Ladino
SLyles4345
Hey I am thinking of taking Spanish in College and was wondering what if any
Ladino sources there are and was wondering if anyone on the list has a working
knowledge of Ladino and could offer some advice as to where get materials and
etc to help study. Thanks.
Heshy
sarah wrote:
> There are also recordings of Jewish
> songs in Ladino by a singer whose name just flew out of my brain...she
> lives in this area, too...check the ethnic section of a music/record
> store..
Israeli singer Yehoram Gaon has also released recordings of traditional
Jewish songs in Ladino. The name of the album(s) escapes me now, but I
can probably find out sometime within the next 24 hours.
Heshy
David Goldman
>My parents have a Haggadah in Greek, Hebrew, and Ladino that they
>bought in Salonika, I think. It is a great way to study Ladino if you
>know Hebrew because then you will know the meaning from the Hebrew
>while you learn the meaning of the Spanish. There may be a Greek
>Haggadah in your college library. There are also recordings of Jewish
>songs in Ladino by a singer whose name just flew out of my brain...she
>lives in this area, too...check the ethnic section of a music/record
>store..
>Sarah
TRANSLATION INTO LADINO:
Mis parientes tyenen una Hagada en grego, ebreo, i ladino ke merkaron
en Salonika, me parese. Kreo ke es una buena manera de estudiar ladino
si savesh ebreo, porke podesh saver la signifikasyon del ebreo kwando
aprendesh la signifikasyon en espanyol. Podesh enkontrar una hagada en
tu biblioteka universitaria. Ay tambyen diskos de kantes judias en
ladino por un kantor que no rekordo su nombre.... eya vive por aki
tambyen. Va buskar en la seksyon etnika de un magazin de musika.
Daniel Magill
In article <663o7t$d...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>, The...@juno.com
says...
> sarah wrote:
> > There are also recordings of Jewish
> > songs in Ladino by a singer whose name just flew out of my brain...she
> > lives in this area, too...check the ethnic section of a music/record
> > store..
>
> Jewish songs in Ladino. The name of the album(s) escapes me now, but I
> can probably find out sometime within the next 24 hours.
>
believe - which has a number of collections of classical ladino music.
Very hauntingly beatiful.
Danny
Ana Kurland
SLyles4345 (slyle...@aol.com) wrote:
: Hey I am thinking of taking Spanish in College and was wondering what if any
: Ladino sources there are and was wondering if anyone on the list has a working
: knowledge of Ladino and could offer some advice as to where get materials and
: etc to help study. Thanks.
Where are you located? The Library here has a large collection of
Ladino materials. I also know of Ladino classes in Palm Beach, FL and
somewhere in Southern California. If there's a Sephardic Synagogue--maybe
one with a library--near you, give them a call.
@~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ana M. Kurland --Hispanic Division, Library of Congres...@loc.gov
@(202) 707-5400//fax 202-707-2005 http://lcweb.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/
@"I have always imagined that paradise will be a kind of library"
@Jorge Luis Borges
Evan Millner
Try writing to:
The Sephardi Centre
Spanish & Portuguese jews Congregation
Bevis Marks
The City of London
London
England.
SLyles4345 wrote in message
<19971203041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
SLyles4345
That was really cool and I hope one day to be able to carry on a conversation
in Ladino..it is a goal. Thanks for the info everyone!
Albert Reingewirtz
In article <01bcffd8$0c8828c0$082caccf@default>, "sarah"
<sarah...@erols.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> My parents have a Haggadah in Greek, Hebrew, and Ladino that they
> bought in Salonika, I think. It is a great way to study Ladino if you
> know Hebrew because then you will know the meaning from the Hebrew
> while you learn the meaning of the Spanish. There may be a Greek
> Haggadah in your college library. There are also recordings of Jewish
> songs in Ladino by a singer whose name just flew out of my brain...she
> lives in this area, too...check the ethnic section of a music/record
> store..
>
> Sarah
>
> SLyles4345 <slyle...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19971203041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> > Hey I am thinking of taking Spanish in College and was wondering what
> if any
> > Ladino sources there are and was wondering if anyone on the list has
> a working
> > knowledge of Ladino and could offer some advice as to where get
> materials and
> > etc to help study. Thanks.
There is a great CD from the learning company Learn to Speak Spanish.
--
God is not dead, it never existed
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on Wed, 03 Dec 1997 16:13:23 GMT da...@erols.com
(David Goldman) posted:
>>My parents have a Haggadah in Greek, Hebrew, and Ladino that they
>>bought in Salonika, I think. It is a great way to study Ladino if you
>>know Hebrew because then you will know the meaning from the Hebrew
>>while you learn the meaning of the Spanish. There may be a Greek
>>Haggadah in your college library. There are also recordings of Jewish
>>songs in Ladino by a singer whose name just flew out of my brain...she
>>lives in this area, too...check the ethnic section of a music/record
>>store..
>>Sarah
>TRANSLATION INTO LADINO:
>Mis parientes tyenen una Hagada en grego, ebreo, i ladino ke merkaron
>en Salonika, me parese. Kreo ke es una buena manera de estudiar ladino
>si savesh ebreo, porke podesh saver la signifikasyon del ebreo kwando
>aprendesh la signifikasyon en espanyol. Podesh enkontrar una hagada en
>tu biblioteka universitaria. Ay tambyen diskos de kantes judias en
>ladino por un kantor que no rekordo su nombre.... eya vive por aki
>tambyen. Va buskar en la seksyon etnika de un magazin de musika.
Mi parientes tienen una Hagada en greco, ebreo, y ladino que xxxxxxx
en Salonika, me parece. Creo que is una buena manera de estudiar
ladino si sabe hebreo, porque saber la significacion del ebreo cuando
aprende la significasion en espanol. Pode encontrar una hagada en
tu bibiloteca universtaria. Hay tambien discos de cantos judios en
ladino por un cantor que no recordo su nombre... ella vive por aqui
tambien. Va buscar en la seccion xxxxxx du un tienda de musica.
