lao origin?

xieng...@usa.net

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Jun 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/12/97

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HISTORY vs HYPOTHESES

My questions may be naive and my knowledge modest but I want to
exchange more reliable information as possible about our correct
origin (lao people origin). Hope for your all relevant
contribution!

What is the real meaning of LAO and its origin?

Since now there seems to be many contradicting hypotheses of the
real meaning and origin of the word "LAO". Some historics defined
that the word LAO comes from the translation of DAO (star) D --> L
Another related to the name of a river that get its source from
China (well known Mekong River that flows down from the Tibet
mountains). Conversely different hypothesis says that the word
LAO transfigured from the word LAWA (short stress on the last word)
Unfortunately, actual school books teach not so much about our
prehistory... But it must be relevant literature remaining somewhere!
Generation succession is not enough to transfer sufficient
knowledge upon our history and there are so few people that are
doing research on this field...

PHONGSAVADANE LAO

Old experienced people surely well know about this unvaluable
"Lao History Book". Old people's saying teaches: "Yark pai nar
Hai Beung Lang" (Wanna go forward - First look back)...

OLD LAO LANGUAGE "DHARM": MIX OF PALI + SANSRAKIT

What was the real origin of the old lao "DHARM" that, actually,
we see on common "Bai Lane" (Old Lao Transcript) or Stone
Transcript in most of lao temples "Wat" and religious sites?
When our ancestors used it for first?

Campaign for Freedom and Democracy in Laos

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Jun 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/13/97

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On Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:11:40 -0600, xieng...@usa.net wrote:

>HISTORY vs HYPOTHESES
>
>My questions may be naive and my knowledge modest but I want to
>exchange more reliable information as possible about our correct
>origin (lao people origin). Hope for your all relevant
>contribution!
>
>What is the real meaning of LAO and its origin?
>
>Since now there seems to be many contradicting hypotheses of the
>real meaning and origin of the word "LAO". Some historics defined
>that the word LAO comes from the translation of DAO (star) D --> L
>Another related to the name of a river that get its source from
>China (well known Mekong River that flows down from the Tibet
>mountains). Conversely different hypothesis says that the word
>LAO transfigured from the word LAWA (short stress on the last word)
>Unfortunately, actual school books teach not so much about our
>prehistory... But it must be relevant literature remaining somewhere!
>Generation succession is not enough to transfer sufficient
>knowledge upon our history and there are so few people that are
>doing research on this field...

I'm afraid none of these are correct. The term "Lao" is a very ancient one which can be traced back
well over 2000 years. The cradle of the great Lao civilisation was the region of southern China
around Baoshan, Tali, and Tiensu where they called themselves the Ailao. There is also a range of
mountains in this area called the Ailao mountains, and it is not clear whether the people were named
after the mountains or vice-versa; however it seems most likely that the name of the people came
first and that other groups (particularly the Han Chinese) called the mountain range after them
since that was where they lived at the time. Ailao could also have been the name of an early king.
The term "Shan" from northern Burma is also named after Ailao, but is a corrupted abbreviation - the
Lao in northern Burma originally called themselves the "thai meng luang Ailao shan" = "the people
from the great city of the Ailao mountains" (shan comes directly from the Chinese meaning mountain)
- the Burmans of lowland Burma could not understand Lao of course so the just took the last word
"Shan". The word "thai" just means "people from" of course, and was never used to mean an ethnic
group until 1939 when the Siamese saw the Japanese planning to take over Indochina and wanted a
hegemonistic excuse for absorbing Laos into Siam by falsely claiming that they were all the "Thai"
race. There was never any such thing as the Thai race or Tai race - the term was based on a
misunderstanding by early French visitors.

Ancient Chinese manuscripts refer to the Ailao or the Lao tribes or the Meng Lao tribes. For example
in 271 AD the Chinese general Tao Huang refered to the "Lao barbarians who were strong and cruel.
During their entire history they never made an act of submission". Just 30 years ago the terms
Ai-leo or Ai-lieu were still used by the Vietnamese for the ethnic Lao groups in Vietnam, and
similarly the term Ai-liu was used by the Khmer.

>
>PHONGSAVADANE LAO
>
>Old experienced people surely well know about this unvaluable
>"Lao History Book". Old people's saying teaches: "Yark pai nar
>Hai Beung Lang" (Wanna go forward - First look back)...

- Always good advice!

>
>OLD LAO LANGUAGE "DHARM": MIX OF PALI + SANSRAKIT

NO! The Lao language is far older than Sanskrit and Pali. The Lao language came from the birthplace
of the Lao people in the Baoshan, Tali, Tiensu region thousands of years ago - probably 5000 years
ago or more. The Pali and Sanskrit languages came far later when Buddhism arrived from India -
mainly with King Fa Ngum in 1353 when he brought Theravada Buddhism from Cambodia along with the
sacred Prabang and the Khmer king's daughter as his wife. However the Lao SCRIPT is derived from
Sanskrit and Pali.

You should the religious language or "dharm" (largely from Sanskrit and Pali) from the ancient Lao
language which is much older. The word saen = 100,000 is an ancient Lao word that came South from
Baoshan, while the word saenya = troops is a Sanskrit word that much later came North via Cambodia
from India and East via northern Burma.

>
>What was the real origin of the old lao "DHARM" that, actually,
>we see on common "Bai Lane" (Old Lao Transcript) or Stone
>Transcript in most of lao temples "Wat" and religious sites?
>When our ancestors used it for first?
>
>MORE QUESTIONS
>
>There are so many uncleared questions that remain mysterious
>until now such as the famous Xieng Khouang's "Thong Hai Hine"
>or "Plain of Jars", "Wat Phou" Champassak, "Phra Keo Morakot"
>etc. That's one reason why these questions are continously
>asked and discussed... endless!

Wat Phou was originally part of the Cham civilisation which predated the Khmer civilisation at
Angkor Wat. The Cham kingdom was originally founded on the Vietnamese coast north of Camranh Bay,
and later spread further south to the Mekong delta and west to the Mekong valley. The later parts of
Wat Phou were part of the pre-Angkhor Khmer civilisation.

Pha Keo Marakot was originally made in India (I forget when offhand, but over 2000 years ago) where
it remained for most of its life. Later it was sent on a journey to Ceylon, but the ship got lost in
a storm and eventually landed in Cambodia. It was later given to the Lao king as a gift by the Khmer
king. At that time the capital of the Lao kingdom of Lane Xang was in the north, and several times
the capital moved between Xieng Mai, Xieng Hai, and later Xieng Thong Xieng Dong (renamed Luang
Prabang) and eventually Vientiane. Later it was stolen by the Siamese along with the Prabang when
they looted Vientiane.

xieng...@usa.net

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Jun 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/13/97

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Sabaidee!

Just would like to thank for your kind contribution! And I
also suggest you to reduce your typing format because your
paragraphs are very long and don't fit with normal PC screen!
I would be grateful if you could type in more shorter format
for next time! (You may have a very large PC screen!)

However, I appreciated your useful information... let's see
what other people have and then make conclusion...

How about our dear respectful Chaosin please?

Sincerely yours,

Xieng Mieng.

PS: (I just like a big ignorant now!)

In article <33a08189...@news.clara.net>,
Fre...@cfdl.clara.net*** wrote:
>

bch...@gil.com.au

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Jun 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/13/97

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From: Benja Chanasit <bch...@gil.com.au>

:From: Bureng Nua...@fagnum-co.com.la
:Newsgroups: soc.culture.laos
:References: <8661277...@dejanews.com>
: Here's I've found the real meaning of "LAO" and its origin
:from a book of friend of mine.
:
: LAO (sanskrit)adj. = big, tall
Do I believe it ? "BIG NO...." In Sanskrit there is no Sara 'ao' as
pronounced by us. In fact, Sanskrit has another vowel sound like
this one (ow) so your real meaning is totally wrong na khrab !
:
:As of the reliable information is doubtful! I believe that one
:of our ancient researcher concluded the translation to be
:"DAO"="STAR" or "Great people" for the most proudest
:people. Hope it's will helps for learning.
It is a product of research firstly printed in Siamese script that
tries to explain the possibility of Sara 'D' ---> 'L'. It's likely most
possible to believe this HYPOTHESES :-)

:I, myself just came from Laos and of course the English
:mistaken happens... Sorry!
:
: Sincerely,
: Bureng Nuaung
:
:-----------------------------------------------------
In article <8661277...@dejanews.com>, xieng...@usa.net says...

>
>HISTORY vs HYPOTHESES
>
>My questions may be naive and my knowledge modest but I want to
>exchange more reliable information as possible about our correct
>origin (lao people origin). Hope for your all relevant
>contribution!
>
>What is the real meaning of LAO and its origin?
>

It means 'cut' 'cut off', 'reap' if the word was derived from 'Lu' or 'Luu'

>Since now there seems to be many contradicting hypotheses of the
>real meaning and origin of the word "LAO". Some historics defined
>that the word LAO comes from the translation of DAO (star) D --> L

If Laos means 'Dao', then Thai means 'Moon' (in Tamil language) !

>Another related to the name of a river that get its source from
>China (well known Mekong River that flows down from the Tibet
>mountains). Conversely different hypothesis says that the word
>LAO transfigured from the word LAWA (short stress on the last word)
>Unfortunately, actual school books teach not so much about our
>prehistory... But it must be relevant literature remaining somewhere!
>Generation succession is not enough to transfer sufficient
>knowledge upon our history and there are so few people that are
>doing research on this field...
>

>PHONGSAVADANE LAO
>
>Old experienced people surely well know about this unvaluable
>"Lao History Book". Old people's saying teaches: "Yark pai nar
>Hai Beung Lang" (Wanna go forward - First look back)...

good sayings indeed !

>OLD LAO LANGUAGE "DHARM": MIX OF PALI + SANSRAKIT
>

I always understand that it's a mixer of local language (phasa phuen
muang : Nitsai) and Indian language ! This is a sample only
จ่nพากัoรัdสาสีoห้า ย่าพากัoข้าฝูงสัR
Jong-Phaa-Kahn-Rahksa-Siin-Haa Yaa Phaa Kahn Khaa Fuung Saht
(please use DhamLao font to read it)

>What was the real origin of the old lao "DHARM" that, actually,
>we see on common "Bai Lane" (Old Lao Transcript) or Stone
>Transcript in most of lao temples "Wat" and religious sites?
>When our ancestors used it for first?

According to a Laotian scholar, it is Laos who borrowed scripts
from the Yuan Xieng Mai/Hai and Yuan borrowed them from Lue. I
believe that you borrowed it directly or indirectly from Khmer and
Mon. As far as I know of, the Brahmi script of Asoka was widely
used in India approx. year 300 Buddhist Era. Since then, I would give
during 500 years for Khmer scripts and another 1,000 years for the
Laos script to be fully developed and widely used. I would like to
hear other's opinion too.

>
>MORE QUESTIONS
>
>There are so many uncleared questions that remain mysterious
>until now such as the famous Xieng Khouang's "Thong Hai Hine"
>or "Plain of Jars", "Wat Phou" Champassak, "Phra Keo Morakot"
>etc. That's one reason why these questions are continously
>asked and discussed... endless!

Plain of Jars belonged to the Khaa (moi/ph_nong) civilization that
you stealed it from. However, Preah Kaew will be in Thailand for
many years to come in my little brain. maybe until you return the
whole land to the khaa.

>
>FUTURE ASSOCIATION OF LAO HISTORICS?
>
>That's may be the best answer to solve this above problem...
>
>Please contribute to the Newsgroup!

I hope others will contribute the truth as the truth will prevail for
century.

>
>Jong phoom chai ti kert pen LAO,
>
>Xieng Mieng.
>
>PS: First try for a serious article, my excuses for any mistakes
> and poor level of English...
>

Regards,
Benja

Campaign for Freedom and Democracy in Laos

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Jun 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/14/97

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On 12 Jun 1997 13:01:04 -0700, Bureng Nua...@fagnum-co.com.la wrote:

>sabaydee all,
>Xiengmieng! you are not only a good Tricker but you're very intelligence person
>too.

> Here's I've found the real meaning of "LAO" and its origin from a book of
>friend of mine.
>
> LAO (sanskrit)adj. = big, tall
>

>As of the reliable information is doubtful! I believe that one of our ancient
>researcher concluded the translation to be "DAO"="STAR" or "Great people" for
>the most proudest people. Hope it's will helps for learning.

>I, myself just came from Laos and of course the English mistaken happens...
>Sorry!
>
> Sincerely,
> Bureng Nuaung
>

I'm afraid your book is completely wrong. The name Lao is much older than the Sanskrit language
itself, so it cannot possibly come from Sanskrit. Furthermore there was not any substantial
influence of Sanskrit on Lao culture until 1353 when King Fa Ngum introduced Theravada Buddhism from
Cambodia. On the other hand ancient Chinese manuscripts prove that the Lao people called themselves
Lao/Ailao by 300 BC !!

