Camping on Shabbat
Randy B.
Organization: CTS Network Services
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
camping over a weekend? I have not been in over a year, and would like
to once this whole el nino business stops dumping on us here in
Southern California. Has anybody had any practical experience,
specifically setting up an eruv? Thanks!
Randy
Joe Slater
mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) wrote:
>===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
>camping over a weekend?
I considered it, but decided against it. It's just too difficult.
Regarding an Eruv, as a layperson I would say that there's an
immediate problem: the wilderness is generally viewed as being a
"real" public place (reshut harabim m'doraita) and therefore would
need a "real" wall to make it a private place.
jds
Craig Winchell
B"H
Randy:
I've been camping on Shabbos. Contrary to what Joe Slater wrote, the
wilderness is a carmelis, given that 600,000 people just don't tend to go
through the wilderness, or else it wouldn't be wilderness. But it really
wouldn't matter anyway. To make an eruv, you'll need some tall stakes,
some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
twine must sit on top of them, so you'll need a fastener of some sort. If I
recall correctly, the twine must sit at least 10 amos above the ground.
Take care,
Craig Winchell
Randy B. <mem...@cts.com> wrote in article
<350492c2....@news2.cts.com>...
> ===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
Shoshana L. Boublil
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 01:11:30 GMT, mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) wrote:
>===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
>camping over a weekend? I have not been in over a year, and would like
>to once this whole el nino business stops dumping on us here in
>Southern California. Has anybody had any practical experience,
>specifically setting up an eruv? Thanks!
>
>Randy
In Israel we have camping trips on Shabbat.
For details you might contact Bnei Akiva headquarters in New York.
They probably have some Shlichim with practical experience.
(they have a web site, I don't know the url).
Shoshana
p&m
come visit:
www.hilonet.com/achdut/ - the Achdut Yisrael web site!!!
Torah U'Madah ltd. homepage:
www.netvision.net.il/php/toramada/
Harry Weiss
Craig Winchell (gan...@ganeden.com) wrote:
: B"H
: Randy:
: I've been camping on Shabbos. Contrary to what Joe Slater wrote, the
: wilderness is a carmelis, given that 600,000 people just don't tend to go
: through the wilderness, or else it wouldn't be wilderness. But it really
: wouldn't matter anyway. To make an eruv, you'll need some tall stakes,
: some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
: twine must sit on top of them, so you'll need a fastener of some sort. If I
: recall correctly, the twine must sit at least 10 amos above the ground.
Actually 10 tefeachim - about 35-40 inches vs. 15 feet.
: Take care,
: Craig Winchell
: Randy B. <mem...@cts.com> wrote in article
: <350492c2....@news2.cts.com>...
: > ===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
: > camping over a weekend? I have not been in over a year, and would like
: > to once this whole el nino business stops dumping on us here in
: > Southern California. Has anybody had any practical experience,
: > specifically setting up an eruv? Thanks!
: >
: > Randy
: >
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@netcom.com
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
In article <350492c2....@news2.cts.com>, mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) writes:
> ===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
> camping over a weekend? I have not been in over a year, and would like
> to once this whole el nino business stops dumping on us here in
> Southern California. Has anybody had any practical experience,
> specifically setting up an eruv? Thanks!
Camping out (tents, etc.) over a shabbat is possible but is very very
complicated if one wants to avoid violating any shabbat prohibition.
There are problems of: carrying objects, pouring water on the ground,
preparing food, etc.
Josh
>
> Randy
DocForRox
>Craig Winchell (gan...@ganeden.com) wrote:
>: I've been camping on Shabbos. Contrary to what Joe Slater wrote, the
>: wilderness is a carmelis, given that 600,000 people just don't tend to go
>: through the wilderness, or else it wouldn't be wilderness. But it really
>: wouldn't matter anyway. To make an eruv, you'll need some tall stakes,
>: some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How much deviation from "vertical" is allowed? I'll bet if you went
around your neighborhood with a bubble level and started checking the
telephone poles, lamp posts, etc. that support your local eruv, you would
find some minor deviations.
I can see it now, my esteemed "relative," Rabbi Ezekiel Rox, the Chief
Rabbi of the Internet, ruling that
ALL ERUVIM ARE INVALID
[SNIP]
Another thing, is there a difference between a campside in the
"backcountry" and an established drive-up campground? If you're going to
do drive-up "family" style camping, I'll bet it might be possible to have
the camground operators work with an established jewish group/rabbinical
body to install and maintain an eruv as a design feature.
Josh also mentioned something about "pouring water on the ground." Why
should this be a shabat problem?
It seems to me that the real problems include:
1) a safe way to light Shabbat candles and allow them to keep burning,
even if the evening turned breezy. ("Only you can prevent forest
fires.")
2) a safe way to either heat food or keep hot food warm during the whole
~26 hour period of Shabbat. (And if you think having hot food in the
outdoors isn't important, you either live in the tropics or you
don't have much camping experience.
I would imagine that Shabbat obervance is best maintained in an
established (proabably, but not necessarily, drive-up) campground, which
can be fit with an eruv, a cookhouse/dining pavilion with a blech-equipped
stove, etc. If you're out in the back country, you'd need to bring a lot
of extra equipment and expertise, so you'd need a yak train, a staff of
sherpas to carry the equipment, and a rabbi in the party to make sure you
do everything correctly. In fact, I think if one were in a position where
he _had_ to traverse the backcountry with only the stuff he could carry on
his back, full Shabbat observance would be impossible. I would think that
Orthodox rabbis (and even Conservative rabbis, if they really thought
about it) would discourage backpacking over Shabbat for purely
recreational purposes.
