The meaning of Syam or Siam in Khmer Language
than...@lightspeed.net
Some Lao Netters ( especailly Sam ) used to claim that
the meaning of Syam or Siam in Khmer language is "thief"
which I do not agree and challange them to show reference
or evidence, but so far none could show or prove it.
I just had a chance to ask about it from a Khmer netter.
The following is his answer.
"To answere you about Siam or Syam: We used to call you
(or people at Ayuthyia) "Seam=Siem" "Pra tés Siem"=Siam Prah Thet.
There's NO any meaning in Khmer. But we understand that Siam Prah
Thet was changed or called (WHO ? I don't know) into Thailand. So we
call you Thai (most of people in cities. People in remote still call
you Seam). In fact no disgrading word or bad word at all, please
belive me. "
________________________
Livan
UNFPA Administrative Assistant
.....@undp.forum.org.kh
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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than...@lightspeed.net
In article <19971031053...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
chow...@aol.com says...
>
>>From: than...@lightspeed.net
>
>>Some Lao Netters ( especailly Sam ) used to claim that
>>the meaning of Syam or Siam in Khmer language is "thief"
>>which I do not agree and challange them to show reference
>>or evidence, but so far none could show or prove it.
>>I just had a chance to ask about it from a Khmer netter.
>>The following is his answer.
>>
>>"To answere you about Siam or Syam: We used to call you
>>(or people at Ayuthyia) "Seam=Siem" "Pra tés Siem"=Siam Prah Thet.
>>There's NO any meaning in Khmer. But we understand that Siam Prah
>>Thet was changed or called (WHO ? I don't know) into Thailand. So we
>>call you Thai (most of people in cities. People in remote still call
>>you Seam). In fact no disgrading word or bad word at all, please
>>belive me. "
>>________________________
>>Livan
>>UNFPA Administrative Assistant
>>.....@undp.forum.org.kh
>>
>Hi Thanitha and SCL readers
>
>Yes indeed, as he has reply, the Khmer used to call the "people" in
Ayuthaya
> Syam. For that I agree with a 100%. As for if there is any other meaning,
yes
> there is. The word Syam mean thief, not just any thief. But this word,
Syam,
> means a "Great thief". The bests of the thieves.
Chowigan:
Please show me reference to support your calim that " Syam mean thief ".
>As for who changed the name of the country. I would like to "know" too.
After
> the Coup d'Etat in 1932 of Pridi and Phibun, the name of the country has
> became "Thailand" and then in the mid 40's it was "reverted" back into
"The
> kingdom of Syam". I believe Pridi do like the name Syam, he even gave a
> meaning of "gold" to the name, as you have stated Thanitha. I could assume
> with certainty that it was Phibun who changed the name INTO Thailand. And
it
> was Pridi who "REVERTED" back into "The Kingdom of Syam" in the mid 40's.
If
> someone has any other explanation, I will be happy to read it.
You are wrong, the name was not changed after the coup nor reversion.
It was changed only once in 1939.
>Regarding to the name of the Khmer refer to the "Thai" people in general.
In
> today's frame of mind, I think that when they use the word Syam, it
doesn't
> have anything or any meaning in their mind, especially those in the remote
> area where their main occupation is to have food on the table. So now the
> definition of the word Syam is irrelevant to them. They wasn't even
"aware"
> that it was changed into "Thai" that is why they still use the word Syam.
As
> you and I are not Khmer linguist, we could only "accept" through the
> interpretation of an individual therefore the proof/evidence/references is
> difficult to show. I could be sure to you that the name was NOT ORIGINALLY
> APPLY TO ALL people in Ayuthaya. There were people in Ayuthaya that called
> themselves Syam and they "represented" themselves as Syam. But the fact
> remains that they called the "people" in Ayuthaya Syam, and the name got
> "stuck" with them when the people moved to Bangkok.
I do not think that you above explanation is correct.
They call the same name because of "old habit".
How many of us call "Mymar" for "Burma" ?
>I am just curious! I believe the word Bangkok is also from Khmer language.
I
> would like to ask .....@undp.forum.org.kh. What would it mean? of
course, If
> he is aware of the meaning.
No,I have never heard that Bangkok is from Khmer language.
Some books said that it was a shorten word of Bangpakok
or Bangmakok, Bang=area, pakok or makok = one kind of fruit
which was abudant in the area in the past
CHOWIGAN
>From: than...@lightspeed.net
>Some Lao Netters ( especailly Sam ) used to claim that
>the meaning of Syam or Siam in Khmer language is "thief"
>which I do not agree and challange them to show reference
>or evidence, but so far none could show or prove it.
>I just had a chance to ask about it from a Khmer netter.
>The following is his answer.
>
>"To answere you about Siam or Syam: We used to call you
>(or people at Ayuthyia) "Seam=Siem" "Pra tés Siem"=Siam Prah Thet.
>There's NO any meaning in Khmer. But we understand that Siam Prah
>Thet was changed or called (WHO ? I don't know) into Thailand. So we
>call you Thai (most of people in cities. People in remote still call
>you Seam). In fact no disgrading word or bad word at all, please
>belive me. "
>________________________
>Livan
>UNFPA Administrative Assistant
>.....@undp.forum.org.kh
>
Hi Thanitha and SCL readers
Yes indeed, as he has reply, the Khmer used to call the "people" in Ayuthaya
Syam. For that I agree with a 100%. As for if there is any other meaning, yes
there is. The word Syam mean thief, not just any thief. But this word, Syam,
means a "Great thief". The bests of the thieves. Also some has stated that it
means a color which look like dark. But when it apply to a group of persons or
nation as in "Thailand", the interpretation is to be use "wisely". Since I am
into "retirement" I won't give you my opinions/interpretations any further.
As for who changed the name of the country. I would like to "know" too. After
the Coup d'Etat in 1932 of Pridi and Phibun, the name of the country has
became "Thailand" and then in the mid 40's it was "reverted" back into "The
kingdom of Syam". I believe Pridi do like the name Syam, he even gave a
meaning of "gold" to the name, as you have stated Thanitha. I could assume
with certainty that it was Phibun who changed the name INTO Thailand. And it
was Pridi who "REVERTED" back into "The Kingdom of Syam" in the mid 40's. If
someone has any other explanation, I will be happy to read it.
Regarding to the name of the Khmer refer to the "Thai" people in general. In
today's frame of mind, I think that when they use the word Syam, it doesn't
have anything or any meaning in their mind, especially those in the remote
area where their main occupation is to have food on the table. So now the
definition of the word Syam is irrelevant to them. They wasn't even "aware"
that it was changed into "Thai" that is why they still use the word Syam. As
you and I are not Khmer linguist, we could only "accept" through the
interpretation of an individual therefore the proof/evidence/references is
difficult to show. I could be sure to you that the name was NOT ORIGINALLY
APPLY TO ALL people in Ayuthaya. There were people in Ayuthaya that called
themselves Syam and they "represented" themselves as Syam. But the fact
remains that they called the "people" in Ayuthaya Syam, and the name got
"stuck" with them when the people moved to Bangkok.
I am just curious! I believe the word Bangkok is also from Khmer language. I
would like to ask .....@undp.forum.org.kh. What would it mean? of course, If
he is aware of the meaning.
Chowigan.
CHOWIGAN
Hi Thanitha and SCL readers
>Chowigan:
>Please show me reference to support your calim that " Syam mean thief ".
>
As we, SCL readers, already knew that the word "Syam" has a lot of meaning. It
COULD mean Gold, piece of land that is dark or yellow, a name of a country, a
color etc... I don't see why we should disregard the meaning of the word Syam
as thieves or dark skin and curly hair. And I don't see why because that
someone has wrote a book and gave a definition of the word Syam has any more
meaning than someone translated orally. I believe both should be valued with
the same respect. When it comes to use the word or apply to a group of person
or nation, it must be use with "wisdom" because we don't know with certainty
what it really means.
>You are wrong, the name was not changed after the coup nor >reversion. It was
changed only once in 1939.
>
If someone has misinterpretated my writing, I hope I could clear it out with
this statement.
I agree with you Thanitha that the name of "The Kingdom of Syam" was changed
into "Thailand" in 1939. I do not believe that the name was changed
"immediately" after the coup in 1932. As for the reversion, you seem to be
saying that it was never changed after 1939.
Please state you position whether the name was changed or not in the mid
1940's? I would like to know your comments.
>I do not think that you above explanation is correct.
>They call the same name because of "old habit".
>How many of us call "Mymar" for "Burma" ?
>
Yes I could agree with you to put it in another word, it was an "old habit".
Nonetheless the Khmer called the people in Ayuthaya as "Syam". I do not
believe that the Tai people in Ayuthaya called themselves Syam, but Tai then
it became Thai as we know in today terminology.
>No,I have never heard that Bangkok is from Khmer language.
>Some books said that it was a shorten word of Bangpakok
>or Bangmakok, Bang=area, pakok or makok = one kind of fruit
>which was abudant in the area in the past
>
I see!!! As you know I am not Khmer linguist, I could only share what they are
telling me, orally of course and in English/French language, sometimes in
writing on the internet in E-mail form. We all know that the "official" name
of that city is "Krunpthep......", well you know the rest. The world longest
name to designate a city.
No wonder why "King Taksin" was slipped in a state of "mental disarray". With a
name of a city this long to administred under his kingdom, I don't blame him.
:-). It must be hard in his day to find a "bureaucrat" to work for him.
Chowigan
P.S.: To ease the texte, I "omitted" some of the paragraphes in the previous articles.
sam
Hey Thanitha,
Getting furous nowadays, eh? I know it hurts when the issue is very dear
to you who would fight at all costs as to have a place for Syam in the
Tai race. Give it up?
than...@lightspeed.net wrote:
> I do not think that you above explanation is correct.
> They call the same name because of "old habit".
> How many of us call "Mymar" for "Burma" ?
Another possibility, they called themselves as "Syam" because they were
and so were their forefathers. It ain't a bad habit but who they were
instead.
> No,I have never heard that Bangkok is from Khmer language.
> Some books said that it was a shorten word of Bangpakok
> or Bangmakok, Bang=area, pakok or makok = one kind of fruit
> which was abudant in the area in the past
Well, to settle this is to translate the word itself, word by word. What
"bang" means in Kmer? In Lao, I can tell you that there ain't no such
word for area. Instead, we used "Khet or Thin or Deen Daen or Kvaen..."
to symbolize the area. However, what "Bang" means in Lao is a hallow
piece of object in which one end is closed: from bamboo-Bang Nam (to
carry water with when going out hunting); Bang Kun Xa (to smoke tobacco
or marijana with (the Hmong have the big and the best of this kind and
if you don't believe me, please ask them). It is called "Bong" in your
part of country.
"Pakok or Makok" in your language means fruit. In Lao, we call it "Maark
Kok". The skin of this fruit is brown and the meat which lied between
the seed and skin is the part is gotten eaten (picture it as an
avocado). It is very sour when ripen. How it is eaten? Well, it is used
in hot sause, in "Lab Koong or Lab Pa" and its aroma is very something
and makes I think of my home, the heaven.
Any linguistic out there? We need help here.
Sam
than...@lightspeed.net
In article <19971031185...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
chow...@aol.com says...
>
>Hi Thanitha and SCL readers
>
>>Chowigan:
>>Please show me reference to support your claim that " Syam mean thief ".
>>
>As we, SCL readers, already knew that the word "Syam" has a lot of meaning.
It
> COULD mean Gold, piece of land that is dark or yellow, a name of a
country, a
> color etc... I don't see why we should disregard the meaning of the word
Syam
> as thieves or dark skin and curly hair. And I don't see why because that
> someone has wrote a book and gave a definition of the word Syam has any
more
> meaning than someone translated orally. I believe both should be valued
with
> the same respect. When it comes to use the word or apply to a group of
person
> or nation, it must be use with "wisdom" because we don't know with
certainty
> what it really means.
I found books which said "Syam" meant "brown, dark,
dark brown, dark blue, dark grenn, and only.
So far, I have never seen any book which said that
"Syam" meant "thieves or dark skin and curly hair".
This is the reason which I asked you to give the reference.
What is the book, by whom, who published and when ?
>>You are wrong, the name was not changed after the coup nor >reversion. It
was
> changed only once in 1939.
>>
>If someone has misinterpretated my writing, I hope I could clear it out
with
> this statement.
>
>I agree with you Thanitha that the name of "The Kingdom of Syam" was
changed
> into "Thailand" in 1939. I do not believe that the name was changed
> "immediately" after the coup in 1932. As for the reversion, you seem to be
> saying that it was never changed after 1939.
>
>Please state you position whether the name was changed or not in the mid
> 1940's? I would like to know your comments.
There was NO changed mid 1940's.
AKM 74
Greeting people,
> pakok or makok = one kind of fruit
>which was abudant in the area in the past
>
>
The word "MAK GOK" = knuckles.......you, Knuckle head!
CHOWIGAN
Hi Thanitha
>I found books which said "Syam" meant "brown, dark,
>dark brown, dark blue, dark grenn, and only.
>So far, I have never seen any book which said that
>"Syam" meant "thieves or dark skin and curly hair".
>This is the reason which I asked you to give the reference.
>What is the book, by whom, who published and when ?
>
I see. Well let us just take it for now that nobody hasn't write a book about
it I hope someday a Khmer would do something about it. Yes I would like to get
my book on it too. I just can't find the book, it is so hard nowaday. But it
was just in one paragraphe that explain the word Syam to/by a traveler, a
Portuguese one. Which it said that "The slaves with dark skin and curly hair
are Syam". Whether it really mean dark skin and curly. Not exactly precise in
this case. But in this way it does mean the "Syam" are the people with dark
skin and curly hair. As for the thieves, well it doesn't just mean thieves. As
it was explain to me by a Khmer. In the "old" Khmer language it means a
great/chief/leader of the thieves or a large group of thieves.
I apology to you and to all SCL readers for I can not give you the
references/books but only of what a Khmer friend has told me orally or through
E-mail. I only want to share some of my understanding of what it does mean.
Sometimes it might not be very pleasant, but it is better than not looking at
the possibility.
>>Please state you position whether the name was changed or not in the mid
>> 1940's? I would like to know your comments.
>
>There was NO changed mid 1940's.
>
It I understand you well on this one. Does it mean that the name of "Thailand",
since 1939 it has never been changed? Mmmm. I guess not all references and
books that I read were a good as I would like them to be. I guess probably
because they were old, usually those books were written in the 60's, 70's and
some in 80's. Well I guess the authors haven't updated them yet.
CHOWIGAN
>From: ak...@aol.com (AKM 74)
>Greeting people,
>The word "MAK GOK" = knuckles.......you, Knuckle head!
>
I believe the exact word is "SAAP MAK GOK HOUAH MEUUNK"- To knuckle somebody's
head.
Would you happen to know the use of the word Bang?
than...@lightspeed.net
>> Than...@lightspeed.net says..................
>>I found books which said "Syam" meant "brown, dark,
>>dark brown, dark blue, dark grenn, and only.
>>So far, I have never seen any book which said that
>>"Syam" meant "thieves or dark skin and curly hair".
>>This is the reason which I asked you to give the reference.
>>What is the book, by whom, who published and when ?
>In article <19971101182...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
chow...@aol.com says...
>I see. Well let us just take it for now that nobody hasn't write a book
about
> it I hope someday a Khmer would do something about it. Yes I would like to
get
> my book on it too. I just can't find the book, it is so hard nowaday. But
it
> was just in one paragraphe that explain the word Syam to/by a traveler, a
> Portuguese one. Which it said that "The slaves with dark skin and curly
hair
> are Syam". Whether it really mean dark skin and curly. Not exactly precise
in
> this case. But in this way it does mean the "Syam" are the people with
dark
> skin and curly hair.
Than...@lightspeed.net says..................
From which book that the Portuguese explained about the word "Syam ". If
you ask English teacher what "The slaves with dark skin and curly hair
are Syam" means. You will know that your interpretation that " the "Syam"
are the people with dark skin and curly hair " is a wrong
interpretation. "the slaves" with dark skin and curly hair are " Syam"
or a group of Syam slaves have dark skin and curly hair. It does not mean
that the "Syam" are the people with dark skin and curly hair.
> As for the thieves, well it doesn't just mean thieves. As
> it was explain to me by a Khmer. In the "old" Khmer language it means a
> great/chief/leader of the thieves or a large group of thieves.
>
>I apology to you and to all SCL readers for I can not give you the
> references/books but only of what a Khmer friend has told me orally or
through
> E-mail. I only want to share some of my understanding of what it does
mean.
> Sometimes it might not be very pleasant, but it is better than not looking
at
> the possibility.
I wonder why it is so easy for you to believe without any research
nor confirmation with the others.
Why can't you remember that you were told by oral or by e-mail
from "a" Khmer friend ?
>>>Please state you position whether the name was changed or not in the mid
>>> 1940's? I would like to know your comments.
>>
>>There was NO changed mid 1940's.