Benja Chanasit

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Jun 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/14/97

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>>OLD LAO LANGUAGE "DHARM": MIX OF PALI + SANSRAKIT
>
>NO! The Lao language is far older than Sanskrit and Pali. The Lao language came from the birthplace
>of the Lao people in the Baoshan, Tali, Tiensu region thousands of years ago - probably 5000 years
>ago or more.

You're correct here. The laotian 'spoken' language would be older
than Sanskrit and Pali 'scripts'. The civilization in my opinion should be
counted from the revolution of written literature.

>The Pali and Sanskrit languages came far later when Buddhism arrived from India -
>mainly with King Fa Ngum in 1353 when he brought Theravada Buddhism from Cambodia along with the
>sacred Prabang and the Khmer king's daughter as his wife. However the Lao SCRIPT is derived from
>Sanskrit and Pali.

I don't agree with you. I thought that this S-E asia land had imported the
religion from India longer than 1353. The influence of Buddhism had been
impact on this land probably since the King Asoka (cir. 243 B.C) or King
Kanittha (cir. 100 AD).

>
>You should the religious language or "dharm" (largely from Sanskrit and Pali) from the ancient Lao
>language which is much older. The word saen = 100,000 is an ancient Lao word that came South from
>Baoshan, while the word saenya = troops is a Sanskrit word that much later came North via Cambodia
>from India and East via northern Burma.

Gee...! Saenya is neither Pali nor Sanskrit word. In fact, it's typical of
combinaion between Shan's word (Sae^n) and Indian word (Aa-nu-bha-wa
or Aa-kara /Aa-korn). By the power of the Yor-Ying at the final spelling
of word 'Sae^n', it makes the new following letter to be pronounced as the
same. It's something like when you say the word 'this is' ----> 'this sis' !
It is used very often as a single word, and later on the ^n (yor ying) has
been replaced by n (nor nahk: bird) with the same meaning (100,000).

>>etc. That's one reason why these questions are continously
>>asked and discussed... endless!
>Wat Phou was originally part of the Cham civilisation which predated the Khmer civilisation at
>Angkor Wat. The Cham kingdom was originally founded on the Vietnamese coast north of Camranh Bay,
>and later spread further south to the Mekong delta and west to the Mekong valley. The later parts of
>Wat Phou were part of the pre-Angkhor Khmer civilisation.

This sis to prove that this land was influenced by Indian culture long time
before King FaNgum introduced and declared Theravadin Buddhism as
Laotian national religion.

>
>Pha Keo Marakot was originally made in India (I forget when offhand, but over 2000 years ago) where
>it remained for most of its life. Later it was sent on a journey to Ceylon, but the ship got lost in
>a storm and eventually landed in Cambodia.

Please check your data on hand again. It could be that The Ceylon King
sent Preah Kaew for Nakhon SiDhammaraj King as a friendly gift.

>It was later given to the Lao king as a gift by the Khmer
>king. At that time the capital of the Lao kingdom of Lane Xang was in the north, and several times
>the capital moved between Xieng Mai, Xieng Hai, and later Xieng Thong Xieng Dong (renamed Luang
>Prabang) and eventually Vientiane. Later it was stolen by the Siamese along with the Prabang when
>they looted Vientiane.

Can you tell me about the names and chronicles of the King you
claimed above ? I knew that the Somdej Chao PreahYaa Mahaa Kasatsuek
has "INVITED" PreahKaew to stay in Dhonburi and bkk. Before that I might
mostly be deaf and blind ! thanks
Hahk-Paeng
Benja

Campaign for Freedom and Democracy in Laos

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Jun 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/14/97

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On 13 Jun 1997 01:23:13, bch...@gil.com.au wrote:

>From: Benja Chanasit <bch...@gil.com.au>
>
>>
>>What is the real meaning of LAO and its origin?
>>
>It means 'cut' 'cut off', 'reap' if the word was derived from 'Lu' or 'Luu'

It was not derived from Lu or Luu. It was derived from the ancient name for the Lao: Ailao.
Therefore it does not mean cut, cut off, or reap.

>
>>Since now there seems to be many contradicting hypotheses of the
>>real meaning and origin of the word "LAO". Some historics defined
>>that the word LAO comes from the translation of DAO (star) D --> L
>If Laos means 'Dao', then Thai means 'Moon' (in Tamil language) !

You can find analogous sounds in many completely unrelated languages. That is simply not the point.
You have to look at the etymology of the words, not look for words of similar sound in other
languages.

>
>
>>OLD LAO LANGUAGE "DHARM": MIX OF PALI + SANSRAKIT
>>

>I always understand that it's a mixer of local language (phasa phuen
>muang : Nitsai) and Indian language ! This is a sample only
> จ่nพากัoรัdสาสีoห้า ย่าพากัoข้าฝูงสัR
> Jong-Phaa-Kahn-Rahksa-Siin-Haa Yaa Phaa Kahn Khaa Fuung Saht
> (please use DhamLao font to read it)
>
>>What was the real origin of the old lao "DHARM" that, actually,
>>we see on common "Bai Lane" (Old Lao Transcript) or Stone
>>Transcript in most of lao temples "Wat" and religious sites?
>>When our ancestors used it for first?
>According to a Laotian scholar, it is Laos who borrowed scripts
>from the Yuan Xieng Mai/Hai and Yuan borrowed them from Lue. I
>believe that you borrowed it directly or indirectly from Khmer and
>Mon. As far as I know of, the Brahmi script of Asoka was widely
>used in India approx. year 300 Buddhist Era. Since then, I would give
>during 500 years for Khmer scripts and another 1,000 years for the
>Laos script to be fully developed and widely used. I would like to
>hear other's opinion too.
>>

Khmer transcriptions on stone clearly demonstrate that well after 1000 AD the Khmer script was very
radically different from modern Cambodian script, and even up to the seventeenth century they were
still markedly different from the modern script. Scripts slowly evolve over the centuries in all
countries, but you cannot in general measure the creation of a nation's script in hundreds or
thousands of years, especially where it is created by adapting another nation's script. Only 2 days
ago for example I was reading a book about Laos which was printed in Paris (in French) in 1666, and
that too took a bit of getting used to because the French script in the seventeenth century was a
little different from now (especially f,s,t,v,u, ...). A new script can easily be created in a few
years, by a single person or by a group; it will then evolve slowly ever after, for as long as the
script remains in use (mainly slowly, but with major revisions from time to time). For example the
Russian script was invented by three Greek Byzantine monks took their religion to Russia and who
invented a new script to represent the new sounds of Russian based on the Greek script. I don't have
the details available, but the dates and even the names of the three monks are known. Therefore it
is not correct to simply allow X hundred years for the language to move from India to Cambodia and Y
hundred years to move from Cambodia to Laos - instead you have to look for specific dates or periods
of cultural and religious exchange and find out when foreign scripts were introduced and changes
were made.

Indian Buddhist monks visited Laos long before King Fa Ngum, and probably brought Sanskrit texts
with them for their own use - this is not relevant - the question is firstly when the Lao people
themselves started using a given script (Sanskrit/Khmer/Lao etc) and secondly when a foreign script
was modified to become a new Lao script. Although the latter could have happened before Fa Ngum it
is highly unlikely since it is known that Buddhism was never popular in Laos until Fa Ngum brought
Theravada Buddhism from Cambodia in 1353. It is well established that Buddhism immediately became
very popular among the Lao, and therefore it would be reasonable to assume that the Sanskrit and
Khmer scripts were introduced at that time. It is also probable that the Khmer script would have
been adapted to represent the Lao sounds within a few years.

xieng...@usa.net

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Jun 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/15/97

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Sabaidee Bureng Nuaung/FreeLao et al !

I'm not a "tricker" as you suggested. I just want to know
other people's opinions about "Lao Origin", because I don't
have the precious History Book "Phongsavadane Lao" and want
to share from others (I only heard about it, but never read)

Recently, there was an article published in "Pasaxon" Newspaper
written about "Lao Origin". The author has done a little research
and concluded that actually there are many unclear and
contradicting hypotheses about the word "LAO". I don't remember
the writer's name but he's one of our great nobles. But he writes
not so often (that's why)...

I agree with FreeLao that "Tai" from southern Chinese upland
are our ancestors... and before them?

The word "Shan" and "Tai" are somewhat related... but I don't
know exactly... we should wait for more experienced people...

I'm also in accord with FreeLao that Thais have abused of the
similarity between the words "Tai" and "Thai" in some dishonest
purpose...

Both Lao and Thai people are from the same "Tai"... I'm still
perplex from where come the words "Lao Yai" and "Tai Yai"?

Anyway, thanks for your both kind contribution Bureng Nuaung
and Free Lao!

(Bureng Nuaung may be right with LAO : BIG, TALL = LAO YAI?)

PS: (Respectful Chaosin + "Satjadham", please help us!)

Yours,

Xieng Mieng.

In article <33a1d038...@news.clara.net>,

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------

Brian Dodds

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Jun 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/16/97

to

Hi there BJ,

I hope you would not mind if I were to make a comment or two here.

Benja Chanasit wrote:
>
> >>OLD LAO LANGUAGE "DHARM": MIX OF PALI + SANSRAKIT
> >
> >NO! The Lao language is far older than Sanskrit and Pali. The Lao language came from the birthplace
> >of the Lao people in the Baoshan, Tali, Tiensu region thousands of years ago - probably 5000 years
> >ago or more.

> You're correct here. The laotian 'spoken' language would be older
> than Sanskrit and Pali 'scripts'. The civilization in my opinion should be
> counted from the revolution of written literature.

So, according to your proposition here is that civilization starts with
revolutionalized written literature. What about Vietnam or Hmong or any
other ethnics who have used the Roman characters for their writing? Are
these people civilized? If they are, their civilization has probably
started not too long ago (maybe 50 years or so?).
To me, civilization is counted at the time when human beings were enable
to invent tools and use them for their daily survival.

> >Pha Keo Marakot was originally made in India (I forget when offhand, but over 2000 years ago) where
> >it remained for most of its life. Later it was sent on a journey to Ceylon, but the ship got lost in
> >a storm and eventually landed in Cambodia.

> Please check your data on hand again. It could be that The Ceylon King
> sent Preah Kaew for Nakhon SiDhammaraj King as a friendly gift.
>

Where is the " Nakhon SiDhammaraj" as of now? and who was the king at
that time?

> >It was later given to the Lao king as a gift by the Khmer
> >king. At that time the capital of the Lao kingdom of Lane Xang was in the north, and several times
> >the capital moved between Xieng Mai, Xieng Hai, and later Xieng Thong Xieng Dong (renamed Luang
> >Prabang) and eventually Vientiane. Later it was stolen by the Siamese along with the Prabang when
> >they looted Vientiane.

Is Xiang Hai the same as Xiang Rai?

> Can you tell me about the names and chronicles of the King you
> claimed above ? I knew that the Somdej Chao PreahYaa Mahaa Kasatsuek
> has "INVITED" PreahKaew to stay in Dhonburi and bkk. Before that I might
> mostly be deaf and blind ! thanks
> Hahk-Paeng
> Benja

BJ, was this "Somdej Chao PreahYaa Mahaa Kasatsuek" a Siamese king? If
so, whom his invitation was addressed to? Can you please be more
specific about the story? From what I've learned back in six grade, it
was like the Siamese came in and looted Viantiane and took it. That is,
it was stolen not rented nor invited as you have proposed.

Best wishes,
Sam

Brian Dodds

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Jun 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/16/97

to

Hi there friend,

I must admit that I've learned a lot here. However, please allow me to
ask you a couple of questions.

> I'm afraid none of these are correct. The term "Lao" is a very ancient one which can be traced back
> well over 2000 years. The cradle of the great Lao civilisation was the region of southern China
> around Baoshan, Tali, and Tiensu where they called themselves the Ailao. There is also a range of
> mountains in this area called the Ailao mountains, and it is not clear whether the people were named
> after the mountains or vice-versa; however it seems most likely that the name of the people came
> first and that other groups (particularly the Han Chinese) called the mountain range after them
> since that was where they lived at the time. Ailao could also have been the name of an early king.
> The term "Shan" from northern Burma is also named after Ailao, but is a corrupted abbreviation - the
> Lao in northern Burma originally called themselves the "thai meng luang Ailao shan" = "the people
> from the great city of the Ailao mountains" (shan comes directly from the Chinese meaning mountain)
> - the Burmans of lowland Burma could not understand Lao of course so the just took the last word
> "Shan". The word "thai" just means "people from" of course, and was never used to mean an ethnic
> group until 1939 when the Siamese saw the Japanese planning to take over Indochina and wanted a
> hegemonistic excuse for absorbing Laos into Siam by falsely claiming that they were all the "Thai"
> race. There was never any such thing as the Thai race or Tai race - the term was based on a
> misunderstanding by early French visitors.

