The difference between a chasid and a misnagid
Matthew P Wiener
don't drink, so much of the chassidic yontif escapes my comprehension.)
The Lubavitch rabbi was telling a frierderker rebbe story about what
is the difference between a chasid and a misnaggid, and how it wasn't
this, and it wasn't that, and so on and so on. At some point, I couldn't
stand it any longer, so I told a misnagid story (the one about Rav Moshe
Feinstein and his choosing one of three cartons of milk after carefully
inspecting each--his bocherim were trying to figure out what the kashrus
angle could be, but it turned out to be he was only looking for the
freshest milk). Having told the story, with everyone wondering why,
I took a cholov yisroel carton out of the refrigerator, and said that
this explains the difference between chassidim and misnagids. The
chassid double checks the heksher, and the misnagid double checks
the expiration date.
--
-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
David Kaufmann
A cute story about Rav Moshe Feinstein, z"l, who of course was no
misnaged.
I wonder, though, how many observant people would feel complimented by
the conclusion about what gets double-checked. (We assume, of course
that both the heksher and the expiration date get checked at least
once by all.)
David Kaufmann
INTERNET: da...@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
Matthew P Wiener
>A cute story about Rav Moshe Feinstein, z"l, who of course was no
>misnaged.
Which reminds me of _another_ "what's a chasid" story. It seems a bunch
of chasidim were discussing the essense of hassidut, and the more they
discussed it, the less hasidic they felt they really were, just doing
the motions. Then one of them said, "Well, maybe we can't call ourselves
Chasidim, but Baruch Atah Hashem -- Shelo Asoni Misnagid!!", and they all
cheered and had a round of l'chaims.
>I wonder, though, how many observant people would feel complimented by
>the conclusion about what gets double-checked.
Of course, you had to have been there.
> (We assume, of course
>that both the heksher and the expiration date get checked at least
>once by all.)
The chasids I know of course don't bother double checking the expiration
date on their milk, considering that they buy 5 or 6 half-gallons at a
time and freeze them.
Sean Philip Engelson
In article <102...@netnews.upenn.edu>, wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec15....@cs.tulane.edu>, david@bourbon (David Kaufmann) writes:
|> >A cute story about Rav Moshe Feinstein, z"l, who of course was no
|> >misnaged.
|>
|> Which reminds me of _another_ "what's a chasid" story. It seems a bunch
|> of chasidim were discussing the essense of hassidut, and the more they
|> discussed it, the less hasidic they felt they really were, just doing
|> the motions. Then one of them said, "Well, maybe we can't call ourselves
|> Chasidim, but Baruch Atah Hashem -- Shelo Asoni Misnagid!!", and they all
|> cheered and had a round of l'chaims.
Genug shoin! It's time for a different sort of hasid/misnagid story. This is
a parable that I heard attributed to R. Aharon Kotler Z"TL.
One time, there was a wealthy Jew (in the old country, of course) who had a
good business and owned a large house and a lot of livestock. He also had two
daughters. When it came time for the elder daughter to marry, he went to the
yeshiva to find a suitable shidduch for his daughter. He asked the rosh
yeshiva for the best bochur in the place; the father would support him in his
learning. The rosh yeshiva pointed out one of the young men, whom the father
then introduced to his daughter, they hit it off, and a wedding was scheduled.
A week before the wedding, the bridegroom-to-be came to his future
father-in-law and said that he had to tell him something before the actual
wedding took place, and he hoped it wouldn't cause a problem. The father told
him not to worry and tell him what it was. The young man then said that he
didn't eat any milchigs, only fleishig. His father-in-law replied, "No
problem! I have many cows and sheep---you'll never lack for food!" The groom
was relieved, and the wedding went as planned, and the couple were very happy
together.
A few years later, the wealthy man's second daughter comes of age, and he
repeats the procedure, going down to the yeshiva to find a husband for his
daughter. Everything goes as the last time, until, a week before the wedding,
the bridegroom-to-be comes to his future father-in-law with his own revelation,
"I hope it won't cause any problems or anything, but I don't eat any fleishigs,
only milchigs." The reply is swift: "No problem! I have many cows producing
milk and cheese; we can set up a second table in the dining room for you two,
so both of my sons-in-law can eat their own diets." And so it came to pass,
and everyone was happy.
After some time, the economy took a turn for the worse, and the man's business
started to decline. Unfortunately, he ended up having to sell his livestock to
survive. The family which had been so well off now had to subside on potatoes.
So, one day the two sons-in-law and daughters sat down to their meals of
potatoes---these two at the fleishig table and these two at the milchig table.
As they began to eat, the father walked in, looked at the situation, and
exclaimed, "Kinder! It's all potatoes! We should all sit together at one
table and eat as a family!"
Hasidim? Misnagdim?
