Non-Jewish Holocaust victims
Anathema35
remain an invisible, ignored subject. Non-Jews were slaughtered in the same
camps using the same methods and for the same revolting reasons. In the case of
gypsies the Nazis issued two decrees, that called for the total extermination
of those people in the same manner that they did so for Jews.
It is inexcusable revisionism to treat the Holocaust as a singularly Jewish
experience. When Elie Weisel wished to justify Jewish exclusivity to the
Holocaust, he glibly and insultingly remarked "Although not all victims were
Jews, all Jews were victims."
Of the over 50 Holocaust museums in the USA, all dismiss, disregard and ignore
5 million murdered people. The Los Angeles museum is a prime example, a plaque
on the wall lists figures for victims at each camp...but only lists victims who
were Jews!
The death count for victims of the Holocaust is 11,000,000 systematically
murdered people; that is the truth. That is what we should tell our children,
that is what I will tell my children.
Regards
Shannon
Omri Schwarz
Don't you see the problem?
Start with the Gypsies: WW2 ends. What do they do?
What they always did: travel. THat made archiving their
testimonies a bit difficult (or studying *anything* about them,
for that matter). Meet a Gypsy one day, write a report, then,
if you want to do a followup later, too bad. He might be anywhere.
Other populations: Poles: many died. many of rest of the Poles
were still just a tad antisemitic, and it took a generation
until relations between Jews and Poles improved to the way
they are today.
Next we have smaller religious groups. Those were fragmented,
disorganized.
Why look for prejudice in this matter when logistics explain
it just as well?
--
Omri Schwarz
"As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual
certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life
- so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so
you can meet girls." -- M. Cartmill
jott...@my-dejanews.com
This is ridiculous. The core primary sources of history are archival
documents not interviews with survivors years after the facts. The documents
on tbe Nazi extermination of Gypsies are in the exact same archives as those
for the extermination of Jews. In fact often they are in the very same
documents, the Einsatzgruppen OS reports for instance. Despite this fact,
almost all histories of the Holocaust deal almost exclusively with only the
Jewish victims. Do a page by page break down on non-Jewish victims mentioned
in the standard works on the Holocaust (not the Shoa) and see that 90%+ is
devoted to Jews even though they comprised only 50%-60% of the total number
of civilians deliberately slaughtered by the Nazis. The problem is not lack
of information on Gypsies, Poles, or Jehova Witnesses, the German archives
have plenty of it.
The reason Jews get much more attention than these other groups is that
Jewish national identity is totally dependent upon the Shoa and the state of
Israel. The Shoa is more important since without it there would be no Israel.
Hence Jews devote a lot of effort to publicizing the Shoa in order to retain
the last bit of Jewish identity left since the majority stopped believing in
God. Polish national identity would not suffer any losses. Neither would
Gypsy identity. But, if there had not been the Shoa, Israel would never have
been founded and the Jewish diaspora would have assimilated to point of
virtually ceasing to exist. Only the handful of Hasidic and other ultra
Orthodox would retain any sense of Jewish identity.
J. Otto Pohl
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Nikodem Dyzma
jott...@my-dejanews.com napisał(a) w wiadomości:
<75sihb$ruk$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Nikodem Dyzma
Nik
Anathema35
historical context, percentage of population murdered, and the debateable
greater hatred that the Nazis exhibited towards Jews over other persecuted
groups. It is obvious that it is fanciful to expect the majority of the Jewish
community to begin speaking of an inclusive Holocaust and to be comfortable
refering to 11,000,000 victims. Additionally most non-Jews without ancestral
links to Holocaust victims seemed to have succumbed to the 6,000,000 Jews
refrain, to the extent that many remain unaware that 5,000,000 non-Jews lost
their lives in the same camps through the same methods. Though a handful of
folks such J. Otto Pohl may debate the issue with facts, figures, clarity and
rationalism, it seems lamentabally apparent that those of us that really do not
want to forget the Holocaust (meaning all of its victims) will be accused of
anti-semitism and ironically revisionism. I will maintain for as long as I live
though, that those that distort history are just as likely to forget history as
those that forget it.
Shannon
Simcha Streltsov
: Start with the Gypsies: WW2 ends. What do they do?
: What they always did: travel. THat made archiving their
: Other populations: Poles: many died. many of rest of the Poles
: were still just a tad antisemitic, and it took a generation
: until relations between Jews and Poles improved to the way
: they are today.
both Gypsies and Poles wer under Soviet occupation after WW2.
It made gathering any documents on people killed during the war
by both Nazis and Soviets a little difficult. AFAIK, Poland is
still debating when and how to open their archives (probably,
cleaned up numerous times already)
--
Simcha Streltsov disclaimer, as requested by Mo-he S-rr
simc...@juno.com all punctuation marks in this article
http://cad.bu.edu/go/simon are equivalent to (-:
Susan Cohen
jott...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> The reason Jews get much more attention than these other groups is that
> Jewish national identity is totally dependent upon the Shoa and the state of
> Israel.
