Aiver Min Hachai Question

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Dan Shimoff

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Dec 29, 1993, 12:00:29 PM12/29/93
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While I do not think we are proscribed from eating "mountain
oysters" (testicles), since they are usually gained from an
bull while making it a steer, would this be problematic as
it would be of the prohibition of aiver min hachai (eating
a limb of a living animal)?

I am honestly not about to try this so-called delicacy, but
I thought it might be an interesting question to ask. Is there
such a thing as kosher testicles (from a bull that was
slaughtered) where this would not be an issue?

Obthoughtfortheday: Laughter turns to slaughter with just one letter.

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Dan Shimoff
Phone: (212) 602-6798
Address: sh...@tudor.com

rm...@cas.org

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Dec 29, 1993, 2:27:51 PM12/29/93
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In article <1993Dec29.1...@tudor.com>,

Dan Shimoff <sh...@tudor.com> wrote:
>
>While I do not think we are proscribed from eating "mountain
>oysters" (testicles), since they are usually gained from an
>bull while making it a steer, would this be problematic as
>it would be of the prohibition of aiver min hachai (eating
>a limb of a living animal)?
>
>I am honestly not about to try this so-called delicacy, but
>I thought it might be an interesting question to ask. Is there
>such a thing as kosher testicles (from a bull that was
>slaughtered) where this would not be an issue?

There's at least one Yemenite restaurant in Kerem Hateimanim in Tel Aviv
that is Kosher lemehadrin andhas Beitzei Shor (bull's balls) on the menu,
so I'm sure they're OK, as long as the bull has been slaughtered correctly.

>Obthoughtfortheday: Laughter turns to slaughter with just one letter.
>
>--
>==========================================================================
>Dan Shimoff
>Phone: (212) 602-6798
>Address: sh...@tudor.com


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bac...@vms.huji.ac.il

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Dec 29, 1993, 6:07:56 PM12/29/93
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In article <1993Dec29.1...@tudor.com>, sh...@tudor.com (Dan Shimoff) writes:
>
> While I do not think we are proscribed from eating "mountain
> oysters" (testicles), since they are usually gained from an
> bull while making it a steer, would this be problematic as
> it would be of the prohibition of aiver min hachai (eating
> a limb of a living animal)?
>
> I am honestly not about to try this so-called delicacy, but
> I thought it might be an interesting question to ask. Is there
> such a thing as kosher testicles (from a bull that was
> slaughtered) where this would not be an issue?


I once saw this on the menu of a kosher restaurant in Tel Aviv. Don't worry,
I ordered a steak :-)

Josh
bac...@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

da...@panix.com

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Dec 30, 1993, 9:35:02 AM12/30/93
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In <1993Dec29....@vms.huji.ac.il> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

>In article <1993Dec29.1...@tudor.com>, sh...@tudor.com (Dan Shimoff) writes:
>>
>> While I do not think we are proscribed from eating "mountain
>> oysters" (testicles), since they are usually gained from an
>> bull while making it a steer, would this be problematic as
>> it would be of the prohibition of aiver min hachai (eating
>> a limb of a living animal)?
>>
>> I am honestly not about to try this so-called delicacy, but
>> I thought it might be an interesting question to ask. Is there
>> such a thing as kosher testicles (from a bull that was
>> slaughtered) where this would not be an issue?


>I once saw this on the menu of a kosher restaurant in Tel Aviv. Don't worry,
>I ordered a steak :-)

>Josh
>bac...@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

These come from a slaughtered bull. The question is regarding the
permissibility of eating them when cut off a living bull.

Dan

Istvan Kertesz

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Dec 30, 1993, 11:08:39 AM12/30/93
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>These come from a slaughtered bull. The question is regarding the
>permissibility of eating them when cut off a living bull.

>Dan

I am not your LOR, but as far as I know, it would indeed be ever min hachai.
But I have a problem with the ones coming from a slaughtered bull. Aren't
we supposed not to eat the backside of an animal in memory of Jacob
avinu's (A"H) hip injury?

Yitzhak, slightly confused

A1C Timothy J. Miller

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Dec 30, 1993, 12:45:29 PM12/30/93
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On 30 Dec 1993 11:08:39 -0500, yit...@panix.com (Istvan Kertesz) said:

I> I am not your LOR, but as far as I know, it would indeed be ever min hachai.
I> But I have a problem with the ones coming from a slaughtered bull. Aren't
I> we supposed not to eat the backside of an animal in memory of Jacob
I> avinu's (A"H) hip injury?

That restriction applies to the sciatic(sp?) nerve, which is a
major nerve running through the haunch. The reason most people don't
bother to eat from that area at all is that it is a difficult procedure
for the butcher to excise the nerve completely. It's easier (and
cheaper) to do without.

