LIVING WITH MOSHIACH, Parshat Vayigash, 5757
Yosef Shagalov
B"H
LIVING WITH MOSHIACH
Weekly Digest About Moshiach
PARSHAT VAYIGASH
Tevet 10, 5757 Dec. 20, 1996
*
Published Weekly By
Lubavitch Shluchim Conferences On The Moshiach Campaign,
Committee For The Blind
* * *
5757
*********************************************
* TO RECEIVE THIS PUBLICATION VIA INTERNET: *
* E-Mail: y...@dorsai.org *
* FOR CHABAD-LUBAVITCH IN CYBERSPACE: *
* E-Mail: in...@chabad.org *
*********************************************
THIS PUBLICATION IS DEDICATED TO THE REBBE,
RABBI MENACHEM M. SCHNEERSON
OF LUBAVITCH
"I BELIEVE WITH COMPLETE FAITH IN THE ARRIVAL OF THE MOSHIACH.
AND THOUGH HE MAY TARRY, I SHALL WAIT EACH DAY, ANTICIPATING
HIS ARRIVAL." Maimonides, Principles of the Faith, No. 12
*********************
* TABLE OF CONTENTS *
*********************
Introduction
The Weekly Torah Portion
The Rebbe's Prophecy
The Tenth of Tevet
In View of the Situation in Israel
The Weekly Shabbat Calendar
Laws Of Shabbat Candle Lighting For The Blind
Shabbat Candle Lighting Blessing
Moshiach Information Center
Moshiach In The Air, Weekly Radio Program
Jewish Children:
Get Your Own Letter In A Sefer Torah!
Subscription Information For This Weekly Magazine:
Living With Moshiach
****************
* INTRODUCTION *
****************
We are pleased to present, to the visually impaired and the
blind, our weekly publication, Living With Moshiach.
*
In this week's issue, we focus on the fast day of the Tenth of
Tevet.
*
Our sincere appreciation to L'Chaim weekly publication,
published by the Lubavitch Youth Organization, for allowing us
to use their material.
Also, many thanks to our copy editor, Reb Mordechai Staiman,
for his tireless efforts.
*
It is our fervent hope that our learning about Moshiach and
the Redemption will hasten the coming of Moshiach, NOW!
Rabbi Yosef Y. Shagalov
Administrator
Committee for the Blind
E-Mail: y...@dorsai.org
Rosh Chodesh Tevet, 5757
Brooklyn, New York
***************************************
* THE WEEKLY TORAH PORTION *
* Adapted from the Works of the Rebbe *
***************************************
Parshat Vayigash
This week's Torah portion, Vayigash, contains the verse, "And
[Jacob] sent Judah...before him to Goshen--l'horot--to make
preparations." According to the foremost commentaries, Judah was
sent to establish a yeshivah. (L'horot is from the same root as
hora'a, which means "instruction.")
When G-d told Jacob to go to Egypt, Jacob first ensured the
presence of yeshivot. G-d promised Jacob He would be with him in
the Egyptian exile. Yet, only once the yeshivot were established
did Jacob bring his family with him to Egypt, for Jewish education
is the foundation and mainstay of Judaism.
In all times and places where Jews lived, even in the terribly
harsh exile of Egypt, there were centers where Torah was studied,
for Torah study is the life of the Jewish people.
The Egyptian exile was the most severe of all exiles, including
the present one, for several reasons. However, regardless of all
the difficulties, Jews were never without yeshivot.
The Torah is not a history text-book. Every subject and episode,
every letter of the Torah, offers direction for all times and
places.
Some people claim that this is not the time to be sending
children to Jewish day schools; today, afternoon Hebrew schools or
Sunday schools are sufficient.
The Egyptian exile and this week's Torah portion thus instruct
us: Conditions in Egypt were far more difficult than those at
present, but were disregarded and Torah was studied. They
disregarded not only the severe physical conditions of the exile,
they also dismissed the fact that, because the Torah had not
yet been given collectively to all the Jewish people on Mount
Sinai, they were not capable of reaching the tremendous heights to
which we can aspire today.
