Why are Hasidim speaking for all Orthodox?
Kenneth L. Menken
>> Halacha is a very cold logic that will enable one to be a NAVAL BIRSHUS
>> HATORAH... as per my previous example. It will provide the HETER for:
>> Howard Johnson's Ice Cream or Haagendaz Ice Cream...which are under
>> the supervision of a Kashruth Organization which does not emphasize that one
>> should be careful not to eat Chalav Stam....
I'm not going to respond as Dr. Backon did. Merely let me point out that
this is a totally unwarranted calumny of hundreds of thousands of G-d-fearing
Jews - to accuse them of being "naval birshus haTorah" because they rely
on the heter of Reish shel Kol B'nei Galusa, Moreinu V'Rabeinu HaRav HaGaon
Reb Moshe Feinstein, Z'chuso Yagen Aleinu [the permissive ruling of the
leader of all Torah Judaism, our master and teacher Rabbi Moshe Feinstein,
may his merits protect us]. [Rabbi Feinstein permitted us to rely upon
milk produced by gentiles as coming from only Kosher animals, because of
the fines imposed by the Government on anyone labeling milk of another
animal as "cow's milk."]
Yaakov Menken
men...@israel.nysernet.org
Project Genesis
yehuda silver
: BS"D
: In article <30d3jv$g...@bronze.lcs.mit.edu> se...@silver.lcs.mit.edu
: "Seth Gordon" writes:
: >Orthodox poskim (at least, the ones who are Ashkenazim and mitnagdim)
: >disagree about how careful you should be not to eat cholov stam.
: Did not R' Moshe (Feinstein) pasken that baz'man hazeh [in our day and
: age] the government supervision on milk is *tantamount* to sh'mira
: [proper Jewish supervision]?
: It seems to me that denouncing orthodox kashrus authorities for giving
: their hekhsher [seal of supervision] to products containing milk and
: milk derivatives is disingenious and aimed at discrediting those
: authorities, not for their supposed failings in kashrus supervision, but
: their stance against certain segments of Lubavitch.
: --
: Amos W
: ... am...@metallia.demon.co.uk ...
YOSEF_KAZEN
: It must be noted that I have seen products marked "O-K Cholov Stam".
: O-K is the kashrut agency affiliated with Chabad. Evidently they consider
Chabad does NOT provide Hechsherim.
There are Chasidim who are Mashgichim on CERTIAN products in behalf of
OU or OK and OK may be operated by a Lubavitcher but it has NOTHING to
do with Lubavitch per se.
--
YY
Yosef Yitzchok Kazen | E-Mail to:
Director of Activities | y...@lubavitch.chabad.org
YOSEF_KAZEN
: >In article <CsxyD...@dorsai.org>, y...@dorsai.org (YOSEF KAZEN) writes:
: >> Halacha is a very cold logic that will enable one to be a NAVAL BIRSHUS
: >> HATORAH... as per my previous example. It will provide the HETER for:
: >> Howard Johnson's Ice Cream or Haagendaz Ice Cream...which are under
: >> the supervision of a Kashruth Organization which does not emphasize
: >> that one should be careful not to eat Chalav Stam....
: I'm not going to respond as Dr. Backon did. Merely let me point out that
: this is a totally unwarranted calumny of hundreds of thousands of G-d-fearing
: Jews - to accuse them of being "naval birshus haTorah" because they rely
: on the heter of Reish shel Kol B'nei Galusa, Moreinu V'Rabeinu HaRav HaGaon
: Reb Moshe Feinstein, Z'chuso Yagen Aleinu [the permissive ruling of the
As Matthew Weiner wrote, in essence, Reb Moshe did NOT PROVIDE the
the heter for FRUM people. And I am referring to them. They ought to
know BETTER.
YOSEF_KAZEN
: : It seems to me that denouncing orthodox kashrus authorities for giving
: : their hekhsher [seal of supervision] to products containing milk and
: : milk derivatives is disingenious and aimed at discrediting those
: : authorities, not for their supposed failings in kashrus supervision, but
: : their stance against certain segments of Lubavitch.
I am not denouncing the Kashruth organizations. I am denouncing the
unfortunate fact that people who are learned will use the Heter of R.
Moshe to eat Ice Cream that is not Chalav Yisrael. Naval Birshus HaTorah
is the issue!
--
Y.Y. Kazen - Director of Activities - Chabad-Lubavitch in Cyberspace
y...@chabad.org - http://kesser.gte.com:7700/chabad/chabad.html
GOPHER: gopher lubavitch.chabad.org - WE WANT MOSHIACH NOW!!!