Perhpas we need to get the Sierra Club to sponsor some Shomer-Shabbat
kosher backpacking trips, under rabbinical supervision.
Doc
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au.DELETETHIS (Joe Slater) writes:
> mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) wrote:
>>===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
>>camping over a weekend?
>
> Regarding an Eruv, as a layperson I would say that there's an
> immediate problem: the wilderness is generally viewed as being a
> "real" public place (reshut harabim m'doraita) and therefore would
> need a "real" wall to make it a private place.
>
somewhere "in between" "real public" and "real private".
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
(mailed & posted)
Richard Schultz
Randy B. (mem...@cts.com) wrote:
: Has anybody had any practical experience, specifically setting
: up an eruv? Thanks!
The real problem with setting up an eruv is that the wire has to be on
*top* of the pole. I've had friends who brought along a premade set of
poles and string for the purpose. When I camped at Lassen National
Park, I found a campsite surrounded by "baby" trees. Explaining to
the park ranger what that string was doing around my campsite was
the difficult part. At Badlands National Park (fortunately, a
bear-free area -- this solution won't work in Yosemite) I had
everything either in a cooler in one spot or in my tent before Shabbat
started so that I wouldn't have to carry anything anywhere. (At
Yellowstone, I took the wimpy way out and rented a cabin.)
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
They do not think whom they souse with spray.
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au.DELETETHIS (Joe Slater) writes:
>mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) wrote:
>>===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
>>camping over a weekend?
>I considered it, but decided against it. It's just too difficult.
>Regarding an Eruv, as a layperson I would say that there's an
>immediate problem: the wilderness is generally viewed as being a
>"real" public place (reshut harabim m'doraita) and therefore would
>need a "real" wall to make it a private place.
Depends where you're camping. The Aussie Outback probably qualifies
as a real wilderness, but most of us go to places that are not real
wildernesses: Scout camps, private campgrounds, etc.
We set up eruvin at Pennsic (the big Society for Creative Anachronism
camping event) in various ways. The first year, we brought our own
poles & string and set them up around our campsite (a few tents). The
second year, someone did a bit of research and found that the telephone
wires, plus the fence along the Interstate, plus a stream in a ravine,
surrounded most of the whole group campsite, so we only had to make
tzurot hapetach over the bridges crossing the stream.
I haven't been there in several years, so I don't know how much of an
eruv they make these days; if Aryk Nusbacher is still lurking out there,
he's the one who did the research.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Jeremy M. Posner
In article <01bd4be9$d0f4a8c0$18d2...@ganeden.dnai.com>, "Craig Winchell"
<gan...@ganeden.com> wrote:
> B"H
>
> Randy:
>
> I've been camping on Shabbos. Contrary to what Joe Slater wrote, the
> wilderness is a carmelis, given that 600,000 people just don't tend to go
> through the wilderness, or else it wouldn't be wilderness. But it really
> wouldn't matter anyway. To make an eruv, you'll need some tall stakes,
> some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
> twine must sit on top of them, so you'll need a fastener of some sort. If I
> recall correctly, the twine must sit at least 10 amos above the ground.
If the 10 amot figure is correct, then it would be prohibitively difficult
to carry the stakes with you. Using the standard estimate of 1 amah being
18 inches (slightly under half a meter), that would mean that the stakes
would have to stand at least 15 feet (about 5 meters) high, and be long
enough to be lodged deep enough into the ground that they won't simply
fall over under their own weight. Remembering that you have to carry the
stakes with you as you go to your campsite, in addition to carrying all of
your other supplies, this method seems to be prohibitively difficult...
-JMP
> Take care,
> Craig Winchell
>
>
>
> Randy B. <mem...@cts.com> wrote in article
> <350492c2....@news2.cts.com>...
> > ===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
> > camping over a weekend? I have not been in over a year, and would like
> > to once this whole el nino business stops dumping on us here in
> > Southern California. Has anybody had any practical experience,
> > specifically setting up an eruv? Thanks!
> >
> > Randy
> >
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeremy M. Posner | "Ooooh! They have the internet on computers now!" |
| jpo...@panix.com | -Homer Simpson |
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Bill Page
Jonathan J. Baker <jjb...@panix.com> wrote:
> In <> j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au.DELETETHIS (Joe Slater) writes:
>>mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) wrote:
>>>===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
>>>camping over a weekend?
>>I considered it, but decided against it. It's just too difficult.
>>Regarding an Eruv, as a layperson I would say that there's an
>>immediate problem: the wilderness is generally viewed as being a
>>"real" public place (reshut harabim m'doraita) and therefore would
>>need a "real" wall to make it a private place.
> We set up eruvin at Pennsic (the big Society for Creative Anachronism
> camping event) in various ways. The first year, we brought our own
Is swordplay an acceptable shabbat activity if it's within an eruv?
