that they time is runing out for almarda they let go
of the SSNP support, which was a decisive point in that battle. Zgharta
was bombarded and it vacinity whihc forced late S. Frangieh to ask for the
Syrain intervention and not the other way around. Al marda was assisted by
Lebanese army members who were from Zgharta Alzawieh. A lot of AL marda
members were killed and only four members from the SSNP were killed. One
of them was a known commander by nickname "tha`ir". This is factuall
account that is supported by name people from alkoura from all siedes of
the political spectrum. SSNP did not kill any civilian members in their
counter attack, as far as al koura teritorries.
> The LF is one of the major party that represents the Christians with a LEbanese
> agenda, what is wrong with that? And who told you that we deny the fact that the
> majority of the LF members are Christians. When you are attacked because of your
> religion, for sure you will have a party that the majority of its members belong
> to that religion.
There is always needs for the existing neccessities, I find nothing worng
in having a homogenous group as long as it represents the interest of that
group.
> > The SSNP does not cater to one sect. It caters to all groups who
> >belong to the fertile crescent. Ali Qanso is not from the Koura.
> >There are many members from Bkfaya and you admitted that before. That is
> >not the Koura.
>
> Ya khaye, I wasn't arguing the fact that SSNP cater to one sect or not. I was
> saying that the SSNP party is sectarian and worst than that, it killed Sunnis in
> Tripoli, Chrisitans in Koura, Shiaa in Beirut,... they have united the Lebanese
> by killing them all. What I am arguing is stop portraying them as Saints, we
> know their criminal records.
SSNp was not saint in any means, war was againt all and they were part of
that equation.
>
> That is a funny statement, I know a Muslim friend and he is a well known figure
> in Lebanon and outside and he says He only respect the LF party. Any person,
> from any religion is welcomed in the LF if he believe that Lebanon is a free,
> independent, and sovereign country. Any Lebanese who believe in the 10452 square
> km as Lebanese Republic for all its citizen. Any person that believes that
> Lebanon must and should remain free is welcomed in the LF. Any person who
> believes that Lebanon shouldn't be part of any other country is welcomed in teh
> LF.
Out of all militias that participated in the civil war of Lebanon, LF
stands alone in its effective social support and strong economic growth
that were self supported. Basically, they built social and economic
institutions in their own areas that surpassed in their performance the
government ones, IMO.
RAbih
>
> >
> >
> >Basil
Basil Keilani
Yes, Ma'an, Sha3ban and the LF are the kind of politics we have to
put behind us and the Mourabitoun, they are not what is needed for forward
looking youth.
Basil
Basil Keilani
Well, it is simple the LF, a fanatical group, that is against
Syria, helps another fanatical group that is against Syria. It is called
Masla7a Siyassiyeh. I mean many of your fellows massacred Christians, you
are fanatical to your own group and so closed to others, but yet you use
the name of Lebanon and Lebanese "Nationalism".
Basil
Basil Keilani
Rachid, you spoke about the SSNP being a religion. Well, the SSNP
does not tell you how to worship God, Salah (prayer) comes from the Arabic
meaning to connect. If you are a Muslim or Christian connecting to God,
engaging in Tawhid, Islam, through Al Risalatein that is part of our
mujtama3 and morality and there is not a move to against it. The SSNP
upholds the idea of La Ikrah Fi Deen, meaning you must truly believe
in a certain sect, mathab to be part of that mathhab and there must be a
freedom of religious belief. Now, the old traditional way of forcing
religion on the people, dividing people between sects, tribes is not what
the SSNP agrees with will help bring our societies into a progressive
setting.
Of course, those who are not in agreement, but are from the lands,
the SSNP will try to convince. Not everyone agrees. Of course, if anyone
forcefully tries to attack the party and does not let them operate, or
cracks down on their members, they should defend themselves. If they are
"religion" as you say, because they have a system, beliefs, those beliefs
do not contradict being a Muslim or Christian. It is interparadigmatic,
if you will. People in the SSNP know not everyone agrees, it is about
convincing and dialogue. What will bring people together is not sectarian
parties and politics.
