Why be Jewish?
Roy Jose Lorr
Why be Jewish?
by Jonathan Rosenblum
Baltimore Jewish Times
November 1, 2002
Let’s call it Rosenblum’s Jewish Survival Self-Exam. It consists of only
one question: Explain why it is important that the Jewish people
continue to exist. The following answers receive no credit.
Because Jews are the source of such seminal ideas as monotheism, the
dignity of the individual, and equality before the law. While awareness
of Jewish contributions to civilization should be a source of pride, to
the extent that those ideas are today generally shared they provide no
reason for our continued existence.
Because Jews are disproportionately represented among Nobel Prize
winners. Yes, there do seem to be a lot of smart Jews. Perhaps it’s
genetic; perhaps attributable to our traditional reverence for learning.
But either way, there are a lot more smart gentiles. If our goal is
creating a gene pool of smart people, it makes no sense eugenically to
exclude the latter.
Because Jews are so warm-hearted and generous. Again, Jews do give to
charity at far higher rates than other ethnic groups. Our Sages say that
anyone lacking the quality of mercifulness is of doubtful Jewish origin.
But again, there are many fine, generous gentiles, who it makes no sense
to exclude from the society of ethical humanism.
Because Jews support the Democratic party at higher levels than other
ethnic groups, and are the most liberal voices in the party. If being
Jewish is synonymous with being a liberal Democrat, let us devote our
efforts directly to the Democratic party and forget Jewish institutional
life.
Jews must continue to exist in order to provide continued financial and
political support to Israel. This one begs the question. If there is no
reason for the Jewish people to continue as a identifiable entity, then
there is no particular reason why we should care about the continued
existence of a ``Jewish state."
Because there is no right or wrong way to be a Jew. That is the
conclusion of ``intermarriage expert" Kerry Olitzky, in his address to
the 2001 General Assembly of Jewish Federations. But if being Jewish can
mean anything or nothing at all, why be Jewish?
Any intelligent person, including those to whom these reasons are
habitually offered as arguments against intermarriage, immediately
recognizes them as empty. Yet I suspect that few of those taking the
Jewish Survival Self-Exam came up with anything better.
Judaism, the religion of the Jews, plays too small a part in the lives
of the vast majority of American Jews to itself provide a reason for
continued Jewish existence. The traditional belief that the Jewish
people have been chosen by G-d to reveal the potential for holiness in
life is meaningless for them. They do not belief in G-d and/or reject
the concept of chosenness as racist and/or know nothing of the laws of
the Torah and/or see nothing particularly elevating about those laws.
More than a third of American Jews describe religion as of no
importance. Of the 40% of American Jews who join synagogues at all, few
ever attend: Among Conservative Jews only 8% of third generation
Americans go to synagogue once a month, and among such Reform members
only 2.5%. Only 7% of American Jews describe the study of Jewish texts
as an important part of their Jewish identity, which leaves few outside
the Orthodox.
That is why American Jewry is disappearing before our eyes through
intermarriage and simple ennui. Despite the influx of more than 200,000
Jewish immigrants in the ‘90s, the most recent National Jewish
Population study found 300,000 fewer American Jews in 2000 than in 1990
-- a loss of half a million Jews in only a decade. And the rate of loss
will accelerate rapidly in coming decades due to the low fecundity and
aging of the Jewish population.
Every intermarriage represents the decision by a born Jew to raise his
or her children with a partner who has no reason to be concerned with
the perpetuation of the Jewish people. The results are precisely what
one would expect. Four-fifths of interfaith families incorporate
Christian practices, and 90% of the children of intermarriage will
themselves marry non-Jews.
Yet more than a few Jewish Dr. Strangeloves urge us to Stop Worrying and
Learn to Love Intermarriage. Taking a page from the Reform movement’s
adoption of patrilineal descent, they would cure the disappearance of
American Jewry through creative Jewish accounting.
Thus Gary Tobin celebrates the diffusion of drops of ``Jewish blood" and
cheerfully proclaims that 13.3 million Americans have some Jewish
``connection" – either a Jewish ancestor or a Jewish partner. Tobin goes
Enron and Worldcom one better in the creative accounting sweepstakes.
The latter treated expenses as long-term investments; he would treat
losses (i.e., intermarriage) as earnings. Yet even Tobin admits that
widespread intermarriage will only result in a hodgepodge of
religiously, racially, and behaviorally diverse individuals with no
sense of connection to one another and disconnected from Jewish life.
Several years ago, the loathsome Bernard Wasserstein wrote a paean to
intermarriage in the Jerusalem Post (``It’s a mitzva.") Sure Jews are
rapidly disappearing in the Diaspora, Wasserstein admitted, but why keep
whining about it. Other ethnic groups are gradually disappearing all the
time, without any commensurate breastbeating. Why not Jews?
Until we can provide our children with an answer to Wasserstein’s
challenge, we are doomed to the fate predicted by him.
cactus
We've been asking that question since the Second Temple was destroyed.
Many opted out. But we're still here.
Here's a new one, the bumblebee theory.
We all know about bumblebees, those thick lumbering insects with small
wings that go buzzing around gardens in the springtime. Aeronautical
engineers once determined that it was aerodynamically impossible for
bumblebees to fly, given their shape, their bulk and their wing size.
But the bumblebees never studied aeronautical engineering, so they fly
anyway.
Had they existed for the convenience of the engineers, they would have
walked everywhere. But guess what? They fly.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> Enron and Worldcom one better in the creative accounting sweepstakes.
> The latter treated expenses as long-term investments; he would treat
> losses (i.e., intermarriage) as earnings. Yet even Tobin admits that
> widespread intermarriage will only result in a hodgepodge of
> religiously, racially, and behaviorally diverse individuals with no
> sense of connection to one another and disconnected from Jewish life.
>
> Several years ago, the loathsome Bernard Wasserstein wrote a paean to
> intermarriage in the Jerusalem Post (``It's a mitzva.") Sure Jews are
> rapidly disappearing in the Diaspora, Wasserstein admitted, but why keep
> whining about it. Other ethnic groups are gradually disappearing all the
> time, without any commensurate breastbeating. Why not Jews?
>
> Until we can provide our children with an answer to Wasserstein's
> challenge, we are doomed to the fate predicted by him.
Roy,
Maybe you can answer something for me. I am an offspring of an
intermarriage. My parents were both atheists, but I became deeply
interested in both the old and new testaments. How do you explain
that? It would seem that some sort of redemption was wrought by the
intermarriage in my case.
But what I want to ask you is this: "Why are Jews so unanimous in
rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?" To me, it suggests that there is a
dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
must above all else conform to what others believe.
Peter
flores...@hotmail.com
Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>To me, it suggests that there is a
> dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> must above all else conform to what others believe.
Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1f268e91-92d9-44e3...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
snip
>
> Roy,
>
> Maybe you can answer something for me. I am an offspring of an
> intermarriage. My parents were both atheists, but I became deeply
> interested in both the old and new testaments. How do you explain
> that? It would seem that some sort of redemption was wrought by the
> intermarriage in my case.
>
> But what I want to ask you is this: "Why are Jews so unanimous in
> rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?" To me, it suggests that there is a
> dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> must above all else conform to what others believe.
----------
There is no dearth of "freethinking" in Jewish communities, and it's not
about conformity at all. It's simply that Jesus did not fulfill the
requirements for the Jewish messiah, the first requirement being to bring
peace on earth. Ask yourself: In what way did Jesus accomplish/fulfill the
requirements for the Jewish messiah? The concept of a messiah who dies to
atone for other people's sins is a Christian invention, not found in
Judaism, and not related to the Jewish messiah. Additionally, the concept of
the half-man, half-god is born straight out of Greek mythology. Such a
concept is completely anathema to the fundamental basis for Judaism which is
that God is one, not three, not multiples, certainly never a human being,
and that worship of anyone who isn't the one God is idolatry. Judaism
defines itself as belief in the one God and acceptance of the laws of the
torah. Christianity preaches that the torah is obsolete and has been
replaced by belief in Jesus. Obviously, the two beliefs cannot coexist as
part of the same religion. Christianity is the antithesis of Judaism and
never has been and never will be remotely related to Judaism or Jewish
belief.
HTH.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Wexford
> http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/528/
>
> Why be Jewish?
> by Jonathan Rosenblum
> Baltimore Jewish Times
> November 1, 2002
>
> Let's call it Rosenblum's Jewish Survival Self-Exam. It consists of only
> one question: Explain why it is important that the Jewish people
> continue to exist. The following answers receive no credit.
>
> Because Jews are the source of such seminal ideas as monotheism, the
> dignity of the individual, and equality before the law.
No, they're not. The religion is rife with cruelty and nonsense.
Judaism as practiced in the Old Testament disparaged women, allowed
for ownership slaves, and for all sorts of mean conduct.
> While awareness
> of Jewish contributions to civilization should be a source of pride, to
> the extent that those ideas are today generally shared they provide no
> reason for our continued existence.
Thank you so much for allowing the rest of the world to share your
ideas.
> Because Jews are disproportionately represented among Nobel Prize
> winners. Yes, there do seem to be a lot of smart Jews. Perhaps it's
> genetic; perhaps attributable to our traditional reverence for learning.
> But either way, there are a lot more smart gentiles. If our goal is
> creating a gene pool of smart people, it makes no sense eugenically to
> exclude the latter.
???? Uh... What the hell?
> Because Jews are so warm-hearted and generous. Again, Jews do give to
> charity at far higher rates than other ethnic groups. Our Sages say that
> anyone lacking the quality of mercifulness is of doubtful Jewish origin.
> But again, there are many fine, generous gentiles, who it makes no sense
> to exclude from the society of ethical humanism.
Thanks for mentioning the fine, generous gentiles. Do you know the
meaning of the word "patronizing?"
> Because Jews support the Democratic party at higher levels than other
> ethnic groups, and are the most liberal voices in the party. If being
> Jewish is synonymous with being a liberal Democrat, let us devote our
> efforts directly to the Democratic party and forget Jewish institutional
> life.
There are some substantial Jewish Republicans as well.
> Jews must continue to exist in order to provide continued financial and
> political support to Israel. This one begs the question. If there is no
> reason for the Jewish people to continue as a identifiable entity, then
> there is no particular reason why we should care about the continued
> existence of a ``Jewish state."
Unless, of course, you believe that any state that allows for
democracy, relatively free expression, and a generally enlightened
approach to government should be supported because it is intrinsically
good.
> Because there is no right or wrong way to be a Jew. That is the
> conclusion of ``intermarriage expert" Kerry Olitzky, in his address to
> the 2001 General Assembly of Jewish Federations. But if being Jewish can
> mean anything or nothing at all, why be Jewish?
Perhaps because you were born Jewish?
> Any intelligent person, including those to whom these reasons are
> habitually offered as arguments against intermarriage, immediately
> recognizes them as empty. Yet I suspect that few of those taking the
> Jewish Survival Self-Exam came up with anything better.
>
> Judaism, the religion of the Jews, plays too small a part in the lives
> of the vast majority of American Jews to itself provide a reason for
> continued Jewish existence.
No. You're wrong. This is some sort of orthodox screed, isn't it? An
argument that if you're a reformed Jew, you're not a real Jew.
> The traditional belief that the Jewish
> people have been chosen by G-d to reveal the potential for holiness in
> life is meaningless for them. They do not belief in G-d and/or reject
> the concept of chosenness as racist and/or know nothing of the laws of
> the Torah and/or see nothing particularly elevating about those laws.
No we're getting to it. If you don't wear side locks and lay on your
ass all day during the Sabbath, you're not a real Jew.
> More than a third of American Jews describe religion as of no
> importance. Of the 40% of American Jews who join synagogues at all, few
> ever attend: Among Conservative Jews only 8% of third generation
> Americans go to synagogue once a month, and among such Reform members
> only 2.5%. Only 7% of American Jews describe the study of Jewish texts
> as an important part of their Jewish identity, which leaves few outside
> the Orthodox.
What percentage attend Hebrew school and have a fairly thorough
education in Jewish ritual and belief? The other stats you cite are
probably true for Christians as well. So what? Why should more than 7%
spend time going over the ancient warblings of desert dwelling sheep
herders.
> That is why American Jewry is disappearing before our eyes through
> intermarriage and simple ennui. Despite the influx of more than 200,000
> Jewish immigrants in the '90s, the most recent National Jewish
> Population study found 300,000 fewer American Jews in 2000 than in 1990
> -- a loss of half a million Jews in only a decade. And the rate of loss
> will accelerate rapidly in coming decades due to the low fecundity and
> aging of the Jewish population.
Tell 'em to have more babies. Jews are good citizens. I'd like to see
more of them.
> Every intermarriage represents the decision by a born Jew to raise his
> or her children with a partner who has no reason to be concerned with
> the perpetuation of the Jewish people. The results are precisely what
> one would expect. Four-fifths of interfaith families incorporate
> Christian practices, and 90% of the children of intermarriage will
> themselves marry non-Jews.
Oh, so this is also a screed against inter-marriage.
> Yet more than a few Jewish Dr. Strangeloves urge us to Stop Worrying and
> Learn to Love Intermarriage. Taking a page from the Reform movement's
> adoption of patrilineal descent, they would cure the disappearance of
> American Jewry through creative Jewish accounting.
Why not? Why not allow patrilineal descent? Why must descent come
through the mother?
> Thus Gary Tobin celebrates the diffusion of drops of ``Jewish blood" and
> cheerfully proclaims that 13.3 million Americans have some Jewish
> ``connection" - either a Jewish ancestor or a Jewish partner. Tobin goes
> Enron and Worldcom one better in the creative accounting sweepstakes.
> The latter treated expenses as long-term investments; he would treat
> losses (i.e., intermarriage) as earnings. Yet even Tobin admits that
> widespread intermarriage will only result in a hodgepodge of
> religiously, racially, and behaviorally diverse individuals with no
> sense of connection to one another and disconnected from Jewish life.
Yes, well, you know that sort of thing happens in free societies.
Patrick Moynihan once moaned of the Irish, "There's none of us left."
It didn't hurt the Irish to intermarry with any and every one. Why, if
they hadn't there never would have been a Mohammed Ali.
> Several years ago, the loathsome Bernard Wasserstein wrote a paean to
> intermarriage in the Jerusalem Post (``It's a mitzva.") Sure Jews are
> rapidly disappearing in the Diaspora, Wasserstein admitted, but why keep
> whining about it. Other ethnic groups are gradually disappearing all the
> time, without any commensurate breastbeating. Why not Jews?
Good question.
> Until we can provide our children with an answer to Wasserstein's
> challenge, we are doomed to the fate predicted by him.
Doomed? Depends on your point of view, doesn't it?
Wexford
???????
> Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
Bullshit. Jesus was an observant Jew until he died. What other Jews
rejected was His (or His followers') claim to divinity, just as you
probably reject Sun Myoung Moon's similar claim.
> >To me, it suggests that there is a
> > dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> > must above all else conform to what others believe.
>
> Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
Cult? Judaism is a multi-faced religion with many different sects.
