Top agent in CIA's 'secret war' dies
ya...@yahoo.com
Top agent in CIA's 'secret war' dies
By Richard S. Ehrlich
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
April 15, 2003
BANGKOK -- Jack Shirley, a legendary former CIA official who helped
run America's failed "secret war" in Laos, died yesterday in the Thai
beach resort of Pattaya after a long bout with cancer.
He was 76, according to his Thai wife, Pen.
"Most people don't realize, the CIA was created to do the things
the country couldn't do out in the open," Mr. Shirley was once quoted
as saying.
"Nothing we did was legal. Everything we did was illegal.
'Plausible deniability' was the name of the game."
Mr. Shirley, an American, reached his professional zenith during
the Vietnam War, when the CIA armed minority ethnic Hmong tribesmen in
Laos against communist Pathet Lao guerrillas and North Vietnamese
fighters.
During the horror of those years, the U.S. unleashed on Laos the
heaviest aerial bombardment any country had ever suffered.
Nevertheless, many of his Laotian friends remained loyal to him after
the war was lost.
In recent years, he was a lively personality inside the small,
quiet Madrid Bar favored by retired U.S. government and military
officials on Patpong Road in Bangkok's red-light district.
Mr. Shirley, who settled in Thailand, regaled listeners with
tales of gossip, scandal, adventures and bumbling within the CIA and
the armed forces.
"He had a very sharp wit and a very good sense of humor. He had a
real, genuine affection for Asia and its people," said Canadian
screenwriter Dave Walker.
Mr. Shirley expressed occasional bitterness over the Vietnam War.
"Jack complained about a lot of the [U.S.] bureaucracy during the
war and the needless loss of life," Mr. Walker said.
During Washington's 15 years of trying to contain communism, more
than 1 million Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians were estimated
killed alongside more than 50,000 Americans.
It was a time when "hundreds of CIA and other officers in
god-awful circumstances did their [best] to do what they were told was
their duty," wrote historian Harold P. Ford.
Mr. Shirley joined the CIA in its early years after World War II.
The CIA, meanwhile, slipped into impoverished, landlocked Laos in
1954 after French colonialists retreated. For America, Laos became a
line drawn across lush mountains to stop North Vietnam's communism
from infecting the region.
Starting in 1961, Mr. Shirley and other CIA officers gave weapons
and cash to rugged, indigenous Hmong tribesmen former allies of the
French and aimed them at Vietnamese communists encroaching into Laos.
Vietnamese used eastern Laos as a so-called "Ho Chi Minh Trail"
to zigzag across the border during attacks against U.S. forces in
South Vietnam.
While fighting for the CIA, the Hmong's fragile culture was
mostly obliterated and thousands of them perished. Thousands of others
fled to refugee camps in Thailand.
Washington, however, was pleased that the Hmong disrupted the Ho
Chi Minh Trail and saved American lives.
Mr. Shirley worked in Laos for the CIA from 1961-68, according to
the investigative, archival Web site, NameBase.
"After the 1973 truce, the CIA's cowboys and their proxies
shrugged their shoulders and went to Thailand or the U.S. to retire on
their pensions. They left behind a country ... full of bomb craters,
antipersonnel bomblets, and amputees on crutches," NameBase says.
One of Mr. Shirley's closest partners was a fabled CIA legend
Anthony Poshepny, aka Tony Poe who became immortalized as the insane,
bloodthirsty intelligence officer Colonel Kurtz, played by Marlon
Brando in the film "Apocalypse Now."
"He [Poshepny] once said he was collecting heads for humanitarian
reasons. He had been paying a bounty for ears [of dead communists in
Laos], until he ran into a little boy with his ears missing," Mr.
Shirley told the San Francisco Weekly.
"The boy said his father had cut them off and sold them [to
Poshepny for a reward]. Tony was so shocked, he gave the boy a few
hundred kip [a small amount of Laotian currency], and immediately
decided he would accept only heads from then on," Mr. Shirley said.
Source: http://washingtontimes.com/world/20030415-83958373.htm
thanouxay
people by cutting their ears including those of kids.
Sok dee
"ya...@yahoo.com" <ya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<42gubvs253jeq6pg6...@4ax.com>...
Pao
compassion...ect...
Who is committing crime against who? And I wonder who killed all those
tens of thousands Hmong in Xiengkhouang/Sam Neua areas - not by the
Pathet Lao, one thing that I am sure. But who, I really wonder.
There are only two suspects - the Communist North Vietnamese or the
CIA? Or the KGB?