>>
>It I understand you well on this one. Does it mean that the name of
"Thailand",
> since 1939 it has never been changed? Mmmm. I guess not all references and
> books that I read were a good as I would like them to be. I guess probably
> because they were old, usually those books were written in the 60's, 70's
and
> some in 80's. Well I guess the authors haven't updated them yet.
The name of the country was changed only once in each language. The
authors probably confused the name in Thai and English/French languages.
It was changed in the Constitution on Oct 3, BE 2482 ( AD 1939 )from Siam
to Pra-tesh-thai(Thailand in Thai language) but still used "Siam" in
English and French. Then in April BE 2491 (AD 1948) the name "Siam" in
English and French was cahnged to Thailand.
than...@lightspeed.net
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 15:02:14 -0800
From: Livan Sophoan <sop...@undp.forum.org.kh>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.laos,soc.culture.thai,soc.culture.cam
To: than...@lightspeed.net
Subject: Re: The meaning of Syam or Siam in Khmer Language
> [DELET]
---------------------------
My Friend,
I am a Khmer. Don't belive that someone (Khmer)
said that Siam means like this.
Like I posted before "Siam" doesn't mean any thing
in Khmer.
I could not say started when we have this word "Siam"
because the history books wrote that "Siamese or Siam
Prah Thet" were from "Tep Borei Srey Ayuthia" maybe
Bangkok and Ayuthya right now.
I have never heard about Siam Kok. Bang (Bang Kok)
in Khmer may be no meaning. We have only Kok=When
the water reached its lowest temperature (Toek Kok=
Naam Khaeng=Ice). Another word we have similar to BKK
is Boeng Kâk (a name of a big lake in Phnom Penh).
Kâk is a king of grass which made the mats. (round
or flat Kâk).
That's all I know.
To conclude: Do not belive that Siam or Syam in Khmer
means Thives or Slaves or ...curly hair...etc.
We never recruited Siam as our slaves to build Angkor Wath.
Only Siam Prahthet (Perhaps King Noren So) used to occupy
Angkor Wath (History called it Broken of Angkor Era).
Khmer Emperial started to be weak since then (After Angkor Wath Era).
Please search for History Book of "Chive Ta Kwoan".
Thanks
samrane
What's up moron,
Are you done with the history lessons now? How many audiences believe
what you have preached? Anyway, please allow moi to settle this for you:
Since no one lives to tell what your ancestors were like, why can't we
use "YOU and YOUR KIND" as the live sample in tracing back what they
look like. Anyway, it is crystal clear and very conclusive now that Syam
aren't Tai people but the mixed Kmer-Mon-Lawa but they do speak Tai
language. I hope this hypothesis would satisfy all parties including you
and I.
Sam
> Than...@lightspeed.net says..................
>
> From which book that the Portuguese explained about the word "Syam ". If
> you ask English teacher what "The slaves with dark skin and curly hair
> are Syam" means. You will know that your interpretation that " the "Syam"
> are the people with dark skin and curly hair " is a wrong
> interpretation. "the slaves" with dark skin and curly hair are " Syam"
> or a group of Syam slaves have dark skin and curly hair. It does not mean
> that the "Syam" are the people with dark skin and curly hair.
You are right Thanit for it does not necessarily mean so. Wow! I did not
know you are this intelligent. Anyway, what it really means is that "The
slaves with dark skin and curly hair are Syam" can be understood as "
Syam are the people of DARK SKIN and CURLY HAIR, the people of mixed
race including LAWA-MON-KMER and possibly TAI.
> > E-mail. I only want to share some of my understanding of what it does
> mean.
> > Sometimes it might not be very pleasant, but it is better than not looking
> at
> > the possibility.
>
> I wonder why it is so easy for you to believe without any research
> nor confirmation with the others.
> Why can't you remember that you were told by oral or by e-mail
> from "a" Khmer friend ?
I think what CHOWIGAN said is that: it's better than nothing. (Quite
familiar to you)
>
> The name of the country was changed only once in each language. The
> authors probably confused the name in Thai and English/French languages.
It's more than likely that you are the one who is confused even about
your own identity. At one point, you thought you were Thai; another it
is Syam; lately then it is Tai Noi.
If I were you, I would lobby for the Syam, your ancestors whom were
related more to the Kmer than us-the Tai people.
Sam
sam
What's up moron,
This shows your selective understanding: Kmer record vs. western record.
From your own mouth, the chinese merchants recorded about 900 years of
what they saw at the Angkor Wat: the Syam merchants trading "Silk". The
present of Syam themselves at the bas-relief was too about 900 years.
So, the Syam therefore were known to the Kmer and chinese well before
the establishment of the Sukotai by the Tai Noi. Furthermore, from
Livan's message, the Syam were from Uyutthaya or around the Bangkok
areas not the Lanna nor Isarn as you believe and so stated.
From all of these, it is clear that:
1. Syam, your ancestors, and the Tai Noi were different people and
should be classified as different races.
2. Based on #1 criterion, to link the Syam to Tai Noi is a deadly sin,
but you shamelessly and intentionally did it. Then, how could I be wrong
to conclude that you and your kind want to have a place in the Tai race?
3. The most damaging evidence in demonstrating that Syam and the Tai
aren't the same people is the Syam physical appearances, DARK SKIN AND
CURLY HAIR. That's you can give all references you wanted to but the
facts is with you and your kind. Unless of course in the future, your
kind may have to start to clone the Tai people to erase the history and
facts.
Sam
CHOWIGAN
Hi Livan and dear SCL readers.
I will wait again before I make any comments. If someone would like to share
their view, please feel free.
Please state your position whether the Angkor Wat and the Bayon were
EXCLUSIVELY build by only Khmer people. Yes I do understand that they used
Khmer too to build those Temples/Wat.
Chowigan
P.S.: FYI: I happen to have Khmer friends. By bloods start to boil.
>From: Livan Sophoan <sop...@undp.forum.org.kh>
>My Friend, -> I am not sure whether it is direct to me or not.
>
>I am a Khmer. Don't belive that someone (Khmer)
>said that Siam means like this.
>
>Like I posted before "Siam" doesn't mean any thing
>in Khmer.
>
>I could not say started when we have this word "Siam"
>
>because the history books wrote that "Siamese or Siam
>Prah Thet" were from "Tep Borei Srey Ayuthia" maybe
>Bangkok and Ayuthya right now.
>
>I have never heard about Siam Kok. Bang (Bang Kok)
>in Khmer may be no meaning. We have only Kok=When
>the water reached its lowest temperature (Toek Kok=
>Naam Khaeng=Ice). Another word we have similar to BKK
>is Boeng Kāk (a name of a big lake in Phnom Penh).
>Kāk is a king of grass which made the mats. (round
>or flat Kāk).
Lovah
Hi Moron,
As suggested by someone who has time to read and also well understood
the history more than I do, let do some math here. Granted that you are
a Syames physician and should therefore know how to do a second grade
math.
Let see, 900 years: 1997-900 = 1097. Where was your fucking ancestor,
Ramkhamhaeng? The fact is the kingdom of Sukhotaya was established in
1238 or 1219 by one of the references. This evidence indicates that the
Syam were not the Tai and that you ain't one either. As I have stated
before, your and your kind physical appearances (DARK SKIN AND CURLY
HAIR) have also supported my argument. Just take a look at yourself and
compare it to the Tai Lue or even me, it'll undoubtedly prove my point.
than...@lightspeed.net wrote:
> Sam:
> You are the one who is moron as usual and always.
> You do not study and try to express your wrong opinion.
> The Syam at the bas-relief of Angkor Wat was about 900
> years ago but the Syam who captured Angkor Wat from Ayuthaya
> was about 600 years ago. Therefore they were different in
> time frame. About 900 years ago the Syam might be prominent
> in Lan Na or Isan then 300 years later they covered Ayutthaya
> in central part of Thailand.
Even if they and only if they were, they were no such records to show
that the Syam were Tai. The only thing would come out from your fucking
mouth as usual is the record of the French traveling through the region
of about 300 years or so. In fact, your kind have gone to France and
representing themselves as Syam not Tai or Thai.
> By now, you already know that your above opinion is wrong.
> There is no reference to support that dark skin and curly hair
> is a characteristic Syam .There is no reference to support that
> Syam is different or not a Tai because they have dark skin and
> curly hair.
There is no for references to suggest for there are oddity in you and
your kind do still exist even as of today and right in this minute, DARK
SKIN ANS CURLY HAIR.
> You wrote that you would read the books, so please do it
> and do not write anything as yet until you do so.
My opinion of you and your kind is forever and even if we speak
similarly but biologically we are differed.
See ya moron,
Sam
than...@lightspeed.net
In article <34674F...@bristol.ac.uk>,
Lovah <pun...@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi Moron,
>
> As suggested by someone who has time to read and also well understood
> the history more than I do, let do some math here. Granted that you are
> a Syames physician and should therefore know how to do a second grade
> math.
>
> Let see, 900 years: 1997-900 = 1097. Where was your fucking ancestor,
> Ramkhamhaeng? The fact is the kingdom of Sukhotaya was established in
> 1238 or 1219 by one of the references. This evidence indicates that the
> Syam were not the Tai and that you ain't one either. As I have stated
> before, your and your kind physical appearances (DARK SKIN AND CURLY
> HAIR) have also supported my argument. Just take a look at yourself and
> compare it to the Tai Lue or even me, it'll undoubtedly prove my point.
than...@lightspeed.net says.........
Sam:You are wrong as usual and always.
The Tai or Thai or Siamese people could not abruptly established
Kingdom of Sukhothai. There was no record that they suddenly moved
in and fought the Khmer. This is the reason why most scholar believe
that the Tai or Thai or Siamese had been in the area before the
Kingdom of Sukhothai.
> > Sam:
> > You are the one who is moron as usual and always.
> > You do not study and try to express your wrong opinion.
> > The Syam at the bas-relief of Angkor Wat was about 900
> > years ago but the Syam who captured Angkor Wat from Ayuthaya
> > was about 600 years ago. Therefore they were different in
> > time frame. About 900 years ago the Syam might be prominent
> > in Lan Na or Isan then 300 years later they covered Ayutthaya
> > in central part of Thailand.
>
> Even if they and only if they were, they were no such records to show
> that the Syam were Tai. The only thing would come out from your fucking
> mouth as usual is the record of the French traveling through the region
> of about 300 years or so. In fact, your kind have gone to France and
> representing themselves as Syam not Tai or Thai.
Make sure that you read the book before you quote or interprete it.
The book does not say that the envoy "representing themselves as Syam".
The French writer described the event and he referred the envoy
as Siamese. The writer already specified that the Siamese called
themselves as Thai(Tai). There were several records in Thai lanugaue
since Sukhothai that the people were Thai(Tai).
Please show any reference which says that Siamese are not Thai or
Tai in order to support your wrong opinion and foul filthy mouth.
> > By now, you already know that your above opinion is wrong.
> > There is no reference to support that dark skin and curly hair
> > is a characteristic Syam .There is no reference to support that
> > Syam is different or not a Tai because they have dark skin and
> > curly hair.
>
> There is no for references to suggest for there are oddity in you and
> your kind do still exist even as of today and right in this minute, DARK
> SKIN ANS CURLY HAIR.
Some of the Thai may have dark skin and curly hair but
there is nothing saying that they are not Tai.
If you have reference, please show it, not just blah, blah
> > You wrote that you would read the books, so please do it
> > and do not write anything as yet until you do so.
>
> My opinion of you and your kind is forever and even if we speak
> similarly but biologically we are differed.
Yes, it will be different because you and I are different.
I read book about the issue but you don't.
I have parents to raise me and they still alive but you don't.
I live here of my choice but you don't.
> > >In article <346324...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu>,
> > > sam says...
> >
> > >The Lao call them "DAARK LAI" which means "black rectum or asshole". But
> > >yes, it has black or dark word in it.
> >
> > than...@lightspeed.net says...............
> > Wow!!! "The Lao" probably already kissed it, so "The Lao" know
> > what the color was.Ha,Ha,Ha.
> In article <346759...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu>,
Sam <sam...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu> wrote:
> The Lao called your kind "DAARK LAI" is due to the fact that your kind
> were made to bend over to receive the Lao's "FA PHRA BAD or FA TEEN".
> That's how my ancestors knew that your kind have dark rectum. Thus, to
> prevent any possible confusion, my ancestors have named your people as
> "DAARK LAI". For the exact translation in English, your kind were known
> as "DARK ASSHOLE".
than...@lightspeed.net says...............
When you kick someone you will not see the color of that part.
You see it when you come very close to kiss or lick it, Ha, Ha, Ha.
> > You already know that when you say "plausible", then you are
> > wrong. Go back to read my posting again then you will know
> > why you are wrong as usual and always.
>
> Why do I need to read books about the color of gold? However, to you
> it's absolutely necessary and critically important for you are a fucking
> moron.
As usual and always, never read the book about the issue and
when run out of argument, then use foul and filthy langague.
> See ya moron,
> Sam
CHOWIGAN
>From: bch...@gil.com.au
>> nothing really on the subject, just adding my 2 cents worth.
Hi Benja
To me, it worth a lot. Much more than 2 cents.
Chowigan
Benja Chanasit
Sabaidee vj,
Wow.. when did you learn how to read my scripts ?
On 11 Nov 97 12:28:50 -0500, vj@ubmail (Vj (:..x5477..:)) wrote:
>You're talking about siam /siam+/ not Siam (sa'yaam+)! :)))..
>Writting in English confuses the meaning. In Thai, we spell
>
You're mistaken with my own mother tongue here.
FYI, my computer can read/write Thai, K'mai, Laos....
if one could pronounce 'sia+Am or sa+yiam' quickly,
then you will hear '̣ͨ'.
Please ask your neighbours -Maan, Meng, Chuen, Tamil, Sinhalee,
K'mai, Yaun.... to hear a real accent.Nobody outside Laos-Thai knew
and understood the word sayaam in the old days. What ashame !
> siam+ ..... sa'ra'ee-..sOO+sUaa+..sa'ra'ii-..yOO-yak^ mOO-maa^
> sa'yaam+ .. sOO+sUUa+..yOO-yak^..sa'ra'aa-..mOO-maa^
Gee... I can understand only the K'mai, Laos, Thai scripts, not idiot
sct or foolish NECTEC scripts promoted in faq. Sorry for that.
>
>Well, unless you were just being sarcastic! :)..
sincerely, I don't mean it.
>
>Cheers,
>Vj :) - I'm getting tired of this stuff already! :)))..
>
Regards,
Benja
Phonesavath SOUKSOMBOUNE
In article <6573mo$j...@sdrn.zippo.com> mekong_...@hotmail.com writes:
>Path:
>univ-lyon1.fr!pasteur.fr!jussieu.fr!newsfeed.eerie.fr!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridg
>e.uoregon.edu!zdc!szdc!super.zippo.com!newsp.zippo.com!sdrn
>From: mekong_...@hotmail.com
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.laos
>Subject: Re: The meaning of Syam or Siam in Khmer Language
>Organization: Super Zippo News Service [http://super.zippo.com]
>Lines: 96
>Message-ID: <6573mo$j...@sdrn.zippo.com>
>References: <8781981...@dejanews.com>
><afcb91d5&3.0.2.32.1997110...@gil.com.au> <1997Nov11.122850@ubmail>
><346e004...@news.ipswich.gil.com.au> <1997Nov17.113905@ubmail>
><34767b11...@news.ipswich.gil.com.au>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: p-410.newsdawg.com
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>Sabaiidee tuk tuk quonh,
> From Lao people's self-dictionary.
>(1)syam.(p.n)= kmer's slave
>(2)siam.(n)= people with two faces, people without Dhamma, sauvage, fabricated
>the references, unreal human being
>Warning : only Lao people have the References and Understands the Real Meaning.
>Good day
>Un enfant du Mékhong rivière
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>In article <34767b11...@news.ipswich.gil.com.au>, be...@tkint.com says...
>>
>>Warning : some texts were written in Khmer and Thai. To be able to
>>read it properly, you have to switch to both fonts.
>>--------------------------------------------------
>>Soksbai Vj,
>> From my Khmer dictionary.
>>(1) ͨˣ/siem (=Η ) n. Siam, Thailand; people of Thailand; p. Siamese, Thai
>> ‰º–ͨˣ /chiat-siem/ Thai nationality.
>> ¢º¨ºÍ¨Ë£/bpiasaa-siem/ Thai language.
>>(2) ¨íº£/syaam/ 1. p. blue, sky blue. (S. síyaama 'black, dark blue.') 2. sky;
>>cloud.
>>3. (=ͨˣ) n. Siam, Thailand.
>> ͨˣ¥‘ß/syaam-rotÚtÚha / Siam, Thailand.
>>
>>On 17 Nov 97 11:39:05 -0500, vj@ubmail (Vj (:..x5477..:)) wrote:
>>>> if one could pronounce 'sia+Am or sa+yiam' quickly,
>>>Why not pronouncing it slowly and clearly?