Learn something about it before you parade your ignorance.
flores...@hotmail.com
> <pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1f268e91-92d9-44e3...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
> snip
>
> > Roy,
>
> > Maybe you can answer something for me. I am an offspring of an
> > intermarriage. My parents were both atheists, but I became deeply
> > interested in both the old and new testaments. How do you explain
> > that? It would seem that some sort of redemption was wrought by the
> > intermarriage in my case.
>
> > But what I want to ask you is this: "Why are Jews so unanimous in
> > rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?" To me, it suggests that there is a
> > dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> > must above all else conform to what others believe.
>
> ----------
> There is no dearth of "freethinking" in Jewish communities, and it's not
> about conformity at all. It's simply that Jesus did not fulfill the
> requirements for the Jewish messiah, the first requirement being to bring
> peace on earth.
LOL. What is their Messiah going to do, give the Israelis
lobotomies?
That's the only way I can see to stop their wholesale killing.
Terry Cross
Sabbath? Kosher? Recreational stoning? Temple reverence?
Separation from Gentiles? Criticizing the priests?
Jesus was not "observant" in any of the things the Pharisees seemed to
think were important.
> What other Jews
> rejected was His (or His followers') claim to divinity, just as you
> probably reject Sun Myoung Moon's similar claim.
You have not read the Gospels in detail.
> > >To me, it suggests that there is a
> > > dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> > > must above all else conform to what others believe.
>
> > Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>
> Cult?
Yes, "cult." Are you so shallow you do not recognize the word?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult
cult -noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to
its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp.
as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing,
person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites
centering around their sacred symbols.
> Judaism is a multi-faced religion with many different sects.
> Learn something about it before you parade your ignorance.
As you have paraded yours?
TCross
flores...@hotmail.com
>
> > Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> > case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> > up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> > rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> > who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> > did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> > the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> > of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>
> Bullshit. Jesus was an observant Jew until he died. What other Jews
> rejected was His (or His followers') claim to divinity,
Learn to read, dumbass. I never said he wasn't a practicing Jew.
> > Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>
> Cult? Judaism is a multi-faced religion with many different sects.
> Learn something about it before you parade your ignorance.
Hey shit-for-brains, having a retention problem between gulps of
that rotgut? Here's YOUR opinion of Judaism (you just wrote it
minites ago), dimwit:
"No, they're not. The religion is rife with cruelty and nonsense.
Judaism as practiced in the Old Testament disparaged women, allowed
for ownership slaves, and for all sorts of mean conduct. "
Now get back into your corner turdbrain.
Wexford
>
> news:1f268e91-92d9-44e3...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>
> snip
>
> > Roy,
>
> > Maybe you can answer something for me. I am an offspring of an
> > intermarriage. My parents were both atheists, but I became deeply
> > interested in both the old and new testaments. How do you explain
> > that? It would seem that some sort of redemption was wrought by the
> > intermarriage in my case.
>
> > But what I want to ask you is this: "Why are Jews so unanimous in
> > rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?" To me, it suggests that there is a
> > dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> > must above all else conform to what others believe.
> ----------
> There is no dearth of "freethinking" in Jewish communities, and it's not
> about conformity at all. It's simply that Jesus did not fulfill the
> requirements for the Jewish messiah, the first requirement being to bring
> peace on earth. Ask yourself: In what way did Jesus accomplish/fulfill the
> requirements for the Jewish messiah? The concept of a messiah who dies to
> atone for other people's sins is a Christian invention, not found in
> Judaism, and not related to the Jewish messiah. Additionally, the concept of
> the half-man, half-god is born straight out of Greek mythology. Such a
> concept is completely anathema to the fundamental basis for Judaism which is
> that God is one, not three, not multiples, certainly never a human being,
> and that worship of anyone who isn't the one God is idolatry.
There are all sorts of metaphorical and theological answers to those
questions. I have to admit, I'm always astonished by religious people
(I'm responding from alt.atheism) who try to develop a logical
construct to argue an absurd issue. First, you can't even define "God"
without building in fatal conceptual conflicts. Secondly, the Christ
is as viable a form of divinity as any other. An omnipotent God can do
what He wants in whatever way He wants. He doesn't have to obey your
rules.
> Judaism
> defines itself as belief in the one God and acceptance of the laws of the
> torah. Christianity preaches that the torah is obsolete and has been
> replaced by belief in Jesus.
Judaism is by no means consistent in its approach to the law. Some
Jews reject the dietary prohibitions (they have -- or claim to have --
theological support for this) and almost everything else that's unique
to Judaism. You're arguing for the primacy of orthodox belief.
> Obviously, the two beliefs cannot coexist as
> part of the same religion. Christianity is the antithesis of Judaism and
> never has been and never will be remotely related to Judaism or Jewish
> belief.
Nonsense. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, not its antithesis.
I suppose, following your lines of argument, since in the United
States we don't stone adulterers, ban shrimp, nor allow for slavery,
American law is irretrievably opposed to the most sacred of Jewish
beliefs.
Wexford
> > Bullshit. Jesus was an observant Jew until he died.
>
> Sabbath? Kosher? Recreational stoning? Temple reverence?
> Separation from Gentiles? Criticizing the priests?
Read the New Testament. His words.
> Jesus was not "observant" in any of the things the Pharisees seemed to
> think were important.
He was observant enough. He considered thought the Pharisees
overemphasized their hard interpretations of law. That was His right
as a Jew and a Rabbi.
>
> > What other Jews
> > rejected was His (or His followers') claim to divinity, just as you
> > probably reject Sun Myoung Moon's similar claim.
>
> You have not read the Gospels in detail.
You apparently haven't read them at all.
>
> > > >To me, it suggests that there is a
> > > > dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> > > > must above all else conform to what others believe.
>
> > > Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>
> > Cult?
>
> Yes, "cult." Are you so shallow you do not recognize the word?
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult
> cult -noun
> 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to
> its rites and ceremonies.
> 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp.
> as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
> 3. the object of such devotion.
> 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing,
> person, ideal, etc.
> 5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites
> centering around their sacred symbols.
>
> > Judaism is a multi-faced religion with many different sects.
> > Learn something about it before you parade your ignorance.
>
> As you have paraded yours?
The word "cult" has several negative connotations. If you're not
familiar with them, you're either too stupid to continue conversing
with, or you're just playing stupid.
From http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm:
One of the most confusing and dangerous religious term is "Cult". The
word is derived from the French word "culte" which came from Latin
noun "cultus." The latter is related to the Latin verb "colere" which
means "to worship or give reverence to a deity." Thus, in its original
meaning, the term "cult" can be applied to any group of religious
believers: Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman
Catholics, Hindus or Muslims. However, the term has since been
assigned at least eight new and very different meanings. The original
meaning of "cult" remains positive; more recent definitions are
neutral, negative, or extremely negative:
Positive Meaning: Theological usage: Oxford English Dictionary
defined "cult" as: "worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine
being or beings"
"a particular form or system of religious worship; especially in
reference to its external rites and ceremonies"
devotion or homage to a particular person or thing."
This is the historical meaning of the word, but is rarely today heard
outside of religious circles. A reference to the "Cult of Mary"
appeared in a newspaper report on the Pope's 1999 visit to the
Americas. It simply means that the Pope devotes special attention to
the Virgin Mary.
Cultural usage: The word is often associated with cult films, cult
bands, or cult TV programs. Here, the term "cult" refers to a small
but devoted following of a movie, entertainment group or television
program. Avid supporters of Star Trek may be referred to as devoted
cultists.
Neutral Meanings: Sociological usage: A small religious group that
exists in a state of tension with the predominant religion. Hinduism
might be considered a cult in North America; Christianity might be
considered a cult in India.
Additional sociological usage: An innovative, fervent religious
group, as contrasted with more established and conventional sects and
denominations.
The Observer: An English newspaper seemed to use the term to refer to
any small religious group, no matter what its age or teachings. 1
General religious usage: A small, recently created, religious
organization which is often headed by a single charismatic leader and
is viewed as an spiritually innovative group. A cult in this sense may
simply be a new religious movement on its way to becoming a
denomination. The Christian religion, as it existed in 30 CE might be
considered a cult involving one leader and 12 or 70 devoted disciples
as followers. The Mormon denomination was started in the 19th century
by Joseph Smith and a few followers; it met this definition of "cult"
but has since grown to become an established denomination of about 15
million members.
Negative Meanings: Evangelical Christians and Counter-Cult Movement
(CCM) usage: They define a cult as any religious group which accepts
most but not all of the key historical Christian doctrines (e.g. the
divinity of Jesus, virgin birth, the Trinity, salvation by faith, not
works, etc.). The implication is that the cult's theology is invalid;
they teach heresy. Under this definition, The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons), Unification Church, Jehovah's
Witnesses, and many others would be cults. But the CCM would not
classify Wicca as such, because it is not associated with
Christianity. The earliest use of this meaning of the word "Cult" is
believed to be a 1938 book "The Chaos of the Cults" by J.K.
VanBaalen. On the other hand, new religious groups such as the
Mormons, Unification Church and Jehovah's Witnesses generally regard
themselves to be the true Christian church. They view all other
denominations as being in error. Thus, one group's true church is
another group's cult. One group's heresy is the other group's
orthodoxy.
Fundamentalist Christian usage: Some Fundamentalists would accept the
Evangelical definition of cult defined above. Others brand any
religious group which deviates from historical Protestant Christian
beliefs as a cult. This definition would include the LDS Church,
Wicca, mainline and liberal Christian denominations, Islam, Hinduism,
and all of the other religions of the world. The vast majority of
humanity would belong to cults, by this definition.
Anti-cult movement usage: The anti-cult movement (ACM) attempts to
raise public consciousness about what they see as dangerous and
authoritarian mind control cults and doomsday cults. Most do not care
about the faith group's theology. They target only what they see as
deceptive practices, and dangerous psychological pressure techniques,
such as brainwashing. The ACM appears to hold opinions about the
effectiveness of brainwashing that are not shared by the mental-health
community generally. They see mind control/doomsday cults as a
widespread social problem.
Very negative meaning: Popular, media usage: A cult is considered a
small, evil religious group, often with a single charismatic leader,
that engages in brainwashing and other mind control techniques,
believes that the end of the world is imminent, and collects large
amounts of weaponry in preparation for a massive war. The earliest use
of this meaning of the word is believed to have been in a 1965 book by
Walter Martin "The Kingdom of the Cults"
Wexford
> On Dec 3, 2:54 pm, Wexford <wrya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> > > case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> > > up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> > > rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> > > who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> > > did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> > > the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> > > of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>
> > Bullshit. Jesus was an observant Jew until he died. What other Jews
> > rejected was His (or His followers') claim to divinity,
>
> Learn to read, dumbass. I never said he wasn't a practicing Jew.
OK, fuckwit. But respond to the statement. Your claim was that he
pissed-off the religious establishment by attacking their customs.
That's not what put Him on the cross. His alleged blasphemy --
claiming to be God -- put him on the cross.
>
> > > Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>
> > Cult? Judaism is a multi-faced religion with many different sects.
> > Learn something about it before you parade your ignorance.
>
> Hey shit-for-brains, having a retention problem between gulps of
> that rotgut? Here's YOUR opinion of Judaism (you just wrote it
> minites ago), dimwit:
>
> "No, they're not. The religion is rife with cruelty and nonsense.
> Judaism as practiced in the Old Testament disparaged women, allowed
> for ownership slaves, and for all sorts of mean conduct. "
You do have problems with comprehension, don't you? "Judaism as
practiced in the Old Testament..." The religion did disparage women,
allowed for ownership of slaves, stonings and all sorts of horrid
conduct. As it's practiced today, it doesn't. I'm sure if you started
looking through all the Orthodox sects you'd find some nutcase who
still believes in all that. Hell. there are Christian groups who would
resurrect stoning as God's way.
No go play and let some other kid use the computer.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> <pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
Grant all that, Cindy, but you must know that there are abundant
arguments FOR Jesus being the Jewish Messiah. I am not an expert in
all that, but I have seen the arguments. Your account might explain
why 90% of Jews would reject Jesus, but it would seem that the actual
figure is closer to 100%, accept for a tiny cult called Jews for
Jesus. That does not compute. The only explanations seem to be
either some force of conformity operating on the human level or else a
universal collective mind operating on a higher level. Fundamentalist
Christians speak like that, of being in a single mind, and I wonder if
something like that operates in the Jewish communities.
flores...@hotmail.com
> On Dec 3, 3:09 pm, floresriki...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> > > > case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> > > > up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> > > > rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> > > > who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> > > > did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> > > > the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> > > > of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>
> > > Bullshit. Jesus was an observant Jew until he died. What other Jews
> > > rejected was His (or His followers') claim to divinity,
>
> > Learn to read, dumbass. I never said he wasn't a practicing Jew.
>
> OK, fuckwit. But respond to the statement. Your claim was that he
> pissed-off the religious establishment by attacking their customs.
> That's not what put Him on the cross. His alleged blasphemy --
> claiming to be God -- put him on the cross.
IOW, the Jews rejected JC as their Messiah, so WTF are you
babbling about? Re-read the above that you originally (and
pathetically) responded to, then try again, shit-for-brains.
Hint: JC didn't care much for their designs on ruling the world.
> > > Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>
> > > Cult? Judaism is a multi-faced religion with many different sects.
> > > Learn something about it before you parade your ignorance.
>
> > Hey shit-for-brains, having a retention problem between gulps of
> > that rotgut? Here's YOUR opinion of Judaism (you just wrote it
> > minites ago), dimwit:
>
> > "No, they're not. The religion is rife with cruelty and nonsense.
> > Judaism as practiced in the Old Testament disparaged women, allowed
> > for ownership slaves, and for all sorts of mean conduct. "
>
> You do have problems with comprehension, don't you? "Judaism as
> practiced in the Old Testament..." The religion did disparage women,
> allowed for ownership of slaves, stonings and all sorts of horrid
> conduct. As it's practiced today, it doesn't.
It is still the same bigoted and racist nonsense that it always was.
Only dimwits like you buy the modern dress.
flores...@hotmail.com
>
> > > ???????
>
> > > > Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> > > > case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> > > > up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> > > > rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> > > > who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> > > > did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> > > > the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> > > > of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>
> ?????
Uh, dumbass, have you already forgotten that you've read and responded
to this before? What's with the question marks here? Sheeeesh...
> The word "cult" has several negative connotations.
As does Zionism.
> If you're not
> familiar with them, you're either too stupid to continue conversing
> with, or you're just playing stupid.
>
> From http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm:
I'm impressed with the source. For Saturnalia, maybe you could buy
yourself an intelligence enhancement chip at WalMart. $29.99.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1f9b9e89-2afd-46b3...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Not Jewish arguments. Only Christian arguments.
>I am not an expert in
> all that, but I have seen the arguments. Your account might explain
> why 90% of Jews would reject Jesus, but it would seem that the actual
> figure is closer to 100%, accept for a tiny cult called Jews for
> Jesus.
"Jews for Jesus" is the name of a specific organization. It is not Jewish.