I rewrote this in Spanish so that one could see that it is primarily
the transliteration that distinguishes ladino from Spanish, especially
since this paragraph had little Hebrew. I may have been influenced by
the Ladino and thought some things were the same that aren't, but
there only three words that I wasn't confident were the same in
Spanish, merkaron, etnika, and tienda. Even mercaron is obviously
related to mercado, market. Change the s to c, the k to c or qu, the
kw to cu, the v to b, the i to y for 'and', and the y to double l for
ella or i for tambien, tienen, and significac_i_on, add the initial
silent h for hay and hebreo (ebreo?), and drop the sh from 2nd person
singular formal verb endings, and almost all the words are the same.
I think Ladino, which is written with Hebrew characters, is typically
transliterated in to Latin characters by those who don't know Spanish
and so they don't use Spanish spelling, or perhaps there are binding
rules on how to transliterate Ladino.
P&M
meir
David Goldman
This is not correct Spanish, meirman!
parents= padres
is=es
Can=Puede
sabe nor saber
de una tienda
Jonathan J. Baker
>>>My parents have a Haggadah in Greek, Hebrew, and Ladino that they
>>>bought in Salonika, I think. It is a great way to study Ladino if you
>>>Sarah
>>TRANSLATION INTO LADINO:
>>Mis parientes tyenen una Hagada en grego, ebreo, i ladino ke merkaron
>>en Salonika, me parese. Kreo ke es una buena manera de estudiar ladino
>>si savesh ebreo, porke podesh saver la signifikasyon del ebreo kwando
>Mi parientes tienen una Hagada en greco, ebreo, y ladino que xxxxxxx
>en Salonika, me parece. Creo que is una buena manera de estudiar
>ladino si sabe hebreo, porque saber la significacion del ebreo cuando
>I rewrote this in Spanish so that one could see that it is primarily
>the transliteration that distinguishes ladino from Spanish, especially
But there are some archaisms, and probably some slight changes in
pronunciation, that would be represented by the transliteration
You say "sabe", Goldman says "savesh". Similar, but not identical.
"podesh" not "puedes", again.
If you listen to CDs of people singing medieval Spanish and/or Ladino
music, there is some difference in pronunciation vs. modern Spanish.
Is any of this reflected in Spanish Spanish vs. South American Spanish?
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Jordi Sod
In article <668vl8$le3$3...@winter.news.erols.com>,
>
> >>My parents have a Haggadah in Greek, Hebrew, and Ladino that they
> >>bought in Salonika, I think. It is a great way to study Ladino if you
> >>while you learn the meaning of the Spanish. There may be a Greek
> >>Haggadah in your college library. There are also recordings of Jewish
> >>songs in Ladino by a singer whose name just flew out of my brain...she
> >>lives in this area, too...check the ethnic section of a music/record
> >>store..
>
>
> >TRANSLATION INTO LADINO:
>
> >Mis parientes tyenen una Hagada en grego, ebreo, i ladino ke merkaron
> >en Salonika, me parese. Kreo ke es una buena manera de estudiar ladino
> >si savesh ebreo, porke podesh saver la signifikasyon del ebreo kwando
> >tu biblioteka universitaria. Ay tambyen diskos de kantes judias en
> >ladino por un kantor que no rekordo su nombre.... eya vive por aki
> >tambyen. Va buskar en la seksyon etnika de un magazin de musika.
>
> en Salonika, me parece. Creo que is una buena manera de estudiar
> ladino si sabe hebreo, porque saber la significacion del ebreo cuando
> tu bibiloteca universtaria. Hay tambien discos de cantos judios en
> ladino por un cantor que no recordo su nombre... ella vive por aqui
> tambien. Va buscar en la seccion xxxxxx du un tienda de musica.
Just to be annoying, here's my version of Meir's text.
Mis padres tienen una Agadá en griego, hebreo, y ladino [¡Yo también!
JS] que compraron en Salónica, me parece. Creo que es una buena manera
de estudiar ladino si uno sabe hebreo, pues puedes saber el significado
del español si sabes el de la expresión hebrea. Puedes encontrar una
Agadá en tu biblioteca universitaria. Tambien hay discos de canciones
judías en ladino por un cantante [cantor es el de la sinagoga -- JS]
cuyo no recuerdo. Búscalo en la sección de música étnica en una
disquería.
[...]
>
> I think Ladino, which is written with Hebrew characters, is typically
> transliterated in to Latin characters by those who don't know Spanish
> and so they don't use Spanish spelling, or perhaps there are binding
> rules on how to transliterate Ladino.
Indeed. As a Spanish speaker, I find the current transliteration rather
jarring. Still, I don't know why is it transliterated like that. Turn
of the century books in transliteration already have the k's. Weird...
> meir
Jordi
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
H.D.Miller
In article <669gpv$f...@panix2.panix.com>, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J.
Baker) wrote:
> In <> mei...@erols.com writes:
> >(David Goldman) posted:
[...]
> But there are some archaisms, and probably some slight changes in
> pronunciation, that would be represented by the transliteration
>
> You say "sabe", Goldman says "savesh". Similar, but not identical.
> "podesh" not "puedes", again.
>
> If you listen to CDs of people singing medieval Spanish and/or Ladino
> music, there is some difference in pronunciation vs. modern Spanish.
>
> Is any of this reflected in Spanish Spanish vs. South American Spanish?
Be more interesting to see if it's reflected among the crypto-jews of New
Mexico.
H.D. Miller
MSimanoff
>Is any of this reflected in Spanish Spanish vs. South American Spanish?
>
>
Good question, but not really. Judeo-Spanish (Ladino) is Medieval Spanish,
Spanish that the Jews took from Spain when finally expelled in 1492, or from
Portugal when expelled from there in 1497. From that point, the Medieval
Spanish, mixed with Hebrew words, changed some to accomodate Hebrew
orthography (i.e., "Biva el Rey!") and kept on adding local words from the new
communities that the Sephardim settled in (Turkish- and Arabic-speaking,
mainly, and also Greek).