--
Bill Page
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
In article <jposner-1003...@192.168.0.3>, jpo...@panix.com (Jeremy M. Posner) writes:
> In article <01bd4be9$d0f4a8c0$18d2...@ganeden.dnai.com>, "Craig Winchell"
> <gan...@ganeden.com> wrote:
>
>> B"H
>>
>> Randy:
>>
>> I've been camping on Shabbos. Contrary to what Joe Slater wrote, the
>> wilderness is a carmelis, given that 600,000 people just don't tend to go
>> through the wilderness, or else it wouldn't be wilderness. But it really
>> wouldn't matter anyway. To make an eruv, you'll need some tall stakes,
>> some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
>> twine must sit on top of them, so you'll need a fastener of some sort. If I
>> recall correctly, the twine must sit at least 10 amos above the ground.
>
> If the 10 amot figure is correct, then it would be prohibitively difficult
Apart from making an ERUV (which is very very difficult to make correctly),
you have to deal with many other prohibitions. Off the cuff, I can think
of the following activities you can't do: clearing stones from area; leveling
the ground; pouring water on the grass; breaking tree branches; gathering
twigs; brushing off dirt from clothes; tying down the tent; making the tent;
killing any insects bothering you; picking up any fruit that fell from
a tree; leaning against a tree; removing caked on mud from your shoes.
How are you going to store opened food cans ? You might as well forget
about having a campfire: you'll have to eat cold food. Where are you
going to store unwashed dishes ? In your tent ? :-)
A soldier who has to be outdoors on shabbat has many leniencies (see
the genara in Eiruvin 17) but this doesn't apply to someone who
purposely camps out on shabbat.
Forget it.
Josh (who used to go whitewater canoeing and mountain climbing)
> to carry the stakes with you. Using the standard estimate of 1 amah being
> 18 inches (slightly under half a meter), that would mean that the stakes
> would have to stand at least 15 feet (about 5 meters) high, and be long
> enough to be lodged deep enough into the ground that they won't simply
> fall over under their own weight. Remembering that you have to carry the
> stakes with you as you go to your campsite, in addition to carrying all of
> your other supplies, this method seems to be prohibitively difficult...
> -JMP
>
>> Take care,
>> Craig Winchell
>>
>>
>>
>> Randy B. <mem...@cts.com> wrote in article
>> <350492c2....@news2.cts.com>...
>> > ===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
Rafael
DocForRox wrote:
> >Craig Winchell (gan...@ganeden.com) wrote:
> >: some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> How much deviation from "vertical" is allowed? I'll bet if you went
> around your neighborhood with a bubble level and started checking the
> telephone poles, lamp posts, etc. that support your local eruv, you would
> find some minor deviations.
I don't know if this applies to the poles, but in yesterday's daf yomi
(Shabbat 100), there was mention of a principle that the sides of a
mound which reach the height of 10 tefachim within 4 amot have the
status of "zakuf" (upright), rendering them a separate domain. According
to Rashi, if the sides reach the height of 5 tefachim within 4 amot,
then they belong to the surrounding domain. Presumably, the angles in
between are in doubt. (corrections welcomed)
Rafael Malfatto
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> jpo...@panix.com (Jeremy M. Posner) writes:
>In article <01bd4be9$d0f4a8c0$18d2...@ganeden.dnai.com>, "Craig Winchell"
><gan...@ganeden.com> wrote:
>> some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
>> twine must sit on top of them, so you'll need a fastener of some sort. If I
>> recall correctly, the twine must sit at least 10 amos above the ground.
>If the 10 amot figure is correct, then it would be prohibitively difficult
>to carry the stakes with you. Using the standard estimate of 1 amah being
That's OK, he got the wrong measurement. The poles have to be at
least 10 tefachim, high, not 10 amot. That's about 36-40 inches.
or 1 meter.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Joe Mayerfeld
Backpacking on Shabbat is clearly impossible, halachikly:
#1 - T'chum Shabbos, which stipulates that you can't travel more than
2,000 amos past the border of your town or away from the foodstore that
you've set up for Shabbos (Eruv T'chumim).
#2 - Carrying more than 4 amos in a R'shus HaRabim (public domain) is
prohibited. Even assuming that there is no such thing as a R'shus HaRabim
M'dOraisa (Toraicly), it is still forbidden in a Karmelis (a place which
is 'neither here nor there') M'dRabonan (Rabbinically) ...
DocForRox <de...@access4.digex.net> wrote:
<snip>
: stove, etc. If you're out in the back country, you'd need to bring a lot
Randy B.
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:05:40 -0500, jpo...@panix.com (Jeremy M.
Posner) wrote:
>In article <01bd4be9$d0f4a8c0$18d2...@ganeden.dnai.com>, "Craig Winchell"
><gan...@ganeden.com> wrote:
>
>> B"H
>>
>> Randy:
>>
>> I've been camping on Shabbos. Contrary to what Joe Slater wrote, the
>> wilderness is a carmelis, given that 600,000 people just don't tend to go
>> through the wilderness, or else it wouldn't be wilderness. But it really
>> wouldn't matter anyway. To make an eruv, you'll need some tall stakes,
>> some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
>> twine must sit on top of them, so you'll need a fastener of some sort. If I
>> recall correctly, the twine must sit at least 10 amos above the ground.
>
>If the 10 amot figure is correct, then it would be prohibitively difficult
>to carry the stakes with you. Using the standard estimate of 1 amah being
>18 inches (slightly under half a meter), that would mean that the stakes
>would have to stand at least 15 feet (about 5 meters) high, and be long
>enough to be lodged deep enough into the ground that they won't simply
>fall over under their own weight. Remembering that you have to carry the
>stakes with you as you go to your campsite, in addition to carrying all of
>your other supplies, this method seems to be prohibitively difficult...