The organization is an arm of the Southern Baptists who are specially
coached and trained to pretend to be Jewish in order to trick ignorant Jews
into converting to Christianity by claiming the Jews are not converting out
of Judaism but instead becoming "completed" Jews or "fulfilled" Jews. They
sponsor functions like "Shabbat dinners" or "Passover seders" that bear some
superficial resemblance to the Jewish dinner/holiday of the same name but
are twisted and turned to incorporate Jesus. Any Jews who are convinced to
become "completed" Jews (sic) are subsequently introduced into mainstream
Christian churches as quickly as possible (probably to decrease the
likelihood that they will change their minds).
>That does not compute. The only explanations seem to be
> either some force of conformity operating on the human level or else a
> universal collective mind operating on a higher level. Fundamentalist
> Christians speak like that, of being in a single mind, and I wonder if
> something like that operates in the Jewish communities.
Historically, thousands, maybe millions of Jews have been martyred because
we refused to convert to Christianity. The typical pattern was first try to
convert the Jews by persuasion, and then when we wouldn't cooperate, force
was used (torture, expulsion and in many cases death). The Christian bible
is an antisemitic document and has spawned ongoing accusations of
"Christ-killer" over the centuries. This "Christ-killer" label has provided
an excuse for countless numbers of pogroms across the centuries. Not that
this is the reason Jews won't convert to Christianity (as I said there are
obvious theological reasons), but why would Jews be interested in
Christianity based on the antisemitic history alone?
Also, we Jews are very tenacious about wanting to preserve our religion and
heritage. We have a vested interest in ensuring the continuity of the Jewish
people. Every time a Jew converts to Christianity, not only is the Jew lost
but so are his children and grandchildren.
We have our religion, our God, and our torah. They have served us well for
the last 4000+ years. We have no reason whatsoever to want to trash our
religion, our nationality, our culture, our heritage for another religion, a
foreign belief system. Not to mention the fact that this whole messiah thing
is a relatively insignificant part of Judaism in the first place. Our main
focus is God and the torah, not "the messiah." Speaking for myself, I
couldn't care less about "the messiah."
But the main thing, as I said, is that there are NO Jewish arguments for
Jesus as messiah, only Christian arguments. Why don't you look at the 300+
so called "Christian prophecies" and one by one put them back into context
in the Jewish bible, and I can guarantee you will find that once you look at
them in context, you will see that many of them could be referring to people
other than Jesus. Try putting in someone else's name, and you'll see. You
have to have the belief in Jesus *first* before you can believe that any
prophecies in the Jewish bible point to him. It doesn't work the other way
around. Jews didn't buy into this foreign religion 2000 years ago, and we
don't buy into it now.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
ElParedon
"Roy Jose Lorr" <Ken...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:tcWdna3Ph8NWaM7a...@comcast.com...
> http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/528/
>
> Why be Jewish?
> by Jonathan Rosenblum
> Baltimore Jewish Times
> November 1, 2002
>
> Let’s call it Rosenblum’s Jewish Survival Self-Exam. It consists of only
> one question: Explain why it is important that the Jewish people continue
> to exist. The following answers receive no credit.
>
> Because Jews are the source of such seminal ideas as monotheism, the
> dignity of the individual, and equality before the law. While awareness of
> Jewish contributions to civilization should be a source of pride, to the
> extent that those ideas are today generally shared they provide no reason
> for our continued existence.
>
> Because Jews are disproportionately represented among Nobel Prize winners.
CRAP! NOBEL PRIZES ARE AWARDED ACORDING TO NATIONAL ORIGIN, NOT ACCORDING TO
RELIGION. JUDAISM IS NOT A NATIONALITY NOR A RACE
Terry Cross
Oh, really? Is that the meaning of all that fulmination in Matthew
23:
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You
clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of
greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of
the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You
are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on
the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In
the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on
the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You
build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we
would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the
prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the
descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the
measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being
condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men
and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will
flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon
you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth,
from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of
Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell
you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
> That was His right
> as a Jew and a Rabbi.
The Pharisees stated that Jesus had no training and no schooling. How
could he be a rabbi?
...
> > > > Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>
> > > Cult?
>
> > Yes, "cult." Are you so shallow you do not recognize the word?
>
> >http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult
> > cult -noun
> > 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to
> > its rites and ceremonies.
> > 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp.
> > as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
> > 3. the object of such devotion.
> > 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing,
> > person, ideal, etc.
> > 5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites
> > centering around their sacred symbols.
>
> > > Judaism is a multi-faced religion with many different sects.
> > > Learn something about it before you parade your ignorance.
>
> > As you have paraded yours?
>
> The word "cult" has several negative connotations. If you're not
> familiar with them, you're either too stupid to continue conversing
> with, or you're just playing stupid.
>
> Fromhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm:
>
> One of the most confusing and dangerous religious term is "Cult". The
> word is derived from the French word "culte" which came from Latin
> noun "cultus." The latter is related to the ...
That is the opinion of the Israeli lobby, the same who formed the
"Cult Awareness Network" to suppress and harass Christians with
kidnapping and torture. But what has this to do with the English
language?
TCross
flores...@hotmail.com
>
> "Jews for Jesus" is the name of a specific organization. It is not Jewish.
> The organization is an arm of the Southern Baptists who are specially
> coached and trained to pretend to be Jewish in order to trick ignorant Jews
> into converting to Christianity by claiming the Jews are not converting out
> of Judaism but instead becoming "completed" Jews or "fulfilled" Jews.
Any credible cites for this claim?
<snip>
> We have our religion, our God, and our torah. They have served us well for
> the last 4000+ years. We have no reason whatsoever to want to trash our
> religion, our nationality, our culture, our heritage for another religion, a
> foreign belief system.
So explain why you want to trash the Christians' (esp. the Anglo
Christians)
culture, heritage, religion.....never mind, don't bother with the BS.
But as far as you God "serving" you well. If that's the case, then
why play the eternal victim role? Or did God tell you to do that?
> Not to mention the fact that this whole messiah thing
> is a relatively insignificant part of Judaism in the first place. Our main
> focus is God and the torah, not "the messiah." Speaking for myself, I
> couldn't care less about "the messiah."
Maybe because you know he ain't gonna show, ever.
> It doesn't work the other way
> around. Jews didn't buy into this foreign religion 2000 years ago, and we
> don't buy into it now.
Well, I think we all know that by now. You don't buy into any
religion that
doesn't teach that you are **chosen** and sooooo special and deserve
to rule and oppress people who aren't of your tribe.
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
news:tcWdna3Ph8NWaM7a...@comcast.com:
> http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/528/
>
Why are you cross posting flame bait to a.a? Get lost Lorr
Klazmon
cactus
This guy is a known virulent antisemite. He lies about Jews, mainly out
of hostility and total ignorance. He has about as much credibility on
the subject of Judaism as he does on underwater basketweaving. You have
sadly given him an opportunity to come out from under his cowpie and
spew hatred.
>
>> To me, it suggests that there is a
>> dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
>> must above all else conform to what others believe.
How would you know, you ignorant, hatefilled bigot?
>
> Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
How would you know, you ignorant, hatefilled bigot?
cactus
That's because you are a blind and stupid bigot.
cactus
Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Santeria, among
others, meet this criterion.
> 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp.
> as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
This is not Judaism - it's Christianity with its veneration of Jesus of
Nazareth.
> 3. the object of such devotion.
You mean like Jesus of Nazareth?
> 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing,
> person, ideal, etc.
Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Santeria, among
others, meet this criterion.
> 5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites
> centering around their sacred symbols.
Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Santeria, among
others, meet this criterion.
cactus
If you weren't such an ignoramus, you would know that Judaism, like all
vibrant religions, adapts to the times.
>
> Now get back into your corner turdbrain.
Applies to you more than your respondents.
flores...@hotmail.com
>
> > Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> > case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> > up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> > rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> > who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> > did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> > the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> > of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>
> This guy is a known virulent antisemite. He lies about Jews, mainly out
> of hostility and total ignorance.
You are a lying sack of shit.
> He has about as much credibility on
> the subject of Judaism as he does on underwater basketweaving. You have
> sadly given him an opportunity to come out from under his cowpie and
> spew hatred.
So, point out from what I wrote above where the inaccuracies are...
> >> To me, it suggests that there is a
> >> dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> >> must above all else conform to what others believe.
>
> How would you know, you ignorant, hatefilled bigot?
You are now responding to someone else, moron. Then again,
anyone who criticizes you bigots is "hatefilled." Ho-hum.
> > Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>
> How would you know, you ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
You are the ignorant, hatefulled bigot, as has been pointed out.
flores...@hotmail.com
LOL! It is not anything from me that makes the IDF kill innocent
people
by the trainload, bright boy. Face it, you support terror, bigotry,
and
murder, along with the destruction of America.
cactus
None whatsoever in Tanach. Every single alleged argument is based on
mistranslations, misquotes, quotes taken out of context, or invocations
of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
I am not an expert in
> all that, but I have seen the arguments.
This was copied from
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html
Here is why Jesus is not considered the Messiah:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jewish Messiah : The Criteria
The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous
biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being -
without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain
changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be
acknowledged as "The Messiah".
First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you,
whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall
you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart
from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his
son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep
with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue
from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a
house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom
forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel
-"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the
outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the
four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my
sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.."
(Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their
swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation
shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war
anymore." (Micah 4:3)
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's
commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall
all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to
observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and
serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to
another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship
before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37
verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all
have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My
statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have
given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they
shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's
children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever.
Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an
everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will
multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them
forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their
G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am
the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst
of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he
cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us
that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your account might explain
> why 90% of Jews would reject Jesus, but it would seem that the actual
> figure is closer to 100%, accept for a tiny cult called Jews for
> Jesus.
The so-called "Jews for Jesus" are not Jews because they have publicly
violated the Second Commandment, thus rejecting their Judaism. Most of
their leaders are evangelical Christian ministers.
That does not compute. The only explanations seem to be
> either some force of conformity operating on the human level or else a
> universal collective mind operating on a higher level. Fundamentalist
> Christians speak like that, of being in a single mind, and I wonder if
> something like that operates in the Jewish communities.
Not at all. It's just so obvious to Jews that Jesus of Nazareth is the
first and greatest of the false messiahs, that no one argues the matter.
Jews who want to believe that become Christians.
cactus
>
> Maybe you can answer something for me. I am an offspring of an
> intermarriage. My parents were both atheists, but I became deeply
> interested in both the old and new testaments. How do you explain
> that? It would seem that some sort of redemption was wrought by the
> intermarriage in my case.
>
> But what I want to ask you is this: "Why are Jews so unanimous in
> rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?" To me, it suggests that there is a
> dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
> must above all else conform to what others believe.
>
It's just so obvious to Jews that Jesus of Nazareth is the first and
greatest of the false messiahs, that no one argues the matter. Jews who
want to believe that become Christians.
Here are the reasons, copied from
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-criteria.html
Here is why the Jews do not consider Jesus to be the Messiah:
HTH
cactus
The so-called "reformed Cult Awareness Network" is "operated by the
Foundation for Religious Freedom." According to the IRS/Scientology
agreement this foundation is a "Scientology-related" entity.
See http://www.rickross.com/groups/newcan.html for further information.
cactus
determined by the Nobel Prize Committee, in the categories.
cactus
How many do you own? Hint: They don't work.
cactus
Terry Cross
That was not the original nature of the Network when it operated as a
militant anti-Christian, anti-religious thug haven. CAN was a
virulent force against Scientology during the 1980s. Rick Ross
himself is a poor source of information, having himself been convicted
of kidnapping in service of CAN.
CAN was on of the organizations that guided the propaganda to destroy
the Branch Davidians.
TCross
cactus
> On Dec 3, 4:53 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>>> Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
>>> case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
>>> up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
>>> rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
>>> who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
>>> did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
>>> the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
>>> of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>> This guy is a known virulent antisemite. He lies about Jews, mainly out
>> of hostility and total ignorance.
>
> You are a lying sack of shit.
Schoolyard invective is not a viable response. Refute me or STFU.
>
>> He has about as much credibility on
>> the subject of Judaism as he does on underwater basketweaving. You have
>> sadly given him an opportunity to come out from under his cowpie and
>> spew hatred.
>
> So, point out from what I wrote above where the inaccuracies are...
We're not inbred.
We did not accept your Jesus of Nazareth because he did not meet the
criteria for the Messiah as set out in Tanach.
Jesus apparently did throw moneychangers out of the Temple, but IIRC
Hosea did that before him. He merely followed precedent. But no Jew
complains about Jesus because he did that. If there are complaints about
him, it's that he was a heretic and an apostate.
We do complain about antisemitic bigots such as yourself. People like
you give Christianity a bad name.
>
>>>> To me, it suggests that there is a
>>>> dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities, and people feel they
>>>> must above all else conform to what others believe.
>> How would you know, you ignorant, hatefilled bigot?
>
> You are now responding to someone else, moron. Then again,
> anyone who criticizes you bigots is "hatefilled." Ho-hum.
I guess I did. But you are still an ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
>
>>> Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>> How would you know, you ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
>
> You are the ignorant, hatefulled bigot, as has been pointed out.
Schoolyard invective is not a viable response. Refute me or STFU.
cactus
You support the ones who do, and you would not be complaining were the
situation reversed.
Face it, you support terror, bigotry,
> and
> murder,
No, I do not like what is going on at all. I'm like a great many
Israelis in that regard. There will be a fair and equitable peace in
the region as soon as the bigots, such as yourself, and the fanatical
Muslims back off.
along with the destruction of America.
Ooh, you sound like a McCartyist antisemitic bigot. FOAD.
cactus
> On Dec 3, 2:23 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>> Terry Cross wrote:
>>> On Dec 3, 12:20 pm, Wexford <wrya...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The word "cult" has several negative connotations. If you're not
>>>> familiar with them, you're either too stupid to continue conversing
>>>> with, or you're just playing stupid.
>>>> Fromhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm:
>>>> One of the most confusing and dangerous religious term is "Cult". The
>>>> word is derived from the French word "culte" which came from Latin
>>>> noun "cultus." The latter is related to the ...
>>> That is the opinion of the Israeli lobby, the same who formed the
>>> "Cult Awareness Network" to suppress and harass Christians with
>>> kidnapping and torture.
>> The so-called "reformed Cult Awareness Network" is "operated by the
>> Foundation for Religious Freedom." According to the IRS/Scientology
>> agreement this foundation is a "Scientology-related" entity.
>>
>> Seehttp://www.rickross.com/groups/newcan.htmlfor further information.
>
> That was not the original nature of the Network when it operated as a
> militant anti-Christian, anti-religious thug haven.
Citations?
CAN was a
> virulent force against Scientology during the 1980s.
Citations?
Rick Ross
> himself is a poor source of information, having himself been convicted
> of kidnapping in service of CAN.
>
> CAN was on of the organizations that guided the propaganda to destroy
> the Branch Davidians.
I've met some of these guys at booths. They told me that Judaism and
Islam are "cults." Sort of wrecks their credibility.
>
> TCross
fla...@verizon.net
I can't think of a single thing to add, but yasher koach!!
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 3-Dec-2007, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> flores...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 3:20 pm, Wexford <wrya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>> ???????