IT'S ALL POTATOES! Let's all sit together as one family, already!
-Shlomo-
--
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson
Yale Department of Computer Science
Box 2158 Yale Station
New Haven, CT 06520
paul andrew braier
>
> [...]
> We assume, of course that both the heksher and the expiration date
> get checked at least once by all.
This was brought on by a story about milk. While most food items DO
require heksher, there are many items that don't. Any fresh fruit
or vegetable (with a certain qualification for Israeli produce) doesn't
need rabbinic supervision. Whole dried spices, beans and rice don't need
a heksher. Many canned vegetables also don't need a heksher.
The reason I bring this up is that there is a disagreement regarding
milk. While certain communities hold that milk requires heksher, that is,
that milk be _cholov_Yisrael_, this is by no means required by _halacha_.
There are many reputable Orthodox authorities who maintain that
government regulations forbidding the mixture of cows' milk with other
milk (esp. pig milk) are sufficient, and that additional rabbinic
supervision is not necessary.
I believe that the standard explanation by those who insist upon only
_cholov_Yisrael_ is that they are driven by fear of G-d rather than
fear of government. While this is a legitimate argument, one must not
forget that those who do not hold by _cholov_Yisrael_ nevertheless
are NOT in violation of _kashrus_ for this.
Please note that this applies only to milk, but not to milk products
such as cheese and yogurt. It also only applies in places where
government supervision is known to be reliable, such as the USA. Foreign
milk, in the absence of additional necessary information, must not be
used. This is especially important for travelers to know.
-----------------------
Paul A. Braier
pa...@quads.uchicago.edu
Jordan Mann
>[...]
> so I told a misnagid story (the one about Rav Moshe
>Feinstein and his choosing one of three cartons of milk after carefully
>inspecting each--his bocherim were trying to figure out what the kashrus
>angle could be, but it turned out to be he was only looking for the
>freshest milk). Having told the story, with everyone wondering why,
>I took a cholov yisroel carton out of the refrigerator, and said that
>this explains the difference between chassidim and misnagids. The
>chassid double checks the heksher, and the misnagid double checks
>the expiration date.
The way I heard the story, Rav Moshe wasn't checking expiration dates. He
wanted to find the open carton so it would be finished before a new one was
opened.
>-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
--
Jordan Mann at NYU (ma...@cims.nyu.edu)
Jacob Solomon Weinstein
knowledge of Jewish culture is generally limited to Conservative
Judaism, so: what's a misnagid?
I figure if I keep on asking every time I see a word I don't understand
on s.c.j, I'll be a bocher by the end of the year.
Jack Love
Assuming that you're not the only one needing this data, I'll
post to the group rather than using private mail.
The term "misnagid" is the Ashkenzic pronunciation of what in
Israeli Hebrew would be pronounced "mitnaged."
^ ^
It comes from the root nun.gimmel.dalet and means (in the
participial form) "one who opposes." After the Hassidim
appeared in the late eighteenth century, the group of
Jews who were Orthodox and observant, but opposed to certain
Hassidic teachings, philosophies, methodologies, etc. Since
they defined themselves in terms of "opposing" the Hassidim,
they became known as "opposers."
Hope this helps.
--
________________________________________
Jack F. Love | Opinions expressed are mine alone.
| (Unless you happen to agree.)
Rick Turkel
It's a Yiddish word (from the Hebrew mitnaged) and means one opposed to
Chassidus. Many years ago there was a strong dichotomy between chassidim and
misnagdim, but I guess people realized that there's more in common between
us than divides us.
--
Rick Turkel (___ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___
(rm...@cas.org) ) | | \ ) |/ \ | | | \_) |
(rm...@cas.bitnet) / | _| __)/ | __) | ___|_ | _( \ |
Rich or poor, it's good to have money. |
Matthew P Wiener
>The reason I bring this up is that there is a disagreement regarding
>milk. While certain communities hold that milk requires heksher, that is,
>that milk be _cholov_Yisrael_, this is by no means required by _halacha_.
Ridiculous as it may seem, there are OU cholov stam cartons.
David Kaufmann
>> da...@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) writes:
>>
>> [...]
>> We assume, of course that both the heksher and the expiration date
>> get checked at least once by all.
>
>This was brought on by a story about milk.
From the context of the tongue-in-cheek postings by Matt and myself, I
found it odd to move to a semi-volatile issue.
>
>The reason I bring this up is that there is a disagreement regarding
>milk. While certain communities hold that milk requires heksher, that is,
>that milk be _cholov_Yisrael_, this is by no means required by _halacha_.
>There are many reputable Orthodox authorities who maintain that
>government regulations forbidding the mixture of cows' milk with other
>milk (esp. pig milk) are sufficient, and that additional rabbinic
>supervision is not necessary.
