INSULTED
C Chan
HEY! Soumaly1 you are insulted us whom did not buy it in your bullshit
stuffs. why don't you go home and fight for your people!!!
you do not need to tell the world that you are a hero. A real hero never say
he is but people said he is!!!
BABYFALL
>Subject: INSULTED
>From: "C Chan" <jam...@pacbell.net>
>Date: Thu, Apr 2, 1998 22:05 EST
>Message-id: <6g1jpb$k6j$1...@nnrp4.snfc21.pbi.net>
HAH!!!!!! ANOTHER LAOTI CHEER LEADER HERE. Please keep cheering up. Is this
the way Lao Help Lao (Lao Soi Lua Lao)?????
BF=Your Best Friend.
CHOWIGAN
>From: baby...@aol.com (BABYFALL)
That is the LPDR's way. Lao helping Lao. Who in SCL or anywhere else would
claim that the LPDR are hero. Starting with Back Kaysone, Back Souphanouvong,
Back Souvannaphouma, Back Boun Oum, Back Sananikone (just to make Dtigger
happy) etc...
C Chan (The insulted bullshit head), which part that you don't buy? I might
make an effort to see what I could do to get anything good into your shit head.
Chowigan
Redfoxb51
>HEY! Soumaly1 you are insulted us whom did not buy it in your bullshit
>stuffs. why don't you go home and fight for your people!!!
>you do not need to tell the world that you are a hero. A real hero never say
>he is but people said he is!!!
Hey! BIG Boss:..... Now that you and your comrade got all the natural resources
from the King to offer your friends, kon thai, kon viets and kon 7 why
insulted my buddy Soumaly1, what else you and your comrade need?.
His or Her Excellency, when you used such a word as "bullshit" in the SCL. is
that a sign of stupid. Is that your boss Khamtai tell you? what to say, when
will you learn how to walk by your self.
RedfoxB51
Dinesh Pashmin, PhD, LLD, MD
Redfoxb51 wrote:
> insulted my buddy Soumaly1, what else you and your comrade need?.
> RedfoxB51
OK, "RedfoxB51." Are you sure you're not Soumaly online personality #3?
Give me a break. They don't call me Doctor for nothing!
AKM 74
>Back Souphanouvong,
>Back Souvannaphouma
Hey brothers,
The Sons of Bounkong happened to be my heroes and Mr. Brown!
Please elaborate more on their leadership that you find it disturbing. For I
see it if wasn't for the two brothers.......Laos would suffered the same fate
as our neighbor in the south(Cambodia). Please let not alienate each other,
ok! Where's our mutual understanding and mutual respects?
When will the proverb, "Ai hoo song....nong hoo 1 comes into apply here? C'mon
now....shall we move on?
Hak Phaeng,
Akm-74 <militant lao>
CHOWIGAN
>From: "Dinesh Pashmin, PhD, LLD, MD" <Bus...@Hotmail.com>
>OK, "RedfoxB51." Are you sure you're not Soumaly online personality #3?
>Give me a break. They don't call me Doctor for nothing!
And what about you Dr Dinesh?
CHOWIGAN
AKM74:
> For I see it if wasn't for the two brothers.......Laos would suffered >the
same fate as our neighbor in the south(Cambodia).
>>Back Souphanouvong,
>>Back Souvannaphouma
Without these two idiots to run the country!!! We might not be in this mess in
the first place. Why didn't you add Back Boun Oum with them?
It was Back Souphanouvong who brought the Vietnamese into Laos, he was used by
Back Kaysone. Without Back Souphanouvong to be his puppet, Back Kaysone
wouldn't have done it. Without Back Souphanouvong, Back Kaysone, Back Nouhak
and Back Khamthai would be in the jungle or in Hanoi, not in Viet-tiane
(Vientiane).
If Back Souphanouvong gave his support to Back Souvannaphouma, instead of
selling himself and his country to the Keo. Back Kaysone, Back Nouhak and Back
Khamthai would still hiding like thieves in the jungle of Laos.
Of course, when a ship goes down, it is the Captain to be blame and it is Back
Souvannaphouma. Coemt o think of it, when Dtigger criticized the RLG, he must
be referring to Back Souphanouvong.
Chowigan
AKM 74
>Without these two idiots to run the country!!! We might not be in this mess in
the first place.
Yeah.....what we shoulda have then was a leader like Phoumi Nosavan, Phoua
Sayanikone(spelling???) and Kou Abbay(spelling???). Oh wait....these 3 are
too corrupted and undemocratic. What we need is somebody that are very
democratic in nature. Hmmm....that would be Soumaly! (:
>Why didn't you add Back Boun Oum with them?