>>Even if we pronounce it slowly and clearly, the majority
>>of our people will fail to speak or write it out correctly
>>again...and ...again..
>>
>>>"Siam" is just the way the foreigners in the old days write.
>>>IMBO, should have been written as "Syaam" to reflect as close
>>>as possible to the way we, the Thai people, pronounce it!
>>In Thai, the correct way of writing should be ÈÚÂÒÁ /s'yaam (saw s'aalaa)
>>deriving from Sanskrit meaning for 'Black, dark-blue, dark-coloured,
>>Brown or Dark-green'. S'yaamaa means 'Night particular a dark night,
>>Shade, shadow', and S'yaamaakah means 'a kind of grain or corn'. Here
>>in standard Thai have 3 SAW-alphabets and still failed to write the
>>correct alphabet on this word. Shame on you - the Thai people !
>>Needless to say speaking language.
>>>
>>>> then you will hear '̣ͨ'.
>>>I can't read the above backward question marks! Sorry :(..
>>I believe that very few netters in sct can read my K'mai :-)
>>But my Khmer and Laos friends will correct me if I'm wrong.
>>Truly speaking, I wrote 'siam' 'not syaam' meaning for digging tool.
>>>
>>>> and understood the word sayaam in the old days. What ashame !
>>>I'm pretty sure we, the Thai people, did!
>>Really ! I recalled vaguely that you're the one who told me that
>>3-saws are pronounced the same. How can one understand the
>>proper meaning with incorrect and wrong basement of sound ? Well, I
>>won't argue much on this issue as there are many people who pronounce
>>(r)aw as (l)aw.
>>
>>>SCT Script, IMBO, is the best system to use Romanic characters
>>>to represent words in Thai. Who are you to judge if SCT or NECTEC
>>>is an idiot or being foolish?
>>In my humble opinion, sct script is very stupid and absurd in the net world
>>I have ever surfed on. I think the people employed by NECTEC are insane,
>>incomplete and corrupt like its script. These people are very idiot and foolish
>>in their mother tongue language but very smart in making money. I meant
>>it. That's way they won't give any supports to Thai language on the sct
>>forum and on the net. OOps id..t cHarter.. Sorry...
>>
>>> If you don't like it or don't believe
>>>in it or think it's wrong, then just simply don't use it! (I vaguely
>>>recall that you were the only one voice who opposed SCT Script, saying
>>>that it's phonetically incorrect.)
>>I won't use and recommend it to anyone. instead I'm using real Thai
>>script and learning some scripts being derived from Brahmi and
>>Pallava too. If I have to use, then Thai Royal institute script is my best
>>choice.
>> Better than 1000 voices, if one voice says the truth.
>>
>>> And for that, that we're talking
>>>in a different language, it's no use to discuss with you any more
>>>regarding this matter.
>>>
>>>Until then,
>>>Vj :).
>>Bye
>>Benja
>>Ps. I predict that in the year 2020 all Thai netters will follow idiot sct
>>scripts. !
>>
>>Benja Chanasit ***ຨРª¹ÐÊÔ®°Ôì***
>>Thai E-Mail Group (TMG) http://www.mahidol.ac.th/~ramlt/tmg.html
>>"We Support Thai Language Internet"
>>Ê׺·Í´Áô¡ÅíéÒ¤èÒÀÒÉÒä·Â¢Í§àÃÒ *ÃÑ¡ä·Â ãªéÀÒÉÒä·Â* ÃèÇÁ¡Ñ¹
Je connais bien l'Enfant du mekong.
Venez discutez avec moi
Phonesavath SOUKSOMBOUNE
INSA de Lyon
Electrical Engineering
Benja Chanasit
Warning : some texts were written in Khmer and Thai. To be able to
read it properly, you have to switch to both fonts.
--------------------------------------------------
Soksbai Vj,
From my Khmer dictionary.
บ–อจหฃ /chiat-siem/ Thai nationality.
ขบจบอจหฃ/bpiasaa-siem/ Thai language.
(2) จํบฃ/syaam/ 1. p. blue, sky blue. (S. sํyaama 'black, dark blue.') 2. sky; cloud.
3. (=อจหฃ) n. Siam, Thailand.
อจหฃฅ‘฿/syaam-rotฺtฺha / Siam, Thailand.
On 17 Nov 97 11:39:05 -0500, vj@ubmail (Vj (:..x5477..:)) wrote:
>> if one could pronounce 'sia+Am or sa+yiam' quickly,
>Why not pronouncing it slowly and clearly?
Even if we pronounce it slowly and clearly, the majority
of our people will fail to speak or write it out correctly
again...and ...again..
>"Siam" is just the way the foreigners in the old days write.
>IMBO, should have been written as "Syaam" to reflect as close
>as possible to the way we, the Thai people, pronounce it!
In Thai, the correct way of writing should be ศฺยาม /s'yaam (saw s'aalaa)
deriving from Sanskrit meaning for 'Black, dark-blue, dark-coloured,
Brown or Dark-green'. S'yaamaa means 'Night particular a dark night,
Shade, shadow', and S'yaamaakah means 'a kind of grain or corn'. Here
in standard Thai have 3 SAW-alphabets and still failed to write the
correct alphabet on this word. Shame on you - the Thai people !
Needless to say speaking language.
>
>> then you will hear 'อจฬฃ'.
Benja Chanasit ***เบญจะ ชนะสิฎฐิ์***
Thai E-Mail Group (TMG) http://www.mahidol.ac.th/~ramlt/tmg.html
"We Support Thai Language Internet"
สืบทอดมรดกลํ้าค่าภาษาไทยของเรา *รักไทย ใช้ภาษาไทย* ร่วมกัน
CHOWIGAN
>From: be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit)
>I believe that very few netters in sct can read my K'mai :-)
>But my Khmer and Laos friends will correct me if I'm wrong.
>Truly speaking, I wrote 'siam' 'not syaam' meaning for digging tool.
Hi Benja and dear very respectable SCL
Relating to the word "Siam", I would spell it "Sayaam". I believe you have beat
me to it. Here is how I have heard and pronounce it myself. Forget about the
digging tool!!
Sayaam:
Say-->Pronounce as in Lao language as the verb "to put".
Yaam-->This one is very difficult. The closest word in Lao language that I
could think of is "to visite", "Yaam", if pronounce quickly with long tone. It
would be very close. Like "Yaaaaaam".
Now les talk about your definiton.
> From my Khmer dictionary.
>(1) ͨˣ/siem (=Η ) n. Siam, Thailand; people of Thailand; p. Siamese, Thai
> ‰º–ͨˣ /chiat-siem/ Thai nationality.
> ¢º¨ºÍ¨Ë£/bpiasaa-siem/
It seem to me that from the Kmer dictionnary, the word "Sayaam" means also the
person, not just the country "Siam". It just proves again that the person in
"Thailand" or "The Kingdom of Siam" could also be referring to "Sayaam" and/or
"Thai". But it is still unclear to our respectable readers to understand that
Sayaam and Thai are the same person or not. As we said Benja, what a shame!
However the word "Siamese" is use by the westerner, because to designate a
person they have to use "ese" at the end of "Siam". But we, Lao/Khmer/"Thai"
don't use the suffixe "ese" at the end of "Siam". Therefore the people in
Ayuthaya/Bangkok are/were called "Sayaam" by the people in the neighborborhood
cities/countries, such as the Lao people who would know them "extremely" well.
Too bad your Khmer dictionnary didn't have the definition of the word "Sayaam"
as in the old Khmer language.
>Thai language.
>(2) ¨íº£/syaam/ 1. p. blue, sky blue. (S. síyaama 'black, dark blue.') 2.
>sky; cloud.
>3. (=ͨˣ) n. Siam, Thailand.
> ͨˣ¥‘ß/syaam-rotÚtÚha / Siam, Thailand.
You forgot the meaning of gold. It appears to me that Pridi Phanomyong, a
"Thai" interprete the word "Siam" into Goldlike.
Here if I may add one thing, it has more to do with the change of the name of
the country from The Kingdom of Siam into Thailand. Relating to the Ratthaniyom
I, at the Prime Minister's Speech in the National Assembly, Proceeding of the
National Assembly, Bangkok: Government Printing House, 1939, p.464. At that
time the PM was Phibun.
"In general, the name of the country is named after the ethnic grouping of the
people living in that country.... We are of the Thai race, but our country is
named Siam.... It is clear that the name of Siam does not correspond to our
race....If there were [a great number of] immigrants settling in this country,
perhaps in a thousand years' time, we might not be able to distinguish whether
Siam is the Thais', or Chinese', or other's country...."
Let us discuss one topic at the time:
1-Thai race: Is this suppose to mean that the people in Bangkok are a race of
their own? Different from the people in Lanna and Issarn, Lao people. And
Southern part of Thailand, Malay people. In this case, I could conclude YES
they are.
2-....Siam (the country) does not correspond to our race: Well Phibun, if you
made any effort for them to called themselves "Sayaam", as you did with the Lao
people in Lanna and Issarn to call themselves "Thai". I am sure the people in
Bangkok region would themselves Sayaam by now. That would solve a lot of
confusion for us to make any distinction between who are really from the "Tai"
race and from the "Thai" race. Because I am sure my Lao brothers and sisters in
Thailand would still call themselves Lao. "Some" "Thai" would be very happy
about it. For they do not want us to call ourselves "Thai", but Lao. Thank you,
thank you and thank you.
3-...to distinguish whether Siam is the Thais', or Chinese', or other's
country: So now, we know for sure that the people in Thailand are mix of other
races. They are not all "Thai" after all. I wonder what ever happened to the
"Sayaam" people. Perhaps they have come to call themselves "Thai" or is it the
Sayaam are "Thai" from the start?
Chowigan
than...@lightspeed.net
>In article <19971127063...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> chow...@aol.com (CHOWIGAN) wrote:
> Here if I may add one thing, it has more to do with the change of the name of
> the country from The Kingdom of Siam into Thailand. Relating to the
Ratthaniyom
> I, at the Prime Minister's Speech in the National Assembly, Proceeding of the
> National Assembly, Bangkok: Government Printing House, 1939, p.464. At that
> time the PM was Phibun.
>
> "In general, the name of the country is named after the ethnic grouping of the
> people living in that country.... We are of the Thai race, but our country is
> named Siam.... It is clear that the name of Siam does not correspond to our
> race....If there were [a great number of] immigrants settling in this country,
> perhaps in a thousand years' time, we might not be able to distinguish whether
> Siam is the Thais', or Chinese', or other's country...."
>
> Let us discuss one topic at the time:
> 1-Thai race: Is this suppose to mean that the people in Bangkok are a race of
> their own? Different from the people in Lanna and Issarn, Lao people. And
> Southern part of Thailand, Malay people. In this case, I could conclude YES
> they are.
than...@lightspeed.net says.................
No, PM Pibul did NOT mean that the people in
Bangkok are a race of their own".
In Thai language, the word "Thai" and "Tai" are the same,
so Thai race is also a Tai race too.
> 2-....Siam (the country) does not correspond to our race: Well Phibun, if you
> made any effort for them to called themselves "Sayaam", as you did with the
Lao
> people in Lanna and Issarn to call themselves "Thai". I am sure the people in
> Bangkok region would themselves Sayaam by now. That would solve a lot of
> confusion for us to make any distinction between who are really from the "Tai"
> race and from the "Thai" race. Because I am sure my Lao brothers and sisters
in
> Thailand would still call themselves Lao. "Some" "Thai" would be very happy
> about it. For they do not want us to call ourselves "Thai", but Lao. Thank
you,
> thank you and thank you.
The people of Isan or Lanna are called "Lao" but
they are still "Thai" or "Tai" race.
> 3-...to distinguish whether Siam is the Thais', or Chinese', or other's
> country: So now, we know for sure that the people in Thailand are mix of other
> races. They are not all "Thai" after all. I wonder what ever happened to the
> "Sayaam" people. Perhaps they have come to call themselves "Thai" or is it the
> Sayaam are "Thai" from the start?
Some of the people in Thailand are mixed and some are not.
It is very difficult to find a "pure" race any where in the world.
The advantage of mixed marriage is a less chance of the offspring
to posses bad recessive gene. The offspring has a higher chance
to have a good dominant gene from different group to be better
than the old generation. You can see most of the valuable plants
and animal are Hybrid or Mixed.
> Chowigan
sam
Hi Chowigan and everyone,
Please allow me to comment on your Lao language and hope I won't offend
anyone including you.
> >I believe that very few netters in sct can read my K'mai :-)
> >But my Khmer and Laos friends will correct me if I'm wrong.
> >Truly speaking, I wrote 'siam' 'not syaam' meaning for digging tool.
It ought to be sound out into two words: Sa Yam. But for what I have
seen it is written in one word as "Syam". I know for sure it is not a
garden tool.
> Sayaam:
> Say-->Pronounce as in Lao language as the verb "to put".
Yes. Sai means to put. But "Sa" means "Pond" or fishing hole as "Sa Pa"
or swimming hole as Sa Arb Nam.
> Yaam-->This one is very difficult. The closest word in Lao language that I
> could think of is "to visite", "Yaam", if pronounce quickly with long tone. It
> would be very close. Like "Yaaaaaam".
Yam in Lao means to dare. For example, people would say "Yam Nam Na"
meaaning someone "dares to shame you".
> You forgot the meaning of gold. It appears to me that Pridi Phanomyong, a
> "Thai" interprete the word "Siam" into Goldlike.
I've never heard that before. However, if Syam means relatively more to
dark or black. Gold which is yellowish is out of the question. On the
other hand, my ancestors (the Lao) have called and understood the Syam
as people of Daark Lai or Dark Asshole in English. This is way more
plausible and ought to be used as the official language for the meaning
of Syam.
Have a blast,
Sam
sam
Buck Ven Ha Hoy,
Haven't heard from you for a while and hope you are just fine and dandy.
To keep you update on the current affairs, please allow moi to respond
to your comments.
> than...@lightspeed.net says.................
> No, PM Pibul did NOT mean that the people in
> Bangkok are a race of their own".
> In Thai language, the word "Thai" and "Tai" are the same,
> so Thai race is also a Tai race too.
No, it ain't. Thai means the nationality of the people who are living in
Thailand consisting of multiracial, tribes and ethnicities ( the name
has been cooked up since 1939). The major ethnics are the Lao and the
Syam. On the other hand, Tai is a race and has gotten nothing to do with
the Bangkok people. Biologically speaking, the Tai people such as the
Lao Lan Xang or Lanna and the Tai Lue or Tai Dam or Tai Yai or Phu Tai
or Tai Daeng are appropriately classified as the Tai people since they
have light brown skin and straight hair who speak
relatively/extremely/similarly the same language. On the contrary, the
Syam are the people of mixed race between Mon-Lawa-Kmer and remotely or
rarely or occasionally with the Tai stock.
> Some of the people in Thailand are mixed and some are not.
> It is very difficult to find a "pure" race any where in the world.
> The advantage of mixed marriage is a less chance of the offspring
> to posses bad recessive gene. The offspring has a higher chance
> to have a good dominant gene from different group to be better
> than the old generation. You can see most of the valuable plants
> and animal are Hybrid or Mixed.
Since my great grand father was a merchant from the Shan state (Burma),
a Tai Yai, and my mother side was originated from the Lao stock, it
makes me a 100 % Tai and Lao. Thus far, I am as dominant as you can find
here and anywhere on this earth and there is nothing wrong with me nor
does recessive gene prevail. Yes, you endorse the mixture of genes
because your own ass is indeed a mixed Lawa-Mon-Kmer with dark skin and
curly hair.
Have fun,
Sam
Benja Chanasit
Sabaydee Chowigan, Sam & all,
On 27 Nov 1997 06:35:41 GMT, chow...@aol.com (CHOWIGAN) wrote:
>Relating to the word "Siam", I would spell it "Sayaam". I believe you have beat
>me to it. Here is how I have heard and pronounce it myself. Forget about the
>digging tool!!
>
No one would beat me about siam being garden tool in Laos and Thai as
I told you the real truth, no hidden fact. If I have to spell it out in
final exam, S'yaam will be my best choice. The Khmer would pronounce
it 'siem' or 'siam' and the chinese documents had recorded it as 'siam'. Moreover,
I heard the movies and books 'Anna and the king of siam'. If we go for the
polls from different nationalities, the majority will vote for 'siam, not sayaam'.
I would rather agree with Samran that siam was mispronunciation of saam
(three mixed races - Khmer, Laos, and Thai or Mon or Lawa) and I don't see
anything wrong with that.
>Sayaam:
>Say-->Pronounce as in Lao language as the verb "to put".
>Yaam-->This one is very difficult. The closest word in Lao language that I
>could think of is "to visite", "Yaam", if pronounce quickly with long tone. It
>would be very close. Like "Yaaaaaam".