> >>>>> Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> >>>>> case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> >>>>> up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> >>>>> rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> >>>>> who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> >>>>> did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> >>>>> the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> >>>>> of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
> >> ?????
> >
> > Uh, dumbass, have you already forgotten that you've read and responded
> > to this before? What's with the question marks here? Sheeeesh...
> >
> >> The word "cult" has several negative connotations.
> >
> > As does Zionism.
Only according to those among whom "Judaism", "woman",
"non-white" also have negative connotations - IOW, not really.
> >
> >> If you're not
> >> familiar with them, you're either too stupid to continue conversing
> >> with, or you're just playing stupid.
> >>
> >> From http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm:
> >
> > I'm impressed with the source. For Saturnalia, maybe you could buy
> > yourself an intelligence enhancement chip at WalMart. $29.99.
>
> How many do you own? Hint: They don't work.
I bet I know where he's sticking them, too.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 3-Dec-2007, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> flores...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > "No, they're not. The religion is rife with cruelty and nonsense.
> > Judaism as practiced in the Old Testament disparaged women, allowed
> > for ownership slaves, and for all sorts of mean conduct. "
>
> If you weren't such an ignoramus, you would know that Judaism, like all
> vibrant religions, adapts to the times.
And if he wasn't such a sickening liar, he'd know that there are
those who know just how brainless those lies are.
Susn
fla...@verizon.net
On 3-Dec-2007, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> > Roy,
> >
> > Maybe you can answer something for me. I am an offspring of an
> > intermarriage. My parents were both atheists, but I became deeply
> > interested in both the old and new testaments. How do you explain
> > that? It would seem that some sort of redemption was wrought by the
> > intermarriage in my case.
> >
> > But what I want to ask you is this: "Why are Jews so unanimous in
> > rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?" To me, it suggests that there is a
> > dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities,
No way is this guy anything but a fundy troll.
No way do people raised by atheists jump to the only stupid
conclusion in response to a question like this, especially since
it could be equally leveled at the atheist community.
> > and people feel they
> > must above all else conform to what others believe.
> >
> > Peter
>
> It's just so obvious to Jews that Jesus of Nazareth is the first and
> greatest of the false messiahs, that no one argues the matter.
It's just suck a rock-bottom thing.
Like all Jews will tell you that Shabbos is holy - they will
just disagree on what "holy" means - so do all jews know
that Jesus was not Moshiach.
Susan
fla...@verizon.net
On 3-Dec-2007, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> flores...@hotmail.com wrote:
[snip most of lies about Jesus, Jews, etc.]
> > It is still the same bigoted and racist nonsense that it always was.
> > Only dimwits like you buy the modern dress.
> >
> And only bigoted dimwits like you don't.
& it's only bigoted dimwits who tell such lies as he did, above.
Susan
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> Here is why the Jews do not consider Jesus to be the Messiah:
>
> HTH
If there were viable Christian sects, then what you say might make
sense, that a Jew believing in Jesus would just become a Christian.
But given the fact that most Christians are rightwing nutjobs, I find
that explanation less plausible. If a Jew did want to believe that
Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, he would truly be caught between the
rock and the hard place.
Secondly, I don't see how you can take these prophecies so literally
and so absolutely. They were written down by men who tried their best
to grasp what G-D was trying to convey to them. Or do you believe
that G-D literally dictated these prophecies? Secondly, it seems
quite unclear from the Torah exactly who G-D is. It says first that
the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and then somehow another
voice announces that his name is I AM (Ehyeh) or I AM THAT I AM (Ehyeh
Asher Ehyeh). On the other hand, Genesis would seem to indicate that
G-D is the Creator of this world, known in Hinduism as Brahma. To my
knowledge I AM THAT I AM is not the same person as Brahma, the Creator
of this world. So, given all that, is it possible that different
prophets heard different Gods or, to put it less objectionably,
different aspects of G-D.
I think it is quite clear that the Heavenly Father of Jesus is NOT the
same as the aspect of G-D that spoke through some of the prophets.
Jesus identified with some of the old prophets and prophecies, but
countermanded others of them, especially those that seem harsh and
judgmental to us as modern civilized men, like stoning whores to
death, for instance.
The point I am trying to make is that religion is not like mundane
subjects, which can be rather cut and dry. When humans try to
comprehend G-D, it is hard to even know where to start. For the most
part it is all unknown, or else known only through mystic symbolism
and/or spiritual experience. To take the scriptures so literally and
absolutely as you do is certainly not the only possible attitude
toward them.
Given all that, it still seems like a very unusual sociological
phenomenon to me that Jews so uniformly reject Jesus. I cannot think
of any other example of such uniform belief among a people, unless it
be coerced, such as in Stalinist Russia, where those who disagreed
were sent to Siberia.
cindys
<fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:g305j.22239$AX6.11721@trnddc07...
> Cindy, this was terrirific - magnificent!
> I can't think of a single thing to add, but yasher koach!!
Thank you, Susan. I just wish this hadn't been crossposted to the
antisemitic sewer known as SCJ.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cactus
The vast majority of Christians that I know are reasonable people who
represent the highest values of their religion. There is a very biased
sample taking part in these NGs
If a Jew did want to believe that
> Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, he would truly be caught between the
> rock and the hard place.
He or she would become Christian.
>
> Secondly, I don't see how you can take these prophecies so literally
> and so absolutely.
It's very simple - those are the criteria. They haven't been met, not
one of them, by anyone. What's hard about understanding that?
They were written down by men who tried their best
> to grasp what G-D was trying to convey to them. Or do you believe
> that G-D literally dictated these prophecies?
I don't worry about it.
Secondly, it seems
> quite unclear from the Torah exactly who G-D is. It says first that
> the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and then somehow another
> voice announces that his name is I AM (Ehyeh) or I AM THAT I AM (Ehyeh
> Asher Ehyeh). On the other hand, Genesis would seem to indicate that
> G-D is the Creator of this world, known in Hinduism as Brahma. To my
> knowledge I AM THAT I AM is not the same person as Brahma, the Creator
> of this world. So, given all that, is it possible that different
> prophets heard different Gods or, to put it less objectionably,
> different aspects of G-D.
Perhaps you should explore the Jewish mystical traditions. It might help.
>
> I think it is quite clear that the Heavenly Father of Jesus is NOT the
> same as the aspect of G-D that spoke through some of the prophets.
> Jesus identified with some of the old prophets and prophecies, but
> countermanded others of them, especially those that seem harsh and
> judgmental to us as modern civilized men, like stoning whores to
> death, for instance.
OK
>
> The point I am trying to make is that religion is not like mundane
> subjects, which can be rather cut and dry. When humans try to
> comprehend G-D, it is hard to even know where to start. For the most
> part it is all unknown, or else known only through mystic symbolism
> and/or spiritual experience. To take the scriptures so literally and
> absolutely as you do is certainly not the only possible attitude
> toward them.
Lao Tze says that the way that can be named is not the true way. The
Kaddish prayer, one of the oldest in Judaism, doesn't even mention G-d
by name, and refers to the one as "beyond all praise and psalm," i.e.
incomprehensible.
>
> Given all that, it still seems like a very unusual sociological
> phenomenon to me that Jews so uniformly reject Jesus.
It is very strange to me that people believe that a messiah has arrived
when all is not perfect in the world.
I cannot think
> of any other example of such uniform belief among a people, unless it
> be coerced, such as in Stalinist Russia, where those who disagreed
> were sent to Siberia.
There is some tension regarding a messiah in Judaism. Talk to a rabbi
about it to learn more. It's too deep a subject for these NGs.
cactus
> On 3-Dec-2007, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>
>>> Roy,
>>>
>>> Maybe you can answer something for me. I am an offspring of an
>>> intermarriage. My parents were both atheists, but I became deeply
>>> interested in both the old and new testaments. How do you explain
>>> that? It would seem that some sort of redemption was wrought by the
>>> intermarriage in my case.
>>>
>>> But what I want to ask you is this: "Why are Jews so unanimous in
>>> rejecting Jesus as the Messiah?" To me, it suggests that there is a
>>> dearth of freethinking in Jewish communities,
>
> No way is this guy anything but a fundy troll.
> No way do people raised by atheists jump to the only stupid
> conclusion in response to a question like this, especially since
> it could be equally leveled at the atheist community.
Interesting. We shall see...
flores...@hotmail.com
> floresriki...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 4:53 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> >>> Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> >>> case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> >>> up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> >>> rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> >>> who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> >>> did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> >>> the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> >>> of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
> >> This guy is a known virulent antisemite. He lies about Jews, mainly out
> >> of hostility and total ignorance.
>
> > You are a lying sack of shit.
>
> Schoolyard invective is not a viable response. Refute me or STFU.
I have been refuting your lies with facts. You are a pathetic liar,
but
shit, don't feel lonely. Without lies, Zionism would lose its fuel.
You all do it to extreme. Biggest liars on earth, everybody knows
it. Ever bothered to look over those Ten Commandments that
your Moses character got from God after he chiseled them on
the mountain? You ain't sposed to lie, Yitzhak.
> > So, point out from what I wrote above where the inaccuracies are...
>
> We're not inbred.
Yes you are, and your tribe has the genetic disorders to prove it.
But I realize I'm over your beanie now.
> We did not accept your Jesus of Nazareth because he did not meet the
> criteria for the Messiah as set out in Tanach.
He didn't care for you hatred and bigotry of non-Jews, as has been
pointed
out what, about a dozen times? It's all in the NT. Bummer ain't
it...
> Jesus apparently did throw moneychangers out of the Temple, but IIRC
> Hosea did that before him. He merely followed precedent. But no Jew
> complains about Jesus because he did that.
Bullshit. It was one of the main reasons why they had him arrested.
> We do complain about antisemitic bigots such as yourself. People like
> you give Christianity a bad name.
Aw, tsk tsk, Yitzhak.
> > You are now responding to someone else, moron. Then again,
> > anyone who criticizes you bigots is "hatefilled." Ho-hum.
>
> I guess I did. But you are still an ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
Pot kettle black, Yitzhak. Your tribe invented hatred and
bigotry. And what was that? Oh yeah, schoolyard invective
is not a viable resonse. LOL! You are a hoot!
> >>> Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
> >> How would you know, you ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
>
> > You are the ignorant, hatefulled bigot, as has been pointed out.
>
> Schoolyard invective is not a viable response. Refute me or STFU.
You wouldn't know a viable response if it flew into the crack of your
fat ass, bigot.
flores...@hotmail.com
> Cindy, this was terrirific - magnificent!
> I can't think of a single thing to add, but yasher koach!!
Which translates to 'yummy cockroach.' So have 'em
throw you a barrel full, Sea Mammal.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:eea77a9a-3f57-4c80...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
snip
>
> Secondly, I don't see how you can take these prophecies so literally
> and so absolutely. They were written down by men who tried their best
> to grasp what G-D was trying to convey to them. Or do you believe
> that G-D literally dictated these prophecies?
I don't know of anyone who believes that. Certainly no Jewish person. But
Christianity is completely dependent on these prophecies being taken
literally, so any argument that the prophecies are not to be taken literally
would be an argument *against* Christianity.
>Secondly, it seems
> quite unclear from the Torah exactly who G-D is. It says first that
> the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and then somehow another
> voice announces that his name is I AM (Ehyeh) or I AM THAT I AM (Ehyeh
> Asher Ehyeh).
It's unclear when you are studying the torah in English translation and
without any commentary.
>On the other hand, Genesis would seem to indicate that
> G-D is the Creator of this world, known in Hinduism as Brahma. To my
> knowledge I AM THAT I AM is not the same person as Brahma, the Creator
> of this world. So, given all that, is it possible that different
> prophets heard different Gods or, to put it less objectionably,
> different aspects of G-D.
As far as I know, Hinduism is polytheistic (someone will correct me if I am
wrong).
>
> I think it is quite clear that the Heavenly Father of Jesus is NOT the
> same as the aspect of G-D that spoke through some of the prophets.
> Jesus identified with some of the old prophets and prophecies, but
> countermanded others of them, especially those that seem harsh and
> judgmental to us as modern civilized men, like stoning whores to
> death, for instance.
And right here is a very clear example of why the torah cannot be studied in
translation without any commentary. How many whores do you think were
actually stoned (by Jews) in antiquity? My guess would be probably zero.
>
> The point I am trying to make is that religion is not like mundane
> subjects, which can be rather cut and dry. When humans try to
> comprehend G-D, it is hard to even know where to start. For the most
> part it is all unknown, or else known only through mystic symbolism
> and/or spiritual experience. To take the scriptures so literally and
> absolutely as you do is certainly not the only possible attitude
> toward them.
Trying to understand the scriptures literally and in English translation,
i.e., sola scriptura (without any commentary) is the Christian way. It is
not the Jewish way.
>
> Given all that, it still seems like a very unusual sociological
> phenomenon to me that Jews so uniformly reject Jesus.
What do you think we should be "accepting" Jesus as ? A prophet? A messiah?
A god? I think the more pertinent question is why *would* we accept Jesus
when there is every reason not to? Jesus is not our messiah, doesn't fit
the qualifications, is not related to Judaism at all beyond the fact that
the original Christians 2000 years ago were Jews. We understand that some
Christians keep insisting that Jesus is the "Jewish messiah," but non-Jews
don't get to vote on who is or isn't the Jewish messiah or what beliefs
should or shouldn't be acceptable for Jews within the framework of Judaism.
From a Jewish perspective, we don't have any greater reason to accept Jesus
than we do to accept Buddha or Mohammed.
> I cannot think
> of any other example of such uniform belief among a people, unless it
> be coerced, such as in Stalinist Russia, where those who disagreed
> were sent to Siberia.
I think I've explained it rather well, but you seem to not want to accept my
explanation. Why ?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
flores...@hotmail.com
I don't necessarily 'support' anybody, but I condemn Israel for the
myriad crimes against innocent people, illegal occupation, bigotry
and hatred.
> and you would not be complaining were the
> situation reversed.
Bullshit. That's just your convenient strawman. If Arabs had swooped
in and done to a peaceful nation of Jews what has happened in reverse,
I would be defending the Jews against these Arabs. But that ain't
the case, is it.
>
> Face it, you support terror, bigotry,
>
> > and
> > murder,
>
> No, I do not like what is going on at all. I'm like a great many
> Israelis in that regard. There will be a fair and equitable peace in
> the region as soon as the bigots, such as yourself, and the fanatical
> Muslims back off.
Bullshit. Israel is the aggressor and always has been. You seem to
show a tiny smidgen of honesty in your first sentence, but it is
bullshit
because you, like all ZioScum, continue to try to blame the victims
for Israel's crimes. Not impressed.
> along with the destruction of America.
>
> Ooh, you sound like a McCartyist antisemitic bigot. FOAD
Let me see I remember. Oh, schoolyard invective is not a viable
response. You America-destroying bigots and your henchmen
have done more harm to the U.S. on the world stage than any
enemy in its history. But that's the old ZioNazi tradition...slowly
destroy from the inside.
flores...@hotmail.com
Great refutation Yitzhak. The fact is that that only a tiny % of the
world's population
believe in your cult. And your numbers appear to be shrinking, so
please explain
your silly response, for my amusement understand.
cactus
You would hate Israel if everybody got along. You will continue to hate
Israel and Jews when there is peace in the region. You have given no
reason to believe otherwise.
