young Israelis escape "There's nothing for us back in Israel"
Jamie Peters
Israeli Jews in Goa India- search for spirituality, drugs, freedom- war
having its effects
By A. Craig Copetas
Gupta the swastika salesman arrives
at sunset, fires a kerosene lantern and displays his gold-
painted trinkets on an Indian beach filled with hundreds of
young Israelis dancing in a fog of hashish.
Draped in garlands strung with jasmine blossoms, the
pulsating Israelis are freshly decommissioned from the military
and seeking a cheap retreat to unwind from their obligatory two-
to-three years of safeguarding the Jewish state. The conscripts
find sanctuary in the thousands of dilapidated wicker seaside
shacks and dozens of isolated jungle ghettos that weave along a
78-mile coast and snake up treacherous dirt tracks into the
impoverished mountain villages of Goa.
According to Israeli and Indian officials, between 40,000
and 60,000 young Israelis have either permanently moved or
established long-term residence in India. They have created new
lives for themselves alongside the country's 900 million Hindus
and 150 million Muslims and caused tension among the local
population because of the widespread use of recreational drugs.
``Our souls need a permanent break from Israel,'' says army
veteran Tomel Basel, 24, pocketing one of Gupta's 10 cent charms,
the ancient cross with bent arms that is venerated by Hindus as
a lucky adornment.
``We're all runaways,'' Basel says before filling his lungs
with potent smoke and exhaling his separate reality on the
squalor of Anjuna Beach. ``There's nothing for us back in
Israel.''
Karma Kosher Trail
What began in 1994 as the great post-military escape to
India has turned into a new-age Diaspora of young and embittered
men and women looking to flee what they say is their country's
armed turmoil with the Palestinians and the spiritual emptiness
of Judaism.
Many of the revelers on the sands of Anjuna Beach and
elsewhere along what's known as the Karma Kosher Trail say they
have no intention of returning to Israel, despite the efforts of
four local rabbis and a $200,000 joint government-private sector
campaign funded by Israeli banking and telecommunications
magnate Nochi Dankner, a devotee of the Dalai Lama and chairman
of IDB Holding Corp.
Shlomo Breznitz, a director of the campaign and founder of
the India-Israel Parliamentary Friendship Group in Israel, says
the exodus is worrisome and potentially tragic. ``Karma kosher
is much more of a widespread phenomenon than Israelis want to
admit,'' says Breznitz, 71, a retired member of the Israeli
parliament and former president and provost of Haifa University.
India Trade
``India is about to become one of Israel's biggest trading
partners,'' Breznitz adds. ``And we have 40,000 kids down there
who have no idea when or if they will come back. Their attitude
has already fueled very real anti-Israeli elements within the
Indian government and created sufficient motivation for people
in Israel and India to harm our bilateral trade agreements.''
Between 1992 and 2006, trade between Israel and India grew
to $2.7 billion from $200 million and is poised to top $3
billion annually.
``Forty thousand over-enthusiastic Israelis in India are
not going to get in the way of more than $3 billion of bilateral
trade,'' says Indian Minister of Commerce and Industry Kamal
Nath. ``And there's enormous scope for increasing that trade.''
Military Dropout
``Too much is at stake,'' Breznitz says. ``India has the
world's second-largest Muslim population. There's a strong
symbolic element to these youngsters, so it's not a question of
if something might happen, but when it will happen. I read the
security reports.''
Leanna Peled-Rosen, 27, doesn't care. She stripped the
sergeant stripes from her sleeve in 2000, abandoning a promising
military career as a self-defense instructor and anti-terrorist
specialist to become a ballet dancer and live a Hindu lifestyle
in Israel.
She is in Tel Aviv, saving money for a likely trip to India
and aware of the growing economic ties between Israel and India
in telecommunications, pharmaceuticals, construction, real
estate and military hardware.
``The trade will further speed up the process of
integrating Indian culture with Israeli society,'' Peled-Rosen
says at the Sub Kuchmilga (Anything Is Possible) Indian
restaurant. The sign on the door reads ``No Elephants Allowed.''
There's a bottle of bourbon on the bar and, on the jukebox, Bob
Dylan is singing ``Changing of the Guards.''
`No Clue'
``The government has absolutely no clue why we go to
India,'' Peled-Rosen laughs, pointing to a group of uniformed
Israeli soldiers huddled in a corner. ``The politicians will
tell you that we live in a bubble, but it won't burst. Our
spiritual lives are beyond the politics and religion of
Israel.''
Peled-Rosen gestures toward a picture of Ganesh, one of the
Hindu gods that decorate the restaurant. ``Those who have been
forced to return from Goa because they've run out of money are
vocal critics of the political and religious status quo,''
Peled-Rosen says. ``We won't back down.''
Two hours south of Tel Aviv, along the hardscrabble
frontier of the Negev Desert, retired flower grower Rachamin
Efraim pours a sweet drink on the Moshav Nevatim farm and smiles
at the thought of young Israelis roaming the land of his
forefathers.
``India is calm, a good place for young people who have
grown up in a country where everyone is going crazy,'' says the
71-year-old Cochin Jew, one of some 70,000 Indian Jews Breznitz
helped repatriate in the 1950s, more than 2,000 years after the
tribe first arrived in southwestern India from Jerusalem.
`Paradise on Earth'
Accompanying Efraim on the trip home to Israel in 1954 was
Esther Atraham, then 18. Now 71 and living in the moshav's
nursing facility, Atraham says it's foolish to begrudge the
young Jews who have settled in Goa.
``Southern India is paradise on Earth,'' Atraham says,
tugging the sleeve of her sari. ``I understand why the children
go. They had a difficult time in the army. They want joy.''
Just how a disparate group of former Israeli soldiers over
the past 13 years managed to build a stronghold in India without
government oversight remains a mystery. Why they're leaving
Israel is no secret among those preparing to head south from the
26 Rupee restaurant on the roof of a Tel Aviv warehouse.
``The war with the Palestinians never ends,'' says Smadar
Waisman, 26, an Israeli Defense Force intelligence analyst who
left the barracks to join an ashram in Israel.
``Military service turns good young Israelis into corrupt
and insensitive people,'' Waisman says. ``We're forced to follow
orders and do and see horrible things that no young person
should be involved with. If you want your soul to survive the
anxiety and depression of Israel, you leave for Goa.''
Jerusalem to Goa
The long march from the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem to
Curlie's bar in the rocks overlooking Anjuna Beach would
probably challenge Moses. Lapsed Israelis say it often requires
skirting Indian visas, residency permits and making side trips
to ``friendly'' Indian consulates in Beijing and Chiang Mai,
Thailand. Some fly to Sri Lanka and jump a boat for the short
ride across Pamban Channel, blending in among locals who are
mostly exempt from Indian immigration checks.
``It's easy to pull off,'' says Anjuna Christian, a 66-
year-old Frenchman who renamed himself after the beach he has
lived on since moving here in 1977. ``The Israelis are Goa's
next generational wave. They're coming no matter who likes it or
not.''
Those who manage to secure a legitimate visa from the
Indian Consulate in Tel Aviv pay $629 for a round trip that
begins with a rickety bus ride to Amman and a Gulf Air flight to
Bahrain and Mumbai. From there it's a sweltering and crowded
nine-hour train ride to Panaji, Goa's capital.
`Empty Place'
The cost of deliverance is initially underwritten by the
Israeli Defense Force. Combat veterans leave the army with a
maximum cash bonus of $2,100. Combat support staff walk away
with $1,800. Everyone else pockets $1,452.
On the beach, life is cheap and flea-ridden.
A room with a plank bed and a pink mosquito net costs $5 a
night or $11 for three people. Sleeping under a fragrant cashew
tree is free. Kitchens with names like the Outback Indian
Israeli Restaurant come with Hebrew-speaking Hindus who ladle
vegetarian fare for a few cents a plate.
``A lot of us either never served in the army or left it
more than a decade ago,'' says Asaf Rottenberg, a 30-year-old
waiter who abandoned his job at Tel Aviv's LaLa Land restaurant.
``People my age come here because Israel is an empty place.''
Drug Use
Historically, foreigners looking to sate their spiritual
appetites begin at STARCO, an Anjuna hotel and restaurant that
for 30 years has been celebrated as Goa's hippie headquarters.
The sign on the roof still advertises ``Booze, Food & Shelter,''
dished out in that order by Swedish Maggie, who arrived in
Anjuna from Stockholm 24 years ago and never left.
``You must respect the people in the country where you
go,'' Maggie says while a young Indian boy massages her feet in
the garden. ``The Israelis don't. They're real bad, causing
trouble and getting too heavy in the drug-smuggling scene.''
``I'm not concerned about the drug use,'' says Indian
Industry Minister Nath. ``The presence of Muslims in India is
also not a concern. India is not just the world's biggest
democracy, it's the world's rowdiest democracy.''
For Breznitz, a psychologist who once worked for the U.S.
National Institutes of Health, karma kosher is more than a
curious national crotchet with stark parallels to the American
and European hippies who preceded the Israelis to Goa during the
1960s and early 1970s.
Brooklyn Connection
``It's dangerous,'' Breznitz says. ``There are hordes of
young Israelis moving around India and too many of them fail to
blend in and look down on the locals.''
Breznitz's apprehension can be heard during conversations
on the porch of a crumbling stone villa in Anjuna. It's from
this old Portuguese house where Rabbi Meir Alfasi, 22 and an
envoy of the powerful Brooklyn-based Hassidic group Chabad-
Lubavitch, cheerfully spends his days tending two goats, three
chickens and riding a motor scooter equipped with walkie-talkies
around Goa, trying to bring Jews back to Judaism.
As Alfasi sees the scene, the 40,000 Jews wandering through
India are prisoners in a new Babylonian Captivity.
``India is the lowest place on Earth, an impure place in
the middle of idolatry'' Alfasi says. ``Lots of idols and lots
of Jews looking to be assimilated in the local culture. Our
mission is to prevent that from happening.''
`Big Draw'
The Chabad outpost, which includes a kosher kitchen and a
room for a synagogue that holds Goa's only Torah, opened its
doors in 2000. A dozen Jews for Saturday service is considered a
good crowd. The chocolate cake is delightful.
``It's a big draw,'' Alfasi smiles.
Alfasi says Israelis generally remain in India for five to
10 years, adding that the Indian government is now quietly
trying to help him reduce that time by limiting the number of
visas it issues to Israelis and the period they can legally
remain in the country.
``It will be hard for them to find us here, Meir,'' says
Yomtov Yoni, 23, an air-conditioner repairman and Israeli air
force fireman whom Alfasi is trying to bring back into the fold.
``India is huge,'' Yoni adds, straddling a motorcycle.
``Israel is the size of Anjuna Beach. We are free here, Meir.''
``You see, the situation is not so good,'' Alfasi says,
stringing flower necklaces around a 12-foot-high menorah and
preparing a Friday Shabbat dinner under the stars.
Goa Gil
Dancing alone atop a hill behind the nearby village of
Arambol, 2,500 miles (4,022 kilometers) south of Mount Sinai, a
young Israeli man with a mane of curly hair quotes the scripture
according to Goa Gil, a roadie for the San Francisco band the
Sons of Champlain who landed here in 1969 and transformed
himself into a guru.
``The psychedelic revolution never really stopped,'' reads
the gospel according to Goa Gil. ``It just had to go halfway
round the world to the end of a dirt road on a deserted beach,
and there it was allowed to evolve and mutate, without
government pressures.''
As dawn breaks on Saturday, holy cows, Toyota taxis and
sacred elephants clog the filthy, packed-mud path that coils
through Arambol's slums, market stalls and genuine Indian
massage parlors. The vapor of beer, saffron and breakfast
hashish overwhelm the human chaos in the early morning heat.
Indian Healer
Near the bottom of the beach road, a few dirt alleys down
from an Israeli tattoo parlor, is the crisp white tent office of
Ashok Kumar, a fifth-generation ayurvedic Indian healer.
The marquee above Kumar's turbaned head guarantees a remedy
for a long list of afflictions that range from ``leprosy'' to
``typhoid.'' There are potions to relieve ``sexual disorders''
and spices to cure ``madness.'' The line of patients is long.
``I see two or three Israelis every week,'' the 28-year-old
Kumar says. ``They all have the same problem: madness. Their
nervous systems are spent and they need their brains
rebalanced.''
The cost of sanity is $16 to $35, depending on severity.
Back in the cool of his Haifa home, Breznitz likens the
treatment to emancipation.
``They feel entitled to clean their heads from Israel,''
Breznitz says. ``I hope that those who come back return with a
desire to change Israel, but a lot of people don't like new
ideas and are frightened about what these youngsters represent
for the future.''
To contact the reporter on this story:
A. Craig Copetas in Goa, India, at
HHW
The ultra-orthodox whom the IDF "protect" on the West Bank are exempt
from the draft. They study the Pentateuch full time until age 40
instead, steadily reinforcing their conviction that G-d wants this
beastliness to continue indefinitely and refining their sense of
entitlement. In the meantime we Americans finance this crazy project
and suffer the importunities of the "lobby".