In South America, the Spanish is a lot closer to Castillian Spanish. The
break from the "motherland" happened much more recently. But the big difference
is: the Sephardim had little or absolutely no contact with Spain while
scattered after the 15th century, and the Latin Americans have been able to
interact with the Spanish freely, and with each other. Both dialects of Spanish
-- Ladino and South American -- have changed in accordance with their
community, but the difference between Ladino and Spanish, and Latin American
Spanish and Spanish Spanish is, in my opinion, of different level.s
Still, somethings are obvious: both dialects pronounce, for example,
"cabeza" like "cabesa," not like "cabetha."
Just some piensas,
Michael Simanoff
NY
MSimanoff
>
>Be more interesting to see if it's reflected among the crypto-jews of New
>Mexico.
The crypto-Jews don't speak Ladino. They had no reason to adopt a separate
Spanish dialect, because they were in Spanish-speaking communities all along.
Also, at this point, 500 years after the largest converso movement, most (if
not all) marks of the conversos has disappeared. Some, of course, have popped
up: family restrictions against eating pork, lighting candles in basements on
Friday nights, family heirlooms with Hebrew inscriptions, but you have to
consider that when you are underground for that long, everything changes, and
this can't really be compared with the Sephardic Ladino speakers.
Michael Simanoff
NY
David Goldman
Bueno Mazal a todos ke keren aprender y saver la lengua
judeo-espanyola! Devemos praktikar muncho para amejorar nos
konosimentos!
Jordi Sod
In article <hdmiller-061...@remote3-arap55.cis.yale.edu>,
hdmi...@mercury.cis.yale.edu (H.D.Miller) wrote:
>
> In article <669gpv$f...@panix2.panix.com>, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J.
> Baker) wrote:
>
> > In <> mei...@erols.com writes:
> > >(David Goldman) posted:
>
> [...]
>
> > But there are some archaisms, and probably some slight changes in
> > pronunciation, that would be represented by the transliteration
> >
> > You say "sabe", Goldman says "savesh". Similar, but not identical.
> > "podesh" not "puedes", again.
> >
> > If you listen to CDs of people singing medieval Spanish and/or Ladino
> > music, there is some difference in pronunciation vs. modern Spanish.
> >
Many varieties of Latin American Spanish has a number of archaizing
features, and in any case retain many Andalusian characteristics (most
of the Spanish immigrants came from the South). I think both Ladino and
Lat. Am. Spanish lack the Castilian "th" sound (as in "thin"), as in
Cacerola. Castilian: ca-the-RO-la. Lat. Am.: ca-se-ro-la. Ladino also
descends from Andalusian Spanish, so you can expect more similarities
between it and a number of Lat. Am. forms than with modern Castilian.
>
> Be more interesting to see if it's reflected among the crypto-jews of New
> Mexico.
Extremely unlikely. Ladino retained its archaizing tendencies for the
simple reason that its speakers were linguistically isolated; they were
Spanish speakers surrounded by Turkish, Arabic, Dutch, etc. communities.
In New Mexico, on the other hand, they were surrounded by other Spanish
speakers; they would have had the same pronunciation as their neighbors.
Their speech would evolve with that of the surrounding community.
>
> H.D. Miller
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:22:33 -0600 Jordi Sod
<jo...@mail.internet.com.mx> posted:
Well, as I predicted, I was somewhat confused by the Ladino. Also, I
learned Spanish Dec. 1970- May 71, and have had no more than six hours
practice since. Considering, I think I did pretty good.
I should have known padres, *h*ebreo, puedo, un*a* tienda.
I never learned cantante. Cuyo I never really used. Didn't know to
place tambien first, although I might have gotten it if not
translating.
OTOH, etnica turned out to be the same.
I don't know how to insert tildes or accents
Of course there are differences, but Jordi, thanks for confirming
that, in my eyes, by far the biggest difference is the
transliteration, and I have seen the same style elsewhere.
P&M to Jordi.
>[...]
>>
>> I think Ladino, which is written with Hebrew characters, is typically
>> transliterated in to Latin characters by those who don't know Spanish
>> and so they don't use Spanish spelling, or perhaps there are binding
>> rules on how to transliterate Ladino.
>Indeed. As a Spanish speaker, I find the current transliteration rather
>jarring. Still, I don't know why is it transliterated like that. Turn
>of the century books in transliteration already have the k's. Weird...
>> meir
>Jordi
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
meir
Jordi Sod
In article <19971207002...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
msim...@aol.com (MSimanoff) wrote:
>
> In South America, the Spanish is a lot closer to Castillian Spanish. The
> break from the "motherland" happened much more recently. But the big
Er... not Castilian, but Andalusian, just as Ladino.
difference
> is: the Sephardim had little or absolutely no contact with Spain while
> scattered after the 15th century, and the Latin Americans have been able to
> interact with the Spanish freely, and with each other. Both dialects of
Spanish
> -- Ladino and South American -- have changed in accordance with their
> community, but the difference between Ladino and Spanish, and Latin American
> Spanish and Spanish Spanish is, in my opinion, of different level.s
Agreed.
> Still, somethings are obvious: both dialects pronounce, for example,
> "cabeza" like "cabesa," not like "cabetha."
Some remarks:
-- As mentioned above, both Lat. Am. and Ladino Spanish descend
from Andalusian, which accounts for certain similarities
between the two.
-- Ladino has some words in common with Portuguese that are
lacking in modern Spanish. This probably is due to, among
other things: portuguese Jewish influence, and archaism (Sp.
and Port. may have both had the word, but Sp. lost it. Port.
is usually more conservative than Sp.).
-- Lat. Am. speech can vary a lot from one part to the other.
One classification speaks of Central and Northern Mexican,
Central American, Caribbean, Andean, and Southern dialects
(more or less). Caribbean, in some ways the most "modern,"
due to extended contact with the metropolis, comes closest
to modern Andalusian ("eating" end consonants, for example,
is a common feature of both dialects).