> -JMP
>
===> What if I used trees?
Randy
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>> Randy:
>>
>> I've been camping on Shabbos. Contrary to what Joe Slater wrote, the
>> wilderness is a carmelis, given that 600,000 people just don't tend to go
>> through the wilderness, or else it wouldn't be wilderness. But it really
>> wouldn't matter anyway. To make an eruv, you'll need some tall stakes,
>> some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
>> twine must sit on top of them, so you'll need a fastener of some sort. If I
>> recall correctly, the twine must sit at least 10 amos above the ground.
>
> If the 10 amot figure is correct, then it would be prohibitively difficult
> to carry the stakes with you.
Not to worry. The correctfigure is 10 _tephachim_ witha tephach being
1/6th of an amoh. 30-45 inches should do it.
Randy B.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
>
>Another thing, is there a difference between a campside in the
>"backcountry" and an established drive-up campground? If you're going to
>do drive-up "family" style camping, I'll bet it might be possible to have
>the camground operators work with an established jewish group/rabbinical
>body to install and maintain an eruv as a design feature.
===. drive up "family style" camping??? Please.
>1) a safe way to light Shabbat candles and allow them to keep burning,
> even if the evening turned breezy. ("Only you can prevent forest
> fires.")
===> Not really a problem. Some type of fire proof wind break won't be
hard to create or find.
>2) a safe way to either heat food or keep hot food warm during the whole
> ~26 hour period of Shabbat. (And if you think having hot food in the
> outdoors isn't important, you either live in the tropics or you
> don't have much camping experience.
===> A thermal cooler should do just fine to keep some chicken hot for
Friday night. As far as the weather, I live in San Diego, and will be
camping in the Southern California desert. Regardless, I enjoy cold
weather camping as well ( Califonia cold weather - like 60 degrees)
>I would imagine that Shabbat obervance is best maintained in an
>established (proabably, but not necessarily, drive-up) campground, which
>can be fit with an eruv, a cookhouse/dining pavilion with a blech-equipped
>stove, etc. If you're out in the back country, you'd need to bring a lot
>of extra equipment and expertise, so you'd need a yak train, a staff of
>sherpas to carry the equipment, and a rabbi in the party to make sure you
>do everything correctly. In fact, I think if one were in a position where
>he _had_ to traverse the backcountry with only the stuff he could carry on
>his back, full Shabbat observance would be impossible. I would think that
>Orthodox rabbis (and even Conservative rabbis, if they really thought
>about it) would discourage backpacking over Shabbat for purely
>recreational purposes.
===> What a bunch of boring Jews you people are! A Shabbat out in the
middle of the desert, away from the city, away from a million cars
zooming around, away from the cloud of smog that passes for air around
here....I think G-d wants everyone to do this once in a while! If you
were my Rabbi you'ld be looking for a job, buster.
Randy
Jonathan J. Baker
If it's recreation, why not? If it's for exercise, there's more likely
to be a problem. In Lake Mohegan, a religious summer community near
NYC, there is a weekly softball game. Actually, I don't remember if
the one frum fighter in our group participated in the Field Battle
(the big battle on Shabbat)
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>In article <>, jpo...@panix.com (Jeremy M. Posner) writes:
>> In article <>, "Craig Winchell"
>>> some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
>>> twine must sit on top of them, so you'll need a fastener of some sort. If I
>>> recall correctly, the twine must sit at least 10 amos above the ground.
>> If the 10 amot figure is correct, then it would be prohibitively difficult
It's not, see other post.
>Apart from making an ERUV (which is very very difficult to make correctly),
>you have to deal with many other prohibitions. Off the cuff, I can think
Which depend on where you're staying, and how you set up the camp.
>of the following activities you can't do: clearing stones from area; leveling
>the ground; pouring water on the grass; breaking tree branches; gathering
>twigs; brushing off dirt from clothes; tying down the tent; making the tent;
>killing any insects bothering you; picking up any fruit that fell from
>a tree; leaning against a tree; removing caked on mud from your shoes.
Clearing stones, leveling the ground, are only applicable to setting up
the campsite, which would be done on Friday.
Gathering twigs, tying down the tent, making the tent, similarly only
apply to setting up a tent. If it blows over on Shabbos, you haven't
set it up right, but you're probably stuck.
As for the other problems, how are they any different from living
at home: brushing dirt off, removing mud, picking up deadfall fruit,
killing insects, leaning against a tree - all of these one might do
just as well in Brooklyn as in Cooper's Lake.
>How are you going to store opened food cans ? You might as well forget
Why would you store opened food cans? Opening cans is not necessarily
prohibited; some say yes, some say not.
>about having a campfire: you'll have to eat cold food. Where are you
You have the campfire at night, and cook the food in it, at least for
Friday night. If you really want hot stuff on Saturday, have you ever
heard of a thermos? a bean-hole (cholent cooked underground with hot
rocks; of course digging it up might be a problem, but it could probably
be arranged with wires to pull it out of the hole)
>going to store unwashed dishes ? In your tent ? :-)
Or in a box outdoors? Or in a tank of water you have prepared beforehand?
>A soldier who has to be outdoors on shabbat has many leniencies (see
>the genara in Eiruvin 17) but this doesn't apply to someone who
>purposely camps out on shabbat.