Jamie Peters
"HHW" <coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:09e37d52-f691-43a5...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
I posted that as a response to "dsharavii" and "Doodoo" who both disclaim my
and your assertion that Israelis are avoiding the IDF or feel a need to
escape from Israel's armed-camp atmosphere.
Anyway, I think most of America will always be under the mistaken notion
that Israel is some kind of a forward-base in the Middle East for military
purposes. That is just not so. America cannot use Israel for anything other
than and advanced storage depot of weapons caches -- which it does do
unofficially.
The minute an American military unit steps foot into Israel, the surrounding
Arab nations will use it as an excuse to raise oil prices, again!
Israel is -USELESS- as an American forward base. Yet, politicians on both
extremes still try to sell that idea to all of America.
Dr. Ron Paul was the only politician with enough balls to say we should get
out of Iraq AND Israel.
One thing I know for certain: you can never believe anything any of these
nasty Jews say about anything! They have been stealing money, and land, and
goods, and the truth, from all of humanity since the first Jew landed in
Palestine -- and I mean like about 7,000 years ago.
ElParedon
"Jamie Peters" <jas...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xO2dnaRpM4dVNrfV...@earthlink.com...
Jordan to the Sharm and beyond. Some of them are peddling dope, others
are phony money changers, pimps and ordinary thieves. I saw a group of these
bums in Dahab converging on a tour bus with their hands expended, begging.
They will never admit that they are Israelis, instead they call themselves
Russian, gypsies,Romanians, etc, What a race of nohopers
Jamie Peters
"ElParedon" <ser...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:NRMWj.3930$Kk3....@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
Something that comes natural to them I'm sure.
> They will never admit that they are Israelis, instead they call themselves
> Russian, gypsies,Romanians, etc, What a race of nohopers
>
>
Indeed...
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>
> I posted that as a response to "dsharavii" and "Doodoo" who both disclaim my
> and your assertion that Israelis are avoiding the IDF or feel a need to
> escape from Israel's armed-camp atmosphere.
The article speaks for itself. Israel is in the midst of a traumatic
time more intense than our Vietnam War. Some of the same patterns are
visible if only reflected in the Goa article. America finally had to
end it. To think that Israel will not have to make an equivalent
decision is nonsensical.
Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
congenial to a painfully average person. He is also uneducated. But
his greatest disability is his idee fixe, that he is the protector of
the Jewish people. Hence his handle, Department of Defense. As if the
owners of the Island of Manhattan need him. He's an embarrassment.
> Anyway, I think most of America will always be under the mistaken notion
> that Israel is some kind of a forward-base in the Middle East for military
> purposes. That is just not so. America cannot use Israel for anything other
> than an advanced storage depot of weapons caches -- which it does do
> unofficially.
This is unquestionably true. One recalls the Gulf War as the finest
example. Not only could we not benefit from our "ally" militarily in
any way because of the effect it would have on Muslims, she repeatedly
endangered the delicate coalition put together by Bush I by
threatening to attack Iraq herself thus forcing us to divert our air
assets to the nearly fruitless effort to find and attack scuds. She
has never had an appropriate sense of her role in the relationship,
that of a client state who must take the interests of the patron into
account. As to the caches, they are never intended to be brought back
to the US. Ultimately they are another form of off the books aid to
Israel.
> The minute an American military unit steps foot into Israel, the surrounding
> Arab nations will use it as an excuse to raise oil prices, again!
>
> Israel is -USELESS- as an American forward base. Yet, politicians on both
> extremes still try to sell that idea to all of America.
The most telling false image is that of Israel being a stationary
"aircraft carrier" for use against our joint enemies. The
unsophisticated 60% of Americans believe that BS. Making air strikes
on Arab countries or Iran from Israel is absolutely out of the
question and both sides know it. Israel is not a military ally of
significant value and has not been one since the end of the Cold War.
And now we are entering into another Cold War with Iran which could
last generations. Is that because she poses a threat to the United
States? Nooooo, it's because Israel and her lobby perceive Iran to be
a threat to Israel and want US to "take the Mullahs out" for her.
>
> Dr. Ron Paul was the only politician with enough balls to say we should get
> out of Iraq AND Israel.
Paul's hard not to like. His honesty is spectacular. And so is his
systematic approach to analysis of these problems. But he's not alone.
Pat Buchanan has been saying these same things about our Israel policy
for a quarter century. He understands these issues very well. But both
Paul and Buchanan are too far right for my tastes.
>
> One thing I know for certain: you can never believe anything any of these
> nasty Jews say about anything! They have been stealing money, and land, and
> goods, and the truth, from all of humanity since the first Jew landed in
> Palestine -- and I mean like about 7,000 years ago.
Each of us travels his own path. I've lived in the upper Middle West
and have only known a few Jews personally. Most of them were
university professors. Admirable men. Some negative impressions came
from a life time of reading, but I always tried to "consider the
source" and give the benefit of the doubt, etc., as a social liberal
does. I watched post 1967 Israeli policy quite closely and gradually
developed a distaste for both it and for the propaganda including lots
of whining which veiled what was actually happening. At the same time
I absorbed the taboos or should I say became aware of their existence.
Jewish people and Israel were not to be criticized in public. But as
time went on and I came to discover how deeply and disadvantageously
we were involved with Israel and how untouchable she was politically
in the US, I finally decided to reject the social pressures and speak
out. One thing I know for certain, the American people have got to
come to understand that WE must regain control of our relationship
with Israel. Her American lobby must stop corrupting our Congress and
administrations. And she must get the Hell out of the West Bank. She
must understand that she has no choice but to make a fair and even
generous settlement with the Palestinian people. Her long term
relationship with America and perhaps even her survival will depend on
it.
Jamie Peters
University professors aside, I've known some (Jewish) who were reasonable
and well balanced politically. My problem is primarily with Zionist goals,
but I am also becoming more and more disenchanted with the whole
Jewish-Collective in the so-called new-world-order.
I see in the politics of Israel, and in Jewish-Zionism, an underlying thread
of basic cultural selfishness, that in my opinion is the major catalyst for
Israel's political/cultural chauvinism. The more people like "dsharavii"
post their religious/cultural tripe, the more I am inclined to blame the
basic
'Jewishness" of all these Zionistic political malcontents.
The historic trends are clearly there. But until just the last two months, I
could/would not recognize that deep within Jewish culture there is a tacit
belief or understanding that as Jews they are permitted to take, steal, rob,
and lie, all they want to meet their net goals. Within their manifest
culture -- racial, ethnic, religious, tribal, and monetarily pragmatic --
they all figuratively believe they are God's chosen few, and are therefore
exempt from the rules of decency and morality the rest of us must try to
follow.
The Jewish history is full of tripping points where as a people, religion,
or a tribe, they have had God's permission to steal, loot, and plunder.
Culturally they have repeated this scenario time after time -- in ancient
Mesopotamia, Canaan, Egypt, the Sinai, and what should currently be simply
'Palestine.' These people, if you can call them that, are insidiously
stiff-necked, and lack cultural self-discipline when it comes to co-existing
with other tribal groups.
I am not very religious, but Jesus -- one of their own -- commented on the
ancient Judaic proclivity to be hypocritical, money grubbing, self involved,
and as he called them -- collectively -- a generation of vipers! He at one
point took up a whip to drive the more greedy religious vendors from the
center of their ancient regional religion. Nothing much has changed with
them since Jesus was among them.
The only difference is there are groups of people called "Christians" who
know and realize the inequities of basic Judaic culture. Unfortunately most
Christians think they are supposed to "turn the other cheek" to this
nonsense. ...just not so!
DoD
> On May 14, 2:20 pm, "Jamie Peters" <jasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > I posted that as a response to "dsharavii" and "Doodoo" who both disclaim my
> > and your assertion that Israelis are avoiding the IDF or feel a need to
> > escape from Israel's armed-camp atmosphere.
>
> The article speaks for itself. Israel is in the midst of a traumatic
> time more intense than our Vietnam War. Some of the same patterns are
> visible if only reflected in the Goa article. America finally had to
> end it. To think that Israel will not have to make an equivalent
> decision is nonsensical.
>
> Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> sense.
Just to seal this point... This is watsons level of watson's group of
posters... :::snicker::::
This is who he on the level with...
Loooooser.... What was your cotillion like?? A bunch of backwater
snaggle toothe idiots doing there thang and you just sitting back
cheering them on? This is your level... These are your
contemporaries.... What a sad sack of shit you are...
B.H. Cramer
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5e041dd9-578c-4137...@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Poor, poor, sad little doodoo. The green-eyed monster has struck you with
some force.
The only person who responds to you with anything but scorn, derision and
ridicule is suzie.
When are you going to get it through your vapid, thick skull, that you are
an uneducated drongo, fit for nothing but being the target for ridicule, and
an extreme embarrassment to the yids.
DoD
> "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
LOL... this is another response from a watson supporter.. a sad sack
of shit that has
to morph 100 times a day to get anyone to listen to him, because
everyone human has him
killfiled.. THIS is a watson
groupie...LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
An aussie degenerate..watson gets the seal of approval from neo-nazis
from down-under.. eee-yoi, your family must be proud of you... Do you
also blurt out at your parties that "yids are lice"
:::snicker::::
I bet you and your friends are just a hoot, that is when you climb out
of the gutter... loser....
B.H. Cramer
Afraid you're lying through your teeth, you desperate, dumb as dog shit,
dumbkunt.
THIS is a watson
groupie...LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
An aussie degenerate..watson gets the seal of approval from neo-nazis
from down-under.. eee-yoi, your family must be proud of you... Do you
also blurt out at your parties that "yids are lice"
Be nice if that had been taken in context, doodoodumbkunt.
:::snicker::::
I bet you and your friends are just a hoot, that is when you climb out
of the gutter... loser....
You can only aspire to raise yourself high enough to even reach the gutter,
doodoodumbkunt.
You and suzie are the joke of Usenet, but please don't cease posting. You
are classic examples of stupidity personified.
Jamie Peters
"B.H. Cramer" <Iamhre@them'oment.bizz> wrote in message
news:DJSdnclL2957YbbV...@giganews.com...
So Doodoo thinks all Yids are lice?
Hmmmmmm... I thought he was their major champion on this NG.
Maybe he's had a few too many; is there a heat wave in Kansas..? It seem
Toto has gone mad! Just wondering out loud....
Count 1
> sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> congenial to a painfully average person.
Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian conflict
than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
Your sanctimonious, self righteous, bullshit is - and will be - forever
dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
errors, even after promising to do so.
Need a reminder old boy? Here is the exchange which will forever expose you
as a complete fraud.
HHW:
> Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
> acknowledge that I was wrong. Go ahead, put up my false posts about
> Israel's intentions and actions. Remember to distinguish my opinions
> from false information.
C1:
You wrote;
"While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic
position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
In this post you are factually incorrect. Israel is not trying to ethnically
cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an opinion,
you state this is a "fact".
I'll let you try to mentally reconcile the dichotomy between the security
barrier as an imposed final settlement and an ongoing program of ethnic
cleansing.
And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
wrong.
***
HHW
> On May 14, 10:22 pm, HHW <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 14, 2:20 pm, "Jamie Peters" <jasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> > > I posted that as a response to "dsharavii" and "Doodoo" who both disclaim my
> > > and your assertion that Israelis are avoiding the IDF or feel a need to
> > > escape from Israel's armed-camp atmosphere.
>
> > The article speaks for itself. Israel is in the midst of a traumatic
> > time more intense than our Vietnam War. Some of the same patterns are
> > visible if only reflected in the Goa article. America finally had to
> > end it. To think that Israel will not have to make an equivalent
> > decision is nonsensical.
>
> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> > sense.
Here's some slogans for you, "David":
Israel, get the Hell out of the West Bank!
AIPAC, stop corrupting our Congress!
Campus Watch, stop this shameful effort to destroy academic freedom!
America, stop throwing away our future in these senseless wars for
Israel!
America, give Israel rational choices between a purely defensive
alliance and continued savaging of the Palestinian people.
You are an American aren't you? Surely you see the logic inherent in
them.
What is it about me having a conversation with someone you don't like
which makes you completely forget about the welfare of your native
country? I suggest that if you need to attack me, do it on the merits
of what I say. Just as I am not you, I am not any other person here
either.
DoD
What I don't get is that he claims he is not anti-Jewish, but all he
does is take pot shots at Israel and things that are Jewish to
diminish any value of anything connected towards Jews and the only
people that take him seriously are people that are outwardly against
Jews, and regular folk like you and me, although we don't believe Jews
are above reproach, we would like to see some sort of fair standards
apply towards the whole thing, and we are seen as shabbos goys, (read
nigger lovers) according to watson and his band of anti-Jewish trolls.
I guess it just amazes me that watson doesn't see a bigot in the
mirror when he goes to shave. Perhaps he does, and he is just that
much of a coward not to admit it here.
Kosher Cunny
Do you believe Jew are above reproach Doodoo..?
Kosher Cunny
Sorry Doodoo, I was hastily trying to take another call.