>
>> and you would not be complaining were the
>> situation reversed.
>
> Bullshit. That's just your convenient strawman. If Arabs had swooped
> in and done to a peaceful nation of Jews what has happened in reverse,
> I would be defending the Jews against these Arabs. But that ain't
> the case, is it.
Why should I believe you? You spew hatred as a matter of routine. If
there were any truth to your claim you would behave very differently.
>> Face it, you support terror, bigotry,
>>
>>> and
>>> murder,
>> No, I do not like what is going on at all. I'm like a great many
>> Israelis in that regard. There will be a fair and equitable peace in
>> the region as soon as the bigots, such as yourself, and the fanatical
>> Muslims back off.
>
> Bullshit. Israel is the aggressor and always has been. You seem to
> show a tiny smidgen of honesty in your first sentence, but it is
> bullshit
> because you, like all ZioScum, continue to try to blame the victims
> for Israel's crimes. Not impressed.
This is why there is no reason to believe what you claimed earlier.
Your hatespeech destroys any credibility you might ever have had in this
matter. You are antisemitic, and there is no reason to imagine a
scintilla of good will towards Israel and Jews.
>
>> along with the destruction of America.
>>
>> Ooh, you sound like a McCartyist antisemitic bigot. FOAD
>
> Let me see I remember. Oh, schoolyard invective is not a viable
> response. You America-destroying bigots and your henchmen
> have done more harm to the U.S. on the world stage than any
> enemy in its history. But that's the old ZioNazi tradition...slowly
> destroy from the inside.
My family immigrated here at various times over the last 100 years.
Without exception they have been doctors, lawyers, engineers,
accountants and other professionals. Some were decorated veterans in
two world wars. We did nothing to destroy this country, we built it up.
Your objection is that we provide competition that you cannot meet.
You resent being a failure, so you vent at the people who succeed. I'll
bet you don't like other immigrants either.
cactus
> On Dec 3, 5:39 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>> floresriki...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Dec 3, 4:53 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>>>>> Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
>>>>> case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
>>>>> up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
>>>>> rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
>>>>> who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
>>>>> did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
>>>>> the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
>>>>> of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>>>> This guy is a known virulent antisemite. He lies about Jews, mainly out
>>>> of hostility and total ignorance.
>>> You are a lying sack of shit.
>> Schoolyard invective is not a viable response. Refute me or STFU.
>
> I have been refuting your lies with facts. You are a pathetic liar,
> but
> shit, don't feel lonely. Without lies, Zionism would lose its fuel.
> You all do it to extreme. Biggest liars on earth, everybody knows
> it. Ever bothered to look over those Ten Commandments that
> your Moses character got from God after he chiseled them on
> the mountain? You ain't sposed to lie, Yitzhak.
Yes. And my name isn't Yitzhak, you ignorant antisemitic bigot.
>
>>> So, point out from what I wrote above where the inaccuracies are...
>> We're not inbred.
>
> Yes you are, and your tribe has the genetic disorders to prove it.
> But I realize I'm over your beanie now.
No you aren't. You clearly do not know what inbreeding is, or
understand its manifestations.
>
>> We did not accept your Jesus of Nazareth because he did not meet the
>> criteria for the Messiah as set out in Tanach.
>
> He didn't care for you hatred and bigotry of non-Jews, as has been
> pointed
> out what, about a dozen times? It's all in the NT. Bummer ain't
> it...
>
The Greek Testament is not my canon. All I know about it is that it
contains polemics against the Jews, most of which have been refuted over
time.
>> Jesus apparently did throw moneychangers out of the Temple, but IIRC
>> Hosea did that before him. He merely followed precedent. But no Jew
>> complains about Jesus because he did that.
>
> Bullshit. It was one of the main reasons why they had him arrested.
>
They didn't. The Romans didn't like him because he was a rabble-rouser
in a restive province. The Romans arrested him and executed him.
>> We do complain about antisemitic bigots such as yourself. People like
>> you give Christianity a bad name.
>
> Aw, tsk tsk, Yitzhak.
My name is not Yitzhak. Your antisemitic bigotry gives Christianity a
bad name.
>
>>> You are now responding to someone else, moron. Then again,
>>> anyone who criticizes you bigots is "hatefilled." Ho-hum.
>> I guess I did. But you are still an ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
>
> Pot kettle black, Yitzhak. Your tribe invented hatred and
> bigotry. And what was that? Oh yeah, schoolyard invective
> is not a viable resonse. LOL! You are a hoot!
And you are a liar.
>
>>>>> Yep, it's a tight-knit cult, with unchanging attitudes.
>>>> How would you know, you ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
>>> You are the ignorant, hatefulled bigot, as has been pointed out.
>> Schoolyard invective is not a viable response. Refute me or STFU.
>
> You wouldn't know a viable response if it flew into the crack of your
> fat ass, bigot.
You asked for errors in what you posted and I provided them. You have
no response because they were in fact errors. You have only lies to
support your position. Pitiful.
>
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> Historically, thousands, maybe millions of Jews have been martyred because
> we refused to convert to Christianity. The typical pattern was first try to
> convert the Jews by persuasion, and then when we wouldn't cooperate, force
> was used (torture, expulsion and in many cases death). The Christian bible
> is an antisemitic document and has spawned ongoing accusations of
> "Christ-killer" over the centuries. This "Christ-killer" label has provided
> an excuse for countless numbers of pogroms across the centuries. Not that
> this is the reason Jews won't convert to Christianity (as I said there are
> obvious theological reasons), but why would Jews be interested in
> Christianity based on the antisemitic history alone?
Yeah, this is what I was thinking, that historically a polarization
process occurred that became extraordinarily efficient and complete.
As an objective observer, I believe both sides are wrong, and
tragically so. The Holocaust was probably the nail in the coffin that
split the two religions irreversibly. Again, to my mind it is all a
big misunderstanding, and the serious issues have probably never been
debated. To me, this is a tragic loss to all mankind that probably
dooms the world and makes it unredeemable.
> Also, we Jews are very tenacious about wanting to preserve our religion and
> heritage. We have a vested interest in ensuring the continuity of the Jewish
> people. Every time a Jew converts to Christianity, not only is the Jew lost
> but so are his children and grandchildren.
>
> We have our religion, our God, and our torah. They have served us well for
> the last 4000+ years. We have no reason whatsoever to want to trash our
> religion, our nationality, our culture, our heritage for another religion, a
> foreign belief system. Not to mention the fact that this whole messiah thing
> is a relatively insignificant part of Judaism in the first place. Our main
> focus is God and the torah, not "the messiah." Speaking for myself, I
> couldn't care less about "the messiah."
You are a strange person. You must have blinders on. The world is
going to hell in a handbasket and you think everything is fine. One
explanation is that you are sound asleep, and Judaism is your very
effective sleeping pill.
> But the main thing, as I said, is that there are NO Jewish arguments for
> Jesus as messiah, only Christian arguments.
This is gobbledigook. To a rational person an argument is an
argument.
> Why don't you look at the 300+
> so called "Christian prophecies" and one by one put them back into context
> in the Jewish bible, and I can guarantee you will find that once you look at
> them in context, you will see that many of them could be referring to people
> other than Jesus. Try putting in someone else's name, and you'll see. You
> have to have the belief in Jesus *first* before you can believe that any
> prophecies in the Jewish bible point to him. It doesn't work the other way
> around. Jews didn't buy into this foreign religion 2000 years ago, and we
> don't buy into it now.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
The fact that you can speak as one collective "we don't buy into it"
is what puzzles me. The emphasis on scipture also puzzles me.
Actually I doubt that Jews do have a uniform attitude toward
scripture, but the ones on this forum seem to. To me, religion is NOT
about scripture. It is about transcendence of mortality and an
experience of spiritual reality, whether centered around a
personification of G-D or not. G-D is not even so important. It is
liberation from the human condition and the attainment of spirituality
that are critical. If G-D comes along as part of the deal, then so be
it. I think we just have different goals and different conceptions of
what religion is about. That is natural. What is not natural is for
an entire people to be apparently brainwashed into a uniform belief,
whatever that belief may be. I continue to believe it is a very
unusual sociological phenomenon.
flores...@hotmail.com
Of course not, because you are a lying bigoted ZioNazi who relies on
the same tired whines of anti-semitic, yaddayadda yadda, whenever
there's nothing else.
> >> and you would not be complaining were the
> >> situation reversed.
>
> > Bullshit. That's just your convenient strawman. If Arabs had swooped
> > in and done to a peaceful nation of Jews what has happened in reverse,
> > I would be defending the Jews against these Arabs. But that ain't
> > the case, is it.
>
> Why should I believe you? You spew hatred as a matter of routine. If
> there were any truth to your claim you would behave very differently.
More baseless ZioNazi lies. Yaddayaddayaddayadda. YAWN.
>
> >> Face it, you support terror, bigotry,
>
> >>> and
> >>> murder,
> >> No, I do not like what is going on at all. I'm like a great many
> >> Israelis in that regard. There will be a fair and equitable peace in
> >> the region as soon as the bigots, such as yourself, and the fanatical
> >> Muslims back off.
>
> > Bullshit. Israel is the aggressor and always has been. You seem to
> > show a tiny smidgen of honesty in your first sentence, but it is
> > bullshit
> > because you, like all ZioScum, continue to try to blame the victims
> > for Israel's crimes. Not impressed.
>
> This is why there is no reason to believe what you claimed earlier.
> Your hatespeech destroys any credibility you might ever have had in this
> matter. You are antisemitic, and there is no reason to imagine a
> scintilla of good will towards Israel and Jews.
BLAH BLAH BLAH. You've got nothing to respond with and never have
anything to respond with, just more tiresome & convenient cliches.
> >> Ooh, you sound like a McCartyist antisemitic bigot. FOAD
>
> > Let me see I remember. Oh, schoolyard invective is not a viable
> > response. You America-destroying bigots and your henchmen
> > have done more harm to the U.S. on the world stage than any
> > enemy in its history. But that's the old ZioNazi tradition...slowly
> > destroy from the inside.
>
> My family immigrated here at various times over the last 100 years.
> Without exception they have been doctors, lawyers, engineers,
> accountants and other professionals. Some were decorated veterans in
> two world wars.
Who knows...or cares. Those are the words of a career and inbred
liar.
>We did nothing to destroy this country, we built it up.
I guess that's why the U.S. has been slipping at about the same rate
as ZioNazi control has increased.
> Your objection is that we provide competition that you cannot meet.
> You resent being a failure, so you vent at the people who succeed.
HAHA, well, you've now completed the collection of ZioNazi cliche
reponses!! It appears that I am JEALOUS now!!! Hey, ain't it
about time you tell me about my double-wide and missing teeth?!!
Whew.
Mordecai
cindys wrote:
Perhaps - at a guess - you are speaking to an atheist?
If so - the assumptions behind the question makes communications difficult.
My guess is he is trying to understand the psychology of the Jewish people - and
using things like Jungian psychology as one possible tool?
If so - you are giving religious answers and he/she is seeking psychological
ones.
I remember reading an introduction to a book on the Jews written by a very
prominent (and now deceased) Jewish professor.
I remember well at the front of the book - I think it was thirteen possible
definitions of a Jew - in the strict and dry tones of academia.
It concluded that the Jews did not fit into any of these definitions.
Nor did it resolve (or seek to resolve) the problem ....
Jews are ... outside ... all definitions - and indeed all expectations.
This is true on every level ...
E.G. academia finds us a problem.
Business world finds us a problem as we both succeed and do not obey "their
rules."
Politics has a problem for the same reason.
Religion has a problem for the same reason.
And so on - and so forth.
What can I say? Both outside (looking in) and inside (looking out) jews do not
fit - no matter how hard we try.
I have to live with this part of me. I cannot say I am comfortable with it.
I think I will leave the discussion - I have little I can or should add - just
the thought "perhaps this is the subject that your friend is trying to discuss."
Be well ...
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
cactus
For your amusement, whatever we do, we do. If we disappear, you will be
hating ghosts.
flores...@hotmail.com
Oh, maybe that's just your terrorist hero. Sorry.
> >>> So, point out from what I wrote above where the inaccuracies are...
> >> We're not inbred.
>
> > Yes you are, and your tribe has the genetic disorders to prove it.
> > But I realize I'm over your beanie now.
>
> No you aren't. You clearly do not know what inbreeding is, or
> understand its manifestations.
If you can attain a higher level of education on the subject, perhaps
we can talk further on it.
> >> We did not accept your Jesus of Nazareth because he did not meet the
> >> criteria for the Messiah as set out in Tanach.
>
> > He didn't care for you hatred and bigotry of non-Jews, as has been
> > pointed
> > out what, about a dozen times? It's all in the NT. Bummer ain't
> > it...
>
> The Greek Testament is not my canon. All I know about it is that it
> contains polemics against the Jews, most of which have been refuted over
> time.
>
> >> Jesus apparently did throw moneychangers out of the Temple, but IIRC
> >> Hosea did that before him. He merely followed precedent. But no Jew
> >> complains about Jesus because he did that.
>
> > Bullshit. It was one of the main reasons why they had him arrested.
>
> They didn't. The Romans didn't like him because he was a rabble-rouser
> in a restive province. The Romans arrested him and executed him.
Lame stock response: the Romans did it! The story is rather well
established. The Jews chose a murderer over JC. The Jewish
religious establishment plotted and schemed to have JC arrested
and charged. It was a Roman execution because Israel was
under Roman occupation, but the Jews were behind it. You'd
do it again. You'd like to see me hanging on a cross, just for
calling you on your hatred and bigotry wouldn't you Y...
>
> >>> You are now responding to someone else, moron. Then again,
> >>> anyone who criticizes you bigots is "hatefilled." Ho-hum.
> >> I guess I did. But you are still an ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
>
> > Pot kettle black, Yitzhak. Your tribe invented hatred and
> > bigotry. And what was that? Oh yeah, schoolyard invective
> > is not a viable resonse. LOL! You are a hoot!
>
> And you are a liar.
So the pot said to the kettle....LOL.
> You asked for errors in what you posted and I provided them.
You have refuted nothing, as usual. Everything I stated in the
original
paragraph is true. And the number of times you yelled
"bigot...hate..
anti-semitic....etc" proves it. You've got nothing and you know it
flores...@hotmail.com
> -----
> Thank you, Susan. I just wish this hadn't been crossposted to the
> antisemitic sewer known as SCJ.
So why'd you post it to SCJ? But on the contrary, those whoppers
belong in a sewer.
flores...@hotmail.com
But you don't believe in life after death do you? Join the human race
and can
the hate.
cactus
What would you like to discuss on the subject?
>
>>>> We did not accept your Jesus of Nazareth because he did not meet the
>>>> criteria for the Messiah as set out in Tanach.