>
Unfortunately, this is not quite accurate. The Shulchan Aruch clearly
requires Cholov Yisrael. Reliance on Cholov Stam (government
supervised, as opposed to Cholov Akum, non-Jewish, milk) comes from a
ruling of Rav Moshe Feinstein,z"l, which was limited to milk and to
young children, for health purposes. It has been expanded out of
context.
>I believe that the standard explanation by those who insist upon only
>_cholov_Yisrael_ is that they are driven by fear of G-d rather than
>fear of government. While this is a legitimate argument, one must not
>forget that those who do not hold by _cholov_Yisrael_ nevertheless
>are NOT in violation of _kashrus_ for this.
>
I've never heard the fear of G-d vs. fear of government argument. On a
spiritual level, non-cholov Yisroel is said to cause tumtum halev, a
deadening of sensitivity. However, the only reason for cholov Yisroel
I've heard is it's a clear din in the Shulchan Aruch.
Also, one should note that those who keep glatt can use non-glatt
utensils. If one keeps cholov Yisroel, however, according to halacha,
non-cholov Yisroel utensils are not to be treated as kosher.
>Please note that this applies only to milk, but not to milk products
>such as cheese and yogurt. It also only applies in places where
>government supervision is known to be reliable, such as the USA. Foreign
>milk, in the absence of additional necessary information, must not be
>used. This is especially important for travelers to know.
>
This, of course, is correct and extremely important. If all users of
cholov Stam limited themselves to Rav Feinstein's psak, the
controversy wouldn't exist. But when cheese, yogurt, ice cream, etc.,
suddenly become milk, in violation of the Shulchan Aruch and Rav
Feinstein's psak, then the trouble begins.
>
>-----------------------
>Paul A. Braier
>pa...@quads.uchicago.edu
BTW, youWs was a good, thought-provoking post. I hope it stimulates the
the discussion it deserves. SCJ needs more such.
David Kaufmann
INTERNET: da...@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
David Kaufmann
tales/jokes...
A chasid and misnaged happened to find themselves praying in the same
synagogue. The misnaged finished in record time, while the chasid was
still going long after everyone else was finished.
As they were the only two left, they struck up a conversation.
"Tell me," says the misnagid, "why do you take so long to daven
(pray)?"
"And tell me, why do your prayers go so swiftly?" answered the chasid.
"The words of prayer are like a fence," explained the misnaged. "I put
mine close together in order to that extraneous, distracting thoughts
not enter my mind while I am in the spiritual realms."
"Ah!" exclaimed the chasid. "My prayers take so long for the same
reason. For the closeness of the "poles" of your "fence" may as easily
keep something undesirable inside. But with my fence, I give them
plenty of room to leave."
>
>> (We assume, of course
>>that both the heksher and the expiration date get checked at least
>>once by all.)
>
>The chasids I know of course don't bother double checking the expiration
>date on their milk, considering that they buy 5 or 6 half-gallons at a
>time and freeze them.
>
It seems this, too, could be turned into a good joke of the day.
Thanks, Matt.
--
David Kaufmann
INTERNET: da...@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
David Kaufmann
Sean writes:
Hasidim? Misnagdim?
IT'S ALL POTATOES! Let's all sit together as one family, already!
But some only eat their potatoes mashed, while others prefer them
baked.
Seriously, there are no more misnagdim in the original usage of the
term, because the opposition was to supposed violations of Jewish law.
When the chassidim proved themselves not to be heretical, the
antagonism largely disappeared and both groups cooperated greatly in
communal affairs.
And as a chasid, I must say I find no problem with some good-natured
teasing and ribbing now and then. The key is to respect each other.
With that, we can smile with each other. I took Matt's posts in this
spirit and assume he took mine in the same way.
With Ahavat Yisroel, we may laugh together. Without it, we will cry
apart.
David Kaufmann
INTERNET: da...@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
samuel.saal
jac...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jacob Solomon Weinstein) writes:
>All right... I hate to be the one to ask, but my
>knowledge of Jewish culture is generally limited to Conservative
>Judaism, so: what's a misnagid?
Anyone with a pH above 7. After all Misnagdim are the opposite of Acidim.
I'll leave the serious answers to someone else.
--
Sam Saal kingfish!saal OR sa...@kingfish.att.com
Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Matthew P Wiener
>Unfortunately, this is not quite accurate. The Shulchan Aruch clearly
>requires Cholov Yisrael. Reliance on Cholov Stam (government
>supervised, as opposed to Cholov Akum, non-Jewish, milk) comes from a
>ruling of Rav Moshe Feinstein,z"l, which was limited to milk and to
>young children, for health purposes. It has been expanded out of
>context.
His first one was limited. His later teshuvot became much more permissive.