>>> Spreading Judaism via Computer Networks <<<
Matthew P Wiener
>Chabad does NOT provide Hechsherim.
Huh? They have their own Crown Heights hekhsher. KETER wines and
AHAVA cream cheese are made under it, if my memory is correct.
--
-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Matthew P Wiener
>I am not denouncing the Kashruth organizations. I am denouncing the
>unfortunate fact that people who are learned will use the Heter of R.
>Moshe
People who are learned. Perhaps they know more than you? I know a
few rabbis who received smicha from R Moshe, and their chalav stam
habits varied.
> to eat Ice Cream that is not Chalav Yisrael.
The Shulkhan Arukh permits chalav stam butter. I fail to see how
_anyone_ can get excited about chalav stam ice cream. Anyone, that
is, except a Lubavitcher.
David J. Greenberger
>As Matthew Weiner wrote, in essence, Reb Moshe did NOT PROVIDE the
>the heter for FRUM people. And I am referring to them. They ought to
>know BETTER.
He didn't? Then who did he provide the heter (leniency) for? Is there
any other halachic decision that Rav Moshe made for anyone other than frum
people?
--
David J. Greenberger 625 Theory Center Young Israel of Cornell, Room 102
Cornell University 106 West Avenue
Ithaca, NY 14853 Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 254-8790 (607) 256-2171 / 272-5810 fax
A. Engler Anderson
in the US and Israel, I have to agree with the Shliach in Cyberspace.
Chabad-Lubavitch qua Chabad-Lubavitch does not endorse foodstuffs.
There are certain "hekhsherim" given by individual Lubavitchers, in their
own personal or organizational capacity, or by batei din of local
Lubavitcher communities. But for some odd reason -- and it's odd given
the potential revenue source their 1,600 institutions world-wide are
foregoing -- Chabad/Lubavitch does not give or allow a "hekhsher" in
the name of the movement.
T
The examples you cite -- Ahava, Kesser -- are, if memory serves, supervised
by the Righteous Rabbinical Court of the Holy Community of Crown Heights
(Bedatz d'q.q. Crown Heights). Nowhere do the names Lubavitch or Chabad
appear on the label (though there is some mention on the Kesser wine label
to messianic redemption and speedy recovery).
For some reason, Lubavitch seems to make a distinction among its spiritual
functions (reserved to the Rebbe na/zatzal/hakam, and secondarily to the
"maspi'im -- "influencers"), its administrative and organizational functions
(reserved to the shluchim), and rabbinical functions (reserved to the
mara d'athra of each Lubavitch community, and the beth din).
Though I know Lubavitchers who consider every word the Rebbe uttered as
halakhah, the Rebbe himself frequently deferred to practicing halakhic
jurisconsults, sometimes posing questions to them and frequently referring
others to the local rabbi (as is evidenced by countless of his published
letters).
As to the Halav Yisrael issue, and noting Rabbi Feinstein's dispensation,
there are just theose certain things in which Lubavitchers are "mediaq,"
and it may date all the way back to the saqin me-lutash of the great
Hasidic-Mithnagdic schism, that is, the idea of Lubavitchers electing to
do more strictly than the greater dati 'olam.
Don't stop at Halav Yisrael -- what about "nivkah" chickens, Rabbeinu Tam
tefillin from age 13, etc. If you look carefully at any "hassidishe"
and particularly "gezhah" Lubavitcher household, there will be literally
scores of "humrahs.
-
A. Engler Anderson (Avraham Yaqov)
aen...@delphi.com
z002...@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us
Matthew P Wiener
>As to the Halav Yisrael issue, and noting Rabbi Feinstein's dispensation,
>there are just theose certain things in which Lubavitchers are "mediaq,"
>and it may date all the way back to the saqin me-lutash of the great
>Hasidic-Mithnagdic schism, that is, the idea of Lubavitchers electing to
>do more strictly than the greater dati 'olam.
That is their business. The annoyance expressed here is for the harsh
language regarding others who choose to be lenient.
>Don't stop at Halav Yisrael -- what about "nivkah" chickens, Rabbeinu Tam
>tefillin from age 13, etc. If you look carefully at any "hassidishe"
>and particularly "gezhah" Lubavitcher household, there will be literally
>scores of "humrahs.
I thought Lubavitch minhag was to put on R"T after marriage?
YOSEF_KAZEN
: In article <CtD3...@dorsai.org>, yyk@dorsai (YOSEF_KAZEN) writes:
: >Chabad does NOT provide Hechsherim.
