Personal Kiddush (was Re: Movements re...)
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> tryin...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:13:27 GMT, mei...@qqqerols.com wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> > : Also in another case, such as Kiddush, where there is no special
>> > : practice for each person to make his own berocha, that is, one can
>> > : rely on another person at the table, saying omain doesn't mean that
>> > : you're duty is fulfilled, so that if you say it again alone it is
>> > : blessing in vain?
>> >
>> > Kiddush isn't special in this way. Any berachah could be made
>> > by each person or by one person for everyone. I think the
>> > distinction you're highlighting is cultural, not halachic. IOW,
>> > people tend to have one kiddush pertable, but it didn't have
>> > to be that way.
>>
>> I have been in chasidic households where every adult male is
>> expected to make their own kiddush. Anyone know where that
>> started?
>
> AFAIK it's simply doing the mitzvah b'hiddur.
There is a difference of opinion whether the hiddur of "mitzva bo
yoser mibishlucha" - it is a greater mitzva to perform the act
oneself, rather than rely on an agent - is better. Some, notably
Litvaks prefer the hidur of "Berov am hadras melech" - in a multitude
is the glory of the king.
> There is a song in any zemirot book that contains the verse:
> "[Shabbat is hallowed and beloved;] therefore let every man bless
> on his own wine." I don't know about this particular zemer, but
> AFAIK most if not all of them are way older than Chasidism.
>
> (In my house I always inquire of guests as to whether they intend
> to listen in or make their own kiddush, so as to know whom to have
> in mind.
I used to do it that way. It can cause problems if you made a wrong
assumption. Nowadays my intent is to keep in mind "_anyone_ who wants
me to keep hir in mind".
> And since the mitzvah of evening kiddush is gender-neutral, I
> always offer the option to any ladies that are present.)
Hm. That I never saw. Do any of them take you up on it?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> "We say kiddush over wine, perform kiddushin with women, and call The
> Song of Songs 'Kodesh Kodashim of the Torah'. So you see -- the three
> holiest things in Judaism are wine, women, and song!" -- R. Aryeh Kaplan
Cute. I would have expected that line from Shlomo.
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
(mailed & posted)
Yisroel Markov
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
> Yisroel Markov <y...@my-deja.com> writes:
> > tryin...@my-deja.com wrote:
[snip]
> >> I have been in chasidic households where every adult male is
> >> expected to make their own kiddush. Anyone know where that
> >> started?
> >
> > AFAIK it's simply doing the mitzvah b'hiddur.
>
> There is a difference of opinion whether the hiddur of "mitzva bo
> yoser mibishlucha" - it is a greater mitzva to perform the act
> oneself, rather than rely on an agent - is better. Some, notably
> Litvaks prefer the hidur of "Berov am hadras melech" - in a multitude
> is the glory of the king.
Which is fine by me, as you've probably guessed. Or are you saying that
there's NO opinion that a personal kiddush is a hiddur?
> > There is a song in any zemirot book that contains the verse:
> > "[Shabbat is hallowed and beloved;] therefore let every man bless
> > on his own wine." I don't know about this particular zemer, but
> > AFAIK most if not all of them are way older than Chasidism.
> >
> > (In my house I always inquire of guests as to whether they intend
> > to listen in or make their own kiddush, so as to know whom to have
> > in mind.
>
> I used to do it that way. It can cause problems if you made a wrong
> assumption. Nowadays my intent is to keep in mind "_anyone_ who wants
> me to keep hir in mind".
I do assume it your way, but even so, I prefer to be certain.
> > And since the mitzvah of evening kiddush is gender-neutral, I
> > always offer the option to any ladies that are present.)
>
> Hm. That I never saw.
No surprise here.
> Do any of them take you up on it?
Once. Sadly, we've bred initiative out of most of our women.
This past Shabbat the following event occurred: there was a Shabbaton in our
community for about 20 high-school girls from out of town. These were all O
schools. We had 4 of them for lunch, so the situation was that I was the only
man in the company of my wife and 5 girls (these 4 plus my sister-in-law). We
had a lively discussion of meshichism and such... by the end of the meal one
of them remembered a psak that said that women eating together should make a
mezumen. They debated it while I looked in the Shulchan Aruch for anything
that says so or otherwise. I didn't find anything but a big discussion on
whether women are obligated to bentch at all (zman gromah but maybe not
really, a Torah law is judged stringently, etc.). They decided they should do
it. I got up and left so as to remove any lingering doubts.
