MARRIAGE VIA INTERCOURSE

[David Suna]

Just a few comments.

>Let's start all over on this one.
>
>1. According to Jewish law, any time a man has intercourse with his wife
>he should engaging in it l'shem mitzvah. Why should there be any
>difference between kedushin via intercourse and intercourse for the
>command of pru u'revu (to be fruitful and multiply).
>
First of all this is not necessarily true. It depends on how you define
mitzvat ona. There is a prohibition against forcing your wife to have
intercourse. The Shulchan Aruch describes marital relations similarly
to the way that you have said, in which every intercourse should be with
the intent of fulfilling mitzvat ona. This is not the general view of
the Rishonim. Most Rishonim and Poskim other than the Shulchan Aruch
admit the possibility of intercourse for the sake of (mutual) pleasure.
If you include this within the definition of ona then every act of
intercourse is a fulfillment of the mitzvah.
The other issue here is the question of intent. Bia lshem kiddushin
requires (as the term implies) that the intent of the act be to
establish kiddushin. If the intent is not such then the intercourse
reverts to znut. As such intention is paramount when discussing this
method of kiddushin. Marital relations on the other hand, even with
the admonision of the Shulchan Aruch, does not require intent to
fulfill the mitzvat ona so as not to be considered znut. Therefore,
there is no real emphasis on intent during marital relations, and
there is a great difference between marital relations and bia lshem
kiddushin.

>2. Kedushin must be carried out in front of two witnesses. Will someone
>please explain to me how writhing around in a bed (all-be-it under the
>covers) in front of one's two best friends could be considered anything
>but an act l'shem mitzvah.
>
Two minor points. You should not use your best friends as witnesses as
they may be considered prejudiced and may possibly be considered posul
as witnesses. Also, in the heat of passion it could be very easy to
become oblivious to your surroundings and lose the almost herculean
concentration necessary to accomplish Bia lshem kiddushin (see above).
>
>Ezra L. Tepper, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel

David Suna
su...@nynexst.com

[Bruce Krulwich]

David Suna's post should have cleared up several of the issue in "Bia L'Shem
Kiddushin" [intercourse to make a marriage], but left out one thing:

>>2. Kedushin must be carried out in front of two witnesses. Will someone
>>please explain to me how writhing around in a bed (all-be-it under the
>>covers) in front of one's two best friends could be considered anything
>>but an act l'shem mitzvah.
>>
>Two minor points. You should not use your best friends as witnesses as
>they may be considered prejudiced and may possibly be considered posul
>as witnesses. Also, in the heat of passion it could be very easy to
>become oblivious to your surroundings and lose the almost herculean
>concentration necessary to accomplish Bia lshem kiddushin (see above).

I believe that the witnesses for Bia L'Shem Kiddushin are not actually Edei
Ma'aseh, witnesses to the action, but rather are Edei Yichud, witnesses that
the couple went into a private place where intercourse could properly have
taken place and were there for a sufficient amount of time. The obvious
reason is that actually having Edei Ma'aseh for intercourse is very improper.
An analogy might be the witnesses to a woman convert immersing in the Mikva,
who do not actually see her going in for modesty reasons.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, and if anyone wants I can check
into references (somewhere around Daf 10 of Kiddushin).

Bruce Krulwich
krul...@ils.nwu.edu

[Ezra L Tepper]

Bruce Krulwich <krul...@ils.nwu.edu> writes

> Because having intercourse l'shem mitzvah was basically
> impossible, the sages instituted a punishment (lashes) for a man who did
> this.

Let's start all over on this one.

1. According to Jewish law, any time a man has intercourse with his wife
he should engaging in it l'shem mitzvah. Why should there be any
difference between kedushin via intercourse and intercourse for the
command of pru u'revu (to be fruitful and multiply).

2. Kedushin must be carried out in front of two witnesses. Will someone

please explain to me how writhing around in a bed (all-be-it under the
covers) in front of one's two best friends could be considered anything
but an act l'shem mitzvah.

Ezra L. Tepper, Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot, Israel

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