: Huh? They have their own Crown Heights hekhsher. KETER wines and
: AHAVA cream cheese are made under it, if my memory is correct.
That is NOT Chabad or Lubavitch... You will NOT see either name on any
foods.
The above items you mention are by the Beth Din of Crown Hts., which also
does NOT carry the name Lubavitch or Chabad on it.
When the Beth Din was instituted one of the questions by Rabbi Eliezer
Zirkind was on the name for the Beth Din. The Rebbe did not allow the name
Chabad or Lubavitch to be used.
YOSEF_KAZEN
: habits varied.
To this very day?
Have you bothered to have a chat with them on this?
YOSEF_KAZEN
: The Shulkhan Arukh permits chalav stam butter.
Do you know WHY it allows BUTTER - (only butter)?
A. Engler Anderson
in the mid-1970s -- that unmarried yeshivah bachurim (excuse the
redundancy) would begin donning RTs after receiving a blessing from the
Rebbe to do so.
Then, I remember that there was some sort of general instruction (I think
from age 13 on) to put on RTs -- whether it was from a sichah or a letter
I can't recall. But I see Rabbi Kazen has the Sefer Ha-Minhagim of Chabad
on his gopher. Whatever the case it though, virtually all bachurim in
Tomchei Tmimim yeshivoth today don RTs (and you can tell from the longer
tefillin bags they carry about).
As to S"R and Rabad tefillin, I remember seeing that these are "minhag
beth ha-rav" but I also heard of certain elder Hasidim donning them
gard to the late Rabbi
Hodokov (Krinsky's old boss and the man who kept all the shluchim in
line for so many years, until he became ill ca. 1990).
A. Engler Anderson
aen...@delphi.com
YOSEF_KAZEN
: That is their business. The annoyance expressed here is for the harsh
: language regarding others who choose to be lenient.
Ever heard of Mitzvah Goreret Mitzvah?
I guess there's always good reason to be a bit stricter.....
YOSEF_KAZEN
: He didn't? Then who did he provide the heter (leniency) for? Is there
: any other halachic decision that Rav Moshe made for anyone other than frum
: people?
Tell me why do we say Selach Lanu three times a day in the Amida?
Len Moskowitz
A. Engler Anderson <aen...@delphi.com> wrote:
>For some reason, Lubavitch seems to make a distinction among its spiritual
>functions (reserved to the Rebbe na/zatzal/hakam, and secondarily to the
>"maspi'im -- "influencers"), its administrative and organizational functions
>(reserved to the shluchim), and rabbinical functions (reserved to the
>mara d'athra of each Lubavitch community, and the beth din).
When I tried to point this out Mr. Kazen said that Chabad and Lubavitch
are one and the same. To my knowledge, the internal Lubavitch and
outreach organizations are separate and distinct, though they may share
some personnel.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: ..... I know a few rabbis who received smicha from R Moshe, and
>: their chalav stam habits varied.
>To this very day?
Over the last few years.
>Have you bothered to have a chat with them on this?
Good grief. Where do you think I received this knowledge from? N'vuah??
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: The Shulkhan Arukh permits chalav stam butter.
>Do you know WHY it allows BUTTER -
Yes. Because the butter wouldn't be butter if you used camel's milk.
> (only butter)?
It didn't say anything about ice cream, neither to permit nor forbid.
Jack Love
>I guess there's always good reason to be a bit stricter.....
Well, I guess we could be very strict and solve all kashrut problems by
eating only shmurah matzah and kosher water all year, except for a few
days before Pesah so we could work up an appetite for the mitzva--in
which case we would eat Manishevitz matza which being treif wouldn't
count as matza.
--
________________________________________
Jack F. Love | Opinions expressed are mine alone.
| (Unless you happen to agree.)
YOSEF_KAZEN
Chabad and Lubavitch are the same. There is NO difference between the two!
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Good grief. Where do you think I received this knowledge from? N'vuah??
Who knows? Did you inquire as to whether a Yire Shamayim should refrain
from drinking Chalav Stam EVEN if there is a heter?
YOSEF_KAZEN
:
: Then, I remember that there was some sort of general instruction (I think
: from age 13 on) to put on RTs -- whether it was from a sichah or a letter
: I can't recall. But I see Rabbi Kazen has the Sefer Ha-Minhagim of Chabad
: on his gopher. Whatever the case it though, virtually all bachurim in
: Tomchei Tmimim yeshivoth today don RTs (and you can tell from the longer
: tefillin bags they carry about).