So, if there was any such thing as Tai race, what about "Tai Dam"? Does
this mean "Khon Dam" or else? Furthermore, king "Sam Sean Thai" of the
Lane Xang was really a king of "300,000 family or khon or people"? Yes,
I understand that the lao is currently using the word "Thai" to describe
people from certain regions or areas and it really does not mean
describing the "race".

Best wishes,
Sam

Chaosinh Saysanom

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Jun 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/16/97

to xieng...@usa.net

In article <8662027...@dejanews.com>,

|>
|> How about our dear respectful Chaosin please?
|>
|> Sincerely yours,
|>
|> Xieng Mieng.
|>

--------------

Hi, Sabaydi Xieng Mieng, Dr. Thanitha and erespectable readers,
As our thread on the Tri-Pitaka, Ya-Moe, and the question on the Killing
at the Saraburi river. Concerning the Siamese copy from our Tripitaka,
I have send to Dr. Thanitha the Xerox of that page, except to him to
put it in his home page. Now today I like to reply to his question
about the passage of the killing at the Saraburi river. It is good
that Dr. Thanitha asked for the clarification on the killing at the
Saraburi river, which we can find it in the report on the Prince
Bovoradet 's afirs and quote in the Ya-Moe 's thesis. This Thesis
full title is "Kar Muong Ney Anusavary Thao Sura-Nary" or the "Politic
inside the statue of Drug-and-Girls" by Nang SayPhim Keo-Ngaam-Praseuth,
published by Matichon publication, selection of Silapa VatthanaDham
special issue, ISBN 974-7115-88-3, First Edition 1995.

In Chapter 2, page 58, for the Siamese Chauvinist see this event as
Rebellion of Rachasima people, but the true, this movement was
reinforced by the people of Saraburi and around Ayudhaya too, and
occupied the Done Muong Airfield, then several people from other
upland join in etc.. It begin by a Petra Lieutenant-Colonel, trained in the
French Army Academy who with his gand of 35 harassed people of upland,
and he continue to do so after he gained the power. For the people of
this Golden Plateau is a liberation war against occupation and opression
as they have done in BE 2369 (1826). They will take any opportunity to
step in any event to liberate their land. They will join any Forces
to top the strong first then eliminate their opponents, but they failed
again in the battle of 11 to 25 October BE 2476 (1933). Similar to
the first one the Siamese Chauvinist made a "Coup Monte' " a trap
and lure to the killing field, a narrow pass closing with a straight
cliff by the Saraburi river. They have blow out their fire blindly
and killing intensely between 13 to 16 October 1933, and captures several
"Phou Hak Sat and Phou Gney Khow-Niao", and comdemned them to dead,
i.e., Colonel Payudh Ariyan etc.. At the page 60 you can see the passage
of killing that the innocent victims bodies floating overfloat the Saraburi
river as large as the Raffle who bridgw the both edge of the river
bank. In the thesis said ..." Kar Khow Ti Dhi Bang Khaen Lae Lak-Si..."
the attack at village BANG KHAEN and at the Park Kilometer Four, where
this location is on the bank of the Saraburi river as I have described
from my last post, which Nang SayPhim quoted from the press as she
marked at the end of this paragraph quote number #9 ( a letter from
Lieutenant-Colonel LeungLouk Paccamitr to his commander Vijey Yendr
dated 21 October BE 2476 (1933). Even with this declaration LeungLouk
didn't get the Bronze statue like Ya-Moe.

When the Petra occupied the city of Rachasima, and just to show how
strong their power, and how many "Khow-Hniao" they have killed,
they exhumed, unearthed victims cacavers and made the public
crmation in the open field. According to Lao Buddhist rite, we don't
do this way, once the body put in rest, we don't disturb the body,
and we should not unearth the body. After the cremation, the Petra
perform the show of forces again, by parade their army around the
Rachasima City 's belt. For the Petra faction, they said this event was
made for their benefit. Some one tell me that, until later on, some
of the Petra received the visit of the "Kwan" or spirit of these
brave Hak Sat men whom perished in this river, then the Petra changed
their policy toward this highland people and do perform a public funeral
ceremony to apease the soul of all victims and to heal their families.
Despite all ceremonies, and build up new statue of Drug-and-Girls with
her higher stand platform, the resistance continue to work silencely
underground since 62 years, now it blow up again by this thesis,
however the author is not origin from Rachasima, but she saw a good
vision to revel to the world the true story which was bias and distorted
for 171 years. She doesn't want to let it goes by this way. She want to
build a good image and good attitude for her countrymen in the New
world order, but in vain. This thesis was forbidden to sell and classified.
Who will hurt in this affars? Of course the first, is the World
citizen, the peace lover, and the second is the publisher Matichon,
who invested money for nothing, but Matichon is brave, I adore their
courage. The VIRIYA of these Khow-Hniao people will not end here, it
will be bloming again as the Dok Champa and Dok Hak, symbol of peace
and love, Lao people still singing these songs.

Concerning the second topic, the Siamese look down on Lao people
"Dou Thouk Gon Lao", you can read at the page 61 at this bottom page
she quote "...the Siamese soldiers and Louk Seua from Krungtheb, some
of them used the bad and dirty words striking against innocent people,
they have abused at their will...". To me, I beleived that these soldiers
and Louk Seua must got the order to do do as they beleive the winner
has right to do anything at their will, as they wanted in barbaric
culture. Their bosses didn't encourage them to learn about Dhamma and
to use METTA Pany to human being. Until today some Petra still dare to
abuse, despite the members of the parliament from the upland have made
a special request to the public not to think about this atitude.

Imagine that this thesis was rightly cowned with MA degree by
Thammast University, one of the famous University in the Region, and
supposely legal for free circulation in the Kingdom, but since
February 1996 it was not allowed to sell it nor for free circulation
by the Petra gang? Why? Where is the free press? Where is the
Democracy in the New World Order. Shall we keep our eyes expressly blind
and deaf ears. With the Internet, a tool to promote free speeches, we
still heard an isolate case like tghe one has read this thesis, but still
play a Petra frole, instead to recognize to voice of the opressed people
and try to correct self attitude and looking for the Dhamma book and
learn it in the spirit of friendshipand humanly METTA; if not wanted
to folllow this Buddhist wisdom, the UN Charter with its protocoles
are here to guide self in to the path of the World Citizen. The UN Charter
is not differ much from the Buddha Dhamma for the self restrain and not
to abuse others, as said in the second stanza of the Eightfold path
Samma Vacama.

Pardon me, if my writing hurt some one, but it was the reality. We are ib
the modern era, not only for the material advancement, but also
humanly mental alert. The European Colonialist which some of us
considerate them as Barbarian, but I didn't see that way. I see they are more
developped METTA than us, i.e., the President of the New Russia recognized
the mistake of their forefathers and colleagues, whom committed
atrocities, on behalf of theirs, he hjas apology to Hungary etc., but
if we compare them to us as Asian, people of Peace Devotion, i.e., the
Kamiakaze leaders and their allied of the Axis, with their "Tete de Bouc"
still locking their mouths and minds, not wanted to recognize their
atrocities committed to their fellow Asians.

Dear readers, we learn from the pass to prevent the same atrocities.
I hope that one day, some one will have the generosity to translate this
thesis into all world languages. If my counterpart of this debate has
the courage to do a good turn, he should translate this thesis into
English and let the world know the true. I consisder him always as my brother
friend and partner, without him, I will not have the opportunity to revel
the true. The kite can only fly high when it has the strong opposition
wind. May I take this opportunity to thank Nang SayPhaim Keo-Ngaam-Praseuth,
you have done as the meaning of your name. Your parent must be a sacred
Phrophet as they have well predicted of what their daughter will be, a
banner of Freedom, a victime of Petra, and who know a Martyr of Free
speeches? I believe if she is living here in US, she might have another
style of writing. The word "SayPhim" was once used as sacred word of
the Buddha and recognized as CANON which the Lord Buddha has used it to
express his view on his Attha Magga or the Eightfold path theory. And
in this thesis Nang SayPhim has followed the same path of Attha Magga,
but with the concrete and true story. Has she talk about Panca Sila?
Has she talk about Panadhipatave RamaniSikka...?
Has she talk about Adhinna...?
Has she talk about MusaVadhave...?
Has she talk about Kame Sumicha Carave...?
Has she talk about Sura Meraya Sappama...?
Yes, all of these are in this thesis. Similarly in the way that a Bhikkhu
has given a lecture on Buddhism to Acoka Raja, the author of Milindha
Panha, he has understood, and comprehended the Dhamma, so he has changed his
attitude and converted all of his family to Buddhism, but contrary to him,
one or some one amongt us, has or have read this thesis, instead to see
Dhamma like Acoka, became a Petra, just the opposite of Acoka.

I would like to thank to all jurist members and concilors of the thesis that
they have the courage to give a good advice and judge, and stand for the true
academically. All of this team, the author, the Thammasat University, and
the Sing Daeng should be proud of this thesis. I would like to propose
that Thammasat University should be recognized by UNESCO and the Peace Nobel
Organizatiuon. It was in the pass aS it will be in the futire, the battle ring
for freedom promoteres.

Dear Dr. Thanitha, may I ask you a great favor, I beg you to donate you
love for humanity, please do a Xerox copy of your book "Kar Muong Ney
Thao Sura Nary" by SayPhim Keo-Ngaam-Praseuth for me. I like to compare your
copy to the one I have borrowed fdrom my friend to read. The second
opinion is necessary to discover the trust.

It is indeed a long talk, have a nice day.

Hak Pheng,

CHAOSINH SAYSANOM

-------------

Notes:
During 1930-34, Siam was in its great depression. The peasants could not
pay their taxes or their creditors. They could not purchase retain goods,
The upland people must venture into Bangkok to look for job, even with
underpaid, they must accept the job in order to survive. Despite Siam
has hired Brtish Financial Advisers, the price of rice, the basic necessity
of life was rocketed. At that time She need a reform or another "R".
The former trainees from France has already organized to take the power,
and so the upland people with less advantage.

The Petra once got the power became dictator, and continue to oppresse
the Khow-Hniao people of Upland until he lost his power and died in
exile in Japan, the land of his alliance.

Prince Bovoradet, Grand son of Chulalongkorn, who has been Minister of
War under Prajadhipok or Rama VII, was accused as rebel leader to
counter the Petra, and on the 25th October 1933 has fled to exile
in Laos and was well received by our King of Laos Sri Savang Vong.
To me this story is look like it was only from yesterday, despite it
has the same length of my age. I remember, one of the Bovoradet
follower has stayed in my house fo a long time, and he has gave me
all detail of his experiences. END.

Khambao Panyasak

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Jun 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/17/97

to Bureng, Nua...@fagnum-co.com.la

Bureng, Nua...@fagnum-co.com.la wrote:
>
> Sabaydee Mr.FreeLao and all,
> I believe Oxford or Cambridge has a Lao-English dictionary of former King
> Sisavang Vatthana's dedications, edited back to 1970... or English-Sanskrit.
> Or if you are un Francais! tu peux trouver dans le Bibliotheque du George
> Pompidou juste au Centre ville de Paris a cote du Metro Chatelet.
> Then you will find what is the word "LAO" from real Lao people translation
> means. But not from the ALL COLONISATEURS have tried to teach us.
>
> All the best
> Bureng Nuaung
>

Sabai Di BN,
Pourrais-je avoir la confirmation que le serveur "fagnum-co.com.la
se trouve au Laos ?. - le suffixe .la me laisse supposer.
Khor khorb tiay luang na.
Sok di,
Khambao

Benja Chanasit

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Jun 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/19/97

to

>So, if there was any such thing as Tai race, what about "Tai Dam"? Does
>this mean "Khon Dam" or else? Furthermore, king "Sam Sean Thai" of the
>Lane Xang was really a king of "300,000 family or khon or people"? Yes,
>I understand that the lao is currently using the word "Thai" to describe
>people from certain regions or areas and it really does not mean
>describing the "race".

Thai Dam (Black Thai) is well known as Thai S_ong (wm3-j' ;
年-搂趣; 猥瑙) of which they can be found in central Thailand - Rajburi,
Phetburi, Nakhon Pathom and of course Suphanburi etc. The females
would love to keep very long hairs and tie them together with their combs
as for one of their remarkable symbol. Yes, these gentle and generous
peoples are very skillful in fishings, play Khaen (eat both sticky rice and
normal rice) and like to ware the Lai-Phaa-Thung-Dam.
If you want to learn more about them, please go to U-Thong meseum,
Suphanburi and you will see the S_ong's Kwains (carts) and others historic
objects concerning about Thai/Laos.
The King Saam Saen Thai got the name from the census that shows
the 300,000 Laotian males being ready to be recruited in mighty army. Don't be
confusing this good king with Saam_Sen district in bkk of which it
means the three falcons. However, the word Thai or Tai (with or w/o
wannayuk Mai To) means 'free from slave' as they used to be Dtaasa,
Dhassii and barbarian in the past (repeat in the PAST) as they had
jointed the same root, same family with Khaa, Khoi, moi, ph_nong etc.
These peoples drink the Nom (milk) from the same mother. I think Khaa
was the Ai brother.... Anyway, they were invaded by Aariya/nordic
peoples from the north (altai ?) but their civilization has been established
long times before the age of barbarian invasion. Baan Chiang pottery
is one of slant sample of these Siamoise Dravidian civilization. In my
opinion, one who speak different dialects (Phasa Farang), go abroad,
eat MaC Burg, use computer, look down others, and regard themselves
as more civilised mankind, is not much different from my Dravidian peoples.
Moreover, agriculture peoples are not idiot and they have a good heart which
is a main quality of human beings.