I woulda but the Right Wing People got a hold of him first.
>It was Back Souphanouvong who brought the Vietnamese into Laos, he was
used>by>Back Kaysone.
When he was a young Lao Issara's Foreign Minister in Bangkok, he was sent to
the U.S. Embassy there to ask for some assistance and U.S. recognition of the
Lao Issara Movement but Uncle Sam turned him down. The Lion of Sip Song Chao
Tai couldn't cope with the rejection so he turned to Uncle Ho instead.
>If Back Souphanouvong gave his support to Back Souvannaphouma, instead of
selling himself and his country to the Keo.
I don't think he was selling himself nor he was selling his country to anyone
or any country. You just admitted that he was used or fooled in your above
statements. I personally think that he was a true Lao Patriot and
Nationalist.
>Of course, when a ship goes down, it is the Captain to be blame and it is Back
Souvannaphouma.
That's a wrong assumption. Let say the ship was sabotage and sank do you still
think that the Captain is too blame? Ok, here another scenerio: The ship
was hitted by a mine and sank. Do you still think that the Captain is to
blame?
Hak Phaeng as always,
>Chowigan and Akm-74 too
Lao Houn Mai
On 4 Apr 1998 05:38:01 GMT, ak...@aol.com (AKM 74) wrote:
>>Back Souphanouvong,
>>Back Souvannaphouma
>
>
>Hey brothers,
>
>
> The Sons of Bounkong happened to be my heroes and Mr. Brown!
>Please elaborate more on their leadership that you find it disturbing. For I
>see it if wasn't for the two brothers.......Laos would suffered the same fate
>as our neighbor in the south(Cambodia). Please let not alienate each other,
>ok! Where's our mutual understanding and mutual respects?
>When will the proverb, "Ai hoo song....nong hoo 1 comes into apply here? C'mon
>now....shall we move on?
Of all those involved in the political situation before 1975 the person who has been subjected to
more criticism within the Lao community than anybody else is Souvannaphouma. At the same time
Souvannaphouma was widely respected by all factions of the Lao, and universally respected by those
who know him in the international community. How can this be? Is the criticism fair? What is the
criticism based on?
I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is and issue the following challenge: I am prepared to
pay a reward of $1000 to anybody who can post on SCL an article about Souvannaphouma which satisfies
all of the following criteria:
1 Totally honest, fair, plausible and realistic, with no unsubstantiated slander, lies,
fabrications, distortions, exagerations, etc.
2 Allegations against Souvannaphouma may be discussed, but only in a manner which is fair and
realistic, backed up by such relevant evidence as may be available - and if no adequate evidence is
available the allegations should be dismissed as unfounded as appropriate. No allegations or
unsubstantiated criticisms may be used except to the extent that such use can be justified as
reasonable and fair and in accordance with widely available and properly established facts and
opinions.
3 Concrete facts must be discussed in connection with Souvannaphouma's actions and behaviour
throughout the period in question, including both positive and negative points. If due account is
not made any positive contributions as well as any negative contributions (as can be shown by
counter-example) then the article shall not qualify.
4 Relevant facts should be discussed in relation to the practical and political realities of
the situation, not in artificial terms that do not correspond to the real situation.
5 Analysis should take account of a range of international academic studies of the pre-1975
conflict in Laos in a fair and reasonable manner, including reasonable justification for any
conclusions which substantially depart from widely held views, and should give adequate coverage of
alternative possible interpretations and views.
6 Using such methods and analysis, the article should be able to clearly establish that
Souvannaphouma was not dedicated to a peaceful settlement to the conflicts in Laos that is in the
interests of the Lao people, to the best of his abilities and within the limitations of his own
authority and powers and taking account of the fact that everybody makes misjudgements and mistakes
and nobody is perfect.
7 Conformance with these criteria shall be judged in terms of accuracy, reasonableness of
arguments, and above all by any counter-examples which could be made and justified. No article can
qualify without proper critical analysis by this newsgroup.
8 The absence of any qualifying article can be taken as evidence that Souvannaphouma was
dedicated to achieving a peaceful settlement of the conflicts in Laos to the best of his abilities,
and that the fall of Laos to the North Vietnamese was in spite of his noble and distinguished
efforts not because of them.
I make this offer in good faith, confident that it would not be possible to prepare such an article,
because I am entirely confident that Souvannaphouma will be exonnerated in any such analysis.
However if I am proved wrong, then I shall gladly provide the reward to the worthy recipient.