You can read more on the issue in the gopher lubavitch.chabad.org in the
section called Toras Menachem in item # 4 where the Rebbe repeats stories.
In one of the Footnotes the Rabbeinu Tam tefilin is discussed.
(Couldn't resist the Advertisement about our gopher;-)
YOSEF_KAZEN
: Well, I guess we could be very strict and solve all kashrut problems by
: eating only shmurah matzah and kosher water all year, except for a few
: days before Pesah so we could work up an appetite for the mitzva--in
: which case we would eat Manishevitz matza which being treif wouldn't
: count as matza.
A) The Torah does not expect us to act irrationally either!
In fact Shabbos and Yom Tov foods - ichlu mashmanim ushe-su mamtakim
is part of the Mitzvah!
B) Why is Maniscewith treif?
Matthew P Wiener
>: Good grief. Where do you think I received this knowledge from? N'vuah??
>Who knows?
Uh, it was not n'vuah. I simply knew them personally. There was no
call for your suggestion that I'm relaying inaccurate information. Deal
with reality, instead of looking for excuses.
> Did you inquire as to whether a Yire Shamayim should refrain
>from drinking Chalav Stam EVEN if there is a heter?
These rabbaim were certainly yireh shamayim.
Indeed, the one who was most lenient regarding chalav stam was a sofer
whom the local Lubavitchers relied on (not for milk, obviously). Perhaps
you should avoid this Chabad house--by your standards their sefer torah
is probably possul, since it's only been checked and fixed by a chalav
stam drinker.
Matthew P Wiener
>>AHAVA cream cheese are made under it, if my memory is correct.
>From my years as a "bachur" in Lubavitcher yeshivah more than a decade ago --
>in the US and Israel, I have to agree with the Shliach in Cyberspace.
>Chabad-Lubavitch qua Chabad-Lubavitch does not endorse foodstuffs.
That is correct. Chabad qua Chabad stays out of numerous issues. They
did not, for example, endorse anyone in the last NY mayoral election, but
we all know how they voted.
>There are certain "hekhsherim" given by individual Lubavitchers, in their
>own personal or organizational capacity, or by batei din of local
>Lubavitcher communities. But for some odd reason -- and it's odd given
>the potential revenue source their 1,600 institutions world-wide are
>foregoing -- Chabad/Lubavitch does not give or allow a "hekhsher" in
>the name of the movement.
It's not odd: they don't want to get involved with certain politics.
>The examples you cite -- Ahava, Kesser -- are, if memory serves, supervised
>by the Righteous Rabbinical Court of the Holy Community of Crown Heights
>(Bedatz d'q.q. Crown Heights). Nowhere do the names Lubavitch or Chabad
>appear on the label (though there is some mention on the Kesser wine label
>to messianic redemption and speedy recovery).
That sounds like what I remember.
The Lubavitchers I know who introduced me to these products told me they
were under Lubavitch hekhsher. (Who's left in Crown Heights anyway?)
Specifically, for Pesach, when they try to avoid prepared foods as much
as possible, the ones I knew on the East Coast got these brands. If their
fellow Chabadnik prepared them, they ate it.
(On the West Coast, they pretty much used any OU-P wine/grape juice, and
I don't recall seeing anyone eating dairies over Pesach. And they also
trusted BenZ's gefilte fish.)
This is the same as their boycott of DAGIM brand fish: sure it has some
national kashrus organization on the label, but everyone knows it's Satmar.
Seth Gordon
>
>I guess there's always good reason to be a bit stricter.....
Doesn't the Talmud say that anyone who only follows lenient rulings is an
apikoyres [unbeliever]?
And doesn't it *also* say that anyone who only follows *strict* rulings
is crazy?
--
seth gordon // se...@gnu.ai.mit.edu // standard disclaimer // pgp2-compatible
"Fear the government that fears your privacy."
--Mark Brown <mbr...@testsys.austin.ibm.com>
YOSEF_KAZEN
: > Did you inquire as to whether a Yire Shamayim should refrain
: >from drinking Chalav Stam EVEN if there is a heter?
: These rabbaim were certainly yireh shamayim.
You did not answer my question!
You told me your feeling or impression about the people!
: Indeed, the one who was most lenient regarding chalav stam was a sofer
: whom the local Lubavitchers relied on (not for milk, obviously). Perhaps
: you should avoid this Chabad house--by your standards their sefer torah
: is probably possul, since it's only been checked and fixed by a chalav
: stam drinker.