Best wishes,
>Sam
Benja

Benja Chanasit

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Jun 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/20/97

to

>> You're correct here. The laotian 'spoken' language would be older
>> than Sanskrit and Pali 'scripts'. The civilization in my opinion should be
>> counted from the revolution of written literature.
>So, according to your proposition here is that civilization starts with
>revolutionalized written literature. What about Vietnam or Hmong or any
>other ethnics who have used the Roman characters for their writing? Are
>these people civilized? If they are, their civilization has probably
>started not too long ago (maybe 50 years or so?).

It depends on the topic/paragraph. Here was about Tua Dham or old
traditional Laos language I referred to. In my record, I know that one
of the oldest Laotian writing was inscripted at Wat Vishun and I'm
willing to see it by myself one day in the near future.
To answer your question, I would say 'Yes' : Hmong, Viet, moi
and any ethnic groupgs have a good civilization long time before but
their records were lost and it is very hard or impossible to retrieve it
without official writtings or inscriptions (I think Viet used to have
their old writings)

>To me, civilization is counted at the time when human beings were enable
>to invent tools and use them for their daily survival.
>

You're correct here. The one who invents chocolate for the children
has civilized our society just as the same the country which makes the
machine guns, weapons, bombs etc. But in my opinion, one who
drives luxurious cars, reads news from computer... has no better off than
one who Khii Kwain (rides cart with cows/buffalow), Pao khaen,
Rong Pleng in the rice field and upcountry village.... Goodness and
badness should be defined within each individual (Pecchekajon), not
race, nationality, religion, colour.

>Where is the " Nakhon SiDhammaraj" as of now? and who was the king at
>that time?

Nakhon or Muang Khon was situated in the southern of Thailand of which
controled the delay points between India and China by sea. The King's name
was usually known with the title 'DhammaaSokaraj' or 'Dhammaraj'

>Is Xiang Hai the same as Xiang Rai?

Yes, it's the same as Jiang Hai. Chai_Prakaan and Faang were under
this territory in the old time.

>> has "INVITED" PreahKaew to stay in Dhonburi and bkk. Before that I might
>> mostly be deaf and blind ! thanks

>BJ, was this "Somdej Chao PreahYaa Mahaa Kasatsuek" a Siamese king? If

No, he was not yet the Siamese king at that event.

>
>so, whom his invitation was addressed to? Can you please be more
>specific about the story? From what I've learned back in six grade, it
>was like the Siamese came in and looted Viantiane and took it. That is,
>it was stolen not rented nor invited as you have proposed.

I hope it will help you having better understandings in culture. If you
wish to own the Buddha's secret image, you don't buy or purchase it. Right ?
The technical term is 'you ask/invite for Bujaa (worship) or Sao (rent) it
from someone'. The invitation regarding PreahKaew was addressed to the same
one when someone took it away from Khmer-->Chiang Rai--->Lampaang
-->Chiang Mai--->Luang Prabaang--->ViangChan--->Dhonburi-->Home
at Bangkok !

Hahk-Paeng
Benja
Ps. long time no see ! How are ya ? I don't mind your comments at all.

Long97

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Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97

to

...

BERNARD NGUYEN

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Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97

to sa...@bangate1.wv.tek.com

SABAYDI CHAOSSINH
J'AI TROUVE VOS LETTRES A XIENGMIEMG AU SUJET DE
LAO ET THAI TRES BIEN FAITES... FELICITATIONS
ON N'EN FINIS PAS AVEC CES SIAMOIS QUI DEPUIS TOUJOURS
NOUS DETRUISENT ET NOUDS MEPRISENT.
MERCI
FELICITATIONS
CHAMPA

xieng...@usa.net

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Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97

to

...!?

In article <33AB8...@prodigy.net>,

Campaign for Freedom and Democracy in Laos

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Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97

to

On 15 Jun 1997 09:25:59 -0700, Bureng Nua...@fagnum-co.com.la wrote:

>Sabaydee Mr.FreeLao and all,
>I believe Oxford or Cambridge has a Lao-English dictionary of former King
>Sisavang Vatthana's dedications, edited back to 1970... or English-Sanskrit.
>Or if you are un Francais! tu peux trouver dans le Bibliotheque du George
>Pompidou juste au Centre ville de Paris a cote du Metro Chatelet.
>Then you will find what is the word "LAO" from real Lao people translation
>means. But not from the ALL COLONISATEURS have tried to teach us.
>
> All the best
> Bureng Nuaung
>

There is a very large two-volume Lao-French dictionary at Oxford, perhaps that is the one you mean.
There is the Allen Kerr Lao-English, and a Lao-Russian dictionary by Molov that I have not yet seen.
There may be others but I have not had time to do a full search. There are also some Shan-English
dicrionaries. As for Sanskrit - both Oxford and Cambridge have several whole bookcases full of them,
including several that are almost as big as the Oxford English Dictionary. Unfortunately not many
Lao dictionaries have been written. I haven't seen what they have in Cambridge yet - some of the
older catalogue is not yet computerised.

Campaign for Freedom and Democracy in Laos

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Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97

to

On Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:11:42 -0600, xieng...@usa.net wrote:

>Sabaidee Bureng Nuaung/FreeLao et al !
>
>I'm not a "tricker" as you suggested. I just want to know
>other people's opinions about "Lao Origin", because I don't
>have the precious History Book "Phongsavadane Lao" and want
>to share from others (I only heard about it, but never read)
>
>Recently, there was an article published in "Pasaxon" Newspaper
>written about "Lao Origin". The author has done a little research
>and concluded that actually there are many unclear and
>contradicting hypotheses about the word "LAO". I don't remember
>the writer's name but he's one of our great nobles. But he writes
>not so often (that's why)...
>
>I agree with FreeLao that "Tai" from southern Chinese upland
>are our ancestors... and before them?

There is no such thing as the "Tai" or "Thai" - the term was originally misunderstood by the French
to be the name of an ethnic group - in fact it was just a Lao word meaning "people" or "people
from": for example the "tai Dam" means "people from the Black River", "tai Daeng" means "people from
the Red River", "tai Khao" means "people from the White River", "tai Sam" means "people from the
River Sam", etc - originally all four of these groups called themselves the "Muang Lao" and their
country they also called "Muang Lao", but after being split into different areas far apart their
customs and traditions developed in slightly different directions and so they used the region where
they lived to identify themselves more specifically. If you look up "thai" in a Lao dictionary it
will tell you what the word means - Allen Kerr for example says: "thai = man, person, inhabitant;
thai ban = villager; thai ban nork = villager, peasant; thai pa = forest dweller, savage; thai muang
= citizen, person from Luang Prabang; thai neua = northerner, mountain dweller; thai heua = boatman;
thai heuan = household". Similarly "thai Jin" means Chinese, "thai Siam" means Siamese, "thai Viet"
means Vietnamese, "thai Khmen" means Cambodian, "thai Khmu" means the Khmu ethnic group, "thai
Farang" means Frenchman, "thai Angit" means Englishman, etc. The military also use the term in the
same way, as in "thai na" = advance guard, "thai lang" = rearguard, etc.

You have to remember that when the French first came to Laos they (by definition) had no
dictionaries to refer to, and no independent French reference, and the traditional use of the French
language is very different from the traditional use of the Lao language; so it is not surprising
that the early French had some misunderstandings. The early French then wrote books about the Lao
people which further propagated their misunderstandings. Then in the 1930's the Japanese were
flexing their muscles in the period leading to the Second World War, and it was clear that they
wanted to take over Vietnam from France because it was strategically very important for the Japanese
fleets. Laos had for centuries suffered from Siamese and Vietnamese invasions, and the territory
controlled by Siam at that time included a lot of Lao territory on the West bank of the Mekong such
as the Korat Plateau and the Lanna Chok in the North, and Siam was very worried that if Japan took
Laos on the East bank of the Mekong from the French they would then try and take the Lao territories
on the West bank of the Mekong back from the Siamese. The Japanese were much more powerful than the
Siamese, so Field Marshal Phibul Songkhram and his cronies exploited the old French misunderstanding
of the meaning of the Lao word "thai" and fabricated the notion of "pan-thai-ism" - claiming that
the Siamese and the Lao were allegedly from common "thai" origins and seeking to unify the "thai"
race. This was a completely fabricated concept and there was never any such thing any "thai" race,
as historians have proved by studying the archives of the ancient Chinese, Khmer, Mon, Indians etc -
nowhere is there any reference to the "thai" race except for the steel of Ramkhamhaeng which is now
widely believed to be a fake. In pre-Han texts there is no mention of any ethnic group known as Tai
or Thai - see for example Professor Terwiel, "The origin of the T'ai peoples reconsidered".

By contrast there is very substantial and ancient evidence that the Lao people always called
themselves Lao throughout their very long history. To name just a few examples, in the year 271 AD
the Chinese General Tao Huang seized the region of Jiushen, and his chronicle has many descriptions
of his campaigns, eg "The Lao barbarians were strong and cruel. During their entire history they
never made an act of submission". In the year 544 AD the chronicles of General Libi in what is now
North Vietnam record that "The territory that he governed extended to the borders of Linyi,
including Dezhou; to the north he bordered on the regions peopled by the Meng Lao tribes,
inhabitants of the upper central basin of Hong Ha and Loi, as far as the region of Lang Son. ...
Surprised by the attack, Libi's army was defeated, and his captain attempted to flee in the
mountainous regions peopled by the Lao tribes."

>
>The word "Shan" and "Tai" are somewhat related... but I don't
>know exactly... we should wait for more experienced people...

>
>I'm also in accord with FreeLao that Thais have abused of the
>similarity between the words "Tai" and "Thai" in some dishonest
>purpose...

The Siamese are basically Mon-Khmer, not Lao, and came from India and various regions to the south.
By contrast the ancient Lao civilisation came south from the Baoshan-Tali-Kunming region where they
had lived for thousands of years. There are various connections between the Siamese aristocracy and
the Lao because the two kingdoms were neighbours for many centuries and sometimes Lane
Xang/Lanna/Vientiane was more powerful and expanded south into regions of Siam, while at other times
Siam was more powerful and expanded north into Lanna or east into Vientiane. Also the neighbouring
kings sometimes intermarried for diplomatic reasons. However the ethnic background of the people did
not change when parts of Siam were ruled by Lane Xang or vice-versa. The facial characteristics,
diet, traditions, traditional dress etc are all distinctively different between Siam and Lao, and
the Siamese language is much closer to Mon-Khmer than to Lao. The Siamese and Khmer have a certain
very common blood group which is very rare in most of Laos except in the far south in the region
bordering Cambodia where the Cham kingdom thrived from the third to the tenth centuries AD. (The
Chams were another Indic culture like the Mons/Khmers/Siamese).

>
>Both Lao and Thai people are from the same "Tai"... I'm still
>perplex from where come the words "Lao Yai" and "Tai Yai"?
>

The word "Thai Yai" is a Thai misnomer. The original name that the Shan people used to
describe themselves was "tai meng luang Ailao shan" meaning "people from the great city of the Ailao
mountains". Shan comes from the Chinese word for mountain. The Burmese abbreviated this long term to
simply Shan, just taking the last word, since they did not know what it meant. Similarly the Siamese
abbreviated it to Tai Luang or Tai Yai, which is also incorrect as Luang refers to the city not the
people. Yai is the Siamese word with a similar meaning to the Lao word luang.

dok_champa_laii_dok_hak

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Jun 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/21/97

to

Bonjour Mr Bernard et Mr Chaosinh,
Premierement, il faut saluter Chaosinh de ses efforts a propos des affaires sans
solution progressive avec le mal-nourrissant SIAMOIS. Ils ont toujours les meme
Siamois que ceux de la derniere siecle.
Dans mon avis! pour Mr Chaosinh, il ne faut pas faire une petition de principe
en toutes sortes: pour faire la Paix, engagement pour la negociation
etc...parceque actuellement leur economique est vraiment puissante, entente dire
qu'il est facilement pour eux de faire la profitable tant que le Laos est aussi
faible come aujourd'hui.
Example! la derniere de votre poste au SCL en demandant Nai Thanit se mettre le
Xerox copie du tel These a son Home-page. Le resultat est tres mal content pour
nous qui vous heureusement respectons.
Bienvenue au SCL Mr.Bernard,
Sincerement
Dok Champa laii Dok hak
-------------------------------------------------------------------

In article <5ogh3l$8...@chile.earthlink.net>, BERNARD says...