What about those who died at the hard labour camp? The King, Queen and
the Crown Prince? and many others... But I suppose that is not a
crime, isn't it. No... not a crime... these people died from natural
cause, as some people would say. But the CIA commit crimes. Vang Pao
commit crimes - is that right? Of course, you would say so. But
Souvannaphouma did not commit any crime! Even though Souvanna let he
CIA to operate in Laos, to bomb Laos. And who is the Commander In
Chief for the Royal Lao Army? If not Souvanna then who else? So, if
Souvanna's generals who take order from him to fight the North
Vietnamese Communists invading Laos, commit crimes agaisnt the Lao
people... but I have never heard that Souvanna had committed any
crime?
Thanouxay, you know better than that. Don't put yourself down so much
because there is ALWAYS two sides in a coin.
Whose ears? May be you better tell us more! And I may even tell some
stories about people who have their head blown off...or their gut cut
open with the intestines hanging out... and by who?
If this guy commit crimes against the Lao people, may be Laos does not
need NTR with Mr. Jack Shirley's people - the Americans!
Pao
than...@hotmail.com (thanouxay) wrote in message news:<37ed8460.03051...@posting.google.com>...
casalao
you've spoken like two good old chums.
casalao
lukane
to hell in laos right now.
"casalao" <casa...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:mGgwa.3772$6P6....@twister.socal.rr.com...
makmo
there is a 'soc.culture.'whining" hmong', i think!
this is scl about the LAO people!
no cheers!
thanouxay
There is nothing wrong to that. Dr. Pao regret the passing away of
this guy and was shocked that I have no tear.
Sok dee
"casalao" <casa...@san.rr.com> wrote in message news:<mGgwa.3772$6P6....@twister.socal.rr.com>...
drsouk
"thanouxay" <than...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
37ed8460.0305...@posting.google.com...
Xay Siengsavanh
I wouldn't go that far if I were you. Laos is nowhere close to "hell".
It's a beautiful place fills with warm-hearted Laotians. It only lacks
of better management.
Wouldn't you want to visit Laos sometimes? If it's hell like you said,
then I guess you'd never want to return to "hell" now wouldn't you?
Xay Siengsavanh
PS. As for the CIA guy, no tears from me either.
pizone
… the same as lao-deng peng louk leng tin meu khong keo-deng for 30 + 28 pi leo.
pizone
"drsouk" <drs...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<b9st7h$5vb$1...@news-reader12.wanadoo.fr>...
makmo
> drsouk,
>
> ? the same as lao-deng peng louk leng tin meu khong keo-deng for 30 + 28 pi leo.
>
> pizone
-----------
another insult against your own birthplace? you're sicker than a sick
monkey! you really make the lao people proud to not have people like
you around, Saathoo Derrrrr........phra chao phaen din lao euy! you
can go to hell soon and no one lao person will miss you "phee bah pa
saat!"
Cheers!
love laos...
Pao
No shocked at all. It is as expected. Any other reaction would be
totally suprise and un-Thanouxay! but not this 'no tear" stuff. And
any other response from me would have shocked Thanouxay as well!
But I wonder what happen to that ear stuff?
Pao
than...@hotmail.com (thanouxay) wrote in message news:<37ed8460.0305...@posting.google.com>...
Pao
> > -----------------
> there is a 'soc.culture.'whining" hmong', i think!
> this is scl about the LAO people!
>
> no cheers!
Where is the 'soc.culture.'whining" hmong'?
Are you sure that you rae talking abvout the right planet? May be you
are completely off track, and loss in space.
For your information, SCL was propose and created in 1993with the
folowing Charter:
"The purpose of the soc.culture.laos is to offer to the Lao community
at large, and to other interested parties, a CENTER for information
exchange on research issues on cultural, economical, and social
development inside and outside Laos. College/University students,
research fellows, staff, and instructors, agencies or organizations
doing business in Laos, and possibly independent consultants are,
but not limited to, our primary targets."
Pao
and more...
From: Troy Prasouvo (tr...@prasouvo.com)
Subject: Re: Soc.Culture.Laos News Group
View: Complete Thread (4 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.culture.laos
Date: 1999/01/15
Sabydii Alex ..
Here's a brief history of SCL and how it got started....
Some time ago .. back in the summer months in 1993 .. a
student from
University of California Irvine name Kag Khetsavanh .. and his mentor
..