>>> He didn't care for you hatred and bigotry of non-Jews, as has been
>>> pointed
>>> out what, about a dozen times? It's all in the NT. Bummer ain't
>>> it...
>> The Greek Testament is not my canon. All I know about it is that it
>> contains polemics against the Jews, most of which have been refuted over
>> time.
>>
>>>> Jesus apparently did throw moneychangers out of the Temple, but IIRC
>>>> Hosea did that before him. He merely followed precedent. But no Jew
>>>> complains about Jesus because he did that.
>>> Bullshit. It was one of the main reasons why they had him arrested.
>> They didn't. The Romans didn't like him because he was a rabble-rouser
>> in a restive province. The Romans arrested him and executed him.
>
> Lame stock response: the Romans did it! The story is rather well
> established. The Jews chose a murderer over JC.
The Jewish
> religious establishment plotted and schemed to have JC arrested
> and charged. It was a Roman execution because Israel was
> under Roman occupation, but the Jews were behind it.
That is AFAIK a Christian polemical allegation. If you have objective
sources, cite them, and I'll take a look.
You'd
> do it again. You'd like to see me hanging on a cross, just for
> calling you on your hatred and bigotry wouldn't you Y...
No, I wouldn't. Don't go attributing words to me that I have never
articulated. It's not nice, and typical of your projecting.
>
>>>>> You are now responding to someone else, moron. Then again,
>>>>> anyone who criticizes you bigots is "hatefilled." Ho-hum.
>>>> I guess I did. But you are still an ignorant, hatefilled bigot.
>>> Pot kettle black, Yitzhak. Your tribe invented hatred and
>>> bigotry. And what was that? Oh yeah, schoolyard invective
>>> is not a viable resonse. LOL! You are a hoot!
>> And you are a liar.
>
> So the pot said to the kettle....LOL.
>
>> You asked for errors in what you posted and I provided them.
>
> You have refuted nothing, as usual. Everything I stated in the
> original
> paragraph is true. And the number of times you yelled
> "bigot...hate..
> anti-semitic....etc" proves it. You've got nothing and you know it
No, you did not respond to what I said. You nonresponse does not change
what you have shown yourself to be.
cactus
There are plenty of people who don't like what Israel is doing. I am
among them. But I can tell someone of good faith from a bigot like
yourself.
Are you an Identity Church member?
>
>> Your objection is that we provide competition that you cannot meet.
>> You resent being a failure, so you vent at the people who succeed.
>
> HAHA, well, you've now completed the collection of ZioNazi cliche
> reponses!! It appears that I am JEALOUS now!!! Hey, ain't it
> about time you tell me about my double-wide and missing teeth?!!
> Whew.
I didn't think that you could afford a double-wide. I don't even know
whether you would fit in one, not having seen you. I have no idea about
your teeth for exactly the same reason.
cindys
"Mordecai" <"mldavis(please dont spam)"@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:4754A3CD...@internode.on.net...
>
>
> cindys wrote:
snip>>
>> I think I've explained it rather well, but you seem to not want to accept
>> my
>> explanation. Why ?
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>
> Perhaps - at a guess - you are speaking to an atheist?
> If so - the assumptions behind the question makes communications
> difficult.
I didn't think so. He said one of his parents was a born Jew, the other a
non-Jew and both were atheists, but he had been reading both the Jewish
bible and the Christian bible and had developed a faith.
>
> My guess is he is trying to understand the psychology of the Jewish
> people - and
> using things like Jungian psychology as one possible tool?
>
> If so - you are giving religious answers and he/she is seeking
> psychological
> ones.
I think it's a little bit of both.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cactus
flores...@hotmail.com
>
> No, I wouldn't. Don't go attributing words to me that I have never
> articulated.
But of course it's okay for you to do it. And you do it often.
Like I said, several times; pot, kettle......
> It's not nice, and typical of your projecting.
See above.
And see below. The "shown yourself to be" part is a classic
example of attributing things to me I haven't shown,....just
how you WANT to paint me. ZioNazi spin if you will...
you and your pals would get more respect if you actually
tried to live by those Ten Commandments that brother Moses
handed over to you. Never occurs to you no?
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> <pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
> news:eea77a9a-3f57-4c80...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> snip
>
>
>
> > Secondly, I don't see how you can take these prophecies so literally
> > and so absolutely. They were written down by men who tried their best
> > to grasp what G-D was trying to convey to them. Or do you believe
> > that G-D literally dictated these prophecies?
>
> I don't know of anyone who believes that. Certainly no Jewish person. But
> Christianity is completely dependent on these prophecies being taken
> literally, so any argument that the prophecies are not to be taken literally
> would be an argument *against* Christianity.
You seem to think only in stereotypes. I am a Christ Communist, the
son of a Jewish father and Christian mother. I think independently
and formulate my conception of G-D as it is revealed to me by G-D, not
by men or by scripture, per se. I care not for the schisms of men, I
seek the truth of G-D, wherever it may be found. This is the ancient
and true open-minded attitude of all spiritual seekers and sages.
> >Secondly, it seems
> > quite unclear from the Torah exactly who G-D is. It says first that
> > the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and then somehow another
> > voice announces that his name is I AM (Ehyeh) or I AM THAT I AM (Ehyeh
> > Asher Ehyeh).
>
> It's unclear when you are studying the torah in English translation and
> without any commentary.
I don't suppose you would condescend to fill us in. The Jews believe
their language is superior, the Hindus believe their language is
superior. I believe that G-D has the wherewithal to accomplish a
translation that preserves his meaning, and so I am skeptical of all
claims at superiority when it comes to language.
> >On the other hand, Genesis would seem to indicate that
> > G-D is the Creator of this world, known in Hinduism as Brahma. To my
> > knowledge I AM THAT I AM is not the same person as Brahma, the Creator
> > of this world. So, given all that, is it possible that different
> > prophets heard different Gods or, to put it less objectionably,
> > different aspects of G-D.
>
> As far as I know, Hinduism is polytheistic (someone will correct me if I am
> wrong).
Do you believe that G-D is a singular person above all other persons.
If so, why him and not someone else? Starting with such an arbitrary
and unequal scheme how can you ever believe in equality of persons. I
believe that G-D is an ideal that can be filled by persons of very
high spiritual attainment. Every human being has the same potential
to become a personification of G-D, although it might take millions or
billions of years. By the way, I consider any other belief than this
to be naive and childish, but possibly dangerous to society insofar as
it sows the seed of inequality of persons. This is the diametrically
wrong first principle, metaphysically speaking. The correct first
principle is the equality of persons. The former generates enmity
among men, while the latter leads to the oneness of mankind and
harmony between all beings, great and small.
> > I think it is quite clear that the Heavenly Father of Jesus is NOT the
> > same as the aspect of G-D that spoke through some of the prophets.
> > Jesus identified with some of the old prophets and prophecies, but
> > countermanded others of them, especially those that seem harsh and
> > judgmental to us as modern civilized men, like stoning whores to
> > death, for instance.
>
> And right here is a very clear example of why the torah cannot be studied in
> translation without any commentary. How many whores do you think were
> actually stoned (by Jews) in antiquity? My guess would be probably zero.
Well, there is a danger that you are being brainwashed by the
closedness of your community (open only to speakers of Hebrew), and
the commentary that you accept so uncritically.
> > The point I am trying to make is that religion is not like mundane
> > subjects, which can be rather cut and dry. When humans try to
> > comprehend G-D, it is hard to even know where to start. For the most
> > part it is all unknown, or else known only through mystic symbolism
> > and/or spiritual experience. To take the scriptures so literally and
> > absolutely as you do is certainly not the only possible attitude
> > toward them.
>
> Trying to understand the scriptures literally and in English translation,
> i.e., sola scriptura (without any commentary) is the Christian way. It is
> not the Jewish way.
You have said nothing to support the claim of superiority. To me, the
details from ancient Rabbis might be relevant and interesting, IF I
had access to them. If not, then I will rely on what G-D has made
available to me, which is quite alot.
> > Given all that, it still seems like a very unusual sociological
> > phenomenon to me that Jews so uniformly reject Jesus.
>
> What do you think we should be "accepting" Jesus as ? A prophet? A messiah?
> A god? I think the more pertinent question is why *would* we accept Jesus
> when there is every reason not to? Jesus is not our messiah, doesn't fit
> the qualifications, is not related to Judaism at all beyond the fact that
> the original Christians 2000 years ago were Jews. We understand that some
> Christians keep insisting that Jesus is the "Jewish messiah," but non-Jews
> don't get to vote on who is or isn't the Jewish messiah or what beliefs
> should or shouldn't be acceptable for Jews within the framework of Judaism.
> From a Jewish perspective, we don't have any greater reason to accept Jesus
> than we do to accept Buddha or Mohammed.
I think you are quite insincere here. As you know, Jesus was a Jew
who affirmed much of the old testament, and was seen by three of his
Apostles in the Presence of Moses and Elijah. If you believe the
story (the new testament), Jesus is a very compelling character. He
healed the sick, raised the dead, and defended the poor and
downtrodden, just as G-D would do. There is no other character like
him in Jewish history, not even the Baal Shem Tov. Moreover, Jesus
came for everyone, not just Jews. I don't know much about Mohammed,
but I do know quite a bit about Buddha, and you would do very well to
open your mind and learn from him. What are you so afraid of? The
truth?
>
> > I cannot think
> > of any other example of such uniform belief among a people, unless it
> > be coerced, such as in Stalinist Russia, where those who disagreed
> > were sent to Siberia.
>
> I think I've explained it rather well, but you seem to not want to accept my
> explanation. Why ?
Because I am not a zombie. I am a freethinker. I am not looking to
be brainwashed by you or anyone else. I am searching for the Truth,
and finding a little bit more of it everyday, I might add.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:2d6a9532-e183-4f84...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> The fact that you can speak as one collective "we don't buy into it"
> is what puzzles me. The emphasis on scipture also puzzles me.
> Actually I doubt that Jews do have a uniform attitude toward
> scripture, but the ones on this forum seem to.
Whom do you perceive as being Jewish on *this forum* ? There are only a very
few Jews on alt.messianic. And we (the few Jews who post to alt.messy)
actually have very divergent views regarding scripture. So, I would suggest
that you had a foregone conclusion in your mind and now you have convinced
yourself of your own conclusions.
>To me, religion is NOT
> about scripture.
Scripture is much more important to Christians than it is to Jews, so I
guess I'm not really sure why you are obsessing about Jews in this regard.
> It is about transcendence of mortality and an
> experience of spiritual reality, whether centered around a
> personification of G-D or not. G-D is not even so important. It is
> liberation from the human condition and the attainment of spirituality
> that are critical. If G-D comes along as part of the deal, then so be
> it. I think we just have different goals and different conceptions of
> what religion is about. That is natural. What is not natural is for
> an entire people to be apparently brainwashed into a uniform belief,
> whatever that belief may be. I continue to believe it is a very
> unusual sociological phenomenon.
Oh, so now, all the Jews are "brainwashed." Why? Because we don't all want
to run out and become Christians? I should have seen that line coming. I
think I've wasted enough time on this thread.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
>
Mordecai
cindys wrote:
> "Mordecai" <"mldavis(please dont spam)"@internode.on.net> wrote in message
> news:4754A3CD...@internode.on.net...
> >
> >
> > cindys wrote:
>
> snip>>
> >> I think I've explained it rather well, but you seem to not want to accept
> >> my
> >> explanation. Why ?
> >> Best regards,
> >> ---Cindy S.
> >
> > Perhaps - at a guess - you are speaking to an atheist?
> > If so - the assumptions behind the question makes communications
> > difficult.
>
> I didn't think so. He said one of his parents was a born Jew, the other a
> non-Jew and both were atheists, but he had been reading both the Jewish
> bible and the Christian bible and had developed a faith.
Ah - forgive me - I have not really been following the thread.
SCJ is not high on my "to do" read.
>
> >
> > My guess is he is trying to understand the psychology of the Jewish
> > people - and
> > using things like Jungian psychology as one possible tool?
> >
> > If so - you are giving religious answers and he/she is seeking
> > psychological
> > ones.
>
> I think it's a little bit of both.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
Well, what few ideas I have about the psychological are there for him to read.
Perhaps it will help him.
flores...@hotmail.com
>
> There are plenty of people who don't like what Israel is doing.
I am quite aware of that. In fact, most of the world doesn't.
> I am among them. But I can tell someone of good faith from a bigot like
> yourself.
You keep forgetting that YOU are the bigot. Denial? You seem to be
acknowledging that Israel is doing bad things, yet you continue
to sing the pro-Israel ZioNazi tune. Do explain, for my amusement
understand.
> Are you an Identity Church member?
What is that? I don't belong to any church.
> I didn't think that you could afford a double-wide. I don't even know
> whether you would fit in one, not having seen you. I have no idea about
> your teeth for exactly the same reason.
I live in a refrigerator box and weigh 300 lbs. and have 7 teeth. I
am currently
posting from the public library, near the heater. But tell me, how
do you
feel about the illegal occupation, the invasion of Lebanon last year
with
over 1000 innocent people dying while your beloved Israel used cluster
bombs to wreak havoc, all over the taking (but not harming) two
soldiers?
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> <pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
> news:2d6a9532-e183-4f84...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > The fact that you can speak as one collective "we don't buy into it"
> > is what puzzles me. The emphasis on scipture also puzzles me.
> > Actually I doubt that Jews do have a uniform attitude toward
> > scripture, but the ones on this forum seem to.
>
> Whom do you perceive as being Jewish on *this forum* ? There are only a very
> few Jews on alt.messianic. And we (the few Jews who post to alt.messy)
> actually have very divergent views regarding scripture. So, I would suggest
> that you had a foregone conclusion in your mind and now you have convinced
> yourself of your own conclusions.
Not at all. The few I have heard from were all of one accord. I am
basing my statement on my admittedly limited experience.
> >To me, religion is NOT
> > about scripture.
>
> Scripture is much more important to Christians than it is to Jews, so I
> guess I'm not really sure why you are obsessing about Jews in this regard.
No one is obsessing about anything, except maybe you. I am engaging
in dialogue and debate, which I do to ferret out and discover the
Truth.
> > It is about transcendence of mortality and an
> > experience of spiritual reality, whether centered around a
> > personification of G-D or not. G-D is not even so important. It is
> > liberation from the human condition and the attainment of spirituality
> > that are critical. If G-D comes along as part of the deal, then so be
> > it. I think we just have different goals and different conceptions of
> > what religion is about. That is natural. What is not natural is for
> > an entire people to be apparently brainwashed into a uniform belief,
> > whatever that belief may be. I continue to believe it is a very
> > unusual sociological phenomenon.
>
> Oh, so now, all the Jews are "brainwashed." Why?
If the shoe fits, wear it.
> Because we don't all want
> to run out and become Christians?
No, Cindy, because you are afraid to have an honest debate about the
issue I raised or about any other important issue that has to do with
comparative religion. You want to hide behind your Judaism and make
that a barrier to serious dialogue and debate.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
spam)"@internode.on.net> wrote:
> cindys wrote:
> > <pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
Fitting in is just a matter of establishing contextual relations. I
try pretty hard to do that, so I guess I don't fit in much, either.