Campaign for Freedom and Democracy in Laos

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Jun 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/22/97

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On Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:22:19 -0600, xieng...@usa.net wrote:

>Sabaidee!
>
>Just would like to thank for your kind contribution! And I
>also suggest you to reduce your typing format because your
>paragraphs are very long and don't fit with normal PC screen!
>I would be grateful if you could type in more shorter format
>for next time! (You may have a very large PC screen!)
>
>However, I appreciated your useful information... let's see
>what other people have and then make conclusion...
>

>How about our dear respectful Chaosin please?
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>Xieng Mieng.

No, I just have a normal 640x480 screen. You can set the size of the font and the number of
characters per line in Netscape or other browsers, and/or line wrap. In the old days of the 1970's
it was common to have displays with 80 characters per line, but with any VGA display of better what
have long been standard there is no need to use 80 characters per line. If you have trouble
formatting text on your screen tell me what newsreader you use, and if I know it I'll tell you how
to resize the text.

Chaosinh Saysanom

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Jun 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/23/97

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Sabaydi, Bonjour Dok Campa lai Dok Hak, Bernard et compatriotes,

Au sujet de ce que j'ai demande' a Dr. Thanaitha a partager son livre
sur la These a' l'universite de Thammasat "la Politique
dans le statut de Soura-Nary" par la jeune fille Say-Phim Keo-Praseuth,
c'est pour lui optenir la confirmation de sa reponse negative, et de
son attitute negatif. Je vais lui formuler encore une fois de sa generosite'
et je sais bien que j'aurai encore une fois sa reponse negative, et
ce la ouvrira une piste pour moi a converser le Dhamma. Je sais bien
qu'il n'aura pas le courage de faire Xerox ou graphier ce livre sur
son Web, comme ce livre est interdit a circuler dans le Siam (Thailande),
et s'il a le courage de le faire, c'est nous qui auront l'avantage, comme
le dit dans ce livre c'est la fabrication des fascites. Peut-etre vers
la fin de cette semaine je ferais un autre artice, la suite de ce que
j'ai dit, et je recevrai encore une fois son attitude negatif. Tant qu'il
se montre negatif, nous gagnerons d'avantage psychologique et ouvrir au
monde le charactere typique des formation fascites Siamoise. Jusqu'au
point qu'il decouvre son charactere et son action, il sera encoeure'
qu'il etait trop tard a lui corriger qu'il a mit ses pieds sur le banane.

Il a lu ce livre, mais il n'a pas compri l'intention de cette
belle ecrivain, seulement quant j'ai lui fais sortir l'affaire de
massacre des Lao de Khorat au cole de Sarabury, lui eclairci que
ce these a pour but, un seul but a devoiler le charactre fascist Siamois.
Il reconnait et comme sorti de sa prope main sur l'entenne ce mot
"l'anti Royalist" et je crois de puis ce jour la, il savait mon intention,
et il prepare a faire face sur le pas suivant. Je vous prie a suivre
notre fil, vous ne regretterez pas a decouvrir la mensonge Siamoise.
Et encore vous decouvrerez comment je vais lui reponse sur le sujet
des refugies, la coupe de tete de Chao Anou, l'identite Lao sur ce plateau
etc. C'est avec ma douce voix et ma lenteur que j'exprime lui feront
tenir ses nerves. Tant qu'il y a la neige et la pluie, les russeaux
couleront sans cesse.

Je vous remercie infinimenrt de vos conseils, et aussi encore une fois
merci de ce que vous partager et "Pen-Houang" sur notre beau pays bien aime'.

Cordialement,

CHAOSINH SAYSANOM

-----------------

Benja Chanasit

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Jun 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/24/97

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>The Siamese are basically Mon-Khmer, not Lao, and came from India

>and various regions to the south.By contrast the ancient Lao civilisation

>came south from the Baoshan-Tali-Kunming region where they
>had lived for thousands of years.

Hi,
I don't know much what you all are talking about Laos/Thai origin. But
it's different from what I learnt from my school years and what I believe.
This is what I intended to believe to be true and also to honour the dravidian
or aboriginal native Laem Thong peoples. First off, it was recorded
in my memory that at least about 5,000 years back, there is one race called
'Siamoid' living here around present Isaan area such as Udon Thani and
Ubol ... These peoples are neither black (-->Nigroid) nor Yellow (-->
Mongoliod), nor White but their skin is fair dark and that's the reason
they name it 'Siamoid' stock. Please check your skin colour !
Secondly, the Lawa people is a further development of Siamiod stock
and it was recorded that the first kingdom built by King LawaChakkaraj
(cir. 1200 Buddhist Era) - LaoJok was Lawa, not 'Pure' Laos or Thai
as someone claimed.
Thirdly, the Mon-Lawa is the combination race between aboriginal
(Siamoid) and Tibetian. Lopburi was a very good evidence to show
the success intermariage between these two races. Before she moved
up to the Lamphun to establish the Mon Kingdom by acknowledgement of
King Lawo from the central plains.
Thirdly, Thai Ailao was Siamoid stock who migrated to the present
China, Assum... and after cir. 800 Buddhist Era (Saam Kok Era) they
moved back to their original home and some peoples move further to
Western countries after 1970s.
Lastly, Who was Khom ? It's a combination of Mon-Lawa race and
Nagar race from India (North of Burma).
Hope this helps to identify our race and clear some doubtful puzzle.
Regards,
Benja
Ps. if you think of pure blood, pure race, you're on the wrong side, mate!

Sam

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Jun 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/25/97

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Hi there BJ,

Benja Chanasit wrote:
>
> >So, if there was any such thing as Tai race, what about "Tai Dam"? Does
> >this mean "Khon Dam" or else? Furthermore, king "Sam Sean Thai" of the
> >Lane Xang was really a king of "300,000 family or khon or people"? Yes,
> >I understand that the lao is currently using the word "Thai" to describe
> >people from certain regions or areas and it really does not mean
> >describing the "race".
> Thai Dam (Black Thai) is well known as Thai S_ong (wm3-j' ;
> 年-搂趣; 猥瑙) of which they can be found in central Thailand - Rajburi,
> Phetburi, Nakhon Pathom and of course Suphanburi etc. The females
> would love to keep very long hairs and tie them together with their combs
> as for one of their remarkable symbol. Yes, these gentle and generous
> peoples are very skillful in fishings, play Khaen (eat both sticky rice and
> normal rice) and like to ware the Lai-Phaa-Thung-Dam.
> If you want to learn more about them, please go to U-Thong meseum,
> Suphanburi and you will see the S_ong's Kwains (carts) and others historic
> objects concerning about Thai/Laos.

Are the Tai Dam who live in Thailand the same group with the one
migrated from north vietname? If so, there are plenty of them here in
Iowa whom I am quite familiar with.

> The King Saam Saen Thai got the name from the census that shows
> the 300,000 Laotian males being ready to be recruited in mighty army. Don't be
> confusing this good king with Saam_Sen district in bkk of which it
> means the three falcons. However, the word Thai or Tai (with or w/o
> wannayuk Mai To) means 'free from slave' as they used to be Dtaasa,
> Dhassii and barbarian in the past (repeat in the PAST) as they had
> jointed the same root, same family with Khaa, Khoi, moi, ph_nong etc.
> These peoples drink the Nom (milk) from the same mother. I think Khaa
> was the Ai brother.... Anyway, they were invaded by Aariya/nordic
> peoples from the north (altai ?) but their civilization has been established
> long times before the age of barbarian invasion. Baan Chiang pottery
> is one of slant sample of these Siamoise Dravidian civilization. In my
> opinion, one who speak different dialects (Phasa Farang), go abroad,
> eat MaC Burg, use computer, look down others, and regard themselves
> as more civilised mankind, is not much different from my Dravidian peoples.
> Moreover, agriculture peoples are not idiot and they have a good heart which
> is a main quality of human beings.
>
> Best wishes,
> >Sam
> Benja

Don't you worry about my perception with respect to human, be it the Lao
or Thai. Nevertheless, the Lao has never been able to say anything to
the Thai for close to 200 years. It's like the Thai's foot stuck in our
mouth. But now, it's time to speak up and be counted. Therefore, in
order to carry out my ancestors' wishes, I must say something. Whether
it's good or bad it all depends on how you (meaning the Thai people)
take it.

Best wishes,
Sam

Benja Chanasit

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Jun 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/28/97

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>please go to your local library and read up on the origins of the Tai and
>the Mon-Khmer, and the "LaemThong" and stop me from laughing about your
>imagined races such as "Siamoid". You guys are killing me.
I did as you suggested and could not find the keyword 'Siamoid' in any
English history books. I don't know how this ignorance is going to kill you
from laughing . Any way, I did some search on the net and found four articles
mentioning about this stock and your article is one of them.

>The truely indigenous forest people are Austro-Asiatic and are genetically
>related to the Asli Orang in Malaysia as well as the indigenous people of
>Papua New Guinea as well as the aborigines of Australia. The majority of
Siamoid is one of Austro-Asiatic and not related to the aborigines
in Australia by bone and facial structure. The DNA results show that
the oborigines in Sri Lanka (not Tamil and not Singhalee) is the same
blood to the oboriginal peoples in Australia while Siamoid is different
from these peoples. Maybe they are related to Sakai people in the
south ! But they are absolutely different from the aboriginal peoples
in Australia. I can witness this by my eyes.
>people now living in Southeast Asia are all closely related genetically
>irregardless of language and culture. Some groups are obviously more
>closely related to Tibetan peoples: you see Karen with high cheek bones
>but very few ethnic Thais with such physical features. Fact is most
>people are very closely related at the macro level. So you then separate
>them out not by phyical stock but by culture and then you must use such
>designations as language or dress or even architecture.
>
I'm talking about the 'Siamoid' stock of which the name was given by
Bharata about 2,000 + years ago. Not to mention your belief over 20,000
years. One who believed these peoples were migrating from the north
is not different from your extreme side from the south.
>The Mon-Khmer language group is related to the Dravidian group of South
>Asia but the Tai languages seem to be indigenous to Southeast Asia. The
These peoples are not from Bharata and not related to your theory over
20,000 years +. I agreed with you that they were native Dravidian people but they
lived here without a name given for long time. These peoples have their own
culture and adopted written language from Bharata scholars while maintaining
their own spoken language. Siamoid should be a good name for them.
Benja

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On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:28:09 -0700, Brian Dodds <do...@u.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Hi there BJ,
>
>I hope you would not mind if I were to make a comment or two here.
>
>Benja Chanasit wrote:
>>

>> >>OLD LAO LANGUAGE "DHARM": MIX OF PALI + SANSRAKIT
>> >
>> >NO! The Lao language is far older than Sanskrit and Pali. The Lao language came from the birthplace
>> >of the Lao people in the Baoshan, Tali, Tiensu region thousands of years ago - probably 5000 years
>> >ago or more.

>> You're correct here. The laotian 'spoken' language would be older
>> than Sanskrit and Pali 'scripts'. The civilization in my opinion should be
>> counted from the revolution of written literature.
>
>So, according to your proposition here is that civilization starts with
>revolutionalized written literature. What about Vietnam or Hmong or any
>other ethnics who have used the Roman characters for their writing? Are
>these people civilized? If they are, their civilization has probably
>started not too long ago (maybe 50 years or so?).

>To me, civilization is counted at the time when human beings were enable
>to invent tools and use them for their daily survival.
>

>> >It was later given to the Lao king as a gift by the Khmer
>> >king. At that time the capital of the Lao kingdom of Lane Xang was in the north, and several times
>> >the capital moved between Xieng Mai, Xieng Hai, and later Xieng Thong Xieng Dong (renamed Luang
>> >Prabang) and eventually Vientiane. Later it was stolen by the Siamese along with the Prabang when
>> >they looted Vientiane.
>

>Is Xiang Hai the same as Xiang Rai?

Yes. The real name is Xieng Hai, which was founded by the Lao king Meng Hai, who was descended from
the great Lao king Bulom. However the Bangkok Chinese read the character used to write the "h" in
Hai as an "r", and the "x" as "ch", and so they call it Chiang Rai. The people who live in Xieng Hai
however are Lao, and speak Lao, and eat sticky rice like all Lao, and they call it Xieng Hai.

>
>> Can you tell me about the names and chronicles of the King you

>> claimed above ? I knew that the Somdej Chao PreahYaa Mahaa Kasatsuek

>> has "INVITED" PreahKaew to stay in Dhonburi and bkk. Before that I might
>> mostly be deaf and blind ! thanks

>> Hahk-Paeng
>> Benja

>
>BJ, was this "Somdej Chao PreahYaa Mahaa Kasatsuek" a Siamese king? If

>so, whom his invitation was addressed to? Can you please be more
>specific about the story? From what I've learned back in six grade, it
>was like the Siamese came in and looted Viantiane and took it. That is,
>it was stolen not rented nor invited as you have proposed.
>

>Best wishes,
>Sam

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Benja, I'm afraid you have got yourself very, very confused again:

On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:30:14 GMT, bch...@gil.com.au (Benja Chanasit) wrote:

>>The Siamese are basically Mon-Khmer, not Lao, and came from India

>>and various regions to the south.By contrast the ancient Lao civilisation

>>came south from the Baoshan-Tali-Kunming region where they
>>had lived for thousands of years.