The New York Jewish Committee on Scouting publishes a booklet on Shabbat
camping. It was perfectly fine at Scout camp, it was fine at Pennsic,
it can be done but it requires a lot more forethought and preparation
than a non-Shabbat camp.
>Forget it.
Don't forget it. Be prepared.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Jonathan J. Baker
In <mo...@cts.com (Randy B.) writes:
>===> What if I used trees?
Don't use trees. Remember, the string has to pass *over the top* of the
vertical pole. For the eruvin at Scout camp, around the (outdoor)
synagogue and around the religious-troop campsite, they used poles tied to
the trees, but the strings went over the tops of the poles, not over
the trees. The poles were about 5-6 feet high.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Jonathan J. Baker
>>1) a safe way to light Shabbat candles and allow them to keep burning,
>> even if the evening turned breezy. ("Only you can prevent forest
>> fires.")
>===> Not really a problem. Some type of fire proof wind break won't be
>hard to create or find.
Candle-lanterns with a heavy enough base so they don't fall over, or else
suspended.
>>2) a safe way to either heat food or keep hot food warm during the whole
>> ~26 hour period of Shabbat. (And if you think having hot food in the
>> outdoors isn't important, you either live in the tropics or you
>> don't have much camping experience.
>===> A thermal cooler should do just fine to keep some chicken hot for
>Friday night. As far as the weather, I live in San Diego, and will be
>camping in the Southern California desert. Regardless, I enjoy cold
>weather camping as well ( Califonia cold weather - like 60 degrees)
And it's not strictly necessary to have hot food for lunch, if
the weather is warm. If you really want warm water, you could
heat it up in one of those shower bags - black plastic.
>>I would imagine that Shabbat obervance is best maintained in an
>>established (proabably, but not necessarily, drive-up) campground, which
>> ... I would think that
>>Orthodox rabbis (and even Conservative rabbis, if they really thought
>>about it) would discourage backpacking over Shabbat for purely
>>recreational purposes.
>===> What a bunch of boring Jews you people are! A Shabbat out in the
>middle of the desert, away from the city, away from a million cars
>zooming around, away from the cloud of smog that passes for air around
>here....I think G-d wants everyone to do this once in a while! If you
>were my Rabbi you'ld be looking for a job, buster.
It's difficult to do while traveling alone without a car (or a pack animal
to carry your equipment)
My great great grandfather was a travelling peddler in central Pennsylvania,
and he made sure to be home on Shabbat.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Nick Landau
In article <1998Mar10.083547@hujicc>,
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>In article <350492c2....@news2.cts.com>, mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) writes:
>> ===> I have a question for the observant set here. Have you gone
>> camping over a weekend? I have not been in over a year, and would like
>> to once this whole el nino business stops dumping on us here in
>> Southern California. Has anybody had any practical experience,
>> specifically setting up an eruv? Thanks!
>
>
>Camping out (tents, etc.) over a shabbat is possible but is very very
>complicated if one wants to avoid violating any shabbat prohibition.
>There are problems of: carrying objects, pouring water on the ground,
>preparing food, etc.
>
>Josh
>
>
What did they do in the Wilderness? It seems that according to this we
should have still been in Egypt;)
Nick
Leonard Grossman
In article <B12CCAF59...@n-landau.demon.co.uk>,
Len
Leonard Grossman gros...@mcs.net
Notes from a ModemJunkie <URL:http://www.mcs.net/~grossman/>
Genesis in Glass <URL:http://www.mcs.net/~grossman/gropper.htm>
DocForRox
de...@access4.digex.net (DocForRox) writes:
>>Craig Winchell (gan...@ganeden.com) wrote:
>>: I've been camping on Shabbos. Contrary to what Joe Slater wrote, the
>>: wilderness is a carmelis, given that 600,000 people just don't tend to go
>>: through the wilderness, or else it wouldn't be wilderness. But it really
>>: wouldn't matter anyway. To make an eruv, you'll need some tall stakes,
>>: some twine, and a bubble level. The stakes must be vertical, and the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>How much deviation from "vertical" is allowed? I'll bet if you went
>around your neighborhood with a bubble level and started checking the
>telephone poles, lamp posts, etc. that support your local eruv, you would
>find some minor deviations.
>I can see it now, my esteemed "relative," Rabbi Ezekiel Rox, the Chief
>Rabbi of the Internet, ruling that
>ALL ERUVIM ARE INVALID
My esteemed brother, 'Doc" has been reading my mail again :). I'm going
to have to have a word with him.
Well, might as well make it public, in honor of Purim:
SHAILA:
What's the deal with eruvim, rabbi?
TESHUVA:
May G-d protect us and the House of Israel from such poorly phrased
questions! What do you mean, 'what's the deal with eruvim?' Do you want
to know what an eruv is? In that case, why not buy a copy of "Jewish
Literacy" and let Rabbi Telushkin earn some royalty payments, or at least
got o the library and check it out in a relaibale halachic book. Oh..You
mean, "why do some frum Jews use eruvim and others don't, and what should
_I_ do?" That's a horse of a different colour!