>>I believe that the standard explanation by those who insist upon only
>>_cholov_Yisrael_ is that they are driven by fear of G-d rather than
>>fear of government. While this is a legitimate argument, one must not
>>forget that those who do not hold by _cholov_Yisrael_ nevertheless
>>are NOT in violation of _kashrus_ for this.
>I've never heard the fear of G-d vs. fear of government argument. On a
>spiritual level, non-cholov Yisroel is said to cause tumtum halev, a
>deadening of sensitivity. However, the only reason for cholov Yisroel
>I've heard is it's a clear din in the Shulchan Aruch.
If you ask some people why do they hold by cholov yisroel, even when they
agree that Rav Moshe Feinstein's permission is unarguable, they will mention
various spiritual reasons.
>Also, one should note that those who keep glatt can use non-glatt
>utensils. If one keeps cholov Yisroel, however, according to halacha,
>non-cholov Yisroel utensils are not to be treated as kosher.
Not all agree with this. One OU kashrus rabbi told me that the level
of rekashering between OU cholov stam and OU cholov yisroel runs is
often much less than the OU would require between treif and kashrus.
They try to schedule the cholov yisroel first, but it doesn't always
work out that way.
I know of people who keep separate cholov stam (for their stuff) and
cholov yisroel (for some of their guests) utensils.
>This, of course, is correct and extremely important. If all users of
>cholov Stam limited themselves to Rav Feinstein's psak, the
>controversy wouldn't exist. But when cheese, yogurt, ice cream, etc.,
>suddenly become milk, in violation of the Shulchan Aruch and Rav
>Feinstein's psak, then the trouble begins.
What are you saying? In addition to inappropriately relying on just his
first pask (that is why you use the singular, yes?), the Shulchan Aruch
explicitly permits cholov stam cheese and butter. (Camel's milk would
not curdle properly, or something like that.)
I in fact know of people who vaguely claim to hold their dairy at the
Shulchan Aruch level--mamish milk is cholov yisroel, but they rely on
cholov stam for any milk-based products.
Isaac Balbin
>Seriously, there are no more misnagdim in the original usage of the
>term, because the opposition was to supposed violations of Jewish law.
>When the chassidim proved themselves not to be heretical, the
>antagonism largely disappeared and both groups cooperated greatly in
>communal affairs.
Whilst I don't agree with Rav Shach and his Chassidim, they
actually *do* constitute misnagdim today. They *do* believe that Chassidim
(notably, perhaps only, Chabad) are heretical and do violate jewish law.
My Rov tells me (in Yiddish)
``today? there are no Chassidim and no Misnagdim. I wish there were!''
Don Gertler
> This was brought on by a story about milk. While most food items DO
> require heksher, there are many items that don't. Any fresh fruit
> or vegetable (with a certain qualification for Israeli produce) doesn't
> need rabbinic supervision. Whole dried spices, beans and rice don't need
> a heksher. Many canned vegetables also don't need a heksher.
Though it may be argued that fresh fruits and vegetables do not
require rabbinic supervision, save for the above-mentioned
qualification, many people are quite careful with regard to
checking for bugs in certain vegetables. Many poskim hold,
for instance, that Brussels sprouts and artichokes not be
eaten at all, since they are nearly impossible to inspect
thoroughly.
Some kashrut organizations will refuse to grant a hekhsher on
certain vegetables altogether; on others, they may require full
inspection, by any of a variety of methods suitable to the
particular vegetable.
> The reason I bring this up is that there is a disagreement regarding
> milk. While certain communities hold that milk requires heksher, that is,
> that milk be _cholov_Yisrael_, this is by no means required by _halacha_.
For those communities that require chalav Yisrael (more grammatically,
chalev Yisrael), CY *is* required by Halakha. Many would call it a
chiddush that CY *not* be required, some even claiming that, were it
not for a heter from a respected Halakhic authority, it would be a
violation of Halakha to drink chalav stam. (That doesn't mean, however,
that everyone accepts the psak.) Much is involved in this particular
issue, but a peremptory remark that CY is not required by Halakha is
at best incomplete.
> There are many reputable Orthodox authorities who maintain that
> government regulations forbidding the mixture of cows' milk with other
> milk (esp. pig milk) are sufficient, and that additional rabbinic
> supervision is not necessary.
Even among those who hold by Rav Moshe's teshuva wrt CY, there are
many who recognize the circumstances he spelled out as being relevant,
even necessary. They would claim that because CY was costly and
difficult to obtain, we could rely on the government's inspections.
Now that CY is accessible and costs only pennies more than non-CY
(or Cnon-Y) -- in many communities, at least -- the heter should
not be relied upon.
> I believe that the standard explanation by those who insist upon only
> _cholov_Yisrael_ is that they are driven by fear of G-d rather than
> fear of government. While this is a legitimate argument, one must not
> forget that those who do not hold by _cholov_Yisrael_ nevertheless
> are NOT in violation of _kashrus_ for this.