All of the above applies, too, to the question of support for
Jewish education. There are those who claim that financial
conditions are worse than ever. When conditions improve, they will
support Jewish education and maybe even have the self-sacrifice to
send their own children to a yeshivah.
We must all remember, in Egypt the exile was far worse. There,
our ancestors did not have even stubble for bricks and had to
wander through a foreign land to search for it while Pharaoh's
taskmasters stood over them, lashing out with their whips. They had
no straw, but they had a proper Jewish education!
************************
* THE REBBE'S PROPHECY *
************************
The Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson of Lubavitch, issued
a call that "THE TIME OF OUR REDEMPTION HAS ARRIVED!" and
"MOSHIACH IS ON HIS WAY!"
The Rebbe stressed that he is saying this AS A PROPHECY, and
asks us all to prepare ourselves for the Redemption, through
increasing acts of goodness and kindness.
LET US ALL HEED THE REBBE'S CALL.
*********************************************
* IN LOVING MEMORY OF MY DEAR GRANDPARENTS, *
* *
* Reb Shmuel Pesach Ben Reb Yaakov Dovid *
* Passed away on 3 Tishrei, 5755 *
* *
* Mrs. Fraidel Chedvah Bas Reb Zev Wolf *
* Passed away on 4 Adar II, 5755 *
* Pais *
*********************************************
**********************
* THE TENTH OF TEVET *
**********************
Friday, Dec. 20, is the fast day of the Tenth of Tevet. This
fast day is unique in that it is the only fast day in the Jewish
calendar that can occur and therefore be observed even when it
falls on a Friday.
We neither eat nor drink, from approximately 72 minutes before
sunrise until 40 minutes after sunset. [1]
*
This fast day commemorates the beginning of the siege of
Jerusalem by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, which ultimately
resulted in the destruction of the First Holy Temple.
The strength--both of the obligation to fast and its positive
influences--of the Tenth of Tevet stems from the fact that it
commemorates the first of the tragedies associated with the
destruction of the Beis HaMikdash.
Thus, this date begins the process of destruction. It is well
known that the beginning of any process contains more power than
the subsequent stages and for this reason, there is added power to
the Tenth of Tevet. The positive influences of the Tenth of Tevet
are connected to the fact that a fast day is a "day of will" when
our prayers and teshuvah are more willingly accepted by G-d.
As we are taught that "the beginning is wedged in the end," and
the ultimate "end" purpose of the destruction of the Holy Temples
will be the rebuilding of the Third and Eternal Holy Temple, the
Tenth of Tevet is an auspicious day to hasten the coming of the
Redemption.
Of course, our most fervent prayer is that the Tenth of Tevet
not be a day of mourning, but be turned into a day of celebration
and joy with the coming of Moshiach. Thus, by our immediate
decision to increase our acts of goodness and kindness, our
performance of mitzvot, study of Torah, and specifically the giving
of charity, which brings the Redemption closer, we are showing G-d
that our actions are in consonance with our heartfelt prayers. May
the realization of those prayers happen in the immediate future.
_______________
1. In New York City, at 5:11 p.m.
**************************************
* IN VIEW OF THE SITUATION IN ISRAEL *
* Adapted from a Letter of the Rebbe *
**************************************
5 Tevet, 5736/1976
In reply to your inquiry and request for instructions in
connection with the forthcoming Fast of the Tenth of Tevet, in view
of the situation in and around Israel--
You will surely be instructed by the rabbi of your congregation.
However, since you have also approached me in this matter, I will
set forth at least several suggestions--after the following
introductory remarks:
Regrettably, there are people who claim that it is necessary to
think and act "big," in terms of global dimensions and stupendous
undertakings, etc. Surely they mean well; and to the extent that
such resolutions are practical and are actually carried out--they
are very helpful in improving the situation.