Guess what? They didn't do it. All this talk about how they really should,
and are entitled to, and there's a psak that says so, and in the end they
chickened out and bentched by themselves -- because their mindset is that
this is what men do and they observe.
It's a sad situation. How can a Devorah arise in such an environment?
(I think I have an appropriate sig for this message, too.)
Yisroel Markov Member DNRC
Boston, Clinton Protectorate of Massachusetts
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"We are the one species that can formulate a vision of what values are
worth pursuing -- and then pursue the opposite." -- Nathaniel Branden
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Yisroel Markov <y...@my-deja.com> writes:
>> > tryin...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> >> I have been in chasidic households where every adult male is
>> >> expected to make their own kiddush. Anyone know where that
>> >> started?
>> >
>> > AFAIK it's simply doing the mitzvah b'hiddur.
>>
>> There is a difference of opinion whether the hiddur of "mitzva bo
>> yoser mibishlucha" - it is a greater mitzva to perform the act
>> oneself, rather than rely on an agent - is better. Some, notably
>> Litvaks prefer the hidur of "Berov am hadras melech" - in a multitude
>> is the glory of the king.
>
> Which is fine by me, as you've probably guessed. Or are you saying that
> there's NO opinion that a personal kiddush is a hiddur?
I thought I was clear. The first hiddur I described, "mitzva bo
yoser mibishlucho" means that a personal kiddush is a hiddur.
snip
>> > And since the mitzvah of evening kiddush is gender-neutral, I
>> > always offer the option to any ladies that are present.)
>>
>> Hm. That I never saw.
>
> No surprise here.
>
>> Do any of them take you up on it?
>
> Once. Sadly, we've bred initiative out of most of our women.
>
> This past Shabbat the following event occurred: there was a Shabbaton in our
> community for about 20 high-school girls from out of town. These were all O
> schools. We had 4 of them for lunch, so the situation was that I was the only
> man in the company of my wife and 5 girls (these 4 plus my sister-in-law). We
> had a lively discussion of meshichism and such... by the end of the meal one
> of them remembered a psak that said that women eating together should make a
> mezumen. They debated it while I looked in the Shulchan Aruch for anything
> that says so or otherwise. I didn't find anything but a big discussion on
> whether women are obligated to bentch at all (zman gromah but maybe not
> really, a Torah law is judged stringently, etc.).
I thought the safek was because women didn't inherit the Land.
> They decided they should do it. I got up and left so as to remove
> any lingering doubts.
>
> Guess what? They didn't do it. All this talk about how they really should,
> and are entitled to, and there's a psak that says so, and in the end they
> chickened out and bentched by themselves -- because their mindset is that
> this is what men do and they observe.
_Very_ interesting. On the same topic, do you know of women who wash
mayim acharonim? If not, why not?
> It's a sad situation. How can a Devorah arise in such an environment?
Why do you think we _need_ a Dvorah?
> (I think I have an appropriate sig for this message, too.)
> "We are the one species that can formulate a vision of what values are
> worth pursuing -- and then pursue the opposite." -- Nathaniel Branden
I wouldn't say that the women are "pursuing" the opposite.
Yisroel Markov
[snip]
> > Which is fine by me, as you've probably guessed. Or are you saying that
> > there's NO opinion that a personal kiddush is a hiddur?
>
> I thought I was clear. The first hiddur I described, "mitzva bo
> yoser mibishlucho" means that a personal kiddush is a hiddur.
You were clear. Sorry I wasn't paying enough attention.
> snip
>
> >> > And since the mitzvah of evening kiddush is gender-neutral, I
> >> > always offer the option to any ladies that are present.)
> >>
> >> Hm. That I never saw.
> >
> > No surprise here.
> >
> >> Do any of them take you up on it?
> >
> > Once. Sadly, we've bred initiative out of most of our women.
> >
> > This past Shabbat the following event occurred: there was a Shabbaton in our
> > community for about 20 high-school girls from out of town. These were all O
> > schools. We had 4 of them for lunch, so the situation was that I was the only
> > man in the company of my wife and 5 girls (these 4 plus my sister-in-law). We
> > had a lively discussion of meshichism and such... by the end of the meal one
> > of them remembered a psak that said that women eating together should make a
> > mezumen. They debated it while I looked in the Shulchan Aruch for anything
> > that says so or otherwise. I didn't find anything but a big discussion on
> > whether women are obligated to bentch at all (zman gromah but maybe not
> > really, a Torah law is judged stringently, etc.).