I don't agree with you about 'sa'
but you make a good point about the 2nd one. It seems to me that it means
Yom or Yam (a messenger of death) or Yaam (= Kaala) - time, division of day.
Hmm.. these people might travel down from the Yom or Yamunaa river while the
Laos comes along from the KhongKhaa - another name of Mekhong river.
>> ‰º–ͨˣ /chiat-siem/ Thai nationality.
>> ¢º¨ºÍ¨Ë£/bpiasaa-siem/
>However the word "Siamese" is use by the westerner, because to designate a
>person they have to use "ese" at the end of "Siam". But we, Lao/Khmer/"Thai"
>don't use the suffixe "ese" at the end of "Siam". Therefore the people in
Yes, if you call the Laos Yuan or Yonok people as foreigner, I will agree with
you. For me, I never think that they're stranger for me. I have my own justment
not to believe only the reference by westerners. Why don't you go back to Chiang
Mai city and study all books written about 500 years ago ?
>Too bad your Khmer dictionnary didn't have the definition of the word "Sayaam"
>as in the old Khmer language.
I have Sanskrit dictionary and can understand some words, not long sentences. I
think it can handle all your inquiry about the Khmer words of which 80% of
its dictionary is derived from Sanskrit ! Now, I try to decipher the Sinhalese
and Tamil scripts too. Hopefully, I can read their dictionary sooner or later.
I want to know your meaning in old Khmer dict. to check it out whether
it's reliable or not.
>>(2) ¨íº£/syaam/ 1. p. blue, sky blue. (S. síyaama 'black, dark blue.') 2.
>>sky; cloud.
>>3. (=ͨˣ) n. Siam, Thailand.
>> ͨˣ¥‘ß/syaam-rotÚtÚha / Siam, Thailand.
>You forgot the meaning of gold. It appears to me that Pridi Phanomyong, a
>"Thai" interprete the word "Siam" into Goldlike.
It seems to me that all countries - Laos, Thai, Mons.. claimed to be the land
of gold, so we have often heard about Sao city (from Su(wan)), ViangKham
Suphan, Kanchana etc. It's alright for someone to interpret syaam being
derived from 'saama' (Yellowish-->Gold). For me, I think siam is derived
from Som or the moon race.
>Let us discuss one topic at the time:
>1-Thai race: Is this suppose to mean that the people in Bangkok are a race of
>their own? Different from the people in Lanna and Issarn, Lao people. And
>Southern part of Thailand, Malay people. In this case, I could conclude YES
>they are.
Nowadays, they are the same race - Thai race according to their official
documents - passport, id. etc. In the oldies, the Laana people were conned
Laos Yuan and Esan people - Laos Kao (old Laos).
>3-...to distinguish whether Siam is the Thais', or Chinese', or other's
>country: So now, we know for sure that the people in Thailand are mix of other
>races. They are not all "Thai" after all. I wonder what ever happened to the
>"Sayaam" people. Perhaps they have come to call themselves "Thai" or is it the
>Sayaam are "Thai" from the start?
>
>Chowigan
benja <siamoid>
Livan Sophoan
Benja Chanasit wrote:
>
> Sabaydee Chowigan, Sam & all,
>
>Too bad your Khmer dictionnary didn't have the definition of the word "Sayaam"
> >as in the old Khmer language.
---------------------
Dear all,
Don't worry so much about the word "Siam, Syam, Siem,..etc"
In our Dictionary the word "Siem" means "A name of a country
next to Cambodia. They called themselves Thai or Tai".
Tha's all for Siem. We don't anayse so serious because it's
not a bad word for us.
Thanks
Benja Chanasit
>> Sayaam:
>> Say-->Pronounce as in Lao language as the verb "to put".
>or swimming hole as Sa Arb Nam.
This is a typical pronunciation of Thai-Laos brothers. Our Khmer friends
would have called 'Sra-Nam' (pond, lake) as Trapeang while writing it out as
Trapang (î–¡Òº†); and Thai-Laos would write/speak it 'Sa-Phang (pond-ruin
/Ê(Ã)оÑѧ)/¦½²É¤'. No joking !
The word 'sra' in Thai/Laos was originally derived from a Sanskrit - Sara
or Saras pronounced same as sara(s) = vowel but meaning for national waterfall
or pond. The Laotian standard has cut off consonant 'r' and 'l' on combination
words and most of Thai people would have silent on 'r' and 'l' or mispronounce
them. I think the Khmer language is one of the best on earth to preserve the real
accent of South-east Asia teminology.
I'm just curious how idiot SCT script in faq had a say to this problem.
Yours,
Benja <I vote for Khmer and Sanskrit to be a part of faq :))>
CHOWIGAN
Sabaydee Benja and respectable readers
>From: be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit)
>I would rather agree with Samran that siam was mispronunciation
>of saam (three mixed races - Khmer, Laos, and Thai or Mon or
>Lawa) and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Of course I don't see anything wrong with that. Would this mean that Lao and
Thai are different race?
>I don't agree with you about 'sa'
Sure. No problem, I was just working out on the pronounciation.
>It seems to me that it means Yom or Yam (a messenger of death)
>or Yaam (= Kaala) - time, division of day.
I like your interpretation, a messenge of death. Now let see, you would spell
"S'yam". The S would sound like a noise coming out of a snake, sticking out
its tongue in search for prey. It should sounds like "SSS Yam", but pronounce
quickly. Since there are at least someone who would claim that this word was
applied to them by the Westerners. I am now taking a look at the Holy Bible to
see if I could find anything that would ressemble to a messenger of Death.
Genesis3:1-4. The Fall of Man.
"Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord
God has made. And he said to the Woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not
eat of every tree of the garden'?"
And the women said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the
garden; but of the fruit of the trees which is in the midst of the gardern, God
has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Then the sepent said to the women, "You will not surely die."
Now what does this have anything with our culture and history? Let just say
that the words of God and the Sins of Man have no boundary. In 1888,
Chulalongkorn was worried about the French presence in Luang Phrabang. Since
the defeat of Chao Anou in the 1820's, LanXang has became "directly ruled" by
the Bangkok. Fearing the presence of the French, Chulalongkorn elaborated a
plan to make the Lao suspicious of the French. On a secret message to the
resident commissioner to Luang Phrabang appointed by Bangkok.
"[We] must try to please [Luang Phrabang] by describing the facts that the Thai
and Lao belong to the same soil....France is merely an alien who looks down on
the Lao race as savage. Whatever the French do to please the rulers of Luang
Phrabang is merely a bait on a hook....Although the Lao people habitually
regard Lao as We and Thai as They when only the two peoples are considered,
comparing the Thai and the French, however, it would be natural that they
regard the Thai as We and the French as They."
You could get the source of this message from Chirac Sathapanawatthana,
Wikrittakan r.s. 112 [The 1893 crisis].
What is my point in this? Well I used to call the "Thai", RACE OF VIPER. Now I
hope you would come to understand me. I am glad my King didn't fall for their
tricks and asked for the French to help us. He failed to explain to the French
that in Lanna and Issarn, the people are Lao too.
> Hmm.. these people might travel down from the Yom or Yamunaa
>river while the Laos comes along from the KhongKhaa - another
>name of Mekhong river.
I would come to think of it too. I otherwise it would make my life easier.
>Laos Yuan or Yonok people
Oh great Benja! I though they would be "Thai" Yuan by now. Thanks for reminding
me. What a refreshing name and it evoke my "long lost" memory.
>For me, I never think that they're stranger for me.
I dont think of them as stranger either. For me they are just like brothers and
sisters. Not to say that we belong to the same race/family.
>Why don't you go back to Chiang
>Mai city and study all books written about 500 years ago ?
Sure. It is my childhood dream to be going and traveling in Xieng Mai. On the
day when it would be free from the subjugation of Bangkok. Yes! I hope to be
there.
What did you find in the books? Anything about "Siam" or "Siamese". You would
surprise me if you found the word "Siamese" or "Siamois".
>>Too bad your Khmer dictionnary didn't have the definition of
>>the word"Sayaam" as in the old Khmer language.
I was expressing my disappointment that your dictionnary didn't have the
defition of it. But specifying that the word also designate a person is a great
advancement.
> For me, I think siam is derived
>from Som or the moon race.
That would be nice if you could give more informations. I hope you are not
referring to the star/sky/mountain which the Lao and the "Tai" people belong
to.
>Nowadays, they are the same race - Thai race according to their
>official documents - passport, id. etc.
I don't think they should be considered as the same race with the people in
Bangkok and in Malay. From my English language dictionnary the word race is
define as follow.
"A division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descendant
and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type."
Therefore the official documents-passport, id etc.. can't be use to classified
people to the race that they belong to. What you are talking about is the
Citizenship or Nationality.
> In the oldies, the Laana people were conned
>Laos Yuan and Esan people - Laos Kao (old Laos).
Chowigan <Laoïd>
sam
Sabaidee Benja, Chowigan, Livan and respectable readers,
I think one should agree on the fact that the Kmer language, culture and
arts are the most believable with minimal alterations throughout its
existence for at least in the last 1500 years or so. I have seen a
sectment of the artshow of the Kmer on PBS a while ago where experts
agreed that the Kmer civilization has been sustained for thousands of
years.
If that is the case, the record about 900 years or so at the bas-relief
at the Angkor Wat should be used as reference. Logically, the Syam
people who were living in the areas around Bangkok or Uyudhaya must have
been living there for more than thousand of years (You just can't being
there at the Angkor Wat on the day you arrive there if they were the Tai
people) Thus, this indicates that the Syam were the people who
originated from the non-Tai stock but the Mon, Lawa, and Kmer
themselves.
When did they call themselves Thai? It's an interesting question but not
without the answers. Yes, some may claim that these people have always
called themselves "Thai" but Syam was the name known to foreigners. For
god sake! What about the Kmer record? Moreoever, what about their
physical appearances: dark skin and curly hair? Well, I guess one should
really think hard as to how one should learn how to lie. In this case,
the Syam ain't the good liars because they allowed their biologies
turning them in.
Yes, some may say what about Sukhothai? Knowing these people like the
Lao do, I would say that Sukhothai was indeed named "Sukhothaya". Here,
Sra "A" has been purposely dropped so that the name of the city would be
"Sukhothay" with Toi Yor at the end. Thus, it was very convinient for
these dark skin and curly hair people to rename them again as
"Sukhothai" by substituting Sra A and Toi Yor with Sra AI. To make it
more believe, massive propaganda was putforth and leading to fabricating
of references. Yes, some of the Lao records were burned and taken away
to Bangkok during the Chao Anu defeat.
Let's be clear that up to the Chao Anu-Syam war, the people of Bangkok
or Ayudhaya still called themselves Syam. In this century (1939), the
country was changed from Syam to Thailand. What's their main objective?
Yes, to lure the world into believing that they are the people from the
Tai stock. Yes, the campaign of deception has begun long time ago: when
they made the Lao to Pao Khaen to the British envoy hoping that the
British would come to their side and help them to fence off the French;
a secret message to their representative stationed in Louang Pra Bang as
presented by Chowigan.
Yes, some may claim that the Syam who called themselves Thai now and the
Ai Lao are brothers. This is their trap and bait. Because if the Lao
beleive it to be the truth, then the Ai Lao is unlikely to get revenge
again similarly to Chao Anu did. Who is laughing now? Yes, the Syam who
called themselves Thai. Think about it! Is it right for someone to burn
down his own brother's house, stole his land and kidnapped his wife and
children? Not Not Not Not and absolutely not to the notion that we are
brothers. Physically, we have nothing in common. Socially and
lingistically, we are much closer since they learned the Lao's stuff
from the one who they kidnapped. The new slogan should be: Death to the
Syam.
> >Why don't you go back to Chiang
Can we all call the city as it's really meant to be called.
Xieng Mai not Chiang Mai and Xieng Hai not Chiang Rai. Since these
cities were discovered and lived by the Lao, will all of us hornering
them by called these cities as my ancestors intended? I know that the
Thais have screwed everything up just because these cities were under
their occupation.
> > In the oldies, the Laana people were conned
> >Laos Yuan and Esan people - Laos Kao (old Laos).
Thanks a lot BJ in educating us. Anyway, watch out for the Syam snakes,
will you?
Sam
CHOWIGAN
>From: Livan Sophoan <sop...@undp.forum.org.kh>
>Dear all,
>
>Don't worry so much about the word "Siam, Syam, Siem,..etc"
>
>In our Dictionary the word "Siem" means "A name of a country
>next to Cambodia. They called themselves Thai or Tai".
>Tha's all for Siem. We don't anayse so serious because it's
>not a bad word for us.
>
>Thanks
>
Sabaydee Livan
Yes Livan. I could assure you that I am not analysing the word "Sayaam" because
it has a bad meaning. The Khmer Empire and cultures have a lot of influences in
that region. I only have interest in the truth.
Tell me! Relating to the Khmer language, which one comes first? The oral
language that the Khmer people are speaking and using daily or the written one
such as the dictionnary.
Chowigan
Livan Sophoan
>
> Yes Livan. I could assure you that I am not analysing the word "Sayaam" because
> it has a bad meaning. The Khmer Empire and cultures have a lot of influences in
> that region. I only have interest in the truth.
>
> Tell me! Relating to the Khmer language, which one comes first? The oral
> language that the Khmer people are speaking and using daily or the written one
> such as the dictionnary.
>
> Chowigan
Sabaidee Khun Chow,
Thank you for appreciation on our culture. I admit it is very ancient
and
so influences.But some people still say that Khmer stole their culture.
I should say that the oral comes first "right ?".
Sophoan
Benja Chanasit
Sabaydii chowigan and all readers,
On 2 Dec 1997 06:07:48 GMT, chow...@aol.com (CHOWIGAN) wrote:
>Of course I don't see anything wrong with that. Would this mean that Lao and
>Thai are different race?
At present, Thai belongs to Thai race and Laos to Laos race. At the first time
of their becoming, they sprung from the same mother's womb, I think
>I like your interpretation, a messenge of death. Now let see, you would spell
>"S'yam". The S would sound like a noise coming out of a snake, sticking out
>its tongue in search for prey. It should sounds like "SSS Yam", but pronounce
>quickly.
S' = with, together,
Please note that in Khmer they won't say 'yaam (¤º£)'. The correct way of
pronouncing it is 'Yiem'===> s'yiem and siem later.
siam is also twin same like Yom & KhongKhaa, Raam & Lakshana,
Sun & Moon
--- cut--
>You could get the source of this message from Chirac Sathapanawatthana,
>Wikrittakan r.s. 112 [The 1893 crisis].
>
>What is my point in this? Well I used to call the "Thai", RACE OF VIPER. Now I
I'm glad to be part of a riper race and so glad that not only Thai and Lao had
worshipped the naga for thousand year, but also the Khmer-Mon-Burma would
practise the same thing in the past. Whenever I saw the pagoda of Preah Dhiat
Phanom, I mummummed to myself 'yeah it's a naga's tail style' :-)
It appeared to me that the people in Maya civilization in the South Ameraca
had practised snake idol for thousand year too. hmmm. it appears at the
eden garden in your bible too... nearly everywhere...
>hope you would come to understand me. I am glad my King didn't fall for their
>tricks and asked for the French to help us. He failed to explain to the French
>that in Lanna and Issarn, the people are Lao too.
I'm very sad too that Thai king who fell in Love
with Laos culture reigned the throne for very short time -
siamese king who could play Khaen with other folks from
villages, the king who married a Laos girl..... no further comments !
>>Laos Yuan or Yonok people
>Oh great Benja! I though they would be "Thai" Yuan by now. Thanks for reminding
>me. What a refreshing name and it evoke my "long lost" memory.
My Laos dictionary told me about this term that
1. geog. Vietnam 2. adj. Vietnamese. 3. adj. Greek
4. n. a Thai tribe of the north
Hmm... very interesting indeed... as in my Sanskrit and Khmer dict.
have given further explanations about the word 'Yuen' (¤Çš) or 'Yavana' as
foreigner and BARBARIAN. I think it might be a siam or chuen or both
who descriped as such. To sum up, Yuan implies the people who were migrant
from another land and the name was given by another group of people
who might be their enemy/stranger at a given time. siam could play
a big role of barbarian and share the same heritage of Yuan
>>For me, I never think that they're stranger for me.
>I dont think of them as stranger either. For me they are just like brothers and
>sisters. Not to say that we belong to the same race/family.
>
>What did you find in the books? Anything about "Siam" or "Siamese". You would
>surprise me if you found the word "Siamese" or "Siamois".
I found the words - Lue, Lawa, Lao, ChaoTai, Maan, Meng are mentioned
after the great King MangRai had destroyed the mon culture of Hariphunchai.
... and the word 'syamdesa' meaning for syam country, not syam race. Well,
who knows, should they translate into eng version, the word siam or siamois..
might be used instead under translator's prudence and attitude toward to term.
>> For me, I think siam is derived
>>from Som or the moon race.