Yet, we must never overlook--indeed, rather greatly emphasize--
the so-called "small and unsophisticated" things that each modest
congregation, moreover each individual, can and must do--beginning
with the old, yet ever-anew, Jewish way, collectively as one people
and also as individuals. This is the action of "the voice is the
voice of Jacob"--Torah and prayer--which G-d Himself has shown
us to be the first effective action to nullify the power of "the
hands of Esau"--in whatever shape or form they are raised against
us.
Certainly this should find the fullest expression in a day that
the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) declares to be a day of
fasting, one to which the prophet Isaiah refers to as a "chosen
fast...a fast and time favored by G-d."
Now, in answer to your inquiry, and since the Fast of the Tenth
of Tevet is specially connected with the Holy Land and the Holy
City of Jerusalem (recalling the siege of Jerusalem), my
suggestion--in addition to the regular "observances" on fast days,
as set forth at length and in detail in Poskim [halachic
adjudicators] and in books of Mussar and Chassidus--is as follows:
During this day--expressly for the sake of the security and
strengthening of the Holy Land, materially and spiritually, and for
the material and spiritual benefit of all Jews wherever they are--
in the Holy Land as well as in the Diaspora--and particularly for
the benefit of our brethren behind the "Iron Curtain"[2]--a special
effort should be made in the areas of Torah, prayer, and tzedakah
(charity).
Especially after prayer (both in the morning and at the
afternoon service) one should learn (and where there already are
daily study groups, to add) a subject in Torah, including final
ruling of Jewish law. Immediately following the prayers, even
before learning, one should say several chapters of Psalms (in
addition to the regular portion).
Before and after praying--one should give tzedakah (in addition
to the regular donation), including tzedakah for a sacred cause or
institution in the Holy Land, the "Land of Living."
Needless to say, one who repeats the above again and again in
the course of the day is to be praised.
And the more one does it (in quantity and quality), the more
praiseworthy it is.
And, as in all matters of holiness, it is desirable that all the
above be done b'tzibbur (with at least a minyan).
May G-d accept, and He will accept, the prayers and
supplications of Jews wherever they are.
And soon, in our very own days, may the Promise be fulfilled
that "These days will be transformed into days of rejoicing and
gladness," with the true and complete Redemption through our
righteous Moshiach.
_______________
2. This letter is dated 5 Tevet, 5736/1976. Ed.
********************************
* In loving memory of *
* RABBI ELYE GROSS, *
* our Developmental Consultant *
********************************
*******************************
* THE WEEKLY SHABBAT CALENDAR *
*******************************
>>>> Times Shown Are for Metro NY - NJ <<<<
** JEWISH WOMEN AND GIRLS LIGHT SHABBAT CANDLES **
* For local candle lighting times,
consult your local Rabbi, Chabad-Lubavitch
Center, or call: (718) 774-3000.
* For a free candle lighting kit,
contact your local Chabad-Lubavitch Center.
* For a listing of the Centers in your area,
call: 1-800-Lubavitch (1-800-582-2848).
FRIDAY, DEC. 20, EREV SHABBAT PARSHAT VAYIGASH:
* Light Shabbat Candles, [3] by 4:13 p.m.
* The fast of Tevet 10 ends at 5:11 p.m.
SATURDAY, DEC. 21, SHABBAT PARSHAT VAYIGASH:
* Shabbat ends at NIGHTFALL, at 5:19 p.m.
_______________
3. The candles must be lit 18 minutes *BEFORE* sunset.
IT IS PROHIBITED AND IS A DESECRATION OF THE SHABBAT
TO LIGHT THE CANDLES *AFTER* SUNSET.
***********************************
* LAWS OF SHABBAT CANDLE LIGHTING *
* FOR THE BLIND *
***********************************
Edited by Rabbi Y. K. Marlow*
* A blind woman who lives alone should light her Shabbat
candle(s) with a blessing.