Crap.
> Jews devote a lot of effort to publicizing the Shoa in order to retain
> the last bit of Jewish identity left since the majority stopped believing in
> God.
Double crap.
> But, if there had not been the Shoa, [snip] the Jewish diaspora would have
> assimilated to point of
> virtually ceasing to exist. Only the handful of Hasidic and other ultra
> Orthodox would retain any sense of Jewish identity.
Triple crap.
Three strikes - crapped out.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Nikodem Dyzma wrote:
> I agree with J. Otto Pohl
Then you are just as wrong.
Susan
Anathema35
and the justification for Jewish exclusivity, it is as follows: 11,000,000 (or
perhaps 12,000,000) died in Nazi death camps 6,000,000 of whom were Jews the
balance an assortment of other groups. Jews were persecuted more heavy handedly
than any other group, and have also been the perenial whipping boy of European
christians. Therefore the Holocaust rightly belongs to Jews.
Shannon
jott...@my-dejanews.com
Really? How many American Jews keep the Sabbath? How many speak Yiddish? How
many identify with anything Jewish other than Israel and the Shoa? Almost
none. Show me that the majority of American Jews attend temple every Saturday
and speak fluent Yiddish and I might take you seriously.
Jkix
of the commemoration of the Holcaust as Jewish is that the Jews were the main
target of the Nazi atrocities. Approximately 11 million people were killed in
the Holocaust. More than half (approx. 6,000,000) were Jewish. The other 5
million were made up of many different groups. Being brought up Jewish, and
having gone to a Jewish day school, I was always taught to acknowledge that
many other groups were murdered in the Holocaust. The point of Holocaust
Remembrance Day is not so much to glorify martyrdom of Jews as it is to raise
the awareness of the hatred and hostility among people which seems to be
inherent, and how to prevent such a large-scale tragedy from ever happening
again. Unfortunately, it hasn't done enough, because similar incidents have
happened since, such as Pol Pot's massacres in Cambodia in the 70s, or even the
"ethnic cleansing" in the former Yugoslavia. The major unique characteristic in
the Holocaust is the systematicity in the murders. Actual facilities were set
up to kill people. Human history has never seen such "murder machines" as the
gas chambers.
Silent Z
"It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings
and pence"
"I never met Napoleon, but I plan to find the time!"
Anathema35
>most
>of the commemoration of the Holcaust as Jewish is that the Jews were the main
>target of the Nazi atrocities
During WW1 and WW2 American servicemen and American civilians consistuted a
far smaller fraction of war dead than the British. Following your ethical line,
it would be appropriate for the British, to speak only their own war dead in
literature and common speech.
Shannon
Clifford Statum
<75v7it$tv2$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <36827618...@smart.NOSPAMnet>,
> Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
>> jott...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> > The reason Jews get much more attention than these other groups is that
>> > Jewish national identity is totally dependent upon the Shoa and the
state of
>> > Israel.
>> Crap.
Agreed.
I believe that the Balfour Declaration was wriiten in 1917.
Additionally, I believe that if you will read the Nazi Bible
(Mein Kampf) you will find that little Adolf declares the
Jews (not the JW's or the Gypsies) as the source of
Germany's woes.
>> > Jews devote a lot of effort to publicizing the Shoa in order to retain
>> > the last bit of Jewish identity left since the majority stopped
believing in
>> > God.
>> Double crap.
Twice agreed. Since when have the 'majority' of Jews
stopped believing in G-d ? While they will probably
disagree upon levels of Observance, they have never
abandoned their belief in G-d.
>> > But, if there had not been the Shoa, [snip] the Jewish diaspora would
have
>> > assimilated to point of
>> > virtually ceasing to exist. Only the handful of Hasidic and other ultra
>> > Orthodox would retain any sense of Jewish identity.
>> Triple crap.
Thrice agreed. Did anyone watch Nightline last night ?
I wonder how J. Otto would explain the young man's
innate desire to return to Judaism after having been
raised Catholic by his parents, who themselves had
converted to Catholicism from Judaism.
>> Three strikes - crapped out.
>> Susan
>Really? How many American Jews keep the Sabbath?
A more pertinent question would be how many American's
(Jewish and Xtian) keep the Sabbath ? The answer is 'not
enough.'
> How many speak Yiddish?
Where does it state that one's Jewish-ness is predicated
upon fluency in Yiddish ?
> How many identify with anything Jewish other than
>Israel and the Shoa? Almost none. Show me that the
>majority of American Jews attend temple every Saturday
>and speak fluent Yiddish and I might take you seriously.
>J. Otto Putz
The more salient question is who is supposed to take
YOU seriously ?
Mark Borok
> Really? How many American Jews keep the Sabbath? How many speak Yiddish?
Hmm. Does this mean that African-Americans should speak the dialect of
plantation slaves to be considered truly "black"? Or maybe creole, or some
version of pidgin English spoken in the Caribbean? If you'd said Hebrew
instead of Yiddish, it might have appeared that you were at least making
some sense. I wonder if this means also that Sephardic Jews, who never
spoke Yiddish, should learn this eastern European dialect.