Director of Minority Affair for the University of California Irvine
Dean's
office name Mr. Prany Sananikone were talking and question were
being ask
as to why there were no newsgroup about and for Lao people. If you
follow
the development of the internet you will see the timescale as the
popularity
of the internet back then compare to now. Thus, ai Prany encourage
Kag
to start such a thing ... sine kag is then a computer science major
students
at UCI .. According to ai Prany " Build a mouse trap and let Lao
people
beat a path to it . if it works .. then Lao has a bright futuer" ...
which
such an idea Kag .. on July 2nd of 1993 .. write what is call an RFD
(request for discussion) .. to form soc.culture.laos
This is a process whereby all newsgroup must goes thru for the
creation to
be formalized. You may see exactly what was in the RFD and the date,
time,
and how it was proposed at the following links ...
http://www.hensa.ac.uk/ftp/mirrors/uunet/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/soc/
soc.culture.laos
The RFD started the discussion .. the pros and cons of why and
why
should Lao people not have such a newsgroup. Jan Isley who is a
volunteer
vote taker back then .. turn around and put out a couple CFV (call
for
vote) on the internet .. this is done with formal taley kept for
records
,etc .. for this newly proposed - unmoderated SCL. The voting
process
takes place from about the 1st of September 1993 to the deadline of
midnight 9/21/93 a three weeks voting process. At which time the
vote
came in and here is the result:
RESULT
soc.culture.laos vote results - 203 valid votes
Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- -- ----- : -----
: -------------------------------------------
174 29 : Yes Yes : Yes : soc.culture.laos
2 invalid votes
With 2/3 of the vote being the YES majority .. we pass on the
22nd of
september 1993, hence: the begining of SCL. Now that the vote is in
and we
have what is call an Unmoderated Laos news group, we try to set a date
(official date) for the birth of SCL ... thus on
September 29, 1993. It was propose and publicized that SCL is born!
so
the date is 9/29/93 being the birth of SCL. For a number of
years ..
at least 3 or so years .... our newsgroup were being archive .. with
the
gracious help from NECTEC (National Electronic and Computer Technology
Center ) of Thailand. I have not kept up to date with this so I
don't know
if the archive is still there or not. Which brings us to a crutial
question
of .. how are we going to help each other archive such ... remember
we have
SCL, and SCH to archive. SCH by the way is soc.culture.Hmong ..
started a
bit later for our hmong brothers and sisters .. information of which
you may
find at the above link. You may like to archive this newsgroup if
you can
set up a mirror site or have some free disk space and don't mind the
help..
We can use anyhelp we can .. Please refer to LaoNet group of
volunteer ..
you may find us at http://www.global.lao.net our new,
beautiful
web site is now in service and we are slowly building it . thanks to
Noy
from Rhode Island who is one of the volunteer of Webteam at
lao...@lao.net
I hope the above will give you a better insight into the brief
history
of SCL and SCH . Once we are done with the FAQ (Frequently asked
Question of SCL ) you will find this infor posted here and on web
sites.
Want to help me ? *grin*
Hak hpaang,
Thao Troy
p.s. Please contact laonet spoke person .. Houmphanh Thongvilu at
p...@lao.net or email to lao...@lao.net for more info and please
don't
forget to check satjadham at satj...@usa.net or Laovision at
http://www.laovision.net Keep in mind that all of these
are
volunteer work for khon lao .. by khon lao .. and we are looking for
new
member all the time .... if you feel like being a leader and a doer ..
please check into it. We will be part of the consortium of Lao
organization to form one of the representative lao group in the
capital hill
.. which are being work on ..
p.p.s Sorry for the lengthy post ...... .and for taking up your
bandwidth
... :)
drsouk
"pizone" <PIZ...@HOTMAIL.COM> a écrit dans le message de news:
94c91d3c.03051...@posting.google.com...
> drsouk,
>
> . the same as lao-deng peng louk leng tin meu khong keo-deng for 30 + 28
pumakone
He was taking part in the order to bomb Laos and her people. According
to certain ethnologist Laos were thought to comprise of 119 ethnic
groups before the bombings. There are 68 left for the PDRLao to count
and be blamed for the missing groups...
Anyway, there is one consistancy among some 'foreign legions' and
CIAs, they own bars night clubs and brothels. Many married prostitutes
>>> there is nothing wrong with this, except that DrPao shouldn't
compare those that blew women and children to pulp, with Bhudda's
Teachings >>> 'pom_vi_han_4'.
Lao people who live in Xiengkhouang and Huaphanh might be poor and
humble, but they never commit a horrific crimes such as the bombings
of that magnitude.
thanouxay
This is a fact of life. You, others and I are wondering what had the
poor and humble multi-ethnic peoples of Houaphan, Phongsaly,
Xiengkhouang, Khammouane, Borikhanxay, Sékong, Savannakhet, Attopeu,
Saravane, Champassack and the rest of Laos did to the USA to merit 3,8
tons of bombs which brough their villages back to the stone age?
While there are others including Dr, Pao who are crying for the death
of this guys who with other friends had been causing so much pain and
damage to Lao life and property.
This is a fact of life and this is also democracy and freedom of
expression...