Correction:
Do you believe Jews are above reproach..? [ ] yes [ ] no
Very simple question...
fla...@verizon.net
On 15-May-2008, "Count 1" <omnipi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
Translation: she & DoD kick the carapaces of jew-haters every time they
post.
>
> Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian conflict
> than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
> intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> Your sanctimonious, self righteous, bullshit is - and will be - forever
> dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
> errors, even after promising to do so.
>
> Need a reminder old boy? Here is the exchange which will forever expose
> you as a complete fraud.
>
Well, ONE of them...
>
> HHW:
> > Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
> > acknowledge that I was wrong.
SINCE WHEN?
Is this liar actually stupid enough to think we're going to fall for this?
> >Go ahead, put up my false posts about
> > Israel's intentions and actions. Remember to distinguish my opinions
> > from false information.
>
>
> C1:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3st4b5
>
>
> You wrote;
>
>
> "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
> forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic
> position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
> ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
>
>
> In this post you are factually incorrect. Israel is not trying to
> ethnically
> cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an opinion,
> you state this is a "fact".
>
>
> I'll let you try to mentally reconcile the dichotomy between the security
> barrier as an imposed final settlement and an ongoing program of ethnic
> cleansing.
>
>
> And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
> wrong.
>
Just don't hold your breath.
Susan
>
> ***
HHW
> On May 15, 9:18 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> > Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian conflict
> > than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
Hilarious on both counts. I love watching you having to do this
whether you like it or not.
> > Your sanctimonious, self righteous, bullshit is - and will be - forever
> > dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
> > errors, even after promising to do so.
Will you dance on your roof when we attack Iran?
> > Need a reminder old boy? Here is the exchange which will forever expose you
> > as a complete fraud.
>
> > HHW:
>
> > > Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
> > > acknowledge that I was wrong. Go ahead, put up my false posts about
> > > Israel's intentions and actions. Remember to distinguish my opinions
> > > from false information.
>
> > C1:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/3st4b5
I responded exhaustively. In any event the url is not hot. Paste my
entire response and then make your argument that it is not
responsive.
>
> > You wrote;
>
> > "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
> > forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic
> > position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
> > ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
>
> > In this post you are factually incorrect.
Prove it. You've reached your conclusion so expose your "facts".
Israel is not trying to ethnically
> > cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an opinion,
> > you state this is a "fact".
This too is a simple assertion. I'm supposed to run around trying to
find something which will please YOU? Not likely. I don't run errands
for anyone. This isn't a Step 'n Fetchit routine. But I'd be very
happy to actually debate you on the subject.
Nevertheless it is a fact which I "find" in the sense that juries
"find facts" even though as with a jury those facts must be drawn from
disparate evidence. The Israeli government has never admitted what was
its obvious intention, not even in 1948, so one has little choice but
to use the available evidence. You would have us believe that the
question is incapable of resolution on a factual basis. That's oddly
obtuse as Jamie said recently of DoD. I would LOVE to debate this with
you but you will not do that. We both know why. Your position is
essentially indefensible.
Zionist strategy (but not goals) had to be changed from that used in
1947-48. In 1967 international conditions had changed and the
Palestinian national movement had flowered. Israel could get away with
cleansing only a couple of hundred thousand civilians. The strategy
was altered and it became a *creeping* ethnic cleansing. Hillel
essentially admitted it a few days ago though we don't need that to
prove it. Now, because that strategy too is in the process of being
defeated by the Palestinian people and their allies, you pretend that
that it never existed. Yet the evidence for it is overwhelming. Yes, I
very much look forward to a cool, rational debate with you and you
alone on this issue. Don't forget to bring your lunch. And be sure to
consult Deborah's little finger.
> > I'll let you try to mentally reconcile the dichotomy between the security
> > barrier as an imposed final settlement and an ongoing program of ethnic
> > cleansing.
It proves at a glance that the *policy,* of creeping annexation and
ethnic cleansing not only existed but has failed. It is about to be
replaced by an overall compromise. Recall that the wall is IN the west
Bank with Arabs on one side and Jews on the other. Of course there
were other purposes, water theft, etc.
>
> > And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
> > wrong.
Hilarious. Quit playing games. No preconditions. Let's debate it what
the Israeli policy is/was. Let the best man win. Factually incorrect.
That's a joke.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, David. I'll answer you here.
> What I don't get is that he claims he is not anti-Jewish, but all he
> does is take pot shots at Israel and things that are Jewish to
> diminish any value of anything connected towards Jews
99% of what I do here consists of criticism of *Israel's policy* and
the conduct of its American lobby. Where cultrual characteristics have
been mentioned there's been a direct policy connection. I have had
something to about the UO as colonists on the West Bank.
I'm not competent to say much of anything about Jewishness. I was also
raised and educated too to detest racism. I believe racism should be
fought wherever it is found. That doesn't mean, David, that on
principle I won't talk to someone you deem racist. That is principled.
You will not foreclose my options. I'll be judged by what I say here,
not by your opinion of some third party.
Like anyone I occasionally make mistakes. But I detest lying. It's
sleazy and I don't like having to look over my shoulder. Perhaps years
of having to live a life of professional discipline made a difference
there but that's positive even if irrelevant.
Face it, David. I don't demean Jews or any ethnic group/minority. It's
a matter of life long principle for me. I learned to reject all forms
of racism when I was a child. I do criticize the behavior of
institutions and foreign countries when their policy is racist and/or
oppressive, and especially when it is contrary to the best interests
of America and her people, all of them, including her Jewish minority.
You persist in such simplicity that if you can't call me a racist, or
use the guilt by association trip, you have nothing else to say in
response to my arguments. You are contemptible intellectually and
morally too but as I've said, when I respond to you I'm actually
speaking to a larger audience.
and the only
> people that take him seriously are people that are outwardly against
> Jews, and regular folk like you and me, although we don't believe Jews
> are above reproach, we would like to see some sort of fair standards
> apply towards the whole thing, and we are seen as shabbos goys, (read
> nigger lovers) according to watson and his band of anti-Jewish trolls.
You too see the end coming but haven't the wit to change your
terminology. You still say "Jews" are not above reproach. Jews are not
the subject. I don't reproach Jews as a culture. You're not subtle
enough to understand. Deborah, however, does understand and she
absolutely hates the distinction. She knows that if it is admitted as
legitimate, the anti-Semitism weapons can't be be used against people
of good will and, especially, against people in public life, ranging
from public intellectuals to politicians.
Fair standards, yes, exactly. But fairness includes even-handedness,
compensation and the end of Zionist territorial gain by a formal
declaration that it has been fulfilled through a compromise. That
means Israel having internationally defined borders beyond which she
commits to having no ambitions whatever--to the end of time. The
equivalent binding admissions and foreswearing of their territorial
and ideological demands will come from the Palestinians and all the
Arab states.
Yet you have the record of a knee-jerk Zionist who is incapable of
admitting that there must be a land for peace, two-state settlement in
the Middle-East which features fairness to and compensation for the
*primary victims*. This is a moral conclusion you seem incapable of
reaching. You won't even admit that the Palestinians are in fact the
primary victims. That's too much commitment to admit of much fairness.
> I guess it just amazes me that watson doesn't see a bigot in the
> mirror when he goes to shave. Perhaps he does, and he is just that
> much of a coward not to admit it here.
Wasn't Count 1 nice to you this afternoon. Maybe not really, eh?
dsha...@hotmail.com
As HHW has stated, he believes everything he posts, even if it's all
bs. And most of it IS bs.
"I actually believe what I said even if I can't prove all of it and
some is based on instinct."
From: HHW <coaster132000 @yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c25df1e3-21dd-4f5f-
aed9-314...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
> I'll let you try to mentally reconcile the dichotomy between the security
> barrier as an imposed final settlement and an ongoing program of ethnic
> cleansing.
>
> And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
> wrong.
> ***
Don't hold your breath.
Deborah
HHW
> On 15-May-2008, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> Translation: she & DoD kick the carapaces of jew-haters every time they
> post
Thank you for raising the question of your anomalous self,
Susan,.....but then there is nothing really wrong with cake decorating
and Dugeons and Dragons, and revolting public disclosures of your
pedestrian private life, nothing at all. So I'll be kind today.
>
> > Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian conflict
> > than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> > Your sanctimonious, self righteous, bullshit is - and will be - forever
> > dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
> > errors, even after promising to do so.
>
> > Need a reminder old boy? Here is the exchange which will forever expose
> > you as a complete fraud.
>
> Well, ONE of them...
You just can't remember them, right?
>
>
>
> > HHW:
> > > Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
> > > acknowledge that I was wrong.
>
> SINCE WHEN?
Since always. I haven't the slightest compunctions against correcting
factual errors. I actually always look forward to it. It's very good
policy to keep your record clean.
>
> Is this liar actually stupid enough to think we're going to fall for this?
Your fall has already been documented.
>
>
>
> > >Go ahead, put up my false posts about
> > > Israel's intentions and actions. Remember to distinguish my opinions
> > > from false information.
>
> > C1:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/3st4b5
>
> > You wrote;
>
> > "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
> > forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic
> > position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
> > ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
>
> > In this post you are factually incorrect. Israel is not trying to
> > ethnically
> > cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an opinion,
> > you state this is a "fact".
>
> > I'll let you try to mentally reconcile the dichotomy between the security
> > barrier as an imposed final settlement and an ongoing program of ethnic
> > cleansing.
>
> > And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
> > wrong.
>
> Just don't hold your breath.
>
> Susan
You'll see my response to Ratner if you look. You may contribute if
you like but I'm really looking forward to dealing with him.
>
>
>
> > ***
HHW
wrote:
> On May 15, 7:18 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
Snip
>
> Don't hold your breath.
>
> Deborah
That's good adivce, Ratner.
Count 1
> On May 15, 12:18 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 15, 9:18 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
>> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack
>> > > of
>> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
>> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>>
>> > Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian
>> > conflict
>> > than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
>> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> Hilarious on both counts. I love watching you having to do this
> whether you like it or not.
?? Non sequitur. Nothing compels me to tell you the truth.
>> > Your sanctimonious, self righteous, bullshit is - and will be - forever
>> > dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
>> > errors, even after promising to do so.
>
> Will you dance on your roof when we attack Iran?
"We"? What makes you think Canada would be involved in such an attack?
Will you dance on yours when Iran attacks Israel?
>> > Need a reminder old boy? Here is the exchange which will forever expose
>> > you
>> > as a complete fraud.
>>
>> > HHW:
>>
>> > > Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
>> > > acknowledge that I was wrong. Go ahead, put up my false posts about
>> > > Israel's intentions and actions. Remember to distinguish my opinions
>> > > from false information.
>>
>> > C1:
>>
>> >http://tinyurl.com/3st4b5
>
> I responded exhaustively.
Please send the original response to my email address. That way I'm sure not
to miss it.
> In any event the url is not hot.
Wrong. The URL works fine. I just rechecked it.
>> > "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
>> > forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic
>> > position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
>> > ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
>>
>> > In this post you are factually incorrect.
>
> Prove it. You've reached your conclusion so expose your "facts".
The population growth rate is 2.91% - that means there are almost 3 more
people for every 100 persons in the West Bank, every year. A birthrate of 30
per 1000. There is no evidence of an ongoing program of ethnic cleansing, no
mass refugee migrations, Jordan and Syria do not acknowledge 'ethnic
cleansing' is taking place and are not asking for UN intervention on their
behalf due to a program of ethnic cleansing.
On top of that every piece of population data gathered by any
semi-respectable or better organization shows the population of the West
Bank Palestinians growing, not decreasing as would logically be expected
from a 'cleansing' program.
This information is widely available online, so your best excuse is
laziness, but I suspect something else causes you to post incorrect
information about Israel and state - without support - they are 'facts'.
> Israel is not trying to ethnically
>> > cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an
>> > opinion,
>> > you state this is a "fact".
>
> This too is a simple assertion. I'm supposed to run around trying to
> find something which will please YOU?
No, you are supposed to be able to support the words you type. It's called
'self respect'. You said it is a 'fact' that Israel is 'ethnically
cleansing' the West Bank, so now I am asking you to prove it or - as you
said you would - acknowledge you were wrong.
> Nevertheless it is a fact which I "find" in the sense that juries
> "find facts" even though as with a jury those facts must be drawn from
> disparate evidence.
Then you need to acknowledge that you did not express yourself correctly.
You did not write that you *sense* it's a fact that Israel is ethnically
cleansing the West Bank, you simply said it was a 'fact'.
Then - of course - we have to realize when reading your material there is a
very good chance that you are simply not expressing yourself very well.
Odd trait, for a lawyer.
The Israeli government has never admitted what was
> its obvious intention, not even in 1948, so one has little choice but
> to use the available evidence.
I couldn't agree more with that last bit. All available evidence shows there
is nothing like an ongoing program of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. I
very much look forward to the day you actually do use available evidence to
come to your conclusions. I get bored of the backpedaling you engage in when
you find yourself embarassed.
You would have us believe that the
> question is incapable of resolution on a factual basis.
<cue Twilight Zone music>
No, I will have you believe that all the facts show there is no ethnic
cleansing. The question has already been resolved on a factual basis. I did
so above.