>That would be nice if you could give more informations. I hope you are not
>referring to the star/sky/mountain which the Lao and the "Tai" people belong
>to.
Sure.. thus I heard..
One upon a time, the moon had been sprung from the eyes of Phra Artit
(The Sun) and by all powers he had 27 wives who named after a group of
big fixed stars or Naksatra (Ashwini...Rohini). At that time, Taaraa or
Dao was a wife of Brihaspati (Jupiter) and on one occasion carrief off by
the Moon or Soma who refused to deliver her up to her husband when
demanded. Dao gaved birth to a son named Mercury who became the
ancessor of the Lunar race of kings.
definition of RACE :
>"A division of mankind possessing traits that are transmissible by descendant
>and sufficient to characterize it as a distinct human type."
>
used loosely for group of people having a common culture, history, and/or
languange.
>Therefore the official documents-passport, id etc.. can't be use to classified
>people to the race that they belong to. What you are talking about is the
>Citizenship or Nationality.
I remember well that I had filled Nationality - Thai, and Race - Thai on
my application of legal documents required for. I don't know what they
filled in the form before 193... race - s'yam ??? and I don't really know
what you all - Laos have to fill in but I would guess that your race is Laos,
not Tai or Thai. What I knew for sure is - you can nationalize your Sanchiat,
not Chuachiat..
benja <Yuen - siamoid>
Benja Chanasit
Sabaidee Sam & all,
On Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:23:18 +0000, sam <sam...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu> wrote:
>> >Why don't you go back to Chiang
>Xieng Mai not Chiang Mai and Xieng Hai not Chiang Rai. Since these
>cities were discovered and lived by the Lao, will all of us hornering
>them by called these cities as my ancestors intended? I know that the
>Thais have screwed everything up just because these cities were under
>their occupation.
Can you tell me your meaning of the word 'xieng' before formal
change as you asked for ?
For me, Chiang /Xieng/Chieng was derived from the suay language meaning
for 'Xaang' (Elephant) or from Khmer (‰ş† )meaning for 'skilled crafts man,
artisan, expertise'.
Therefore, it should be written as 'Xaang Mai' (new elephant), or
'Xčaang Mai' (new artisan). However, the pronunciation will be
Xieng or Chieng with or without Xaw Xaang, not with Saw Sua (tiger).
I would love to make it sure that Lao or Khmer or Khaa or Lawa
is the rightful owner of these cities. Hey.. my Khmer friends.. please
don't laugn at us because we have failed to pronounce your # 8th alphabet
correctly.
>> > In the oldies, the Laana people were conned
>> >Laos Yuan and Esan people - Laos Kao (old Laos).
And the Hongsaavadee people called these people as 'Yodhia'
>
>Thanks a lot BJ in educating us. Anyway, watch out for the Syam snakes,
Any time, you're welcome.
>will you?
>
>Sam
Benja <lover for snake, elephant, Garuda, nutmeg>
Puangroi Khamriang
sam wrote:
>
> Sabaidee Benja, Chowigan, Livan and respectable readers,
> Can we all call the city as it's really meant to be called.
>
Hi Sam,
I heard people in Chiang Mai called it 'Jiang Mai' and people in Chiang
Rai called it 'Jiang Hai'. The variation of 'Ch' sound to 'J' sound can
be found among some Dtai( or Tai as it's commonly written but I want to
make it closer to the sound they call themselves) in Yunnan too. Since
you would know Tai Yai and Lao better than me, may I ask if you notice
the differences of the two dialects? From the brief time I lived in the
areas, I noticed that the 'Gum Mueng' pronouced with more explosive
sounds, for example, 'Gum' for 'Kham', 'Jang' for 'Sang' as for
elephant, etc. than 'Kham Lao'.
Regards,
sam
Hi there Puangroi,
Thanks for your civility and response.
Puangroi Khamriang wrote:
> I heard people in Chiang Mai called it 'Jiang Mai' and people in Chiang
> Rai called it 'Jiang Hai'.
Yes, you are absolutely right since the Lao in the north aren't keen to
word CH or X but J. A little different but understandable nonetheless.
The variation of 'Ch' sound to 'J' sound can
> be found among some Dtai( or Tai as it's commonly written but I want to
> make it closer to the sound they call themselves) in Yunnan too.
To call your father: Khun Por (In Syam); Por (in Lao); Buck Ai (Tai
Dam)...etc.
Since
> you would know Tai Yai and Lao better than me, may I ask if you notice
> the differences of the two dialects?
Verbally, at first I did listen to what they said for at least three or
four times. To completely understand them is somewhat difficult but you
really can pick up pieces and trying to make sense out of it.
Have fun,
Sam
Benja Chanasit
Sabaidee Sam & Puangroi & all readers,
Please let me make some comments here :-)
On Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:31:02 -0700, sam <sam...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu> wrote:
>> I heard people in Chiang Mai called it 'Jiang Mai' and people in Chiang
>> Rai called it 'Jiang Hai'.
>
>Yes, you are absolutely right since the Lao in the north aren't keen to
>word CH or X but J. A little different but understandable nonetheless.
In Khmer, chaw chaang alphabet is represented the same as jaw jaan in
writting and only difference between these two is Ghosa or Aghosa. For
example, caan (plate, bowl, dish) (‡ºš) will be pronounced as jaan in Thai/Lao
with same meaning while Khmer writting of caang (‰º†) = ªèÒ§ (skilled craftman)
in Thai/Lao has to be pronounced as cieng (= Xieng/Chieng/Chiang).
To help you understand Khmer bettter, I like to summ it up in loosely
similar pronounciation and writtings here
Kaw, khaw, gaw, ghaw = Kaw Kai
jaw, jhaw, caw, chaw = Jaw Jaan
Daw Dhaw Taw Thaw = Daw JaDaa
daw dhaw taw thaw = daw tao
paw phaw baw bpaw = paw plaa
So it is very difficult to understand, isn't it ?
>
>The variation of 'Ch' sound to 'J' sound can
>> be found among some Dtai( or Tai as it's commonly written but I want to
>> make it closer to the sound they call themselves) in Yunnan too.
I understand that you try to say that dai = tai in my above summary. The
Khmer would spell the word 'Thai' - name of country as dhai same for
Dao dhai (name of star)
>
>To call your father: Khun Por (In Syam); Por (in Lao); Buck Ai (Tai
>Dam)...etc.
Hey...hey.. excuse me ... you had forgotten that the Northern people would
call their khun por, khun mae as - ee paw, ee mae
>Verbally, at first I did listen to what they said for at least three or
>four times. To completely understand them is somewhat difficult but you
>really can pick up pieces and trying to make sense out of it.
When I was in Xieng Mai city (Wooden craftman city) long time ago, while
eating Lamyai the native khon muang said to me 'Som Kaw ?' and I
promplty replied ' Yes, please bring some arrange fruits and papaw
for me' .
Enjoy my Khmer
benja
sam
Sabaidee BJ and respectable readers,
A while back here in SCL, someone has mentioned that the word "Jiang"
means elephant. The story relates to the name of Umpher Khong Jiang
(Ubon). Is it true? Well, to be honest with you I don't absolutely sure
about it.
Now, let's discuss the word "Xieng", shall we? From my limited
knowledge, the word means "Wiseman". For example, the Lao folklor hero
named Xieng Mieng (have you ever heard about him?). Furthermore, the old
Lao's society (the society of people who live in the rural villages)
call "Xieng" as the person who have been educated in the school of
Buddist (Hong Hien Wat): person who SIK or SUK (Ayudhaya) from the Wat.
Could that person be skilled crafted man? Yes, I think so.
With another related topic: who found the Xieng Mai and Xieng Hai?
To me, it must be the Ai-Lao, my ancestor. Why? Because my ancestor
prefered to name their places similarly from one to another. For
example, Xieng Thong or Louang Prabang, Xieng Khouang, Xieng Khan...all
begins with the word Xieng; and also the name of the kingdom such as Lan
Na (million ricefields) and Lan Xang (million elephants). Same thing
could be said about the Syam too who named their kingdom as Sukhothaya
and Ayudhaya.
So, if one would believe that Xieng or Jiang means elephant, the names
of these cities would be New Elephant (Jieng Mai), Mad Elephant (Jiang
Hai), Golden Elephant (Jiang Thong), Obnoxious Elephant (Jiang Khouang)
and Crawling Elephant (Jiang Khan)...It does not only make any sense but
too funny as well.
On the contrary, I think the word Xieng or Jiang means "Wiseman" not
elephant. Here, Mai or Hai or Thong or Khouang or Khan...is the name of
the person of the Ai-Lao. (Hi there Chaosinh, if you read this, please
give us some thought about it since you were Khon Xieng Thong).
Benja Chanasit wrote:
> Hey...hey.. excuse me ... you had forgotten that the Northern people would
> call their khun por, khun mae as - ee paw, ee mae
No, I don't forget EE PAW and EE MAE or EE PA or EE LOONG. I as well as
others did call our parents and relatives that way too because it
symbolizes the closeness. It's primarily used within one's family alone
and people usually get embarressed if someone other than your family
were to heard you said that in public. When was the word "Khun" begun to
apply? Do you know?
> When I was in Xieng Mai city (Wooden craftman city) long time ago, while
> eating Lamyai the native khon muang said to me 'Som Kaw ?' and I
> promplty replied ' Yes, please bring some arrange fruits and papaw
> for me' .
BJ, the Lao word for WOOD and NEW sounds closely but not the same.
Is "Som Kaw?" means "is it sour?"?
Have fun,
Sam
khamthoui
sam wrote:
>
> Sabaidee BJ and respectable readers,
>
> A while back here in SCL, someone has mentioned that the word "Jiang"
> means elephant. The story relates to the name of Umpher Khong Jiang
> (Ubon). Is it true? Well, to be honest with you I don't absolutely sure
> about it.
sabaidee samrane and other despicable readers,
khamthoui thinks "jiang" is "chang," which is elephant in thai, non?
because the stupid thai cannot say use the x and say "xang." this is
not to be confused with xieng, which khamthoui, with his limited
knowledge of chains, whips, and chainsaws (khamthoui will take the
brahmacharya vow next year!), thinks is entirely different.
> could be said about the Syam too who named their kingdom as Sukhothaya
> and Ayudhaya.
khamthoui thought it was sukhothai. is this just a variation on the
spelling, because khamthoui did not know their last syllables were
pronounced so similarly. khamthoui thought that ayudhaya was named
after ayodyha in valmiki's ramayana. what about sukothai? for some
reason, it sounds like a noodle dish to khamthoui.
> Sam
sam
Sabaidee Khamthoui,
Thanks for your inputs, especially about the Syam royal family. Now,
please allow me to give some of my opinions here as well.
khamthoui wrote:
> khamthoui thinks "jiang" is "chang," which is elephant in thai, non?
> because the stupid thai cannot say use the x and say "xang." this is
> not to be confused with xieng, which khamthoui, with his limited
> knowledge of chains, whips, and chainsaws (khamthoui will take the
> brahmacharya vow next year!), thinks is entirely different.
To you, what Xieng means then?
>
> > could be said about the Syam too who named their kingdom as Sukhothaya
> > and Ayudhaya.
>
> khamthoui thought it was sukhothai. is this just a variation on the
> spelling, because khamthoui did not know their last syllables were
> pronounced so similarly. khamthoui thought that ayudhaya was named
> after ayodyha in valmiki's ramayana. what about sukothai? for some
> reason, it sounds like a noodle dish to khamthoui.
Actually, the word Sukho and Sukha are hardly different. Here, Sukha
means "Bathroom". If you readers allow I to be obnoxious just for once,
I think "Sukhothaya or Sukhothai" means the place where people go to
shit at.
Have fun,
sam
Vj (:..x5477..:)
In article <348ECE...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu>, sam <sam...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu> writes:
> Sabaidee Khamthoui,
>
> Thanks for your inputs, especially about the Syam royal family. Now,
> please allow me to give some of my opinions here as well.
>
> khamthoui wrote:
>
>> khamthoui thinks "jiang" is "chang," which is elephant in thai, non?
>
Sam & Khamduay,
I'll make a wild guess, see if it makes sense to you.
Word: jiang (chiang) like in /jiaang- mai'/ or /chiaang- mai'/
Guess: jiang (chiang) <---derived to/from--- wiang
wiang <------------derived to/from--- wang (palace)
What do you think?
Cheers,
Vj :). - Leave our ethnic differences out from this one, okay? :).
sam
Howdy Vj,
Thanks for your interest in our beloved race, the Ai-Lao who found many
great cities including Xieng Mai as well. I'll answer you with an
example as this:
Vj (:..x5477..:) wrote:
> I'll make a wild guess, see if it makes sense to you.
>
> Word: jiang (chiang) like in /jiaang- mai'/ or /chiaang- mai'/
>
> Guess: jiang (chiang) <---derived to/from--- wiang
> wiang <------------derived to/from--- wang (palace)
I don't think it makes sense since there is a beautify city about 200 Km
or so (anyone from this city please correct me; I know Sao Vang Vieng
are godly beautiful) north of ViengChien named Vang Vieng. Here, if
Vieng derives from Vang which means palace, then the name of this city
would means "palace palace". Nuh!
> What do you think?
>
> Cheers,
> Vj :). - Leave our ethnic differences out from this one, okay? :).
Do you mean the Ai-Lao and the Syam?
Have fun,
Sam
Lao Houn Mai
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:27:39 GMT, be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit) wrote:
>Warning : some texts were written in Khmer and Thai. To be able to
>read it properly, you have to switch to both fonts.
>--------------------------------------------------
>In Thai, the correct way of writing should be بعآزء /s'yaam (saw s'aalaa)
>deriving from Sanskrit meaning for 'Black, dark-blue, dark-coloured,
>Brown or Dark-green'. S'yaamaa means 'Night particular a dark night,
>Shade, shadow', and S'yaamaakah means 'a kind of grain or corn'. Here
Benja, do you have any evidence to support this spelling, or is it just wishful thinking?
Lao Houn Mai
On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:16:23 -0700, sam <sam...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu> wrote:
>Sabaidee BJ and respectable readers,
>
>A while back here in SCL, someone has mentioned that the word "Jiang"
>means elephant. The story relates to the name of Umpher Khong Jiang
>(Ubon). Is it true? Well, to be honest with you I don't absolutely sure
>about it.
>So, if one would believe that Xieng or Jiang means elephant, the names
>of these cities would be New Elephant (Jieng Mai), Mad Elephant (Jiang
>Hai), Golden Elephant (Jiang Thong), Obnoxious Elephant (Jiang Khouang)
>and Crawling Elephant (Jiang Khan)...It does not only make any sense but
>too funny as well.
>
>On the contrary, I think the word Xieng or Jiang means "Wiseman" not
>elephant. Here, Mai or Hai or Thong or Khouang or Khan...is the name of
>the person of the Ai-Lao. (Hi there Chaosinh, if you read this, please
>give us some thought about it since you were Khon Xieng Thong).
>
The word Xieng does not mean elephant it means city; it can also mean a prince, or royalty (since
the prince it the titular head of the city). Originally Xieng was the title for a city which was
ruled by a prince, and thus a city which did not have its own prince would not use the title Xieng.
The Lao always had many princes because of the way Lao society and agriculture was structured - a
prince was entitled to a 1000 ricefields. Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that if you look at
a good topographical map of the region, in any areas that have enough paddy land for at least 1000
ricefields in it and sufficient water to irrigate them will have a town with the name Xieng. Some of
the places bearing the name Xieng seem very small and obscure nowadays, in some cases little more
than a small village, but you have to look at the quality of the land and the history of the town.
Any volunteers for testing this theory?
Another related but obsolete meaning of the word xieng is as a title for someone who has been a
monk, or teacher (in a monastery), hence your suggested meaning of wiseman is not entirely without
substance. Again the connection between a monk and a prince can be related to Lao traditions.
There is a claim that the word xieng has an older derivation from the word for a mountain, but this
is unconfirmed.
Benja Chanasit
Sabaidee Sam, FreeLao and all readers,
Your thread to my inquiry didn't come up on my server and I would
miss it without FreeLao's comments. So thanks to both of you in order to
allow me to make further sayings.
On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:42:28 GMT, Fre...@waw.pdi.net*** (Lao Houn Mai) wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:16:23 -0700, sam <sam...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu> wrote:
>>A while back here in SCL, someone has mentioned that the word "Jiang"
>>means elephant. The story relates to the name of Umpher Khong Jiang
>>(Ubon). Is it true? Well, to be honest with you I don't absolutely sure
>>about it.
>
It was me who firstly proposed the theory that Chiang is Jaang in Khmer
pronunciation and later my friend, Mr. W.S. has confirmed us by translating
that piece of article (letter to Editor) from Art & Culture Thai magazine.
>>So, if one would believe that Xieng or Jiang means elephant, the names
>>of these cities would be New Elephant (Jieng Mai), Mad Elephant (Jiang
>>Hai), Golden Elephant (Jiang Thong), Obnoxious Elephant (Jiang Khouang)
>>and Crawling Elephant (Jiang Khan)...It does not only make any sense but
>>too funny as well.