Why do you speak for me? Did I ask or mention anything about the people?
How do you know my standards?
Jack Love
>Jack Love (jl...@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu) wrote:
>A) The Torah does not expect us to act irrationally either!
> In fact Shabbos and Yom Tov foods - ichlu mashmanim ushe-su mamtakim
> is part of the Mitzvah!
>B) Why is Maniscewith treif?
You need a vacation.
A. Engler Anderson
>When I tried to point this out Mr. Kazen said that Chabad and Lubavitch
>are one and the same. To my knowledge, the internal Lubavitch and
>outreach organizations are separate and distinct, though they may share
>some personnel.
the "intellectual" school
of Chabad in US usage, and to the entire movement in Israeli usage.
Despite Rabbi Joseph Isaac Schneersohn's (6th Rebbe) Sefer Zikhronoth,
where he tells of some connection between the Bylorussion town of Lubavitch
and pre-Beshtian Hasidim, the Chabad movement did not become associated with
the town of Lubavitch until the second Rebbe (Dov Ber) moved there.
When the Alter Rebbe died (1813?), a schism broke out. He, the Alter Rebbe
(Schneur Zalman of Lyady) started preaching his Chabad method around the
time that Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk and Abraham Kalisker made 'aliyah,
leaving Schneur Zalman, in effect, in charge of the Byelorussian-Lithuanian
branch of Hasidim (from the talmedei ha-maggid), or in charge of the
collection for the Hasidic communities in Palestine.
The Alter Rebbe's leading disciple, Aaron of Staroselye (sp?) created a
court and taught there, while DovBer relocated to Lubavitch. There were
some doctrinal differences between the two, but the movement reunited
under the third Rebbe, Menachem Mendel (Zemah Zedeq) -- only to
experience another schism after his passing and the creation of multiple
courts of Chabad admorim.
As to Lubavitch "organization," I think many Lubavitchers will readily
admit that is an oxymoron. Lubavitchers tend to operate without the
usual hierarchial structure that most entities of this size would use.
Rather, from what I understand, each shliach -- armed with an appointment
or a blessing from the Rebbe -- undertakes to operate a particular
institution under the general oversight of the the Merkos L'Inyonei
Chinuch (Central Org. for Jewish Education) which is now run by Rabbi
Krinsky, or Lubavitch Youth Organization (headed by a powerful and
quiet fellow known as Dovid Raskin). There is also a Rabbi Kotlarsky
in New York who, I understand, collects financial and other reports
from the shluchim, as well as an entity known as "The Shluchim Office,"
which renders services to shluchim (brochures, technical assistance,
ready-made fundraising manuals, etc.).
Underneath this national administration -- whose authority seems to
be highly limited by virtue of the fact that they don't pay the
salaries of shluchim in the field -- is a group of regional directors.
This group includes Rabbis Shemtov on Philadelphia and Detroit,
Rabbi Cunin in California, among others. They have some say in the
location of shluchim and mosdoth in their fiefdoms, but also may
possess limited authority, especially over shluchim who raise their
own salaries and operating budgets. But they are EXTREMELY powerful
in the movement as a whole, if only because they are the ones who
bring the "gvirim" to the semi-annual Machne Israel Development
Fund events. They are often overlooked by journalists who like to
find power struggles to write about.
As to the rabbanim of Crown Heights, I believe they are paid by the
community through the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council
(Rabbi Shpeilman) or a similar community0wide collection. In Kfar
Habad, Israel, I believe the official rabbi's salary is paid through
there is clearly a distinction between
rabbanim and shluchim -- not only as to function, but also as to
where they get their bread buttered (halav Israel, no doubt).
aen...@delphi.com
A. Engler Anderson
>Chabad and Lubavitch are the same. There is NO difference between the two!
Lubavitch refer to two distinct entities. I was merely commenting on
rabbinical, administrative and outreach functions and haphazardly
used the two terms interchangably.
But to add to Rabbi Kazen's comment that "...there is NO difference..."
I believe it is correct to note that the two terms have differing
origins and connotations, as I noted in a post earlier today. Chabad
(though the preferred usage in Israel) tends to refer to the movement's
theoretical aspects ("The Chabad School"), while Lubavitch refers to
the Byelorussian town where the movement was centered for about 100
years, until 1915.
If course, this is being pedantic -- I admit. Today, however, the term
Lubavitch seems almost divorced from its geographic origins, as Chabad
seems divorced from its theoretical origins.
And I think many Lubavitchers consider Crown Heights/770 to be Lubavitch.