-- Cerebus <t...@fozzy.brooks.af.mil>
"Correct me if I'm wrong."

Dan Shimoff

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Dec 30, 1993, 12:57:19 PM12/30/93
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As anyone kicked in the testicles knows, it ain't a kick in the backside.

Now some more questions of this nature. Although, we as Jews, are not
allowed to castrate bulls, we are allowed to benefit from the animal if
done already. Now, in the US bulls become steers to increase their
size and weight (more steak from an animal), and bulls are not commonly
slaughtered. Is this the same in Israel? If so, where do the
restaurants get their supply from? If its from Argentina, do they not
care as much about meat production as those in the US?

Don't STEER me wrong, but just where would you find a good supply of
land-based oysters, if the usual practice yields aiver min hachai? I
would think that if they kept a large group of bulls to yield these
delicacies, the expense would be humongous, since you lose the poundage
induced by COWstration. Has anyone HERD of how this is done? Am I
misSTEAKen about something?

(Sorry about the puns, I couldn't resist - however the question is
very serious.)

--
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Dan Shimoff
Phone: (212) 602-6798

Address: sh...@tudor.com

Gideon Ehrlich

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Dec 30, 1993, 6:39:25 PM12/30/93
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Dan Shimoff (sh...@tudor.com) wrote:


: Is there


: such a thing as kosher testicles (from a bull that was
: slaughtered) where this would not be an issue?

I can't even imagine any reason for a negative answer.
The Mishna . Hulin' said that a rough man ( nefesh hayafa) who
slaughtered a pregnant cow can eat even the placenta!

bac...@vms.huji.ac.il

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Dec 30, 1993, 9:03:47 PM12/30/93
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According to the Tur Yoreh Deah Siman 62 and the RAMBAM Hilchot Ma'achalot
Assurot, Perek 5, Halacha 7, although it's not strictly forbidden by the Torah,
it has become customary to refrain from eating this (from a LIVE animal) since
it SIMILAR to EVER MIN Ha'Chai.

Josh
bac...@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL


>

Zev Sero

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Dec 31, 1993, 2:51:24 AM12/31/93
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JB = bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
DO = da...@panix.com

DO> These come from a slaughtered bull. The question is regarding the
DO> permissibility of eating them when cut off a living bull.

JB> According to the Tur Yoreh Deah Siman 62 and the RAMBAM Hilchot
JB> Ma'achalot Assurot, Perek 5, Halacha 7, although it's not strictly
JB> forbidden by the Torah, it has become customary to refrain from
JB> eating this (from a LIVE animal) since it SIMILAR to EVER MIN Ha'Chai.

Rambam is talking about a slaughtered animal whose testicles became
detached while it was still alive. If the animal is still alive,
or even if it's now slaughtered but the testicles were *removed*
(i.e. not just detached) while it was alive, they are ever min hachai
and forbidden (Ch 5, para 2).
--
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You can't shake hands with the devil and not get sulfur on your sleeve.
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David Maddison

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Dec 31, 1993, 11:06:13 PM12/31/93
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In article <2fuue7$n...@panix.com> yit...@panix.com (Istvan Kertesz) writes:


Also, another problem might be that it is halachically prohibited
to castrate an animal anyway.

David Maddison
Based in Melbourne, Australia

Dr. Stephen Dubin

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Jan 1, 1994, 7:31:57 PM1/1/94
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David Madison says that it is halachicly forbidden to castrate animal.
I would like to know the source or authority for this halachah. Also
does this apply only to animals to be slaughtered for food? Is it
permissible for draft animals? Is castration/neutering forbidden for
companion/pet animals? What is the halachah about spaying (including
ovariectomy) of female animals? Thanks.

Zev Sero

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Jan 1, 1994, 10:06:47 PM1/1/94
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dub...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Dr. Stephen Dubin) writes:

>David Madison says that it is halachicly forbidden to castrate animal.
>I would like to know the source or authority for this halachah. Also
>does this apply only to animals to be slaughtered for food? Is it

Vayikra 22:24; Rambam Issurei Bi'ah 16:10-13
It is forbidden to destroy the reproductive organs of humans,
animals or birds, whether kosher or not, and whether in Israel
or outside it...it is forbidden to give sterilising drugs to
a male, but it is permitted for a female to sterilise herself
with drugs...It is forbidden to get a gentile to castrate an
animal belonging to a Jew, but if the gentile did it without
permission, it is permitted to use the animal; however, if it
was done with the connivance of the Jew, he is penalised by
requiring him to sell it to someone else - he may even sell it
to his adult son, but not to his minor son.

There is a dispute whether the prohibition applies to gentiles as
well (Sanhedrin 56b, Bava Metziah 90b).


> Also permissible for draft animals?
as shown above, no.