>
> Just some piensas,
> Michael Simanoff
> NY
Munchos saludos,
Jordi Sod
Nueva Sephard
David Goldman
>- As mentioned above, both Lat. Am. and Ladino Spanish descend
>from Andalusian, which accounts for certain similarities
>between the two.
Notice that there is alot of Portuguese influence in Ladino by virtue
of the fact that many refugees from Portugal got to Salonika, etc. and
you will find they added their influences. Also, I have noticed
significant influences from Catalan.
>-- Ladino has some words in common with Portuguese that are
>lacking in modern Spanish. This probably is due to, among
>other things: portuguese Jewish influence, and archaism (Sp.
>and Port. may have both had the word, but Sp. lost it. Port.
>is usually more conservative than Sp.).
>-- Lat. Am. speech can vary a lot from one part to the other.
>One classification speaks of Central and Northern Mexican,
>Central American, Caribbean, Andean, and Southern dialects
>(more or less). Caribbean, in some ways the most "modern,"
>due to extended contact with the metropolis, comes closest
>to modern Andalusian ("eating" end consonants, for example,
>is a common feature of both dialects).
>>
>> Just some piensas,
>> Michael Simanoff
>> NY
Boy is this thread refreshing.
Es un sujeto muy interesante!
R
Santayana etc) you have also found the time to learn Ladino. Very
interesting! You seem to have very broad interests and knowledge for
someone who follows the straight and narrow path of only the Gedolim of
yesteryear, and dismises any and all of today's Gedolim who disagree
with his narrow point of view as "heretics", "take bribes," "big yetzer
hora" etc (not exact quotes).
So, at the risk of repeating myself (it is not a "risk" -- I am really
going to repeat myself) Follow in the ways of the Gedolim you quote.
Less posting, more Tehillim, more davening, more learning. By learning,
I mean learning Torah, not learning Santayana. And, not learning foreign
languages. Unless you have some Torah purpose in mind. Do you perhaps
attend a Yeshiva where the Rosh Yeshivah says his shiurim in Ladino, and
you had to learn the language so that you could understand him? If this
is so, then I have misjudged you (on this one particular item). Just
post or E-Mail me that this is a fact, and I will apologize, publicaly
or privately (your choice). Otherwise, stop you bitul zman and bitul
Torah, and get back to the basics of what the Gedolim require of you.
Ethel Jean Saltz
On Sun, 07 Dec 1997 03:04:37 GMT, da...@erols.com (David Goldman)
wrote:
>Bueno Mazal a todos ke keren aprender y saver la lengua
>judeo-espanyola! Devemos praktikar muncho para amejorar nos
>konosimentos!
==================
Hey, I don't know Ladino and stopped speaking Spanish in 1950 after I
graduated in Latin-American Culture and Civilization, but I can
understand the above.
So just as we transliterate Hebrew into English, the German Jews
transliterated German into Hebrew and the Sephardic transliterated
Spanish into Hebrew?
So if we transliterated English into Hebrew, what will we call it?
I'm all for it since I want to Judaize and Americanize the world.
LANGUAGE, TRUTH AND LOGIC by A.J.Ayers.
be-Ahavah ve-Shalom, Ethel Jean of Creekbend,
MAC-NIET-SPIN-GAL,
Khai Y'all, C-O-H-N, ADTR, 0388A.G.,
Trinity=Torah(Ethics)+Ne'eveem(Sociology)
+Ketuveem(Multimedia)
Trinity=Periodic Table of Elements
+Direct Current Circuits+Electromagnetic Spectrum
David Goldman
>So, at the risk of repeating myself (it is not a "risk" -- I am really
>going to repeat myself) Follow in the ways of the Gedolim you quote.
>Less posting, more Tehillim, more davening, more learning. By learning,
>I mean learning Torah, not learning Santayana. And, not learning foreign
>languages. Unless you have some Torah purpose in mind. Do you perhaps
>attend a Yeshiva where the Rosh Yeshivah says his shiurim in Ladino, and
>you had to learn the language so that you could understand him? If this
>is so, then I have misjudged you (on this one particular item). Just
>post or E-Mail me that this is a fact, and I will apologize, publicaly
>or privately (your choice). Otherwise, stop you bitul zman and bitul
>Torah, and get back to the basics of what the Gedolim require of you.
Boy, am I glad I have you for my social worker or therapist. Maybe I
should just keep you guessing. You know ba'al teshuvas have colorful
backgrounds and cannot always be pigeon-holed one way or the other. If
I keep shabbos and am against heresy but am linguistically inclined
with advanced secular degrees, interested in Jewish history and
chasidism, what does that make me? I don't think the average secular
OR religious Jew could easily pigeon-hole me. For that matter, I
taught myself Yiddish - Zei nisht azoy a kop fardreyer! Why would what
I do be against any gadol? Isn't there something to be said about a
person who can function among different elements, and demonstrate the
importance of Yiddishkeit - Judiazmo??
David Goldman
>So if we transliterated English into Hebrew, what will we call it?
>I'm all for it since I want to Judaize and Americanize the world.
>LANGUAGE, TRUTH AND LOGIC by A.J.Ayers.
Don't make the mistake that Ladino is Spanish transliterated into
Hebrew letters. That is not what it is, or Yiddish for that matter.
Then there is Yinglish:
I can't be soyvel the kashes I keep getting from fremde menschen who
can't be a bissel mehr open-minded to think about looking for the
emes.....
R
little Ladino message earlier in this thread. But, Yiddish IS my native
language (my only language until I was six) and your little example here
is pretty poor. How do you communicate with your Neturei Karta Gedolim?
You don't speak Yiddish (it we can judge by this example), they don't
speak English, and I assume that neither of you will commit the sin of
speaking Hebrew. So, what language do you speak? Ladino?