I would LOVE to debate this with
> you but you will not do that. We both know why. Your position is
> essentially indefensible.
There is nothing to debate. There is no current program by Israel to
ethnically cleanse the West Bank. Period.
I will not get into a discussion with you and your 'feelings' about Israel.
If something isn't a fact, then don't state it as such, and if you do,
acknowledge it when people like me correct you.
>> > And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
>> > wrong.
>
> Hilarious. Quit playing games.
No games - you were wrong. The facts do not support your statement that
Israel is ethnically cleansing the West Bank. You have posted nothing in
support of your statement, and unless you do so in your reply I can only
assume you never will.
That makes you useless.
Count 1
As HHW has stated, he believes everything he posts, even if it's all
bs. And most of it IS bs.
"I actually believe what I said even if I can't prove all of it and
some is based on instinct."
***
I know, but it's still fun to watch him twist in the wind.
Jamie Peters
> On May 15, 12:18 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 15, 9:18 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
>> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack
>> > > of
>> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
>> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>>
>> > Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian
>> > conflict
>> > than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
>> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> Hilarious on both counts. I love watching you having to do this
> whether you like it or not.
>
>> > Your sanctimonious, self righteous, bullshit is - and will be - forever
>> > dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
>> > errors, even after promising to do so.
>
> Will you dance on your roof when we attack Iran?
If he were a rich man... yada, yada, yada... dee, dee, dee!
[snipped]
Jamie Peters
"dsha...@gmail.com" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:71379db1-50e4-4458...@l17g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Oh God! Here comes the instinctual knee-jerking barrage of
obsessive-compulsive mind rot!
Sharavi, you are a liar, your twist peoples words, and you attribute things
to them they never say -- and you know nothing of what you think you know.
It's all empty and foul Zionist hot air! Why don't you get a job blowing up
balloons in a circus sideshow.
DoD
Or wallow in the mud with the other trolls and feel sorry for him.
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cf3ab6d6-b9dc-49ee...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On May 15, 12:18 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On May 15, 9:18 am, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> >> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack
> >> > > of
> >> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> >> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> >> > Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian
> >> > conflict
> >> > than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
> >> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> > Hilarious on both counts. I love watching you having to do this
> > whether you like it or not.
>
> ?? Non sequitur. Nothing compels me to tell you the truth.
Apparently not.
> >> > Your sanctimonious, self righteous, bullshit is - and will be - forever
> >> > dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
> >> > errors, even after promising to do so.
>
> > Will you dance on your roof when we attack Iran?
>
> "We"? What makes you think Canada would be involved in such an attack?
Will you dance on your roof when America attacks Iran?
> Will you dance on yours when Iran attacks Israel?
Of course not, it's not an American characteristic. And I'm committed
to the long term security of Israel.
What is it that makes you believe that the Iranians can not be
deterred by Israel's nukes and conventional military might?
> >> > Need a reminder old boy? Here is the exchange which will forever expose
> >> > you
> >> > as a complete fraud.
>
> >> > HHW:
>
> >> > > Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
> >> > > acknowledge that I was wrong. Go ahead, put up my false posts about
> >> > > Israel's intentions and actions. Remember to distinguish my opinions
> >> > > from false information.
>
> >> > C1:
>
> >> >http://tinyurl.com/3st4b5
>
> > I responded exhaustively.
>
> Please send the original response to my email address. That way I'm sure not
> to miss it.
Look for it yourself. In fact I think I did it twice.
>
> > In any event the url is not hot.
>
> Wrong. The URL works fine. I just rechecked it.
Correct, I was looking at it in another's post.
>
> >> > "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
> >> > forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic
> >> > position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
> >> > ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
>
> >> > In this post you are factually incorrect.
>
> > Prove it. You've reached your conclusion so expose your "facts".
>
> The population growth rate is 2.91% - that means there are almost 3 more
> people for every 100 persons in the West Bank, every year. A birthrate of 30
> per 1000. There is no evidence of an ongoing program of ethnic cleansing, no
> mass refugee migrations, Jordan and Syria do not acknowledge 'ethnic
> cleansing' is taking place and are not asking for UN intervention on their
> behalf due to a program of ethnic cleansing.
>
> On top of that every piece of population data gathered by any
> semi-respectable or better organization shows the population of the West
> Bank Palestinians growing, not decreasing as would logically be expected
> from a 'cleansing' program.
>
> This information is widely available online, so your best excuse is
> laziness, but I suspect something else causes you to post incorrect
> information about Israel and state - without support - they are 'facts'.
>
> > Israel is not trying to ethnically
> >> > cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an
> >> > opinion,
> >> > you state this is a "fact".
Ethnic cleansing is the obvious policy. It was concocted in the 1930s
as foreshadowed in Zionist doctrine. It was carried out brutally if
not with complete success in 1947-48. It did not fully succeeded but
approximately 750,000 were driven out. In 1967 the unchanged ethnic
cleansing policy drove out Palestinians in six figures from the West
Bank and roughly 60,000 from Golan. Once the war was over that could
no longer be done because conditions had changed internationally.
I suggest you use your population growth analysis on that part of the
West Bank which is now on the israeli side of the apartheid wall. That
is the result of an ethnic cleansing, just one of a more subtle
design, one fraught with legalisms. Then there is the brutal nature of
the occupation which Hillel essentially admits is designed to drive
people to despair so that they will simply leave even though they have
no place to go. The use of the term ethnic cleansing to describe
Israeli policy is perfectly legitimate. It's the dominant analytical
paradigm today along with apartheid which is analogous. That's why the
occupation is coming to an end and Israel and her bronze age colonial
class will be leaving the West Bank soon. What Olmert's doing is all
the buzz in Israel herself where everything is discussed candidly.
It's just in the United States where there is pressure not to discuss
such things. You're part of that effort. Ditto Debortah, David, Rosen
of detested memory, etc.
> > This too is a simple assertion. I'm supposed to run around trying to
> > find something which will please YOU?
>
> No, you are supposed to be able to support the words you type. It's called
> 'self respect'. You said it is a 'fact' that Israel is 'ethnically
> cleansing' the West Bank, so now I am asking you to prove it or - as you
> said you would - acknowledge you were wrong.
See above.
>
> > Nevertheless it is a fact which I "find" in the sense that juries
> > "find facts" even though as with a jury those facts must be drawn from
> > disparate evidence.
>
> Then you need to acknowledge that you did not express yourself correctly.
Hardly, you need to develop a broader use of the language.
> You did not write that you *sense* it's a fact that Israel is ethnically
> cleansing the West Bank, you simply said it was a 'fact'.
And juries don't "sense" what they find as facts. They listen to the
evidence and apply their life experience and intelligence.
> Then - of course - we have to realize when reading your material there is a
> very good chance that you are simply not expressing yourself very well.
>
> Odd trait, for a lawyer.
You and DoD are in conflict. I'm sure it pleases you to have to track
the likes of him to stay consistent.
> The Israeli government has never admitted what was
> > its obvious intention, not even in 1948, so one has little choice but
> > to use the available evidence.
>
> I couldn't agree more with that last bit. All available evidence shows there
> is nothing like an ongoing program of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.
Ilan Pappe uses my language, or rather I use his. He is a professional
historian, a disciplined finder of facts.
I
> very much look forward to the day you actually do use available evidence to
> come to your conclusions. I get bored of the backpedaling you engage in when
> you find yourself embarassed.
Embarrassed? I've been enjoying my interactions with you very much. I
stand by them and am happy that they are a part of the permanent
record of America's struggle to get her house back in democratic
order. What I do here is political. I'm widely read enough to justify
it.
>
> You would have us believe that the
> > question is incapable of resolution on a factual basis.
>
> <cue Twilight Zone music>
> No, I will have you believe that all the facts show there is no ethnic
> cleansing. The question has already been resolved on a factual basis. I did
> so above.
You simply made a naked assertion. And then tried to convince your
readership because the Palestinian population growth was large no
crime had been committed. You dissembled.
>
> I would LOVE to debate this with
>> > you but you will not do that. We both know why. Your position is
> > essentially indefensible.
>
> There is nothing to debate. There is no current program by Israel to
> ethnically cleanse the West Bank. Period.
Note the weasle word, "current". Israel is in fact getting ready to
withdraw from the West Bank. Not because she wants to. She's being
forced out.
>
> I will not get into a discussion with you and your 'feelings' about Israel.
> If something isn't a fact, then don't state it as such, and if you do,
> acknowledge it when people like me correct you.
You have yet to correct me. Israel's post 1967 history has contained
one inhumane abomination after another. The entire world knows it and
as a result she is a pariah. You would like to think that's the result
of Anti-Semitism. Only Jews believe that today, and a minority of them
at that.
>
> >> > And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
> >> > wrong.
>
> > Hilarious. Quit playing games.
>
> No games - you were wrong. The facts do not support your statement that
> Israel is ethnically cleansing the West Bank. You have posted nothing in
> support of your statement, and unless you do so in your reply I can only
> assume you never will.
You won't read Pappe, Shlaim, Morris, etc. You might try Stephen
Lendman.
>
> That makes you useless.
I'm a tiny, tiny, infinitesimally tiny part of the movement which is
forcing Israel out of the West Bank. I'm just a scintilla, a nano-
something but I'm making a contribution. The fact that you come here
to fight with me is proof of it.
HHW
Enjoy. Israel is leaving the West Bank.
hille...@yahoo.com
> Or wallow in the mud with the other trolls and feel sorry for him.
I don't feel sorry for HHW.
I feel sorry for Mirelle because she is just too crazy
to understand what she does and she really can't
do any better.
But HHW can do better. All he has to do is to stop
being so lazy and do some homework before he posts.
Count 1
HHW;
> >> > "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
> >> > forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the
> >> > strategic
> >> > position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
> >> > ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
C1;
> >> > In this post you are factually incorrect.
HHW;
> > Prove it. You've reached your conclusion so expose your "facts".
C1;
> The population growth rate is 2.91% - that means there are almost 3 more
> people for every 100 persons in the West Bank, every year. A birthrate of
> 30
> per 1000. There is no evidence of an ongoing program of ethnic cleansing,
> no
> mass refugee migrations, Jordan and Syria do not acknowledge 'ethnic
> cleansing' is taking place and are not asking for UN intervention on their
> behalf due to a program of ethnic cleansing.
>
> On top of that every piece of population data gathered by any
> semi-respectable or better organization shows the population of the West
> Bank Palestinians growing, not decreasing as would logically be expected
> from a 'cleansing' program.
>
> This information is widely available online, so your best excuse is
> laziness, but I suspect something else causes you to post incorrect
> information about Israel and state - without support - they are 'facts'.
HHW;
no reply.
C1;
> > Israel is not trying to ethnically
> >> > cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an
> >> > opinion,
> >> > you state this is a "fact".
HHW
***
Ethnic cleansing is the obvious policy. It was concocted in the 1930s
as foreshadowed in Zionist doctrine. It was carried out brutally if
not with complete success in 1947-48.
***
C1;
Once again I see you have to be reminded of your own words - the issue we
are discussing.
You wrote;
"While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute forget
that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic position of
israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to ethnically cleanse the
West Bank* (...)"
You can't change the argument and expect me not to notice. You were speaking
in the present tense - not past tense. Ethnic cleansing is obviously not the
policy for three reasons;
1) It isn't happening
2) It's incongrous with a security barrier
3) It isn't happening.
HHW;
***
The use of the term ethnic cleansing to describe
Israeli policy is perfectly legitimate.
***
C1;
Then you should be able to point to one piece of hard information which
shows that it's happening. Not that it did happen, or might have happened,
but is happening right now as you stated.
The fact that you cannot - and have repeatedly not been able to - is because
none exists. The fact that you have failed to provide *anything* to back up
your claim suggests that you feel it is perfectly legitimate to post
anything you want to even if you know you cannot prove it. That makes you a
poor source for anyone to read to form any kind of opinion of the Israeli /
Palestine conflict.
And I'll be sure to remind your 'readers' (lol) of that everytime you decide
to be a sanctimonious jerk.
Count 1
On May 15, 5:44 pm, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ***
> As HHW has stated, he believes everything he posts, even if it's all
> bs. And most of it IS bs.
>
> "I actually believe what I said even if I can't prove all of it and
> some is based on instinct."
> ***
>
> I know, but it's still fun to watch him twist in the wind.
***
Enjoy. Israel is leaving the West Bank.
***
She'll keep what she needs for her security. She won it, afterall. She's
certainly under no imperative to respect borders Arabs didn't in 1967.
DoD
Yeah, but that would require telling the truth, and that is something
he is incapable of.
I just feel sorry for a man with that much hate in his heart. He must
be one miserable dude.
HHW
I'll be back to you Hillel. I'm a bit busy right now.
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
That's not the law but then Israel's not bound by it, right?
HHW
They need to get the Hell out of the West Bank, David.
HHW
May 15 at 7:43
Eli Grubman
>
>On 15-May-2008, "Count 1" <omnipi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
>> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
>> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
>> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>>
>Translation: she & DoD kick the carapaces of jew-haters every time they
>post.