Well, some frum Jews don't like eruvim because it seems like you're trying
to "get around" a Torah Law, in this case the law that you're not supposed
carry stuff from the privarte domain to the public domain. So in order to
allow pious frum women to be able to grab their kids when they start to
run in front of traffic on Shabbat, our sages cleverly instituted the
"eruv," which is essentially a string placed on poles around a
neighborhood. This string enclosure makes the entire area within a single
'private domain," and thus Jews are now allowed to carry stuff on Shabbat
out of their houses and into the area enclosed by the eruv.
Of course, such a thing actually makes life convenient and sensible, so
those Jews who wish to peg the needle on their Frum-o-meters don't like
it. Thus, they don't belive in eruvim, and drive themselves
crazy examining their pockets on Friday, forcing parents with infants to
be exiled an their homes during the Sabbath, and allowing a few kids to
run into the street and get hit by cars, becuase parents won't pick up the
kid when he runs out of the house into the public domain.
Noe, I have no problem with making life as easy as possible, but I must
reluctantly not approve of eruvim. This is because I learned on the
internet from R' Winchell that the poles on an eruvim must be _veritcal_.
Armed with a carpenter's bubble level, have gone out on the streets of my
hometown, an unnamed city in the eastern part of North America, and made
an examination of the poles supporting my community eruv. What I found,
shocked me. Not a single Pole was vertical! (I did find a few Czechs,
Slovaks, and Ukraninas who were vertical, but they weren't holding up eruv
strings) None of the telephone poles, light poles, etc. were vertical.
I can only come to the obvious conclusion that
ALL ERUVIM ARE INVALID!!
Not that the concept of the eruv is invalid, just that no one makes a
valid one. Until someone makes a valid one, we are forbidden to carry.
But wait, there's more!
I learn from the fact that if an eruv with non-vertical walls cannot
define a "private domain," then a _house_ with non-vertical walls cannot
either. I then took my bubble level to a randomly selected representative
sample of 50 houses of frum Yidden in my town, and to my horror I found
that NOT A SINGLE HOUSE HAD A VERTIVAL WALL> There was some minor
settlement in every house. Thus, the inescapable conclusion is that
IT IS FORBIDDEN TO CARRY ANYTHING, ANYWHERE ON SHABBAT, even in your own
home.
This means that you can't carry food from the kitchen into the dining
room, you can't lift the Kiddush cup to say kiddush, heck, you can't even
pick up a fork to eat!
So what can we do? How can we celebrate Shabbat!? I rule that if a pious
Jew cannot find a kosher house (one with perfectly vertical walls) then he
must spend Shabbat, the entire period of shabbat, all 25 hours of it,
laying in bed. But how will our communities be able to perform Shabbat
rituals? No problem. I have been training specially selected crews of
sympatetic Gentiles, who will perform all the rituals as needed. OF
course, as in all such use of the "Shabbos goy," it is forbidden to
actually_ask_ the gentile in question to perform the task. For example
one shouldpoint to the bottle of kiddush wine and say something like,
"boy, would a nice glass of wone taste good right now!" My specially
trained gentiles would immediately know that they shpuld fill a glass,
lift it while you say kiddush. And so on.
This is what I rule. This is da'as Torah. ANybody who disagrees is
worng, no better than a Karaite heretic Reform Rabbi, and is not
practising Judaism, but rather another religion!!
Any other questions?
Rabbi Ezekiel Rox
Chief Rabbi of the Internet
Harvey S. Cohen
Josh:
>>of the following activities you can't do: clearing stones from area; leveling
>>the ground; pouring water on the grass; breaking tree branches; gathering
>>twigs; brushing off dirt from clothes; tying down the tent; making the tent;
>>killing any insects bothering you; picking up any fruit that fell from
>>a tree; leaning against a tree; removing caked on mud from your shoes.
Jonathan:
>Clearing stones, leveling the ground, are only applicable to setting up
>the campsite, which would be done on Friday.
>Gathering twigs, tying down the tent, making the tent, similarly only
>apply to setting up a tent. If it blows over on Shabbos, you haven't
>set it up right, but you're probably stuck.
[sd]
>The New York Jewish Committee on Scouting publishes a booklet on Shabbat
>camping. It was perfectly fine at Scout camp, it was fine at Pennsic,
>it can be done but it requires a lot more forethought and preparation
>than a non-Shabbat camp.
[more Josh-Jonathan exchanges deleted for brevity]
Josh:
>>Forget it.
Jonathan:
>Don't forget it. Be prepared.
There are some discussions on s.c.j. that follow predictable patterns. This one
is my favorite [in all sincerity, with no irony intended].
1) Somebody asks how to do something nice.
2) Josh says "It's forbidden!"
3) Jonathan suggests ways to do it, and brings sources.
How pleasant Judaism can be, with the right attitude!
--
hsc...@att.com_(Harvey S. Cohen)
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> hsc...@att.com_ (Harvey S. Cohen) writes:
>>Josh Backon wrote:
>Jonathan Baker wrote:
>>>Forget it.
>>Don't forget it. Be prepared.
>How pleasant Judaism can be, with the right attitude!
Some of us were Boy Scouts once upon a time (Troop 613 Manhattan,
at last count Life Scout and then later Asst. Scoutmaster), and
haven't forgotten the motto.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
>>>Josh Backon wrote:
>
>>>>Forget it.
>>>Don't forget it. Be prepared.
>>How pleasant Judaism can be, with the right attitude!
>
> Some of us were Boy Scouts once upon a time (Troop 613 Manhattan,
> at last count Life Scout and then later Asst. Scoutmaster), and
> haven't forgotten the motto.