R
are right. But, you are not consistent. You want everyone to tolerate
your own private brand of pluralistic world-outlook, which is yours
alone. But you won't tolerate others to do the same. You constantly harp
on what your select group of Gedolim say, and you wish to impose this on
everyone else. Whoever disagrees with you is a heretic, even if everyone
else today considers him a Gadol. But there are NO Gedolim, of today or
of yesteryear, who would approve of your continuous bittul zman. Or am I
wrong? Perhaps you can point me to some teshuvot or other Halachic
opinions from Anti-Zionist Gedolim (the only kind you recognise) who
approve your continuing to pursue these interests long after you have
become a baal teshuvah.
David Goldman
>For the first time, I have to agree with your post in its entirety. You
>are right. But, you are not consistent. You want everyone to tolerate
>your own private brand of pluralistic world-outlook, which is yours
>alone. But you won't tolerate others to do the same. You constantly harp
>on what your select group of Gedolim say, and you wish to impose this on
>everyone else. Whoever disagrees with you is a heretic, even if everyone
>else today considers him a Gadol. But there are NO Gedolim, of today or
>of yesteryear, who would approve of your continuous bittul zman. Or am I
>wrong? Perhaps you can point me to some teshuvot or other Halachic
>opinions from Anti-Zionist Gedolim (the only kind you recognise) who
>approve your continuing to pursue these interests long after you have
>become a baal teshuvah.
Then you misunderstand what I said. Nothing I discussed is outside the
framework of halachic Judaism. A heretic is not one who disagrees with
me, but someone who rejects the foundations of our faith. Your
assessment of what constitutes bitul zman is all mixed up. Is a person
who teaches carpentry wasting his time? Is someone who volunteers in a
hospital wasting his time? Is someone who engages in intellectual
discussion to clarify the truth wasting his time? You are all mixed
up on this. Probably some teacher slapped you around too hard, and now
you are rebelling against everything!
David Goldman
>You don't speak Yiddish (it we can judge by this example), they don't
>speak English, and I assume that neither of you will commit the sin of
>speaking Hebrew. So, what language do you speak? Ladino?
Where is your sense of humor? Don't you know about Yinglish? My first
language is English, so what? I speak Hebrew with people who know
neither Yiddish or English. So what? How else does one communicate
with them? In Basque?
Joe Slater
On Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:21:07 -0600, Jordi Sod
<jo...@mail.internet.com.mx> wrote:
>Caribbean, in some ways the most "modern,"
>due to extended contact with the metropolis, comes closest
>to modern Andalusian ("eating" end consonants, for example,
>is a common feature of both dialects).
In Ladino the end consonants of words are not eaten. Rather, they are
sold off to non-Jewish linguists who prize them greatly. The end
consonants may technically be eaten by Jews but the lengthy procedure
is uneconomical except in Israel.
jds
MSimanoff
>
>-- As mentioned above, both Lat. Am. and Ladino Spanish descend
>from Andalusian, which accounts for certain similarities
>between the two.
>lacking in modern Spanish. This probably is due to, among
>other things: portuguese Jewish influence, and archaism (Sp.
>and Port. may have both had the word, but Sp. lost it. Port.
>is usually more conservative than Sp.).
>-- Lat. Am. speech can vary a lot from one part to the other.
>One classification speaks of Central and Northern Mexican,
>Central American, Caribbean, Andean, and Southern dialects
>due to extended contact with the metropolis, comes closest
>to modern Andalusian ("eating" end consonants, for example,
>is a common feature of both dialects).
>
>
Jordi,
Thanks for the corrections. I meant to type "Andalusian," but my mind was
somewhere else (probably Madrid!). But aside from having to correct my little
slip there, your comments were very useful. Thanks.
Adio,
Michael
MSimanoff
Please, if you want to to rage at David Goldman with the ruekh of the neviim,
please start another thread for it. We started this one to discuss Ladino.
Regardless of whether or not I agree with your criticisms, please do this
either over e-mail, or start a thread called "Toire iz di beste skhoire".
A sheinem dank,
Miguel
R
thread, where he constantly lambastes "Zionist heretics." His
participation in this thread is merely another inconsistency in his
arguments. But I will respect your wishes, and confine myself to the
other thread, snipping quotes from this one (and others) if necessary.
My deepest respects and admiration to the Ladino-speaking community and
all other Sephardic groups. I myself have a son-in-law who is half
Sephardi (though his father speaks Arabic and English, not Ladino).
Justin C. Fauci
Then there's always my favorite "Yeshivish"!!!!!
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on 7 Dec 1997 00:26:43 GMT msim...@aol.com
(MSimanoff) posted:
>>Is any of this reflected in Spanish Spanish vs. South American Spanish?
>>
>>
>Good question, but not really. Judeo-Spanish (Ladino) is Medieval Spanish,
>Spanish that the Jews took from Spain when finally expelled in 1492, or from
>Portugal when expelled from there in 1497. From that point, the Medieval
>Spanish, mixed with Hebrew words, changed some to accomodate Hebrew
>orthography (i.e., "Biva el Rey!")
Are you saying that beh vaca and beh burro are related to Hebrew? I
noticed that both languages see some relationship between b and v, but
I thought that was because there actually is one linguistically and
not that Hebrew influenced Spanish in this regard.
P&M
and kept on adding local words from the new
>communities that the Sephardim settled in (Turkish- and Arabic-speaking,
>mainly, and also Greek).
> In South America, the Spanish is a lot closer to Castillian Spanish. The
>break from the "motherland" happened much more recently. But the big difference
>is: the Sephardim had little or absolutely no contact with Spain while
>scattered after the 15th century, and the Latin Americans have been able to
>interact with the Spanish freely, and with each other. Both dialects of Spanish
>-- Ladino and South American -- have changed in accordance with their
>community, but the difference between Ladino and Spanish, and Latin American
>Spanish and Spanish Spanish is, in my opinion, of different level.s
> Still, somethings are obvious: both dialects pronounce, for example,
>"cabeza" like "cabesa," not like "cabetha."