* If she is married to a non-visually impaired person, HER
HUSBAND SHOULD LIGHT THE SHABBAT CANDLES WITH THE BLESSING.
* If she is eating and lighting in the company of others who
are non-visually impaired, and they lit the Shabbat candles,
she should light her own Shabbat candle(s), BUT WITHOUT THE
BLESSING.
* (If at all possible, she should not be the last one to light
the Shabbat candle(s), so that she could be absolved by the
latter's blessing.)
_______________
*. Head of Bet-Din (Rabbinical Court) of Crown Heights.
************************************
* SHABBAT CANDLE LIGHTING BLESSING *
************************************
* First light the candles. Then spread your hands out around the
candles, drawing your hands inward in a circular motion three times
to indicate the acceptance of the sanctity of Shabbat. You then
cover your eyes and recite the following blessing:
BO-RUCH A-TOH ADO-NOI E-LO-HEI-NU ME-LECH HO-OLOM
A-SHER KI-DE-SHO-NU BE-MITZ-VO-SOV VE-TZI-VO-NU
LE-HAD-LIK NER SHEL SHA-BOS KO-DESH.
Translation:
Blessed are you, L-rd our G-d, King of the universe,
who has sanctified us with His commandments, and
commanded us to kindle the light of the holy Shabbat.
* Uncover your eyes and behold the Shabbat lights.
* The time of lighting is considered especially propitious for
praying to G-d for health and happiness. The prayer is readily
acceptable because it is offered during the performance of this
great mitzvah of lighting Shabbat candles.
CAUTION:
The candles must be lit 18 minutes *BEFORE* sunset. IT IS
PROHIBITED AND IS A DESECRATION OF THE SHABBAT TO LIGHT THE
CANDLES *AFTER* SUNSET.
*******************************
* MOSHIACH INFORMATION CENTER *
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A detailed learning experience about Moshiach is now available
Use your Touch-Tone phone to call: (718) 953-6168
*
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Questions can be left and calls are promptly returned.
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*----------------------------------------*
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*****************************************
* JEWISH CHILDREN: *
* Get your own letter in a Sefer Torah! *
*****************************************
Dear Children,
As you surely know, the holiest and most precious gift G-d gave
the Jewish nation is the Torah, and for thousands of years we have
constantly studied and lived by its laws. In fact, the Torah you
see today is written exactly the same way the Torah was written
the very first time by Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses).
Of course it is no easy task to write a Torah. It must be
written by an expert, G-d fearing scribe, on parchment with a
quill and ink. It takes months until it is finished, as each and
every letter must be made perfectly.
Well, there is a very special Torah being written right now! By
instruction of the Rebbe, a special Torah is being written by an
expert scribe in the holy city of Jerusalem, especially for boys
(under the age of 13) and girls (under the age of 12).
Unite with children all over the world who are taking part in
this special Sefer Torah. This will bring blessings for you and
for the whole Jewish people.
Have the scribe write a letter in the Torah just for you!
You will receive a beautiful, personalized certificate from
Israel, the Holy Land, telling you in which portion of the Torah
"your" letter has been written.
All you have to do is fill out the Registration form by
yourself (if possible) and together with one U.S. dollar (or
the equivalent in other currencies) send it directly to Israel.
IMPORTANT INFORMATION
* 1) Only one letter may be bought per child.
* 2) Use your own personal money for the one dollar (or its
equivalent). If you cannot pay the full amount now you may pay it
in installments.
* 3) Parents may buy letters for very young children, even for
newborn babies.
* 4) In certain cases one may buy a letter for a child who cannot
buy one on his own (for example: a relative living in a distant
country).
For more names (brothers, sisters, etc.) you can fill out this
information on a regular piece of paper and include it in the
mailing.