There are those who hold that this Halakha, straight from the Gemara,
is as valid as the laws of bishul Yisrael, which all require. Others
compare it to pat Yisrael, which most consider to be a chumra. It
should be noted, however, that some require pat Yisrael whenever it
is available (e.g., the town has such a bakery). The Mishnah Brurah
says that one should be careful to use only pat Yisrael during the
time from Rosh HaShanah to Yom Kippur.
Regardless of one's dairy preference (or is "orientation" more
politically correct?), no-one should call non-CY milk "treif,"
since very respected Halakhic authorities permit it.
> Please note that this applies only to milk, but not to milk products
> such as cheese and yogurt. It also only applies in places where
> government supervision is known to be reliable, such as the USA. Foreign
> milk, in the absence of additional necessary information, must not be
> used. This is especially important for travelers to know.
Again, there is some disagreement here. Some will use non-CY butter.
I believe the Gemara states that butter cannot be made from the milk
of non-kosher animals, even though horse milk (and perhaps others)
can, in fact, make butter.
Cheeses may fall under the same category. I am not so sure that even
all those CY-ists who eat non-CY cheeses, though, restrict their CY-ism
to milk alone. They may, of course. I was merely unaware of this. (It
wouldn't be the first time.)
I guess with Chanukka coming up, all this could be considered `inyanei
deyoma.
-Don Gertler
David Kaufmann
>da...@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) writes:
>
>>Seriously, there are no more misnagdim in the original usage of the
>>term, because the opposition was to supposed violations of Jewish law.
>>When the chassidim proved themselves not to be heretical, the
>>antagonism largely disappeared and both groups cooperated greatly in
>>communal affairs.
>
>Whilst I don't agree with Rav Shach and his Chassidim, they
>actually *do* constitute misnagdim today. They *do* believe that Chassidim
>(notably, perhaps only, Chabad) are heretical and do violate jewish law.
>
Rav Shach Chassidim is insulting to those who try to be. Further,
since the original opposition to Chassidus, at least among those who
were sincere, came from those committed to Jewish law and unsure about
the committment of Chassidim, opposition today cannot be classified
the same way. No one who has paid attention to Chassidism and its
leaders (notably Chabad) can doubt the committment to Jewish law.
Further, I wonder how seriously we should take the statements of one
who claims that all those who died in the Holocaust were sinners, that
sephardim can't learn and that non-observant Jews aren't Jewish?
>My Rov tells me (in Yiddish)
>
>``today? there are no Chassidim and no Misnagdim. I wish there were!''
Unfortunately, your Rov's sentiments have much truth in them.
David Kaufmann
INTERNET: da...@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
David Kaufmann
I tried to e-mail this to Don Gertler in response to his post, but it
got bounced:
A good post on an important, and unfortunately, controversial, issue
of some complexity. I'm hoping that, as we all explore this more
deeply, of course in a spirit of Ahavat Yisroel, som real learning
will take place.
Thanks for your contribution.
David Kaufmann
INTERNET: da...@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu
Joel Goldberg
>In article <isaac.724544352@etrog> is...@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin) writes:
>>Whilst I don't agree with Rav Shach and his Chassidim, they
>>actually *do* constitute misnagdim today. They *do* believe that Chassidim
>>(notably, perhaps only, Chabad) are heretical and do violate jewish law.
>>
>I don't think you meant to be insulting, but calling the followers of
>Rav Shach Chassidim is insulting to those who try to be.
read what other people write before replying? Look at what Isaac
Balbin writes (leaving out the subordinate clauses) Rav Shach and
his Chassidim do believe that Chassidim are heretical. Now, this
so obviously doesn't make sense that either (insulting remark deleted)
or, clearly, what was meant is that Rav Shach and his
followers/charedim do believe that Chassidim are heretical.
David Kaufmann then replies about how can Rav Shach's followers
be called Chassidim, when it would seem obvious, or at least worthy
of clarification, that Isaac Balbin has done no such thing.
In other words, people (in this case DK)
should try and figure out whether the person (in this case IB)
has made a mistake, or really meant what they typed.
Disclaimers: I take no position on the various Jewish philosophies
involved, while reserving judgement on actions they
lead to.
I am also guilty of replying without re-reading on
occasion.
Hillel Applebaum
says that since AV 5752, all milk (and dry milk) in Vered-HaGalil
factory is CHALV YISRAEL !!! (b4 that only most of the milk was).
NOTE that that makes Vered Hagalil the only producer of CHALAV-
YISRAEL white-chocolate n Israel.