>>
The northern languages pronounce 'jaang4' (จ๊าง) for Chaang and there
was a tale story about the name of Xieng Hai being named after the mad
elephant. If it's true story, then the name of all cities could be JaangMai,
JaangHai etc. The word 'Xieng' was newly invented and influenced by
sem or the South people in my humble opinion.
Here I would like to run the list of province (Khet) and Muang
(or mang, prefecture) that has this name.
1. Jaang Hai, JaangKhong, JaangSaen
2. Jaang Mai, JaangDao
3. Jaang Klaang (Nan)
4. Jaang Kham (Phayao), Jaang Muan
5. Jaang Yuen (MahaSarakham)
6. Jaang Khaan
7. Shri Jaang Mai
8. JaangTung, JaangRung, JaangThong, JaangKhouang
.... (you can add it more here if I miss some towns)
>>On the contrary, I think the word Xieng or Jiang means "Wiseman" not
>>elephant. Here, Mai or Hai or Thong or Khouang or Khan...is the name of
>>the person of the Ai-Lao. (Hi there Chaosinh, if you read this, please
>>give us some thought about it since you were Khon Xieng Thong).
>>
It's another proposal I would love to hold on it to be true. At least,
Dr. Prasert Na Nakhon, a Thai historian, confirms that it could be
a name after the sage or Rashi who was involved in building the
cities.
>
>The word Xieng does not mean elephant it means city; it can also mean a prince, or royalty (since
In Khmer, Xieng means expertise, skilled craftman; and in Mon Jaang
or elephant was called 'Jern' and we have the people from Mon
named 'Jeng' which he told me that it means elephant.
>the prince it the titular head of the city). Originally Xieng was the title for a city which was
>ruled by a prince, and thus a city which did not have its own prince would not use the title Xieng.
>The Lao always had many princes because of the way Lao society and agriculture was structured - a
>prince was entitled to a 1000 ricefields. Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that if you look at
>a good topographical map of the region, in any areas that have enough paddy land for at least 1000
>ricefields in it and sufficient water to irrigate them will have a town with the name Xieng. Some of
>the places bearing the name Xieng seem very small and obscure nowadays, in some cases little more
>than a small village, but you have to look at the quality of the land and the history of the town.
>Any volunteers for testing this theory?
>
If you can give me the whole name of 32 cities with Tai name, I might be
able to run a test to at least interpret their meanings.
>Another related but obsolete meaning of the word xieng is as a title for someone who has been a
>monk, or teacher (in a monastery), hence your suggested meaning of wiseman is not entirely without
>substance. Again the connection between a monk and a prince can be related to Lao traditions.
>
>There is a claim that the word xieng has an older derivation from the word for a mountain, but this
>is unconfirmed.
The chinese people call the river Mekhong 'Lancang Jiang' and while looking
in the map, I can see the city in South China named 'Lancang' and river
named 'Yuan'. These name might be closely related to Ai-Lao and Tai people.
Season greetings : Happy New Year 2541
benja
sam
Sabaidee everyone,
BJ, I would add one more city in which you probably knew it better than
I: Xieng Taeng (this place is a part of the old Lao province given to
the Kmer in 1890's). I have met the refugee kids from this area and they
speak Lao and identify themselves as Lao still. I guess the Cambodian
must not have done a good job as much as the Syam did in brainwashing
them.
Benja Chanasit wrote:
> The northern languages pronounce 'jaang4' (จ๊าง) for Chaang and there
> was a tale story about the name of Xieng Hai being named after the mad
> elephant. If it's true story, then the name of all cities could be JaangMai,
> JaangHai etc. The word 'Xieng' was newly invented and influenced by
> sem or the South people in my humble opinion.
> Here I would like to run the list of province (Khet) and Muang
> (or mang, prefecture) that has this name.
> 1. Jaang Hai, JaangKhong, JaangSaen
> 2. Jaang Mai, JaangDao
> 3. Jaang Klaang (Nan)
> 4. Jaang Kham (Phayao), Jaang Muan
> 5. Jaang Yuen (MahaSarakham)
> 6. Jaang Khaan
> 7. Shri Jaang Mai
> 8. JaangTung, JaangRung, JaangThong, JaangKhouang
> .... (you can add it more here if I miss some towns)
Thanks for the list for it helps me understanding the geography of my
ancestors' country and where they have been. In fact, I like to believe
that the Ai-Lao are still populated in these areas. Am I right?
Have fun,
Sam
Lao Houn Mai
On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:01:33 GMT, be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit) wrote:
>It was me who firstly proposed the theory that Chiang is Jaang in Khmer
>pronunciation and later my friend, Mr. W.S. has confirmed us by translating
>that piece of article (letter to Editor) from Art & Culture Thai magazine.
>
>>>So, if one would believe that Xieng or Jiang means elephant, the names
>>>of these cities would be New Elephant (Jieng Mai), Mad Elephant (Jiang
>>>Hai), Golden Elephant (Jiang Thong), Obnoxious Elephant (Jiang Khouang)
>>>and Crawling Elephant (Jiang Khan)...It does not only make any sense but
>>>too funny as well.
>>>
>The northern languages pronounce 'jaang4' (จ๊าง) for Chaang and there
>was a tale story about the name of Xieng Hai being named after the mad
>elephant. If it's true story, then the name of all cities could be JaangMai,
>JaangHai etc. The word 'Xieng' was newly invented and influenced by
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sem or the South people in my humble opinion.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
HOW COULD THIS BE BENJA?????? The word Xieng is Lao not Khmer. What is more it is a very old word.
The word Xieng is used wherever you can find Lao people - in Laos, northern Vietnam, those parts of
Cambodia that speak Lao (eg Xieng Taeng = Strung Teng), Isan, Lanna, Shan State, Assam, and also
Yunnan in China. If you look at good large scale maps of these regions you will find not dozens but
hundreds of places with the name Xieng. By contrast in Khmer areas (i.e. excluding the Lao provinces
that were transferred to Cambodia by France) you don't see the word Xieng used in place names. So
how could this be a Khmer word. In Siam too you never find the word Xieng, only where it is used by
Lao people. You cannot draw conclusions on the origins of words by their sound alone - you are just
dreaming. You have to relate the sound of the word to the history of the people and other evidence,
and then you find that Xieng is a Lao word not a Khmer word, and has nothing to do with elephant.
>>
>In Khmer, Xieng means expertise, skilled craftman; and in Mon Jaang
>or elephant was called 'Jern' and we have the people from Mon
>named 'Jeng' which he told me that it means elephant.
>
>>The word Xieng does not mean elephant it means city; it can also mean a prince, or royalty (since
>>the prince it the titular head of the city). Originally Xieng was the title for a city which was
>>ruled by a prince, and thus a city which did not have its own prince would not use the title Xieng.
>>The Lao always had many princes because of the way Lao society and agriculture was structured - a
>>prince was entitled to a 1000 ricefields. Although I haven't tried it, I suspect that if you look at
>>a good topographical map of the region, in any areas that have enough paddy land for at least 1000
>>ricefields in it and sufficient water to irrigate them will have a town with the name Xieng. Some of
>>the places bearing the name Xieng seem very small and obscure nowadays, in some cases little more
>>than a small village, but you have to look at the quality of the land and the history of the town.
>>Any volunteers for testing this theory?
>>
>If you can give me the whole name of 32 cities with Tai name, I might be
>able to run a test to at least interpret their meanings.
There are no cities with Thai name using Xieng, only Lao cities use this word because it is a Lao
word not Thai.
CHOWIGAN
>>On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:01:33 GMT, be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit) wrote:
>>Chiang is Jaang in Khmer
>>pronunciation
>>one would believe that Xieng or Jiang means Elephant.
>>The word 'Xieng' was newly invented and influenced by sem or the South people
in my humble opinion.
I am very disappoint to see this Benja. Sem people use the word Chiang, not
Xieng. The word Xieng is use by Lao people.
>From: Fre...@waw.pdi.net*** (Lao Houn Mai)
>HOW COULD THIS BE BENJA?????? The word Xieng is Lao
>not Khmer.What is more it is a very old word.
>The word Xieng is used wherever you can find Lao people
Such as
>Xieng Taeng = Strung Teng)
If it was originated from the Khmer.
Xieng Taeng would become Jaang Teng, not Strung Teng. Xieng Taeng was given to
the Khmer by the French. The Khmer later changed the name to Strung Teng.
Now Benja, could you or anyone look it up in theKhmer dictionnary. What
"Strung" mean in Khmer language? I hope someone could tell me!!!
Chowigan <Ai Lao Xieng>
P.S.: It is very confusing when we try to isolate many cultures who interacte
together. Such as Lao, Sem(Sayaam) and Khmer or Lao and Mon-Khmer.
Livan Sophoan
> >pronunciation and later my friend, Mr. W.S. has confirmed us by translating
> >that piece of article (letter to Editor) from Art & Culture Thai magazine.
> >
> >>>So, if one would believe that Xieng or Jiang means elephant, the names
> >>>of these cities would be New Elephant (Jieng Mai), Mad Elephant (Jiang
> >>>Hai), Golden Elephant (Jiang Thong), Obnoxious Elephant (Jiang Khouang)
> >>>and Crawling Elephant (Jiang Khan)...It does not only make any sense but
> >>>too funny as well.
> >>>
> >The northern languages pronounce 'jaang4' (จ๊าง) for Chaang and there
> >was a tale story about the name of Xieng Hai being named after the mad
> >elephant. If it's true story, then the name of all cities could be JaangMai,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >sem or the South people in my humble opinion.
Sabaidee Lao Houn mai,
You are correct. The word xieng is not a Khmer word.
It's not means Elephant (we call Damrei). ANd not Expertise
(we have a word Jiang=low grade Mechanician)
We rarely have this word too (1 or 2 words). It's a Lao word.
Regarding Stung Treng people can speak Lao is not surprised.
Provinces next to Lao, Thai, Vietnam..etc. Always have problems
in the past for control. It used to be under this under that...
back and fort. Only now it is divided by the real boundary.
But I don't agree with Sam who said that Stung Treng was given to Khmer.
Sabaidee Pee Mai !!!
Benja Chanasit
Suksbai, sabaydee all,
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:15:52 -0800, Livan Sophoan <sop...@undp.forum.org.kh> wrote:
>Benja said
>> >It was me who firstly proposed the theory that Chiang is Jaang in Khmer
>
>> >The northern languages pronounce 'jaang4' (จ๊าง) for Chaang and there
>
>> >JaangHai etc. The word 'Xieng' was newly invented and influenced by
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >sem or the South people in my humble opinion.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >>
>> >In Khmer, Xieng means expertise, skilled craftman; and in Mon Jaang
>> >or elephant was called 'Jern' and we have the people from Mon
>> >named 'Jeng' which he told me that it means elephant.
>> >
>
>Sabaidee Lao Houn mai,
>
>You are correct. The word xieng is not a Khmer word.
You're correct too. Xieng is Frence word and Siang
is Lao word and in siem it is written as Chiang or Chieng
>It's not means Elephant (we call Damrei). ANd not Expertise
>(we have a word Jiang=low grade Mechanician)
>We rarely have this word too (1 or 2 words). It's a Lao word.
Chiang is Suay-Khmer word and you cannot usually find it
in Standard Khmer dictionary. Anyway, your Jiang is pronunciation
of the word 'Chaang1' (ช่าง) which is meant for general skilled
craftman in both KhamTai (Thai-Laos..), Khmer-Mon languange.
The word 'Damrei' was pronounced as 'Thomree' in Tai and
it means 'big snake' or Maha-niak (=Jaang).
>
>Regarding Stung Treng people can speak Lao is not surprised.
Yes, Stung is Khmer word, means 'Khlong' which is smaller
than river and also Treng is Khmer too meaning for 'kind of
reed' or PhakSava in Thai/Laos. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.
>Sabaidee Pee Mai !!!
Suasadey chnam thmey 1998
benja
Benja Chanasit
On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:42:26 GMT, Fre...@waw.pdi.net*** (Lao Houn Mai) wrote:
>>In Thai, the correct way of writing should be بعآزء /s'yaam (saw s'aalaa)
>
You can check it by yourself. Look up in Sanskrit dict. under the alphabet
"s'-" or you could ask for help to make it sure from any Indian scholars.
This is one of idiot reasons they claimed to change the name of sem
country
Benja
sam
Sabaidee Livan,
Merry Buddhamus to you!
Livan Sophoan wrote:
> Sabaidee Lao Houn mai,
>
> You are correct. The word xieng is not a Khmer word.
> It's not means Elephant (we call Damrei). ANd not Expertise
> (we have a word Jiang=low grade Mechanician)
> We rarely have this word too (1 or 2 words). It's a Lao word.
>
> Regarding Stung Treng people can speak Lao is not surprised.
> Provinces next to Lao, Thai, Vietnam..etc. Always have problems
> in the past for control. It used to be under this under that...
> back and fort. Only now it is divided by the real boundary.
Why did they consider and identify themselves as Lao? To me, I think
they are Lao and will always be Lao if they had to chose.
>
> But I don't agree with Sam who said that Stung Treng was given to Khmer.
You don't have to agree with Livan. I remember that my grand father have
told me that our great grand father was pissed and unhappy with the
division of our land, one was the transfering of Xieng Taeng to the
Kmer. To me, I think it's the right thing to do since the Ai-Lao have
taken so much from the Kmer and it's time to return some of it back.
Would the Kmer OK with it?
Sam
Benja Chanasit
sabaydee chowigan & all,
On 26 Dec 1997 03:03:06 GMT, chow...@aol.com (CHOWIGAN) wrote:
>>>one would believe that Xieng or Jiang means Elephant.
>>>The word 'Xieng' was newly invented and influenced by sem or the South people
>in my humble opinion.
>
>I am very disappoint to see this Benja. Sem people use the word Chiang, not
>Xieng. The word Xieng is use by Lao people.
The truth excels everything and we should collect all data from many
sources to analize it. Sometimes, it hurts us but only the truth will prevail
for next generation. Xieng was romanisation indoctrinated by Frence.
The real Laos should romanize it as 'Siang', not xieng
> >Xieng Taeng = Strung Teng)
>
>If it was originated from the Khmer.
>Xieng Taeng would become Jaang Teng, not Strung Teng. Xieng Taeng was given to
>the Khmer by the French. The Khmer later changed the name to Strung Teng.
>
The khmer should call this place Thomrey Stueng = elephant(s) playing
water in the Khlong :-)
>Now Benja, could you or anyone look it up in theKhmer dictionnary. What
>"Strung" mean in Khmer language? I hope someone could tell me!!!
Yes, sir..
I can tell you right now that Strung means Khlong or small river (Menam noi)
and this name is used for at least one of district in the southern Thailand too.
>
>Chowigan <Ai Lao Xieng>
The chinese called ChiangRung 'JingHung' and in Thai-Jai Shan
language has called a wiseman 'Saang' which is Siang in
Laos. The disrobed novices become Siang, don't they ? And
Siang can extend to the people in preparation before fully ordination
which in sen pratet they are usually called 'Nak' or 'Naga' -->Jaang
or big snake
benja
Sri5556
King Siam (Sayaam) was son of King Pha ngoum (Jao pha ngoum) in 1356 A.D. Jao
Pha ngoum (King pha ngoum) was dynasty of Lao or Kingdom of Laos. Jao Pha
ngoum was son of King Phie pha (pha ya phie pha) from Kingdom of Laos "lan
xang" as known as "Meuang Xoua," luang Pha bang today in Lao.
King Pha ngoum (Jao Pha ngoum) was born in 1316 A.D in Luang Pha bang.
Later when he came from Ang ko wat from Combodia, he reunited Laos lands in
early 1353 A.D.
remember all Lao people, twin Siam or Sayaam is blood of Laos or Lao dynasty.
Livan Sophoan
sam wrote:
>
> Sabaidee Livan, Sabaidee Sam,
>
> Merry Buddhamus to you! Same to you Sam!!!
(I was on leave for 1 week).
>
> Why did they consider and identify themselves as Lao? To me, I think
> they are Lao and will always be Lao if they had to chose.
> I agree with you. They are Lao. I even have a foster siter who was born
there from a lady called Kham Sanāk (Kham is a Lao word, Right?). We
call
them Lao Stung Treng. It's normal. We also have Khmer living in
Suphanburi
(long time ago), Surin,Buriram...etc in Thailand. I am not sure if there
are any in Lao ?
> > But I don't agree with Sam who said that Stung Treng was given to Khmer.
>
> You don't have to agree with Livan. I remember that my grand father have
> told me that our great grand father was pissed and unhappy with the
> division of our land, one was the transfering of Xieng Taeng to the
> Kmer. To me, I think it's the right thing to do since the Ai-Lao have
> taken so much from the Kmer and it's time to return some of it back.
> Would the Kmer OK with it?