>
> I thought the safek was because women didn't inherit the Land.
SA mentions that. The counter to that was the fact that the leviim didn't
either.
> > They decided they should do it. I got up and left so as to remove
> > any lingering doubts.
> >
> > Guess what? They didn't do it. All this talk about how they really should,
> > and are entitled to, and there's a psak that says so, and in the end they
> > chickened out and bentched by themselves -- because their mindset is that
> > this is what men do and they observe.
>
> _Very_ interesting. On the same topic, do you know of women who wash
> mayim acharonim? If not, why not?
No. I've always thought that it is the acknowledgment of the less
self-centered nature of women. Why is it the same topic?
> > It's a sad situation. How can a Devorah arise in such an environment?
>
> Why do you think we _need_ a Dvorah?
We need good leaders. To exclude half of the population is to short-change
ourselves. Listen, the Jews needed Devorah, right? Otherwise, why did she
become a shofet and achieve her victory? Now transport the people and the
community you know back to that era and ask yourself: how would they've
reacted to a woman becoming a leader? I daresay a lot of them would've been
horrified, and *that* is the attitude that I find so harmful.
Women and men process information and make decisions differently. We keep
saying that they are complementary -- two parts of a whole. Well, IMHO
governance requires a holistic approach, dealing as it does with people of
both sexes and a complex world. (It's why I always vote for a woman when I
know nothing else about the candidates.)
> > (I think I have an appropriate sig for this message, too.)
>
> > "We are the one species that can formulate a vision of what values are
> > worth pursuing -- and then pursue the opposite." -- Nathaniel Branden
>
> I wouldn't say that the women are "pursuing" the opposite.
They aren't. But O men who extoll female virtues, point to Devorah, Miriam,
and all the laudatory statements of the Sages, and then stifle opportunities
for women, IMHO are. Why do *you* think these girls didn't make a mezuman
despite all the talk? I say they're conditioned that way - to use an
admittedly strong word, a sort of a slavery of the mind.
Yisroel Markov Member DNRC
Boston, Clinton Protectorate of Massachusetts
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The daughters of Israel are becoming; it is poverty which makes them
unattractive." -- Talmud Bavli, Nedarim 66b
Simcha Streltsov
: governance requires a holistic approach, dealing as it does with people of
: both sexes and a complex world. (It's why I always vote for a woman when I
: know nothing else about the candidates.)
we may have different models of government. in current US, esp. on local
level, with sound market economy, you don't need much of a government,
thus you (and I) vote for the person who is less likely to harm the
situation. OTOH, when serious action is needed - during the war,
economic crisis - that would include international/federal governments,
you need another type of a person.
it seems that the judges (shoftim) were of the 2nd type - as they
were _not_ needed during normal times and were called upon only
during crises (see Shmuel's being upset when Jews asked for
permanent federal government!!).
: for women, IMHO are. Why do *you* think these girls didn't make a mezuman
: despite all the talk? I say they're conditioned that way - to use an
: admittedly strong word, a sort of a slavery of the mind.
maybe their teachers are trying to shield them from the other extreme
that I also saw - in a room with 3 men & 3 women, ladies went to the other
table to make their own mezuman (that was in Cambridge MA, of course).
it does not excuse it, of course.
--
Simcha Streltsov disclaimer, as requested by Mo-he S-rr
simc...@juno.com all punctuation marks in this article
http://cad.bu.edu/go/simon are equivalent to (-:
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Yisroel Markov <y...@my-deja.com> writes:
>
> [snip]
>
>> > Which is fine by me, as you've probably guessed. Or are you saying that
>> > there's NO opinion that a personal kiddush is a hiddur?
>>
>> I thought I was clear. The first hiddur I described, "mitzva bo
>> yoser mibishlucho" means that a personal kiddush is a hiddur.
>
> You were clear. Sorry I wasn't paying enough attention.
Accepted.
>> snip
>> > Once. Sadly, we've bred initiative out of most of our women.