The "motto"! I haven't forgotten the "oath" (On my honor...) nor the
"law" (A scout _is_...)
And then I complain about Insipient Senility (tm). :-)
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
>> In <> hsc...@att.com_ (Harvey S. Cohen) writes:
>>>Jonathan Baker wrote:
>>>>Josh Backon wrote:
>>>>>Forget it.
>>>>Don't forget it. Be prepared.
>>>How pleasant Judaism can be, with the right attitude!
>> Some of us were Boy Scouts ... and haven't forgotten the motto.
>The "motto"! I haven't forgotten the "oath" (On my honor...) nor the
>"law" (A scout _is_...)
Did you grow up in the NY area? If so, where did you go to camp? If
you say Nianque or Kotokhe, that dates you.
A scout is. Trustworthyloyalhelpfulfriendlycourteouskindobedientcheerful-
thriftybravecleanandreverent. [the last word as fast as humanly possible].
I remember thinking that it was structured like the Talmud: You had the
one-word rubrics, then the one- or two-sentence expansion which the book
said you were supposed to memorize but nobody I knew did (mishna), and
then some paragraphs explaining each one (gemara).
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
> In <> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>>jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
>>> In <> hsc...@att.com_ (Harvey S. Cohen) writes:
>>>>Jonathan Baker wrote:
>>>>>Josh Backon wrote:
>
>>>>>>Forget it.
>>>>>Don't forget it. Be prepared.
>>>>How pleasant Judaism can be, with the right attitude!
>>> Some of us were Boy Scouts ... and haven't forgotten the motto.
>
>>The "motto"! I haven't forgotten the "oath" (On my honor...) nor the
>>"law" (A scout _is_...)
>
> Did you grow up in the NY area? If so, where did you go to camp? If
> you say Nianque or Kotokhe, that dates you.
I did but I never went to Boy Scout Camp. :-( I still recall going to
school during National Boy Scout week in full uniform. My Rav asked
me if I ever went to sleep-away camp. I hadn't yet. "I can't imagine
Shabbos without a Sefer Torah" he said. That was enough to get me to
never go.
> A scout is. Trustworthyloyalhelpfulfriendlycourteouskindobedientcheerful-
> thriftybravecleanandreverent. [the last word as fast as humanly possible].
You left out "hungry". :-)
>
> I remember thinking that it was structured like the Talmud: You had the
> one-word rubrics, then the one- or two-sentence expansion which the book
> said you were supposed to memorize but nobody I knew did (mishna), and
> then some paragraphs explaining each one (gemara).
Moshe Schorr
Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879
From article <6e4f0j$c...@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, by Joe Mayerfeld <jo...@IDT.NET>:
> Backpacking on Shabbat is clearly impossible, halachikly:
Yes, but a backpacking trip that extends over Shabbat should be fairly
straightforward. Just establish a camp on Friday, and leave everything
there until you break camp Sunday. Short hikes around the camp on
Saturday are OK, and if you want to make camp life easy, set up an eruv
around your camp -- a thousand feet of kite string or a few hundred feet
of orange marking tape doesn't weigh much and could easily be hung at an
appropriate height between treetrunks.
On the backpacking trips I've taken, I've frequently enjoyed spending two
consecutive nights in the same camp, even if we covered a long distance
on other days. It's nice to really get to know one place as well as
having an opportunity to travel between places.
Doug Jones
jo...@cs.uiowa.edu
Harry Weiss
Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879 (jo...@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu) wrote:
: From article <6e4f0j$c...@nnrp4.farm.idt.net>, by Joe Mayerfeld <jo...@IDT.NET>:
: > Backpacking on Shabbat is clearly impossible, halachikly:
: Yes, but a backpacking trip that extends over Shabbat should be fairly
: straightforward. Just establish a camp on Friday, and leave everything
: there until you break camp Sunday. Short hikes around the camp on
: Saturday are OK, and if you want to make camp life easy, set up an eruv
: around your camp -- a thousand feet of kite string or a few hundred feet
: of orange marking tape doesn't weigh much and could easily be hung at an
: appropriate height between treetrunks.
This does not create an Eruv. An eruv must create the semblance of a
doorway and the wire or tape must be directly on top of the posts. The
laws are relatively complicated and one would do well to study them with
a competent Rabbi prior to camping on Shabbat.
: On the backpacking trips I've taken, I've frequently enjoyed spending two
: consecutive nights in the same camp, even if we covered a long distance
: on other days. It's nice to really get to know one place as well as
: having an opportunity to travel between places.
: Doug Jones
: jo...@cs.uiowa.edu
--
Harry J. Weiss
hjw...@netcom.com
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
jo...@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes:
> Joe Mayerfeld <jo...@IDT.NET>:
>> Backpacking on Shabbat is clearly impossible, halachikly:
>
> Yes, but a backpacking trip that extends over Shabbat should be fairly
> straightforward. Just establish a camp on Friday, and leave everything
> there until you break camp Sunday. Short hikes around the camp on
> Saturday are OK, and if you want to make camp life easy, set up an eruv
> around your camp -- a thousand feet of kite string or a few hundred feet
> of orange marking tape doesn't weigh much and could easily be hung at an
> appropriate height between treetrunks.
Doug, it is not that simple to erect an Eruv. Just stringing some
kite string between treetrunks would _not_ be acceptible.