*************************************************
* REGISTRATION FORM FOR CHILDREN'S SEFER TORAH: *
*************************************************
Family Name:_____________________________________________
First & Middle Jewish Name:______________________________
Mother's Jewish Name:____________________________________
C/O (If applicable):_____________________________________
Address:_________________________________________________
City:___________________ State:______________ Zip:_______
Age: ________ Tel.: _(____)_______________ $1 Enclosed.
Fill out the above form and mail it to:
Children's Sefer Torah,
POB 8, Kfar Chabad, 72915 Israel.
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* LIVING WITH MOSHIACH *
* Weekly Digest About Moshiach *
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= End of Text: Living With Moshiach, Parshat Vayigash, 5757 =
=============================================================
Gideon Ehrlich
Yosef Shagalov (y...@dorsai.org) wrote:
: B"H
: LIVING WITH MOSHIACH
: Weekly Digest About Moshiach
: PARSHAT VAYIGASH
: Tevet 10, 5757 Dec. 20, 1996
: *
: Published Weekly By
: Lubavitch Shluchim Conferences On The Moshiach Campaign,
: Committee For The Blind
: * * *
Enough is enough !!!
Rabbi Menachem Mendle died . He is dead. He was not Moshiach.
He was not even on any reasonablr list of 100 persons to be candidant
for that task !
No non-Habadnik Rav accepted him as Moshiach.
So , he failed the very basic test , of being accpted as a leader
out of his close hasidic group.
All that moshiach campaign was descovered to be false.
The commity for the blind should treat those who are still blind
to realize the obviouse : Rabbi Menachem mandel was not Moshich.
Shalom g.e.
Zev Sero
ehr...@sunlight.cs.biu.ac.il (Gideon Ehrlich) wrote:
> Enough is enough !!!
>Rabbi Menachem Mendle died . He is dead. He was not Moshiach.
True.
>He was not even on any reasonablr list of 100 persons to be candidant
>for that task !
>No non-Habadnik Rav accepted him as Moshiach.
False. Just one example: Rabbi Aharon Soleveichik has publicly stated
that before the Lubavitcher Rebbe's death he had considered the Rebbe
to be probably mashiach. I've never heard R Soloveichik described as
a Chabadnik.
Also, contra Josh Backon, R Soloveichik has stated that the belief
that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is still mashiach after his death is *not*
heretical, and those who hold such a belief do not deserve shunning.
--
Zev Sero Don't blame me, I voted for Harry Browne
zs...@mail.idt.net
zs...@technimetrics.com
Zev Sero
jg = da...@laraby.tiac.net (James Garner), the reformer
zs = Zev Sero (zs...@mail.idt.net)
zs> Also, contra Josh Backon, R Soloveichik has stated that the
zs> belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is still mashiach after
zs> his death is *not* heretical, and those who hold such a
zs> belief do not deserve shunning.
jg> How about the ones who have little statues of Menachem in
jg> their homes?
You have a vivid imagination, reformer. When are you going
to answer Warren's challenge to find one O Rabbi who forbids
fundraising on Yom Kippur? Or when are you going to admit
that you place your own feelings and gut-opinions (boich
svores) above the Talmud, Shulchan Aruch, and a Minhag
Yisrael which is centuries - if not millennia - old, and
are therefore in no position to criticise the R movement.
mos...@vms.huji.ac.il
da...@laraby.tiac.net (James Garner) writes:
> Zev Sero (zs...@mail.idt.net) wrote:
> :
> : Also, contra Josh Backon, R Soloveichik has stated that the belief
> : that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is still mashiach after his death is *not*
> : heretical, and those who hold such a belief do not deserve shunning.
>
> How about the ones who have little statues of Menachem in their
> homes?
>
Congratulations James, you did it!!! All through the fundraising on YK
thread, when posted your _own_ opinions and refused to accept halacha,
I let you get away with it, to some extent.
But now you've hit rock bottom.
Goodbbye and _not_ goodluck. The only time I'll see your posts is
when someone bothers answering one. (That will also cut down my
backlog. You are one prolific poster.)