Let them cry, lets rebuild our country and make it more beautiful than
ever.
Sok dee
uu2p...@aol.com (pumakone) wrote in message news:<ea35ce33.03051...@posting.google.com>...
casalao
> tons of bombs which brough their villages back to the stone age?
Sri Sattanakarahut
again, eh? For starter, Senior, if US had said yes Mr. Hochiminh
we will help you kick those little French boys out of your
country and out of Indochina, then our little Ho would have not
gone to Soviet Union and came back home with them the Vodka's
boys. Didn't he? He did come to America first, Senior Casalao!
But, US and France were allied, you see, US loves French's wines
and didn't want to kick the French's butts for a little yellow
boy like Ho. In fact the US laughed at him. You can't really
blame Ho for wanting to kick the French and Yank's butts, really.
Sri
casalao wrote:
> thanouxay > Saravane, Champassack and the rest of Laos did to
> the USA to merit 3,8
> > tons of bombs which brough their villages back to the stone
> age?for starters if hochimenh had not involved us in his plan
pizone
long time no hear, hope you had good time during boun peemai lao. here
is another side of the true sad story you should keep in mind too,
When hochiminh 7 (chet, viet word in lao sound) or died, kaison and
all lao commu party members including their followers were crying too.
Not just crying when this commu viet died, each year the lao commu
leaders have to go bowing their head in front of hochminh's corpse in
Hanoi. you tell me, if khamtai doesn't go crying in front of
hochiminh's rotten corpse this year (2003) in hanoi, then that's will
be the best news for all lao people.
hope you know about the hochiminh trails in laos too, where the
2-viets fought their war in lao land. that's the cause of the bombing
you're talking about. yes, the whole episode happened in Laos is a sad
and horible one. it has to have a middle-way for all lao people to
walk together again, don't you think so?
hakpheng
pizone
than...@hotmail.com (thanouxay) wrote in message news:<37ed8460.03051...@posting.google.com>...
Paxasonlao
Ai Casalao both side will always find long list of excuses right but
the true is still remain Laos and Lao innocent people got bombed by
USA period .
Hakpheng .
Paxasonlao4life.
"casalao" <casa...@san.rr.com> wrote in message news:<sm3xa.20751$6P6.5...@twister.socal.rr.com>...
> --
casalao
Pao
For your information, I have not cry for may years!!! So, I am so
sorry that I have to disappoint you, my friend. Only some of you
Aining cry for Communist Vietnamese only.
Secondly, you are so good with your words as always but the truth of
the matter is that Laos has been indefinitely in debt to Vietnam and
no matter what you and I are saying here does NOT change that fact.
The khun lao know that Laos has been sold to North Vietnam (your uncle
Ho) by Souphanouvong and Kaysone; and by your CIA ennemy - so you
should be happy about this).
So, if any one still claim to be a patriotic Khum Lao (despite his or
her genetic make-up), how can that person allow the Communsit
Vietnamese control his/her native land of Laos? Or are you not a Khum
Lao anymore?
Thirdly, if you want to look for those who bring "pain and damage to
Lao life and property" then I may suggest that you look no further...
each one of us and all our friends just have to look into the mirror
and we will find those persons!! That will be a real revelation, if
not immediately but it will be recored in history books.
I do agree with you on one thing - that Laos will emerge again in the
near future and Loas will be better and greater than FaNgum era but to
achieve that they will need, naturally, a lot of spring clean!
With respect as always,
Pao
than...@hotmail.com (thanouxay) wrote in message news:<37ed8460.03051...@posting.google.com>...
Thomas Lee
Tribunal Court before they commit suicide like Pol Pot.
Tom,
dr...@hmoob.net (Pao) wrote in message news:<bd07f89c.03051...@posting.google.com>...
pizone
what kang you're talking about? so far there were 3 pen kang: kang
kong-lair, red kang-deuan which were put to sleep right after the
commu took over laos, and the 3rd kang was under prince
souvannaphouma.
hah, even pen-kang are also divided into 3-kangs! vean-kam.
hakpheng
pizone
"drsouk" <drs...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<b9vgi7$jgj$1...@news-reader13.wanadoo.fr>...
drsouk
Pao
> Pao, not just that but those LPDR Leaders should face International
> Tribunal Court before they commit suicide like Pol Pot.
>
> Tom,
>
>
>
Naturally, of course.
Buddha has said, "Kam sanong kam" - a natural consequence. If they
have done nothing wrong, there is nothing to fear... But if they
have... then naturally!
Pao
Xay Siengsavanh
Correction, I believe Poll Pat did not commit suicide, but die of the
old age. I beleive I saw the news on ABC before he died.
Xay Siengsavanh