Only a bgot would fail to capitalise "jew", you thick Irish cunt.
Eli
Kosher Cunny
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 19:55:45 GMT, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >On 15-May-2008, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> >> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> >> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> >> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> >Translation: she & DoD kick the carapaces of jew-haters every time they
> >post.
>
> Only a bgot would fail to capitalise "jew", you thick Irish cunt.
>
> Eli
That is what she said once about someone not capitalizing jOOOOOOO.
Christ! she is dumb as a rock! No offense to any rocks out there. I'd
love to meet her just so I could slap her in the face with a large
mackerel -- only to see the befuddled look on her stupid mug.
Eli Grubman
<dalil...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 15, 11:12 pm, Eli Grubman <eli.grub...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 May 2008 19:55:45 GMT, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>>
>> >On 15-May-2008, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
>> >> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
>> >> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
>> >> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>>
>> >Translation: she & DoD kick the carapaces of jew-haters every time they
>> >post.
>>
>> Only a bgot would fail to capitalise "jew", you thick Irish cunt.
>>
>> Eli
>
>That is what she said once about someone not capitalizing jOOOOOOO.
The hypocrisy simply reeks!
>Christ! she is dumb as a rock! No offense to any rocks out there.
Probably kissed the Blarney Rock once too often.
>I'd
>love to meet her just so I could slap her in the face with a large
>mackerel -- only to see the befuddled look on her stupid mug.
Her look is constantly befuddled when she finds herself among Jews and
realises she looks nothing like them!
Eli
Joe Bruno
> Israeli Jews in Goa India- search for spirituality, drugs, freedom- war
> having its effects
> By A. Craig Copetas
>
> Gupta the swastika salesman arrives
> at sunset, fires a kerosene lantern and displays his gold-
> painted trinkets on an Indian beach filled with hundreds of
> young Israelis dancing in a fog of hashish.
>
> Draped in garlands strung with jasmine blossoms, the
> pulsating Israelis are freshly decommissioned from the military
> and seeking a cheap retreat to unwind from their obligatory two-
> to-three years of safeguarding the Jewish state. The conscripts
> find sanctuary in the thousands of dilapidated wicker seaside
> shacks and dozens of isolated jungle ghettos that weave along a
> 78-mile coast and snake up treacherous dirt tracks into the
> impoverished mountain villages of Goa.
>
> According to Israeli and Indian officials, between 40,000
> and 60,000 young Israelis have either permanently moved or
> established long-term residence in India. They have created new
> lives for themselves alongside the country's 900 million Hindus
> and 150 million Muslims and caused tension among the local
> population because of the widespread use of recreational drugs.
>
> ``Our souls need a permanent break from Israel,'' says army
> veteran Tomel Basel, 24, pocketing one of Gupta's 10 cent charms,
> the ancient cross with bent arms that is venerated by Hindus as
> a lucky adornment.
>
> ``We're all runaways,'' Basel says before filling his lungs
> with potent smoke and exhaling his separate reality on the
> squalor of Anjuna Beach. ``There's nothing for us back in
> Israel.''
>
> Karma Kosher Trail
>
> What began in 1994 as the great post-military escape to
> India has turned into a new-age Diaspora of young and embittered
> men and women looking to flee what they say is their country's
> armed turmoil with the Palestinians and the spiritual emptiness
> of Judaism.
>
> Many of the revelers on the sands of Anjuna Beach and
> elsewhere along what's known as the Karma Kosher Trail say they
> have no intention of returning to Israel, despite the efforts of
> four local rabbis and a $200,000 joint government-private sector
> campaign funded by Israeli banking and telecommunications
> magnate Nochi Dankner, a devotee of the Dalai Lama and chairman
> of IDB Holding Corp.
>
> Shlomo Breznitz, a director of the campaign and founder of
> the India-Israel Parliamentary Friendship Group in Israel, says
> the exodus is worrisome and potentially tragic. ``Karma kosher
> is much more of a widespread phenomenon than Israelis want to
> admit,'' says Breznitz, 71, a retired member of the Israeli
> parliament and former president and provost of Haifa University.
>
> India Trade
>
> ``India is about to become one of Israel's biggest trading
> partners,'' Breznitz adds. ``And we have 40,000 kids down there
> who have no idea when or if they will come back. Their attitude
> has already fueled very real anti-Israeli elements within the
> Indian government and created sufficient motivation for people
> in Israel and India to harm our bilateral trade agreements.''
>
> Between 1992 and 2006, trade between Israel and India grew
> to $2.7 billion from $200 million and is poised to top $3
> billion annually.
>
> ``Forty thousand over-enthusiastic Israelis in India are
> not going to get in the way of more than $3 billion of bilateral
> trade,'' says Indian Minister of Commerce and Industry Kamal
> Nath. ``And there's enormous scope for increasing that trade.''
>
> Military Dropout
>
> ``Too much is at stake,'' Breznitz says. ``India has the
> world's second-largest Muslim population. There's a strong
> symbolic element to these youngsters, so it's not a question of
> if something might happen, but when it will happen. I read the
> security reports.''
>
> Leanna Peled-Rosen, 27, doesn't care. She stripped the
> sergeant stripes from her sleeve in 2000, abandoning a promising
> military career as a self-defense instructor and anti-terrorist
> specialist to become a ballet dancer and live a Hindu lifestyle
> in Israel.
>
> She is in Tel Aviv, saving money for a likely trip to India
> and aware of the growing economic ties between Israel and India
> in telecommunications, pharmaceuticals, construction, real
> estate and military hardware.
>
> ``The trade will further speed up the process of
> integrating Indian culture with Israeli society,'' Peled-Rosen
> says at the Sub Kuchmilga (Anything Is Possible) Indian
> restaurant. The sign on the door reads ``No Elephants Allowed.''
> There's a bottle of bourbon on the bar and, on the jukebox, Bob
> Dylan is singing ``Changing of the Guards.''
>
> `No Clue'
>
> ``The government has absolutely no clue why we go to
> India,'' Peled-Rosen laughs, pointing to a group of uniformed
> Israeli soldiers huddled in a corner. ``The politicians will
> tell you that we live in a bubble, but it won't burst. Our
> spiritual lives are beyond the politics and religion of
> Israel.''
>
> Peled-Rosen gestures toward a picture of Ganesh, one of the
> Hindu gods that decorate the restaurant. ``Those who have been
> forced to return from Goa because they've run out of money are
> vocal critics of the political and religious status quo,''
> Peled-Rosen says. ``We won't back down.''
>
> Two hours south of Tel Aviv, along the hardscrabble
> frontier of the Negev Desert, retired flower grower Rachamin
> Efraim pours a sweet drink on the Moshav Nevatim farm and smiles
> at the thought of young Israelis roaming the land of his
> forefathers.
>
> ``India is calm, a good place for young people who have
> grown up in a country where everyone is going crazy,'' says the
> 71-year-old Cochin Jew, one of some 70,000 Indian Jews Breznitz
> helped repatriate in the 1950s, more than 2,000 years after the
> tribe first arrived in southwestern India from Jerusalem.
>
> `Paradise on Earth'
>
> Accompanying Efraim on the trip home to Israel in 1954 was
> Esther Atraham, then 18. Now 71 and living in the moshav's
> nursing facility, Atraham says it's foolish to begrudge the
> young Jews who have settled in Goa.
>
> ``Southern India is paradise on Earth,'' Atraham says,
> tugging the sleeve of her sari. ``I understand why the children
> go. They had a difficult time in the army. They want joy.''
>
> Just how a disparate group of former Israeli soldiers over
> the past 13 years managed to build a stronghold in India without
> government oversight remains a mystery. Why they're leaving
> Israel is no secret among those preparing to head south from the
> 26 Rupee restaurant on the roof of a Tel Aviv warehouse.
>
> ``The war with the Palestinians never ends,'' says Smadar
> Waisman, 26, an Israeli Defense Force intelligence analyst who
> left the barracks to join an ashram in Israel.
>
> ``Military service turns good young Israelis into corrupt
> and insensitive people,'' Waisman says. ``We're forced to follow
> orders and do and see horrible things that no young person
> should be involved with. If you want your soul to survive the
> anxiety and depression of Israel, you leave for Goa.''
>
> Jerusalem to Goa
>
> The long march from the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem to
> Curlie's bar in the rocks overlooking Anjuna Beach would
> probably challenge Moses. Lapsed Israelis say it often requires
> skirting Indian visas, residency permits and making side trips
> to ``friendly'' Indian consulates in Beijing and Chiang Mai,
> Thailand. Some fly to Sri Lanka and jump a boat for the short
> ride across Pamban Channel, blending in among locals who are
> mostly exempt from Indian immigration checks.
>
> ``It's easy to pull off,'' says Anjuna Christian, a 66-
> year-old Frenchman who renamed himself after the beach he has
> lived on since moving here in 1977. ``The Israelis are Goa's
> next generational wave. They're coming no matter who likes it or
> not.''
>
> Those who manage to secure a legitimate visa from the
> Indian Consulate in Tel Aviv pay $629 for a round trip that
> begins with a rickety bus ride to Amman and a Gulf Air flight to
> Bahrain and Mumbai. From there it's a sweltering and crowded
> nine-hour train ride to Panaji, Goa's capital.
>
> `Empty Place'
>
> The cost of deliverance is initially underwritten by the
> Israeli Defense Force. Combat veterans leave the army with a
> maximum cash bonus of $2,100. Combat support staff walk away
> with $1,800. Everyone else pockets $1,452.
>
> On the beach, life is cheap and flea-ridden.
>
> A room with a plank bed and a pink mosquito net costs $5 a
> night or $11 for three people. Sleeping under a fragrant cashew
> tree is free. Kitchens with names like the Outback Indian
> Israeli Restaurant come with Hebrew-speaking Hindus who ladle
> vegetarian fare for a few cents a plate.
>
> ``A lot of us either never served in the army or left it
> more than a decade ago,'' says Asaf Rottenberg, a 30-year-old
> waiter who abandoned his job at Tel Aviv's LaLa Land restaurant.
> ``People my age come here because Israel is an empty place.''
>
> Drug Use
>
> Historically, foreigners looking to sate their spiritual
> appetites begin at STARCO, an Anjuna hotel and restaurant that
> for 30 years has been celebrated as Goa's hippie headquarters.
> The sign on the roof still advertises ``Booze, Food & Shelter,''
> dished out in that order by Swedish Maggie, who arrived in
> Anjuna from Stockholm 24 years ago and never left.
>
> ``You must respect the people in the country where you
> go,'' Maggie says while a young Indian boy massages her feet in
> the garden. ``The Israelis don't. They're real bad, causing
> trouble and getting too heavy in the drug-smuggling scene.''
>
> ``I'm not concerned about the drug use,'' says Indian
> Industry Minister Nath. ``The presence of Muslims in India is
> also not a concern. India is not just the world's biggest
> democracy, it's the world's rowdiest democracy.''
>
> For Breznitz, a psychologist who once worked for the U.S.
> National Institutes of Health, karma kosher is more than a
> curious national crotchet with stark parallels to the American
> and European hippies who preceded the Israelis to Goa during the
> 1960s and early 1970s.
>
> Brooklyn Connection
>
> ``It's dangerous,'' Breznitz says. ``There are hordes of
> young Israelis moving around India and too many of them fail to
> blend in and look down on the locals.''
>
> Breznitz's apprehension can be heard during
>
This happens often with other nationalities...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American
Tilly
:: Israeli Jews in Goa India- search for spirituality, drugs, freedom-
:: war having its effects
:: By A. Craig Copetas
If you think young Jews are the only young people 'escaping' in Goa then you
have obviously never been there.
It is full of young people from all over the world 'escaping' from reality
for a while or more permanently.
What's more for those that want drugs ,there's plenty of them and they are
cheap.
<clipped>
Tilly
Tilly
B.H. Cramer
"Count 1" <omnipi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:XCXWj.268810$pM4.242087@pd7urf1no...
>> Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
>> sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
>> any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
>> congenial to a painfully average person.
>
>
> than you will ever know,
BBBWWWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Shoveari does nothing but spew the usual scripted bullshit the zionazis feed
her.
Doodoo is as dumb as a box of rocks. And as attractive.
B.H. Cramer
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5b81d382-a013-49f9...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian conflict
> intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
> errors, even after promising to do so.
>
> you
> as a complete fraud.
>
> HHW:
>
> > Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
> > acknowledge that I was wrong. Go ahead, put up my false posts about
> > Israel's intentions and actions. Remember to distinguish my opinions
> > from false information.
>
> C1:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3st4b5
>
>
> "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
> forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic
> position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
> ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
>
> cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an opinion,
> you state this is a "fact".
>
> cleansing.
>
> And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
> wrong.
What I don't get is that he claims he is not anti-Jewish, but all he
does is take pot shots at Israel
Ersatz israel has set itself up to have pot shots taken of it, you fuckwit.
B.H. Cramer
<fla...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:5z0Xj.3736$LL.1014@trnddc04...
>
> On 15-May-2008, "Count 1" <omnipi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
>> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
>> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
>> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>>
> post.