The main synagogue in 770 is officially known as "Beth Ha-Medrash
Lubavitch she-be-Lubavitch" even though it's thousands of miles away
from Belarus!
aen...@delphi.com
A. Engler Anderson
>were under Lubavitch hekhsher. (Who's left in Crown Heights anyway?)
within the Lubavitch "movement," people make a distinction between
what Lubavitch does as a "corporate" (I use this term loosly) entity --
the "movement" or "court" of the Rebbe -- and what individual Lubavitchers
and Lubavitcher organizations do.
Accordingly, the phrase "Lubavitcher shehitah" means that a Habadnik has
slaughtered the poor chicken or cow, under the aegis of a kashruth org.
that is run by LubavitchERS. But it does not mean that the Lubavitch
Movement has endorsed the dead animal in question.
And I think it is fair to say that most Lubavitcher would only consider
the Rebbe as valid authority for enunciating the Lubavitcher view on
anything (or perhaps his secretaries speaking at his direction), though
Agudath Hasidei Habad has now been vested with some authority in his
absence.
aen...@delphi.com
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote:
>: > Did you inquire as to whether a Yire Shamayim should refrain
>: >from drinking Chalav Stam EVEN if there is a heter?
>: These rabbaim were certainly yireh shamayim.
>You did not answer my question!
The question is answered by their actions.
>You told me your feeling or impression about the people!
Huh? I'm not feeding you feelings or impressions. Just basic facts
that contradict your imaginary form of Judaism.
>: Indeed, the one who was most lenient regarding chalav stam was a sofer
>: whom the local Lubavitchers relied on (not for milk, obviously). Perhaps
>: you should avoid this Chabad house--by your standards their sefer torah
>: is probably possul, since it's only been checked and fixed by a chalav
>: stam drinker.
>Why do you speak for me? Did I ask or mention anything about the people?
>How do you know my standards?
You've been posting your standards repeatedly. Either that, or you
have simply been engaged in hateful sick-in-the-head attacks.
Matthew P Wiener
>As to Lubavitch "organization," I think many Lubavitchers will readily
>admit that is an oxymoron.
Sometimes a Lubavitcher runs into someone interested in Judaism but wary
of "organized" religion. To which the response is always along the lines
of, "great, you've come to right place, we're very disorganized."
>Underneath this national administration -- whose authority seems to
>be highly limited by virtue of the fact that they don't pay the
>salaries of shluchim in the field -- is a group of regional directors.
>This group includes Rabbis Shemtov on Philadelphia and Detroit,
>Rabbi Cunin in California, among others.
Isn't R Cunin now in Moscow?
Well they don't pay the bills, and they let the locals run whatever
programs they want, they are still very influential over the long term.
Matthew P Wiener
>I see the problem. Maybe others don't quite see it the same way, but
>within the Lubavitch "movement," people make a distinction between
>what Lubavitch does as a "corporate" (I use this term loosly) entity --
>the "movement" or "court" of the Rebbe -- and what individual Lubavitchers
>and Lubavitcher organizations do.
Yes, they make that distinction.
They also ignore it quite frequently.
Albert Reingewirtz
Ever hear a better one " Col Ha missif gorea!" The total of your hossafot
must be now negate the whole Torah by so much giraon!
--
INTERNET: alb...@netlink.nix.com (Albert Reingewirtz)
UUCP: ...!ryptyde!netlink!albert
Network Information eXchange * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Albert Reingewirtz
The term "smicha" is a misuse of the term today. There is no such thing
as smicha anylonger. Smicha was people who knew and memorized the oral
law for the next generation in Antique Israel. By the way in the Talmudic
time Rabanim used to work for a living. They weren't schnorerim living on
the blood of any community.
Len Moskowitz
>: When I tried to point this out Mr. Kazen said that Chabad and Lubavitch
>: are one and the same. To my knowledge, the internal Lubavitch and
>: outreach organizations are separate and distinct, though they may share
>: some personnel.
>
>Chabad and Lubavitch are the same. There is NO difference between the
>two!
You're avoiding the question. Take a few minutes and describe the
organizational structure of the internal and outreach groups.
Are they identical or different?
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
YOSEF_KAZEN
: slaughtered the poor chicken or cow, under the aegis of a kashruth org.
: that is run by LubavitchERS. But it does not mean that the Lubavitch
: Movement has endorsed the dead animal in question.
I venture to say that the chicken or cow are not poor, but rather enriched,
by the fact that a Brocha was said over their meat, thus they were elevated
to a higher state from where they were.