The only difference is that I have found the attempt at establishing
contextual relations to be deeply rewarding, even a path to the very
Truth itself. You still seem to be threatened by it. You fear you
will lose your identity. I think just the opposite is true.
Terry Cross
>
> > >>>> ???????
> > >>>>> Allow me to answer sir/madam. Zionist Jews, being the inbred, hard
> > >>>>> case bigots they are (along with being--<ahem>--told by the Big Guy
> > >>>>> up above that they are to rule and control the rest of humanity)
> > >>>>> rejected JC as Messiah because he didn't fit their idea of the one
> > >>>>> who would lead them to achieve the aforementioned. He also
> > >>>>> did annoying things like disapprove--rather strongly--on some of
> > >>>>> the Chosen's common practices, like setting up shop in houses
> > >>>>> of worship, associating with social rejects, the poor, and the like.
>
> > > Uh, dumbass, have you already forgotten that you've read and responded
> > > to this before? What's with the question marks here? Sheeeesh...
>
> > >> The word "cult" has several negative connotations.
>
> > > As does Zionism.
>
> Only according to those among whom "Judaism", "woman",
> "non-white" also have negative connotations - IOW, not really.
I have heard that every morning, the Orthodox Jew thanks God in prayer
that he was not born a woman, a slave, or a Gentile.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/04-Observance/section-54.html
Can you confirm? That would seem to be a little negative, don't you
agree?
TCross
Mordecai
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
Umm - she cannot have an honest debate with you - any more than you can with her.
I speak as an ex christian MJ - and this is not a condemnation of either party -
it is a matter of language.
For example - I am sure you are aware that the NT is not legalistic and condemns
legalism.
Yet, when I returned to Judaism, one of the hard parts I had was that i considered
the laws in a legalistic manner.
The bias was the idea that these were laws and the most high demanded perfection.
They are not exactly "laws", and the most high does not demand perfection.
The very language used, the concepts discussed created within me this bias - and
this bias I have rejected it ... NOW, at long last.
Yet - the religion which tried to remove legalism, and judgement - created instead
the very thing it opposed.
And the cause is language.
Look - on a deeper level - would you like a discussion about trinity from the POV
of psychology and the emotional desires of Jews verses gentiles?
It is long, involved and very deep. It shows the drives which cause Jews to seek
what they desire - and the contrary desires for gentiles to seek what they desire
... and the outcome is a doctrine called trinity which absolutely satisfies the
inner drives of gentiles - and absolutely negates the drives put upon Jews by the
most high himself.
You see - the most high was so rude as to put a definition of "G_d" onto the
heart of every Jew ... that is ... the specific ... person ... we relate to - and
the authority this ... person ... wields. Our husband is the one in charge. We
know him. He explained himself to us ... it is written on our hearts.
Gentiles do not have this knowledge or this relationship. Thus they do not know
the one they worship. Ergo they have extra biblical ideas as to what a G_d is -
and they have a G_d who is sent, without a name, without any defined authority -
without a relationship except that of a stranger ... which is EXACTLY their
relationship to him before they became "Christian."
The communication gap between Jew and gentile is large.
Neither you nor Cindy is able to bridge it.
And, I might add, a study of the hebrew language of itself is not enough.
Terry Cross
> Terry Cross wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 2:23 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> >> Terry Cross wrote:
> >>> On Dec 3, 12:20 pm, Wexford <wrya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> The word "cult" has several negative connotations. If you're not
> >>>> familiar with them, you're either too stupid to continue conversing
> >>>> with, or you're just playing stupid.
> >>>> Fromhttp://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm:
> >>>> One of the most confusing and dangerous religious term is "Cult". The
> >>>> word is derived from the French word "culte" which came from Latin
> >>>> noun "cultus." The latter is related to the ...
> >>> That is the opinion of the Israeli lobby, the same who formed the
> >>> "Cult Awareness Network" to suppress and harass Christians with
> >>> kidnapping and torture.
> >> The so-called "reformed Cult Awareness Network" is "operated by the
> >> Foundation for Religious Freedom." According to the IRS/Scientology
> >> agreement this foundation is a "Scientology-related" entity.
>
> >> Seehttp://www.rickross.com/groups/newcan.htmlforfurther information.
>
> > That was not the original nature of the Network when it operated as a
> > militant anti-Christian, anti-religious thug haven.
>
> Citations?
You can look it up. I was an adult in that period, and I know the
history from personal memory.
> CAN was a
>
> > virulent force against Scientology during the 1980s.
>
> Citations?
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c44.html
> Rick Ross
>
> > himself is a poor source of information, having himself been convicted
> > of kidnapping in service of CAN.
>
> > CAN was on of the organizations that guided the propaganda to destroy
> > the Branch Davidians.
>
> I've met some of these guys at booths. They told me that Judaism and
> Islam are "cults." Sort of wrecks their credibility.
Not when you speak English, rather than the dumbed-down baby-talk of
TeeVee. "Cult" is a respectable word referring to any religion.
cult -noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to
its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp.
as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing,
person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites
centering around their sacred symbols.
TCross
cactus
Your words and your choice of words have shown you to be an ignorant
neonazi bigot.
Of course you want to deny it - it's pretty despicable. Calling me
names and trying to pull me down to your level doesn't work. Everybody
here knows what sort of a bigot you are. Your words mean nothing to me.
cactus
> On Dec 3, 8:14 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>> There are plenty of people who don't like what Israel is doing.
>
> I am quite aware of that. In fact, most of the world doesn't.
>
>> I am among them. But I can tell someone of good faith from a bigot like
>> yourself.
>
> You keep forgetting that YOU are the bigot. Denial? You seem to be
> acknowledging that Israel is doing bad things, yet you continue
> to sing the pro-Israel ZioNazi tune. Do explain, for my amusement
> understand.
>> Are you an Identity Church member?
>
> What is that? I don't belong to any church.
>
>> I didn't think that you could afford a double-wide. I don't even know
>> whether you would fit in one, not having seen you. I have no idea about
>> your teeth for exactly the same reason.
>
> I live in a refrigerator box and weigh 300 lbs. and have 7 teeth. I
> am currently
> posting from the public library, near the heater.
I don't believe you. There is very little reason to believe anything you
say.
But tell me, how
> do you
> feel about the illegal occupation, the invasion of Lebanon last year
> with
> over 1000 innocent people dying while your beloved Israel used cluster
> bombs to wreak havoc, all over the taking (but not harming) two
> soldiers?
It was stupid. Israel has been bungling its relationship with the
residents of Southern Lebanon for 20 years. It's pitiful that Israel is
disliked about as much as Hizbollah there.
Israel and Hizbollah had an informal arrangement which led to stability
in the region for quite a while. Hizbollah did not expect the reaction
that they got to what they considered to be a minor provocation. Sad.
Mordecai
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
Nah - I do not fit though I tried.
I do not try any more - I accept myself and if others do not like it - that is their
problem.
Most do have a problem with it - and yet most overcome the problem.
Some take longer than others. Kindness is usually enough to convince others to make
the attempt.
This does not make the situation any more comfortable.
Just because acceptance, kindness, friendship and even love can allow us to get
together (and thus bypass the issue), this does not negate the problem.
We live with our limitations - all of us.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:b896c483-5fd4-4825...@s36g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Oh, so now, all the Jews are "brainwashed." Why?
>
> If the shoe fits, wear it.
>
>> Because we don't all want
>> to run out and become Christians?
>
> No, Cindy, because you are afraid to have an honest debate about the
> issue I raised or about any other important issue that has to do with
> comparative religion. You want to hide behind your Judaism and make
> that a barrier to serious dialogue and debate.
----
You're not looking for "dialogue and debate." You came to this forum in the
hopes of missionizing Christianity to Jews, and now you're pissed off
because we're not interested. Too bad.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:57beb897-2b70-4c8d...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 3, 4:11 pm, "cindys" <cste...@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
snip
>>
>> I think I've explained it rather well, but you seem to not want to accept
>> my
>> explanation. Why ?
>
> Because I am not a zombie. I am a freethinker.
Oh baloney. You're a run-of-the-mill Christian missionary.
> I am not looking to
> be brainwashed by you or anyone else.
Who's looking to "brainwash" you? I don't have any vested interest in what
you choose to believe or not. I never even knew of your existence until an
hour or two ago. Unlike Christians, Jews do not seek converts.
> I am searching for the Truth,
> and finding a little bit more of it everyday, I might add.
>
Yeah right.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
cactus
I did. Interesting
>> CAN was a
>>
>>> virulent force against Scientology during the 1980s.
>> Citations?
>
> http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c44.html
>
>> Rick Ross
>>
>>> himself is a poor source of information, having himself been convicted
>>> of kidnapping in service of CAN.
>>> CAN was on of the organizations that guided the propaganda to destroy
>>> the Branch Davidians.
>> I've met some of these guys at booths. They told me that Judaism and
>> Islam are "cults." Sort of wrecks their credibility.
>
> Not when you speak English, rather than the dumbed-down baby-talk of
> TeeVee. "Cult" is a respectable word referring to any religion.
I speak standard American English. The person who told me that meant it
as a pejorative
>
> cult -noun
> 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to
> its rites and ceremonies.
Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Sikhism and Santeria
meet that definition.
> 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp.
> as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
Christianity and Buddhism meet that requirement
> 3. the object of such devotion.
Jesus of Nazareth
> 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing,
> person, ideal, etc.
That's any organized religion.
> 5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites
> centering around their sacred symbols.
That's any organized religion.
>
> TCross
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
spam)"@internode.on.net> wrote:
> and reality is Never wrong.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your very terms already betray you. Jesus was not a gentile. Why do
you think His religion is a gentile religion? I am not a Christian,
so why are you arguing like this to me? Nor am I a gentile. My
father was Jewish. I don't care what the rabbis say (they contradict
the Torah itself), I am Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist. I
learn from every religion and it deepens my understanding. I don't
know how you can limit yourself to one religion. Aren't you curious
about what your fellow human believe? Don't you think they have
received messages from G-D also? Or are you so arrogant as to think
only the Jews have known G-D? If you are really that arrogant, how
can you face your fellow man with any degree of sincerity? Why are
you surprised when they don't accept you? G-D belongs to all, not
just to Jews. This is what Jesus said, and you rejected Him and still
reject Him. He was right. This is not Jew vs. Gentile. It is a Jew
who was right vs. a lot of Jews who are wrong. And yet you insist
that wrong is right and right is wrong. Go figure.
Don Ocean
Makes sense..
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> You're not looking for "dialogue and debate." You came to this forum in the
> hopes of missionizing Christianity to Jews, and now you're pissed off
> because we're not interested. Too bad.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
This is the ultimate arrogance - you telling me what I am and what I
have come to do. Of course I am not a Christian. I was initiated
into Zen Buddhism and I suppose my overall religion is Theosophy,
which allows me to study comparative science, religion, and
philosophy. I consider myself much more of a Jew than you are.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:e6d303fc-02b1-4642...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
snip
>G-D belongs to all, not
> just to Jews.
Of course God belongs to everybody. The claim that Jews believe God belongs
only to us is a common antisemitic lie. Jewish belief is that there is
righteousness in all people and each person has his own path to God. This is
in contrast to Christianity which claims that Christians have a monopoly on
"salvation" (whatever that is). So, really, it seems to me that the
Christians are the arrogant bigots here.
> This is what Jesus said, and you rejected Him and still
> reject Him.
"Reject" is what way? As a half-man, half-god. You bet. We all know how we
Jews have rejected *our* messiah. Lol. Not only was the Jesus of your bible
not the messiah, he was an arrogant heretic.
>He was right. This is not Jew vs. Gentile. It is a Jew
> who was right vs. a lot of Jews who are wrong.
The capital "H" on "Him" betrays you. And the claim that Jews are "wrong to
reject" Jesus also betrays you. Not only are you a Christian missionary, you
are a lying Christian missionary.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> <pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, well you find an example of where I agree to any extent with a
"fundy." More likely you are a fundy, since your name is Cindy. The
fact that you think I am a "Christian" is hysterical. Do you really
think, given the things that I have said, that I would be embraced by
any "fundy?" If so, you are really very intellectually challenged.
But, I will NOT pray for you. See, if I were a fundy, I would pray
for you. But I don't care. I give you your freedom, even if you want
to use it to be completely assinine.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:b62c7064-e340-478a...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Is that so? Lol. The fact is that you came to this forum to pick a fight.
You started off by pretending you came here only to seek information, i.e.,
"Explain to me why Jews won't accept Jesus." So, I explained it to you, and
very nicely I thought, as did others. And then your response was that the
reason we gave was not the *real* reason, and Jews are brainwashed and
unable to engage in dialogue and debate, and we're arrogant, and we were
wrong to reject "Him." And now you're "more of a Jew" than I am. What a load
of antisemitic crap.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
A few more points: you contradict yourself when you say that you
think others know G-D. Earlier you said that you cannot know G-D
unless you study in the Hebrew with the commentary. That is what I
was referring to. Thereafter, you refused to go into a discussion of
who and what G-D is, showing me that you don't respect my knowledge of
G-D. Instead, you insist on trying to tell me that because I am
critical of you, I am a fundamentalist Christian, which is insane,
given even what I have revealed about my views on this forum.
I know that the reason you wouldn't discuss G-D with me is because you
really have no knowledge at all of G-D. I don't call parroting stuff
you have read genuine knowledge of G-D. That can come from G-D alone,
and from your own direct experience of G-D.
As for my capitalizing He, with reference to Christ, I don't betray
myself at all. I simply disagree with your false doctrine, learned
from the false rabbis, that Moshiach must be a man. Where in the
Torah does it say that? Don't point to that one likening Messiah to
Moses, because I don't think Moses was just a man, either. I would be
very comfortable using He to refer to Moses, who I believe to be a
Master and initiate into the mysteries of G-D. That is why he
appeared with Jesus and Elijah at the Transfiguration, witnessed by
three of the Apostles. I believe both the old and new testaments, but
I agree with Jesus, a Jew, that some of the old testament reflects a
false G-D, who is harsh, judgmental, and unacceptable to modern
civilized man. You say they never really stoned whores to death and
such, but according to the new testament that is exactly what they
were doing at the time of Jesus. Even today we see Jews in Israel
being barbaric at times toward Palestinians, so I can well believe
that your disclaimers are false.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> <pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
Nonsense. I came in good will and you did not reflect it back. You
immediately began pigeonholing me according to your prejudices. Your
insincerity became increasingly clear. My father IS Jewish. That
makes me Jewish, according to the Torah. It is only your false rabbis
that have concocted a ludicrous doctrine to deprive me of my
birthright. I have read their scriptural rationale for saying that
the mother must be Jewish. THAT is a load of antisemitic crap.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
I might add that it is a load of antisemitic and sexist crap.
cindys
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:ec2fe4be-95f0-4fe6...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
snip
>
> A few more points: you contradict yourself when you say that you
> think others know G-D. Earlier you said that you cannot know G-D
> unless you study in the Hebrew with the commentary.