>Just some piensas,
>Michael Simanoff
>NY
meir
Jordi Sod
In article <349017f7....@newsserver.cc.monash.edu.au>,
j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) wrote:
>
> On Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:21:07 -0600, Jordi Sod
> <jo...@mail.internet.com.mx> wrote:
> >due to extended contact with the metropolis, comes closest
> >to modern Andalusian ("eating" end consonants, for example,
> >is a common feature of both dialects).
>
> sold off to non-Jewish linguists who prize them greatly. The end
> consonants may technically be eaten by Jews but the lengthy procedure
> is uneconomical except in Israel.
I was referring to Caribbean Spanish, not Ladino. Thusly,
Caribbean Sp. comes closest to modern Andalusian, not Ladino.
Incidentally, Ladino uses Dio instead of Dios to refer to God. To
its speakers, Dios sounded too similar to a plural, and well, there
is only one God.
>
> jds
Regards,
Jordi
P.S. On an Ashkenazi note, I went to see Itzhak Perlman's
show "In the Fiddler's House" yesterday. Three, yes,
three kletzmer bands. Whee!!!
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
Maybe I ought to post the *yeshivish* version of the Gettysburg Address:
(yeshivish: a language like Ebonics, but spoken in American yeshivas)
"Be'erech a yoivel and a half ago, the meyasdim shtelled avek on this
makom a naiya malchus with the kavana that no one should have bailus over
their chaver, and on this yesoid that everyone has the zelba zchusim.
We're holding by a geferliche machloikes being machria if this medina,
or an andere medina made in the same oifen and with the same machshovos,
can have a kiyum. We are all mitztaref on the daled amos where a chalois
of that machloikes happened in order to be mechabed the soldiers who
dinged zich with each other. We are here to be koiveia chotsh a chelek
of that karka as a kever the bekavoidike soldiers who were moiser nefesh
and were niftar to give a chiyus to our nation. Yashrus is mechayev us to
do this lemaiseh, hagam the velt won't be goiress or machshiv what we
speak out here, it's zicher not shayach for them to forget what they tued
uf here. We are mechuyav to be meshabed ourselves to the melocha in
which these soldiers made a haschala, that vibalt they were moiser
nefesh for this eisek, we must be mamash torud in it; that we are all
mekabel on ourselves to be moisif on their peula so that their maisim
should not be a bracha levatalla, that Hashem should give the gantze
oilam a naiya bren for cheirus - that a nation that shtams by the
oilam, by the oilam, by the oilam, will blaib fest ahn oilam."
There actually was a book that came out 2 years ago on the linguistic
aspects of yeshivish. I kid you not :-)
Josh
>>
>>
>
Heshy
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
> There actually was a book that came out 2 years ago on the linguistic
> aspects of yeshivish. I kid you not :-)
By my fellow Ohr Yerushalayim high school alumnus Chaim Moshe Weiser,
who is also a graduate of Philadelphia Yeshiva. Published by Jason
Aronson, I believe.
Heshy
MSimanoff
>Ladino uses Dio instead of Dios to refer to God. To
>its speakers, Dios sounded too similar to a plural, and well, there
>is only one God.
>
>
The jacket notes in "Circle of Fire," the Hanukah Concert by Voice of the
Turtle (quick review: great stuff, but start with their other recordings first)
has this under the famous song "Adio Kerida": "It is interesting to note that
the word is 'Adio' not 'Adios' -- the Sephardic Jews adhering linguistically to
the concept of one God."
If we forget that our Torah begins "Bereishit bara Elohim," then that sounds
very nice. I am very aware that Elohim apparently refers to the Tseva'ot, but
the fact is, it's still used all over the Tanakh.
Just interesting to note that in one case, the plural use was rationalized and
explained by our Rabbis, but in the other case, even the suggestion of
similarity between a word for God and a plural was erased!
Michael
Zev Sero
On 8 Dec 97 19:41:28 GMT, bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>"Be'erech a yoivel and a half ago, the meyasdim shtelled avek on this
>makom a naiya malchus with the kavana that no one should have bailus over
>their chaver, and on this yesoid that everyone has the zelba zchusim.
>We're holding by a geferliche machloikes being machria if this medina,
>or an andere medina made in the same oifen and with the same machshovos,
>can have a kiyum. We are all mitztaref on the daled amos where a chalois
>of that machloikes happened in order to be mechabed the soldiers who
>dinged zich with each other. We are here to be koiveia chotsh a chelek
>of that karka as a kever the bekavoidike soldiers who were moiser nefesh
>and were niftar to give a chiyus to our nation. Yashrus is mechayev us to
>do this lemaiseh, hagam the velt won't be goiress or machshiv what we
>speak out here, it's zicher not shayach for them to forget what they tued
>uf here. We are mechuyav to be meshabed ourselves to the melocha in
>which these soldiers made a haschala, that vibalt they were moiser
>nefesh for this eisek, we must be mamash torud in it; that we are all
>mekabel on ourselves to be moisif on their peula so that their maisim
>should not be a bracha levatalla, that Hashem should give the gantze
>oilam a naiya bren for cheirus - that a nation that shtams by the
>oilam, by the oilam, by the oilam, will blaib fest ahn oilam."
ROTFL. This one's a keeper. Thanks, Josh.
--
Zev Sero Imminent death of the net delayed, Film at 12.
zs...@idt.net - Joe Greco
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:41:37 -0600 Jordi Sod
<jo...@mail.internet.com.mx> posted:
>In article <349017f7....@newsserver.cc.monash.edu.au>,
> j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:21:07 -0600, Jordi Sod
>> <jo...@mail.internet.com.mx> wrote:
>> >Caribbean, in some ways the most "modern,"
>> >due to extended contact with the metropolis, comes closest
>> >to modern Andalusian ("eating" end consonants, for example,
>> >is a common feature of both dialects).
>>
>> In Ladino the end consonants of words are not eaten. Rather, they are
>> sold off to non-Jewish linguists who prize them greatly. The end
>> consonants may technically be eaten by Jews but the lengthy procedure
>> is uneconomical except in Israel.
>I was referring to Caribbean Spanish, not Ladino. Thusly,
>Caribbean Sp. comes closest to modern Andalusian, not Ladino.