--
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
/ Hillel P. Applebaum |> ISRAEL - where all Better the Golan
/ Jerusalem, Israel | jews should live ! then peace without it.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*--*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
Matthew P Wiener
>I don't think you meant to be insulting, but calling the followers of
I think Isaac Balbin was using "chasid" in the literal sense of piety,
just like you used "misnagid" in the literal sense of opponent.
Rick Turkel
Probably not. In all likelihood by 'Chassidim' he meant 'followers,' a
common ironic usage where I come from.
Is it something inherent in this medium, or are many of those who post here
sarcasm-impaired? What ever became of the good sense of humor we Jews are
supposed to have?
Warren Burstein
>Ridiculous as it may seem, there are OU cholov stam cartons.
What does this supervision ensure? Since the only ingredient in the
carton is milk, what is there to check other than the milk, and if the
milk is supervised, how is it not chalav yisrael? I could understand
if it was chocolate milk and they checked the chocolate because milk
doesn't need supervision.
--
/|/-\/-\ Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
|__/__/_/
|warren@ "WARENS statement in his signature express a Nazi idea."
/ nysernet.org Gideon Ehrlich
Warren Burstein
>I got a letter from Rav Smuel Aliyhu, the RAV of Tzfat. He
>says that since AV 5752, all milk (and dry milk) in Vered-HaGalil
>factory is CHALV YISRAEL !!! (b4 that only most of the milk was).
How does any milk in Israel (e.g. a sack of milk from Tenuvah) fail to
be Chalav Yisrael?
A more important question is when will they make a white chocolate bar
here that doesn't contain almond flavor?
Isaac Balbin
Joel arguing with David about what I said/meant.
In actual fact, I used the word Chassidim in respect to Rav Shach, pointedly
and with purpose, albeit just a trifle loosely.
Elements of Chassidism have found their way into Misnagdic (non-Chassidic)
circles. The collapse of the Shtetl, and Rav of a Shtetl, the growth of
big town Judasim and the increase in information exchange rates have
found expression in the new concept of `Daas Torah'.
This concept is intertwined with the idea of subservience of to a Rabbi.
Increased levels of subservience are more of a Chassidic notion than anything
else. The term, Emunas Chachomim appears but once in Rabbinic literature, and
is not necessarily referring to Emuna BeChachomim, it could mean Emuna Shel
Chachomim. Further, the dictum of Lo Tosur need not be equated to
the level inherent in Chassidic Circles.
There is little doubt that today Rav Shach's followers are acting more like
Chassidim when it comes to subservience as a means of complying with
the so called `Daas Torah' (or as Professor Kaplan calls it Deos Torah!).
PS. Even the Chosid should be happy when others adopt Chassidic concepts.
Most certainly there was no intention to offend.
CAR...@auvm.american.edu
says:
>
>In <102...@netnews.upenn.edu> wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
>writes:
>
>>Ridiculous as it may seem, there are OU cholov stam cartons.
>
>What does this supervision ensure? Since the only ingredient in the
>carton is milk, what is there to check other than the milk
It ensures that the milk is acceptable to those who follow the ruling that
chalav stam is acceptable.
I see such cartons frequently while visiting my parents in New York but I
haven't seen them here in DC yet.
One of these days my curiousity will be strong enough to contact the (U)
and find out exactly what is involved in getting such certification for
unsupervised milk.
Rabbi Charles Arian
CAR...@american.edu
Sean Philip Engelson
In article <30...@israel.nysernet.org>, war...@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein) writes:
|> In <102...@netnews.upenn.edu> wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
|>
|> >Ridiculous as it may seem, there are OU cholov stam cartons.
|>
|> What does this supervision ensure? Since the only ingredient in the
|> carton is milk, what is there to check other than the milk, and if the
|> milk is supervised, how is it not chalav yisrael? I could understand
|> if it was chocolate milk and they checked the chocolate because milk
|> doesn't need supervision.
My question would be: For chalav yisrael, is yotse venichnas(*)
considered good enough? If not, then perhaps this OU indicates yotse
venichnas supervision.
-Shlomo-
(*) Literally "going out and coming in", which means intermittent
supervision, where a mashgiach is not there all the time, but comes in
and out (hence the term) at frequent random intervals. This level of
supervision is usually enough for regular kashrut.
norman miller
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Keywords:
In article <isaac.724902252@etrog> is...@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin) wr
ites:
>There is little doubt that today Rav Shach's followers are acting more like
>Chassidim when it comes to subservience as a means of complying with
>the so called `Daas Torah' (or as Professor Kaplan calls it Deos Torah!).
>
>PS. Even the Chosid should be happy when others adopt Chassidic concepts.
> Most certainly there was no intention to offend.
Maybe Hasidim are pleased that their perversion of the relation
between Kahal and Rav has spread, but should the rest of us be?
Of course this doesn't _begin_ with dinosaurs like Shach; I have
in mind the Kheyfets Khaim and the Agudas Yisroel in prewar Poland.