>> >
>> > This past Shabbat the following event occurred: there was a Shabbaton in our
>> > community for about 20 high-school girls from out of town. These were all O
>> > schools. We had 4 of them for lunch, so the situation was that I was the only
>> > man in the company of my wife and 5 girls (these 4 plus my sister-in-law). We
>> > had a lively discussion of meshichism and such... by the end of the meal one
>> > of them remembered a psak that said that women eating together should make a
>> > mezumen. They debated it while I looked in the Shulchan Aruch for anything
>> > that says so or otherwise. I didn't find anything but a big discussion on
>> > whether women are obligated to bentch at all (zman gromah but maybe not
>> > really, a Torah law is judged stringently, etc.).
>>
>> I thought the safek was because women didn't inherit the Land.
>
> SA mentions that. The counter to that was the fact that the
> leviim didn't either.
I thought they inherited the cities of refuge (6+48).
>> > They decided they should do it. I got up and left so as to remove
>> > any lingering doubts.
>> >
>> > Guess what? They didn't do it. All this talk about how they really should,
>> > and are entitled to, and there's a psak that says so, and in the end they
>> > chickened out and bentched by themselves -- because their mindset is that
>> > this is what men do and they observe.
>>
>> _Very_ interesting. On the same topic, do you know of women who wash
>> mayim acharonim? If not, why not?
>
> No. I've always thought that it is the acknowledgment of the less
> self-centered nature of women.
I don't follow.
> Why is it the same topic?
It's another example of women who apparently _should_ observe some
mitzvah (like mezuman) but don't.
>> > It's a sad situation. How can a Devorah arise in such an environment?
>>
>> Why do you think we _need_ a Dvorah?
>
> We need good leaders. To exclude half of the population is to
> short-change ourselves. Listen, the Jews needed Devorah, right?
> Otherwise, why did she become a shofet and achieve her victory?
Agreed.
> Now transport the people and the community you know back to that
> era and ask yourself: how would they've reacted to a woman becoming
> a leader? I daresay a lot of them would've been horrified, and
> *that* is the attitude that I find so harmful.
Very good point.
> Women and men process information and make decisions differently. We keep
> saying that they are complementary -- two parts of a whole. Well, IMHO
> governance requires a holistic approach, dealing as it does with people of
> both sexes and a complex world. (It's why I always vote for a woman when I
> know nothing else about the candidates.)
Hmm.
>> > (I think I have an appropriate sig for this message, too.)
>>
>> > "We are the one species that can formulate a vision of what values are
>> > worth pursuing -- and then pursue the opposite." -- Nathaniel Branden
>>
>> I wouldn't say that the women are "pursuing" the opposite.
>
> They aren't. But O men who extoll female virtues, point to Devorah, Miriam,
> and all the laudatory statements of the Sages, and then stifle opportunities
> for women, IMHO are. Why do *you* think these girls didn't make a mezuman
> despite all the talk? I say they're conditioned that way - to use an
> admittedly strong word, a sort of a slavery of the mind.
Or maybe a "Let's keep track of the _real_ important stuff". When
did the baby eat last?
Sorry I'm so late. I just saw this now.
Yisroel Markov
[snip]
> >> I thought the safek was because women didn't inherit the Land.
> >
> > SA mentions that. The counter to that was the fact that the
> > leviim didn't either.
>
> I thought they inherited the cities of refuge (6+48).
Leviim include kohanim. These didn't inherit any real estate.
[snip]
> >> _Very_ interesting. On the same topic, do you know of women who
> >> wash mayim acharonim? If not, why not?
> >
> > No. I've always thought that it is the acknowledgment of the less
> > self-centered nature of women.
>
> I don't follow.
I mean that I've asked why women don't wash mayim achronim. The answer I got
was that "the salt of Sodom" that we're "washing off" represents
self-centeredness, and women are not as susceptible to that as men.
> > Why is it the same topic?
>
> It's another example of women who apparently _should_ observe some
> mitzvah (like mezuman) but don't.
So you're saying that women should do it? Interesting; I'll try to remember
and ask my rav at the shiur tonight. If so, I'll try to institute it in my
home.
[snip]
> >> > (I think I have an appropriate sig for this message, too.)
> >>
> >> > "We are the one species that can formulate a vision of what values are
> >> > worth pursuing -- and then pursue the opposite." -- Nathaniel Branden
> >>
> >> I wouldn't say that the women are "pursuing" the opposite.
> >
> > They aren't. But O men who extoll female virtues, point to Devorah, Miriam,
> > and all the laudatory statements of the Sages, and then stifle opportunities
> > for women, IMHO are. Why do *you* think these girls didn't make a mezuman
> > despite all the talk? I say they're conditioned that way - to use an
> > admittedly strong word, a sort of a slavery of the mind.