>
> Sam
Dear! I don't want to talk about regain the territory back. It will cost
a lot
of blood....million lotres...No matter Khmer blood or Lao blood.
A Khmer proverb say Blood till Elephant Stomach(As high as that).
It's better keep the current size...not allow to loss more...OK?
But I support the idea of good relationship like the Lo and Khmer
nowadays.
Pen nhang khrab?
Livan Sophoan
Benja Chanasit wrote:
>
> Suksbai, sabaydee all,
>
> On Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:15:52 -0800, Livan Sophoan <sop...@undp.forum.org.kh> wrote:
> >Benja said
> >> >It was me who firstly proposed the theory that Chiang is Jaang in Khmer
> >
> >> >The northern languages pronounce 'jaang4' (จ๊าง) for Chaang and there
> >
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >sem or the South people in my humble opinion.
> >> >>
> >> >In Khmer, Xieng means expertise, skilled craftman; and in Mon Jaang
> >> >or elephant was called 'Jern' and we have the people from Mon
> >> >named 'Jeng' which he told me that it means elephant.
> >> >
> >
> >
> >You are correct. The word xieng is not a Khmer word.
> is Lao word and in siem it is written as Chiang or Chieng
>
> >(we have a word Jiang=low grade Mechanician)
> >We rarely have this word too (1 or 2 words). It's a Lao word.
> in Standard Khmer dictionary. Anyway, your Jiang is pronunciation
> of the word 'Chaang1' (ช่าง) which is meant for general skilled
> craftman in both KhamTai (Thai-Laos..), Khmer-Mon languange.
> The word 'Damrei' was pronounced as 'Thomree' in Tai and
> it means 'big snake' or Maha-niak (=Jaang).
> >
> than river and also Treng is Khmer too meaning for 'kind of
> reed' or PhakSava in Thai/Laos. Please correct me, if I'm wrong.
>
> >Sabaidee Pee Mai !!!
> Suasadey chnam thmey 1998
>
> benja
Correct ching ching.
Sabaidee Pee Mai!!!
sam
Sabaidee Livan,
Thanks for your response.
Livan Sophoan wrote:
> > Why did they consider and identify themselves as Lao? To me, I think
> > they are Lao and will always be Lao if they had to chose.
>
> > I agree with you. They are Lao. I even have a foster siter who was born
> there from a lady called Kham Sanāk (Kham is a Lao word, Right?).
Kham means gold. Kham Sanak means mixed gold. I don't know the exact
percentage of gold and other alloy metals. It's probably contains some
Nickle too.
We
> call
> them Lao Stung Treng. It's normal. We also have Khmer living in
> Suphanburi
> (long time ago), Surin,Buriram...etc in Thailand. I am not sure if there
> are any in Lao ?
You are absolutely right! Some are steal living there. As for Surin and
Buriram, I would say a great majority is the Kmers and the minority are
the Lao.
> But I support the idea of good relationship like the Lo and Khmer
> nowadays.
The Lao and the Kmer have always had good relationship. Were you there
when Heng Sumrin and Pol Pot were fighting (early 1980)? There were lots
(thousands) of Kmer refugees flooded into southern Laos. Who were they?
They wore black clothes and it seems to me that they were one of the
minority tribes living in the region. If you do know, please educate me.
Hak Phaeng,
Samrane
Benja Chanasit
Soksobbai Sophoan & Sabaidee Sam,
On Mon, 05 Jan 1998 16:12:34 -0800, Livan Sophoan <sop...@undp.forum.org.kh> wrote:
>sam Vao :-
>> Why did they consider and identify themselves as Lao? To me, I think
>> they are Lao and will always be Lao if they had to chose.
They will be real laos if they still (1) eat KhaoNiew, (2) live on stilt house and
(3) play 'khaen'. correct me if I overstated
>
>> I agree with you. They are Lao. I even have a foster siter who was born
>there from a lady called Kham Sanāk (Kham is a Lao word, Right?).
Yes, Kham is KhamTai word meaning 'real gold' while Thong could
be fake, copper or mixed gold in Lao's lexicon and therefore I
have a good friend whose surname is Thongkham from Kanlasin province.
I recalled that he is from PhuTai
>We also have Khmer living in Suphanburi (long time ago),
>Surin,Buriram...etc in Thailand. I am not sure if there
>are any in Lao ?
Joh Suphanburi ! It's a place of mixed people from different
ethincal races. There has been nowadays a home for Khmers settled
down at SakunPakshi, Muang Suphan near Bird Sanctuary. Not only
that there is Vietnamese refugees living in Songphinong district
and all different Laos ethnics - Soong (taidam), Viang, Phuan,... all
over the places in Suphan.
Most of Khmer people in Surin and Buriram are Suay-Khmer
who have been mahout in long tradition. Roughly the Khmer
in Thailand would be estimated to at least 70,000 whereas the
Ishaan land in 19 provinces consists of 24 millions of population.
>>Pen nhang khrab?
muen ay dtay - never mind or in Thai phrase - Mai Pen Rai
Happy Tiger Year (PerkYii) 1360 !
Benja
ps. Sam, FYI, Vaiphot Phetsuphan, famous folksong (Pleng Lukthung)
singer with Laos blood, Thai nationality has been highly honoured as Thai
national artist for the year 1997. He is like a step-father of late PhumPhuang
DuangJan, a queen of Lukthung.
Lao Houn Mai
The name Siam does not come from Sanskrit; Sanskrit was used for religious purposes and for things
connected with religion (including the word for "school" for example) but not as the name of an
ethnic group. The name of an ethnic groups would come from their own language, a name from the past,
or a term used by a neighbouring ethnic group etc.
KhaRedNeck
>The name of an ethnic groups would come from their own language, a name from
>the past,
>or a term used by a neighbouring ethnic group etc.
True. Me Kharedneck is aware that Lao people do call the smart and good rep
"Thai" under the name of Sayaam. Just ask Chowigan. And also in Khmer
dictionary, Siam is the word to call the "Thai" people in AyuDHya, not
AyuTHAIya. Me also know for this "Thai" people the word Siam and Shan are the
same.
Benja Chanasit
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:23:44 GMT, Fre...@waw.pdi.net*** (Lao Houn Mai) wrote:
>>>>In Thai, the correct way of writing should be بعآزء /s'yaam (saw s'aalaa)
>
>connected with religion (including the word for "school" for example) but not as the name of an
>or a term used by a neighbouring ethnic group etc.
Siam might come from Sanskrit if it was the same word for 'shayaam'.
Our Mon-Khmer languange is based on non-tonal Sanskrit while Laos-Thai,
Vietname, Chuen are on tonal language.
The word 'Vityalai and Mahavityalai' is purely Sanskrit and the word
'RongRian' for school is very interesting one as for the Khmers said
'ShaalaaRian' and Thai and Laos said 'RongRian'. How can we classify
loan words ? Who copies from whom ?
Benja
CHOWIGAN
>From: be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit)
Sabaidee Benja
How was your vacation Benja? SCL has been pretty quiet nowaday.
>How can we classify loan words ?
Loan. How would we classify that? Let me take a look on my english dictionary.
Maybe there is a loan translation.
Chowigan
Benja Chanasit
On 13 Jan 1998 00:01:01 GMT, chow...@aol.com (CHOWIGAN) wrote:
>Sabaidee Benja
>How was your vacation Benja? SCL has been pretty quiet nowaday.
Thanks for your concern !
My vacation was great ! On my little break, I had found by accident
the story of Thao Lu-Lu... very interesting indeed. It will take me awhile
to digest and fully understand the whole story. It is indeed very different
from what I learnt at Thai school and from original version composed by
valmiki.
>
>>How can we classify loan words ?
>Loan. How would we classify that? Let me take a look on my english dictionary.
>Maybe there is a loan translation.
>
mountain. I couldn't find the word 'Sayam' yet but the word 'siam-lo-kok'
has been recorded in Chinese historical document.
Does it mean siam + lao + maenum kok ? I don't really know !
I just wonder that the Chinese (Tae-Jew) could borrow the counting
system (Ik, Yii, Saa, Sii, Ngow, Lok, Jek, Poi, Kao) from us as I found
the meaning of Tai as greatest, highest, remotest. And I would further assume
that the Chinese has been borrowing lunar system from Tai too as for the
word 'TaiYin' has a good place in her entry.
I, therefore, would like to know the criteria for a loan-word so I
could dare to proclaim great Tai-Lao culture.
benja
chow...@aol.com
In article <34bbc9aa...@news.ipswich.gil.com.au>,
Benja Chanasit <be...@tkint.com> wrote:
Sabaidee Benja
> >How was your vacation Benja? SCL has been pretty quiet nowaday.
> Sabaidee Pii PerkYii-->Tiger 1360... Chowigan,
> Thanks for your concern !
> My vacation was great ! On my little break, I had found by accident
> the story of Thao Lu-Lu... very interesting indeed. It will take me awhile
> to digest and fully understand the whole story. It is indeed very different
> from what I learnt at Thai school and from original version composed by
> valmiki.
This should be interesting! What else there is that the Thai school don't
teach. Would you care to share? It is good that your accident has a
favorable turn of event.
> >How can we classify loan words ?
> >Loan. How would we classify that? Let me take a look on my english dictionary.
> >Maybe there is a loan translation.
>
> In my little Chinese-English dictionary, Lao means Old; and Shan--> hill,
> mountain. I couldn't find the word 'Sayam' yet but the word 'siam-lo-kok'
> has been recorded in Chinese historical document.
> Does it mean siam + lao + maenum kok ? I don't really know !
>
In the romanize charactere, it is more referred to as Sien or Hsien, not
Siam or Sayam.
In my Chinese-English dictionary, there are too many defition for one
word. Basicly, I just pick the one I like.
Sien-Lo was referred to by the Chineses as a Mon State that was under the
vassalage of the Khmer Empire for about 600 years. Its capital was
La-Hong (Lampoun). It can also be associate with Haripunjaya.
One thing that still remain a mystery, when Ramkhamhaeng fought for the
independance against the Khmer power in the Mon ruled territories. Who
did he fought against? The Khmer, the Mon or both. Who became free? The
Mon people, the Tai people or both. Another one, is Ramkhamhaeng a Tai or
a Mon?
> I just wonder that the Chinese (Tae-Jew) could borrow the counting
> system (Ik, Yii, Saa, Sii, Ngow, Lok, Jek, Poi, Kao) from us as I found
> the meaning of Tai as greatest, highest, remotest. And I would further assume
> that the Chinese has been borrowing lunar system from Tai too as for the
> word 'TaiYin' has a good place in her entry.
Indeed there are a lot of the same words in the counting between the Han
and the Ai-Lao. The Ai-Lao was in a good position to make an observation
of the stars, since the Ai-Lao lived in a mountain or high ground. There
is something to wonder if there is a constellation under the name of "Ai
Lao Siang"!!!
I have seen you and Livan talking about the Ai-Lao calendar. If I may add
something to it. The Ai-Lao has a very complicated system of calendar,
one year Lao is 365 days, 6 h. 12'36" compare to the gregorian year 365
days, 5 h. 49'12". In fact, the Ai-Lao year was based on a period of 800
years, which include 593 years of 365 days and 207 of 366 days. As for
the gregorian it was based on 400 years, 303 years for 365 days and 97 of
366 days. Therefore, there is a difference of 13 days or 23'24" for a
period of 800 years.
The starting point of astronomic year of the Ai-Lao on the ecliptic is
the intersection of the "Mina" and "Meca" of the Zodiac signes. Which
happened in 22 mars 639 A.D. Someone should look it up, if that was true.
It appears that the Ai-Lao "calibrated" their calendar on that year. More
research need to be done.
The day of 22 mars 639 A.D. was called "Theung Sok" or "Song Karn Khune",
civilian new year. The 23 mars 639 A.D. was called "Song Karn Pay", the
day where the year has gone by.
The month on the Ai-Lao are "Deuan Tieng" for the first month of the
year, "Deuan Gni" for the second month and the rest are just the same as
the numbers in Lao language. "Tieng" means "prococity" for the species of
vegetables. "Gni" or "Yii" might be a loan word from the Chinese which
means two. Unless in Lao language it means two too.
> I, therefore, would like to know the criteria for a loan-word so I
> could dare to proclaim great Tai-Lao culture.
If the Han don't confirm it in their textes, no one could conteste their
culture. When it comes to anything relating to history, the Han's
documents are the authorities. Why it is not the case for Thailand
(Siameses or Sien)? As for the Ai-Lao, ever since Vientiane has been
burnt to the ground by the Sayaam, not much was left for its descendants.
Because Vientiane was the capital of LanXang, most of the Lao people's
"written" civilization has gone into smoke and national artifacts has
been stolen by thieves, taken without the consentment.
Chowigan
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Benja Chanasit
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:43:58 -0600, chow...@aol.com wrote:
>This should be interesting! What else there is that the Thai school don't
>teach. Would you care to share? It is good that your accident has a
>favorable turn of event.
appear on the Thai official version.
>
>Sien-Lo was referred to by the Chineses as a Mon State that was under the
>vassalage of the Khmer Empire for about 600 years. Its capital was
>La-Hong (Lampoun). It can also be associate with Haripunjaya.
>
Nagas dictionary, the alternate names for Lumphun is Lambhunarattha,
Labhunja, Lambhuna Nagara, Binga, Bingapuri, Labura, hariphunjaya.
>One thing that still remain a mystery, when Ramkhamhaeng fought for the
>independance against the Khmer power in the Mon ruled territories. Who
>did he fought against? The Khmer, the Mon or both. Who became free? The
>Mon people, the Tai people or both. Another one, is Ramkhamhaeng a Tai or
>a Mon?
>
From my analysis about his title name
Raam - Sanskrit Indian name, so I go for Cham race
kham - Laos
Haeng - Khmer or KhamTai, in this case I go for Khom
Therefore, he had became one of very great kings due to mixed blood.
This theory also applied to the kings whose parent were of Siang Mai mother
+ Siang Thong father etc.
> There
>is something to wonder if there is a constellation under the name of "Ai
>Lao Siang"!!!
I had checked all 133 big stars name in Thai and another 216 stars
from Sanskrit words. Unfortunately, I didn't find any such name yet.
However, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist as for this universe is
very big and might be beyond my knowledge.
>I have seen you and Livan talking about the Ai-Lao calendar. If I may add
>something to it. The Ai-Lao has a very complicated system of calendar,
I'm so glad to have your comment about Ai-Lao calendar, so let me
say something about it for further discussion.
>one year Lao is 365 days, 6 h. 12'36" compare to the gregorian year 365
>days, 5 h. 49'12". In fact, the Ai-Lao year was based on a period of 800
>years, which include 593 years of 365 days and 207 of 366 days. As for
>the gregorian it was based on 400 years, 303 years for 365 days and 97 of
>366 days. Therefore, there is a difference of 13 days or 23'24" for a
>period of 800 years.
>
In my understanding, you're talking about Solar calendar system of
which the present Gregorian normal year has about 365 days, 5 hrs,
48'46'' and 366 days + 5 hrs + 48'46'' for the leaping year. All old
Southeast Asia calendar system has used both Lunar & Solar calendar
based on position of the Moon and the Sun for their calculation.
The Grogorian calendar will still miscalculate about 24 hrs in about
2500-3000 years whereas the Lunar calendar is still ok.
>The starting point of astronomic year of the Ai-Lao on the ecliptic is
>the intersection of the "Mina" and "Meca" of the Zodiac signes. Which
>happened in 22 mars 639 A.D. Someone should look it up, if that was true.
>It appears that the Ai-Lao "calibrated" their calendar on that year. More
>research need to be done.
>
In the past we were followinging Shaka year or MahaShaka Sok calculating
it to be March 22nd, 79 A.D. or Wan Khoune 1 Kham Duane Haa (the 1st
waxing moon of the fifth Thai-Lao month which is equall to the month
of Dao Crocodile's eyes or Dao Mhoo (pig)). Please recheck it out.
>The day of 22 mars 639 A.D. was called "Theung Sok" or "Song Karn Khune",
>civilian new year. The 23 mars 639 A.D. was called "Song Karn Pay", the
>day where the year has gone by.
>
I think it's not logical and true. For example, in this PerkYii
year 1360, the Wan Song Kharn Luang (Last year has gone) will be
on 14th April,
Wan Song Kharn Nao (day(s) before new year) will be on 15th;
and Wan Song Kharn Khoune (Thalerng Sok or new Year) will be
on the 16th April.
>The month on the Ai-Lao are "Deuan Tieng" for the first month of the
>year, "Deuan Gni" for the second month and the rest are just the same as
>the numbers in Lao language. "Tieng" means "prococity" for the species of
>vegetables. "Gni" or "Yii" might be a loan word from the Chinese which
>means two. Unless in Lao language it means two too.
>
I'm very interested to hear about calendar culture stuff. Still I'm asking
why the month of Siang Mai and Siang Tung is two month ahead of
official Thai-Lao official month ?