>>
>> conflict
>> than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
>> intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>>
>> Your sanctimonious, self righteous, bullshit is - and will be - forever
>> dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
>> errors, even after promising to do so.
>>
>> Need a reminder old boy? Here is the exchange which will forever expose
>> you as a complete fraud.
>>
>>
>> HHW:
>> > Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
>> > acknowledge that I was wrong.
>
>
> Is this liar actually stupid enough to think we're going to fall for this?
Not clever to speak in the first person, cohen.
B.H. Cramer
"Kosher Cunny" <dalil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cc5d2782-73ce-4c68...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
She'd likely accept it as some sort of foreplay.
It's a bit bent, this cohen shiela.
>
>
>
>
B.H. Cramer
>> On May 15, 12:18 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
>>> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack
>>> > > of
>>> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
>>> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>>>
>>> > conflict
>>> > than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
>>> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>>
>> whether you like it or not.
>
> ?? Non sequitur. Nothing compels me to tell you the truth.
You don't know any truths, you silly little c(0)unt.
B.H. Cramer
"Tilly" <fem...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g0jh0m$875$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
> Jamie Peters wrote:
> :: Israeli Jews in Goa India- search for spirituality, drugs, freedom-
> :: war having its effects
> :: By A. Craig Copetas
>
>
> If you think young Jews are the only young people 'escaping' in Goa then
> you have obviously never been there.
> It is full of young people from all over the world 'escaping' from reality
> for a while or more permanently.
Bugger me. Here's ole twatty with here "but what about him/her/them"
bullshit again.
Grow up you brain damaged little slag.
B.H. Cramer
"WHO" want drugs, twatty. NOT "those."
And you're supposed to have three degrees??????
Degrees of worthlessness you've got in spades, you brain dead little slag.
B.H. Cramer
We got it the first time.
The second time
AND the third time, you brain dead little slag. Learn how to post.
>
>
> <clipped>
>
>
>
> --
> femai...@REMOVE.gmail.com
>
>
Jamie Peters
"B.H. Cramer" <Iamhre@them'oment.bizz> wrote in message
news:NN6dnYbc6NhfwrDV...@giganews.com...
Has Susan even spoke in any person?
Count 1
***
That's not the law but then Israel's not bound by it, right?
***
Yes, that is the law, and Israel is bound to Israeli law before she's bound
to anyone else's law.
Jamie Peters
All is under control Tilly.
Nothing can go wrong... go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go
wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong,
go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong....
HHW
A long since dead and unrefrigerated mackerel.
HHW
Irrelevant. The article was about Israeli IDF veterans and their
frequently expressed reason for being there.
mud...@sympatico.ca
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 15, 12:18 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> >> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack
> >> > > of
> >> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> >> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> >> > conflict
> >> > than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
> >> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> > whether you like it or not.
>
> >> > dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
> >> > errors, even after promising to do so.
>
>
> If he were a rich man... yada, yada, yada... dee, dee, dee!
>
> [snipped]- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jews are a running race and they cannot find anything in a barron land
unless any werlfare check from USA
Jamie Peters
Tilly doesn't care. She's more involved in starting vicious rumours,
imparting people's personal information, and expounding on lying gossip.
dsha...@hotmail.com
> > As HHW has stated, he believes everything he posts, even if it's all
> > bs. And most of it IS bs.
> > "I actually believe what I said even if I can't prove all of it and
> > some is based on instinct."
> > ***
> On May 15, 5:44 pm, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I know, but it's still fun to watch him twist in the wind.
On May 15, 4:45 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or wallow in the mud with the other trolls and feel sorry for him.
Either way, it's amusing, as well as instructive as to the lengths
fanatics will go bolster their beliefs.
Deborah
dsha...@hotmail.com
> I don't feel sorry for HHW.
> I feel sorry for Mirelle because she is just too crazy
> to understand what she does and she really can't
> do any better.
This is true.
> But HHW can do better. All he has to do is to stop
> being so lazy and do some homework before he posts.
It would help if he didn't feel a need to lie so often to boost his
ego. Sad.
Deborah
B.H. Cramer
Ersatz israel is not bound by any law, you silly little c(0)unt.
Ersatz israel thumbs their collective hooked noses at all law, including
International law and conventions.
>
>
>
>
B.H. Cramer
"Jamie Peters" <jas...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:au-dnUOutc9vb7DV...@earthlink.com...
And trying to shag anything warm with a pulse.
>
>
>
>
HHW
> HHW;
>
> > >> > "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
> > >> > forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the
> > >> > strategic
> > >> > position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
> > >> > ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
>
>
> > >> > In this post you are factually incorrect.
Naw, I see it now. I was grammatically incorrect.
>
> HHW;
>
> > > Prove it. You've reached your conclusion so expose your "facts".
>
> C1;
>
>
>
> > The population growth rate is 2.91% - that means there are almost 3 more
> > people for every 100 persons in the West Bank, every year. A birthrate of
> > 30
> > per 1000. There is no evidence of an ongoing program of ethnic cleansing,
> > no
> > mass refugee migrations, Jordan and Syria do not acknowledge 'ethnic
> > cleansing' is taking place and are not asking for UN intervention on their
> > behalf due to a program of ethnic cleansing.
>
> > On top of that every piece of population data gathered by any
> > semi-respectable or better organization shows the population of the West
> > Bank Palestinians growing, not decreasing as would logically be expected
> > from a 'cleansing' program.
>
> > This information is widely available online, so your best excuse is
> > laziness, but I suspect something else causes you to post incorrect
> > information about Israel and state - without support - they are 'facts'.
>
> HHW;
>
> no reply.
You lie. I replied to that in detail.
>
> C1;
>
> > > Israel is not trying to ethnically
> > >> > cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an
> > >> > opinion,
> > >> > you state this is a "fact".
>
> HHW
> ***
> Ethnic cleansing is the obvious policy. It was concocted in the 1930s
> as foreshadowed earlier in Zionist doctrine. It was carried out brutally if
> not with complete success in 1947-48.
> ***
>
> C1;
> Once again I see you have to be reminded of your own words - the issue we
> are discussing.
You interrupted my response. That's intellectually dishonest.
>
> You wrote;
> "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute forget
> that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic position of
> israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to ethnically cleanse the
> West Bank* (...)"
>
> You can't change the argument and expect me not to notice. You were speaking
> in the present tense - not past tense.
I didn't change the argument. The readers would understand it if you
hadn't clipped my response.
By G-d! You HAVE found a grammatical error in one of my sentences! So
that's what's going on! You're bringing up the moral equivalent of a
typo. Charming, Ratner. I DID shift from the past to the present tense
in a single sentence. Miss Niles, my English teacher, would have been
horrified, not that I made the mistake but that I didn't proof it
before "publication". And I am chagrined. "She's" should have been
"she was" because the entire sentence was obiously in the past. But
then had I asked Miss Niles to parse the meaning of the sentence she
would without question have agreed that it is clearly in the past and
would be incomprehensible were it not read to be read that way. That
wouldn't matter to Deborah now, would it? And certainly not to her
little finger, DoD. And THEREFORE not to you, you admire them so.
However, Count, I'm happy to have you know that in the context of this
conversation it doesn't make a post-W dime's worth of difference. I'm
happy to affirm that in the present there is a continuing policy of
ethnic cleansing on the West Bank. If you had not been so obtusely
clever as to what you were about I'd have clarified this days ago:
1. The Israelis are continuing AND consolidating the theft AND
cleansing of Palestinian lands as we speak. They announced the
construction of 900 new apartments on the West Bank just after they
agreed to negotiate with the Palestinians recently, and in the
negotiations they are desperately trying to consolidate their gains
from earlier stages of ethnic cleansing. It's all part of one plan,
one campaign, which has been in place since 1967 when the first
illegal settlement was placed on the West Bank. Ethnic cleansing is an
element of it. It has never been renounced, only lied about. They've
given the IDF the right to confiscate Palestinian land and to expel
its palestinian residents as if title had changed by eminent domain.
For decades they've been destroying Palestinian farming operations in
order to more easily be able confiscate the land. When the land is
confiscated the people have to leave or be expelled. The occupation is
illegal and so is the gaining of land by warfare. What's happening is
transparent criminality.
2. As we speak the Israelis are working desperately on the apartheid
wall which will enclose 20 percent of the West Bank and make the rest
of it into bantustans. They hope this will help them consolidate their
gains from ethnic cleansing. It's part of a single program and people
are constantly being uprooted by it.
3. And then there is the constant pressure to make Palestinians leave
East Jerusalem which is, ostensibly but illegally, a part of Israel
according to the aggressors. The techniques used there are abominable.
Ethnic cleansing is obviously not the
> policy for three reasons;
>
> 1) It isn't happening
Liar, see above. It is not justifiably a matter of opinion. You're
simply lying.
> 2) It's incongrous with a security barrier
You're disgusting. You know it is not even arguably a security barrier
when it strays within the West Bank from the Green Line. It is an
ethnic cleansing consolidating device.
> 3) It isn't happening.
Worse than disgusting. It's a conscious lie. You're compulsively
incapable of candid evaluation of anything relating to Israel's
aggressions in the Middle East. I could forgive you that in private
conversation, but it's over the top as a part of public discourse when
you have a gross but unadmitted conflict of interest and you're not
even willing to concede that the rest of the American people have a
*different* interest in how we handle it, an interest which is NOT the
same as the the interest of the right wing clique which runs Israeli
policy or the same as the interest of the people who lavish fortunes
on the lobby which undermines our democratic Congress on behalf of a
foreign power. You are two percent of the American population and only
a half of one percent or less of those who take the faux conservative
Zionist view of these things and contribute to AIPAC and the Zionist
Pacs which debase our Congress and administrations. Their behavior has
destroyed the potential for our political system to seek the overall
public interest in this extremely dangerous matter. You should but
certainly will not be ashamed of it.
>
> HHW;
> ***
> The use of the term ethnic cleansing to describe
> Israeli policy is perfectly legitimate.
> ***
>
> C1;
> Then you should be able to point to one piece of hard information which
> shows that it's happening. Not that it did happen, or might have happened,
> but is happening right now as you stated.
See above. Everyone, see above.
> The fact that you cannot - and have repeatedly not been able to - is because
> none exists.
See above.
The fact that you have failed to provide *anything* to back up
> your claim suggests that you feel it is perfectly legitimate to post
> anything you want to even if you know you cannot prove it. That makes you a
> poor source for anyone to read to form any kind of opinion of the Israeli /
> Palestine conflict.
See above.
>
> And I'll be sure to remind your 'readers' (lol) of that everytime you decide
> to be a sanctimonious jerk.
Sanctimonious? Who knows? Maybe. What's at stake is too important to
give a damn about matters of style. You can label me with that any
time you like. But one thing I'm not is an American who is willing to
sacrifice the interests of the American people and nation on the altar
of a pipsqueak foreign country in the Middle East simply because its
local supporters have the financial assets and the will to corrupt our
Congress and to intimidate our executive. Democracies are fragile
things and when the representatives of the people can not speak their
minds for fear of being driven out of public life, the people who are
doing it have gone too far. They have betrayed their country. What you
want to call it is irrelevant. It's a betrayal nonetheless.
B.H. Cramer
"dsha...@gmail.com" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:196aa725-abd5-44a2...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Indeed it is, shoveari. As you display in your every post.
B.H. Cramer
This is true.
That would be you, slime.
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f89084ca-b795-4235...@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
>
> > ***
> > As HHW has stated, he believes everything he posts, even if it's all
> > bs. And most of it IS bs.
>
> > "I actually believe what I said even if I can't prove all of it and
> > some is based on instinct."
I did say that about DoD. I still say it and believe it too, something
you have a problem doing in public.
> > ***
>
> > I know, but it's still fun to watch him twist in the wind.
>
> ***
> Enjoy. Israel is leaving the West Bank.
> ***
>
> She'll keep what she needs for her security. She won it, afterall. She's
> certainly under no imperative to respect borders Arabs didn't in 1967.
Oh, she'll just "keep" whatever she wants to keep. And the American
interest won't matter. And if that doesn't settle it what then? All
our administrations since Carter have called on her to get the Hell
out of the West Bank. But it doesn't matter what the American view is,
the American interest. Guess what, Ratner, it's going to be over soon.
If Bush won't do it the rest of us will, and that will include many
American Jews who even now are beginning to rebel against the lobby's
form of social oppression. They, like the rest of us, know that
Israeli policy has failed and that it's time for her to consolidate
her gains and get it over with.
Kosher Cunny
"Joe Bruno" <jbr...@indystart.com> wrote in message
news:fc17cb5f-2625-4e14...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On May 14, 2:06 am, "Jamie Peters" <jasp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Israeli Jews in Goa India- search for spirituality, drugs, freedom- war
> having its effects
> By A. Craig Copetas
>
> at sunset, fires a kerosene lantern and displays his gold-
> painted trinkets on an Indian beach filled with hundreds of
> young Israelis dancing in a fog of hashish.
>
:
:
:This happens often with other nationalities...
:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American
:
It happens to me too; one or two times a week, when I wish I wasn;t a
dyslexic Jew.