To clarify and (I guess open another thread ;-):
The four basic entities : domem; tzome'ach; chai; medaber -
Inanimate, flora, fauna and human are all created to serve the next level
above them - and the human serves the Creator.
Thus, when a chicken or a cow is ritually slaughtered (by a Shochet who makes
a special blessing in the morning before he begins his days work) and later
on, the Koshering Process of checking the innards, soaking and salting the
meat is completed and a Jew cooks the meat and makes a blessing over the
food, that kosher animal has been elevated from where it was to a much
higher level, and is enriched, for it was able to be a catalyst for praising
G-d. And the strength derived from the nourishment enables the Jew to serve
G-d with increased vigor.
OK guys, the floor is open for discussion ;-)
YOSEF_KAZEN
: In article <CtH92...@dorsai.org> y...@dorsai.org (YOSEF_KAZEN) writes:
: >
: >I guess there's always good reason to be a bit stricter.....
: Doesn't the Talmud say that anyone who only follows lenient rulings is an
: apikoyres [unbeliever]?
: And doesn't it *also* say that anyone who only follows *strict* rulings
: is crazy?
Is drinking Chalav Yisrael and not Chalav Stam SO strict?
Len Moskowitz
>OK guys, the floor is open for discussion ;-)
What's there to discuss? This isn't chassidus. It's straight out of
the Ariza"l.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com
Seth Gordon
>
>Is drinking Chalav Yisrael and not Chalav Stam SO strict?
I suppose that depends on what other chmuras you've already accepted
on yourself, what the relative prices of Yisrael and Stam are in your
neighborhood, how much milk your household drinks, how much money you
make, and how much your ability to study Torah can be fortified by a
delicious pint of Haagen-Dazs ice cream.
--
seth gordon // se...@gnu.ai.mit.edu // standard disclaimer // pgp2-compatible
"It seems that the primary religious belief of many is not a belief in
the Bible, but a belief in belief in the Bible." --Taner Edis
A. Engler Anderson
charged him with the task of retreiving the Schneersohn collection of
books and manuscripts that was confiscated by the commies and now sits
in the Lenin or Russian National Library. He may be doing other things
there as well.
I've always been confused about the Lubavitcher setup in California
because you have Cunin and another fellow, Raitchick, who was sent to
CA by the previous Rebbe, Joseph Isaac Sch. What their relationship
is -- which tells the other what to do, etc -- seems a puzzlement.
aen...@delphi.com
A. Engler Anderson
>You're avoiding the question. Take a few minutes and describe the
>organizational structure of the internal and outreach groups.
>Are they identical or different?
time researching this exact issue and even collected IRS 990 disclosure
statements from a number of Lubavitch institutions.
While organizations exempt from federal income tax under Ch. 591(c)(3) are
required to file annual returns (990s) with the IRS, I recall that only
20 or 40 domestic Lubavitch organizations file. The remaining scores of
organizations either don't file, have no corporate existence unto
themselves (very common), or are classified as churches and are thereby
exempt from filing.
The 990s, except for the schedule of donors, are public information. Under
the Internal Revenue Code, each exempt organization must provide copies of
their 990s for public inspection at their main place of business, and there
are penalties for non-compliance. Furthermore, any person can request
to inspect or receive copies of an organization's filed 990s through the
regional IRS service center or the IRS' Freedom of Information Reading
Room in Washington. I recall that copies are $1 or so a page.
Of the Lubavitch institutions for which I saw 990s, many showed operating
deficits. The only ones I remember with anything resembling a healthy
financial picture were Merkos L'Inyonei Chinuch (the central educational
outreach organization), which had something on the order of $7 million
in fund balances, the United Lubavitcher Yeshivoth and the Rabbinical
College of America. Of course, it is entirely possible that some
locate an indentifying number. But it wasn't a healthy picture from
the records I obtained.
As to salaries, non-profits are supposed to disclose the salaries of their
top officers on the 990s, but many left this item blank. As of 1990-91,
when I made my records request, the salaries I saw were somewhat low.
Rabbi Moshe Herson, Dean of the Rabbinical College of America and Regional
Director for New Jersey reported a salary of around $45,000 per year from
the more powerful and
influential people in Lubavitch. In Miami, a 1/2-time salary of
$28,000 was reported for Rabbi Lipskar, the head of a large Lubavitch
prison ministry.