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
(posted & mailed)
Zev Sero
da...@laraby.tiac.net (James Garner) wrote:
> How about the ones who have little statues of Menachem in their
> homes?
And later:
> But I've seen them.
> I'll bet you have too.
What planet do you live on, reformer?
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il
In article <5ajntp$8...@panix2.panix.com>, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
> In <32cca485...@news.idt.net> zs...@mail.idt.net (Zev Sero) writes:
>>da...@laraby.tiac.net (James Garner) wrote:
>>> How about the ones who have little statues of Menachem in their
>>> homes?
>
>>And later:
>>> But I've seen them.
>>> I'll bet you have too.
>
>>What planet do you live on, reformer?
>
> a "Chabad Magazine", which had an ad in it for a medallion with a
> full-face raised picture of the Rebbe. I was a bit suspicious about
> this w.r.t avodah zarah, so I showed it to the ex-Lubavitcher at
> work who had gone to yeshiva w/Rabbi Hecht (Zev knows which Hecht),
> who told me that it is indeed a pesel (idolatrous statue/image).
So what else is new ? :-)
Check the Rambam Hilchot Avodat Kochavim 3:10-11 where it's a definite
prohibition to make a 3-D image of a person.
Josh
>
> Jonathan Baker
> jjb...@panix.com
Joe Slater
>>>da...@laraby.tiac.net (James Garner) wrote:
>>>> How about the ones who have little statues of Menachem in their
>>>> homes?
>In article <5ajntp$8...@panix2.panix.com>, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
>> Shortly after the Rebbe's petirah, I picked up a copy of
>> a "Chabad Magazine", which had an ad in it for a medallion with a
>> full-face raised picture of the Rebbe. I was a bit suspicious about
>> this w.r.t avodah zarah, so I showed it to the ex-Lubavitcher at
>> work who had gone to yeshiva w/Rabbi Hecht (Zev knows which Hecht),
>> who told me that it is indeed a pesel (idolatrous statue/image).
bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>Check the Rambam Hilchot Avodat Kochavim 3:10-11 where it's a definite
>prohibition to make a 3-D image of a person.
You three are hysterical; the obsession of each of you is feeding on that
of the others. Even if the alleged (*) medallion were to be forbidden, it
was made by some third party and not Chabad. Even if it were to be
forbidden the most you could say is that the supposed (*) magazine should
not have accepted the advertisement. And even then, it's hardly the little
idolatrous statue that James Garner is rabbitting on about.
Oh yes - and I hardly think Jonathan Baker's supposed (*) meeting with an
unidentified (*) Rabbi where he showed him a speculative (*) advertisement
from an unknown (*) magazine would be sufficient to accuse someone of
loitering, much less the sin being charged here: idolatry in the first
degree. I thought Jonathan Baker at least had more sense; I have long
thought that Josh Backon was somewhat unbalanced, and I know that I am not
the only one to have placed James Garner in my killfiles.
jds
(*) I believe I am Halachically forbidden to believe anything you three
say.
--
j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au | 'Look up, speak nicely, and don't
Fax: +61-3-95259206 | twiddle your fingers all the time.'
Email not accepted from rogue sites including: AOL, Moneyworld, Interramp,
Airmail, Earthstar and Winternet.
Jonathan J. Baker
In <> j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) writes:
Joe is letting his Lubavitch apologetism get ahead of him. I know he
has many friends in Lubavitch, we even have one in common (Zev). But
the idiocy of some in Lubavitch is still idiocy.
>>In article <>, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
>>> Shortly after the Rebbe's petirah, I picked up a copy of
>>> a "Chabad Magazine", which had an ad in it for a medallion with a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Note the Capital Letters. Note the Quote Marks.
This was the NAME OF THE MAGAZINE. I'm only sorry I threw it out when I
moved offices a few months back, or I could give you the issue & page no.