I expect to see contributions from all those who have attacked Souvannaphouma's reputation on this
forum. Any person who has attacked Souvannaphouma but who is not willing to substantiate their
attack with properly justified arguments and supporting information does not deserve to be taken
seriously.
CHOWIGAN
>From: ak...@aol.com (AKM 74)
>That's a wrong assumption. Let say the ship was sabotage and sank do you
still think that the Captain is too blame? Ok, here another scenerio: The
ship was hitted by a mine and sank. Do you still think that the Captain is to
blame?
>
>
Unfortunately brother!!!! The Capitaine is responsible for the operation and
the unity of his "ship's personel".
Regarding Back Souphanouvong, he should have turn to Back Souvannaphouma. He
should have gone to do everything possible and the impossible to unite Laos and
its people. But instead he turn to Back Kaysone and his Keo master (family and
relatives) in Hanoi, by doing this he have sold himself and his country to
Vietnam, he was fooled by Back Kaysone or not, Back Souphanouvong should be at
least be hold on his own action.
Back Souphanouvong should have been more "picky" about his friends. I am not
questionning or criticizing his patriotism or nationalism.
Chowigan
CHOWIGAN
>From: Fre...@igc.org***newaddress (Lao Houn Mai)
>about Souvannaphouma which satisfies
>all of the following criteria:
Of course, a Capitaine of a ship having already a mutinery aboard before he got
the chair is not very pleasant. I didn't mean to criticize Souvannaphouma
solely. His XO, Cox'n and the rest of the personel could have gave their
support to their CO.
What did his personnel have done for him? They went down and start to drill a
hole on the ship so that they would be able to sink the Capitaine. This is so
Lao, we are willing to drown our leader without realizing that the personel
(our/themselves) are likely to be drown along the way too.
Chowigan
DTigger
FL,
Wow! Very stringent, but I like it! Like you, I am curious to see what comes
out of the wood work, if any.
By the way, sorry I can't include myself in this discussion, as Chowy would
attest to my lack of knowledge on Lao's history. On a serious note, I am very
interested (I think others are too) in the life and time of Souvannaphouma.
Furthermore, will the accounts be factual and objective or would they be more
biased and based on empircal observations? In other words, can we stick with
the subject at hand, or will we try to redirect the subject towards other area.
I am doubtful that we can focus on this topic alone. There are individuals
who would use this as a springboard into their own propaganda.
Let us see...
Redfoxb51
>From: "Dinesh Pashmin, PhD, LLD, MD" <Bus...@Hotmail.com>
>Message-id: <35255C...@Hotmail.com>
>
>
Dr. Dinesh Pashmin wrote:
>
>OK, "RedfoxB51." Are you sure you're not Soumaly online personality #3?
>Give me a break. They don't call me Doctor for nothing!
Okay, Doc, I am sure, I am not Soyumaly1's online personality #3. They may or
may not call you " Doctor for nothing". What about you Doc? are you sure you're
not C Chan's on line personality #3?, hey Doc let's make sure , we understand
each other, my post was inresponse to C Chan's insulting my buddy Soumaly1,
how come it hurt your feeling?. It does not surprise me a bit,... Doc, a person
of your intelligent shoud at least understand that LPDR signed the treaty in
1954, The Neutrality of Laos in 1962, The Agreemant on cease-fire in Laos 1973
and the Universal Declaration of Huamn Rights, wich guarantee the pricinble
FREE DOM for the lao people, incuding LPDR's Constitution. Doc, do the above
treaties guarantee Lao citizens the right of individual liberty, assembly,
press, movement, religious and freedom of thouhgt, expression, political
prties, organizations, the right to do business, and hold priavte property.
LPDR signed any treaties that did not and still does not mean they will carry
out or honor them. Since you know more about LPDR why don't tell us how many
Human Rights have LPDR respect so far. What is your motive? why do you chose to
be on the other side?. Are you saying that I was on the wrong side during the
cold war in Laos?.
To assure you, Doc, I called Soumaly "my buddy" not because I am Sumaly#1 or
#2 or#3, it's that any things he said or wrote represent my interest and my
pricinble believe.
Does PhD, LLD, and MD---- has three personalities?.
AKM 74
On Mon, Apr 6, 1998 13:21 EDT, chow...@aol.com (CHOWIGAN), wrote:
>Unfortunately brother!!!! The Capitaine is responsible for the operation and
the unity of his "ship's personel".
But in the case of Souvanna Phouma, he was held hostaged by his own men. If he
went too far his right wing generals would threaten him with a Coup d'e-tat.
>Regarding Back Souphanouvong, he should have turn to Back Souvannaphouma.