>Incidentally, Ladino uses Dio instead of Dios to refer to God. To
>its speakers, Dios sounded too similar to a plural, and well, there
>is only one God.
Cool. Is Dios plural, or a plural form. Does it take singular verbs
adjectives and pronouns? Any other clues?
Either way, I like Dio.
P&M
>>
>> jds
>Regards,
>Jordi
>P.S. On an Ashkenazi note, I went to see Itzhak Perlman's
>show "In the Fiddler's House" yesterday. Three, yes,
>three kletzmer bands. Whee!!!
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
meir
Albert Reingewirtz
In article <348b218a...@news.erols.com>, da...@erols.com (David
Goldman) wrote:
You miss his point maybe? As a O not only did they not want the state of
Israel to exist but speaking Hebrew was and still is an abomination for
O's. Yet the SOB's want and do rule in Israel. Those Ayahtollah's in black
dressed funny by their mothers should be thrown out of Israel since in
reality they are seeing Israel as a tit that can be left when it runs dry,
nothing more.
--
God is not dead, it never existed
Jonathan J. Baker
>>"Be'erech a yoivel and a half ago, the meyasdim shtelled avek on this
...
>>oilam, by the oilam, by the oilam, will blaib fest ahn oilam."
>ROTFL. This one's a keeper. Thanks, Josh.
He's quoting without attribution from "Frumspeak" by Chaim
M. Weiser, page xxxiii.
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Aharon Manne
MSimanoff <msim...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971209021...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >Ladino uses Dio instead of Dios to refer to God. To
> >its speakers, Dios sounded too similar to a plural, and well, there
> >is only one God.
> has this under the famous song "Adio Kerida": "It is interesting to note
that
> the word is 'Adio' not 'Adios' -- the Sephardic Jews adhering
linguistically to
> the concept of one God."
Before we get carried away, bear in mind that the Spanish word Dios comes
from the Latin word Deus, which is a perfectly regular second declension
singular noun.
Who said a classical education is useless?
David Goldman
>Those Ayahtollah's in black
>dressed funny by their mothers should be thrown out of Israel since in
>reality they are seeing Israel as a tit that can be left when it runs dry,
>nothing more.
>--
>God is not dead, it never existed
Heil Hitler!
Albert is really Goebbels in his garb!
David Goldman
>Cool. Is Dios plural, or a plural form. Does it take singular verbs
>adjectives and pronouns? Any other clues?
>Either way, I like Dio.
>P&M
The name for G-d was always spelled DIO even though the S is not a
plural in Spanish or Latin. It was a was of protesting Catholicism.
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on 9 Dec 1997 14:27:44 GMT "Aharon Manne"
<ma...@siemensdc.com> posted:
Silver medal in Indiana 2nd year latin contest. I was supposed to
know that.
I know the latin plural, dei, but what is the Spanish plural, dioses?
posted
meir
mei...@erols.com
In soc.culture.jewish on Tue, 09 Dec 1997 15:27:54 GMT da...@erols.com
(David Goldman) posted:
>>P&M
Good. I too believe in the power of words.
posted
meir
R
Zev Sero wrote:
>
> On 8 Dec 97 19:41:28 GMT, bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>
> >"Be'erech a yoivel and a half ago, the meyasdim shtelled avek on this
> >their chaver, and on this yesoid that everyone has the zelba zchusim.
> >We're holding by a geferliche machloikes being machria if this medina,
> >or an andere medina made in the same oifen and with the same machshovos,
> >can have a kiyum. We are all mitztaref on the daled amos where a chalois
> >of that machloikes happened in order to be mechabed the soldiers who
> >dinged zich with each other. We are here to be koiveia chotsh a chelek
> >of that karka as a kever the bekavoidike soldiers who were moiser nefesh
> >and were niftar to give a chiyus to our nation. Yashrus is mechayev us to
> >do this lemaiseh, hagam the velt won't be goiress or machshiv what we
> >speak out here, it's zicher not shayach for them to forget what they tued
> >uf here. We are mechuyav to be meshabed ourselves to the melocha in
> >which these soldiers made a haschala, that vibalt they were moiser
> >nefesh for this eisek, we must be mamash torud in it; that we are all
> >mekabel on ourselves to be moisif on their peula so that their maisim
> >should not be a bracha levatalla, that Hashem should give the gantze
> >oilam, by the oilam, by the oilam, will blaib fest ahn oilam."
>
> ROTFL. This one's a keeper. Thanks, Josh.
Micha Berger
On 8 Dec 97 19:41:28 GMT, someone wrote:
> "Be'erech a yoivel and a half ago, the meyasdim shtelled avek on this
Is this in violation of copyright law or the prohibition of hasagas g'vul
(unfairly stepping in on someone else's trade)?
> makom a naiya malchus with the kavana that no one should have bailus over
I think "no gavra" would be more true to the spirit than "no one".
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3992 days!
mi...@aishdas.org (16-Oct-86 - 11-Dec-97)
For a mitzvah is a candle, and the Torah its light.
http://aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
In article <66p3s1$alq$3...@news1.deshaw.com>, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> writes:
> On 8 Dec 97 19:41:28 GMT, someone wrote:
>> "Be'erech a yoivel and a half ago, the meyasdim shtelled avek on this
>
> Is this in violation of copyright law or the prohibition of hasagas g'vul
> (unfairly stepping in on someone else's trade)?
I plead guilty.
Actually, I had received it in email from someone who had posted it in
another list. It was only afterwards that I was informed that it came
from FrumSpeak.
I am rather amazed that certain people ASSUMED I had copied it directly
from FrumSpeak.
Josh
Micha Berger
In article <66p3s1$alq$3...@news1.deshaw.com>, I wrote:
: Is this in violation of copyright law or the prohibition of hasagas g'vul
: (unfairly stepping in on someone else's trade)?
On 12 Dec 97 11:46:10 GMT, bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
: I plead guilty.