And next question why the 12th full moon (in Thailand--> 3rd Nov.,
in Laos--> 4th Nov., and PengYii (month two) in ChiangMai -->3rd
Nov. 1998) has occured on the different date and month ?
> As for the Ai-Lao, ever since Vientiane has been
>burnt to the ground by the Sayaam, not much was left for its descendants.
>Because Vientiane was the capital of LanXang, most of the Lao people's
>"written" civilization has gone into smoke and national artifacts has
>been stolen by thieves, taken without the consentment.
>
At least the Ai-Lao calendar still survives the burning, Thao Lu-Lu or
PhraLam Jataka is not destroyed. Just my little thought
Benja
sam
Hi there BJ and other honorable historians (kinda),
Apparantly, this is no where near the end of the name of Syam. Will
there be more interesting things coming out from this thread?
Benja Chanasit wrote:
> >One thing that still remain a mystery, when Ramkhamhaeng fought for the
> >independance against the Khmer power in the Mon ruled territories. Who
> >did he fought against? The Khmer, the Mon or both. Who became free? The
> >Mon people, the Tai people or both. Another one, is Ramkhamhaeng a Tai or
> >a Mon?
> >
> From my analysis about his title name
> Raam - Sanskrit Indian name, so I go for Cham race
> kham - Laos
> Haeng - Khmer or KhamTai, in this case I go for Khom
> Therefore, he had became one of very great kings due to mixed blood.
I personally don't believe that Ramkhamhaeng was a Tai but a true
Mon-Kmer and here is why. I agree that Ram is the Indian's name but
Khamhaeng is not a Lao nor a Tai name but of others. Here, Khamhaeng
means a person with special ability to dare and to fight with anyone
(Khon Kaeng). Actually, the word should be spelled as KamHaeng not
Khamhaeng since Kham in Lao means gold. Along the line, in Lao we can
use the word "Bang Art" as for the word "Kamhaeng": e.g. Mung Ya
Kamhaeng is the same as Mung Ya Bang Art (don't you dare with me).
Hak Phaeng,
Sam
Lao Houn Mai
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:15:22 GMT, be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit) wrote:
>On 13 Jan 1998 00:01:01 GMT, chow...@aol.com (CHOWIGAN) wrote:
>>Sabaidee Benja
>>How was your vacation Benja? SCL has been pretty quiet nowaday.
>Sabaidee Pii PerkYii-->Tiger 1360... Chowigan,
> Thanks for your concern !
> My vacation was great ! On my little break, I had found by accident
>the story of Thao Lu-Lu... very interesting indeed. It will take me awhile
>to digest and fully understand the whole story. It is indeed very different
>from what I learnt at Thai school and from original version composed by
>valmiki.
>>
>>>How can we classify loan words ?
>>Loan. How would we classify that? Let me take a look on my english dictionary.
>>Maybe there is a loan translation.
>>
>In my little Chinese-English dictionary, Lao means Old; and Shan--> hill,
>mountain. I couldn't find the word 'Sayam' yet but the word 'siam-lo-kok'
>has been recorded in Chinese historical document.
> Does it mean siam + lao + maenum kok ? I don't really know !
>
> I just wonder that the Chinese (Tae-Jew) could borrow the counting
>system (Ik, Yii, Saa, Sii, Ngow, Lok, Jek, Poi, Kao) from us as I found
>the meaning of Tai as greatest, highest, remotest. And I would further assume
>that the Chinese has been borrowing lunar system from Tai too as for the
>word 'TaiYin' has a good place in her entry.
> I, therefore, would like to know the criteria for a loan-word so I
>could dare to proclaim great Tai-Lao culture.
>
>benja
Benja, Chinese didn't borrow from Lao - Lao borrowed from Chinese. Much of the Lao language comes
from old Chinese; the word "tam it" for example is old Chinese. The Lao numbers also came from
Chinese, which is not surprising since they were needed for trading.
Shan is from the Chinese word shan = mountain. However the word Lao has changed both in meaning and
in pronunciation. The word comes from the old Chinese word for bird.
The Lao word tai comes from the Chinese word dta (Peking dialect) = great (Chinese character of a
man with his arms stretched out) which was pronounced dtai in old Chinese. Nowadays it is pronounced
dtai in Cantonese, dai in Vietnam (with the same meaning = great), etc. Usage in Lao started as a
title for the kings of Nan Chao - Tai Mong, Tai Chang Ho, Tai Tien Hing, Tai Yin Ning, Tai Li and
Tai Chung were the names of the 6 Great kings of that period. Later during Khun Bulom's period it
was used as a term for the lower echelon of the aristocracy: the king was called Khun, Tai was used
as a title for lords and ministers, Pai for ordinary people, and Kha for slaves. This useage was
adapted from the Indian caste system. However the caste system was not suited to Lao society and
with time the meaning of the word tai changed with time again to simply mean people (tai Muang
Luang, tai Vieng, tai Pakse, tai Sam Nua, tai Dam, tai Daeng, etc. The Phou Tai people are named
after the river Nam Tai - since tai Tai would sound very strange they use the word phou instead
which has the same meaning.
Lao Houn Mai
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:43:58 -0600, chow...@aol.com wrote:
>One thing that still remain a mystery, when Ramkhamhaeng fought for the
>independance against the Khmer power in the Mon ruled territories. Who
>did he fought against? The Khmer, the Mon or both. Who became free? The
>Mon people, the Tai people or both. Another one, is Ramkhamhaeng a Tai or
>a Mon?
Ramkhamhaeng was Siamese (Mon-Khmer). He fought the Mons from Burma, the Khmers from Cambodia, and
the Lao from Lanna.
Lao Houn Mai
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:54:38 GMT, be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit) wrote:
>>
>From my analysis about his title name
>Raam - Sanskrit Indian name, so I go for Cham race
This has nothing to do with the Cham. Rama means king.
>kham - Laos
kam is a Khmer word meaning karma
>Haeng - Khmer or KhamTai, in this case I go for Khom
Why Khom for god's sake????
> Therefore, he had became one of very great kings due to mixed blood.
>This theory also applied to the kings whose parent were of Siang Mai mother
>+ Siang Thong father etc.
Ridiculous argument! Ramkamhaeng was a Siamese; Siamese is a subgroup of the Mon-Khmer group.
Joris Goetschalckx
Lao Houn Mai wrote:
> Ramkhamhaeng was Siamese (Mon-Khmer). He fought the Mons from Burma,
> the Khmers from Cambodia, and the Lao from Lanna.
Hi,
I know many people are not going to like this piece of info, but as
far as I know Ramkhamhaeng was Lao... For those who want to know
more about it, I can recommend the following work:
James Chamberlain (ed.), The Ram Khamhaeng Controversy,
Collected Papers, Bangkok 1991 (ISBN 974-8359-17-4).
Essential reading for all who are interested in Ram Khamhaeng,
in the origin of Thai script and, above all, in the question
whether Inscription One (the Ram Khamhaeng Inscription) is a
fake or not...
Kind regards,
Joris
*******************************************************************
* Joris Goetschalckx *
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Benja Chanasit
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:15:24 GMT, Fre...@waw.pdi.net*** (Lao Houn Mai) wrote:
>This has nothing to do with the Cham. Rama means king.
>
same in eng., Mr. bill, Mr. Frank, Mr. John... It doesn't mean the
king as you said.
>kam is a Khmer word meaning karma
>
It depends on how you spell it. Kam in Laos means spoke of a
wheel eg. Kongkam-KongKwian (spoke of a wheel (or karma ?),
and spoke of cart)
>Why Khom for god's sake????
>
Have you never heard of Mae Khom ?
For your sake, I will give a definition of Mekong River
from Laughing Nagas dictionary :-
{Kharanadi, Khalanadi, Mehkong, Me Hkawang, "Mae khom", Mae Nam
Khong or Kong, Lancong Jiang, Lan-Song, Lan-Xang, Lan Ts'ang Chiang,
Kieor-long in Xishuangbanna ('Back of the Dragon' or Naga), Kiu Lung
King, Chiu-Lung, the Cambodian River}
Oh.. may I add one more name to the list... ThanaNatthii where the
Naga with 7 heads lives, so they had named the city 'Chanthabuori
SiSattanak' after this Naga.
>Ridiculous argument! Ramkamhaeng was a Siamese; Siamese is a
>subgroup of the Mon-Khmer group.
siam is the same 'sien', 'sem', 'sen', 'sham', 'shan', 'shang',...
Lao is the same 'Lwa', 'Lua', 'Luu',...
Yun is the same 'Yuan', 'Yonok', 'Yavana'
Mon is the same 'Meng' and Khom is the same 'khong'.
Duan 'Peng or Pheng' in Lao is the same khae 'Phen' in khom.
Don't you think so ?
benja
Lao Houn Mai
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:09:28 GMT, be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit) wrote:
>siam is the same 'sien', 'sem', 'sen', 'sham', 'shan', 'shang',...
Siam comes from the name of a Mon-Khmer ethnic group called Syam
Shan is the Chinese word for mountain; there is no connection between the two
>Lao is the same 'Lwa', 'Lua', 'Luu',...
Lao comes from Nuai Yue (meaning bird people) - Nuo Yue - Luo Yue - Yi Luo (still meaning bird
people) - Ai Lao - Lao. There are historical manuscripts to support this derivation; there are no
historical manuscripts to support your derivation
>Yun is the same 'Yuan', 'Yonok', 'Yavana'
>Mon is the same 'Meng' and Khom is the same 'khong'.
There is no connection between Mon and Meng. The former comes from Indian in the South, the latter
comes from Chinese in the North. Both terms were in use by their respective owners long before
either of the two ethnic groups met each other.
> Duan 'Peng or Pheng' in Lao is the same khae 'Phen' in khom.
>
> Don't you think so ?
>
>benja
No I don't think so Benja. Your imagination is so far from reality it will take you nowhere. I
suggest you come down to earth.
chow...@aol.com
> Hi,
>
> I know many people are not going to like this piece of info, but as
> far as I know Ramkhamhaeng was Lao... For those who want to know
> more about it, I can recommend the following work:
>
> James Chamberlain (ed.), The Ram Khamhaeng Controversy,
> Collected Papers, Bangkok 1991 (ISBN 974-8359-17-4).
>
> Essential reading for all who are interested in Ram Khamhaeng,
> in the origin of Thai script and, above all, in the question
> whether Inscription One (the Ram Khamhaeng Inscription) is a
> fake or not...
>
> Kind regards,
> Joris
>
Sabaidee Joris and all,
What do we have here !!!! Do we have the "GREATEST SIAMESES HERO" to be a
Lao? There is no way for me to express my happiness. What does this
means, :-)? Do I need to say more.
Who did you think that might not like your post? If there is a Lao that
give you a hard times on this one. Please refer them to me. I must have
miss your post earlier due to my problem accessing to the SCL/SCT.
Someone mentioned your GREAT POST to me, then here I am, checking it out.
Its worth a lot, happy to read it.
I wish I could give you my "Lao references" to back you up. But it has no
credibility at all to the Siameses. I am sure you are acquainted enough
with these people (Sayaam) to understand.
Chowigan <Ai Lao>
P.S.: Tell Daddy that Chowigan miss him.
CHOWIGAN
>From: be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit)
>Have you never heard of Mae Khom ?
>For your sake, I will give a definition of Mekong River
>from Laughing Nagas dictionary :-
>{Kharanadi, Khalanadi, Mehkong, Me Hkawang, "Mae khom", Mae Nam
>Khong or Kong, Lancong Jiang, Lan-Song, Lan-Xang, Lan Ts'ang Chiang,
>Kieor-long in Xishuangbanna ('Back of the Dragon' or Naga), Kiu Lung
>King, Chiu-Lung, the Cambodian River}
> Oh.. may I add one more name to the list... ThanaNatthii where the
>Naga with 7 heads lives, so they had named the city 'Chanthabuori
>SiSattanak' after this Naga.
>
Sabaidee Benja and all descendants of Nagas,
I am wondering when you gonna come up with the Naga having 7 heads. The next
thing that I would be expecting is an old men story from you. Could you come
find something with the word "Sata"? With one t, not Satta with two t. I do
not have a "Laughing Nagas dictionary". :-). Perhaps you could come up with
something interesting.
Chowigan
CHOWIGAN
>From: be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit)
>The word 'Raama' is just a simple male name in Indian context. The
>same in eng., Mr. bill, Mr. Frank, Mr. John... It doesn't mean the
>king as you said.
>
Why Benja?? Could we just add the word "Khun" on your list too.
Like Khun Benja or Khun Ai.
>>kam is a Khmer word meaning karma
>>
>It depends on how you spell it. Kam in Laos means spoke of a
>wheel eg. Kongkam-KongKwian (spoke of a wheel (or karma ?),
>and spoke of cart)
>
Could we agree that Kam is a loan word?
>siam is the same 'sien', 'sem', 'sen', 'sham', 'shan', 'shang',...
>Lao is the same 'Lwa', 'Lua', 'Luu',...
>Yun is the same 'Yuan', 'Yonok', 'Yavana'
>Mon is the same 'Meng' and Khom is the same 'khong'.
> Duan 'Peng or Pheng' in Lao is the same khae 'Phen' in khom.
>
> Don't you think so ?
Oh my God !!!! I just hope that you won't add the letter "a" to the word "Lwa"
and then interconnected to the word Lao. I will be most disappointed to see
this happening.
Lao or Ai Lao is 'Lao', 'Lue', 'Yun', 'Shan', 'Dam', 'Daeng'...
Mon or Mon-Khmer is 'Siam','Meng', 'Lawa','Khom', 'Khmer'....
This is much better!!!
>benja
Chowigan <Ai Lao>
Lao Houn Mai
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:50:43 +0100, Joris Goetschalckx <joris.goe...@tornado.be> wrote:
>Lao Houn Mai wrote:
>> Ramkhamhaeng was Siamese (Mon-Khmer). He fought the Mons from Burma,
>> the Khmers from Cambodia, and the Lao from Lanna.
>
>Hi,
>
>I know many people are not going to like this piece of info, but as
>far as I know Ramkhamhaeng was Lao... For those who want to know
>more about it, I can recommend the following work:
OK Mr Know-All Unelected Burocrat from the Fascist and anti-democratic European Commission Empire
If you think you know so much about Ramkamhaeng and the origins of the Lao and Siamese scripts, take
a look at my response to your other posting on this subject.
>
> James Chamberlain (ed.), The Ram Khamhaeng Controversy,
> Collected Papers, Bangkok 1991 (ISBN 974-8359-17-4).
>
>Essential reading for all who are interested in Ram Khamhaeng,
>in the origin of Thai script and, above all, in the question
>whether Inscription One (the Ram Khamhaeng Inscription) is a
>fake or not...
>
>Kind regards,
>Joris
>
Benja Chanasit
On 24 Jan 1998 04:18:28 GMT, chow...@aol.com (CHOWIGAN) wrote:
>>The word 'Raama' is just a simple male name in Indian context. The
>>same in eng., Mr. bill, Mr. Frank, Mr. John... It doesn't mean the
>>king as you said.
>>
>Why Benja?? Could we just add the word "Khun" on your list too.
>Like Khun Benja or Khun Ai.
>
the Thai people to wear hats outside their residence and stop
eating betal nut.
>>It depends on how you spell it. Kam in Laos means spoke of a
>>wheel eg. Kongkam-KongKwian (spoke of a wheel (or karma ?),
>>and spoke of cart)
>>
>Could we agree that Kam is a loan word?
I don't know it's a loan word or not. Kam in Khmer means
shell and spoke of the wheel.
>
>Lao or Ai Lao is 'Lao', 'Lue', 'Yun', 'Shan', 'Dam', 'Daeng'...
>Mon or Mon-Khmer is 'Siam','Meng', 'Lawa','Khom', 'Khmer'....
>
>This is much better!!!
Can you explain to me why these people do not speak either Mon
or Khmer langauge ? Why do they speak langague similar to Lao ?
benja
Livan Sophoan
Benja Chanasit wrote:
[Delete]
>
> >>It depends on how you spell it. Kam in Laos means spoke of a
> >>wheel eg. Kongkam-KongKwian (spoke of a wheel (or karma ?),
> >>and spoke of cart)
> >Could we agree that Kam is a loan word?
> I don't know it's a loan word or not. Kam in Khmer means
> shell and spoke of the wheel.
Yes,Correct. In Khmer there are 2 words same sound but diffrent
spelling meaning. 1/. Kam (Khmer word) is spoke of a wheel,
spoke of cart spoke of stairs..etc.
2/.Kama (from Sanscrit or Pali) (Thia or
Lao may call VénKam) means your act during this life or previouse life.
The belief in Buddhism is your act was bad or wrong you will receive
Bad or wrong Kama this life...etc. We use Kam Phal (result of Act),
Kam Pear (Result Rancor)...If you killed someone then his son would
have taken revenge that is your Kam Phal or Kam Pear.