>Hi,
> I don't know much what you all are talking about Laos/Thai origin. But
>it's different from what I learnt from my school years and what I believe.
>This is what I intended to believe to be true and also to honour the dravidian
>or aboriginal native Laem Thong peoples. First off, it was recorded
>in my memory that at least about 5,000 years back, there is one race called
>'Siamoid' living here around present Isaan area such as Udon Thani and

Yes, I can confirm this, but they were called Syam not Siamoid. There are numerous references to
these people, whose descendents still call themselves Syam. See for example books by Toye or
Grollier.

>Ubol ... These peoples are neither black (-->Nigroid) nor Yellow (-->
>Mongoliod), nor White but their skin is fair dark and that's the reason
>they name it 'Siamoid' stock. Please check your skin colour !
> Secondly, the Lawa people is a further development of Siamiod stock
>and it was recorded that the first kingdom built by King LawaChakkaraj
>(cir. 1200 Buddhist Era) - LaoJok was Lawa, not 'Pure' Laos or Thai
>as someone claimed.

Lawa has nothing to do with Lao - they are Khmer, and still live on the Boloven Plateau today. The
Syam, Lawa, Lavern, and Khmu are all virtually identical to the Khmer. The Lawa, Lavern and Khmu
also speak a language that is virtually identical to Cambodian and mutually intelligible with
Cambodian. All of these groups are dravidian groups that are closely related to the indians and have
certain blood groups that are common in India and very rare in northern Laos.

The Lao by contrast have very white skins and came south from the Tali-Baoshan region. They have
totally different facial features, different language, customs, diet etc. At that time the whole of
the region now occupied by the Lao race was occupied by the Khmu and similar dravidian races. As
they moved southward into what is now Laos, northern Vietnam, north and northeast Thailand they
forced the Khmu into the remoter mountain regions, and as the Lao took over what is now Laos the
Khmu became restricted largely to the higher mountain regions of the north, the Annamite mountains,
and of the Boloven Plateau in the south. Even at the time of the French, the Khmu had their own
tribal leaders who fiercely resisted the French and were not subdued until long after the Lao.

Before the Lao came, the Khmu had a city at what is now Luang Prabang, called Swa. When Khun Bulom
conquored Swa he built his own city on the same spot and named it Xieng Thong Xieng Dong. When Fa
Ngum returned from the Khmer capital in 1353 bearing the gift of the sacred Prabang, he renamed
Xieng Thong Xieng Dong as Luang Prabang in honour of the Prabang.

> Thirdly, the Mon-Lawa is the combination race between aboriginal
>(Siamoid) and Tibetian. Lopburi was a very good evidence to show
>the success intermariage between these two races. Before she moved
>up to the Lamphun to establish the Mon Kingdom by acknowledgement of
>King Lawo from the central plains.
> Thirdly, Thai Ailao was Siamoid stock who migrated to the present
>China, Assum... and after cir. 800 Buddhist Era (Saam Kok Era) they

This is absolute rubbish!!! There are ancient Chinese records that very clearly show that the Lao
civilisation developed in the Tali-Baoshan region long before 300 BC and had almost certainly been
there for thousands of years. They are quite unrelated to the Dravidian ethnic groups.

>moved back to their original home and some peoples move further to
>Western countries after 1970s.
> Lastly, Who was Khom ? It's a combination of Mon-Lawa race and
>Nagar race from India (North of Burma).

Again this is an Indic group. The earliest known Indic state in the region was what the Chinese
called Funan, which emerged about 100 AD. Then there were the Chams of Champa, the Chen La, Mon,
Khmer, etc. All were Indic cultures and Indic races.

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On Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:49:41 -0700, Brian Dodds <do...@u.arizona.edu> wrote:

>Hi there friend,
>
>I must admit that I've learned a lot here. However, please allow me to
>ask you a couple of questions.
>
>
>
>> I'm afraid none of these are correct. The term "Lao" is a very ancient one which can be traced back
>> well over 2000 years. The cradle of the great Lao civilisation was the region of southern China
>> around Baoshan, Tali, and Tiensu where they called themselves the Ailao. There is also a range of
>> mountains in this area called the Ailao mountains, and it is not clear whether the people were named
>> after the mountains or vice-versa; however it seems most likely that the name of the people came
>> first and that other groups (particularly the Han Chinese) called the mountain range after them
>> since that was where they lived at the time. Ailao could also have been the name of an early king.
>> The term "Shan" from northern Burma is also named after Ailao, but is a corrupted abbreviation - the
>> Lao in northern Burma originally called themselves the "thai meng luang Ailao shan" = "the people
>> from the great city of the Ailao mountains" (shan comes directly from the Chinese meaning mountain)
>> - the Burmans of lowland Burma could not understand Lao of course so the just took the last word
>> "Shan". The word "thai" just means "people from" of course, and was never used to mean an ethnic
>> group until 1939 when the Siamese saw the Japanese planning to take over Indochina and wanted a
>> hegemonistic excuse for absorbing Laos into Siam by falsely claiming that they were all the "Thai"
>> race. There was never any such thing as the Thai race or Tai race - the term was based on a
>> misunderstanding by early French visitors.
>

>So, if there was any such thing as Tai race, what about "Tai Dam"? Does
>this mean "Khon Dam" or else? Furthermore, king "Sam Sean Thai" of the
>Lane Xang was really a king of "300,000 family or khon or people"? Yes,
>I understand that the lao is currently using the word "Thai" to describe
>people from certain regions or areas and it really does not mean
>describing the "race".
>

>Best wishes,
>Sam

Tai Dam means People from the River Dam, Tai Daeng means People from the River Daeng, Tai Khao means
People from the River Khao, Tai Sam means People from the River Sam.

King Sam Saen Tai means a King of 300,000 households; according to ancient tradition, each household
was required to be able to send one soldier when required in times of need, therefore it was also a
measure of military strength meaning king of 300,000 soldiers.

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On Sat, 14 Jun 1997 05:11:05 GMT, bch...@gil.com.au (Benja Chanasit) wrote:

>>>OLD LAO LANGUAGE "DHARM": MIX OF PALI + SANSRAKIT
>>
>>NO! The Lao language is far older than Sanskrit and Pali. The Lao language came from the birthplace
>>of the Lao people in the Baoshan, Tali, Tiensu region thousands of years ago - probably 5000 years
>>ago or more.
>You're correct here. The laotian 'spoken' language would be older
>than Sanskrit and Pali 'scripts'. The civilization in my opinion should be
>counted from the revolution of written literature.

This is preposterous !!!!! The Lao had a very highly developed civilisation before the Sanskrit and
pali scripts even existed.

>
>>The Pali and Sanskrit languages came far later when Buddhism arrived from India -
>>mainly with King Fa Ngum in 1353 when he brought Theravada Buddhism from Cambodia along with the
>>sacred Prabang and the Khmer king's daughter as his wife. However the Lao SCRIPT is derived from
>>Sanskrit and Pali.
>I don't agree with you. I thought that this S-E asia land had imported the
>religion from India longer than 1353. The influence of Buddhism had been
>impact on this land probably since the King Asoka (cir. 243 B.C) or King
>Kanittha (cir. 100 AD).

You are very confused again. King Asoka and King Kanittha were Indic Kings, not Lao Kings. Therefore
their religion is scarcely relevant to the religion of the Lao at that time! Certainly the Indic
tribes covered the whole of the region at that time, while the Lao were further north, but when the
Lao came south and conquored extensive parts of the region they drove the Khmu and Syams and other
Indic tibes further south or higher into mountain ranges. The two groups did not assimilate.

>>
>>You should the religious language or "dharm" (largely from Sanskrit and Pali) from the ancient Lao
>>language which is much older. The word saen = 100,000 is an ancient Lao word that came South from
>>Baoshan, while the word saenya = troops is a Sanskrit word that much later came North via Cambodia
>>from India and East via northern Burma.
>Gee...! Saenya is neither Pali nor Sanskrit word. In fact, it's typical of
>combinaion between Shan's word (Sae^n) and Indian word (Aa-nu-bha-wa

This is rubbish. Saenya is derived directly from the Sanskrit word Sena meaning army, and this fact
is well documented. See for example Marc Reinhardt's very comprehensive dictionary.

>or Aa-kara /Aa-korn). By the power of the Yor-Ying at the final spelling
>of word 'Sae^n', it makes the new following letter to be pronounced as the

Neither word saen = 100,000 (มฆญ) nor saenya = army (มฆญจพ) are spellt with a Yor-Ying, so your
argument is a non-starter.

>same. It's something like when you say the word 'this is' ----> 'this sis' !
>It is used very often as a single word, and later on the ^n (yor ying) has
>been replaced by n (nor nahk: bird) with the same meaning (100,000).
>
>>>etc. That's one reason why these questions are continously
>>>asked and discussed... endless!
>>Wat Phou was originally part of the Cham civilisation which predated the Khmer civilisation at
>>Angkor Wat. The Cham kingdom was originally founded on the Vietnamese coast north of Camranh Bay,
>>and later spread further south to the Mekong delta and west to the Mekong valley. The later parts of
>>Wat Phou were part of the pre-Angkhor Khmer civilisation.
>This sis to prove that this land was influenced by Indian culture long time
>before King FaNgum introduced and declared Theravadin Buddhism as
>Laotian national religion.

Absolutely. But that was the Indic tribes, not the Lao civilisation with which you are confusing it.
The Lao civilisation was not Indic.

>>
>>Pha Keo Marakot was originally made in India (I forget when offhand, but over 2000 years ago) where
>>it remained for most of its life. Later it was sent on a journey to Ceylon, but the ship got lost in
>>a storm and eventually landed in Cambodia.
>Please check your data on hand again. It could be that The Ceylon King
>sent Preah Kaew for Nakhon SiDhammaraj King as a friendly gift.

No.

>
>>It was later given to the Lao king as a gift by the Khmer
>>king. At that time the capital of the Lao kingdom of Lane Xang was in the north, and several times
>>the capital moved between Xieng Mai, Xieng Hai, and later Xieng Thong Xieng Dong (renamed Luang
>>Prabang) and eventually Vientiane. Later it was stolen by the Siamese along with the Prabang when
>>they looted Vientiane.

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On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:59:41 GMT, bch...@gil.com.au (Benja Chanasit) wrote:

> The King Saam Saen Thai got the name from the census that shows
>the 300,000 Laotian males being ready to be recruited in mighty army. Don't be
>confusing this good king with Saam_Sen district in bkk of which it
>means the three falcons. However, the word Thai or Tai (with or w/o
>wannayuk Mai To) means 'free from slave' as they used to be Dtaasa,

This claim about Thai meaning "free" was a complete fiction and propaganda introduced by Field
Marshal Phibul Songkhram, as a part of his expansionist "pan-Thai-ism" ambitions, intended to make
people feel good about the identity he was trying to pass off on the Siamese and on the Lao of the
North and North-East of Thailand. It was all nothing but a complete lie.

>Dhassii and barbarian in the past (repeat in the PAST) as they had
>jointed the same root, same family with Khaa, Khoi, moi, ph_nong etc.
>These peoples drink the Nom (milk) from the same mother. I think Khaa
>was the Ai brother.... Anyway, they were invaded by Aariya/nordic

Khaa was ethnically completely unrelated to Lao, and has different blood groups. Syam however is
almost the same as Khaa.

>peoples from the north (altai ?) but their civilization has been established

The alleged connection with the Altai was a complete fiction, nothing more than wishful thinking
that was based entirely on ignorance.

>long times before the age of barbarian invasion. Baan Chiang pottery
>is one of slant sample of these Siamoise Dravidian civilization.

Ceramics were introduced into the region by immigrant Chinese, not by the Dravidian civilisations.

Seafame

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Jun 29, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/29/97

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>Tai Dam means People from the River Dam, Tai Daeng means People from the
>River Daeng, Tai Khao means
>People from the River Khao, Tai Sam means People from the River Sam.

>King Sam Saen Tai means a King of 300,000 households; according to
ancient >tradition, each household
>was required to be able to send one soldier when required in times of
need, >therefore it was also a
>measure of military strength meaning king of 300,000 soldiers.

I would like to add to what you said Free Lao. I am Tai Sam, Because we
came from SamNeau, and live by Nam Sam. We always call ourself Tai Sam. My
mother is Tai Deng. When she speaks Lao she will not be able to say an
"Lor'' like the people from Pakse. For example when she says Ling (Monkey)
she will say Ding, but her accent is not like Lao Southerner. Also, She
cannot says "Bor". for example, Bay Mai (Leaves), she will say Vay Mai. In
another words, a Bor becomes Vor, and a Lor becomes Dor. and Yes, my mom
is Tai Deng. She told us all along. Her village is in the Northern of
Houaphanh Province call Meuang Vene.