I'm not sure about US law, however, I speant a couple of minutes looking at
the Jewish issues. It would appear that printing a quote from a book is not
necessarily hasagas g'vul.
Hasagas g'vul is when one causes another an unfair loss of income. Only if
printing the quote would significantly reduce income from book sales would
this be a violation. I don't know how much loss is "significant".
Either way, in this case, it is quite likely that the number of people who'd
buy the book because of the cute teaser Josh posted would offset the number
of people who would have bought the book just for this quote, but now wouldn't.
Especially when you figure that Josh's post was an ad during a period when
many Jews are gift shopping.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3993 days!
mi...@aishdas.org (16-Oct-86 - 12-Dec-97)
Amitai Halevi
On 8 Dec 1997 bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.971207...@oak.liii.com>, "Justin C. Fauci" <jfa...@liii.com> writes:
> > Then there's always my favorite "Yeshivish"!!!!!
> >
> > On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, David Goldman wrote:
> >
> >> >So if we transliterated English into Hebrew, what will we call it?
> >> >I'm all for it since I want to Judaize and Americanize the world.
> >> >LANGUAGE, TRUTH AND LOGIC by A.J.Ayers.
> >>
> >> Don't make the mistake that Ladino is Spanish transliterated into
> >> Hebrew letters. That is not what it is, or Yiddish for that matter.
> >> Then there is Yinglish:
> >>
> >> I can't be soyvel the kashes I keep getting from fremde menschen who
> >> can't be a bissel mehr open-minded to think about looking for the
> >> emes.....
>
>
> Maybe I ought to post the *yeshivish* version of the Gettysburg Address:
> (yeshivish: a language like Ebonics, but spoken in American yeshivas)
>
> "Be'erech a yoivel and a half ago, the meyasdim shtelled avek on this
> makom a naiya malchus with the kavana that no one should have bailus over
> their chaver, and on this yesoid that everyone has the zelba zchusim.
> We're holding by a geferliche machloikes being machria if this medina,
> or an andere medina made in the same oifen and with the same machshovos,
> can have a kiyum. We are all mitztaref on the daled amos where a chalois
~~~~~~~
> of that machloikes happened in order to be mechabed the soldiers who
> dinged zich with each other. We are here to be koiveia chotsh a chelek
> of that karka as a kever the bekavoidike soldiers who were moiser nefesh
> and were niftar to give a chiyus to our nation. Yashrus is mechayev us to
> do this lemaiseh, hagam the velt won't be goiress or machshiv what we
> speak out here, it's zicher not shayach for them to forget what they tued
> uf here. We are mechuyav to be meshabed ourselves to the melocha in
> which these soldiers made a haschala, that vibalt they were moiser
> nefesh for this eisek, we must be mamash torud in it; that we are all
> mekabel on ourselves to be moisif on their peula so that their maisim
> should not be a bracha levatalla, that Hashem should give the gantze
> oilam a naiya bren for cheirus - that a nation that shtams by the
> oilam, by the oilam, by the oilam, will blaib fest ahn oilam."
>
My command of "Yeshivish being less than perfect, I would
welcome an esplanation of "chalois".
Also, why three "by the oilam"s? Couldn't any other word be
substituted for one or the other "by"s?
>
> There actually was a book that came out 2 years ago on the linguistic
> aspects of yeshivish. I kid you not :-)
>
> Josh
>
Kol hakavod.
Far and away the most enjoyable post that Josh has submitted
to s.c.j. since I have been following this NG.
Amitai
Heshy
Amitai Halevi wrote:
> Also, why three "by the oilam"s? Couldn't any other word be
> substituted for one or the other "by"s?
NO! That's exactly the point! "By" is the all-purpose preposition in
Yeshivish!
Heshy
Micha Berger
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:58:56 GMT, Amitai Halevi <chr...@aluf.technion.ac.il> wrote:
: My command of "Yeshivish being less than perfect, I would
: welcome an esplanation of "chalois".
Amitai, the word would be "chalot" in Israeli pronunciation.
Chal means "to occur" or "to fall out on" -- as in "If Purim is chal on
Sunday..." (Tr Megillah 2a).
Chalos is the change of halachic status. This is in distinction to the
pe'ulah, the physical act that caused such a change. The distinction
between pe'ulah and chalos, in particular any difference of timing between
them, is the subject of many halachic debates, particularly if one
studies the Gemara in the Brisker Derech (the method popularized by Rav
Chaim Brisker a somewhat over a century ago).
For people who have some background on the subject, I recommend a very funny
and informative article, by Rabbi Yoseph Gavriel Bechhofer. In it he
clearly shows the difference between the various learning styles by seeing
how they'd address the classical question, "What makes tea sweet, is it the
sugar or the spoon stirring?" As I said, despite the humor, it makes the
different styles more clear. The article is at:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/6147/derachim.htm
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> Amitai Halevi <chr...@aluf.technion.ac.il> writes:
>On 8 Dec 1997 bac...@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> can have a kiyum. We are all mitztaref on the daled amos where a chalois
> ~~~~~~~
>> of that machloikes happened in order to be mechabed the soldiers who
>My command of "Yeshivish being less than perfect, I would
>welcome an esplanation of "chalois".
Chalot: occurrence
--
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Amitai Halevi
Thanks.
I would pronounce it "`halut", with a "shuruk", so I would have
assumed the Yeshivish version to be "chalus" or "chales".
But even if it is read - incorrectly IMO - with a "`holam", why
the diphthong "oi"?
> --
> Jonathan Baker
> jjb...@panix.com
>
>
Micha Berger
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:31:34 GMT, Amitai Halevi <chr...@aluf.technion.ac.il> wrote:
: But even if it is read - incorrectly IMO - with a "`holam", why
: the diphthong "oi"?
Such is the custom of Poiland. Poilisher havara (pronunciation) uses that
sound for every choilum. For the same reason, Yiddish has only choilums
and no hard long /O/ sound.
Could be worse: in Litta, it would be called "chalays".
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3995 days!
mi...@aishdas.org (16-Oct-86 - 15-Dec-97)