Susan
HHW
> On May 15, 7:47 pm, hillelg...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On May 15, 4:45 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Or wallow in the mud with the other trolls and feel sorry for him.
>
>
> > I feel sorry for Mirelle because she is just too crazy
> > to understand what she does and she really can't
> > do any better.
>
> > being so lazy and do some homework before he posts.
>
Fool, you've never shown any sign of knowing the truth when you've
seen it. Toadyism is your "truth". Living on our knees and being
denied the right to take the welfare of your own homeland into
consideration is your reality, your truth.
and that is something
> he is incapable of.
You're not competent to judge the needs of your own country much less
me.
> I just feel sorry for a man with that much hate in his heart. He must
> be one miserable dude.
YOU feel sorry for a man who refuses to live on his knees? Get up off
yours, "David". Sympathy for Jewish people who suffered greatly on
another continent over sixty years ago at the hands of our enemy is no
basis whatever for condoning crimes perpetrated by the ruling cliques
in Israel for the last sixty years. No basis whatever. No crimes
justify others. None! We Americans have been dragged into complicity
in in Israeli crimes. Our moral inheritance at an elementary level
should and would easily have prevented it if we had had the courage to
face down the conflicted influence peddlers inside our own country. We
must run our own affairs and preserve what's left of our democratic
traditions. That is consistent with an appropriately sensitive Israel
policy. It is not consistant with giving over the decision making
process in the most sensitive aspect of our foreign policy to a very
narrow lobby. You've lost your compass, David. It's because you gave
up your moral sense when you became the Secretary of Defense of
Israeli crimes.
HHW
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 19:55:45 GMT, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>
>
> >> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> >> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> >> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> >> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> >post.
>
> Only a bgot would fail to capitalise "jew", you thick Irish cunt.
>
> Eli
Be easy now, it was a typo. I'm sympathetic. I just discovered that I
perpetrated one of those crimes and it has been the subject of a Count
1 diatribe for over a week. The Convert needs to be given a chance to
prove her thesis despite her sin. Let's seen now, what was it? Oh,
yes, something about the virtues of DoD and Deborah not having the wit
to go for vital organs.
HHW
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 23:58:16 -0700 (PDT), Kosher Cunny
>
>
>
> <dalilama...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On May 15, 11:12 pm, Eli Grubman <eli.grub...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 15 May 2008 19:55:45 GMT, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>
> >> >On 15-May-2008, "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> >> >> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> >> >> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> >> >> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> >> >Translation: she & DoD kick the carapaces of jew-haters every time they
> >> >post.
>
> >> Only a bgot would fail to capitalise "jew", you thick Irish cunt.
>
> >> Eli
>
>
>
> >Christ! she is dumb as a rock! No offense to any rocks out there.
>
>
> >I'd
> >love to meet her just so I could slap her in the face with a large
> >mackerel -- only to see the befuddled look on her stupid mug.
>
> realises she looks nothing like them!
>
> Eli
That's just the beginning.
HHW
> "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:XCXWj.268810$pM4.242087@pd7urf1no...
>
> >> Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> >> sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> >> any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> >> congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> > than you will ever know,
>
>
> Shoveari does nothing but spew the usual scripted bullshit the zionazis feed
> her.
>
> Doodoo is as dumb as a box of rocks. And as attractive.
As in the case of the noble fruit fly, that generous teacher of
monkish genetics, rocks must not be diminished by comparison with
David the Obsequious. Olivene is of a gorgeous tint and ancient
lineage. Schist is bewitching. Flint even today strikes sparks at the
human hearth. The lowly blackish basalt is redolent of cosmic history
while sandstone is gravity and motion frozen for all time. And DoD? He
will soon vanish, leaving behind naught but the record of these foul
electronic impulses, preserved only for the sake of scientific
objectivity on the presumption that re-evolution is yet possible.
HHW
> "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5b81d382-a013-49f9...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack of
> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> > Deborah and DoD have forgotten more about the Israeli Palestinian conflict
> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> > dismissed coming as it does from someone incapable of admitting their
> > errors, even after promising to do so.
>
> > you
> > as a complete fraud.
>
>
> > > Name them. If I'm factually incorrect I'll immediately correct it and
> > > Israel's intentions and actions. Remember to distinguish my opinions
> > > from false information.
>
> > C1:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/3st4b5
>
> > You wrote;
>
> > "While we're being whined and stampeded into Iran, don't for a minute
> > forget that the other two adventures designed to improve the strategic
> > position of israel *despite the fact that she's still trying to
> > ethnically cleanse the West Bank* (...)"
>
> > ethnically
> > cleanse the west bank. And you don't even try to state this as an opinion,
> > you state this is a "fact".
>
> > barrier as an imposed final settlement and an ongoing program of ethnic
> > cleansing.
>
> > And that's just one example. I await your acknowledgement that you were
> > wrong.
>
> What I don't get is that he claims he is not anti-Jewish, but all he
> does is take pot shots at Israel
>
> Ersatz israel has set itself up to have pot shots taken of it, you fuckwit.
There's nothing left of that false dichotomy. And the apartheid wall
will not determine the settlement. That's just what the Israelis
wanted. The United States will determine it---in accord with her own
interests---without abandoning actual Israeli security as determined
by us (and that doesn't include Canada).
HHW
> "Kosher Cunny" <dalilama...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cc5d2782-73ce-4c68...@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On May 15, 11:12 pm, Eli Grubman <eli.grub...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 15 May 2008 19:55:45 GMT, flav...@verizon.net wrote:
>
>
> >> >> > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> >> >> > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> >> >> > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> >> >post.
>
> >> Only a bgot would fail to capitalise "jew", you thick Irish cunt.
>
> >> Eli
>
> > That is what she said once about someone not capitalizing jOOOOOOO.
>
> > love to meet her just so I could slap her in the face with a large
> > mackerel -- only to see the befuddled look on her stupid mug.
>
>
> It's a bit bent, this cohen shiela.
>
>
She really could behave herself. You know, like DoD, theoretically she
could get up off her knees and *still* go through the motions of
practicing Judaism. What's sad about her is that she felt she had to
pretend she gave up everything associated with her actual inner being.
She's Irish for Chrissake.
HHW
> "Count 1" <omnipitus2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >> On May 15, 12:18 pm, DoD <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> > > Neither Deborah or DoD is capable of debating in the Oxford Union
> >>> > > sense. Deborah is disabled by hatred combined with an absolute lack
> >>> > > of
> >>> > > any moral standards. David's IQ is about 100 and this is not a realm
> >>> > > congenial to a painfully average person.
>
> >>> > conflict
> >>> > than you will ever know, and either one of them obviously have more
> >>> > intelligence in their little finger than you have in your whole body.
>
> >> whether you like it or not.
>
>
> You don't know any truths, you silly little c(0)unt.
He knows what decency requires. He just rejects it in the most brazen
fashion.
Tilly
::: --
:: femail1...@REMOVE.gmail.com
:
: Irrelevant. The article was about Israeli IDF veterans and their
: frequently expressed reason for being there.
Learn to read:
"Israeli Jews in Goa India- search for spirituality, drugs,
freedom"..........
Got it now?
B.H. Cramer
My most sincere apologies for having dissed rocks.
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
HHW
> "HHW" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
As Mother Earth's attorney-in-fact I assure you that she accepts.
What's the weather like there this time of year?
B.H. Cramer
You certainly have not.
B.H. Cramer
Not too pleasant at the moment. 7 degrees C, quite windy, overcase and
drizzling.
It's often said Melbourne has such bad weather because they deserve it ;-)
HHW
Go back and read it, Tilly. The subject is alienation, mostly of IDF
veterans.
Eli Grubman
She'll be subdued for the next two days as she recovers from last
night's sodomy session.
Eli
Jamie Peters
You've lost the track.
HHW is well aware of those things, and also that Goa is also a haven for
many disgruntled IDF drop-outs, looking for a place to decompress very far
away from Israel and its militant culture.
HHW was in on the original posts on this topic, which I started after he
suggested it to me in passing.
The topic is NOT who is there now, it's the fact that many of those there
(not all mind you) are lost ex-IDF kids, with nowhere else to go that suits
their psyche's current state of decomposition. You don't get it because you
never had to undergo such a debilitating mental phase shift.
I have and I know what they are going through. I know fully what it like.
While you were trying to figure out your way back on the NG, we were already
discussing all of this, just as you were trying to understand why AIOE was
not posting your inane replies.
You're off the track, off the topic, off the thread, off the mark, and off
your head.
Before coming back with a new mozarella newsgroup-reader you should make
some attempt to catch-up first, because many of the nuances are not there on
mozarella for you at first kick. You should have gone to Google to read a
bit of the archives, before inserting your big foot into your big mouth.
It's about CONTEXT and you lost it a long time ago. How do you think all
this gossip starts when you get yourself involved. You assume more than you
know. Learn to read.
Count 1
By G-d! You HAVE found a grammatical error in one of my sentences! So
that's what's going on! You're bringing up the moral equivalent of a
typo.
Bullshit, you were caught stating facts when there were none and are now,
after being exposed, claiming it was just an error. Oldest play in the book.
***
However, Count, I'm happy to have you know that in the context of this
conversation it doesn't make a post-W dime's worth of difference. I'm
happy to affirm that in the present there is a continuing policy of
ethnic cleansing on the West Bank.
***
I look forward to you posting one scintilla of evidence in support of this
argument. I see you made an attempt below - let's see how you did.....
***
1. The Israelis are continuing AND consolidating the theft AND
cleansing of Palestinian lands as we speak. They announced the
construction of 900 new apartments on the West Bank just after they
agreed to negotiate with the Palestinians recently, and in the
negotiations they are desperately trying to consolidate their gains
from earlier stages of ethnic cleansing.
***
Final status negotiations and settlement construction are concerns for
Palestinians, and within that very large and complex process there is room
to criticize both sides. For what it's worth, I do not support new
settlement growth at this time. However neither support your contention
that a program of ethnic cleansing is active at this time. Those issues
simply do not rise to the level of atrocity ethnic cleansing denotes.
****
2. As we speak the Israelis are working desperately on the apartheid
wall which will enclose 20 percent of the West Bank and make the rest
of it into bantustans. They hope this will help them consolidate their
gains from ethnic cleansing. It's part of a single program and people
are constantly being uprooted by it.
****
'Apartheid wall' is a non sequitur. The security barrier is defensive, not
an offensive measure like apartheid. And be careful with that 20% number
(you are clearly regurgitating Palestinian propaganda with that one), once
again basic research would have told you that final location for much of the
fence is currently held up in the courts. And - again - logically you have
failed to reconcile the dichotomy between a security barrier meant to keep
suicide bombers out and a program to rid the area of its source of suicide
bombers.
***
3. And then there is the constant pressure to make Palestinians leave
East Jerusalem which is, ostensibly but illegally, a part of Israel
according to the aggressors. The techniques used there are abominable.
****
Again - this is not 'ethnic cleansing of the west bank'. This is - at
worst - messy evictions.
Ethnic cleansing is obviously not the
> policy for three reasons;
>
> 1) It isn't happening
***
Liar, see above. It is not justifiably a matter of opinion. You're
simply lying.
***
I am not lying and there is nothing to see above which supports your
assertion.
> 2) It's incongrous with a security barrier
***
You're disgusting. You know it is not even arguably a security barrier
when it strays within the West Bank from the Green Line. It is an
ethnic cleansing consolidating device.
***
ROFLMAO.... that sounds like something from a Kubrick movie. I do enjoy
seeing how upset you're getting and need to call me 'disgusting'. And you
said you looked forward to a debate with me. :-)
> 3) It isn't happening.
***
Worse than disgusting. It's a conscious lie.
***
Nope - and I note you still haven't posted anything which supports your
argument.
You could make this a lot easier on yourself if you simply acknowledged you
were wrong, like you promised to do so.
***
You're compulsively
incapable of candid evaluation of anything relating to Israel's
aggressions in the Middle East.
***
Nope - the problem is you haven't raised any that support your argument, and
the ones you did were easily dismissed.
***
You are two percent of the American population
***
America is 50 people? I am one Canadian. I find it disheartening that
someone who professes such internet savy couldn't find that our for himself.
***
and only
a half of one percent or less of those who take the faux conservative
Zionist view of these things and contribute to AIPAC and the Zionist
Pacs which debase our Congress and administrations. Their behavior has
destroyed the potential for our political system to seek the overall
public interest in this extremely dangerous matter. You should but
certainly will not be ashamed of it.
***
And there is the sanctimony, the arrogant self-righteous asshole, dictating
to all how they should feel about a small lobby group in Washington working
to keep a small nation in a foriegn land alive.
BTW - after all this time you shouldn't be so ignorant of zionism. It is as
abtract a term as 'liberal' or 'progressive'. When you use the word you seem
to refer to only that portion of zionists who hold onto a strict
interpretation of a much larger Israel. These are typically called 'Eretz
Israel Zionists'. Then there are the 'Big Z' zionists, Netanyahu would fit
here, and they hold onto some of the old religion. I'm a 'Small Z' zionist.