>>> full-face raised picture of the Rebbe. I was a bit suspicious about
>>> this w.r.t avodah zarah, so I showed it to the ex-Lubavitcher at
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> work who had gone to yeshiva w/Rabbi Hecht (Zev knows which Hecht),
^^^^ He's not a "supposed rabbi", he's a programmer, who I don't think
really needs his name on the net associated with Lubavitch-bashing. The
rest of his family is Lubavitch, I don't think he or they would appreciate
the publicity.
>>> who told me that it is indeed a pesel (idolatrous statue/image).
>bac...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>>Check the Rambam Hilchot Avodat Kochavim 3:10-11 where it's a definite
>>prohibition to make a 3-D image of a person.
>You three are hysterical; the obsession of each of you is feeding on that
Of course I'm hysterical. Being publicly insulted by someone who I trust
to have more sense than some on this board (and a sense of humor) is not
pleasant.
>of the others. Even if the alleged (*) medallion were to be forbidden, it
>was made by some third party and not Chabad. Even if it were to be
So? It was advertised in their English-langauge magazine. I must admit
that I did not see that ad in later magazines, presumably someone with
some halachic sense had it pulled.
>forbidden the most you could say is that the supposed (*) magazine should
>not have accepted the advertisement. And even then, it's hardly the little
>idolatrous statue that James Garner is rabbitting on about.
An idolatrous statue is an idolatrous statue. See Josh's citation of the
Rambam for this. Even if it was not made for worship, it is still an
idolatrous statue if it is a 3-D image of a person, full face, even a partial
picture (see S"A Y"D 141:7), it is forbidden. The Rema says that it's not
forbidden (a partial figure). I suppose we would have to look at the SA
HaRav to see which side Lubavitch holds with: Tur/Rema, or Rambam/S"A.
>Oh yes - and I hardly think Jonathan Baker's supposed (*) meeting with an
Twit. I said I met with a co-worker.
>unidentified (*) Rabbi where he showed him a speculative (*) advertisement
Who was not a rabbi, but had learned in Lubavitch yeshiva for rabbinate,
but dropped out to go to college. He also has an almost photographic
memory. (He follows a different rebbe today)
>from an unknown (*) magazine would be sufficient to accuse someone of
I SAID the title. If quote-marks & capital letters are insufficient
identification of a magazine title, I don't know what is.
>loitering, much less the sin being charged here: idolatry in the first
At least some advertiser may have been guilty of idolatry in the second
or third degree (since presumably there was no intent for anyone to
(God forbid) actually *worship* the medallion), and anyone who bought
from them. Clearly the advertiser thought there was a market for this.
>degree. I thought Jonathan Baker at least had more sense; I have long
I do have more sense. I can't help it if your need to apologize for
Lubavitch, even the fringiest kind, blinds you to religious idiocy.
(other personal insults against others removed)
>(*) I believe I am Halachically forbidden to believe anything you three
>say.
If you feel that way, don't read SCJ at all. It's full of lashon hara
and rechilut and motzi shem ra. However, if someone (an advertiser in
"Chabad Magazine" and possibly his customers) is sinning, and encouraging
others to sin (selling idols in a religious magazine, to convey the idea
that the religious sponsors of the magazine approve of it), then it is
not forbidden to publicize it.
Jonathan Baker
jjb...@panix.com
Joe Slater
jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
>Joe is letting his Lubavitch apologetism get ahead of him. I know he
>has many friends in Lubavitch, we even have one in common (Zev). But
>the idiocy of some in Lubavitch is still idiocy.
Certainly. But there is a huge gulf between idiocy (which in any event is
hardly universal) and idolatry. It is a very serious matter indeed to
accuse a Jew of this. My particular objection to your response was that
you supported James Garner's contention that (G-d forbid!) Lubavitchers
keep statues of the Lubavitcher Rebbe OBM, with your anecdote about
having once seen an advertisement for a medallion bearing a relief of his
face.