In fairness to the misnagdim, however, they cannot be accused of
peddling the heretical idea of a Rebbe who --like the Church--
stands between man and God. Hasidim have that field to themselves.
Norman Miller
Jack Love
>What does this supervision ensure? Since the only ingredient in the
>carton is milk, what is there to check other than the milk, and if the
>milk is supervised, how is it not chalav yisrael? I could understand
>if it was chocolate milk and they checked the chocolate because milk
>doesn't need supervision.
Although I should probably stay out of this one, what the heck...
Some Jews are concerned about the possibility that the milk may
not exclusively come from cows. In particular, in Europe, some
(non-Jewish) communities used pigs' milk (obviously, there's
no problem in Judaism with goat or sheep's milk). A friend of
mine who was raised in Young Israel, but who eventually became
a rabbi in the Chabad movement lived in northern California
for a while. Although he was not a mashgiah, he took the time
to go to a local dairy and satisfy himself that cows were
exclusively used for milk production. That dairy then became
the sole supplier of milk for his community.
Among many not-so-Orthodox Jews, the USDA's "hekhsher" is
enough, since that gov't agency requires that cows' milk
be the only ingredient in a product labelled "milk." In
addition, I have heard it argued that pig, goat, and sheeps'
milk is considerably more expensive in this country than
cows' milk, so they would be very unlikely to be adulterative
ingredients.
Additional disclaimer: I do not consider myself an expert
in kashruth, please leave flame-throwers outside the door. :-)
Joel Goldberg
>Joel arguing with David about what I said/meant.
>In actual fact, I used the word Chassidim in respect to Rav Shach, pointedly
>and with purpose, albeit just a trifle loosely.
>Elements of Chassidism have found their way into Misnagdic (non-Chassidic)
get hoist on my own petard. Although, other people seemed to
interpret Isaac's use of the word Chassidim in a small "c" sense,
which is also different from what Isaac is describing here. So,...
it seems that I am after all, right (!) --it's fair to assume that
the other person isn't an idiot and has a reason for what they're
writing. I, of course, am guilty as charged, since David's original
reply had a basis which didn't occur to me (chassidut meaning piety.)
Now, where was that halva discussion?
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund
] Is it something inherent in this medium, or are many of those who post here
] sarcasm-impaired? What ever became of the good sense of humor we Jews are
] supposed to have?
It has been well documented that sarcasm does not transmit well in
e-mail and netnews. This is one reason for the creation of the
side-ways smiley :-), which I use liberally [Must be my liberal
tendencies :-)]. Since much of Jewish Humor is sarcastic or black I
would encourage it's liberal application . As in:
Moshe, were there not enough graves in Mitzrayim? :-)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund sgutf...@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund
] I guess this is how Gemora (Lehavdil) got going!
Not to be too picky. But I have heard it mentioned in misnagdishe circles
that the distinction between Chassidim and Misnagdim is largely in
the concept of a Rebbe. I disagree.
I would put primary emphasis on Darchei Chassidus (which covers things
such as world outlook, ethics, minhagim, etc). That is the emotional outlook
and activities of a Chassdishe Jew. And more importantly, the intellectual
aspect of a Chassidic Jew: the learning of Chassidus. This is not to
say that the idea of a Rebbe is tofel, no, it is also a central concept.
But, rather, I would say that if Misnagdim want to be considered as Chassidim,
something more than "Daas Torah" is required. [I am not giving practical,
advice here, or a call for action, but rather pointing out that the
distinction between Chassid and Misnag is deeper than superficial appearnce
might lead one. And this distinction was not brought out in the letter, though
the author might very well be knowledgeable about this].
I also do not offer this with any intent to offend, but rather to bring out
some of the deeper distinctions that are implied in the title of this
stream: "The difference between a chasid and a misnag"
---
Isaac Balbin
>In fairness to the misnagdim, however, they cannot be accused of
>peddling the heretical idea of a Rebbe who --like the Church--
>stands between man and God. Hasidim have that field to themselves.
People should be under no illusion. Although, Norman Miller and I are
seemingly addressing the same issue, I emphatically do not share his
view that a Rebbe idea is heresy.
I believe that views such as Miller's which use the word `heresy' without
any substantive support are dangerous, divisive and to be viewed with
contempt.
If Miller wishes to argue the point (and I am not a Chosid), let him begin
with some sources. I am ready.
norman miller
ites:
>I believe that views such as Miller's which use the word `heresy' without
>any substantive support are dangerous, divisive and to be viewed with
>contempt.
>
>If Miller wishes to argue the point (and I am not a Chosid), let him begin
>with some sources. I am ready.
Well, it was a slow Monday and I thought I'd try to stir things up.