Benja Chanasit

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Jun 30, 1997, 3:00:00 AM6/30/97

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>>>NO! The Lao language is far older than Sanskrit and Pali. The Lao language came from the birthplace
>>>of the Lao people in the Baoshan, Tali, Tiensu region thousands of years ago - probably 5000 years
>>>ago or more.
>>You're correct here. The laotian 'spoken' language would be older
>>than Sanskrit and Pali 'scripts'. The civilization in my opinion should be
>>counted from the revolution of written literature.

:JB>This is preposterous !!!!!

>The Lao had a very highly developed civilisation before the Sanskrit and
>pali scripts even existed.

Can you list some please ? Say, Khaa had Hai-Hin-Jiang and 'Siam cook'
or siamoid was inscripted at Angor Wat of which I was pround of as
a small part of my ancesstor's labour to make one of secret and beautiful
palace in the world.

>>I don't agree with you. I thought that this S-E asia land had imported the
>>religion from India longer than 1353. The influence of Buddhism had been
>>impact on this land probably since the King Asoka (cir. 243 B.C) or King
>>Kanittha (cir. 100 AD).
>
>You are very confused again. King Asoka and King Kanittha were Indic Kings, not Lao Kings. Therefore
>their religion is scarcely relevant to the religion of the Lao at that time! Certainly the Indic
>tribes covered the whole of the region at that time, while the Lao were further north, but when the
>Lao came south and conquored extensive parts of the region they drove the Khmu and Syams and other
>Indic tibes further south or higher into mountain ranges. The two groups did not assimilate.

Excuse me ! I think the great king, Asoka and Kanittha were the kings of
CumbuuDhaviipa which covered the large range of Sindhu, Krisna,
Ganga rivers etc. including the south Kalingarat, Nagarland and present
Ceylon. The Buddhism went to China about 200 AD carried out by the
south and the north missionary of CumbuuDhaviipa. How come they
go across borders between the Buddha's land and the main land of China ?

>>Gee...! Saenya is neither Pali nor Sanskrit word. In fact, it's typical of
>>combinaion between Shan's word (Sae^n) and Indian word (Aa-nu-bha-wa

:JB>This is rubbish.

>Saenya is derived directly from the Sanskrit word Sena meaning army,
>and this fact is well documented. See for example Marc Reinhardt's very
>comprehensive dictionary.

Saenya is neither Sanskrit nor Pali word but Sena is pure 100% Pali word and
I would argue again and again that Saen is not 1000% laotian word, if it
would be, then it will mean a number of '1,000' (ONE THOUSAND).

>Neither word saen = 100,000 (มฆญ) nor saenya = army (มฆญจพ) are spellt with
>a Yor-Ying, so your argument is a non-starter.

How does the 'y' (or n^) derive from then ? I never heard the combination
in such ways such as Laoyaanubhaava. The correct rule of combination is
sara 'a' + 'a' = 'aa', and sara 'a' + 'aa' = 'aa etc.

>>>Wat Phou were part of the pre-Angkhor Khmer civilisation.

>Absolutely. But that was the Indic tribes, not the Lao
>civilisation with which you are confusing it.
>The Lao civilisation was not Indic.

It saddens me to hear that Wat Phou is not recognised as Siamoid
civilization by you. In fact, these Naga peoples were very barbarian
and used to hunt the other tribe's human's beings head for the gift as
the part of their traditon before getting married. The CumbhuuThaviipa
had chaged their ways of life and they went to that secreat land to learn
its culture near the feets of those peoples and after spending many years
of scholarship they brought a real and good culture back to their homeland.

>>>It was later given to the Lao king as a gift by the Khmer
>>>king.

>>Can you tell me about the names and chronicles of the King you
>>claimed above ?

Hahk-Paeng
Benja

Benja Chanasit

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Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97

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>JB>>>>NO! The Lao language is far older than Sanskrit and Pali.
>BJ>>>The laotian 'spoken' language would be older

>>>>than Sanskrit and Pali 'scripts'.

>>:JB>This is preposterous !!!!!

>>>The Lao had a very highly developed civilisation before the Sanskrit and
>>>pali scripts even existed.

>>Can you list some please ?

>What on earth does this mean? Civilisation is a way of life, not a list of artifacts
Invention of a new thing, and maintainance of the old culture etc.could
be included in this term of civilization. Is there any chance to prove that
your highly Laotion civilised society has been set up before the advent of
Pali and Sanskrit scripts ? Can Playing-Khaen and Eating-rice been traced
back over 2,500 years ?

>>>Indic tribes further south or higher into mountain ranges. The two groups did not assimilate.

>>Excuse me ! I think the great king, Asoka and Kanittha were the kings of
>>CumbuuDhaviipa which covered the large range of Sindhu, Krisna,
>>Ganga rivers etc. including the south Kalingarat, Nagarland and present
>>Ceylon. The Buddhism went to China about 200 AD carried out by the
>>south and the north missionary of CumbuuDhaviipa. How come they
>>go across borders between the Buddha's land and the main land of China ?
>

>What on EARTH are you talking about? I'm talking about the Lao. Asoka, Kanittha, CumbuuDhaviipa,
>Sindhu, Krisna, Ganga, Kalingarat, Nagarland, Ceylon, China have nothing whatsoever to do with the
>Lao.
I'm talking about the Lao origin and have many questions to post such as :
How long did the culture - Tai language script etc. take time to travel from
one place to another place? Can you measure it by a number of x years ?

>
>>Saenya is neither Sanskrit nor Pali word but Sena is pure 100% Pali word and

>I'm afraid your claims are completely contrary to all the evidence.
>
All your evidence might represent only one angle of the truth while my words
might represent another corner. It's up to the audience to decide it.

>>How does the 'y' (or n^) derive from then ? I never heard the combination

>There is no Yor-Ying in Lao.
Are you going to accept my words if I can give you a below reference ?
!!!!! Old Laotian Tau Dham Akson (please read it with Lao Dham font)!!!!!!
¡ ¢ ¤ ¦ §
¨ © ª ¬
¯ ° ± ² ³
µ ¶ · ¸ ¹
»,º ¼,½ ¾ ¿ À Á
Â Ã Å Ç Ê Ë Ì Í Î
Can you see 'yor ying' in your own OLD Laos alphabet ? I think you need
some books about how to read your own language. BTW, there are about
only 100,000 phuuk (one chapter of bai-laan) from Luang Prabang and
ViangChan to be studied. Have you ever seen these historic leafs being
kept in new format yet ? If not, it's time to go back home to see it by
yourself.
>The n in Sena is not a normal n but an n with a bar over the top; this
>has different pronunciations in different countries. If you cannot understand this I suggest you
>read a few books on philology instead of flaunting your ignorance.
I think the correct way of writing the word 'Sanskrit ' is ÊíÊ¡ÄÉ (with Thai font).
'N' in Sanskrit is equal to 'Ang' in Pali, so if I say 'Senam (àÊ¹Ñ§) in Pali,
then this word will be pronouced as 'Senan (àÊ¹Ñ¹)' in Sanskrit. There is no way
to represent the exact word 'Sanskrit' without drop-circle on the top of
akson but the users have two choices either to follow Pali or Sanskrit
pronounciation. Can you suggest some books for me to read these
grammar staffs, sir ?

>>in such ways such as Laoyaanubhaava. The correct rule of combination is
>>sara 'a' + 'a' = 'aa', and sara 'a' + 'aa' = 'aa etc.

>What's this supposed to be - mathematics?
No, it's called 'grammar' which was invented by the great linguist
of the Bharata named 'Paanini' who wrote the grammar of the Sanskrit
language around 700-600 BC. or cir. 2650 years ago. From his invention,
the Khom, Mon, Sinhalee,... and Tai scripts took place and evolved through
many generations but the basement of each akson is still the same, never
loses its ground.

>
>>>The Lao civilisation was not Indic.

>>It saddens me to hear that Wat Phou is not recognised as Siamoid
>

>What are you talking about now? Wat Phou was part of the early civilisations from India that covered
>the southern part of this region before the Lao came south from the Tali-Baoshan area. The Syams
>were part of that Indian heritage. So what on earth are you complaining about?
>
Sorry, I thought it was a aboriginal civilization. Is it possible to claim
that one of Laotian citizen at that time helped to build this temple ?

>As for Wat Phou being specifically Syam - I very much doubt it, although I could not authoritatively
>say that it is not true. Wat Phou is very closely associated with the Chams and the Khmer. Do you
>have any evidence for a connection with the Syam?
You're mistaken about the word 'Syam'. In fact, it's SIAM (àÊÕÂÁ) which is
the same sound of digger tool. These barbarian dravidian peoples are very
specilist in cultivating the rice by digging the canal etc. Cham or Champa
(Lin-Yi ?) is another race of which its root can be traced back to the marine
civilization. One of her tradition was to recognize the role of the females
as the head of state. Only one connection I can think of was : they had lived
side by side sometimes with fightings and sometimes with harmony.

:It (Preah Gaew) was later given to the Lao king as a gift by the Khmer king.

>>Can you tell me about the names and chronicles of the King you
>>claimed above ?

Hahk-Paeng
Benja

Benja Chanasit

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Jul 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/1/97

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On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 21:26:27 GMT, Fre...@cfdl.clara.net*** (Campaign for Freedom and
Democracy in Laos) wrote:

>Benja, I'm afraid you have got yourself very, very confused again:

>>>The Siamese are basically Mon-Khmer, not Lao, and came from India

>>in my memory that at least about 5,000 years back, there is one race called
>>'Siamoid' living here around present Isaan area such as Udon Thani and
>
>Yes, I can confirm this, but they were called Syam not Siamoid. There are numerous references to
>these people, whose descendents still call themselves Syam. See for example books by Toye or
>Grollier.
>

NO, it's called 'Siamoid (เสียมมอยด์)'. FYI, Syam is a typical mistake of whoever
called it. It doesn't matter who is that person. I used to believe whatsoever
being written in Enlish script but that ignorance time has gone by. Yes, I believed
some of them, not all of them. They are just human beings who often made
mistakes like you.
My belief is very strange. Say, I used to believe that the netters who posted
long characters per line, were very smart and cleaver. That time had gone
by too. Syam is mispronounciation of the word 'SIAM' or it's later
development of ignorance mind about 150 years ago until now. The
writing is still the same : 'สยาม' but you have to pronounce it as เสียม

>> Secondly, the Lawa people is a further development of Siamiod stock

>Lawa has nothing to do with Lao - they are Khmer, and still live on the Boloven Plateau today. The
>Syam, Lawa, Lavern, and Khmu are all virtually identical to the Khmer. The Lawa, Lavern and Khmu
>also speak a language that is virtually identical to Cambodian and mutually intelligible with
>Cambodian. All of these groups are dravidian groups that are closely related to the indians and have

>certain blood groups that are common in India and very rare in northern Laos.
>
There are two types of them - Plains Lawa and Mountains Lawa. However,
they are not Khmer or indic groups as you understood. They have high
civilisation more that some nordic groups who have been defeated in
the war.

>The Lao by contrast have very white skins and came south from the Tali-Baoshan region. They have
My skin is 'Dam-Daeng' of which I can remember from my birth
certificate and so I'm siamoid/Laosiod, not Mongoloid.

>> Thirdly, Thai Ailao was Siamoid stock who migrated to the present
>>China, Assum... and after cir. 800 Buddhist Era (Saam Kok Era) they
>This is absolute rubbish!!! There are ancient Chinese records that very clearly show that the Lao
>civilisation developed in the Tali-Baoshan region long before 300 BC and had almost certainly been
>there for thousands of years. They are quite unrelated to the Dravidian ethnic groups.
>

I don't agree with you. In my opinion, Laos had lived on this present land
before moving to the North by some and later on, they have decided to come
back because they knew its geograpy very well and they love their home land
very much. They live there over 5,000 years.

>> Lastly, Who was Khom ? It's a combination of Mon-Lawa race and
>>Nagar race from India (North of Burma).
>Again this is an Indic group. The earliest known Indic state in the region was what the Chinese
>called Funan, which emerged about 100 AD. Then there were the Chams of Champa, the Chen La, Mon,
>Khmer, etc. All were Indic cultures and Indic races.
>

NO ! Their race is not Indic group but they are very closely-related to that
culture. Their race formula is something : Black + White = Dam Mai Chai
and Khaow Mai Cherng (ดำไม่ใช่ ขาวไม่เชิง)
Regards,
Benja

Amd

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

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On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:59:41 GMT, bch...@gil.com.au (Benja Chanasit) wrote:

Lao origin is part of Thailand.