No, I didn't say that. I never said anything about "knowing God" by studying
in Hebrew with commentary. I said the scripture wasn't to be taken
literally. You were presenting me with a literal reading of Jewish scripture
in English translation and claiming that the problem with Jews was that we
took it literally. And I was saying, no we don't take it literally, and we
don't learn it in translation. My point was simply that you were making a
lot of incorrect assumptions about how Jewish people study and what we
believe. It is Christians who study scripture in English and without
commentary and take it at face value (or superimpose their own personal
interpretations, as you have done below). Nothing about "knowing God" at
all.
>That is what I
> was referring to. Thereafter, you refused to go into a discussion of
> who and what G-D is, showing me that you don't respect my knowledge of
> G-D.
I didn't go into that particular discussion because I simply wasn't
interested in that particular topic. Why would you think my lack of interest
was connected to whether I respected your knowledge of God or not? Why do
you think it is my obligation to accommodate you?
> Instead, you insist on trying to tell me that because I am
> critical of you
You asked a question (why don't Jews accept Jesus?), and I answered it. Why
do you think this warranted criticism of me?
>, I am a fundamentalist Christian, which is insane,
> given even what I have revealed about my views on this forum.
>
> I know that the reason you wouldn't discuss G-D with me is because you
> really have no knowledge at all of G-D.
Oh, here we go....
> I don't call parroting stuff
> you have read genuine knowledge of G-D. That can come from G-D alone,
> and from your own direct experience of G-D.
Yes, we know. Like many of the Christians on this group, you have had your
own personal bonafide *spiritual* experience of God/Jesus/whomever. And only
your direct personal spiritual experience is valid. We have a whole bunch of
people on this group who *know* that only their personal spiritual
experiences are the "truth."
>
> As for my capitalizing He, with reference to Christ, I don't betray
> myself at all. I simply disagree with your false doctrine, learned
> from the false rabbis, that Moshiach must be a man. Where in the
> Torah does it say that? Don't point to that one likening Messiah to
> Moses, because I don't think Moses was just a man, either. I would be
> very comfortable using He to refer to Moses, who I believe to be a
> Master and initiate into the mysteries of G-D. That is why he
> appeared with Jesus and Elijah at the Transfiguration, witnessed by
> three of the Apostles. I believe both the old and new testaments, but
> I agree with Jesus, a Jew, that some of the old testament reflects a
> false G-D, who is harsh, judgmental, and unacceptable to modern
> civilized man. You say they never really stoned whores to death and
> such, but according to the new testament that is exactly what they
> were doing at the time of Jesus.
Blah, blah, blah. Yes, alt.messy is filled with people with their own
personal invented religions. You're right. Your personal religious beliefs
really are of zero interest to me.
>Even today we see Jews in Israel
> being barbaric at times toward Palestinians, so I can well believe
> that your disclaimers are false.
Oh, and let's not forget a dose of anti-Israel sentiment for good measure.
You should have told me right off you were an antisemite. You could have
spared me from wasting my time with you.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> <pjmutn...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ec2fe4be-95f0-4fe6...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> snip
>
>
>
> > A few more points: you contradict yourself when you say that you
> > think others know G-D. Earlier you said that you cannot know G-D
> > unless you study in the Hebrew with the commentary.
>
> No, I didn't say that. I never said anything about "knowing God" by studying
> in Hebrew with commentary. I said the scripture wasn't to be taken
> literally. You were presenting me with a literal reading of Jewish scripture
> in English translation and claiming that the problem with Jews was that we
> took it literally. And I was saying, no we don't take it literally, and we
> don't learn it in translation. My point was simply that you were making a
> lot of incorrect assumptions about how Jewish people study and what we
> believe. It is Christians who study scripture in English and without
> commentary and take it at face value (or superimpose their own personal
> interpretations, as you have done below). Nothing about "knowing God" at
> all.
As far as I am concerned, we were never discussing how "Jewish people
study." I came to discuss religious doctrine, which has to do with
knowledge of G-D.
> >That is what I
> > was referring to. Thereafter, you refused to go into a discussion of
> > who and what G-D is, showing me that you don't respect my knowledge of
> > G-D.
>
> I didn't go into that particular discussion because I simply wasn't
> interested in that particular topic. Why would you think my lack of interest
> was connected to whether I respected your knowledge of God or not? Why do
> you think it is my obligation to accommodate you?
Because who and what G-D is has everything to do with the question
that started this line. "How Jewish people study" has nothing to do
with it.
> > Instead, you insist on trying to tell me that because I am
> > critical of you
>
> You asked a question (why don't Jews accept Jesus?), and I answered it. Why
> do you think this warranted criticism of me?
Your answer was insincere. You expected me to accept it like a dog or
a child would accept a command.
> >, I am a fundamentalist Christian, which is insane,
> > given even what I have revealed about my views on this forum.
>
> > I know that the reason you wouldn't discuss G-D with me is because you
> > really have no knowledge at all of G-D.
>
> Oh, here we go....
>
> > I don't call parroting stuff
> > you have read genuine knowledge of G-D. That can come from G-D alone,
> > and from your own direct experience of G-D.
>
> Yes, we know. Like many of the Christians on this group, you have had your
> own personal bonafide *spiritual* experience of God/Jesus/whomever. And only
> your direct personal spiritual experience is valid. We have a whole bunch of
> people on this group who *know* that only their personal spiritual
> experiences are the "truth."
I know who I AM THAT I AM is. His name is Mahavatar Babaji and He is
the Heavenly Father of Jesus Christ. I know who Shaddai and Adonai
are. I know the teachings of the Jewish G-D. You do not. There is
no difference at all between the Jewish G-D and the Hindu G-D or any
other G-D. G-D is G-D.
>
> > As for my capitalizing He, with reference to Christ, I don't betray
> > myself at all. I simply disagree with your false doctrine, learned
> > from the false rabbis, that Moshiach must be a man. Where in the
> > Torah does it say that? Don't point to that one likening Messiah to
> > Moses, because I don't think Moses was just a man, either. I would be
> > very comfortable using He to refer to Moses, who I believe to be a
> > Master and initiate into the mysteries of G-D. That is why he
> > appeared with Jesus and Elijah at the Transfiguration, witnessed by
> > three of the Apostles. I believe both the old and new testaments, but
> > I agree with Jesus, a Jew, that some of the old testament reflects a
> > false G-D, who is harsh, judgmental, and unacceptable to modern
> > civilized man. You say they never really stoned whores to death and
> > such, but according to the new testament that is exactly what they
> > were doing at the time of Jesus.
>
> Blah, blah, blah. Yes, alt.messy is filled with people with their own
> personal invented religions. You're right. Your personal religious beliefs
> really are of zero interest to me.
Well, your automated beliefs that you learn by rote are of no interest
to any modern person. You disrespect me as a person and don't even
know how to relate to yourself or others as real individuals. That is
big problem with your false religion and a true consequence of it.
> >Even today we see Jews in Israel
> > being barbaric at times toward Palestinians, so I can well believe
> > that your disclaimers are false.
>
> Oh, and let's not forget a dose of anti-Israel sentiment for good measure.
> You should have told me right off you were an antisemite. You could have
> spared me from wasting my time with you.
> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.
You are such a phony. You can't play the antisemite card with me,
because I am Jewish.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
> You asked a question (why don't Jews accept Jesus?), and I answered it. Why
> do you think this warranted criticism of me?
Oh, btw, the question was never "why don't Jews accept Jesus?" The
question is "why do almost all Jews reject Jesus," and how did such a
uniformity of belief ever come to exist? Your rewording of it betrays
you, that you really think you can speak for all Jewish people. As a
Jewish person, I know that is a lie, and yet among very many Jews it
is the truth. How is it that millions of people speak as one? How is
it that you have become polarized with respect to millions of people
who are more obviously speaking as one because they are brainwashed,
namely the fundamentalist Christians?
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
I may as well state my conclusion, based upon our conversation: the
uniformity of Jewish belief is the flip side of the coin of the
uniformity of fundamentalist Christian belief. That is why there is
such a tight alliance between Jews and Christians in the modern
world. And yet all of you are following dogma blindly, without any
individual development or individual growth or insight. Now, granted,
a few Jewish scholars, who write the stuff that you read, may be
developing themselves as individuals, but the masses who blindly
accept their proclamations are just cogs in a machine, willing slaves
who have forsaken their own individuality.
BTW, my Zen teacher was Roshi Philip Kapleau, a Jew.
ElParedon
"cactus" <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote in message
news:8n%4j.68847$RX.2...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
> ElParedon wrote:
>> "Roy Jose Lorr" <Ken...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:tcWdna3Ph8NWaM7a...@comcast.com...
>>> http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/528/
>>>
>>> Why be Jewish?
>>> by Jonathan Rosenblum
>>> Baltimore Jewish Times
>>> November 1, 2002
>>>
>>> Let’s call it Rosenblum’s Jewish Survival Self-Exam. It consists of only
>>> one question: Explain why it is important that the Jewish people
>>> continue to exist. The following answers receive no credit.
>>>
>>> Because Jews are the source of such seminal ideas as monotheism, the
>>> dignity of the individual, and equality before the law. While awareness
>>> of Jewish contributions to civilization should be a source of pride, to
>>> the extent that those ideas are today generally shared they provide no
>>> reason for our continued existence.
>>>
>>> Because Jews are disproportionately represented among Nobel Prize
>>> winners.
>>
>> CRAP! NOBEL PRIZES ARE AWARDED ACORDING TO NATIONAL ORIGIN, NOT ACCORDING
>> TO RELIGION. JUDAISM IS NOT A NATIONALITY NOR A RACE
> Crap. Nobel prizes are awarded for significant achievement, as determined
> by the Nobel Prize Committee, in the categories.
IT IS STUPID TO EVEN IMAGINE THAT RELIGION HAS TO DO ANYTHING WITH SOMEONE'S
ACHIEVEMENT. JEWS HAVE THE MONEY TO OBTAIN GOOD EDUCATION, ORDINARY HUMAN
BEINGS DO NOT!
cactus
and I can attest. Don't blame us because your family did not value
education. You probably are not Asian - they value education as well.
That's one of the reasons you are such a failure. Get yourself an
education and you won't have to waste all your time and energy on
baseless bigotry.
cindys
> ElParedon wrote:
snip
>>
>> IT IS STUPID TO EVEN IMAGINE THAT RELIGION HAS TO DO ANYTHING WITH
>> SOMEONE'S ACHIEVEMENT. JEWS HAVE THE MONEY TO OBTAIN GOOD EDUCATION,
>> ORDINARY HUMAN BEINGS DO NOT!
> That's a bloody lie. Jews struggle to educate their children, as my wife
> and I can attest. Don't blame us because your family did not value
> education. You probably are not Asian - they value education as well.
> That's one of the reasons you are such a failure. Get yourself an
> education and you won't have to waste all your time and energy on baseless
> bigotry.
----------
FTR, El Paredon (Alex Seredin) is an 80-something Serbian man. I think he is
long past educating. He is the number one troll on all of usenet. Do
yourself a favor and don't waste your time or energy responding to his
posts.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
pjmu...@sbcglobal.net
Here is what Karl Marx had to say about some of these things:
Works of Karl Marx 1844
On The Jewish Question
Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew - not the Sabbath Jew, as
Bauer does, but the everyday Jew.
Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us
look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew.
What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest.
What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his
worldly God? Money.
Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently
from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our
time.
...
The most rigid form of the opposition between the Jew and the
Christian is the religious opposition. How is an opposition resolved?
By making it impossible. How is religious opposition made impossible?
By abolishing religion. As soon as Jew and Christian recognize that
their respective religions are no more than different stages in the
development of the human mind, different snake skins cast off by
history, and that man is the snake who sloughed them, the relation of
Jew and Christian is no longer religious but is only a critical,
scientific, and human relation. Science, then, constitutes their
unity. But, contradictions in science are resolved by science itself.
[End Quotes]
I actually agree with this second paragraph in a sense, but I would
emphasize that the mind development gained in the progression from
Judaism to Christianity to whatever will come next is a real and
spiritual attainment.
flores...@hotmail.com
> floresriki...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 8:10 pm, cactus <cac...@nonespam.com> wrote:
> >> No, I wouldn't. Don't go attributing words to me that I have never
> >> articulated.
>
> > But of course it's okay for you to do it. And you do it often.
> > Like I said, several times; pot, kettle......
>
> >> It's not nice, and typical of your projecting.
>
> > See above.
>
> > And see below. The "shown yourself to be" part is a classic
> > example of attributing things to me I haven't shown,....just
> > how you WANT to paint me. ZioNazi spin if you will...
> > you and your pals would get more respect if you actually
> > tried to live by those Ten Commandments that brother Moses
> > handed over to you. Never occurs to you no?
>
> >> No, you did not respond to what I said. You nonresponse does not change
> >> what you have shown yourself to be.
>
> Your words and your choice of words have shown you to be an ignorant
> neonazi bigot.
So says the ZioNazi parrot. Ever wonder why the world hates you?
Poll after poll shows Israel and its scum bigot supporters near, or
at,
the bottom of every one.
> Of course you want to deny it - it's pretty despicable. Calling me
> names and trying to pull me down to your level doesn't work. Everybody
> here knows what sort of a bigot you are.
What you mean is that the lying ZioNazi bigots here do the usual name-
calling
when facts are stated they don't like. That's what you mean, bigot.
>Your words mean nothing to me.
I guess that's why you read every one! Silly bigot. <g>
flores...@hotmail.com
> > I live in a refrigerator box and weigh 300 lbs. and have 7 teeth. I
> > am currently
> > posting from the public library, near the heater.
>
> I don't believe you. There is very little reason to believe anything you
> say.
It was sarcasm, sheesh! Are you really this stupid? Okay,
I live in a beat up doublewide, and am married to my sister,
and have 4 teeth. Ain't that how ZioNazis always try to paint
detractors? Just giving the ZioNazi what he wants, that's all.
> But tell me, how
>
> > do you
> > feel about the illegal occupation, the invasion of Lebanon last year
> > with
> > over 1000 innocent people dying while your beloved Israel used cluster
> > bombs to wreak havoc, all over the taking (but not harming) two
> > soldiers?
>
> It was stupid. Israel has been bungling its relationship with the
> residents of Southern Lebanon for 20 years. It's pitiful that Israel is
> disliked about as much as Hizbollah there.
You call the invasion of Lebanon last year "bungling?" So let's
call your beloved Holocaust(tm) a "misunderstanding."
> Israel and Hizbollah had an informal arrangement which led to stability
> in the region for quite a while. Hizbollah did not expect the reaction
> that they got to what they considered to be a minor provocation. Sad
What's sad is the Palestinian situation, but of course, not to a hate-
filled
bigoted ZioNazi.
Robibnikoff
<pjmu...@sbcglobal.net> wrote
snip
> Maybe you can answer something for me. I am an offspring of an
> intermarriage. My parents were both atheists, but I became deeply
> interested in both the old and new testaments. How do you explain
> that? It would seem that some sort of redemption was wrought by the
> intermarriage in my case.
What intermarriage? BTW, want to discuss Judaism? Then keep it the fuck
out of alt.atheism.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557