If Isaac Balbin is ready, I invite him to argue first against the
Brody herem of 1772(?) and second against the recent declaration by none
other than Rav Shacht that Habad is heretical (kofar b'ikor).
Those are the kind of sources that he takes seriously. There are others
that I take seriously and which I will be ready to discuss as things move
along.
Norman Miller
Brian E. Foont
When I was in England last year I asked the head of the United Synagogue
Beis Din whether the cheremim against the Hasidim were still in effect.
His answer were definitely NO. In addition, his reasoning was that a
cherem is not made indefintely, even Rav Gershom's cherem would run out
if it had not become standard practive. A cherem can be terminated
by the person against whom it has been placed changes their ways. The
Hassidim are quite different from what they were when the Cherem was placed.
It was placed because in the words of the Vilna Goan, "Torah would be lost
in Israel," i.e. they were not studying Torah, but rather telling stories
of the "Tzadikim." This is not longer the case, while stories of the
tzadikim are still told, there is emphasis on Torah and Talmud study.
>other than Rav Shacht that Habad is heretical (kofar b'ikor).
This is also the "Rav" that stated, "Given the opportunity he would strike
Rabbi Scheerson down with a sword." Given this, his distain for Chabad is
just that, only against Chabad. He has not said anything about the other
groups of Chasidim being under Cherem. Thus, if it were the fact that
Chasidim have Rebbes they would all be banned, this is not the case.
>
>Norman Miller
>
While I do not agree with the idea of having a rebbe, even mitnagdim have the
idea of having a rabbi, they get it from Pirke Avos, "Make for yourself
a Rabbi." We must be careful to judge the value they place on their
rebbes. As I see it the idea of the rebbe being a conduit is not quite
accurate, rather the rebbe is seen as the leader in all areas of life.
I can see the flames coming already.
Brian E. Foont
bfoo...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
My opinions are my own, but you may share them.
Jack Love
>His answer were definitely NO. In addition, his reasoning was that a
>cherem is not made indefintely, even Rav Gershom's cherem would run out
>if it had not become standard practive. A cherem can be terminated
>by the person against whom it has been placed changes their ways.
Disclaimer: I don't want to get in the crossfire on this
issue, but I have a question and comment.
What "cherem" of Rabeinu Gershom are you discussing here? The only
thing that I can think of that matches your remarks is the famous
taqanah of R. Gershom on monogamy. A taqanah is quite different from a
herem. It lasts a fixed period of 1000 years. At that point, if it is
renewed it becomes permanent. It is supposed to be renewed by a
Sanhendrin. Most O Jewish groups seem disinclined to call a Sanhendrin,
and R. Gershom's taqanah has therefore expired (or will expire
shortly--I don't remember the year it was proclaimed, and I'm not sure
how the Julian-Gregorian shift affects the dating). The taqanah has
never been considered binding on Sephardi Jews. My understanding is
that there is little motivation to make the taqanah permanent because
almost all societies in which Jews currently live ban polygamy as a
matter of civil law, and therefore there is no need to add the
religious rule.
Hillel Applebaum
|> be Chalav Yisrael?
The Tenuva milk bags are (ofcourse) all CALAV YISRAEL. I didn't found out,
yet, what is better in the blue-green bags from the reguler red-blue
bags, when I'll find out - I'll tell.
BUT in the chocolate they used to put milk-powder from CHU"L.
|> A more important question is when will they make a white chocolate bar
|> here that doesn't contain almond flavor?
there are 3 types of white chocolate here:
1. Reguler Elite (might have CHALV CHU"L powder) white cow - 100 gr. ~2.30 nis.
2. Elite 'Golf' bar (might too) - 75 gr , ~1.80 nis (?).
3. Vered Hagalil 'SHOKOLADA' bar (MEHDRIN = CHALV YISRAEL) - 100 gr. ~3.20 nis
I never felt the almond flaver in them. Maybe you talk about:
4. Elite mini-bar white chocolate with almonds - 50gr - ~1.20 nis.
|> /|/-\/-\ Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
|> |__/__/_/
|> |warren@
|> / nysernet.org
p.s. what about tzav girush, i mean harchaka ?
Isaac Balbin
Miller assumes he knows what sources I take seriously.
He does not.
The Brody herem is inapplicable.
As for Rav Shach, it isn't WHO says it but WHAT is said. Kindly Norman
step outbehind the historical comments of others and present the CASE.
Sources please. I will argue with you --- don't worry about that.
Warren Burstein
Is it something inherent in this medium, or are many of those who post here
sarcasm-impaired? What ever became of the good sense of humor we Jews are
supposed to have?
We gave it up for Lent.
--
/|/-\/-\ "If there really was a Jewish conspiracy to run the
|__/__/_/ world, my rabbi would have let me in on it by now.
|warren@ I contribute enough to the shule."
/ nysernet.org Saul Goodman