Why do you think he should turns to Princes Souvanna Phouma? What differences
does it make? So they could the perfect scapegoats for the Right Wing
generals!
> He should have gone to do everything possible and the impossible to unite
Laos and its people.
He did....he joined the Vietminh in the hope of uniting the lost territories of
Lan Xang Empire. It is sad that his nationalist and patriotic ambition of his
backfire on him. If the Sino-Vietnamese relationship were as warm as it were
during the earlier stage of the
Indochinese revolution the Sixteen Provinces on the West Bank would have been
in the Lao hand instead of the Siamese. At least he succeed in uniting the
rest of Laos's French Indochina in which his predessessors failed to do. My
utmost respect goes to the " Lion of Sipsong Chao Tai" for his Lao
Nationalistic aims and unconditioned Lao Patriotic.
>Back Souphanouvong should have been more "picky" about his friends.
There aren't any choices then. He tried his luck with Uncle Sam but Uncle Sam
was too good for a Chinaman then.
> I am not questionning or criticizing his patriotism or nationalism.
I'm glad you didn't cause the man is full of patriotism and nationalism.
Hak Phaeng as always,
>Chowigan and Akm-74 too!
CHOWIGAN
>From: ak...@aol.com (AKM 74)
>>Regarding Back Souphanouvong, he should have turn to Back Souvannaphouma.
>Why do you think he should turns to Princes Souvanna Phouma? What differences
does it make? So they could the perfect scapegoats for the Right Wing
generals!
>
Well, the right wing Generals should also have given their support to Prince
Souvannaphouma. You have a good point!!! But let me ask you back, what happened
to Back Phoumi, who was backed by the CIA? Much like his beloved uncle was
backed by the CIA.
Princes Souphanouvong and Souvannaphouma could have been able to withstand the
right wing pressure. At least he should have given a chance for the unity.
Would you think it would be better for us to remember even if we fall, we have
fought in unity among the Lao people? Not as having "Lao Kai Sat" to uncle Back
Ho.
>He did....he joined the Vietminh in the hope of uniting the lost territories
of Lan Xang Empire. It is sad that his nationalist and patriotic ambition of
his backfire on him. If the Sino-Vietnamese relationship were as warm as it
were during the earlier stage of the Indochinese revolution the Sixteen
Provinces on the West Bank would have been in the Lao hand instead of the
Siamese. At least he succeed in uniting the rest of Laos's French Indochina in
which his predessessors failed to do. My utmost respect goes to the " Lion
of Sipsong Chao Tai" for his Lao Nationalistic aims and unconditioned Lao
Patriotic.
>
Well, we still have a long road ahead of us. I am still young!!!!
Let this be a lesson to us all.
Chowigan
Lao Houn Mai
On 09 Apr 1998 22:56:32 GMT, ak...@aol.com (AKM 74) wrote:
>>Regarding Back Souphanouvong, he should have turn to Back Souvannaphouma.
>
>Why do you think he should turns to Princes Souvanna Phouma? What differences
>does it make? So they could the perfect scapegoats for the Right Wing
>generals!
>
>> He should have gone to do everything possible and the impossible to unite
>Laos and its people.
>
>He did....he joined the Vietminh in the hope of uniting the lost territories of
> Lan Xang Empire. It is sad that his nationalist and patriotic ambition of his
>backfire on him. If the Sino-Vietnamese relationship were as warm as it were
>during the earlier stage of the
>Indochinese revolution the Sixteen Provinces on the West Bank would have been
>in the Lao hand instead of the Siamese. At least he succeed in uniting the
>rest of Laos's French Indochina in which his predessessors failed to do. My
>utmost respect goes to the " Lion of Sipsong Chao Tai" for his Lao
>Nationalistic aims and unconditioned Lao Patriotic.
>
>>Back Souphanouvong should have been more "picky" about his friends.
>
>There aren't any choices then. He tried his luck with Uncle Sam but Uncle Sam
>was too good for a Chinaman then.
As a point of comparison it is worth noting that in 1979 when Prince Sihanouk left Cambodia amidst
the Vietnamese invasion he flew to the United States with documents in his hands asking for
political asylum - Nixon refused, forcing him to go to China. Sihanouk is constantly criticised for
being too close to China but what people don't realise is the extent to which both Souvannaphouma
and Sihanouk were simply pawns to the superpowers, struggling to make moves that might have some
influence in their own countries - in reality the best they could hope to do was like trying to
paddle an ocean liner with a plastic teaspoon while being swept around in the oceans at the mercy of
the superpowers.