I don't think y'all need to put Rabbi Kazen on the spot and ask him to
answer questions about organizations and people for whom he has no
direct knowledge. Much of the info you seek is available though the IRS,
the state secretaries of state (which maintain the articles of incorp-
oration and lists of officers and directors), and the state agencies
which regulate charities. For the yeshivoth, much financial and
organizational info can be had from state department of education (for
post-secondary and under) in each of the states, and the U.S. Dept. of
Education (which requires extensive financial reporting in connection
with Title IV financial aid).
But from all I have seen, money does not flow from the individual
Chabad House to New York, at least from the operating budgets. If anything,
it is the central organization (Machne Israel) that makes occasional
operating grants to shluchim.
The exceptions to this are two: shluchim are encouraged to bring their
major financial contributors to the semi-annual meetings of the Machne
Israel Development Fund, headed by Rabbi Krinsky. For a $100,000
commmitment payable in $20,000 installments over 5 years (I recall)
donors at this level used to receive semi-private audiences with the
Rebbe, at least as of several years ago. But from all I have seen, this
is limited to the truly big gevirim who already give substantially to
their local Chabad institutions.
I had the fortune to get into one of the Machne Israel affairs a couple
years back to observe the goings on. Basically, it was a long luncheon
at which the donors were feted with audio-visual presentations, exhibits
and several hours of speeches. There were testimonials from businessmen
who told stories of having been in financial binds, but after pledging
some large sum to Machne Israel, their business fortunes reversed. It
did have the flavor of a haute-bouois tent revival.
After the luncheon, the donors proceeded to 770 (which was closed to
the general public for the afternoon) where they queued up for semi-
private audiences that were video-taped and presented later to the
donor as a souvenir.
The other instance where funds flow from local Chabad to New York is
the age-honored tradition of "ma'amad beth ha-rav." Every Lubavitcher
(the real fedora-topped ones anyway) contributes a set sum of money each
month intended to suppport the court of the Rebbe. Even yeshivah students
contribute something. This has gone on perhaps since the early days of
the movement some 2 centuries ago. Each community and yeshivah has
a gabbai appointed to collect and transmit these funds to the Rebbe.
t know if ma'amad is being collected since 4Tammuz.
Another exception that comes to mind -- and this doesn't really originate
with the Chabad Houses -- is the "dmao pan," sums of money (cash)
that are given to the Rebbe before the Yamim Noraim each year together
with a formulaic note (kvittel) asking the Rebbe to "awake supernal
mercies" on behalf of their souls (ana le='orar rahamim rabim 'avur
nishmath ploni ben ploni...).
aen...@delphi.com
A. Engler Anderson
>I venture to say that the chicken or cow are not poor, but rather enriched,
>by the fact that a Brocha was said over their meat, thus they were elevated
>to a higher state from where they were.
-
aen...@delphi.com
A. Engler Anderson
>What's there to discuss? This isn't chassidus. It's straight out of
>the Ariza"l.
is one that preoccupied the Rebbe in many of his sihot, etc.
The text that addresses this point most succinctly is the Rebbe's
"'Inyanah shel Torath ha_hasiduth," and is available in English
translation as "The Essence of Hasidus." (Kehot Publication Society)
Albert Reingewirtz
Chalav stam, Kasher girafs and now Buonos Aires and London. Which one has
importance to Jews? To Chabadnickim only the giraf and chalav "stam" When
are you going to talk about chalav mesubach? Have you no shame?
Matthew P Wiener
>and how much your ability to study Torah can be fortified by a
>delicious pint of Haagen-Dazs ice cream.
Summer or winter?
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener <wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu> writes:
>>Isn't R Cunin now in Moscow?
>He is the head shliach for California. I believe the Rebbe specifically
>charged him with the task of retreiving the Schneersohn collection of
>books and manuscripts that was confiscated by the commies and now sits
>in the Lenin or Russian National Library. He may be doing other things
>there as well.
Does that include running Chabad in California?
I know there were expectations that things would go quickly, but he's been
there for several years now, as law is still considered a novelty by the
new Russian government.
Len Moskowitz
A. Engler Anderson <aen...@delphi.com> wrote:
>I recall that the issue of what distinguishes Hasiduth from kabbalah
>is one that preoccupied the Rebbe in many of his sihot, etc.
>
>The text that addresses this point most succinctly is the Rebbe's
>"'Inyanah shel Torath ha_hasiduth," and is available in English
>translation as "The Essence of Hasidus." (Kehot Publication Society)
Would you or Mr. Kazen care to summarize? I'm certainly interested in
the subject and I'll try (b'li nedder) to round up a copy.
--
Len Moskowitz
mosk...@panix.com