For the record, I don't believe in God myself, but consider myself Jewish
because it gives me a sense of identity and of my place in history.
--Mark
> J. Otto Pohl
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
Mark Borok
"Restless Graphics"
Animation and multimedia design
http://www.mindspring.com/~mborok
Remove "spamless" from email address to respond
Omri Schwarz
>
> In article <36816B0D...@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU>,
> Omri Schwarz <ocsc...@antispam.mapsitna.MIT.EDU> wrote:
> > Hellloooo!
> >
> This is ridiculous. The core primary sources of history are archival
> documents not interviews with survivors years after the facts. The documents
> on tbe Nazi extermination of Gypsies are in the exact same archives as those
> for the extermination of Jews. In fact often they are in the very same
Actually, no.
The Nazis' main policy towards Gypsies was to encourage a long-standing
practice in Europe of randomly killing and harrassing Gypsies. Not
as many Gyspies went to the camps as were killed this way.
> documents, the Einsatzgruppen OS reports for instance. Despite this fact,
> almost all histories of the Holocaust deal almost exclusively with only the
> Jewish victims. Do a page by page break down on non-Jewish victims mentioned
> in the standard works on the Holocaust (not the Shoa) and see that 90%+ is
> devoted to Jews even though they comprised only 50%-60% of the total number
> of civilians deliberately slaughtered by the Nazis. The problem is not lack
> of information on Gypsies, Poles, or Jehova Witnesses, the German archives
> have plenty of it.
The records are all very nice, but in order to find out what "special
treatment" means and the such you still have to speak with
witnesses.
Going up from 50-60% to 90% on this count makes
perfect sense.
The next part is barely worth a response.
[snipped]
Israel was in the process of founding long before '48,
and the publication of most Holocaust works barely
began until the Eichman trial.
Susan Cohen
Anathema35 wrote:
> If I can sumerise Susan Cohen's attitudes towards non-Jewish Holocaust victims
> and the justification for Jewish exclusivity,
You cannot summarize my attitude towards Jewish exclusivity,
because none exists. Unless you have decided that "primacy" means
"exclusovoty," which, to most English speakers, it doe snot.
> it is as follows: 11,000,000 (or
> perhaps 12,000,000) died in Nazi death camps 6,000,000 of whom were Jews the
> balance an assortment of other groups. Jews were persecuted more heavy handedly
> than any other group, and have also been the perenial whipping boy of European
> christians. Therefore the Holocaust rightly belongs to Jews.
If you could summarize my attitude, you would have drawn a somewhat different
conclusion. "Therefore the Holocaust primarily was a persecution of Jews, but
others were murdered as well."
And I must say that I am pleased to see that you had to snip my entire
post in order to put words in my mouth. If you'd left it intact/attached,
you wouldn't have been able to as neatly as you tried above.
Susan
Susan Cohen
jott...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <36827618...@smart.NOSPAMnet>,
> Susan Cohen <ze...@smart.NOSPAMnet> wrote:
> >
> >
> > jott...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > > The reason Jews get much more attention than these other groups is that
> > > Jewish national identity is totally dependent upon the Shoa and the state of
> > > Israel.
> >
> > Crap.
> >
> > > Jews devote a lot of effort to publicizing the Shoa in order to retain
> > > the last bit of Jewish identity left since the majority stopped believing in
> > > God.
> >
> > Double crap.
> >
> > > But, if there had not been the Shoa, [snip] the Jewish diaspora would have
> > > assimilated to point of
> > > virtually ceasing to exist. Only the handful of Hasidic and other ultra
> > > Orthodox would retain any sense of Jewish identity.
> >
> > Triple crap.
> >
> > Three strikes - crapped out.
> >
> > Susan
> >
> >
>
> Really? How many American Jews keep the Sabbath?
Plenty.
> How many speak Yiddish?
Just the fact that you think "Yiddish" has *anything* to do with religiosity
shows how ignorant you are of Jews & Judaism.
> How
> many identify with anything Jewish other than Israel and the Shoa?
Plenty.
> Almost none.
Prove this. It is a lie.
> Show me that the majority of American Jews attend temple
The majority go to synagogue or shule rather than temple.
> every Saturday
> and speak fluent Yiddish
Thank you for defeating yourself for me.
> and I might take you seriously.
I don't care whether or not you take me seriously -
you are obviously an idiot.
I only care that no one should take *you* seriously,
which they might if not one refutes you.
Susan
Susan Cohen
Anathema35 wrote:
And I've seen some of their war memorials. They don't have
an American flag there - nor should they. The British, in fact,
resent Americans acting as thought "we won the war for
them (as many Americans sometimes do)." Following *your*
ethical line, you'd probably get clobbered in a lot of pubs.
Susan
sued...@my-dejanews.com
In article <36857FD3...@smart.NOSPAMnet>,
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ze...@smart.net
In article <36857F43...@smart.NOSPAMnet>,