>
> Or maybe a "Let's keep track of the _real_ important stuff". When
> did the baby eat last?
Maybe, but these girls don't have these concerns yet. (Heck, I know how
difficult it is sometimes for my wife to even find a moment to bentch.)
Besides, you should've seen them: when they arrived at the conclusion that
they should do it, they started fidgeting, and looked really uncomfortable.
Now why should anyone be uncomfortable performing a mitzvah one is entitled
to perform?
Yisroel Markov Member DNRC
Boston, Clinton Protectorate of Massachusetts
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"It may indeed prove to be far the most difficult and not the least
important task for human reason rationally to comprehend its own
limitations." -- Friedrich von Hayek
mos...@mm.huji.ac.il
> mos...@mm.huji.ac.il wrote:
>> Yisroel Markov <y...@my-deja.com> writes:
>
> [snip]
>
>> > there's NO opinion that a personal kiddush is a hiddur?
>>
>> I thought I was clear. The first hiddur I described, "mitzva bo
>> yoser mibishlucho" means that a personal kiddush is a hiddur.
>
> You were clear. Sorry I wasn't paying enough attention.
Accepted.
>> snip
>> > Once. Sadly, we've bred initiative out of most of our women.
>> >
>> > This past Shabbat the following event occurred: there was a Shabbaton in our
>> > community for about 20 high-school girls from out of town. These were all O
>> > schools. We had 4 of them for lunch, so the situation was that I was the only
>> > man in the company of my wife and 5 girls (these 4 plus my sister-in-law). We
>> > had a lively discussion of meshichism and such... by the end of the meal one
>> > of them remembered a psak that said that women eating together should make a
>> > mezumen. They debated it while I looked in the Shulchan Aruch for anything
>> > that says so or otherwise. I didn't find anything but a big discussion on
>> > whether women are obligated to bentch at all (zman gromah but maybe not
>> > really, a Torah law is judged stringently, etc.).
>>
>> I thought the safek was because women didn't inherit the Land.
>
> SA mentions that. The counter to that was the fact that the
> leviim didn't either.
I thought they inherited the cities of refuge (6+48).
>> > They decided they should do it. I got up and left so as to remove
>> > any lingering doubts.
>> >
>> > Guess what? They didn't do it. All this talk about how they really should,
>> > and are entitled to, and there's a psak that says so, and in the end they
>> > chickened out and bentched by themselves -- because their mindset is that
>> > this is what men do and they observe.
>>
>> _Very_ interesting. On the same topic, do you know of women who wash
>> mayim acharonim? If not, why not?
>
> No. I've always thought that it is the acknowledgment of the less
> self-centered nature of women.
I don't follow.
> Why is it the same topic?
It's another example of women who apparently _should_ observe some
mitzvah (like mezuman) but don't.
>> > It's a sad situation. How can a Devorah arise in such an environment?
>>
>> Why do you think we _need_ a Dvorah?
>
> We need good leaders. To exclude half of the population is to
> short-change ourselves. Listen, the Jews needed Devorah, right?
> Otherwise, why did she become a shofet and achieve her victory?
Agreed.
> Now transport the people and the community you know back to that
> era and ask yourself: how would they've reacted to a woman becoming
> a leader? I daresay a lot of them would've been horrified, and
> *that* is the attitude that I find so harmful.
Very good point.
> Women and men process information and make decisions differently. We keep
> saying that they are complementary -- two parts of a whole. Well, IMHO
> governance requires a holistic approach, dealing as it does with people of
> both sexes and a complex world. (It's why I always vote for a woman when I
> know nothing else about the candidates.)
Hmm.
>> > (I think I have an appropriate sig for this message, too.)
>>
>> > "We are the one species that can formulate a vision of what values are
>> > worth pursuing -- and then pursue the opposite." -- Nathaniel Branden
>>
>> I wouldn't say that the women are "pursuing" the opposite.
>
> They aren't. But O men who extoll female virtues, point to Devorah, Miriam,
> and all the laudatory statements of the Sages, and then stifle opportunities
> for women, IMHO are. Why do *you* think these girls didn't make a mezuman
> despite all the talk? I say they're conditioned that way - to use an
> admittedly strong word, a sort of a slavery of the mind.
Or maybe a "Let's keep track of the _real_ important stuff". When
did the baby eat last?
Sorry I'm so late. I just saw this now.