Campaign for Freedom and Democracy in Laos

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Jul 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/2/97

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On Tue, 01 Jul 1997 07:06:58 GMT, bch...@gil.com.au (Benja Chanasit) wrote:

>>JB>>>>NO! The Lao language is far older than Sanskrit and Pali.
>>BJ>>>The laotian 'spoken' language would be older
>>>>>than Sanskrit and Pali 'scripts'.

>>>>The Lao had a very highly developed civilisation before the Sanskrit and
>>>>pali scripts even existed.
>>>Can you list some please ?
>>What on earth does this mean? Civilisation is a way of life, not a list of artifacts
>Invention of a new thing, and maintainance of the old culture etc.could
>be included in this term of civilization. Is there any chance to prove that
>your highly Laotion civilised society has been set up before the advent of
>Pali and Sanskrit scripts ? Can Playing-Khaen and Eating-rice been traced
>back over 2,500 years ?

There are very extensive Chinese records of the ancient Lao civilisation. Great civilisations do not
appear overnight.

>
>>>>Indic tribes further south or higher into mountain ranges. The two groups did not assimilate.
>>>Excuse me ! I think the great king, Asoka and Kanittha were the kings of
>>>CumbuuDhaviipa which covered the large range of Sindhu, Krisna,
>>>Ganga rivers etc. including the south Kalingarat, Nagarland and present
>>>Ceylon. The Buddhism went to China about 200 AD carried out by the
>>>south and the north missionary of CumbuuDhaviipa. How come they
>>>go across borders between the Buddha's land and the main land of China ?
>>
>>What on EARTH are you talking about? I'm talking about the Lao. Asoka, Kanittha, CumbuuDhaviipa,
>>Sindhu, Krisna, Ganga, Kalingarat, Nagarland, Ceylon, China have nothing whatsoever to do with the
>>Lao.

Benja, sometimes you are infinitely exasperating!

>I'm talking about the Lao origin and have many questions to post such as :

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So why do you keep bringing up references to the Indic cultures? Lao is
not Indic at all.

>How long did the culture - Tai language script etc. take time to travel from

There is no such thing as a Tai language script.

>one place to another place? Can you measure it by a number of x years ?
>>
>>>Saenya is neither Sanskrit nor Pali word but Sena is pure 100% Pali word and
>>I'm afraid your claims are completely contrary to all the evidence.
>>
>All your evidence might represent only one angle of the truth while my words
>might represent another corner. It's up to the audience to decide it.

No matter what angle of the truth you take you cannot remove a word from somebody else's language

>
>>>How does the 'y' (or n^) derive from then ? I never heard the combination
>>There is no Yor-Ying in Lao.
>Are you going to accept my words if I can give you a below reference ?
>!!!!! Old Laotian Tau Dham Akson (please read it with Lao Dham font)!!!!!!

I don't have Lao Dham font. In any case Saenya is not spelt with a yor ying.

> ¡ ¢ ¤ ¦ §
> ¨ © ª ¬
> ¯ ° ± ² ³
> µ ¶ · ¸ ¹
> »,º ¼,½ ¾ ¿ À Á
> Â Ã Å Ç Ê Ë Ì Í Î
> Can you see 'yor ying' in your own OLD Laos alphabet ? I think you need
>some books about how to read your own language. BTW, there are about
>only 100,000 phuuk (one chapter of bai-laan) from Luang Prabang and
>ViangChan to be studied. Have you ever seen these historic leafs being
>kept in new format yet ? If not, it's time to go back home to see it by
>yourself.
>>The n in Sena is not a normal n but an n with a bar over the top; this
>>has different pronunciations in different countries. If you cannot understand this I suggest you
>>read a few books on philology instead of flaunting your ignorance.
>I think the correct way of writing the word 'Sanskrit ' is ÊíÊ¡ÄÉ (with Thai font).
>'N' in Sanskrit is equal to 'Ang' in Pali, so if I say 'Senam (àÊ¹Ñ§) in Pali,
>then this word will be pronouced as 'Senan (àÊ¹Ñ¹)' in Sanskrit. There is no way
>to represent the exact word 'Sanskrit' without drop-circle on the top of
>akson but the users have two choices either to follow Pali or Sanskrit
>pronounciation. Can you suggest some books for me to read these
>grammar staffs, sir ?

Yes, a small selection is attached (divided in four sections)

>
>>>in such ways such as Laoyaanubhaava. The correct rule of combination is
>>>sara 'a' + 'a' = 'aa', and sara 'a' + 'aa' = 'aa etc.
>>What's this supposed to be - mathematics?
>No, it's called 'grammar' which was invented by the great linguist
>of the Bharata named 'Paanini' who wrote the grammar of the Sanskrit
>language around 700-600 BC. or cir. 2650 years ago. From his invention,
>the Khom, Mon, Sinhalee,... and Tai scripts took place and evolved through
>many generations but the basement of each akson is still the same, never
>loses its ground.

Benja, you recently claimed in this newsgroup that you sometimes write things with the intention of
not being understood. This is clearly an example. It is non-sensical and bears no relation to any
part of the thread.

>>
>>>>The Lao civilisation was not Indic.
>>>It saddens me to hear that Wat Phou is not recognised as Siamoid
>>
>>What are you talking about now? Wat Phou was part of the early civilisations from India that covered
>>the southern part of this region before the Lao came south from the Tali-Baoshan area. The Syams
>>were part of that Indian heritage. So what on earth are you complaining about?
>>
>Sorry, I thought it was a aboriginal civilization.

It was. That is why I say it was Indic. (Of course, if you go sufficiently far back, the Indic
cultures were also immigrant, but then the same could be said of the Australian aboriginals. It is
all relative.)

>Is it possible to claim
>that one of Laotian citizen at that time helped to build this temple ?

I would say almost certainly not. And CERTAINLY not the original structure, which was built long
before the Lao reached this far South.

>
>>As for Wat Phou being specifically Syam - I very much doubt it, although I could not authoritatively
>>say that it is not true. Wat Phou is very closely associated with the Chams and the Khmer. Do you
>>have any evidence for a connection with the Syam?
>You're mistaken about the word 'Syam'. In fact, it's SIAM (àÊÕÂÁ) which is

There is no difference between Syam and Siam. Both are representations of the same or similar sounds
in the roman alphabet. I used the spelling Syam because that was used in numerous old references,
and I am not in a position to say whether or not it has the same roots as Siam; in many respects it
is immaterial.

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Jul 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/6/97

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On Tue, 01 Jul 1997 23:19:40 GMT, bch...@gil.com.au (Benja Chanasit) wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jun 1997 21:26:27 GMT, Fre...@cfdl.clara.net*** (Campaign for Freedom and
>Democracy in Laos) wrote:
>
>>Benja, I'm afraid you have got yourself very, very confused again:

>>>>The Siamese are basically Mon-Khmer, not Lao, and came from India

>>>in my memory that at least about 5,000 years back, there is one race called
>>>'Siamoid' living here around present Isaan area such as Udon Thani and
>>
>>Yes, I can confirm this, but they were called Syam not Siamoid. There are numerous references to
>>these people, whose descendents still call themselves Syam. See for example books by Toye or
>>Grollier.
>>
>NO, it's called 'Siamoid (เสียมมอยด์)'. FYI, Syam is a typical mistake of whoever

Benja, Siamoid is an English word - it is derived from the word Siam with the suffix -oid meaning
that the word represents a general type of the same shape or form. E.g. Mongoloid means people with
the same physical and facial characteristics of the Mongols, but generally including a broader class
than the term Mongol, or in other words it is a racial type rather than a national group. (The
suffix -oid comes from the Greek -oeid๊s, from eidos, shape, form.) Therefore the people are Syam or
Siam, or possibly Siamese/Syamese. You cannot call the race Siamoid since the word Siamoid means a
general racial type with the same physical appearance as Siam.

>called it. It doesn't matter who is that person. I used to believe whatsoever

This is not a mistake - it is a valid variation in transcription. Unlike Thai the English script
does not litterally represent sounds, and so fashions in transcription vary; this is particularly
obvious in Laos where you get a mixture of French-derived transcriptions and American-derived
transcriptions. You can never take transcriptions litterally, as they are always an approximation to
sounds that do not exist in English or which are ambiguous in English. You often cannot say that one
transcription is wrong while another is right - in the case of Siam and Syam they are equivalent,
and are both right. On the other hand if you write it as Saym, then that is clearly wrong.

>being written in Enlish script but that ignorance time has gone by. Yes, I believed
>some of them, not all of them. They are just human beings who often made
>mistakes like you.
> My belief is very strange. Say, I used to believe that the netters who posted
>long characters per line, were very smart and cleaver. That time had gone
>by too. Syam is mispronounciation of the word 'SIAM' or it's later
>development of ignorance mind about 150 years ago until now. The
>writing is still the same : 'สยาม' but you have to pronounce it as เสียม
>
>>> Secondly, the Lawa people is a further development of Siamiod stock
>>Lawa has nothing to do with Lao - they are Khmer, and still live on the Boloven Plateau today. The
>>Syam, Lawa, Lavern, and Khmu are all virtually identical to the Khmer. The Lawa, Lavern and Khmu
>>also speak a language that is virtually identical to Cambodian and mutually intelligible with
>>Cambodian. All of these groups are dravidian groups that are closely related to the indians and have
>>certain blood groups that are common in India and very rare in northern Laos.
>>
>There are two types of them - Plains Lawa and Mountains Lawa. However,
>they are not Khmer or indic groups as you understood. They have high

Then how do you explain the fact that the Lawa speak the same language as the Khmu and have exactly
the same facial characteristics, and almost the same traditions? The fact is that Lawa and Lavern
etc are all in the Khmu ethnic group (Lawa and Lavern are small sub-groups of Khmu) which developed
their own identity after long relative isolation in the mountains of the Boloven. (Boloven is named
after the Lavern - maybe Loven is a better transcription of the sound - and means Mountain of the
Loven/Lavern). I agree that Khmu is not identical to Khmer, but the two have a common origin and are
very closely related, have very close genetic similarity and very close linguistic similarity. You
could call the Khmu the mountain version of the Khmer, but until the Lao came south from Yunnan the
Khmu WERE Khmer and lived in the lowlands where the Lao now live; when the Lao took over their lands
the Khmu were driven up into the mountains.

>civilisation more that some nordic groups who have been defeated in
>the war.
>
>>The Lao by contrast have very white skins and came south from the Tali-Baoshan region. They have
>My skin is 'Dam-Daeng' of which I can remember from my birth
>certificate and so I'm siamoid/Laosiod, not Mongoloid.

No, if you are Dam-Daeng i.e. dark skinned then that means you are Siamoid/Indic

The original Lao had a very pale skin, and are quite different from the various Indic groups such as
the siamoid types who inhabited the region before the Lao. There is indeed a connection between the
Lao and the Mongols, although the nature of this connection is not at all clear. However it is
certain that the Lao were in the Tali-Baoshan region for many thousands of years before they spread
further south. In the South of Laos they were ruled at different times by the
Lao/Siamese/Khmer/Vietnamese (and in practice I think the Vietnamese would in some cases have been
ethnic Khmer from what the French called Cochin-China) so the Lao of southern Laos mixed their stock
with the Indic stock of the Khmer, Siamese, Chams, etc and so are much darker than the original Lao.
It is very noteworthy that there are certain blood groups which are common in southern Laos
(Champassak, Salavan, Attapeu), Cambodia, Siam, and India, but these same blood groups are very rare
in Northern Laos - this is because the Lao are ethnically completely distinct from the Siamese/Khmer
who are of Indic stock (mixed with several other groups such as Malay, Polynesian ...).

>
>>> Thirdly, Thai Ailao was Siamoid stock who migrated to the present
>>>China, Assum... and after cir. 800 Buddhist Era (Saam Kok Era) they
>>This is absolute rubbish!!! There are ancient Chinese records that very clearly show that the Lao
>>civilisation developed in the Tali-Baoshan region long before 300 BC and had almost certainly been
>>there for thousands of years. They are quite unrelated to the Dravidian ethnic groups.
>>
>I don't agree with you. In my opinion, Laos had lived on this present land
>before moving to the North by some and later on, they have decided to come
>back because they knew its geograpy very well and they love their home land
>very much. They live there over 5,000 years.

Well, you can hold this opinion if you like ... but do you actually have any REASON to hold this
view? If you say they were in the south over 5000 years ago why did they move north? How do you
explain this? It is far more likely that they came south from Mongolia between 5000 and 10000 years
ago, and there is some evidence for that (although as I say it is not clear).

unread,

Jul 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/22/97

to

Sabaidee all Lao compatriots,

Alright, guys.....check out Thanitha's references regarding the
Siamese Origin according to the book called, "Thailand: A Short History":

Page 52

These Tai--Who may have had Mon or Khmer origins--historically have
been referred to as SIAMESE, a local variant on the word SYAM of the
Cham, Khmer, and Pagan inscriptions.

That's probably explained why Ai Sam always referred them as the Thai
Dark Lair.

Hak Phaeng,

DaLaoGaoNa2