> Is castration/neutering forbidden for companion/pet animals?

Yes.

> What is the halachah about spaying (including ovariectomy) of
> female animals? Thanks.

See above. But of course, you've got to be sensible, and this is
one area where otherwise frum people do a lot of blind-eye turning,
and convenient forgetfulness. I'm sure there are lots of people out
there who will display shock and horror, and some will even feel it,
but they are usually the ones who've never been owned by a cat.
Obviously if there is a way to do things within halacha that would be
much preferable, e.g. non-surgical sterilising of female cats if such
a thing is possible. When adopting a cat from a gentile, it clearly makes
sense to have them get it fixed first. If the kitten is too young,
perhaps they can merely `lend' it to you until it's old enough for the
operation (I think four months is generally accepted as old enough).
Also, it would seem to me that *if* the prohibition
does not extend to gentiles, it would be OK to give or sell the animal
to the vet before the surgery, and buy it back after, or else to
give it to another person beforehand, let them `arrange' for it to
be fixed, and then they can sell it back to the original owner.

bac...@vms.huji.ac.il

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Jan 2, 1994, 4:26:38 AM1/2/94
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Castration of animals is forbidden (see: Tosefta Makkot 5:6; RAMBAM Hilchot
Issurei Biah 16:10). The prohibition extends to ALL animals including birds
both kosher and nonkosher. Castration of females (which would include
ovariectomy in animals) is forbidden but one would not be punished (by judicial
flogging). This applies to SURGICAL intervention. With regards to what the
Talmud calls HAMASHKEH IKKARIN (castration via drugs) although this is
forbidden (to males) it's not a punishable offense. Women are permitted in
certain circumstances to have a TEMPORARY (chemical) castration but it seems
that the concept here dealt with a reversible process.

Josh
bac...@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

Warren Burstein

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Jan 3, 1994, 3:14:38 AM1/3/94
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>There is a dispute whether the prohibition applies to gentiles as
>well (Sanhedrin 56b, Bava Metziah 90b).

Just to avoid misunderstanding, the dispute is whether gentiles may
castrate animals.
--
/|/-\/-\ Yesh mandate.
|__/__/_/
|warren@
/ nysernet.org

Warren Burstein

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Jan 3, 1994, 3:17:40 AM1/3/94
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In <1994Jan2.0...@vms.huji.ac.il> bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:

>This applies to SURGICAL intervention. With regards to what the
>Talmud calls HAMASHKEH IKKARIN (castration via drugs) although this is
>forbidden (to males) it's not a punishable offense. Women are permitted in
>certain circumstances to have a TEMPORARY (chemical) castration but it seems
>that the concept here dealt with a reversible process.

The reisha was about castrating animals, but the seifa seems to be
about human birth control. BTW, I remember once reading that human
birth control pills work on cats, and the article recommended feeding
them to female strays as a form of feline population control. I have
not tried this myself although I have chased strays out of the
stairwell.

Ari Epstein

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Jan 12, 1994, 7:30:26 PM1/12/94
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In article <CJ1oD...@vaccine.worlds.com>, war...@vaccine.worlds.com (Warren Burstein) writes:
> BTW, I remember once reading that human
> birth control pills work on cats ...


They do indeed (or at any rate some of them do). We used to feed each of our
female cats one depo-provera (I don't know the dosage) per week, and it kept them
from going into heat. When we missed a few weeks, they went into heat
immediately, and then gave birth to small litters (one or two kittens). We
stopped giving them the pill after a couple kittens were stillborn, As I
remember, the pills were suggested to us by a vet, but had to be presecribed by a
regular Md.

Getting back to SCJ: We used this form of birth control because my mother didn't
want to live with an animal that had been sterilized permanently. Perhaps she was
carrying out the commandment not to sterilize animals without knowing exactly why
(just as some crypto-Jews light candlles, etc.).

Ari Epstein

Zev Sero

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Jan 14, 1994, 2:26:35 AM1/14/94
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a...@puddle.mit.edu (Ari Epstein) writes:

>> BTW, I remember once reading that human birth control pills work on cats

> They do indeed (or at any rate some of them do). We used to feed each of
> our female cats one depo-provera (I don't know the dosage) per week, and
> it kept them from going into heat.

Which leads to the image of the frum Jew going into the chemist to buy
birth control pills - `they're for my cat'. Yeah, right :-)


--
Zev Sero z...@asis.unimelb.edu.au I'm back!!!!

The will to be stupid is a very powerful force. - Miles Vorkosigan

Sruli Federman

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Jan 20, 1994, 10:46:24 PM1/20/94
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Warren Burstein (war...@vaccine.worlds.com) wrote:


I believe we poskin that gentiles may castrate animals.


Sruli Federman

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