I don't believe such medallions should be made, nor should the magazine
have accepted the advertisement. From the information you later provide
it seems that they may have realised this themselves, since it did not
reappear.
James Garner made a claim of actual idolatry amongst Lubavitchers, G-d
forbid. You claim that an advertisement for a doubtfully-forbidden object
was accepted by a magazine put out by people associated with Chabad. Why,
you don't even know who authorised the ad - most magazines are produced by
companies making dozens of publications, with a single advertising office
handling all the sales. The magazine editors may not even see the
advertising until after publication.
I am confident that James Garner's claim is false. He has not produced any
evidence, as far as I know, not even an "I was there and I saw it". The
accusation is a wicked one, an appalling one, one which must be
strenuously attacked. Any Jewish group sanctioning the production of
statues of religious leaders no longer deserves the term "Jewish", except
in the sense that it is a Jewish heresy. This is why I responded to you as
I did: even if your intent was not to buttress the outlandish claims of
James Garner it was surely the effect.
Finally, I make no apologies for apologetics. Rebutting slander (I am not
here referring to your post) is surely a good thing. Even if the facts of
a matter are true, we are enjoined to judge people favorably. This applies
to all people; how much more those who have at any time been the
recipients of kindness and hospitality from Chabad.
jds
mos...@vms.huji.ac.il
>
> Joe is letting his Lubavitch apologetism get ahead of him. I know
> he has many friends in Lubavitch, we even have one in common (Zev).
> But the idiocy of some in Lubavitch is still idiocy.
Jonathan, you're being mild here. "Idiocy" is something we're all
(well, almost all) guilty of at some time or another. The meshichistim
seem to be much worse.
>>>In article <>, jjb...@panix.com (Jonathan J. Baker) writes:
>>>> Shortly after the Rebbe's petirah, I picked up a copy of
>>>> a "Chabad Magazine", which had an ad in it for a medallion with a
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Note the Capital Letters. Note the Quote Marks.
> This was the NAME OF THE MAGAZINE. I'm only sorry I threw it out when I
> moved offices a few months back, or I could give you the issue & page no.
Jonathan, note the indefinite article ("a") preceding the name. That
_may_ have caused the misunderstanding. I personally never heard of
a magazine called "Chabad Magazine". It _sounds_ much more like a
generic title.
> In <> j...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Joe Slater) writes:
>>You three are hysterical; the obsession of each of you is feeding on that
>
> Of course I'm hysterical. Being publicly insulted by someone who I
> trust to have more sense than some on this board (and a sense of
> humor) is not pleasant.
Jonathan, many things in life are "not pleasant". You still shouldn't
get hysterical. OTOH, an honest show of emotion is a good indication
of the depths and truth of ones feelings.
[much snipped]
>> I thought Jonathan Baker at least had more sense;
>
> I do have more sense. I can't help it if your need to apologize for
> Lubavitch, even the fringiest kind, blinds you to religious idiocy.
>
> (other personal insults against others removed)
>
>>(*) I believe I am Halachically forbidden to believe anything you three
>>say.
>
> If you feel that way, don't read SCJ at all. It's full of lashon hara
> and rechilut and motzi shem ra.
<sigh>
Does it have to be? Can't we all try to "guard our tongues" when
posting? (It _may_ take out all the fun. In _that_ case, we shouldn't
be posting in the first place!)
> However, if someone (an advertiser in "Chabad Magazine" and possibly
> his customers) is sinning, and encouraging others to sin (selling
> idols in a religious magazine, to convey the idea that the religious
> sponsors of the magazine approve of it), then it is not forbidden to
> publicize it.
>
> Jonathan Baker
> jjb...@panix.com
Jonathan, I have much love and admiration for Chabad. The sooner they
get rid of the "loonies" the better off they'll be. I just hope it's
not too late. I _think_ that that is the point of your posts as well.