Israel's existence is absolutely essential for the Middle East and the rest
of the world (I don't think you're ready for the geo-political arguments
supporting that one, considering you're still struggling with what 'ethnic
cleansing' means) but that doesn't give her licence to ignore the
Palestinians.
***
Sanctimonious? Who knows? Maybe.
***
Yeah - who knows? I certainly wouldn't think someone who has reached your
age and still doesn't know what 'ethnic cleansing' means to know if they
were sanctimonious or not.
***
What's at stake is too important to
give a damn about matters of style. You can label me with that any
time you like. But one thing I'm not is an American who is willing to
sacrifice the interests of the American people and nation on the altar
of a pipsqueak foreign country in the Middle East simply because its
local supporters have the financial assets and the will to corrupt our
Congress and to intimidate our executive.
***
I don't think of them as 'corrupting' congress - more like educating. Thank
god your representatives have heard of terms like 'geo political' and
'ethnic cleansing' - and actually know what they mean. Good indicator they
have the necessary intelligence to see how important US foriegn aid to
Israel is for peace.
***
Democracies are fragile
things
****
That's because they're 'precious', they have real value and that value
scares those who don't use democracy to consolidate their power. Democracies
threaten autocracies.
Are you beginning to understand why Israel's survival is so important now?
Are you finally beginning to get it?
B.H. Cramer
Poor ole twatty is forever heading off on her wild trips of fantasy. She
seems incapable of reading for comprehension.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Jamie Peters
--
She's an old bat, unaware that she missed most of the thread while she was
offline. And she's too lazy to go over to Google to catch up.
Fuck her!
The bent old battle axe is a trouble maker and a gossip monger.
B. Cramer
"Count 1" <omnipi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:EotXj.274164$pM4.3306@pd7urf1no...
I certainly don't.
Ersatz israel is a parody of democracy. It's 'owt but an ethnocentric,
theocratic, apartheid, terrorist regime.
Off you go now. You're dismissed.
Count 1
> Enjoy. Israel is leaving the West Bank.
> ***
>
> She'll keep what she needs for her security. She won it, afterall. She's
> certainly under no imperative to respect borders Arabs didn't in 1967.
***
Oh, she'll just "keep" whatever she wants to keep.
***
Nope. You really need to read Dennis Ross's book I recomended to you. The
complexity of the negotiation process between Israelis and Palestinians is
mindboggling, Israel fully recognizes she has no capability to keep whatever
she wants.
But I realize now that you won't acknowledge your errors, your ego has
stunted you in that regard.
BTW - you should probably stop calling me 'ratner'. Drahcir hasn't posted
here in a long time, and even a rudimentary glance at our post headers would
tell you that we don't even live in the same country.
It just makes you look nuttier for reasons other than your fear of Israel
and the AIPAC boogeyman.
B. Cramer
Not to forget the Walter Mitty personality either.
Doesn't matter what anyone else has done, owned or experienced, ole twatty
has done it faster, higher, better, more expensively blah blah blah.
Poor little thing. Probably comes of being of [very] small stature and
limited intelligence.
>
>
>
Count 1
>> ***
>> Democracies are fragile
>> things
>> ****
>>
>> That's because they're 'precious', they have real value and that value
>> scares those who don't use democracy to consolidate their power.
>> Democracies threaten autocracies.
>>
>> Are you beginning to understand why Israel's survival is so important
>> now?
>
> I certainly don't.
Of course you don't, you don't even know how to operate a toaster.
I'm not holding out much hope for your friend either, but at least he's not
scared of female genitalia to the point of using it as an insult.
You ThoughNazis are such a waste of time.
B. Cramer
>
>>> ***
>>> Democracies are fragile
>>> things
>>> ****
>>>
>>> That's because they're 'precious', they have real value and that value
>>> scares those who don't use democracy to consolidate their power.
>>> Democracies threaten autocracies.
>>>
>>> Are you beginning to understand why Israel's survival is so important
>>> now?
>>
>> I certainly don't.
>
> Of course you don't, you don't even know how to operate a toaster.
Really?
I notice you snipped the inconvenient facts from my post.
Why might that be, jew cunt?
DoD
Have you ever known a troll to quit trolling?
Anyways...
For someone with an ego that needs a dumptruck to be carried, like
watson, I find it kinda funny
how he states that nobody here has Oxford debating skills. Yet I don't
believe I have ever seen any debates out there
of his. Seems like all his time is spent posting crap to usenet. Where
is his stuff that is famous? I know we won't see any of his arguments
in any textbooks (on this subject, anyways) anytime soon. Well maybe
in a Palarab textbook, but nothing that would be even remotely
respectable. He is pretty much gutter trash.
B. Cramer
"DoD" <danski...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ed60980c-d9f7-4157...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Anyways...
You would not be capable of identifying proper debate, doodoodumbkunt.
You're an uneducated moron, who barely gets by with the most basic of
language.
You're a fucking loon, an embarrassment to gentiles, jews and your country,
and a traitorous little prick.
Don Ocean
Don't forget he is a booze, drug infested Doodoo dumbKunt.
>
>
DoD
> B. Cramer wrote:
>
> > "DoD" <danskisan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
That is pretty funny, because I am still better than you.
HHW
The Israeli Recipe For 2008: Genocide in Gaza, Ethnic Cleansing in the
West Bank
By Ilan Pappé
From the June 23, 2007 issue
Not long ago, I claimed that Israel is employing genocidal policies in
the Gaza Strip. I hesitated before using this very charged term and
yet decided to adopt it. The responses I received indicated unease in
using such a term. I rethought the term for a while, but concluded
with even stronger conviction: it is the only appropriate way to
describe what the Israeli army is doing in the Gaza Strip.
On Dec. 28, 2006, the Israeli human rights organization Betzelem
published its annual report on Israeli atrocities in the occupied
territories. In 2006, Israeli forces killed 660 citizens, triple the
number of the previous year (around 200). Most of the dead are from
the Gaza Strip, where Israeli forces demolished almost 300 houses and
have slain entire families. Since 2000, almost 4,000 Palestinians have
been killed by Israeli forces, half of them children, and more than
20,000 wounded.
The point is not just about escalating intentional killings but the
strategy.
Annexation
Israeli policy makers are facing two very different realities in the
West Bank and the Gaza Strip. In the former, they are finishing
construction of their eastern border. Their internal ideological
debate is over, and their master plan for annexing half of the West
Bank is gaining speed.
The last phase was delayed due to the promises made by Israel, under
the Road Map, not to build new settlements. Israel found two ways of
circumventing this. First, it defined a third of the West Bank as
Greater Jerusalem, which allowed it to build towns and community
centers within this new annexed area. Second, it expanded old
settlements to such proportions that there was no need to build new
ones.
Creeping Transfer
The settlements, army bases, roads and the wall will allow Israel to
annex almost half of the West Bank by 2010. Within these territories,
Israeli authorities will continue to implement creeping transfer
policies against the considerable number of Palestinians who remain.
There is no rush. As far as the Israeli are concerned they have the
upper hand there; the daily abusive and dehumanizing combination of
army and bureaucracy effectively adds to the dispossession process.
All governing parties from Labor to Kadima accept Ariel Sharon’s
strategic thinking that this policy is far better than the one offered
by the blunt “transferists” or ethnic cleansers, such as Avigdor
Liberman. In the Gaza Strip there is no clear Israeli strategy, but
there is a daily experiment with one. The Israelis see the Strip as a
distinct geo-political entity from the West Bank. Hamas controls Gaza,
while Mahmoud Abbas seems to run the fragmented West Bank with Israeli
and American blessing.
There is no land in the Strip that Israel covets and there is no
hinterland, like Jordan, to which the Palestinians can be expelled.
Ethnic cleansing is ineffective here. The earlier strategy in the
Strip was ghettoizing the Palestinians there, but this is not working.
The Jews know it best from their history. In the past, the next stage
against such communities was even more barbaric. It is difficult to
tell what does the future hold for the Gaza community: ghettoized,
quarantined, unwanted and demonized.
Throwing Away the Key
Creating the prison and throwing the key to the sea, as South African
law professor John Dugard has put it, was an option the Palestinians
in the Strip reacted against with force in September 2005. Determined
to show that they were still part of the West Bank and Palestine, they
launched the first significant number of missiles into the Western
Negev. The shelling was a response to an Israeli campaign of massive
arrests of Hamas and Jihad people in the Tul Karim area.
Israel responded with operation “First Rain.” Supersonic flights were
flown over Gaza to terrorize the entire population, succeeded by heavy
bombardment of vast areas from the sea, sky and land. The logic, the
Israeli army explained, was to weaken the community’s support for the
rocket launchers. As was expected, by the Israelis as well, the
operation only increased the support for the rocket launchers.
The real purpose was experimental. The Israeli generals wished to know
how such operations would be received at home, in the region and in
the world. And it seems the answer was “very well;” no one took
interest in the scores of dead and hundreds of wounded Palestinians.
Following operations were modeled on First Rain. The difference was
more firepower, more casualties and more collateral damage and, as
expected, more Qassam missiles in response. Accompanying measures
ensured full imprisonment of Gazans through boycott and blockade, with
which the European Union is shamefully collaborating.
The capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in June 2006 was
irrelevant in the general scheme, but it provided an opportunity for
the Israelis to escalate even more. After all, there was no strategy
that followed the decision of Sharon to remove 8,000 settlers from
Gaza whose presence complicated “punitive” missions. Since then, the
“punitive” actions continue and have become a strategy.
First Rain was replaced by “Summer Rains.” In a country where there is
no rain in the summer, one can expect only showers of F-16 bombs and
artillery shells hitting the people of the Strip.
Summer Rains brought a novel component: the land invasion into parts
of the Gaza Strip. This enabled the army to kill citizens and present
it as an inevitable result of heavy fighting within densely populated
areas and not of Israeli policies.
Summer Rains, Autumn Clouds
When the summer was over came the even more efficient “Autumn Clouds:”
beginning on Nov. 1, 2006, the Israelis killed 70 civilians in less
than 48 hours. By the end of that month, almost 200 were killed, half
of them children and women.
Some of the activity was parallelled the Israeli attacks on Lebanon,
making it easier to complete the operations without much external
attention, let alone criticism. From First Rain to Autumn Clouds there
is escalation in every parameter. The first is erasing the distinction
between “civilian” and “non-civilian” targets: the population is the
main target for the army’s operation. Second is the escalation in the
means: employment of every possible killing machine the Israeli army
possesses. Third is escalation in the number of casualties: with each
future operation, a much larger number of people are likely to be
killed and wounded. Finally, and most importantly, the operations have
become a strategy — the way Israel intends to solve the problem of the
Gaza Strip.
A creeping transfer in the West Bank and a measured genocidal policy
in the Gaza strip are the two strategies Israel employs today. From an
electoral point of view the policy in Gaza is problematic, as it does
not reap any tangible results; the West Bank under Mahmoud Abbas is
yielding to Israeli pressure and there is no significant force that
arrests the Israeli strategy of annexation and dispossession.
Gaza Fights Back
But the Strip continues to fire back. This would enable the Israeli
army to initiate larger genocidal operations in the future, but there
is also the great danger that, as in 1948, the army would demand a
more drastic and systematic “punitive” action against the besieged
people of the Gaza Strip. Ironically, the Israeli killing machine has
rested lately. Its generals are content that the internal killing in
the Strip does the job for them.
They watch satisfied the emerging civil war in the Strip that Israel
foments and encourages. The responsibility of ending the fighting lies
of course with the Palestinian groups themselves, but U.S. and Israeli
interference, the continued imprisonment, the starvation and
strangulation of the Strip all make such an internal peace process
very difficult.
Cutting Israel’s Oxygen
What unfolds in Gaza is a battleground between America’s and Israel’s
local proxies most unintentional but who dance to Israel’s tune
nonetheless — and those who oppose their plans. The opposition that
took over Gaza did it in a way that one finds very hard to condone or
cheer.
Once fighting there subsides, the Israeli Summer Rains will fall down
again on the people in the Strip, wreaking havoc and death. There is
no other way of stopping Israel than that of boycott, divestments and
sanctions. The only soft point of this killing machine is its oxygen
lines to “western” civilization and public opinion. It is still
possible to puncture them and make it at least more difficult for the
Israelis to implement their future strategy of eliminating the
Palestinian people either by cleansing them in the West Bank or
genocide in the Gaza Strip.
Dr. Ilan Pappé is an Israeli historian and author of numerous books,
including The Modern Middle East and The Ethnic Cleansing of
Palestine.
An Israeli soldier searches a child in the West Bank city of Hebron.
Photo: pcdc.edu
Subscribe to the Indypendent!
B.H. Cramer
"Don Ocean" <oc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6979doF...@mid.individual.net...
Oh, I haven't forgotten that, Don. They're given.
>
>>
>>
>
HHW
Maybe it's the lawyer in me but what amazes about "David" is that he
doesn't comprehend his own words. Look a the sentence immediately
above. In it he admits that he is a "booze, drug infested Doodoo
dumbKunt."
DoD
That is why you are *sleazy*
<snicker>