Basil
Tahia Souria
Basil Keilani
3affak, Ghassan. It is good to see you active a bit on the group.
What I have seen is a major feeling of being "routed" by some on the SCL
with Ramzi, Nahle, you, John, and I making them feel the heat politically.
Of course, we do not mean harm to others, is the message, I think.
Because they are us, and we are them. We are all human beings who are
sons of the lands in question. And their messages are not in tune with
the Lebanon of 1999 or Syria of 1999. Times have changed. When you
advertise of Al Hayat newspaper, it says for your advertisements in Syria
and Lebanon, meaning they are on one track. Things are not static; they
are dynamic. I hope you are well, you and your family.
Basil
Basil Keilani
The intention is that people should not divide people and want to
follow the Zionist way of seeing that growth comes from having people
divided based on their mathhab. We can not accept that. I have my hat
off towards Ghassan, John, Ramzi, Nahla, though they may not be part of
any party, they really care about the people on the lands, and seeing them
together regardless of religion. We respect, of course, people to pray
with the Shumu3 to Yassou3, or to ask the help of the Awliya and pray in
Mosques, it is a beautiful part of our history and psyche.
I mean I am an Arab, but there is nothing mystical about being an
Arab, really, but when you speak of religion, that is a personal
relationship between you and God, Jehovah, El, Adonai (Canaanite-Hebrew
word), Buddha... We respect all faiths, if we truly respect human beings.
But we do not respect the faith of connecting to Transcendance when we
build huge walls.
It does not mean if the SSNP has an alliance with the Syrian
government or some Ba'athists as so many in Lebanon do, that they agree
politically on all points. What they agree on in terms of ideology is
that they are not sectarian. But now the Ba'ath's economics are looking
more similar to SSNP economical views, and teaching of history. But they
still hold the power.
In the region there is the Syrian military power,
and the Israeli one. Do you side with ibn al 3am or al ikhwan?
That is the point. You can not be asked to be suicidal, destroy your
party, jeopardize the population into an internal war, as some are asking
Lebanese. We are brothers and must gradually work our differences.
Why build borders between sects, and the people. We think the Ba'ath
should open up more. They are but they are quite slow. People must
be practical. Do not expect changes to happen in one day.
Basil
Maan M. Hamze
Maan
Basil Keilani wrote in message ...
Golani M Golani
Basil Keilani wrote:
> 3affak, Ghassan.
Watch it Gahassan he is Christian convert Gay.
Deer balak minnuh, tara hada mi7tal kbeer
Basil Keilani
Golani, how do you know who is gay or not? I take it you have
experience in gay bars, but I am sorry I do not go to your places and nor
do I drink. Speak for yourself, inta wa7ad bala zoq wa 3ar 3ala 7adaritna
al 3arabiya al ijtima3ia. Wala inta fashalit kul tamaniyat al umahat al
3arabiya. Isti7i min damak, wa it3alam il adab, qabal ma ya'ti ajalak al
ma7toum. Hal Tafham loughat Al Dad ya qaleel al maru'a?
Basil
SinelfiLe1
> It is good to see you active a bit on the group.
and it is much beeter to see you ,you and your NAZI SSNP IDEA go down with
syria and its filth and your arabs and islam the backward hillbilly criminal
idea and fanatic believes islam = terror
Be A Man Among Men And Fight For Free Lebanon
+Live Free Or Die+
Sinelfile1
SinelfiLe1
>I have my hat
>off towards Ghassan, John, Ramzi, Nahla, though they may not be part of
>any party, they really care about the people on the lands
fuck you and all of them in particular this whore Nahla you and your NAZI
party the qawmieh you will never see the light
death to great and small SYRIA
SinelfiLe1
>Watch it Gahassan he IS Gay.
>Deer balak minnuh, tara hada mi7tal kbeer
I have to agree with you Basil he is fag and most of all he is qawmeh mother
fucker ayr feeh wa be souriya taba3o
SinelfiLe1
>Basil
>
>Tahia Souria
>
KESS EKHTAK 3ALA EKHET SOURIYA
YAHYA LUBNAN WATTAN HURR MUSTAKELL