The idea of an Eruv, is that it's in the form of a "doorway". Albeit
a _very_ long doorway but the rules are straitforward. A "doorway",
halachakly, consists of two sides and a lintel _above_ them. The
"above" is very imprtant. Look at any Eruv constructed for the
purpose, and you'll see that the wire passes _above_ the pole,
_never_ in the middle.
There are _more_ halachot involved. Check with an expert. I just
wanted to point out this error. It was blatant enough for even _me_
to notice.
> On the backpacking trips I've taken, I've frequently enjoyed spending two
> consecutive nights in the same camp, even if we covered a long distance
> on other days. It's nice to really get to know one place as well as
> having an opportunity to travel between places.
Enjoy your hikes but just be sure to prepare halachikly as carefully
as you prepare the rest of your trip.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) writes:
Discussion of building an Eruv while camping snipped.
> ===> What if I used trees?
It would be next to impossible. The wire must go _over_ the poles.
Micha Berger
On 18 Mar 98 12:23:25 GMT, mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
: > ===> What if I used trees?
: It would be next to impossible. The wire must go _over_ the poles.
It depends on the shape of the tree. Often you can put the string at the first
branch, and either the tree is slanted enough to had 10 tephachim under the
string or the split is even enough that you are directly over the trunk.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Yehuda Katz, held by Syria 5755 days!
mi...@aishdas.org (11-Jun-82 - 18-Mar-98)
For a mitzvah is a candle, and the Torah its light.
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed
DocForRox
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) writes:
>Discussion of building an Eruv while camping snipped.
>> ===> What if I used trees?
>It would be next to impossible. The wire must go _over_ the poles.
What if you chopped off the tops of the trees so that the cut trunk was
like the top of a pole, and then you ran the string.wire on top of that.
I say this becuase I actually saw some trees in the neighborhood trimmed
that way the other day. Wierd, I wouldn't hire whoever dod it to
landscape my yard, but, ...
Is making an eruv _really_ that complicated that a rabbis couldn't
assemble a kit with instructions on how to put up a temporary one? Or is
this an example of rabbinic overcomplication of things so that the rabbis
can keep their followers under their thumb?
Doc
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
There is a paperback book (in Hebrew) called HILCHOT TZAVA (halacha
pertaining to the soldier) published by the MERCAZ L'HALACHA U'L'HALICHOT
TZAVA from Kibbutz Shaalavim in Israel that has an entire section (62
pages) on how to build an ERUV. When you see the diagrams and figures (and
the references to the Shulchan Aruch and other POSKIM, you'll see that it
is *not* something one can just build from the EYTZOT ACHITOPHEL (dumb
advice) offered by some well-meaning persons on SCJ.
Josh
>
> Doc
>
Binyamin Dissen
On 18 Mar 98 12:23:25 GMT mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
:>mem...@cts.com (Randy B.) writes:
:>Discussion of building an Eruv while camping snipped.
:>> ===> What if I used trees?
:>It would be next to impossible. The wire must go _over_ the poles.
Actually one can use Lavud and make walls.
If I recall correctly, one can use a strip of cloth 3 tefachim wide, place it
just under 3 tefachim from the ground, and then use another 2+ tefach strip
just under 3 tefachim from the top of the first strip. This would make a valid
wall.
If the camping qualifies as a group of travelers then there are further
leniencies.
Contact your Local Orthodox/Torah Observant Rav.
--
Binyami...@theoffice.net
Binyamin Dissen <bdi...@netvision.net.il>
Warning, I AM NOT A POSEK. This is not a PSAK.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
> de...@access1.digex.net (DocForRox) writes:
>> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il writes:
>>
>>>Discussion of building an Eruv while camping snipped.
>>
>>>> ===> What if I used trees?
>>
>>>It would be next to impossible. The wire must go _over_ the poles.
>>
>> like the top of a pole, and then you ran the string.wire on top of that.
>> I say this becuase I actually saw some trees in the neighborhood trimmed
>> that way the other day. Wierd, I wouldn't hire whoever dod it to
>> landscape my yard, but, ...
I espescially think that such behaviour would get you permanently banned
from the campsite. Not to mention the antipathy it would generate.
>> Is making an eruv _really_ that complicated that a rabbis couldn't
>> assemble a kit with instructions on how to put up a temporary one?
>> Or is this an example of rabbinic overcomplication of things so
>> that the rabbis can keep their followers under their thumb?
Yes, no. Do you have _any_ such examples? Why not assume that the
Rabbis are more aware of the seriousness of the problem and want to
insure that no one came to trangress?
> There is a paperback book (in Hebrew) called HILCHOT TZAVA (halacha
> pertaining to the soldier) published by the MERCAZ L'HALACHA U'L'HALICHOT
> TZAVA from Kibbutz Shaalavim in Israel that has an entire section (62
> pages) on how to build an ERUV. When you see the diagrams and figures (and
> the references to the Shulchan Aruch and other POSKIM, you'll see that it
> is *not* something one can just build from the EYTZOT ACHITOPHEL (dumb
> advice) offered by some well-meaning persons on SCJ.
Thanks Josh for the information. One off-topic question. Why do define
"Atzat Achitophel" as "dumb advice"? I know that's modern Hebrew usage
but I can't figure out why. The verse in Samuel 16:23 is fulsome in
its praise of Achitophel's advice.